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wodan46
2008-05-21, 08:16 PM
People have been making rather odd remarks that Magic Missile is a must for a wizard, and that they would in fact use no other ability. This is odd because of the 3 out of the 5 level 1 at-will wizard abilities revealed so far, Magic Missile is probably the weakest so far.

The 3 currently known level 1 at will wizard abilities:
Magic Missile: Ranged 20, 2d4+Int force damage, counts as basic ranged attack
Ray of Frost: Ranged 10, 1d6+Int cold damage, target is slowed
Scorching Burst: Area Burst 1 within 10 squares, 1d6+Int fire damage

People have been saying that because Magic Missile deals 5+Modifier damage rather than 3.5+Modifier damage on average for the other 2, it is better. However, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a Controller. If it tries to go DPS blaster mage, it will be completely outperformed by the actual Arcane Striker, the Warlock. The Warlock's Eldritch Blast+Curse combo deals 8+Modifier damage on average instead.

In short, while spamming Magic Missile with a level 1 wizard can actually be done in 4e unlike 3.5e, it is still not using the Wizard properly. Now, lets take a look at the other 2 abilities and how they do fit the controller role.

Ray of Frost slows an enemy, reducing their movement to 2. Remember that the spell's range is 10. That means that against a charging Orc, whose movement is 8, you could instead slow it to a standstill and land multiple attacks, to say nothing of your allies. Reducing to 2 movement makes the enemy easy pickings for you and your allies. You could even shoot the enemy, retreat, shoot again, retreat, and so on.

Scorching Blast deals damage to a 9 square box. Except when fighting a boss, this ability will reliably deal more damage than Magic Missile will. When used against minions, it can insta-kill several enemies at once, as it only needs to damage, and it is thus not important that it deals 1.5 less damage on average than Magic Missile does.

The only thing going for Magic Missile is if you have a Warlord in your party granted you extra ranged attacks. Outside of that, it is simply not a useful ability for the wizard to have except as a backup, as Warlocks and Rangers are both far better at blasting enemies from a distance with ranged attacks.

Da King
2008-05-21, 08:22 PM
But... but... what will I cast at the darkness?

Matthew
2008-05-21, 08:23 PM
And so it begins... 4e optimisation and rules mastery discussion.

Aquillion
2008-05-21, 08:29 PM
This discussion would be easier if we knew the rules to 4th edition.

wodan46
2008-05-21, 08:30 PM
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/4e_PrRC_v2_6.pdf

and knowing is half the battle.

Siosilvar
2008-05-21, 08:33 PM
Also note that magic missile has twice the range of the others, so it's a more specialized spell for long-range combat vs. single targets. One is a debuff with some damage and the other is an area attack.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 08:38 PM
People have been making rather odd remarks that Magic Missile is a must for a wizard, and that they would in fact use no other ability.

Link to comments made in that vein?

Rutee
2008-05-21, 08:39 PM
Plus, it's Magic Missile. You can't not take it, or you're a communist and a subversive.

skywalker
2008-05-21, 08:42 PM
People have been making rather odd remarks that Magic Missile is a must for a wizard, and that they would in fact use no other ability. This is odd because of the 3 out of the 5 level 1 at-will wizard abilities revealed so far, Magic Missile is probably the weakest so far.

The 3 currently known level 1 at will wizard abilities:
Magic Missile: Ranged 20, 2d4+Int force damage, counts as basic ranged attack
Ray of Frost: Ranged 10, 1d6+Int cold damage, target is slowed
Scorching Burst: Area Burst 1 within 10 squares, 1d6+Int fire damage

People have been saying that because Magic Missile deals 5+Modifier damage rather than 3.5+Modifier damage on average for the other 2, it is better. However, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a Controller. If it tries to go DPS blaster mage, it will be completely outperformed by the actual Arcane Striker, the Warlock. The Warlock's Eldritch Blast+Curse combo deals 8+Modifier damage on average instead.There's no warlock in the preview adventure.



Ray of Frost slows an enemy, reducing their movement to 2. Remember that the spell's range is 10. That means that against a charging Orc, whose movement is 8, you could instead slow it to a standstill and land multiple attacks, to say nothing of your allies. Reducing to 2 movement makes the enemy easy pickings for you and your allies. You could even shoot the enemy, retreat, shoot again, retreat, and so on. This doesn't help much if the orc is already right next to your buddy. Also, nobody charges in this edition. Charging sucks.


Scorching Blast deals damage to a 9 square box. Except when fighting a boss, this ability will reliably deal more damage than Magic Missile will. When used against minions, it can insta-kill several enemies at once, as it only needs to damage, and it is thus not important that it deals 1.5 less damage on average than Magic Missile does.If you can catch several enemies in the blast, this is good. However, as soon as those minions get interspersed with your party, this power is useless.


The only thing going for Magic Missile is if you have a Warlord in your party granted you extra ranged attacks. Outside of that, it is simply not a useful ability for the wizard to have except as a backup, as Warlocks and Rangers are both far better at blasting enemies from a distance with ranged attacks.
And that it does more damage to an enemy who is already engaged with your defender and you, thusly, hope never moves again.

ahammer
2008-05-21, 08:46 PM
counts as basic ranged attack


this is a good reson to take it.. for attack of opp

xirr2000
2008-05-21, 08:49 PM
Plus, it's Magic Missile. You can't not take it, or you're a communist and a subversive.

What that guy said :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though each of the wizards abilities has a time and place. Maybe you dont expect to out damage the warlock or ranger, but you want to do more damage than you could with either of your other attacks. Plus they use different defenses so in addition it may be easier to hit someone with magic missile than with Ray of Frost, which is vs. Fort.

But seriously, not take magic missile? You almost had me there....:smallsmile:

wodan46
2008-05-21, 09:06 PM
While its true that Ray of Frost and Scorching Burst aren't useful against targets directly next to allies or more than 10 squares away, the majority of the time you will be able to do so.

When you can't, magic missile is still inferior to eldritch blast+curse, or bow+ranger's quarry, both of which can be triggered by a basic ranged attack.

Yes, my comments were direct to Skywalker's thread. I think that the scenario gives an unfair portrayal of the role of a wizard for 2 reasons:
1. The scenario in question does not have a prepared warlock or ranger, which are for more effective as ranged strikers than a magic missile throwing wizard.
2. Kobolds seem to be a prominent enemy in it, and kobolds are a nightmare for a controller, as they are constantly shifting this way and that, making it difficult to pin them down.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 09:22 PM
Its 20 range is also a factor in the favor of Magic Missile, that advantage over the 10 range RoF and SB doesn't seem to have been mentioned at all here. That can make a pretty decent difference in a lot of battles.

Patashu
2008-05-21, 09:31 PM
Hmmm. What is the rule for determining how many spells you know in 4e? Is it loose enough that you can get all the spells you'd want to use?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-21, 09:31 PM
Just be a human and take all three.

Farmer42
2008-05-21, 09:32 PM
I have to stress that YOU SHOULD NOT JUDGE 4E BY THIS DOCUMENT, it is assembled by community members from potentially
outdated preview material and some pretty clever guess-work by fans, but that is all. It gives impatient players a single place to see what
has been revealed (and what might be deduced), and it can give you an idea how it "might" play, but for goodness sake, wait until you get
your hands on the final official Core Rulebooks in June before you make any final conclusions.

Wodan, it helps if you read the source you're citing. Simply put, that document is not a valid source, by it's own admission on the first page. We haven't seen the official, final rules for most of your argument.

xirr2000
2008-05-21, 09:40 PM
Wodan, it helps if you read the source you're citing. Simply put, that document is not a valid source, by it's own admission on the first page. We haven't seen the official, final rules for most of your argument.

Meh, a lot of stuff out there has the warning you cited, but its still pretty well verified at this point.

wodan46
2008-05-21, 09:46 PM
There are 5 at will abilities available for level 1 wizards. You get to pick 3 of them if you are Human and 2 otherwise. So, in theory, you could pick all 3 of these if you are human, but we have to find out what the other 2 are first. I hope that they are something like Color Spray or Grease, but those have likely been converted into utility spells.

holywhippet
2008-05-21, 10:07 PM
If you can catch several enemies in the blast, this is good. However, as soon as those minions get interspersed with your party, this power is useless.


Unless you are chaotic evil.

ahammer
2008-05-21, 10:11 PM
Unless you are chaotic evil.

its just evil now remeber... mahaha

skywalker
2008-05-21, 10:17 PM
2. Kobolds seem to be a prominent enemy in it, and kobolds are a nightmare for a controller, as they are constantly shifting this way and that, making it difficult to pin them down.
Which is why you shouldn't put all your eggs in the "control" basket. Kobolds are a very common low level enemy in 3.5, I think they will continue to be in 4e. If the party gets into a situation like those in the preview adventure, what is a magic missile-less wizard going to do?

wodan46
2008-05-21, 10:26 PM
Scorching Burst carefully will still work. Most of the time, you can avoid hitting your allies even in close combat, and even then, they will probably dodge and not get hurt, while the kobold minions will die automatically.

However, why can't the party just retreat with defenders and leaders covering, in order to get the strikers and controllers out of the melee mess and bombard from a distance?

holywhippet
2008-05-21, 10:47 PM
However, why can't the party just retreat with defenders and leaders covering, in order to get the strikers and controllers out of the melee mess and bombard from a distance?

That would depend on your combat scenario. If you are out in the wide open with no cover then you have nowhere to retreat to. If the enemy have ranged attackers then you have the problem that if you can hit them, they can hit you.

Farmer42
2008-05-21, 11:28 PM
And not every situation calls for an AoE spell. Do you really want to be dropping an exploding ball of flame in a wooden structure, or a mine with important wooden braces? Or what if you enemy is immune to cold or fire?

Cuddly
2008-05-21, 11:53 PM
Your speculations are largely meaningless until the game's release. CHILL OUT GUYS.

TheOOB
2008-05-22, 12:00 AM
We can't yet judge on how useful the ability to count as a standard ranged attack is, depending on how the system works out, it could be enough to push MM over the edge, and considering that damage will scale out of control much slower then in 3e, that 2 extra damage will mean something (not to mention two dice generates a bell curve which is much more reliable then a single die). Also, non-elemental damage usually is(I'm assuming) preferable to elemental damage(as in 3e).

I figure it will all be up to personal preference and the concept you are running with. If I'm correct humans get an extra at-will ability so they won't have to make as tough of a choice.

Squash Monster
2008-05-22, 12:05 AM
Given a choice of two of those three, I'd probably take magic missile and ray of frost. I think an AOE blast is going to be more useful as an encounter power, as you can most likely get a much bigger and more powerful blast out of it. Of the three options given of debuffing, aoe, and easy damage, AOE is the only one that's likely possible to get out of the way all at once.

Mind you, I think magic missile to be quite lackluster. If any of the other powers count as a basic ranged attack I'm very likely to take those instead.

xirr2000
2008-05-22, 12:07 AM
Your speculations are largely meaningless until the game's release. CHILL OUT GUYS.

Clearly you are not famaliar with internet forums :) Our speculations are largely meaningless only AFTER the game's release. Until then it gives folks plenty of room to tell others they are uninformed compared to ourselves as there is no basis of comparison.....

Just kidding, a lot of the information out there has been handed out by WotC since the books have all actually been printed already which means the rules are out there if you want to look for them. Enough accurate information from the designers is out there to make provide info on how gameplay will be done, not mere speculations.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-22, 12:25 AM
It sound like the wizard spells are quite well balanced then. I take back my original statement on wizards always needing magic misile. I disgree with the title in the thread though. Magic missile would be the only spell the wizard can use wehn at a distance.

What at-will spells you take would depend on what you encoutner powers are. If you take magic misile, then you would want to take short range encounter powers. And if you take short range at-will powers, you may want melf's acid arrow to componsate.

Nohwl
2008-05-22, 12:29 AM
Plus, it's Magic Missile. You can't not take it, or you're a communist and a subversive.

what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

holywhippet
2008-05-22, 12:32 AM
what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

Are specialist mages in 4th Edition? I haven't heard anything either way.

Farmer42
2008-05-22, 12:55 AM
what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

Shadow Evoke it.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-22, 02:26 AM
what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

Neither "evocation" nor "banned schools" exist in 4E.

Charity
2008-05-22, 03:04 AM
Just be a human and take all three.

Humans once again, rock!


Plus, it's Magic Missile. You can't not take it, or you're a communist and a subversive.

You say this like these are bad things.


We can't yet judge on how useful the ability to count as a standard ranged attack is, depending on how the system works out, it could be enough to push MM over the edge, and considering that damage will scale out of control much slower then in 3e, that 2 extra damage will mean something (not to mention two dice generates a bell curve which is much more reliable then a single die). Also, non-elemental damage usually is(I'm assuming) preferable to elemental damage(as in 3e).

I figure it will all be up to personal preference and the concept you are running with. If I'm correct humans get an extra at-will ability so they won't have to make as tough of a choice.

I think without any form of basic attack you will rob yourself of opportunity attacks, either from opponants provoking or indeed warlords encouraging.

Though as a wizard I would usualy prefer to be out of the general melee, and I would expect the warlord to target strikers/defenders with any extra basic attack actions.

It will I'm sure not be as cut and dried as the original poster might indicate, but I think I do agree with the sentiment, extra range and rare opportunity attacks wouldn't sell me Magic missile.

Ashtar
2008-05-22, 03:10 AM
I'd take Magic Missile for it's Force effect. I mean, that's the closest you can get to untyped damage in magic. Unless 4e changed things on damage types.

Now, I'll go back to my cave and chant dark rituals until the books arrive...

Khanderas
2008-05-22, 03:18 AM
Wizards primary job is controlling. Fair enough. Once you have devided the charging dozen goblins with a wall in the tunnel you are all in and the remaining gobbos are busy with the wall of meat (your tankers) you want to help out with damage.
Before, unless you were going for a nova wizard who slept 10 times a day, you would whip out a crossbow and would fire into melee, often enough shooting your buddies in the back since your BAB was horrible. People didn't like that much, that was not the reason to play a wielder of magic.

Since nothing needs slowing (they are already stickyed to the melee) or areablasted (your buddies are in there too) single target, nevermiss, fire-freely-into-melee, double range, neverending bolts of unresistable element WOULD seem like a good way to go :smallcool:

And as mentioned. You are not a commie are you ?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 03:59 AM
what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

Only capitalist oppressors fail to ban evocation.

poleboy
2008-05-22, 04:17 AM
Is is just me, or are people seriously starting to approach D&D from a MMORPG point of view now?
I.e. don't bother trying to do more than one thing, just pick the most obvious skill for your class and spam the hell out of it? It makes me sick, honestly. I'll take a batman wizard over a fireball-spam bot any day.

Aquillion
2008-05-22, 04:33 AM
Just kidding, a lot of the information out there has been handed out by WotC since the books have all actually been printed already which means the rules are out there if you want to look for them. Enough accurate information from the designers is out there to make provide info on how gameplay will be done, not mere speculations.Uh, no. As far as I can tell, we don't even know the details of any of the monsters they were fighting. Let's be clear on that: As far as I can tell from that PDF, we do not know the stats, not even tentative ones, on a single 4th edition monster. (Even if you can turn up one or two they gave stats for, it's meaningless; we'd need to get a general sense of all monsters to even begin to evaluate skills, since that has a huge impact on what things like elements, saves, and status effects mean.) We know only a slight handful of tentative abilities, and can't even start to form the basic outline of a metagame based on how those abilities will interact with each other and the (basically unknown) monsters they will be used on.

Everything else in this thread is totally idle speculation next to those basic facts. We have no idea how common immunity to various damage types or slow effects are; we don't know if force effects will be particularly special or not. We don't know how good monsters will be at the various saves, how hard they will be to hit, or anything like that.

Is it good that Magic Missile is Int vs. Reflex while Ray of Frost is Int. vs. Fortitude? Who knows? Is the fact that Magic Missile Ranged 20 vs the other two's Range 10 a big deal? We'll have to play it and see when it comes out. Out of the cold, fire, and force tags, which one is best? What do they mean? How common are things that are immune to them? How useful is it to have Magic Missile count as a Range Basic Attack? In terms of strategies, how likely are creatures to 'bunch up'? How close are characters in the typical party going to have to get -- will they get hit, too, if you use a splash attack? How do level 2 spells influence these decisions -- are there obvious better options for when you want to slow something or do splash damage? What about first-level spells other than the three we've been shown? How does the overall damage done by the party to first-level monster HP interact with the damage done by the wizard -- is the difference between a Magic Missile and a Ray of Frost frequently enough to change whether you drop a first-level monster or not? Do the overall abilities of a typical party (and those of typical monsters) make long-ranged fighting a better or worse tactic than it was in 3rd edition? Are orcs likely to try and charge you in the first place?


While its true that Ray of Frost and Scorching Burst aren't useful against targets directly next to allies or more than 10 squares away, the majority of the time you will be able to do so.How do you know? You haven't played 4th edition at all.

Most of the people here don't even seem to know the basic rules that have been mentioned. Wizards can still change their spells every day. That means, yes, you can bring every type of spell with you. The people who reported Magic Missile being more useful constantly had all of them available -- and kept finding Magic Missile to be the best.

KIDS
2008-05-22, 04:37 AM
You have the point of it as in role, being optimal for your role and etc., but that's not how I view it. In my view, as long as all 3 options (MM, Ray and Burst) are solid and can be used to put up a fight (unlike tons of current spells, where Magic Missile is always the option), I don't care which does 1 more DPS on average.

Aquillion
2008-05-22, 04:57 AM
(Also, why not just post this in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80286), where someone who's played the game actually said they used nothing but Magic Missile? Granted, their DM seems to have gotten scorching burst wrong, but they still say they never used Ray of Frost. Why not ask why there?)

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-22, 05:15 AM
Is is just me, or are people seriously starting to approach D&D from a MMORPG point of view now?
I.e. don't bother trying to do more than one thing, just pick the most obvious skill for your class and spam the hell out of it? It makes me sick, honestly. I'll take a batman wizard over a fireball-spam bot any day.

But Wizards have been designed as controllers, not blasters according to WotC at least. What was the 'real' Wizard throughout 3.5 is now the wizard's design principle.

And dear God, will people stop bringing up MMORPGs!? Don't make me do the 'Auto Assault (despite being shut down), Tabula Rasa, etc aren't even similar to D&D, and are they MMORPGs? Yes!' rant.

Rutee
2008-05-22, 05:15 AM
what about when evocation is one of your banned schools?

Then we also add mutant and traitor to your list of crimes :smallbiggrin:

Ossian
2008-05-22, 05:19 AM
So, just or curiosity, is 4e still a roleplay game? Or is it sloping even more towards a videogame?

I seem to recall a day when you would pick up a class and a spell and a weapon because it fitted the way you wanted to roleplay. When you would use a monk because "who cares about damage output, I wanna do martial arts".

I mean, seriously, is that so difficult to focus on roleplay? To forget for a second about optimization and just have fun?

Ah, good old days of yore...

Sorry for the rant, but I only see "this sucks and this rocks" when talking about D&D, and "this is broken" and "this is useless unless monster X is not in square Y and you don`t have tole Z filled by class K in your party". A big algorithm, not a game. Sad.
Using a shield yelds a 0,5684588 lower damage output and a 1,235458522 better defense output.

Now, a whole 3d on why a wiz should not chose a certain spell.


O.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 05:21 AM
So, just or curiosity, is 4e still a roleplaz game? Or is it sloping even more towards a videogame?
I seem to recall a day when you would pick up a class and a spell and a weapon because it fitted the way you wanted to roleplay. Ah, good old days of yore...

...you're right. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY someone could roleplay a character, with these rules. It says right there, "YOU MUST PICK THE POWER YOU THINK IS MOST POWERFUL, FORGET ABOUT FITTING CHARACTER ABILITIES TO CONCEPT". And it's not like greater balance between character options makes it even easier to play whatever you feel like, since there isn't the chance that you'll wind up with a useless character!

(??? what???)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 05:25 AM
So, just or curiosity, is 4e still a roleplay game? Or is it sloping even more towards a videogame?

I seem to recall a day when you would pick up a class and a spell and a weapon because it fitted the way you wanted to roleplay. When you would use a monk because "who cares about damage output, I wanna do martial arts".

I mean, seriously, is that so difficult to focus on roleplay? To forget for a second about optimization and just have fun?

Ah, good old days of yore...

Sorry for the rant, but I only see "this sucks and this rocks" when talking about D&D, and "this is broken" and "this is useless unless monster X is not in square Y and you don`t have tole Z filled by class K in your party". A big algorithm, not a game. Sad.
Using a shield yelds a 0,5684588 lower damage output and a 1,235458522 better defense output.

Now, a whole 3d on why a wiz should not chose a certain spell.


O.

Please send me your D&D-solving algorithm. I wants it.

Kish
2008-05-22, 05:25 AM
Look at the thread title, Reel.

"Don't take Magic Missile, because Ray of Frost is a more powerful choice."

...Er, although, upon reflection, while Ossian's complaint would be valid directed at optimization threads, it's not valid directed at 4ed. The Internet has been swimming in roleplay-reasons-need-not-apply optimization arguments since long, long before 4ed was ever proposed.

Ossian
2008-05-22, 05:30 AM
Please send me your D&D-solving algorithm. I wants it.

:smallwink: I wish I had one, mate. I really do. Point is, in my party we have a MONK who is the leader, a duskbale a Ftr/rog and a Bard/wiz, all below level 8, and we have fun to no end, and we save the world every other month. And we pick sword and board and care not about how better greatswords are, and pick up the (few) daily spells according to what the character style is, and basically run the checklist compiled by the internet people on how to "optimize" or "have a character which is not "useless"" and break every single rule and advice in it from top to bottom.

You know, less book keeping, less hassle for the DM, more fun for everyone. Just come up with a concept, and stat it accordingly. The rules won´t allow to have a cool concept AND optimized stats? None of my players has lost a night of sleep on that...

EDIT: I see the 3d is quite active, so apologies i the answers are a it off-sync. I know there has to be room for optim. 3d on the internet just like for roleplay. It was just a rant, as I see there seem to be quite few people ho actually still care about roleply (or, perhaps, they are legion and just don`t bother posting here).

O.

Rutee
2008-05-22, 05:32 AM
...Er, although, upon reflection, while Ossian's complaint would be valid directed at optimization threads, it's not valid directed at 4ed. The Internet has been swimming in roleplay-reasons-need-not-apply optimization arguments since long, long before 4ed was ever proposed.

And for logical reasons, people were pondering character concept long before optimization with 4e.

Charity
2008-05-22, 05:43 AM
A thread about 4e, it must be almost ZOMGMorepig! o'clock... Oh no I'm late.


(Also, why not just post this in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80286), where someone who's played the game actually said they used nothing but Magic Missile? Granted, their DM seems to have gotten scorching burst wrong, but they still say they never used Ray of Frost. Why not ask why there?)
Aquillon, as it says in that thread that they were playing it wrong I think the opinions of those players might be somewhat less useful to canvass than you might have hoped.

We are capable of using the information provided thus far to make a relatively informed decision as to the relative usefulness of these three spells... some of us have played a few similar games in the past.

Falkus
2008-05-22, 05:45 AM
You know, less book keeping, less hassle for the DM, more fun for everyone. Just come up with a concept, and stat it accordingly. The rules won´t allow to have a cool concept AND optimized stats? None of my players has lost a night of sleep on that...

Yes, yes, yes, we've heard it all before. You can't possibly be roleplaying if you try to optimize your character. It's a tired old argument, and we're all sick of hearing it.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 05:51 AM
Look at the thread title, Reel.

"Don't take Magic Missile, because Ray of Frost is a more powerful choice."

...Er, although, upon reflection, while Ossian's complaint would be valid directed at optimization threads, it's not valid directed at 4ed. The Internet has been swimming in roleplay-reasons-need-not-apply optimization arguments since long, long before 4ed was ever proposed.

Exactly. It's not like it's impossible to munch out 2E characters, either.

Furthermore, it's the same old worn-out assumption. Frankly, I bet I'm no worse a roleplayer than whatsisbucket. This isn't despite my optimization skill, it's unrelated to it.

Besides which, my god! Character choice? Magic Missile vs. Ray of Frost is a character choice? There's a thousand reasons why any wizard would pick one or the other, and most of them are arbitrary, and equally valid.

Indon
2008-05-22, 07:31 AM
It says right there, "YOU MUST PICK THE POWER YOU THINK IS MOST POWERFUL, FORGET ABOUT FITTING CHARACTER ABILITIES TO CONCEPT".

Well, duh. After all, every character is interested in survival and winning, and all the smart ones (like very wizard ever) are going to know all the best options they can take.

It's really very simple.

More amusing, to me, is the prospect that people will be whining about how underpowered the Wizard is, if their toolbox consists solely of highly conditional abilities mixed with clearly inferior attacks.

Griffin131
2008-05-22, 07:46 AM
You know, less book keeping, less hassle for the DM, more fun for everyone. Just come up with a concept, and stat it accordingly. The rules won´t allow to have a cool concept AND optimized stats? None of my players has lost a night of sleep on that...
I'm sorry, but where do the rules stop you from having a cool concept and optimized stats? I'm not aware of that, can you tell me where I missed reading it? Because I've managed to do both quite often... it'll make me sad if I have to do one or the other.

Ossian
2008-05-22, 08:08 AM
I'm sorry, but where do the rules stop you from having a cool concept and optimized stats? I'm not aware of that, can you tell me where I missed reading it? Because I've managed to do both quite often... it'll make me sad if I have to do one or the other.


They really don`t. And you did not miss reading any section on "opposing optimization if you roleplay decently". Now, let me clear up one thing.
I have to aknowledge that my first post was a bit
a) off topic (very little to do with MM as opposed to cone of frost)
b) worded incorrectly or unclearly
c) written yelding to emotions (to my partial defense)

This said, something just stirred in me and made me whine in a very general way. That something just reacted on the overwhelming presence of 20 pages long topics on how monks suck, on how "I have to build a level 20/20 gestalt", on "do I chose TWF or greatsword" or on "in every party there are those roles and this kind of wizard is going to 0.1% suboptimal".
That level advancement through adventures seems to be long lst, that apparently no campaign starts at level 1, that from the creation of the character you have already allocated all feat slots and skill points so as not to miss anything etc...etc...basically turning D&D innto Diablo 4.

I found it a bit sad that any person could spend more than a minute of his life getting into elaborate calculations to pick up the best possible spell at level 1. I found it a bit depressing that, while I am kept away from the table for work and travel, others who can play actually spend so much energy on such trivial matters. However, it is just as sad that I have spent so much time answering, which proves the famous comic image of the guy who won´t go to bed because "It is important! Someone is wrong on the internet".

What saddens me is possibly not the abundance of such threads but the total lack of other places to discuss roleplay, interpretation, plotlines, character interaction and so on (and no, I am not a professor at the RADA, just an old 2nd ed. player who recently moved to 3.5).

But, as wiser and better men than me said: "It's a tired old argument, and", speaking on behalf of the whole community I am sure, "we're all sick of hearing it". So, after apologizing for the intrusion, I am quietly retiring to my little fantasy world where optimization is just a minor concern, and all it does is to serve roleplay while not being detached from it altogether.

Have fun.

O.

ImperiousLeader
2008-05-22, 08:22 AM
Ray of Frost also targets Fort instead of Ref. This may or may not be an advantage, depending on the targets. You may have trouble getting this attack to hit the foes you'd most want to slow, the melee monsters, which would likely have high STR or CON. Currently, I can see valid arguments for all three at-wills, can't wait to see the other two.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 08:23 AM
I hope one is Shocking Grasp. I love that spell in 3e.

Swooper
2008-05-22, 09:51 AM
Plus, it's Magic Missile. You can't not take it, or you're a communist and a subversive.
Confirmed - I'm both, and I wouldn't take it. :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-05-22, 09:53 AM
Confirmed - I'm both, and I wouldn't take it. :smallbiggrin:

*Shines a flashlight in your eyes* Friend Computer would be interested in your activities, Citizen.

Tengu
2008-05-22, 09:58 AM
On an unrelated note, I hope that you will be able to cast spells without wands in 4E as a wizard. Casting spells with your hands or a long staff (with a knob on the end) is much more dignified than pulling a Harry Potter.

EvilElitest
2008-05-22, 10:01 AM
So, just or curiosity, is 4e still a roleplay game? Or is it sloping even more towards a videogame?

I seem to recall a day when you would pick up a class and a spell and a weapon because it fitted the way you wanted to roleplay. When you would use a monk because "who cares about damage output, I wanna do martial arts".

I mean, seriously, is that so difficult to focus on roleplay? To forget for a second about optimization and just have fun?

Ah, good old days of yore...

Of course, it is like a video game/bad action movie style. I don't think the Magic Missil makes any difference but there are a lot of elements, and i mean a lot htat makes that comparison. I don't think MM is one of them however

Also in this communist capitalist world, what makes you a fascist?
from
EE

wodan46
2008-05-22, 10:52 AM
Any wizard would be equally likely to learn any of the spells mentioned, given that they are basic elemental blast type stuff. A wizard who is learning these spells with the intention to use them in combat is going to pick ones that they find useful, and wizards, being controllers by nature, are going to want to control the battlefield with AOE attacks and slows, rather than going pew pew each turn for 2d4+Int damage.

That said, people have been always playing D&D for many reasons. Some PREFER it as a hack n slash full of level specific encounters and careful character builds. Some PREFER it as an epic Campaign full of encounters that are as dangerous as would be appropriate for the layout of the plot, and with characters roleplaying with no planning of how to level their characters. Most probably prefer something inbetween those 2 extremes.

Frankly, D&D is a combat system first and a roleplaying system second, based on the amount of pages given for each in the core rulebooks. You can't dismiss the optimizers as not playing D&D right, the core rulebooks are designed with the full intention that some people will want to play it that way.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-22, 12:07 PM
I hope one is Shocking Grasp. I love that spell in 3e.

If not I have invented it (till we see the official version):

Shocking Grasp (standard; at-will) Lightning:
Melee, + Int vs. Fort, 1d10 + Int Lightning damage and target dazed until end next turn.

As well as a Poison attack (since Wizard will likely eat the Wu Jen)

Kiss of the Toad (standard; at-will) Poison:
Melee, + Int vs. Fort, 1d6 + Int Poison damage and ongoing damage 5 poison (save end).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 12:10 PM
That's not bad... not bad at all. Have shocking grasp be melee only... and kiss of the toad be range, maybe?

Triaxx
2008-05-22, 12:37 PM
Yet, there are situations where it could be useful, I haven't played 4e, but if it's possible to interrupt casting as it is in 3.x, then MM is fantastic. I can disrupt an enemy preparing a killing spell, or fire back at a target who's aiming at me with a crossbow. I already use this version's MM to hit archers trying to shoot me.

And I still don't see anything that calls these Spells. So there very well could be spells in addition to these at-will powers. Fireball as a spell? Useful, but not as good as others. Fireball as an at-will? Much more useful.

Draz74
2008-05-22, 12:39 PM
Uh, no. As far as I can tell, we don't even know the details of any of the monsters they were fighting. Let's be clear on that: As far as I can tell from that PDF, we do not know the stats, not even tentative ones, on a single 4th edition monster. (Even if you can turn up one or two they gave stats for, it's meaningless; we'd need to get a general sense of all monsters to even begin to evaluate skills, since that has a huge impact on what things like elements, saves, and status effects mean.) We know only a slight handful of tentative abilities, and can't even start to form the basic outline of a metagame based on how those abilities will interact with each other and the (basically unknown) monsters they will be used on.

Everything else in this thread is totally idle speculation next to those basic facts. We have no idea how common immunity to various damage types or slow effects are; we don't know if force effects will be particularly special or not. We don't know how good monsters will be at the various saves, how hard they will be to hit, or anything like that.

Is it good that Magic Missile is Int vs. Reflex while Ray of Frost is Int. vs. Fortitude? Who knows? Is the fact that Magic Missile Ranged 20 vs the other two's Range 10 a big deal? We'll have to play it and see when it comes out. Out of the cold, fire, and force tags, which one is best? What do they mean? How common are things that are immune to them? How useful is it to have Magic Missile count as a Range Basic Attack? In terms of strategies, how likely are creatures to 'bunch up'? How close are characters in the typical party going to have to get -- will they get hit, too, if you use a splash attack? How do level 2 spells influence these decisions -- are there obvious better options for when you want to slow something or do splash damage? What about first-level spells other than the three we've been shown? How does the overall damage done by the party to first-level monster HP interact with the damage done by the wizard -- is the difference between a Magic Missile and a Ray of Frost frequently enough to change whether you drop a first-level monster or not? Do the overall abilities of a typical party (and those of typical monsters) make long-ranged fighting a better or worse tactic than it was in 3rd edition? Are orcs likely to try and charge you in the first place?

How do you know? You haven't played 4th edition at all.

Most of the people here don't even seem to know the basic rules that have been mentioned. Wizards can still change their spells every day. That means, yes, you can bring every type of spell with you. The people who reported Magic Missile being more useful constantly had all of them available -- and kept finding Magic Missile to be the best.

Um. You haven't been following 4e previews very carefully, have you?

Like, the recent Monday/Wednesday/Friday excerpts, which gave us full stat blocks for all orcs, a couple archons, a few giants, tons of devil minions and a few upper-level devils, and a handful of other monsters? And a lot of rules of the game, to boot (please tell me you at least read the complete Miniatures Skirmish Rules PDF?).

Or the D&D Experience reports, where people actually played the game (to have an idea about how crowded battles will often be, for example), and in addition got access to complete stats for like 30+ other monsters (dragons, kobolds, and more)?

We can deduce quite a lot. Every single monster we've seen has higher AC than Fort/Ref/Will, so I think it's pretty safe to say that it's an advantage for a spell to target Fort rather than AC.

How do you know that guy hasn't played 4e at all? He could have at D&D XP, or played Keep on the Shadowfell recently, or be friends with a designer who played it with his group under NDA's.

Sure, we might hit some surprises when we see the full rules, which will make us reverse some conclusions we reach here. To use your example, it's entirely possible (though highly unlikely with 4e's simplified rules) that there are whole packs of creatures and monsters (constructs?) that are immune to the Slowed condition. But that doesn't change the fact that we do already know a LOT about 4e.

Oh, and btw, Wizards can only change out their Daily Spells. So the choice between Scorching Burst, Ray of Frost, Magic Missile, and the other two mysterious choices will be meaningful.

Artanis
2008-05-22, 01:05 PM
There's something that literally everybody in this thread seems to be forgetting:

WotC is designing classes to NOT BE TERRIBLE AT OTHER ROLES.

The Wizard is a Controller? Fine, it's good at controlling, but unlike in 3e, classes are (supposed to) be able to do other things, especially when said "other things" involve hurting stuff. If your party has no dedicated Striker, your Controllers, Leaders, and Defenders can make up the slack - as shocking and heretical as that may seem - thanks to abilities like Magic Missile, which are actually capable of hurting stuff.

So when your Striker gets put down by a BBEG, you're going to be d***ed glad your Wizard decided to take Magic Missile instead of it just plinking it for d***ed little damage.


Oh, and the "2 points of damage isn't that much" misconception? If your Wizard has 18 INT, that's a difference between 7.5 and 9, which is a 20% increase. 20% ain't exactly small.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-22, 01:09 PM
Scorching Burst: Area Burst 1 within 10 squares, 1d6+Int fire damage

...

Scorching Blast deals damage to a 9 square box. Except when fighting a boss, this ability will reliably deal more damage than Magic Missile will. When used against minions, it can insta-kill several enemies at once, as it only needs to damage, and it is thus not important that it deals 1.5 less damage on average than Magic Missile does.


If targeting of area spells works the same way as it did in 3.5 Scorching Burst will only affect 4 squares, since you have to target a grid intersection.

This post has been brought to you with several disclaimers. I have not played 4E and I have not seen the rules so it is possible that the rules for targeting spells have been altered between editions leaving this post quite without a purpose other than informing me of the change in the rebuttal.
I must admit that I have not read this thread very closely either, so this might already have been brought up leaving this post as nothing more than an embarrassment. :smallredface:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 01:10 PM
A burst effect goes out a number of squares from the target equal to its "burst rating" And target is (generally) clarified as one creature or object.

So burst 1 hits the target and all 8 squares adjacent to it.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-22, 01:43 PM
Bla bla bla, evocation sucks, damage dealing is weak, we've been throught it a lot these past 15 years.
Magic missile is just, as it was pointed out, a basic attack. It's not a "ZONG! Wizard controlling the battlefield and being Batman!" thing. It's just a simple attack when you need to hit something far, and don't want to waste higher level spells.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 01:45 PM
Burst 1 hits 9 squares, according to the current info on 4th edition.

As said by others, knowledge known so far includes people who've playtested 4th edition, people who've gotten their hands on 4th edition rulebooks, and official excerpts from 4th edition rulebooks. Despite the guide's disclaimer, most of its information can be traced to valid sources, rather than mere rumors.

My main point in this topic is that Magic Missile is a good backup ability, not a primary ability, and that using it every round is not a good use for the Wizard.

Ray of Frost effectively disables melee enemies and is more likely to hit than Magic Missile.

Scorching Burst can hit multiple enemies, and is thus highly effective in eliminating minions, more so than Magic Missile is.

A controller's role is to disable enemies (ray of frost) or do crowd control (scorching burst), dealing large amounts of damage (magic missile) is a backup for a controller, and while useful to have, should be dropped first in favor of the other 2 abilities, which the controller is better at than other roles are.

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 02:24 PM
If not I have invented it (till we see the official version):

Shocking Grasp (standard; at-will) Lightning:
Melee, + Int vs. Fort, 1d10 + Int Lightning damage and target dazed until end next turn.

As well as a Poison attack (since Wizard will likely eat the Wu Jen)

Kiss of the Toad (standard; at-will) Poison:
Melee, + Int vs. Fort, 1d6 + Int Poison damage and ongoing damage 5 poison (save end).Your shocking grasp kind of stands out as a fair bit more powerful than any other at will. Dazed + d10 damage is along the lines of won't ever use anything else. If you're dazed you grant combat advantage and lose two actions, and can't flank. Ray of cold only does slowed, even if it is at range.

Immobilized might be more balanced than dazed, but I'd still reign in the damage a bit, maybe d8. Immobilized is a harsher than slowed, but it's not a throwback to save or die. d10, while more random, is still more average damage than MM.

The poison is kind of strong, but doesn't seem too bad. Ongoing 5 from an at will does seem a little strong, though. It's a minimum of 1d6 + int + 5 damage, but immune: poison and disease doesn't seem that rare. It's more damage than other at wills, but it's hard to power it without knowing how situational it is. I think I'd prefer it if it were in line with the use of alchemical fire I know about, which has ongoing 2 fire in addition to the delivery damage, up the delivery damage to something similar to MM, 2d4 + Int.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-22, 02:30 PM
Your shocking grasp kind of stands out as a fair bit more powerful than any other at will. Dazed + d10 damage is along the lines of won't ever use anything else. If you're dazed you grant combat advantage and lose two actions, and can't flank. Ray of cold only does slowed, even if it is at range.


Dazes no longer steals actions.
It just negates flanking/help flanking. Negate Attack of opportunities / immediate actions.

You still have your entire turn of actions. The idea was in tune with 3rd level Orb spells: damage + effect (Ray of Frost) or scaling damage (ala magic missile).
Should I make it Daze (save end) instead?



The poison is kind of strong, but doesn't seem too bad. Ongoing 5 from an at will does seem a little strong, though. It's a minimum of 1d6 + int + 5 damage, but immune: poison and disease doesn't seem that rare. It's more damage than other at wills, but it's hard to power it without knowing how situational it is. I think I'd prefer it if it were in line with the use of alchemical fire I know about, which has ongoing 2 fire in addition to the delivery damage, up the delivery damage to something similar to MM, 2d4 + Int.
But remember, this is a melee touch, alchemy fire is a range attack.

Remember Magic Missile scales with level:
2d4 Heroic, 2d6 paragon, and than 2d8 Epic.

That is a important distinction. Wizard aren't really big on being in your face.

1st Round: It is a minimum of 1d6 + Int:
Next round: Save or 5 damage.

It isn't 1d6 + Int +5 because the save negates it.

I'll consider 2 save end instead of 5 save end (since it is is at will).
I'll think about it. But Kiss of the Toad (from the Wu Jen) originally did 1d6 Con and 1d6 Con later. So I figured that it is best emulated by this stat up.

Indon
2008-05-22, 02:47 PM
WotC is designing classes to NOT BE TERRIBLE AT OTHER ROLES.

It doesn't matter how mediocre the Wizard class is at everything, if its' primary role of controlling isn't good to begin with, now does it?

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 02:58 PM
Dazes no longer steals actions.
It just negates flanking/help flanking. Negate Attack of opportunities / immediate actions.

You still have your entire turn of actions. The idea was in tune with 3rd level Orb spells: damage + effect (Ray of Frost) or scaling damage (ala magic missile).
Should I make it Daze (save end) instead?


But remember, this is a melee touch, alchemy fire is a range attack.

Remember Magic Missile scales with level:
2d4 Heroic, 2d6 paragon, and than 2d8 Epic.

That is a important distinction. Wizard aren't really big on being in your face.

1st Round: It is a minimum of 1d6 + Int:
Next round: Save or 5 damage.

It isn't 1d6 + Int +5 because the save negates it.

I'll consider 2 save end instead of 5 save end (since it is is at will).
I'll think about it. But Kiss of the Toad (from the Wu Jen) originally did 1d6 Con and 1d6 Con later. So I figured that it is best emulated by this stat up.I like both powers in a thematic sense; this is as much a thought exercise for me as anything.

Two points, you take ongoing damage at the start of your turn and make saves at the end. You do take the 5 points of damage at least once, minimum, due to order of effects.

Second, at least as far as KotSF is concerned, and all I have to go on is the DM section of that module for the full effect of conditions: Dazed lets you only take one action. I'll type the entry out.

Dazed
* You grant combat advantage.
* You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can always take free actions). You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
* You can't flank an enemy.

If it didn't steal the actions it wouldn't be so bad, but at least as far as the module in front of me it's still doing that. The only difference between dazed and stunned is that stunned took the last action away, too.

Because of order of actions, too, Dazed (save ends) is stronger, because it is still a minimum of one round, but generally has a 45% chance of lasting even longer.

Maybe weakened? That would make for a neat ability. Weakened means you do half damage on attacks with ongoing damage not affected. Weakened (save ends)? I think it's the granting of combat advantage that really worries me.

It's a tough process with the limited examples we have.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-22, 03:25 PM
A burst effect goes out a number of squares from the target equal to its "burst rating" And target is (generally) clarified as one creature or object.

So burst 1 hits the target and all 8 squares adjacent to it.

Sorry, but I find it rather unlikely that "all" area spells in 4th edition will have to target creatures or objects rather than areas.


Burst 1 hits 9 squares, according to the current info on 4th edition.


Is it possible to get a reference, so I could freshen up on the rules for targeting spells in 4th edition?

It is possible that the targeting has been completely redone along with the diagonal movement cost, but I would like to have some kind of hard confirmation.

ahammer
2008-05-22, 03:30 PM
Two points, you take ongoing damage at the start of your turn and make saves at the end. You do take the 5 points of damage at least once, minimum, due to order of effects.


not 100% true but it is likly to



Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1
Sacred light shines from above, searing a single enemy with its radiance while at the same time aiding an ally with its beneficent power.
At-Will * Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Wis vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Wis radiant damage, and one ally you can see chooses either to gain 2 temporary hit points or to make a saving throw.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 03:39 PM
Sorry, but I find it rather unlikely that "all" area spells in 4th edition will have to target creatures or objects rather than areas.



Is it possible to get a reference, so I could freshen up on the rules for targeting spells in 4th edition?

It is possible that the targeting has been completely redone along with the diagonal movement cost, but I would like to have some kind of hard confirmation.

From the KoS DM Guide:



Areas of Effect For powers that create an area of effect, a creature selects an origin square as the target and creates an effect from that sapce. A creature must be able to target the origin square in order to create an area of effect from it.
Whenever a creature uses a power with an area of effect, it makes a single damage roll but a separate attack roll for each affected creature. It's easiest to go in that order, especially if the power deals half damage on a miss. Roll and add up the damage, then make attack rolls one by one. (If an attack is a critical hit, determine that damage separately).
Barrier: A barrier runs along the edge of a specified number of squares. A barrier must cross at least one edge of the origin square.
Blast: A blast fills an area adjacent to the caster that is a specified number of squares on a side. For example, a blast 3 effects a 3 square by 3 square area adjacent to the caster. The blast must be adjacent to its origin square, which is a square in the caster's space. The origin square is not affected by the blast. A blast only affects a target if the target is in the blast area and if there is line of effect from the origin square to the target.
Burst: A burst starts in a target square and extends in all direction toa specified number of squares from the target square. A burst is centered on the origin square. Unless a power description notes otherwise, a burst does not affect its creator.

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 03:42 PM
meh, beaten. on AoE targeting.


no 100% true but it is likly do to
Yes, and you can use a standard action and take a healing check (dc +15) to allow a target an immediate saving throw with a +2 bonus.

And I do think that is a nifty cleric power.

Still, one at will can't outshine the rest. With the power as written, every single rogue would take the multiclassing feat into mage and take it as an encounter power. OK, boom, you give me combat advantage, I spend an action point and remove your kidneys with my belt sander.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-22, 03:47 PM
From the KoS DM Guide:

Thank you Sam. :smallsmile:

I think this is a very sensible change.
I think the change between targeting grid intersections and squares/creatures in 3.5 was unnecessary and probably confusing for some.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-22, 05:18 PM
*Shines a flashlight in your eyes* Friend Computer would be interested in your activities, Citizen.

Sorry citizen, this thread is above your security clearance.

You know why Paranoia is the bestest RPG evar? Because in Paranoia, you can't hold this discussion because knowledge of the rules is treason. :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2008-05-22, 05:23 PM
I like both powers in a thematic sense; this is as much a thought exercise for me as anything.

Two points, you take ongoing damage at the start of your turn and make saves at the end. You do take the 5 points of damage at least once, minimum, due to order of effects.

Second, at least as far as KotSF is concerned, and all I have to go on is the DM section of that module for the full effect of conditions: Dazed lets you only take one action. I'll type the entry out.

Dazed
* You grant combat advantage.
* You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can always take free actions). You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
* You can't flank an enemy.

Maybe weakened? That would make for a neat ability. Weakened means you do half damage on attacks with ongoing damage not affected. Weakened (save ends)? I think it's the granting of combat advantage that really worries me.

It's a tough process with the limited examples we have.

Huh, there changed it since I saw it as ENWorld Demo compiling.
Weakened does sound better: guess we will know once we see example powers in PHB.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 05:30 PM
for future reference, the first below link covers just about everything known so far, 95% of which is derived from official sources and playtesters, and the second of which covers many monster stat blocks known so far, all from official sources:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/4e_PrRC_v2_6.pdf

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/Monsters%20&%20More%20(4th%20Edition).pdf

read, enjoy, learn. Diagrams for the burst stuff is on page 60 or 64 of the first PDF depending on how you read it.

Sholos
2008-05-22, 05:52 PM
I believe what Ossian was railing against was the trend to care more about optimization than roleplaying and the willingness to sacrifice character for power. For example, how many people run wizards that have specialized in Evocation and banned Conjuration and Illusion? Now, how many people would love to tell a person who ran such a wizard that he's an idiot, doesn't know a thing about wizards, and is "DOING IT WRONG!"? When people start telling other people that they're playing a class wrong because it's not optimized, it tends to get on the nerves of those who don't care about optimization.

On that note, I'd say that whichever spells fit the flavor of the character better should be the ones selected by the player. Sure, there might be some spells (or powers or whatever) that are completely useless and that no one in their right mind would take, but the majority of the stuff can be used in some way or another.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 05:59 PM
I believe what Ossian was railing against was the trend to care more about optimization than roleplaying and the willingness to sacrifice character for power. For example, how many people run wizards that have specialized in Evocation and banned Conjuration and Illusion? Now, how many people would love to tell a person who ran such a wizard that he's an idiot, doesn't know a thing about wizards, and is "DOING IT WRONG!"? When people start telling other people that they're playing a class wrong because it's not optimized, it tends to get on the nerves of those who don't care about optimization.
There's a difference between "not optimized" and "hurting the party". Not being able to fill vital parts of your role... like teleporting the party... is more the latter than the farmer.

Frankly, if the cleric decided to take something that'd stop him from casting Heal, I wouldn't be too happy either.

Sholos
2008-05-22, 06:11 PM
There's a difference between "not optimized" and "hurting the party". Not being able to fill vital parts of your role... like teleporting the party... is more the latter than the farmer.

Frankly, if the cleric decided to take something that'd stop him from casting Heal, I wouldn't be too happy either.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

Now, why does the wizard have to be the teleporter? Maybe the Rogue has lots of UMD ranks and can do it. Heck, here's a wild thought. Maybe the group doesn't need to teleport! Yeah, crazy, I know.

Indon
2008-05-22, 06:11 PM
There's a difference between "not optimized" and "hurting the party". Not being able to fill vital parts of your role... like teleporting the party... is more the latter than the farmer.

So, what, if nobody plays a Wizard and so nobody can teleport the party, is everyone hurting the group?

wodan46
2008-05-22, 06:19 PM
Dazed may be this:
* Enemies have combat advantage against you (also known as Sneak Attack time)
* You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions
* You can't flank an enemy or help allies flank

However, all that is known for sure is that both Dazed and Stunned are present in 4e, and Dazed is weaker. The rest is acknowledge to be based on hearsay.

Draz74
2008-05-22, 06:32 PM
There's a difference between "not optimized" and "hurting the party". Not being able to fill vital parts of your role... like teleporting the party... is more the latter than the farmer.

My Travel Domain Clerics, Psions, Elocator skill monkeys, and Freedom Mantle Ardents are snickering in the background ... like you need a Wizard (or Sorc for that matter) to get teleportation. :smallwink:


Dazed may be this:
* Enemies have combat advantage against you (also known as Sneak Attack time)
* You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions
* You can't flank an enemy or help allies flank

However, all that is known for sure is that both Dazed and Stunned are present in 4e, and Dazed is weaker. The rest is acknowledge to be based on hearsay.

Um, the description of Dazed above allegedly comes out of the "comprehensive quick start rules" in Keep on the Shadowfell. That's pretty not-hearsay (unless the poster is outright lying about what his document says).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 06:38 PM
I'll describe them all later (its bathtime for my daughter)...

But here are all the conditions listed in the quick start DM guide

Blinded, Dazed, Deafened, Dominated, Dying, Helpless, Immobilized, Marked, Petrified, Prone, Restrained, Slowed, Stunned, Surprised, Unconscious and Weakened.

Atmbn
2008-05-22, 06:42 PM
:xykon: What if you fight a ghost then. :xykon:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 06:58 PM
Conditions
Powers, monsters, traps and the environment can all cause conditions. A condition imposes a penalty, a vulnerability, a hindrance, or a combination of effects. The effect that imposes a condition describes how long that condition lasts.

Blinded
-You grant combat advantage
-You can't see any target (your targets have total concealment).
-You take a -10 to perception checks
-You can't flank an enemy

Dazed
-You grant combat advantage
-You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
-You can't flank an enemy

Deafened
-You can't hear anything
-You take a -10 to perception checks

Dominated
-You're dazed
-The dominating creature chooses your one action. The only powers it can make you use are at-will powers

Dying
-You're unconscious
-You're at 0 or negative hit points
-You make a death saving throw every round

Helpless
-You grant combat advantage
Note: Usually you're helpless because you're unconscious

Immobilized
-You can't move from your space, although you can teleport and can be forced to move by a pull, a push or a slide

Marked
-You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls if your attack doesn't include the creature that marked you

Petrified
-You have been turned to stone
-You can't take actions
-You gain resist 20 to all damage
-You are unaware of your surroundings
-You don't age

Prone
-You grant combat advantage to enemies making melee attacks against you
-You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged attacks form nonadjacent enemies
-You're lying on the ground. (If you're flying, you safely descent a distance equal to your fly speed. If you don't reach the ground, you fall.)
-You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls

Restrained
-You grant combat advantage
-You're immobilized
-You can't be forced to move by a pull, a push, or a slide
-You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls

Slowed
-Your speed becoms 2. This speed applies to all your movement modes, but it does not apply to teleportation or to a pull, a push or a slide. You can't increase your speed above 2, and your speed doesn't increase if it was lower than 2. If you're slowed hwile moving, stop miving if you have already moved 2 or more squares.

Stunned
-You grant combat advantage
-You can't take actions
-You can't flank an enemy

Suprised
-You grant combat advantage
-You can't take actions, other than free actions
-You can't flank an enemy

Unconscious
-You're helpless
-You take a -5 penalty to all defenses
-You can't take actions
-You fall prone, if possible
-You can't flank an enemy

Weakened
-Your attacks deal half damage. Ongoing damage you deal is not affected.

Triaxx
2008-05-22, 08:05 PM
Oh BROTHER. 'You're hurting the party', is usually a good sign someone is way too into it. If I'm hurting the party, you're hurting my fun.

My wizard banned Conjuration and Illusion? Boo hoo. If I'm RPing I don't need them anyway. If I'm battling enemies, I still don't need them. Maybe I want to blast with something other than a Warlackluster.

Teleporting the party? I'm a wizard, not a packhorse. You can fly, or walk. The Cleric can't heal? Use a potion. Complain about using up an action? Now you know how the Cleric feels, spending all his time as nothing but a heal-monkey.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 08:59 PM
In regards to Clerics being healmonkeys, this time around, Healing Word is a minor action that triggers a healing surge and can be used twice per encounter. Furthermore, Encounter and Daily Powers will often cause a healing surge in addition to the regular attack.

In short, a typical Cleric can Move, Attack, and trigger 2 healing surges in a single round. Once they gain 2 encounter powers, they can probably pull it off on 2 consecutive rounds, and do the combo every battle they are in. They can even drop the Surges on themselves, whereupon they can pull off stuff like recovering 2/3s of their HP, attack, and move, all in one round.

Get a +3 modifier to Con, and a Cleric will have 10 surges, enough to use all of their healing word on themselves, and using their encounter/daily powers to trigger additional surges. Clerics are easily the best solo class.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-23, 07:39 AM
Burst 1 hits 9 squares, according to the current info on 4th edition.

As said by others, knowledge known so far includes people who've playtested 4th edition, people who've gotten their hands on 4th edition rulebooks, and official excerpts from 4th edition rulebooks. Despite the guide's disclaimer, most of its information can be traced to valid sources, rather than mere rumors.

My main point in this topic is that Magic Missile is a good backup ability, not a primary ability, and that using it every round is not a good use for the Wizard.

Ray of Frost effectively disables melee enemies and is more likely to hit than Magic Missile.

Scorching Burst can hit multiple enemies, and is thus highly effective in eliminating minions, more so than Magic Missile is.

A controller's role is to disable enemies (ray of frost) or do crowd control (scorching burst), dealing large amounts of damage (magic missile) is a backup for a controller, and while useful to have, should be dropped first in favor of the other 2 abilities, which the controller is better at than other roles are.
Slowing down an enemy is always useful, true.... that's why similar effects were 3rd level spells in 2nd and 3rd edition. Why it's an"at will" effect now beats me. And can Scorching Burst be used at close range? You'd need to be dangerous close to those mellee minions to use it, if it can't. That's what should balance effects like magic missile and scorching burst. But then again, I need to read the rules when it come out. Thus far it's just speculation based on official reports.

wodan46
2008-05-23, 08:27 AM
As an At-Will, it can be used repeatedly to lock down a creature while dealing damage to it. Especially useful if attacked by single powerful enemies who can only attack at melee range, who will become pincushions before they get close due to the damage from the rays and arrows that are thrown at them.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-23, 08:28 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about Prone granting combat advantage... that makes a rogue that can trip -fiercesome-

Triaxx
2008-05-23, 06:48 PM
The comment about Healmonkey's was in relation to people that expect the cleric to spend all his time healing them, just because he can. Or complain because he took something that prevents him healing. The player running the cleric is allowed to have fun as well, and if not being trapped into the role of healing is his idea of fun, so be it.

tyckspoon
2008-05-23, 07:00 PM
Slowing down an enemy is always useful, true.... that's why similar effects were 3rd level spells in 2nd and 3rd edition. Why it's an"at will" effect now beats me.

Because it's been weakened, I assume. 3E Slow penalizes movement speed, defenses, and most potently, restricts actions. 4E's slowed status just limits movement. It looks like the closest equivalent to 3E Slow would be 4E Daze. Slow is probably the weakest status effect in that list aside from Marked, and Marked isn't meant to have much effect on its own (I'm a little surprised it has any effect other than enabling powers that work on Marked targets.) So a weak controlling effect available at will for a level 1 controller.. seems right.

Vikingkingq
2008-05-23, 10:52 PM
I think the Magic Missile is more effective than people give it credit for, unless the majority of combats start with enemies in 10 sq range or less. My argument for Magic Missile is that it's what you use at long range to soften your enemy up. When they get within ten, you slow them down with Ray of Frost; when they bunch up, you use Scorching Burst. And so on.

Lost Light
2008-05-24, 12:35 AM
Something that's kinda bugged me about people's reaction to 4.0 is what seems to be the idea that we cannot change the rules a little to suit our particular games. Your group likes the 3.5 Magic Missile better? Adapt it.

And I completly agree that if your wizard likes the spell, then who gives a damn whether it optimizes your character or not. I don't care of its not the best option, if I make a blasty type in 4.0 it won't be an emo-lock...but as of now I'm probably gonna make a pally anyway.