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SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 06:53 AM
Wizards put up a bonus character as a web excerpt for Keep on Shadowfell.. a Tiefling Warlord.

At second level he takes the Wizard multiclass feat. He becomes trained in Arcana and takes the Scorching Blast power, as well as his normal utility power at level 2.


H1 Keep on the Shadowfell has now released—the first official 4th Edition adventure and your chance to play 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons in advance of the core rulebooks!

Keep on the Shadowfell’s Quick-Start Rules booklet already contains five ready-to-play 1st level D&D characters: Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Wizard, Half-Elf Cleric, and Dragonborn Paladin. For your additional use, we’re pleased to offer a sixth ready-to-play character as a web exclusive: the Tielfling Warlord.

Download the Tiefling Warlord.

Each character sheet includes the character’s hit points, initiative, defenses, attacks, powers, feats, skills, and equipment. Select the character you want to play, give it a name, and you’re ready to adventure. Your character earns experience points (XP) as the adventure progresses. You earn XP by defeating monsters, overcoming traps, and solving the mysteries of the adventure. When you earn enough XP to level up, the character sheet explains what your character gets at 2nd and 3rd level. (In the Player’s Handbook, you get to make your own choices from a huge selection of options, but for this Quick-Start, we’ve done all the work for you.)


We hope you enjoy the adventure, and look forward to the official release of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons this June. Be sure to check the list of locations participating in Worldwide D&D Game Day for the one closest to you!


Original Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080522a)

Link to the sheet: Tiefling Warlord (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/TieflingWarlord.zip)

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 07:37 AM
And... Here's page 1 transcribed from the PDF.



Tiefling Warlord
Name:___________ Gender: __
As a tiefling warlord, you honor the military tradition of the fallen nation of Bael Turath. You are a soldier and a leader and your allies turn to you for guidance and support.

Hit Points: 24
Bloodied: 12 Healing Surge: 6 Surges per Day: 8
Initiative: +0 Action Points:_____

Defenses
AC Fort Reflex Will
18 14 14 12

Attacks
Melee Basic Attack: +6 (longsword) Damage: 1d8+3
Ranged Basic Attack: +2 (crossbow) Damage: 1d8+0

Racial Traits
Height: 6'0" Weight: 240lb. Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares. Vision: Low-Light
Languages: Common, Goblin
Alignment: Good
Skill Bonus: +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth (already included)
Bloodhunt: You gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls against bloodied foes
Fire Resistance: You have resist 5 fire (becomes resist 6 fire at level 2)
Infernal Wrath: You can use infernal wrath as an encounter power

Class Features
Combat Leader: You and each ally within 10 squares who can see and hear you gain a +2 power bonus to initiative.
Tactical Presence: When an ally you can see spends an action point to make an attack, the ally gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll.

Feat
Tactical Assault: When an ally who can see you spends an action point to make an attack, the attack's damage roll gains a +4 bonus.

At-Will Powers

Viper's Strike - Warlord Attack 1
You trick your adversary into making a tactical error that gives your comrade a chance to strike.
At-Will - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: +6 vs AC
Hit: 1d8+3 Damage
Effect: If the target shifts before the start of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack from an ally of your choice

Wolf Pack Tactics - Warlord Attack 1
Step by step, you and your friends surround the enemy
At-Will - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Special: Before you attack, you let one ally adjacent to either you or the target shift 1 square as a free action.
Attack: +6 vs AC
Hit: 1d8+3

Encounter Power

Infernal Wrath - Tiefling Racial Power
You call upon your furious nature to improve your odds of harming your foe.
Encounter
Minor Action - Personal
Effect: You can channel your fury to gain a +1 power bonus to you rnext attack roll against an enemy that hit you since your last turn. If your attack hits and deals damage, add an extra +1 damage.

Leaf on the Wind - Warlord Attack 1
Like a leaf caught in the autumn wind, your foe is driven by the flow of battle. Your fierce attacks force him to give ground.
Encounter - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +6 vs AC
Hit: 2d8+3 damage. You or an ally adjacent to the target swaps places with the target.

Working on page 2 now.

KillianHawkeye
2008-05-22, 07:38 AM
Looks pretty good. But I can't wait to get the PHB and read through the whole thing, instead of all these little previews.

On an unrelated note, does anybody know why they've switched Con and Dex in the attributes order? Seems really arbitrary, and I'm sure I won't get used to it. Been saying "Str, Dex, Con" all these years... :smallsigh:

kamikasei
2008-05-22, 07:43 AM
On an unrelated note, does anybody know why they've switched Con and Dex in the attributes order? Seems really arbitrary, and I'm sure I won't get used to it. Been saying "Str, Dex, Con" all these years... :smallsigh:

If it now goes Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha, then you've got:
(Str/Con) - go to Fortitude
(Dex/Int) - go to Reflex. Or AC. Or both?
(Wis/Cha) - go to Will
...maybe that's the reason?

eta: and having looked at the sheet, that is indeed the order, so yeah, I'm guessing it's to make it easier to tell at a glance which ability bonus to use for each defence.

ImperiousLeader
2008-05-22, 07:45 AM
On an unrelated note, does anybody know why they've switched Con and Dex in the attributes order? Seems really arbitrary, and I'm sure I won't get used to it. Been saying "Str, Dex, Con" all these years... :smallsigh:

There's actually a good reason for that. You now take the better of STR or CON to determine your Fortitude defense, the better of DEX or INT to determine your Reflex defense and the better of WIS or CHA to determine your Will Defense. I like this change a lot.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 07:53 AM
Page 2 for your enjoyment.

I should probably... you know... actually get to work now... :smallwink:



Daily Power

Lead the Attack - Warlord Attack 1
Under your direction, arrows hit their marks and blades drive home
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: +6 vs AC
Hit: 3d8+3 Damage. Until the end of the encounter, you and each ally within 5 squares of you gain a +5 power bonus to attack rolls against the target.
Miss: Until the end of the encounter, you and each ally within 5 squares of you gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls against the target.

{table]Skills (Ability) | Trained? | Modifier
Acrobatics (Dex) | | -1
Arcana (Int) | | +4
Athletics (Str) | Yes | +7
Bluff (Cha) | | +3
Diplomacy (Cha) | Yes | +6
Dungeoneering (Wis) | | +0
Endurance (Con) | | +0
Heal (Wis) | | +0
History (Int) | Yes | +9
Insight (Wis) | | +0
Intimidate (Cha) | Yes | +6
Nature (Wis) | | +0
Perception (Wis) | | +0
Religion (Int) | | +4
Stealth (Dex) | | +1
Streetwise (Cha) | | +1
Thievery (Dex) | | -1
[/table]

Gear
Armor: Hide Armor, Light Shield
Weapon: Longsword, Crossbow, Crossbow bolts (20). Your crossbow has a range of 15/30
Adventurer's Kit: This kit includes: A backpack, a bedroll, flint and steel, a belt pouch, two sunrods, ten days worth of trail rations, 50 feet of hempen rope and a waterskin.
Gold: 9 gp

Str 16 (+3) Con 12 (+1) Dex 10 (+0) Int 18 (+4) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 12 (+1)

2nd Level
At 2nd level, you gain the following:
Hit Points: Increase to 29 Bloodied: Increase to 14
Healing Surge: Increase to 7
Level Modifier: Because your new level is an even number, everything that includes one-half your level gets better. Increase your attacks, defenses, intiative and skill check modifiers by 1 point.

Feat: Arcane Initiate: You gain training in the Arcana skill (add +5 to the Arcana skill). You can use the scorching burst power once per encounter.

Scorching Burst - Wizard Attack 1
A vertical column of golden flames burns all within
Encounter - Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action. Area Burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: +4 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d6+4 fire damage

Aid the Injured - Warlord Utility 2
Your presence is both a comfort and an inspiration.
Encounter - Healing, Martial
Standard Action. Melee touch
Target: You or one adjacent ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge.

3rd Level
At 3rd level you gain the following:
Hit Points: Increase to 34 Bloodied: Increase to 17
Healing Surge: Increase to 8

Steel Monsoon - Warlord Attack 3
You leap into the fray with a wild, whirling attack - but your movements are carefully calculated to distract nearby enemies and give your allies a chance to move into position.
Encounter - Martila, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: +7 vs AC
Hit: 2d8+3 damage, and one ally within 5 squares of you can shift 5 squares.

Starsinger
2008-05-22, 08:05 AM
Wow, I rather like that. I suppose we'll have to add Warlord to the list of 4e classes I want to play.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 08:16 AM
...My eyes must be fooling me. Did the Warlord have a power that lets him pull off a cheesy "I am a leaf on the wind"?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 08:21 AM
... I have to name this tiefling "Wash"

:smallbiggrin:

Charity
2008-05-22, 08:25 AM
OK Sam I see your scoop and I raise you
A whole new adventure (http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh209/yakima-stone/000_0167.jpg) :smalltongue:
Oh yeah baby thats a picture of Scott Rouse's desk
I think the adventure is "Treasure of Talon Pass" by David Noonan
It's not on Wizard's 2008 product list so it's not official yet.

More discussion over here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226993)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 08:26 AM
... I have to name this tiefling "Wash"

:smallbiggrin:

Indeed. 4th has just become totally awesome.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 08:31 AM
OK Sam I see your scoop and I raise you
A whole new adventure (http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh209/yakima-stone/000_0167.jpg) :smalltongue:
Oh yeah baby thats a picture of Scott Rouse's desk
I think the adventure is "Treasure of Talon Pass" by David Noonan
It's not on Wizard's 2008 product list so it's not official yet.

More discussion over here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226993)

I commend your one-up-manship. *tips hat*

Charity
2008-05-22, 08:37 AM
*bows gracefully*
falls on his head

It's good news though, as it looks like I may get to play in two... yes count em two! games of 4e, and we will be needing some more published adventures to get us all in the swing of things.
we were I was worried that the 3rd party licence doesn't start for quite a few months yet leaving only one published module out there.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 08:41 AM
There are 6 currently announced published mods.

H1 - Keep on Shadowfell (1-3)
H2 - Thunderspire Labyrinth (4-6)
H3 - Pyramid of Shadows (7-10)
P1 - King of the Trollhaunt Warrens (11-13)
P2 - Demon Queen's Enclave (14-16)

And one Forgotten Realms adventure:

FR1 - Scepter Tower of Spellguard (2nd level)

Is it sad that I have them -all- on preorder?

Charity
2008-05-22, 08:46 AM
Yeah but those H & P ones are all the same adventure path, so one campaign...

and no, it's just sad you won't get to play, you'll clearly be running them all.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 08:50 AM
Yeah but those H & P ones are all the same adventure path, so one campaign...

and no, it's just sad you won't get to play, you'll clearly be running them all.

Yeah, I'm the 4e DM round these parts.

I'm at least playing Keep on Shadowfell :)

I start tomorrow! Halfing Rogue!

(And I'll be playing in Living Forgotten Realms)

Scintillatus
2008-05-22, 08:56 AM
I am wholly unimpressed by the "benefits" of multiclassing, even given the amount of feats you can pick as you level up. I hope that you can take that feat multiple times or something, or else I'll just reflavour my characters instead of bothering with the arcane training and etc.

Charity
2008-05-22, 09:14 AM
I am wholly unimpressed by the "benefits" of multiclassing, even given the amount of feats you can pick as you level up. I hope that you can take that feat multiple times or something, or else I'll just reflavour my characters instead of bothering with the arcane training and etc.

Multiclassing link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080430a)
I think multilassing will be quite strong when done correctly but each to their own.

Scintillatus
2008-05-22, 09:41 AM
Still not very impressed really. I can't get away with a Tomb-raider Wizard who has experience with traps and locks, or a Dark Champion of the Elder Gods who uses Starpact powers and Warlord stuff at the same time. I get one low-level power, and then can swap out three powers. Meh.

It's less ridiculous than 4e but I'm still not hugely encouraged, the only thing which appeals to me is access to a greater selection of feats, but I just burned one on getting access in the first place.

Picking some race-based stuff, or just getting the 4e equivalent of "extra granted maneuver" seems the stronger way to go.

KIDS
2008-05-22, 09:44 AM
Very nice! Even more than the multiclassing that seems to work solidly, I like the powers Viper Strike and Leaf on the Wind; Viper Strike was something that was always missing from current D&D in my opinion.

kamikasei
2008-05-22, 09:51 AM
Still not very impressed really. I can't get away with a Tomb-raider Wizard who has experience with traps and locks,

Wouldn't taking the Sneak of Shadows feat to give your Wizard the Thievery skill do exactly that? (I may be forgetting what the Thievery skill does.)

Scintillatus
2008-05-22, 09:56 AM
Hmm, good point. I forgot Thievery was a blanket skill now. That probably would work.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 10:35 AM
I guess I need to check out the WotC site more often, or just keep an eye out for you guys posting 4E stuff here on the forums. I've been sitting here for over an hour trying to figure out how to build a Warlord pre-gen character for one of my friends by tonight or tomorrow. :smallmad:

I like the concept of the Warlord not being afraid to dip into his arcane side - in 3.5, that could turn into a pretty cool PrC, so maybe we'll see a Paragon path or whatever based on that. I'm a little disappointed that there's not straight Warlord focusing on just his Warlord stuff, but I think my player will enjoy playing a Tiefling, so that works out.


[Also, I wondered whether anyone else spotted the "Leaf on the Wind" thing - hooray for 4E writers probably being fellow Browncoats!]

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 10:36 AM
... Watch how I soar...

Trog
2008-05-22, 10:38 AM
... Watch how I soar...

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought of that.

*makes plastic dinosaurs talk to one another*

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 10:54 AM
... Watch how I soar...Leading to an I-beam through your heart, i.e. lame plot device to show the audience, "See? If we kill the favorite characters off, we've proven we'll kill anyone! Feel the tension!" :(

/rant

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 10:56 AM
Leading to an I-beam through your heart, i.e. lame plot device to show the audience, "See? If we kill the favorite characters off, we've proven we'll kill anyone! Feel the tension!" :(

/rant

Aw, c'mon, that WAS well handled. The reason people don't like it is because Wash didn't get a Really Dead Montage and Dust in the Wind.

skywalker
2008-05-22, 11:05 AM
Leading to an I-beam through your heart, i.e. lame plot device to show the audience, "See? If we kill the favorite characters off, we've proven we'll kill anyone! Feel the tension!" :(

/rant

I thought it was just proof they weren't trying to make a trilogy? [/offtopic]

Steel Monsoon looks awesome. 2d8 damage and somebody gets(effectively) a move action? Yes please, and can I have another?

I wish this had come in the box. It is ten times more awesome than the cleric.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 11:09 AM
I thought it was just proof they weren't trying to make a trilogy? [/offtopic]

Steel Monsoon looks awesome. 2d8 damage and somebody gets(effectively) a move action? Yes please, and can I have another?

I wish this had come in the box. It is ten times more awesome than the cleric.

I sent the PDF to my group and the GM said that if one of us happens to die, we will be replaced by the warlord... at which someone said "Uh, I think My paladin has come down with a nasty cough." :smalltongue:

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 11:21 AM
Steel Monsoon looks awesome. 2d8 damage and somebody gets(effectively) a move action? Yes please, and can I have another?

Yeah, next encounter. :smallbiggrin:


I wish this had come in the box. It is ten times more awesome than the cleric.

I feel the same way. Actually, I would have been fine if the Cleric had been there, too - I REALLY would liked to have seen one pre-gen character of each Core class (or at least two of each role) so people could have some different options. Fighter or Paladin, Cleric or Warlord, Rogue or Warlock, Wizard or ??? (I don't know any other controllers, if there are even any other Core classes).

Starsinger
2008-05-22, 11:22 AM
Fighter or Paladin, Cleric or Warlord, Rogue or Warlock, Wizard or ??? (I don't know any other controllers, if there are even any other Core classes).

There aren't. We have 2 defenders, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 1 controller.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 11:25 AM
There aren't. We have 2 defenders, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 1 controller.

Oh, Ranger is the other class I forgot about. Yeah, I guess every group'll have to have a Wizard then, at least until another Controller comes out. I'm thinking maybe Druid'll be a new Controller with the Nature power source. Or something like that.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-22, 11:38 AM
Anyone think the Teiflings Stats are not really optimized?

I mean, Charisma is a very important stat for Warlord (12), but the Tiefling has higher Int (18).
Lead the Attack for examples secondary benefit is charisma based.

I feel Infernal Wrath and Bloodhunt are unless they are set at +1.

I'll admit Tactical Assault is Int based. But wouldn't he get by with a 16?

Maybe it is just me. I'd rather have 16 Int and 14 Cha than 18 Int with 12 Cha.
Action points won't be used that often/Scorching burst.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 11:42 AM
Action points will be fun for the Warlord: Use Leaf on the Wind Encounter power to hurt someone, shove them a distance away, then Scorching Burst them once they are out of melee range.

Vortling
2008-05-22, 11:45 AM
I wish this had come in the box. It is ten times more awesome than the cleric.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I was worried about when they talked about roles.


Between the obvious love the devs gave the warlord, their clear lack of desire to make the cleric interesting, and clerics STILL having to take the utterly situational and useless turn undead as a class feature instead of something cool I have to say that I'm really not looking forward to 4e.

Okay, that may be an understatement. I liked playing clerics in 3.5. I didn't mind healing, but healing and tossing out some measly insignificant buffs wasn't the only thing I got to do in 3.5. I thought the devs knew that heal botting wasn't fun? Why did they bring it back for 4e with a vengeance? The 4e cleric is even more of a heal and buff bot than the 3.5 cleric. Especially when compared to the warlord's leader style. :smallfurious:

This has definitely and completely killed my interest in 4e unless the warlord drops significantly in cool abilities beyond 3 and the cleric obtains a crap ton of awesome powers at similar levels.

Good grief! What happened to 'every class has something interesting to do each turn'? Couldn't they maintain their own design goals with classes from previous editions? Couldn't they have dropped the cleric completely until another PHB if they knew it was going to be filled with so much suck compared to the warlord at release?


I'll still look through the books when they come out, but if there isn't a serious increase in the fun level for clerics I won't be getting 4e and I'll be telling all the RPers I know how much of a boring healbot the cleric is to play in 4e.

*walks off to calm down*

Draz74
2008-05-22, 11:55 AM
Hmm, good point. I forgot Thievery was a blanket skill now. That probably would work.
If Thievery doesn't do all that you want it to, you can probably get more trained Rogue skills by using more feats. To get a skill via feat, you probably have to either have it as a class skill, or have a multiclass feat to a class that has it as a class skill. So start with the Rogue Multiclass feat, then pick up whatever Rogue skills you want (eventually) ...


Yeah, I guess every group'll have to have a Wizard then, at least until another Controller comes out. I'm thinking maybe Druid'll be a new Controller with the Nature power source. Or something like that.
Depending on the types of monsters you face (i.e. whether there are lots of swarms, or fewer but more powerful creatures), I think they say you might be able to get by without a Controller at all.

I at least hope that having someone multiclassing to Wizard is enough. I don't want every party to require a Wizard until the PHB II comes out. :smallsigh: But I guess I'm OK with every group needing an x/Wizard gish type. As I mentioned before, I'm kind of excited to make a Halfling Warlock/Wizard witch doctor.


Anyone think the Teiflings Stats are not really optimized?

I mean, Charisma is a very important stat for Warlord (12), but the Tiefling has higher Int (18).
Lead the Attack for examples secondary benefit is charisma based.

I feel Infernal Wrath and Bloodhunt are unless they are set at +1.

I'll admit Tactical Assault is Int based. But wouldn't he get by with a 16?

Maybe it is just me. I'd rather have 16 Int and 14 Cha than 18 Int with 12 Cha.
Action points won't be used that often/Scorching burst.
In theory, INT is just as important to Warlords as CHA is. Depending on what type of Warlord they are. Just like Rouges are supposed to have either good STR or good CHA, but need good DEX regardless, so also the Warlord is supposed to have either good INT or good CHA, but have good STR regardless.

I, for one, am glad that somebody besides the Wizard will want good INT (now that it doesn't affect skill "points" anymore :smallannoyed:)

I, too, was thinking that CHA-Warlords looked like they had cooler powers than INT-Warlords, but maybe that changes as they get higher-level powers; and maybe the INT powers are better than they seem. Probably, actually. Consider that in a party of 6 characters, there should be 3 Action Points burned every encounter or so. Not too shabby.

The Tiefling probably would have had less tip-top INT and higher CHA (since it gets racial bonuses to both!) if it weren't planning on being a Wizard multiclass. In future levels, it will get more Wizard powers than just Scorching Burst, and it will keep being glad that its INT is high.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 11:56 AM
Action points will be fun for the Warlord: Use Leaf on the Wind Encounter power to hurt someone, shove them a distance away, then Scorching Burst them once they are out of melee range.

Overlard
2008-05-22, 01:33 PM
Yeah, this is pretty much what I was worried about when they talked about roles.


Between the obvious love the devs gave the warlord, their clear lack of desire to make the cleric interesting, and clerics STILL having to take the utterly situational and useless turn undead as a class feature instead of something cool I have to say that I'm really not looking forward to 4e.

Okay, that may be an understatement. I liked playing clerics in 3.5. I didn't mind healing, but healing and tossing out some measly insignificant buffs wasn't the only thing I got to do in 3.5. I thought the devs knew that heal botting wasn't fun? Why did they bring it back for 4e with a vengeance? The 4e cleric is even more of a heal and buff bot than the 3.5 cleric. Especially when compared to the warlord's leader style. :smallfurious:

This has definitely and completely killed my interest in 4e unless the warlord drops significantly in cool abilities beyond 3 and the cleric obtains a crap ton of awesome powers at similar levels.

Good grief! What happened to 'every class has something interesting to do each turn'? Couldn't they maintain their own design goals with classes from previous editions? Couldn't they have dropped the cleric completely until another PHB if they knew it was going to be filled with so much suck compared to the warlord at release?


I'll still look through the books when they come out, but if there isn't a serious increase in the fun level for clerics I won't be getting 4e and I'll be telling all the RPers I know how much of a boring healbot the cleric is to play in 4e.

*walks off to calm down*
Did you just complain that one class has too many cool abilities, and want it to be less appealing?

I understand wanting your favoured class to get something more, but actually wanting something else to be less fun is just insane.

Vortling
2008-05-22, 01:56 PM
Did you just complain that one class has too many cool abilities, and want it to be less appealing?

Yes.



I understand wanting your favoured class to get something more, but actually wanting something else to be less fun is just insane.
Not really. I expect classes to fit to a level of balance/fun since 4e is supposed to be balanced and fun for any class. As far as I've seen, the warlord is above that level of balance/fun and the cleric below. Bringing the cleric up to the warlord's level will only cause power creep, so a downgrade of the warlord is in order. Since the warlord is clearly more fun to play at early levels I'm merely asking them to balance it out so the cleric is more fun to play at higher levels.

Is it too much to ask that the devs stick to their 'every class should be fun to play' goal?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 01:58 PM
Is it too much to ask that the devs stick to their 'every class should be fun to play' goal?

To be fair, we haven't really seen much of the Cleric yet... and one of the people stated that the Half-Elf cleric was built poorly and deserves another encounter power.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 02:05 PM
Wait, the Cleric's got attacks vs. Will that buff his allies while hurting his enemies. What's the problem?

Overlard
2008-05-22, 02:19 PM
Is it too much to ask that the devs stick to their 'every class should be fun to play' goal?
"But not too fun, otherwise people will complain."

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 02:29 PM
To be fair, we haven't really seen much of the Cleric yet... and one of the people stated that the Half-Elf cleric was built poorly and deserves another encounter power.

Yep, I read that, too. The Cleric, as designed, is missing an Encounter power. I believe the suggestion was to add in one from the Fighter or Paladin or something. I believe there was a mention of an actual fix coming at some point on the D&D Insider thing.

And as Sam said, we really haven't seen much of the Cleric. We've seen a little from the KotS module, maybe one or two powers from other previews, and a description of how things work back in the "battle against a dragon" narrative thing right after 4E was announced. With the Warlord, we've had basically the whole class already previewed (albeit in pieces spread throughout various articles).


Also, regarding Int vs Cha for Warlords - there are going to be two "builds" for Warlords. I think they're called "Inspiring Commander" and "[Adjective] Tactician." The first focuses on Cha, while the second focuses on Int. Since the pre-gen Tiefling has the Tactical class ability and another Tactical feat, I'd assume he's going the Int-focused route.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-22, 02:44 PM
Man, the more I hear about this module, the more it feels like Wizards actually slapped the thing together and printed it out on their office printers the week of the release date.

The way the character portraits in no way resemble their actual characters, the low-quality printing, the nonsensically "simplified" preview rules, the sloppy quick-start character builds, a number of strange monster misprints...

Vortling
2008-05-22, 02:58 PM
To be fair, we haven't really seen much of the Cleric yet... and one of the people stated that the Half-Elf cleric was built poorly and deserves another encounter power.
Ah, I hadn't seen that. Since you mentioned that I went back and made a side by side comparison of the cleric and warlord with the missing encounter power in mind. It does make the comparison much better. I'm still annoyed about turn undead and I'm going to miss the divine ass kicking of the 3.5 cleric but oh well. *shrugs*


Wait, the Cleric's got attacks vs. Will that buff his allies while hurting his enemies. What's the problem?
I'm not quite sure what you're addressing here. Could you clarify please?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 03:06 PM
I'm not quite sure what you're addressing here. Could you clarify please?
The cleric throws around rays of searing light, buffs his allies... how is that not something to do all the time? He's useful (I talked to an acquaintance who ran a the KotSF cleric, and the buffs sure came in handy), even without the half-elf's extra per-encounter power, and he's not standing around going "cure, cure, cure", either.
What were you expecting, the cleric to smash things in melee? He doesn't do that at level 1 in 3E, either. We've only seen "Wisdom vs" powers for the cleric so far, we don't know what their other options are. They might have "CHA vs" powers, but the Paladin's already got that covered, so I'm guessing they will in fact have "STR vs. AC" melee powers, so that'll be an option too.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-22, 03:19 PM
The cleric throws around rays of searing light, buffs his allies... how is that not something to do all the time? He's useful (I talked to an acquaintance who ran a the KotSF cleric, and the buffs sure came in handy), even without the half-elf's extra per-encounter power, and he's not standing around going "cure, cure, cure", either.
What were you expecting, the cleric to smash things in melee? He doesn't do that at level 1 in 3E, either. We've only seen "Wisdom vs" powers for the cleric so far, we don't know what their other options are. They might have "CHA vs" powers, but the Paladin's already got that covered, so I'm guessing they will in fact have "STR vs. AC" melee powers, so that'll be an option too.

To be fair, the Cleric could at level 1 in 3.5, maybe cast Bless or Divine Favor or Magic Weapon on himself?
Granted, this isn't optimal: your better off casting a debuff/save or suck due to saves are low at the lowest levels (no one can get resistance to Saves for long at low levels).

Example:
a. Doom: Will save negate or Shaken 1 minute/level.
b. Cause Fear: Will save partial or Frightened 1d4 rounds (Shaken +flees) lowered to shaken 1 round if save. No matter what it works (granted limited benefit if make save).
c. Bane: multi enemy area, Will save or -1 hit/fear save.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 03:31 PM
The way the character portraits in no way resemble their actual characters, the low-quality printing, the nonsensically "simplified" preview rules, the sloppy quick-start character builds, a number of strange monster misprints...

Care to elaborate on that last part? I haven't run the adventure yet, but I read through it and didn't see anything game-altering in the misprints. Just a few misspellings and such. I'll give you that the portraits aren't great and that they should have probably looked over pre-gen characters a little better, though.

Vortling
2008-05-22, 04:28 PM
The cleric throws around rays of searing light, buffs his allies... how is that not something to do all the time? He's useful (I talked to an acquaintance who ran a the KotSF cleric, and the buffs sure came in handy), even without the half-elf's extra per-encounter power, and he's not standing around going "cure, cure, cure", either.

It's the usefulness of said buffing that has me worried. It's good to hear that people are finding them useful. I've been looking in many places for actual play experiences of the cleric and haven't yet found any first hand accounts. There must be people playing clerics since I see many second hand accounts, but I've yet to see any written up.



What were you expecting, the cleric to smash things in melee? He doesn't do that at level 1 in 3E, either.

Well the cleric is none too shabby at it in 3e if the cleric focuses on it. The role I've seen them play and hear people talk about them playing is definitely melee focused with the exception of the cloistered cleric. In light of that, can you blame me for thinking the cleric would get some melee capabilities?



We've only seen "Wisdom vs" powers for the cleric so far, we don't know what their other options are. They might have "CHA vs" powers, but the Paladin's already got that covered, so I'm guessing they will in fact have "STR vs. AC" melee powers, so that'll be an option too.
Clearly we'll have to wait and see if those options are available. I still expect to read the books and play a game before buying any 4e stuff.

Apologies for the overly negative post before. I really have no excuse. Even if I am disappointed about the lack of info about clerics.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-22, 04:54 PM
Well, I don't have the adventure or anything I would need to do a proper analysis, but someone on ENworld pointed out that the Zombie Rotters appear to be pretty underpowered (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4236977&postcount=39) considering their level. I'd file that under "intentional, due to some bizarre development thought process", were it not for all the other things I've heard about the module.

And Vortling: we're not even sure we have all the Cleric's class features yet. The Warlord can choose between Commanding Presence (Inspiring) or Commanding Presence (Tactical); the Rogue can choose between Rogue Tactics (Artful Dodger) or Rogue Tactics (Brutal Scoundrel); the Warlock can choose between Star Pact, Infernal Pact, or Fey Pact... et cetera. It doesn't seem too farfetched that the Cleric might be able to choose between Channel Divinity (Healbot) or Channel Divinity (Hammer of God), does it?

wodan46
2008-05-22, 05:19 PM
Keep on Shadowfell seems to have severe rules problems, given that its rules are written as such to cause people to make mistakes, if the rules aren't entirely wrong.

The main Half-Elf racial ability is to get an At-Will power from another class as an Encounter power, ontop of any regular powers they have.

That said, Clerics seem to be quite powerful. Note in particular that Healing Word is a MINOR action and you heal an ally for surge+1d6, move, and at-will power a monster, all on the same turn. Clerics also have healing surges triggering off of encounter and daily powers often, once again in addition to the regular effects.

Now comparison of Warlord and Cleric:

Warlord Features
1. Combat Leader: +2 to initiative to all allies within 10
2. Commanding Presence: Allies get either a 1/2 level + Charisma Modifier HP when they spend an action point, or 1/2 level + Intelligence Modifier is added to their attack when they attack using an action point (get only 1 of these a feature).
3. Inspiring Word (not listed on Kosf character sheet, not explained elsewhere, similar to Healing Word?)
General Powers: Do an Attack, while giving allies bonuses to attacks, free shifting, and occasionally situational bonus attacks, occasional surges

Cleric Features
1. Channel Divinity: Get a set of 3 encounter powers out of at least 4, only can use 1 per encounter though. Immediately turn a critical hit to a normal hit, free +1 to your next saving throw/attack, free +1d10 radiant damage to an attack power that already does radiant damage, or AOE attack that damages and pushes Undead as a standard action.
2. Healing Word: Trigger 2 surges per encounter, both as minor actions, can only do once per round, can target self.
3. Ritual Casting Feat
General Powers: Give AC and temporary hitpoints to allies and occasional bonuses to hit, occasional surges, attacks deal radiant damage and are against will/wisdom often.

Explain to me how a Cleric is any less flexible than a Warlord? Warlords are better at doing damage and boosting allied attacks, but Clerics are better at boosting defenses, healing, and can attack at range 5ish, giving them some space.

Clerics also do radiant damage, which is highly effective at anything that likes spewing necrotic damage, which includes undead and anything from shadowfell. Cleric attacks also target Will and Wisdom, meaning that they are often effective against enemies that are hard to hit when going through their AC, which is almost always the highest of the defenses for monsters.

Keep in mind that Clerics are ALWAY attacking in ADDITION to throwing healing surges and defense bonuses right and left.

Also keep in mind that Channel Divinity gives you a toolset of 3 encounter powers, of which you can use 1 per encounter, and chosen out of a pool of at least 4 when you make your character. That means you can Turn Undead when there are undead, and otherwise, you can just give yourself 1d10 bonus damage on an attack, increase the odds of attacking successfully, or save an ally from being splattered from a critical. That said Turn Undead is a VERY effective deterrent to Undead, which are quite common in 4e from the looks of it.

KillianHawkeye
2008-05-22, 06:28 PM
There's actually a good reason for that. You now take the better of STR or CON to determine your Fortitude defense, the better of DEX or INT to determine your Reflex defense and the better of WIS or CHA to determine your Will Defense. I like this change a lot.

Ah, I had heard that before, but I forgot. Makes sense now, I guess.

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 07:23 PM
Keep on Shadowfell seems to have severe rules problems, given that its rules are written as such to cause people to make mistakes, if the rules aren't entirely wrong.It doesn't really have rules problems. I was pretty clear on everything on a quick readthrough. Seriously. They hold your hand in terms of tactics for the first few fights, after that the tactics sections are a bit less hamfisted and more suggestions or how to logically set up and use new monsters or whatever.

I don't really understand how the DM in Skywalker's thread butchered bursts and the sleep spell (two I remember offhand), unless he just did not read the character sheets or page 10. The only thing that might be confusing on the first reading why there's a modifier for area attacks for no LOS when you can't select an origin square when there's a solid object between you and it. There's not much call for that attack modifier in the module, if any. The only thing that comes to mind is blasting into an unlit area.

They rules may be wrong, but that's a bit of a longshot. I don't know, maybe I am some sort of supergenius who should be working at the NSA due to my innate ability to understand the most cryptic codes. Odds are that's not the case.

wodan46
2008-05-22, 08:48 PM
They left out the Half Elf's main racial ability, which is having an at-will power from another class as an encounter power, in addition to regular powers. That's kind of, you know IMPORTANT.

Also, no sign of the Inspiring Word power for the Warlord Class, which has openly stated to be a class feature in the excerpt involving it. Given that it is likely the counterpart to Healing Word power of the Cleric, it is also rather IMPORTANT.

In short, an important racial feature and class feature were simply left out entirely.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 09:08 PM
Also, no sign of the Inspiring Word power for the Warlord Class, which has openly stated to be a class feature in the excerpt involving it. Given that it is likely the counterpart to Healing Word power of the Cleric, it is also rather IMPORTANT.

Unless I missed it somewhere, all we got about Inspiring Word was this little tidbit from the Excerpt article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080421a):


Inspiring Word
Using the inspiring word power, warlords can grant their comrades additional resilience with nothing more than a shout of encouragement.

I mean, it doesn't go in to specifics, so maybe there's some other reason it's not there. It's just as likely it's a mistake, though, but we can't really know until the full rules. Or some errata or something on the adventure/pre-gen characters.

Yeah, apparently it is on there. I guess I should have looked it up on the printed copy sitting three feet from me before I spent time search all around the internet for it... :smallyuk:

wodan46
2008-05-22, 09:28 PM
Actually, nevermind, the Inspiring Word is on the character sheet now after all, and it works EXACTLY like Healing Word, except its martial instead of divine.

kc0bbq
2008-05-22, 10:05 PM
They left out the Half Elf's main racial ability, which is having an at-will power from another class as an encounter power, in addition to regular powers. That's kind of, you know IMPORTANT.It's kind of minor, really, in the grand scheme of things, but whatever, you're going out of your way to be angry about any tiny thing you can.

skywalker
2008-05-23, 12:14 AM
It's the usefulness of said buffing that has me worried. It's good to hear that people are finding them useful. I've been looking in many places for actual play experiences of the cleric and haven't yet found any first hand accounts. There must be people playing clerics since I see many second hand accounts, but I've yet to see any written up.
I tried really hard to play the cleric so I would have first-hand info for you. Unfortunately, another member of my group is obsessed with "taking one for the team" and fought me off the cleric when I tried to take it. *shrug*

As for first level cleric play, I always preferred bless. You get basically the same effect as bane without the saving throw. Also, I was rather fond of the strength domain, whose first level spell, enlarge person, allows you to be readily awesome at melee combat.

wodan46
2008-05-23, 07:48 AM
Hey kc0bbq, I'm only reacting to the negative responses some have had to the D&D module, much of which is based off either misunderstandings (Scorching Burst) or genuine errors (half-elf cleric being weak, but is missing a power after all).

Tengu
2008-05-23, 09:17 AM
Made of win and covered in awesomesauce. The coolest character from the premade ones so far. And he's not emo!

Although I wonder one thing - someone dare to try and find how Aid the Injured is better than Inspiring Word. Because I can't see it - not only does it heal less, can be used only once per encounter, not twice, and takes a longer action, but it's also a higher-level power.

Vortling
2008-05-23, 09:25 AM
I tried really hard to play the cleric so I would have first-hand info for you. Unfortunately, another member of my group is obsessed with "taking one for the team" and fought me off the cleric when I tried to take it. *shrug*


Thanks for trying. It's my hope that the "take one for the team" attitude will go away in 4e. As a player I don't mind it since I play clerics often, but it's annoying as a DM to have people playing characters they don't entirely want to simply because they won't listen when I tell them that I'll make sure the lack of a cleric won't be an issue.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-23, 09:32 AM
Maybe we'll luck out and get a cleric preview someday soon... or... you know, the books come out in what... 15 days? :smallbiggrin:

wodan46
2008-05-23, 10:33 AM
Inspiring Word is a primary class feature, that assuming 5 encounters per day, grants 10surges+10d6 healing a day. Aid the Injured adds an additional 5surges+5d6 healing per day, albeit at melee range. Utility spells aren't especially powerful, and given that this one increases your max heals per day significantly, its pretty good to have. Also, Inspiring Word can't be gotten by multiclassing and Healing Word is reduced to 1 a day, while Aid the Injured can be gotten at full strength, just 2 feats and you can give any class 5surges+5d6 healing a day.

Also, by the way, keep in mind, the power of clerics isn't to trigger healing surges. Regulars classes can do that by taking a 5 minute rest, and once per encounter. The power of clerics is to spam them in combat, and give those additional d6s of healing ontop of that.

skywalker
2008-05-23, 04:29 PM
Thanks for trying. It's my hope that the "take one for the team" attitude will go away in 4e. As a player I don't mind it since I play clerics often, but it's annoying as a DM to have people playing characters they don't entirely want to simply because they won't listen when I tell them that I'll make sure the lack of a cleric won't be an issue.

Well, keep in mind, after our first session, the cleric looked like trash, partially because the player was not a cleric(at least a good cleric) type player. She played a fighter in 3.5 because she only had to roll a max of 3 different types of dice and got to kill things a lot. That guy basically thought he was in a "politeness contest" with me. Which he wasn't, I thought I could make the cleric look quite a bit better.

As for you hoping that attitude goes away, I predict that that attitude actually becomes more pronounced in 4e. In 3.5, I never thought I was "taking one for the team" when I played the cleric. Neither did anyone else, because clerics were butt-kickers. Now... not so much :smallconfused: