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Blanks
2008-05-22, 10:59 AM
So i got to thinking about the decanter of endless water.

As a DM I have a problem with it, namely its ability to remove pit traps in dungeon. It doesn't take very long to fill in even a large hole, and then the danger shifts from "dropping to your death" to "getting wet"...

A standard 10*10*10 foot cube would take something like 25 minutes to fill. Lets say the hole is all in all 90 feet deep (8d6 damage), meaning it would take around 4 hours (224,42 minutes) to fill it in. Unless you are in a hurry, those 4 hours would often be a solid investment.

But, you say, they don't know the pit is there!.
Yes they do. Because whenever there is a place where you could place a pit trap, they soak the floor. If the water disappears, there is a hidden hole. Trap found.



Any solutions? Charges defeats the "endless" part of it, and removing the "geysor" function really removes the coolness of the item.
Maybe i'm just too paranoid...

Blanks
2008-05-22, 11:00 AM
Conversion tool here:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

Ryuuk
2008-05-22, 11:09 AM
It looks like the PCs would just go from having the Rogue take 20 on a search check wherever they think there might be a trap to using the Decanter to check if there is specifically a pit trap there. It doesn't seem like much of a problem, at least from my perspective.

its_all_ogre
2008-05-22, 11:12 AM
holes in the floor might not only be pit traps, if one contains valuable scrolls and water goes in the scrolls are ruined.
what about a pit trap with a swim-capable monster? it was trapped until they flooded the pit, now it is free. water elemental perhaps.
any kind of ooze or jelly could arguably float atop water...

or just don't let them buy/make one.

Meat Shield
2008-05-22, 11:16 AM
Not to mention what happens if they fight something that has electrical based powers or an electrified trap. DM-rule that everyone in the water takes the damage. Or what if the water causes a rapid-forming sinkhole, or the extra weight of water causes some sort of structural collapse.

EDIT: and the water makes for reflex saves to keep from falling prone, and makes it difficult terrain. And you could always throw something at them with cold powers - get them in a thigh high puddle then flash freeze the water.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 11:17 AM
And the flow of water is not quiet... you've just alerted someone that there are adventurers in your dungeon... or that a hill giant is taking a huge leak nearby.

Armar
2008-05-22, 11:21 AM
Two possible solutions:

A) The pit isn't covered by illusion, but a water-tight floor that will crumble or move away once a person steps on it. Make it either:
- Weight dependent: activates once there's enough weight on top of it.
- Pressure dependant: activates (crumbles) once there's enough pressure on any one spot
- Magic-triggered: Wizard did it

B) Don't have a pit there. Instead have a 10x10x10ft hole ABOVE the corridor, concealed. Once a hapless victim steps on the center of the 10x10 square belove it, a 10x10x10ft Jell-O-Doom is dropped on him from above.

(And yes, I am talking about you, Gelatinous Cube)

RS14
2008-05-22, 11:28 AM
holes in the floor might not only be pit traps, if one contains valuable scrolls and water goes in the scrolls are ruined.
Scrolls in the bottoms of pits seem somewhat artificial. Who's going to go around leaving scrolls in pits?

Flooding the floor won't work everywhere. Particularly if it's very rough, or slanted, or hazardous in some ways, or if the pit has a solid lid, they can't be sure they will find a pit-trap without using just as much care as a rogue searching every step.

Also, unless they can reliably make the DC12 strength check, they're likely to be knocked down and possibly fall into the pit, or hit someone else with the geyser, etc. Or were you thinking they would simply drop it in the pit?

I have a different philosophy towards traps, which I think you should consider here. A pit trap should rarely come as a surprise, unless it is carefully concealed with a lid. I mean, it's a gaping hole in the floor, search DC be damned. Use pits to force them to take care in combat, or to make them stop to bypass them in some way, or to connect multiple levels of a dungeon. Sure, if they find a trap in the hall with nothing more in the encounter, they can bypass it easily with the decanter, but this trick doesn't even come close to ruining the game. You can still slow them down in combat, or make them act quickly to bypass one if they're fleeing pursuit, or to connect multiple levels of a dungeon.

Worira
2008-05-22, 11:36 AM
So... If they take 4 hours and have a wondrous item costing more than boots of levitation, they can make a DC 10 swim check instead of a DC 10 jump check? Whoah, game-breaking!

Adumbration
2008-05-22, 11:41 AM
The pit might not fill. It might not be a perfectly made pit with perfect tiles: it could be pit with small holes in the bottom, where the water slowly - or fast, if you like - leak away.

Lucyfur
2008-05-22, 11:46 AM
Dude, just give the players props for finding a good solution to pit traps. Are you upset that you didn't get to impale their characters on spikes? I really don't see a problem here. Chillax!

sikyon
2008-05-22, 12:08 PM
But, you say, they don't know the pit is there!.
Yes they do. Because whenever there is a place where you could place a pit trap, they soak the floor. If the water disappears, there is a hidden hole. Trap found.
[/COLOR]

What, is your floor made out of linolium or laminated wood? Jeeze, make the floor dirt or flagstones with cracks between them. That'll leak water just fine.

In effect: This strategy should not work as the floor should not be waterproof anyways.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 12:15 PM
It is true, though; many a problem can be solved via judicious application of Decanters of Endless Water.

Don Beegles
2008-05-22, 12:16 PM
I agree with Lucyfur; how is it a huge issue that your players have discovered an interesting new use to one of their items that helps them solve a minor and not all that difficult problem. Or did you use pit traps so often, even at higher levels, that this is game-breaking? Otherwise, I would say that it bypassing the trap is worth the noise a geyser makes, the potential flooding of lower dungeon levels, and the risk of damaging any loot from poor saps who fell in the hole because they didn't have decanters, let them go for it.

Actually, I like the idea of flooding lower dungeon levels. You could have all of your pit traps slowly leak to lower levels, so that it fills slightly slower, andd remains full for long enough for the PCs to swim across, before drainign as they pass it. Thay way they're trudging through muck the whole time when they get lower down and you get to say "Don't forget the consequences of your actions."

Blanks
2008-05-22, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the input guys. Perhaps I should just accept that if I give them a decanter, I possibly say byebye to (some) pit traps. It is a somewhat restricted solution, mainly in the time it takes and the noise it makes.

A few replys:
@ Ryuuk and RS14
My traps are mainly puzzles, so they are almost always found beforehand. I think Ars ludi described it better than I could in this article:
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/ <-- For those that feel the same way and want to read more.

@ meatshield
Hadn't thought of the weight, thats important if there is anything below.

@ RS14
They could probably brace it against the walls or ceiling somehow, that shouldn't be too hard to do.

@ Sikyion and Adumbration
I dont think you factor in the amount of water we are talking here :)
A few cracks or small holes won't do anything. A major pit will swallow the water but anything less will be filled instantly.

Blanks
2008-05-22, 12:26 PM
Btw this is still a theoretical discussion, they haven't gotten it yet, and i'm just brainstorming what i would do with an item like that.

I fully agree with the illiterate scribe in that it is a very versatile item.


Regarding WBL, I just give them whatever seems appropriate and fun, never looking at price...

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 12:30 PM
Scrolls in the bottoms of pits seem somewhat artificial. Who's going to go around leaving scrolls in pits?
The guy it caught who didn't live to pick them back up?

Gypsy0001
2008-05-22, 12:39 PM
Wow... you don't own a home, do you?

Using a decanter to find pit traps would be imbecilic, because almost every time you used it the water would seep away through cracks. This is most especially true of constructed dungeons, and even still possible in natural caverns.

If I don't caulk the living hell out of the bathrooms in our house, every time a floor gets mopped it ends up in the ceiling somewhere. And I'm pretty sure kobold laborers don't take the time to do caulking. Just a half-ass mortaring job.

If they want to use the decanter that way, let them. And give them an 80% chance that the water seeps through cracks in the flooring, trap or not.

valadil
2008-05-22, 12:49 PM
For finding traps, the water is just as likely to trigger a trap as it is detect one. What about the trap where stepping on a certain stone sets off the fireballs? The weight of the water ought to be enough to trip such a trap.

Who ever said a pit trap is leak proof? The water may seep through the bottom before it reaches usable levels.

What about fanged death from the deep? I've always enjoyed dungeons with partially flooded areas. Not falling in the flaming dire squid infested waters is always a concern. Now that you raised the water level, the flaming dire squids can get to you so much more easily. If you don't want to have all your dungeons filled with water like that, maybe just the traps? I could see a crocodile living in the bottom of the spiked pit, feasting on whatever victims fell through. I could even see a BBEG leaving crocodiles in the spiked pit. You need someone to keep the spikes clean. Otherwise anyone falling through the trap will land on soft, fleshy corpses instead of point spikes. The decanter used here would eliminate the danger of jumping, but give the group a fight with some toothy beasts instead. Seems like a fair trade.

90% of the time though, the decanter just lets your players get by without rolling skill checks that you expected them to succeed anyway. I say let them get away with it, but fire a couple warning shots here or there so that it doesn't become a handicap.

--edit to add--

My original point that I forgot to mention is that the decanter takes time. A lot of players end up having to make missions time sensitive or else wizards will rest after each fight. If it takes 4 hours to bypass a trap, you need to make 4 hours into a resource in and of itself. Let's say your buddy is hanged at dawn tomorrow unless the real murderer is found. He's at the back of a trap filled cave and sunlight rapidly approaches. The group might be able to wait out one four hour pit trap, but if they submerge every threat they'll finish the quest a week too late. Just treat a group with a decanter like a wizard with rope trick and you should be all set.

its_all_ogre
2008-05-22, 01:09 PM
the scrolls were meant to signify that someone else died in the pit trap as jack mentioned above.
also just because something appears to be a pit trap does not mean it is, a badly hidden trap is easily avoided after all so hide a secret entrance to your lair through there. the rest of the dungeon is a decoy and heavily trapped.
if pc's drench the way into your sanctum then they could have all kinds of fun.
i think they'll be able to fill a pit fairly well due to the amount of water gushing out at a time though.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-22, 01:09 PM
Seems like you could solve the decanter issue by just assuming that the designers of your pit trap also provided adequate drainage to stop any leaking groundwater from collecting at the bottom and rusting the spikes. When constructing something underground drainage is very important.

In any case this is an inventive solution to a very specific type of trap. As a dungeon designer, you want to keep from relying on the same type of trap. Perhaps this is a subtle clue to you as a DM that you probably use pit traps too often.

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-22, 01:13 PM
Scrolls in the bottoms of pits seem somewhat artificial. Who's going to go around leaving scrolls in pits?


The last guy who fell in the pit, i guess?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 01:23 PM
This tactic may work against the BBEG once or twice... but they he will wise up and put this at the bottom of every pit.


Dust of Dryness
This special dust has many uses. If it is thrown into water, a volume of as much as 100 gallons is instantly transformed to nothingness, and the dust becomes a marble-sized pellet, floating or resting where it was thrown. If this pellet is hurled down, it breaks and releases the same volume of water. The dust affects only water (fresh, salt, alkaline), not other liquids.

If the dust is employed against an elemental with the water subtype, the creature must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or be destroyed. The dust deals 5d6 points of damage to the creature even if its saving throw succeeds.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 01:27 PM
This tactic may work against the BBEG once or twice... but they he will wise up and put this at the bottom of every pit.

A few rounds kill the dust. :belkar:

Who doesn't love killing something?

Waspinator
2008-05-22, 01:32 PM
I say just let them use the trick against the occasional pit trap or two, but then just use other types of traps the rest of the time that this won't work against, like magical effects triggered by the presence of a living creature.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-22, 01:33 PM
Or be a jerk and say the traps are so perfectly shut, the water is not seeping in. Or worse, the floor have a slightly tilting, and the water goes under the door, instead of down the pit.
Remember that filling a room would take a long time, even with the geyser mode.

Blanks
2008-05-22, 01:39 PM
Wow... you don't own a home, do you?

Using a decanter to find pit traps would be imbecilic, because almost every time you used it the water would seep away through cracks. This is most especially true of constructed dungeons, and even still possible in natural caverns.
Wow, you didn't read the entire thread did you ?

As I said earlier in the thread:

I dont think you factor in the amount of water we are talking here :)

We are talking 300 gallons/minute! That would have to be some serious drainage :smallfurious:

Aquillion
2008-05-22, 02:34 PM
Yes they do. Because whenever there is a place where you could place a pit trap, they soak the floor. If the water disappears, there is a hidden hole. Trap found.
That doesn't work. Dungeons are not generally water-tight, you know... the water will soak into sandy and dirt floors easily, between the cracks of stone ones, and so on. If there's another floor of the dungeon below you... well, I hope the players can breathe underwater!

(Hmm, this could be used to their advantage -- flood the dungeon, killing everything inside that can't breathe underwater. Then cast water breathing and grab the loot. Anything not waterproof -- scrolls, say -- is destroyed, though.)

Still, none of these tactics strike me as that practical. The thing is... most dungeons have, you know, residents. Abandoned ruins will usually have been thoroughly looted already; if the players want good stuff, they'll have to fight for it. Those residents will probably find the players long before four hours have passed.

Seriously, come up with a few hypothetical situations where your trick would be useful. There's some, but it's all right to reward the players for cleverness (and bringing useful items) occasionally -- I just can't see it being a general-purpose solution to traps.

And flooding to detect traps doesn't work at all, since there's no easy way for the players to tell where the water is going. Maybe there's a deep crack in the floor to an inaccessable cave, or to some sandy soil that's absorbing it. (You could let them discover a hidden cave, sure -- but they'll still have to search for the entrance, maybe use tools or bashing or magic to make an entrance. That could be fun. But they can't realistically do it all the time, only in combination with other abilities, and only when you already have some reason to suspect it (investigating every floor that isn't waterproof is not really feasible.)

It's a clever trick, but not game-breaking. If the players want to spend the cash on a decanter, go ahead and let them use it occasionally.


We are talking 300 gallons/minute! That would have to be some serious drainage :smallfurious:If you're looking at it like that... you have the opposite problems. The small cracks leading into a closed pit trap won't be very serious drainage, either. In that case, it still doesn't detect pit traps, and now the players have flooded the floor and made it difficult to move.

I just don't see a crack leading into a pit trap being particularly distinguishable from cracks in the floor that let water drip into the floor below. Neither one is going to drain noticably faster than the other.

Bayar
2008-05-22, 02:47 PM
Make the hole bottomless. Or chuck a Sphere of Annihilation in it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-05-22, 02:54 PM
The Anything of Endless Anything is going to cause huge problems the moment PCs get their hands on it. That's like rule 156 of GMing.

Defeating pit traps is the least of your worries, trust me.

Waspinator
2008-05-22, 03:10 PM
Yeah, the bigger worry will be when they try to use a few walls of force with a wall of fire and the decanter inside to create an infinite steam engine.....

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 03:29 PM
The Anything of Endless Anything

Best. Artifact. Ever.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 03:39 PM
Best. Artifact. Ever.

Best. +1'able post. EVER.

Flickerdart
2008-05-22, 03:51 PM
Guys, they could just get a Decanter and switch it on in the dungeon's entrance. Better hope the BBEG is a mole shark: that much water will either flood the dungeon or collapse it as the earth inside it is turned to mud. Then you send some (read: many) Lightning Bolts down it, and then maybe freeze all of it with some trick or another. Ice has a bigger volume than water, killing everything inside twice: once from hypothermia, once from structural damage.

Collin152
2008-05-22, 03:53 PM
Best. Artifact. Ever.

So, it's a thing, it makes things, and it can be whatever itself?

It's a Druid.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 03:55 PM
So, it's a thing, it makes things, and it can be whatever itself?

It's a Druid.

Now you know why it's an artifact!

Blanks
2008-05-22, 04:47 PM
The Anything of Endless Anything is going to cause huge problems the moment PCs get their hands on it. That's like rule 156 of GMing. I know, but It just seems a bit bogus that they can just flood the entire dungeon and then "its scuba time".

Orc cave to coral reef is just a few days :smalltongue:

That was actually another of the possibilities i was afraid of :)

I have had literally hours of fun with just my trusty eversmoking bottle.

Artanis
2008-05-22, 05:23 PM
I just want to chime in with another "put a drain in the thing". It doesn't even have to negate the decanter: as mentioned in the original post, it'll take nearly half an hour to fill even a dinky little 10' x 10' x 10' pit. That's plenty of time for SOMEBODY to notice that there's an awful lot of water running through the drainage pipes.


Edit: As for flooding the whole dungeon, there's a few problems with that, the most obvious of which is that whatever's in the dungeon is going to notice that their dungeon is getting rather damp and that literally everybody inside should go en masse and kill whatever's causing it.

Waspinator
2008-05-22, 05:55 PM
Yep. The cave full of kobolds might just think it'd be a good idea to go look outside and see what's causing the flood that is drowning them.

Randel
2008-05-22, 07:05 PM
Oddly, a while ago there was a question on the boards here asking advice on the Tomb of Horrors. Someone thought about herding sheep into the tomb and then finding out where the traps are by the splattered corpses.

Then I though "I wonder if you could get a decanter of endless water, attach it to an immovable rod, and then use it to flood the whole tomb."

Then you have the problem of waking up everything inside the tomb, ruining scrolls or other loot, having electric traps short out and make explosive hydrogen all over the place, and anything that doesn't need to breath would still be angry at you (like a lich).

Plus, if there is lava in there then you get lots of steam, acid would probably react with it in some way and create toxic fumes. Spheres of annialation just absorb everything. The floor gets really slippery, molds, oozes and plants grow with the added water (wonder if a brown mold would create ice around it... though it might die once it itself gets exposed to frozen ice).

Though, I'd guess that any dungeon made by a decent architect would have drains and pipes that go out to a sewer or river or something. All those monsters have to use the restroom sometime and regular rain would flood the place if it didn't have a drain.


As for them using the decanter to fill pit traps... like its been said before, the noise and the water leaking would attract attention and the team is sitting there for several minutes of hours. The monsters ahead have time to prepare a special surprise for the team (more nasty monsters, archers with readied actions to shoot whoever goes through the door, and all the valuable treasure gets packed and carted to another room). Plus, another team of monsters can circle around the group and surround them on both sides.

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-22, 07:22 PM
The danger of the pit trap shouldn't be the pit itself. The danger comes when the PCs are fleeing from the big angry demon that's chasing them down a corridor WITH a pit trap.

Trog
2008-05-22, 07:59 PM
Creatures come and bull rush the PCs into the pit as they are filling it. Every time they try to do this just have something attack them.

Also traps that use things such as big boulders and poisoned arrows and such are nice too. Just change your traps for a while. Or better yet send the boulder trap after them as they are filling up the pit trap.

Falling into a pit trap only to be crushed by a falling boulder = Evil DM glee.

Also, electricity is your friend. *hint hint*

Collin152
2008-05-22, 08:09 PM
Creatures come and bull rush the PCs into the pit as they are filling it. Every time they try to do this just have something attack them.

Also traps that use things such as big boulders and poisoned arrows and such are nice too. Just change your traps for a while. Or better yet send the boulder trap after them as they are filling up the pit trap.

Falling into a pit trap only to be crushed by a falling boulder = Evil DM glee.

Also, electricity is your friend. *hint hint*

A boulder trap where an empty pit would have saved your life, but with water in it, your buyoncey just brigns you back up.


It's a magic boulder, that's how.

sikyon
2008-05-22, 08:11 PM
I dont think you factor in the amount of water we are talking here :)
A few cracks or small holes won't do anything. A major pit will swallow the water but anything less will be filled instantly.

Hmmm You're probably right.

Honetsly the worst that happens is that it triggers monsters down the line to come investigate, and possibly ambush the PC's as they know something is amiss. That'd be the main problem I'd see with this tactic, is that you're sacrificing stealth.

I suggest that this ingeinious application should not be ruled out arbitrarily. Sure it puts a cramp in pit traps, but why punish your PC's for comming up with a smart solution?

Your other option is for the pit traps to have drainage to avoid this possibility, but honestly if you change anything about them now you're just being a jerk. Don't railroad your PC's into HAVING to do anything.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-23, 02:01 AM
Yeah, the bigger worry will be when they try to use a few walls of force with a wall of fire and the decanter inside to create an infinite steam engine.....
Any smart DM reminds the players it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure. The pressure is limited that which will produce 1d4 points of damage to one target per round, and never exceeds said amount.

FoE
2008-05-23, 02:25 AM
As a joke (just once!), put something in the bottom of the pit that would normally be no threat to the PCs if they simply jumped over the pit. Then, when the water rises, it brings the threat up to their level. Like ... an undead creature that floats on the water.

Ooh! Here's an idea: put a cursed object at the bottom of the pit. Your party will say "Wow! Free magic item!" when it rises to the surface, then curse when it bites them in the foot later. And it makes perfect sense as to why someone would throw a cursed item to the bottom of a pit of spikes: to get rid of it! :smallbiggrin:

Khanderas
2008-05-23, 02:44 AM
Dude, just give the players props for finding a good solution to pit traps. Are you upset that you didn't get to impale their characters on spikes? I really don't see a problem here. Chillax!
Sure once or five times, applaud a smart way to dealing with the problem.

Then it fully negates a type of challenge and the novelity wears out.

Personally I would favor the "water sinks away" approach (because it would. Else the dungeon would be flooded alittle more every time it rains) or the floating monster (for the coolness factor).
Taking 20 on trapfinding isn't that much different then flooding a floor, in terms of time and risk. and flooding only checks for pits. And the jury is out weather it just soaks away anyway.

konfeta
2008-05-23, 03:18 AM
Just have something that is incredibly toxic, poisonous corrosive, acidic, whatever. on the bottom of the pit, some hapless monster that died there earlier. That should knock the habit off the players.

its_all_ogre
2008-05-23, 05:59 AM
awesome!
a vampire was knocked into the pit and became impaled on spikes!
so there is a dead body down there, probably no more than a skeleton now.
they pour tons of water down there and it floats lose...
they grab it cause you would, it turns and slaps them for 2 negative levels!

have fun! :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2008-05-23, 06:17 AM
Scrolls in the bottoms of pits seem somewhat artificial. Who's going to go around leaving scrolls in pits?An adventurer that didn't check for traps for stepping into the pit trap and falling to his death?.

KazilDarkeye
2008-05-23, 06:19 AM
Guys, they could just get a Decanter and switch it on in the dungeon's entrance. Better hope the BBEG is a mole shark: that much water will either flood the dungeon or collapse it as the earth inside it is turned to mud. Then you send some (read: many) Lightning Bolts down it, and then maybe freeze all of it with some trick or another. Ice has a bigger volume than water, killing everything inside twice: once from hypothermia, once from structural damage.

Unless of course the BBEG is in his mountain fortress. Or has an escape route that goes above ground*

*Many villains should have multiple escape routes, just in case crap like happens.

DigoDragon
2008-05-23, 06:25 AM
Ooh! Here's an idea: put a cursed object at the bottom of the pit. Your party will say "Wow! Free magic item!" when it rises to the surface, then curse when it bites them in the foot later. And it makes perfect sense as to why someone would throw a cursed item to the bottom of a pit of spikes: to get rid of it! :smallbiggrin:

This is a brilliant idea! ^_^ Alternatively you could hide some treasure down there under a colorful corpse or something. When the players get to the treasure room in the dungeon & notice there's a chunk missing with a clue that someone took it (maybe a calling card matching the description of the corpse?) they'll realize they just drowned part of their paycheck. Yay, now we get to swim down the pit! Wait...

(Though I recommend don't do it more then once. Just once... get a chuckle out of it).

I'd say let the players fill the pits with water from their magic chamber pot. Maybe it is clever, but the time taken to fill a pit and the noise generated will allow any nearby baddies set up an ambush or a new trap so I wouldn't worry about it. Sitting around for several hours filling a pit will get BORING and after a few times the players will probably stop filling pits for an alternative idea.

In my opinion pit traps are low on the totem pole of traps anyway. :3

Yuki Akuma
2008-05-23, 06:26 AM
I just want to say one thing:

Lots and lots of a conductive material (say, water, or a huge pile of copper coins) would insulate you from any electrical attack due to conducting the electricity in several directions at once.

Not to mention that pure water (such as the stuff you'd get with a Decanter of Endless Water) is a pretty good insulator and requires quite a bit of time to ionise into a proper conductor.

Don't try to bring physics into D&D if you have no idea what you're talking about, please.

:smallmad:

And I don't see any trouble with the PCs being smart and coming up with new ways to solve problems. This is what items like the Decanter of Endless Water are for. What other use would it have?

its_all_ogre
2008-05-23, 08:01 AM
i want somebody to use the vampire idea i mentioned above! please?

i remember the 5th level ranger who found a body in a tomb and spotted a 'something' poking through the ribs and pulled it out to have a look...
freeing the bugbear rogue vampire(level 3)....
it was awesome, i just used the example rogue in the dmg too but it was fairly horrific for the pcs!:smallamused:

SilverClawShift
2008-05-23, 08:19 AM
And I don't see any trouble with the PCs being smart and coming up with new ways to solve problems. This is what items like the Decanter of Endless Water are for. What other use would it have?

Seconded.

I'm still trying to figure out why so many DMs are worried that their players might actually find a way to solve the puzzles and problems laid out before them. Isn't that the point of throwing trouble at them? To see how they handle it?
Do some DMs just not want to feel like they've been outsmarted?

Also, how many pit traps does a group deal with in their adventuring career? I think my group ends up falling intos pits once every two or three campaigns. So we deal with an average of "0.333..." pit traps in our lives. Is a magical item designed to be an extraordinary survival tool really problematic for helping with survival?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-23, 08:21 AM
Obviously you've never considered the possibility that the orcs have AMPHIBIOUS ATTACK TIGERS!

Kantolin
2008-05-23, 08:22 AM
And I don't see any trouble with the PCs being smart and coming up with new ways to solve problems. This is what items like the Decanter of Endless Water are for. What other use would it have?

Thirded. Let them solve this particular aspect of the trap problem, and applaud their creativity.

Hairb
2008-05-23, 08:34 AM
Frankly, I think the PC's should be rewarded for spending money on something that doesn't rhyme with "Fling of Flizardry" or "+2 Geen Gorpal Grongsword" for a change. There are a lot of neat wonderous items that never see light of day because of an inability to be used in combat.

Worira
2008-05-23, 08:40 AM
And, again, it's substituting a DC 10 swim check for a DC 10 jump check. Why is everyone so obsessed with preventing players from doing this?

Kami2awa
2008-05-23, 09:49 AM
Dude, just give the players props for finding a good solution to pit traps. Are you upset that you didn't get to impale their characters on spikes? I really don't see a problem here. Chillax!

Plus you can trap players in 1001 other ways which they can't detect with a DoEW.

The potentially game breaking use of a Decanter is as a rocket...

Hairb
2008-05-23, 10:31 AM
Plus you can trap players in 1001 other ways which they can't detect with a DoEW.

The potentially game breaking use of a Decanter is as a rocket...

Whoa there, cowboy. Game breaking?

I guess, only if you where to consider the following things game breaking:

Cure Light Wounds: Lets PCs survive wounds that were meant to kill them. Ensures they go into fights on full HP, obviating the need for softening encounters.
Use Magical Device: Now any idiot can use wands. Abandon ship!
Shatter: Aww crap. Now my BBEG can never use focus component spells again :(
Teleport (any): Need I say more?
And so on and so on and so on

Outrageous strawmen, convenient distortion of truth and unnecessary sarcasm aside, players do this kind of **** all the damn time and it's great. It means they're engaging with the world and exploiting the fact that they are goddamn wizards (or local wizard-equivalent; your mileage may vary, if systems persist consult a physician).

Blanks
2008-05-23, 08:10 PM
just to clarify:

Thanks for the all the comments.

My players never thought of this, im just guessing what they might do, based on what I would do.

I don't know wether or not I think this is a major problem, but I surely want to consider it.

My players are third level, and buying magic items is out of the question. WBL is something we never use. Im debating wether or not to give them a powerful magic item. As said before "anything infinite or permanent is sure to have a big influence".

Please continue debating, as all comments are helpful.

FlyMolo
2008-05-23, 08:46 PM
"Gentlemen, waterproof your pit traps."

Waspinator
2008-05-23, 10:46 PM
Any smart DM reminds the players it's a Decanter of Endless Water, not a Decanter of Endless Pressure. The pressure is limited that which will produce 1d4 points of damage to one target per round, and never exceeds said amount.
Hence why I mentioned a wall of fire. That would generate the heat to turn the water into steam for the engine.

FlyMolo
2008-05-23, 10:52 PM
Obviously you've never considered the possibility that the orcs have AMPHIBIOUS ATTACK TIGERS!

Sam, you win the thread. You just do.

HeroicSociopath
2008-05-23, 11:11 PM
I thought your problem was going to be one of your players wanted to flood the world.
http://aura0.gaia.com/photos/7/65465/large/professor_chaos.jpg

monty
2008-05-23, 11:14 PM
I thought your problem was going to be one of your players wanted to flood the world.
<image>

No, you do that with chickens.

paigeoliver
2008-05-24, 01:03 AM
You can flood the world with a decanter of endless water, however it takes one decanter 712,120 years per meter of depth on an earth sized planet and you need more than one meter of water across the entire surface area of the planet to flood the planet.

Put a decanter out in space and give it enough time and eventually it will create a solid ring of water in orbit around the sun, which over even more time will eventually coalesce into a water supergiant which will eventually pull all the other planets into it, eventually merging with the sun and eventually creating a black hole.

At least it would do that if pesky things like thrust and acceleration didn't get in the way. In reality it would go into an orbit that spirals further and further away from the sun for a few orbits before leaving a trail of water vapor across the universe at nearly the speed of light. It would be water vapor because at the speed it would quickly reach it would be spreading that 30 gallons per round over a VERY large area.

If you take a bunch of them and put them together in a manner that makes them all thrust against each other (thus keeping them from moving), then you can make water planets and do other neat tricks.

They are also REALLY good at powering fantasy spaceships.

Aquillion
2008-05-24, 04:53 AM
Sure once or five times, applaud a smart way to dealing with the problem.

Then it fully negates a type of challenge and the novelity wears out.
Why are you constantly using identical pit traps to challenge the players? That sound tedious whether they're solving them with water, search / jump checks, or whatever. Your problem there isn't endless bottles; the problem is that you need to buy Dungeonscape and come up with some interesting traps.

seedjar
2008-05-24, 02:05 PM
A few ideas:
- Floors laced with greek fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire)
- Dungeons carved into porous rock
- Pit traps dug into silt (+ flowing water = quicksand)
~Joe

PS - I think the real question should be whether or not the dungeon's pit traps should be bypassable using a decanter. Did someone build them with the decanter workaround in mind?

Blanks
2008-05-24, 03:03 PM
PS - I think the real question should be whether or not the dungeon's pit traps should be bypassable using a decanter. Did someone build them with the decanter workaround in mind?
There should be a clear ruling. Either the normal way of building pit traps makes it impossible to use this technique (filling it in) or the players can expect that it will work nearly always.
Having someone expect people to be carrying a decanter only to fill in holes breaks the suspension of disbelief... (for me)

seedjar
2008-05-24, 06:23 PM
Ruling on what? I don't understand what you're getting at. I think it's pretty clear cut for a given pit trap whether or not it's watertight. But you can build a pit trap either way - it's not like waterproofing it will stop people from falling in. If your objection is to the way that a given set of rules handles a pit trap, then just change the rules.
And I don't think that someone planning ahead necessarily breaks suspension of disbelief. If your world is so chock full of adventurers and decanters, then some big bad guy might be so sick of goodniks flooding their way out of his dungeons that he started building pits with flash-cookers at the bottom to turn the water into scalding hot steam. If that's not a reasonable possibility in your world, then it's also not reasonable to have pit traps built to counter such an exploit. (Those formed coincidentally or through natural processes are another story.) It's all about what's normal in your world. If I encountered paradoxical or world-breaking uses of decanters in my game, I would houserule that a decanter can be error-prone with continuous use and does not have an infinite, but rather an indefinite, supply of water. Infinite anything tends to spell bad news for the world making sense.
~Joe

HeroicSociopath
2008-05-24, 11:09 PM
Huh, I thought the putting the decanter in space couldn't work anyway as in space there's no gravity to bind the hydrogen and oxygen, making the decanter pretty useless and just release particles that could form into oxygen/hydrogen eventually.



Then again I'm no physics master. I'm a dropout LOL!


But then again.. there's always the rule of "it's magic, just go with it.."

monty
2008-05-24, 11:34 PM
Huh, I thought the putting the decanter in space couldn't work anyway as in space there's no gravity to bind the hydrogen and oxygen, making the decanter pretty useless and just release particles that could form into oxygen/hydrogen eventually.



Then again I'm no physics master. I'm a dropout LOL!


But then again.. there's always the rule of "it's magic, just go with it.."

The comparative magnitude of the electromagnetic attraction between the atoms in a molecule renders the effects of gravity meaningless (also, there is plenty of gravity in space, at least near stars and planets). However, the intermolecular forces in liquid water are weak enough that the drop in pressure breaks them (which is why liquids pretty much instantly vaporize in a vacuum). So a decanter in space would become a "decanter of endless water vapor." Now I'll go start collecting all those catgirl corpses.

sikyon
2008-05-25, 09:25 AM
Huh, I thought the putting the decanter in space couldn't work anyway as in space there's no gravity to bind the hydrogen and oxygen, making the decanter pretty useless and just release particles that could form into oxygen/hydrogen eventually.

Gravity doesn't bind atoms together.

FlyMolo
2008-05-25, 11:00 AM
A high-quality pit trap would be waterproof, by virtue of all the bits fitting together really well. That completely makes sense. Also, I'd throw in spikes and a produce flame trap or something at the bottom, even if I wasn't expecting PCs with decanters. They use the decanter, and foom, superheated cloud of steam. Reflex save or be horribly disfigured/ take lots of fire damage.

A flame strike trap(delayed so that ropes friends let down into the hole are fried too) at the bottom or a permanent produce flame effect would work fine. Flame strike would be especially effective. Some permanencied produce flame would work really well, because even submerged they would just slowly boil off the water, making choking clouds of steam. They'd eat oxygen too, so eventually the adventurers would suffocate. Water vapor holds no oxygen for lungs.

An eternal wand of fire trap would be pretty helpful for a BBEG. Every so often, go cast it on the bottom of all your pit traps. After a few weeks, even kicking a rock into the hole sets off at least a few. Several wands if you want increased capacity. Hmm, reading the spell description, you'd just have to stack it on a pit with a lid. Go by every day and wand it again. Expensive, but imagine the protection! If you never fall into your own pit trap, you never kill yourself accidentally.

Blanks
2008-05-25, 12:26 PM
A flame strike trap(delayed so that ropes friends let down into the hole are fried too) at the bottom or a permanent produce flame effect would work fine. Flame strike would be especially effective. No flamestrike for me. My players are 3rd level - I want to give them a challenge, not merely TPK them...


Hmm, reading the spell description, you'd just have to stack it on a pit with a lid. Go by every day and wand it again. One casting pr. "openable container", so not stackable.

But yes, firetrap is a marvelous spell :smallsmile:.

FlyMolo
2008-05-25, 01:12 PM
Make a gimped version of flame strike. Like 2d6 damage or something. And at third level, you can just leave only one fire trap on. That'll hurt enough.

Like I said, put a lid on your pit trap. They're supposed to have one anyway, and then its a container. With a lid, it's openable. It holds spikes and dead people. Anyway, once the PCs fill it with water and then cross it, the trapdoor resting on the water cracks open, and the fire trap goes off. It hurts the players and boils the water, and they all get blown down the hallway by the steam explosion.

Best of all, if there's a permanencied produce flame at the bottom, steam will build up and spontaenously blast open the trap, setting off the flame trap, vaporising more water. Shaboom.

NoDot
2008-05-26, 04:40 AM
I'm with the minority here: it's not a problem.

Hawriel
2008-05-26, 05:38 AM
wow you kinda got yourself into a small tissy about the decanter. As others have mentioned. What is the pit made out of? how is the dungeon constructed? I believe its very safe to assume that your dungeon does not have the structual integrity of a R&R tunnel going through the rocky mountants. What would the effects be on a standard mine shaft if you dragged a fire hose into the shaft and turned it on full blast for four hourse? The results could be more deadly than falling into a ten foot hole. Pointy bottom or no pointy bottom.

Now if you want a decanter with a little more power behind it take my version of the item.

I have an epic level dwarven cleric of Moradin. After finding a decanter of never ending water he was inspired to make his own. Its a beer stein that actes just like the decanter exept. 1) It makes beer (users choice appon activation of corse). 2) Its holey water.

Dwarven cleric + beer = holey beer. Dwarven cleric + decanter of endless water = stein of endless holey beer.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-05-26, 06:12 AM
Nonono, if you want to flood the world you don't use water- you use Quarterstaves! :smallbiggrin:

Armads
2008-05-26, 06:28 AM
Or you could use clubs, so you make two clubs at the same time!

Blanks
2008-05-26, 06:58 AM
wow you kinda got yourself into a small tissy about the decanter How did you get that idea? I spotted a funny sideeffect of giving my players a powerful (for their level) magical item, and made a post about it!
I'm reasonable, wellbalanced, mentally sane and very very calm...

Somehow people thing that I'm totally freaking out, when I have given no basis for saying that. Yes I'm contemplating the wisdom of giving my players a decanter. No, I'm not overly concerned, and neither is pit traps the only thing happening in my campaign. That doesn't mean it isn't a subject worth debating...

KazilDarkeye
2008-05-26, 09:07 AM
As for the whole "filling the pit with water" strategy, why not use the Bottle of Endless Sand from Sandstorm. That could eliminate even the Swim check. Sand probably doesn't drain away as fast as water might.

It is fairly useless for actually finding the traps, but odds are that whatever vermin live at the bottom of a pit can't breathe sand.

Starshade
2008-05-26, 10:25 AM
That idea of a greek fire trap some posts ago is actually clever:

- Make a pit with greek oil on bottom, light oil, who float on water.
- Make a magical igniter rune on floor of pit, who simply shoots a 1d2 flaming arrow straight up so it crash with dungeon roof when adventurers move over the trap.


Other ideas i got:

- a pit full of crocs. Plain, old crocks on bottom of a pit.

- the pit is acutally the entrance to a lair of Flamebrother Salamanders (a standard salamander "fire pit" who is on the Material Plane in this case, where they raise their young), happily going about doing stuff as feeding their kids, and occationally do work for local evil dwarfs and drow in return for payment of different kinds. That is, until bands of loonies douse their nursery with water.

- The pit goes to dangerous clockwork, who in Indy style is meant to pose a trap to ppl who can get caught up in the rolling and grinding wheels. Water flood destroy mechanism's, and the mission object is stomed flat, and rolling clockwork wheel rolls madly around killing all the NPC monsters. (this one is mercyless, no items, all NPC's dead, make shure the players SEE the wheels, maybe realize there is horizontal wheels of wood there, etc, or dungeon is ruined asap).