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View Full Version : Different HP houserules - averages and distributions



Blanks
2008-05-22, 11:32 AM
There was a thread some time ago, about different houserules. Among them were some regarding HP and how to roll them. That got me thinking (and calculating).

So mostly people seems to want to achieve this:
Limit the possibility of getting stuck with almost no HP due to bad rolls.
Keep the average HP each class gets, but perhaps raising it a little bit.
Not change the difference between the classes.

So I made a spreadsheet and ran through some of the house rules.
I looked at the following:
1 RAW (1 die pr. level, no modifications)
2 As RAW, but you may reroll once.
3 As 2, but you use a die one size smaller (d12 becomes d10 and so forth)
4 As RAW, but there is a minimum of what you can roll
5 As RAW, but everyone gets a fixed bonus pr. level (i chose 2 for my calculation)

Everywhere I used this principle:
Players are rational agents who maximize HP (IE they understand the math and are only concerned with maximizing HP).
Max HP at first level.
No difference among the classes in Con score. THIS IS NOT A BUILD THREAD!

Here is what i found:

Rule 1 (RAW) gives the following at level 20:
D12 =136
D10 =115
D8 =94
D6 =73
D4 =52

Rule 2 (reroll once):
D12 =164
D10 =138
D8 =113
D6 =87
D4 =61


Rule 3 (reroll once, smaller die):
D12 =155
D10 =130
D8 =104
D6 =79
D4 =56


Rule 4 (RAW with minimum) gives the following at level 20:
D12 =145
D10 =120
D8 =101
D6 =76
D4 =56

Rule 5 (RAW + fixed bonus) gives the following at level 20:
D12 =174
D10 =153
D8 =132
D6 =111
D4 =90

It turns out, that both rule 2+3 (the rerolls) score higher than RAW. They also makes it somewhat more unlikely that you will end up with (12+20) 32 HP as a level 20 barbarian. Yes I know that the odds for that is3,13008639655066E-21 %. Yes, I also know that all barbarians have a con bonus making it impossible.

Rule 4 makes it impossible to get below a certain threshold, without significantly changing the average. This has been implemented as a houserule in my group as a result.

Rule 5 fails in the premises. It significantly biases in the favor of the smaller dice, while raising averages significantly and not adressing the problem of low rolls at all.


I have 3 reasons for posting this:
I hope to help others who are unclear on the effect of their houserules.
I hope to generate a discussion about which houserule is better.
I really hope, that someone will look at the distribution of the different rules. I have had courses in statistics, but its been a while and I don't have any software that can really go beyond averages and the simple stuff.

Comments?

AmberVael
2008-05-22, 11:37 AM
Personally I've always thought it best just to eliminate rolling for HP altogether and replace it with an average of the die you're supposed to roll.
No one is going to feel like things were unfair to them that way.

Shatenjager
2008-05-22, 11:44 AM
We usually use the "box game."

Roll your HP and the DM does too. The DM hides his roll from the player.
The player then decides if he wants his roll or "what's in the box."

It basically always gets people better hitpoints than average, but it's also kinda fun to try to bluff a player into taking or not taking the box.

Swordguy
2008-05-22, 12:00 PM
What's the minimum value of the HD under Rule 4? It's not listed anywhere...

Don Beegles
2008-05-22, 12:05 PM
The results look pretty good, and they're more or less what you'd expect, I think, but i have one question: what precisely does reroll once mean? I assume that it means at each level, you have the oppurtuinty to reroll it you don't like your HP, but must take the second roll. It could, however, allow you to take either roll, or mean that at one level you can reroll. Which is it?

Blanks
2008-05-22, 12:38 PM
The results look pretty good, and they're more or less what you'd expect, I think, but i have one question: what precisely does reroll once mean? I assume that it means at each level, you have the oppurtuinty to reroll it you don't like your HP, but must take the second roll. It could, however, allow you to take either roll, or mean that at one level you can reroll. Which is it?
You roll normally first. If you don't like the roll, you can discard the roll and try again.

In my calculations a barbarian would always reroll if he got below 7. Then he would instead recieve the average of 6,5

@Shatenjager
The boxgame is mathematically the same as rule 2, except for the bluffing bit. But aren't you afraid of getting killed if you bluff a player into taking your "boxed" 1? :smallsmile:

@ swordguy
Sorry, I forgot to post the minimum values. They are:
D12=4
D10=3
D8=3
D6=2
D4=2
So its basicly just a third of the die size, except d4 gets raised to avoid a minimum of 1.

Swooper
2008-05-22, 12:56 PM
Personally, I just give my players max HP, but then, my monsters/NPCs get max HP as well.

With my regular DM, we roll as per RAW.

valadil
2008-05-22, 01:01 PM
Both my groups go with average rounded up. That translates to the following

d4 -> 3HP
d6 -> 4HP
d8 -> 5HP
d10 -> 6HP
d12 -> 7HP

Ne0
2008-05-22, 01:33 PM
For your 5th rule, it's no surprise the lower hit dice get better results, since +2 HP per level is a lot more for a wizard than for a barbarian. I'd suggest working with percentages.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 01:47 PM
Our group uses averages, giving lower and higher on varying levels, starting from lower on level 2, so:
d12 = 12, 6, 7, 6, 7...
d10 = 10, 5, 6, 5, 6...
d8 = 8, 4, 5, 4, 5...
d6 = 6, 3, 4, 3, 4...
d4 = 4, 2, 3, 2, 3...

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 01:52 PM
We've always used the Living Greyhawk method: Max at First, then Half+1 every other level.

Blanks
2008-05-22, 04:40 PM
For your 5th rule, it's no surprise the lower hit dice get better results, since +2 HP per level is a lot more for a wizard than for a barbarian. I'd suggest working with percentages.
I never really considered it as a rule, more of a benchmark.
I did do the percentages to see how much the wizard was favored, but sadly it isn't possible to post excel clippings here :)

Blanks
2008-05-22, 04:44 PM
Actually, im surprised how many use "just average". Perhaps i should try it sometime :)

DrowVampyre
2008-05-22, 07:08 PM
I like rule 4. I think, anyway - not sure what you use as minimum, but it's how I did things. You roll the dice as normal, but reroll until you get average or better for the die. Always worked well for my group, doing it that way.

serow
2008-05-22, 09:20 PM
My preferred style is #4, but the minimum is half.
Really really helps those poor d12 guys from screwing up.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 09:28 PM
I really dislike the idea of rolling HP, since it adds randomness to the character generation. I'm fine with randomness in the game, which is where it belongs, but if I can't affect myself whether my character is going to suck or not, there's something wrong. Also, when the 14 Con Barbarian can end up with less HP than 10 Con WIZARD in the long run (Barbarian starts at 14, Wizard at 4, but if Wizard keeps rolling 4s and Barbarian 1s, Wizard will equal him on level 10 and bypass him afterwards), something is wrong.

While that's fixable, characters with the exact same stats, feats, traits and build having different HP is just wrong. That's like rolling how many skillpoints you get each level. "Wops, our rogue here hasn't obviously been hardworking enough (rolled 1 for skills) so you'll be pretty ****ed for all the dungeons on the coming levels. Sorry."

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 09:31 PM
I just do max across the board for both players and monsters.

FMArthur
2008-05-22, 09:38 PM
I let my players pick the average or roll for it (and no, they can't default to the average if they already rolled for that level). You'd be surprised how many try to beat the odds by rolling. 3/4 of them so far are well behind their class' averages. :smallamused:

Swordguy
2008-05-22, 10:24 PM
@ swordguy
Sorry, I forgot to post the minimum values. They are:
D12=4
D10=3
D8=3
D6=2
D4=2
So its basicly just a third of the die size, except d4 gets raised to avoid a minimum of 1.

Okay. With those minimums, I'd feel comfortable using this as a new houserule. It's good protection for large-die characters who get that die as a class feature, but doesn't throw the end result terribly out of whack.

Blanks
2008-05-23, 02:10 AM
Okay. With those minimums, I'd feel comfortable using this as a new houserule. It's good protection for large-die characters who get that die as a class feature, but doesn't throw the end result terribly out of whack.I was actually very surprised when I found out how little the change was in max HP. Over 19 levels it only gives the barbarian 9 more HP.

It also means the distribution "loses the tail" in the lower direction, without affecting the rest very much. So getting high HP is still something special.

Moak
2008-05-23, 04:43 AM
Simply because both me and my players LOVE to roll HP dice...we use a strange system...I don't know if it's good or bad,it's amusing and they tend to have more than averenge HP..

d4 --> reroll if U roll 1
d6 --> reroll if U roll 1,2
d8 --> reroll if U roll 1,2,3
d10-->reroll if U roll 1,2,3,4
d12-->reroll if U roll 1,2,3,4,5