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RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 12:51 PM
I just got off the phone with a member of my gaming group (whom I haven't played with since I returned from college a couple of weeks ago), and along with me DMing the 4E Keep on the Shadowfell adventure, the group wants to keep playing my friends current 3.5 campaign. One player left because of personal reasons, leaving the 2nd level party with a Barbarian, a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Ranger. I didn't have a character in mind, but since the Rogue left, they're without a trapfinder/skillmonkey.

I'd like to play an Unarmed Swordsage (since the only martial adept I've played was a Crusader), but Trapfinding and Search/Disable Device/Open Lock are going to be necessary. So, I've been trying to figure out some ways to play a Swordsage a still get those. Which do you, the Playground, think is the best method?

Rogue 2/Swordsage X: Two levels of Rogue gains good skill points, trapfinding, SA +1d6, and evasion, plus sets me up with +1 IL. However, there doesn't seem to be much synergy, and I'd really like to focus on maneuvers than Rogue stuff.

Feat Rogue 2/Swordsage X: Gives me a feat instead of SA, but I still get the rest of the stuff I'm looking for. Not sure if it's worth it, either, though. I guess I could use the feat for Able Learner though.

Beguiler X/Swordsage X: Don't know the levels, but I'd gain the skills plus some cool spells. It could fit will with the flavor, but I'm unsure of how good it would be, and adding a spellcasting class just to get Trapfinding and skills seems a little stupid.

Swordsage 20: This would involve convincing my DM to let me get Trapfinding and the necessary skills as class skills by giving some other stuff up. Any ideas as to what to lose? I know I could drop Sense Magic and maybe delay Quick to Act (so +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, etc.), but I don't know if it's balanced or not.

Ninja (CAd) X/Swordsage X:This could work and seems like one of the better ideas, but I seem to recall the ninja class getting a lot of flak for some reason.

If there are better ideas than these, I'd love to hear those, too. I have access to Core/SRD, PHBII, all the Completes, all the Races, ToB, ToM, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Frostburn, the Fiendish Codices, BoED, MIC, some Dragonlance 3.5 stuff, and maybe a couple of others. Stats will probably be rolled using 4d6 drop lowest re-roll 1s, so I can probably get at least two reasonably high ability scores, and probably nothing under 10.

Also, a question: when the Unarmed variant for Swordsage says it gains the Monk's "unarmed damage progression," that just means the damage, right? He doesn't automatically gain Improved Unarmed Strike? Or does he? Because that makes Shadow Sun Ninja look like a much more attractive option...


Also, now that I think about it, if there's a feat somewhere that just gives me trapfinding and the necessary skills, that'd be great. The DM said I could use "any book," but I doubt he'd accept any homebrew stuff.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 12:53 PM
I actually like the Feat Rogue 2... you dont get that 1 die of sneak attack... which wouldnt really matter anyway... get a feat... and still get your skills and, more importantly... evasion.

Meat Shield
2008-05-22, 12:57 PM
I'd go with Ninja 2 / SS X. The Ghost Step ability fits right in with the SS, and the ability scores should synergize well.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-22, 01:02 PM
What about just being human, rogue 1, and take adaptive learner?

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-22, 01:05 PM
Beguillers are detailed (along with their spell list) on http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf . It wouldn't be a bad choice if you're planning on using the spells as a bonus feature rather then relying on them.

Learnedguy
2008-05-22, 01:10 PM
If I remember correctly, there's a few ninja/rogue feats that synergies with monk (ascetic stalker maybe? I think it was in either complete trickster or complete adventurer) that would let you have something something with another thing. Anyway, maybe you could persuade your DM that these also applies to unarmed swordsages?

(Someone know what feats I'm talking about? I don't have access to my splatbooks right now, so I can't check for myself. Is even any point in considering it?)

Vortling
2008-05-22, 01:11 PM
If you're going the Swordsage 20 route, try to convince your DM to let you spend a feat to get it. Because that's how much it's worth. I advise against Beguiler because of the poor synergies. What are you making your primary stat? You'll be feat starved if you're going Dex or Wis. That makes the Feat Rogue version more attractive. If you have access to Dungeonscape you could check out the Factotum. Trapfinding and all skills as class skills is very nice. If you go with one of the more Int based classes you could look into Kung Fu Genius and other similar feats that let you use Int instead of Wis for your Monk class features. Arguably the unarmed swordsage is a monk.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 01:13 PM
Doesnt a cleric with the kobold domain get trapfinding?

Make him a Kobold Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage X...

It would be -awesome-

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 01:29 PM
I second Martial Rogue. The other option would be Trapfinding (Dungeonscape) Ranger in case you don't want to lose BAB (doesn't get Open Lock though so you'll need to crossclass it). Finally, you could be a Cleric with the Kobold-domain. Any of those would get you Trapfinding and relevant skills in class (although many would lack Open Lock), but either way, you'll practically need Able Learner to make it work out.

Anyways, I'd look for feats as they tend to be in short supply for a Swordsage. Ranger, Cloistered Cleric and Martial Rogue would all be good for that. Martial Rogue is the only one with Open Lock in class though and it gets the most skills along with early Evasion, so it's a great option if you play with fractional BAB (without, you lose a point of BAB, which is annoying and should strongly consider eventual Martial Rogue 4 to avoid that). The other two classes would get you the ability to use Wands without UMD though, so they're not useless either. Up to you, really.

Oh yeah, Factotum is a fine option for Able Learners; the abilities won't be of that much use for you unless you have Int, but having ALL skills in the game is sweet.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 01:44 PM
If you're going the Swordsage 20 route, try to convince your DM to let you spend a feat to get it. Because that's how much it's worth.
That's what I'm hoping my DM will think. Hopefully he'll allow it, since it's not really game-breaking. And hopefully the party would support it, since it'd mean they have a more able trap-finder.


What are you making your primary stat?
Well, I was thinking something like Dex, Wis, Int, Con, Str, Cha or thereabouts, focusing on boosts and strikes for damage. I'd definitely go with Weapon Finesse and probably Shadow Blade also. Factotum and Beguiler are probably out, since I'm not focusing on Int (i.e., just enough to keep my skills up). I'll have to check with the Ranger thing, though. I guess I could get by without Open Lock, since we could just have the Barbarian bash stuff down once I check it for traps...

One thing I noticed just now about the Feat Rogue - it says it gains bonus feats "as a Fighter." That means I'd get two bonus feats with two levels of it, right? 1st level bonus feat, then 2nd level bonus feat, since that's when Fighters get them? Four feats (1st, human, bonus, bonus) isn't terribly bad as a Rogue 2 (especially since I could pick up Weapon Finesse with that 2nd level bonus feat). Then grab Shadow Blade at 3rd.

Draz74
2008-05-22, 01:49 PM
If you can get your DM to houserule Ascetic Stalker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Stalker,CS) to work with Swordsage instead of Monk, then I'd go the Ninja/Swordsage route.

Otherwise, I'd try getting Trapfinding allowed as a feat. It should be one anyway (and is underpowered at that). Although that still doesn't solve the skills problem, unless you can get another houserule pulled in (swap out some of the Swordsage's usual skills?).

A Scout dip could be another interesting alternative. A Swordsage will probably be mobile enough to trigger Skirmish often.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 01:54 PM
Yes, Martial Rogue is awesome. Also, Cloistered Cleric gets 3 feat-worthy effects (Domain = feat), one of which goes to Trapfinding, while Ranger gets 1 feat, FE, Wild Empathy and Trapfinding. Martial Rogue comes out ahead in that regard.

Factotum 3 (the amount of levels that would be worth taking) gets Trapfinding, 3 Inspiration, Int to damage/attack/save per inspiration, Factotum-level to skill checks per Inspiration, Int to all Dex and Str-checks (including Open Lock and Initiative), Int to AC per Inspiration and one level 1 Arcane spell. However, since Factotum gets all skills in the game, it's very much worth consideration.