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Da Beast
2008-05-22, 02:10 PM
I'm building a gestalt wizard//factotum (level 9, gray elf) for Tomb of Horrors but I've never used factotum before and I'm not sure what to do with my feats. Should I use them to enhance my spell casting or just pick up font of inspiration a bunch?

Edit: the DM might be letting me play a domain wizard, but I'm not sure what domain to pick.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 02:22 PM
Be Incantatrix. That'll free up your normal feats for Font of Inspiration, as Incantatrix pretty much gets all the metamagic you could ever need - they get like 4 bonus Metamagic feats. Also, use your Wizard slots to cover the rest of your needs; 1st and 5th can be martial feats (through Martial Wizard) or metamagic or item creation - although Spontaneous Divination over 5th would be really sweet - so use those slots to get your Wizard feats while Factotum goes Fontsane. You'll really want to eventually have 4-5 Fonts, so you'll want Wizard-levels to pretty much provide their own feats (a great reason to play Incantatrix).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-22, 02:25 PM
Font of Inspiration. Combo that with Fatespinner levels and frequent resting and you might even survive.
Abjuration, Divinitation, or Elf Generalist Sub levels are probably your best bet. Also, snag Spontaneous Divinitation at 5th if possible.

Cuddly
2008-05-22, 03:14 PM
Pick up the Abjuration domain, and at 5th level take spontaneous divination from complete champion. Now you can turn your domain spells into divinations!

Also, take font of inspiration with most of your feats. Maybe even all of them.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 03:53 PM
9th level Wizard?

Okay.

The Tomb of Horrors is primarily about traps... and a Wizard has ways of dealing with them better than a rogue.

Build Steps:
1) Your 9th level feat goes to the Elemental Summoning Reserve Feat (complete Mage).
2) One of your feats goes to a direct damage reserve feat - Fiery Burst is probably best for this purpose (take at 3rd or with your Wizard bonus Feat at 5th). Your main goal on this is to find the one with the most range.
3) Know Permanency.
4) Use Permanency on Detect Magic (or, if you can swing your caster level high enough to pull it off, Arcane Sight).
5) Know Terran (language of earth elementals).
6) Get two wands: Invisibility, and Spectral Hand (both 2nd level spells).
7) Prepare some spells to power your two reserve feats (and never cast them. Ever).

In the Tomb:
1) Watch everything for magic (hence Permenancy). If you see something magical that isn't an item (and, to be safe, even if it is), call a halt, and zap it with Fiery Burst until it's not magical anymore.
2) Nobody touches anything. At all. Except maybe the floor (and there's ways around that - bat familiar, and Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability for Floating Disk - Bat flies with good manueverability, floating disk follows, you ride on floating disk).
3) Every round you're not in an actual battle, and you don't see any unexpected magic, you do the same thing: Summon an Earth Elemental, send it running along your intended path of travel. If it springs a trap, call a halt, and send the elemental by repeatedly until you know exactly where the traps coming from. Then zap it until it's a puddle. Then send the earth elemental by it repeatedly to make sure it's dead.
4) Anything that needs to be poked, prodded, unlocked, or otherwise handled is done by a Summoned elemental. If it dies, you replace the next round and have it do things differently.
5) If a door is in your way, call a halt, cast Spectral Hand, and then cast Invisibility on the door (seriously - it affects objects) so that you know what's on the other side. If you decide you want to be on the other side of the door, don't open the door. Zap the door until it dies. But always, always, always see what's on the other side first.

Otherwise, just play as a normal Wizard//Factorum, spending your feats on whatever is appropriate - Font of Inspiration is actually pretty good for it, due to that ability to get quite a few extra actions in a round in an encounter.

Chronos
2008-05-22, 04:12 PM
3) Every round you're not in an actual battle, and you don't see any unexpected magic, you do the same thing: Summon an Earth Elemental, send it running along your intended path of travel. If it springs a trap, call a halt, and send the elemental by repeatedly until you know exactly where the traps coming from. Then zap it until it's a puddle. Then send the earth elemental by it repeatedly to make sure it's dead.Am I the only one who thinks that setting off traps repeatedly, especially in a place like the Tomb of Horrors, is a spectacularly bad idea? There are some traps which have a large enough area of effect that you'll get zapped by it along with the elemental. There are some that will cut off options for advancement or retreat. There are some that will summon or otherwise attract the attention of creatures that can either deal with the elemental plus the wizard, or which are smart enough to recognize what the real threat is, and focus on the wizard first.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 04:21 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that setting off traps repeatedly, especially in a place like the Tomb of Horrors, is a spectacularly bad idea? There are some traps which have a large enough area of effect that you'll get zapped by it along with the elemental. There are some that will cut off options for advancement or retreat. There are some that will summon or otherwise attract the attention of creatures that can either deal with the elemental plus the wizard, or which are smart enough to recognize what the real threat is, and focus on the wizard first.
Trick:
The Summonened Elemental only vanishes if it's more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn.

Each round, you advance five feet, summon an elemental at the limit of your range along your intended path of travel, and have it run along your intended path of travel. Even if corners prevent a full-out run, a lowly Earth Elemental gets 40 feet from it's summoning point with a double-move. You've got 70 feet of advance warning on any given trap. Most of them don't go that far. You can also swap out for air elementals with their fly 100 (perfect) movement rate. 230 feet of advance notice on anything not requiring you step on a particular spot, if you've a mind for it; 70 feet of advance warning on anything requiring a ground trigger. That'll get most of them.

You really want Arcane Sight over Detect Magic - Arcane Sight requires no concentration, has a range of 120 feet, and takes no time to narrow things down. Detect Magic will work, it's just a lot slower (four rounds per five-feet of travel: Three rounds to locate magical auras within 60 feet, one round to test for nonmagical traps).

And yes, while this *can* summon monsters, the monsters are usually easier to deal with. And you get advanced warning on them, too, as they'll usually react to the elemental's presence in interesting ways.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 04:23 PM
I'd frankly rather rely on the Factotum-side for traphandling. You have all the necessary class skills and with maxed Int, you'll already be better off than most. Further, you have the ability to basically ignore one trap per day with Cunning Knowledge, which gives you insane boosts to the check (not to mention, since you're already totally Int-focused, your base rolls will be awesome). As far as Open Locks goes, you get Int to Dex-checks, enough said. With your Magic to bolster your skills and to analyse things, along with Abrupt Jaunt to deal with immediate threats, you should be comparatively very survivable.

One thing worth note though that since you'll deal with skill-based challenges a lot, Font of Inspiration isn't that powerful, as you can only use Cunning Knowledge once per day for each skill (so one Lock, one Search-check and one Disable Device). It does boost your saves and AC for dealing with traps though, but such doesn't help always.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 04:27 PM
I'd frankly rather rely on the Factotum-side for traphandling. You have all the necessary class skills and with maxed Int, you'll already be better off than most. Further, you have the ability to basically ignore one trap per day with Cunning Knowledge, which gives you insane boosts to the check (not to mention, since you're already totally Int-focused, your base rolls will be awesome). As far as Open Locks goes, you get Int to Dex-checks, enough said. With your Magic to bolster your skills and to analyse things, along with Abrupt Jaunt to deal with immediate threats, you should be comparatively very survivable.

One thing worth note though that since you'll deal with skill-based challenges a lot, Font of Inspiration isn't that powerful, as you can only use Cunning Knowledge once per day for each skill (so one Lock, one Search-check and one Disable Device). It does boost your saves and AC for dealing with traps though, but such doesn't help always.

One of the uses lets you spend one point of IP to add INT to a skillcheck. Again.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 04:30 PM
I'd frankly rather rely on the Factotum-side for traphandling. You have all the necessary class skills and with maxed Int, you'll already be better off than most. Further, you have the ability to basically ignore one trap per day with Cunning Knowledge, which gives you insane boosts to the check (not to mention, since you're already totally Int-focused, your base rolls will be awesome). As far as Open Locks goes, you get Int to Dex-checks, enough said. With your Magic to bolster your skills and to analyse things, along with Abrupt Jaunt to deal with immediate threats, you should be comparatively very survivable.

One thing worth note though that since you'll deal with skill-based challenges a lot, Font of Inspiration isn't that powerful, as you can only use Cunning Knowledge once per day for each skill (so one Lock, one Search-check and one Disable Device). It does boost your saves and AC for dealing with traps though, but such doesn't help always.
A couple of the fatal traps have stupid-high Search/Disable Device DC's. With consequences for failure, you can't take 20 (and some of them would be out of range for taking 20 anyway, for most characters).

The "Wizardly Method" finds them all without a roll of consequence (the save and damage rolls for killing traps doesn't count as a roll of consequence, as there's nothing stopping you from trying again).

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 04:35 PM
One of the uses lets you spend one point of IP to add INT to a skillcheck. Again.

Huh? We must be looking at different Factotums, mine only gets:
Cunning Insight - 1 IP, add Int to attack, damage or save
Arcane Dilettante - 1 IP, spells
Cunning Knowledge - 1 IP, gain Factotum-level bonus in a skill; usable once per day per one skill
Brains over Brawn - Add Intelligence to Strength- and Dexterity-checks and skill checks.
Cunning Defense - 1 IP, add Int to AC against one opponent for one round.
Cunning Strike - 1 IP, 1d6 Sneak Attack
Opportunistic Piety - 1 IP, heal, harm undead or turn undead Wis+3 per day.
Cunning Surge - 3 IP, extra standard action
Cunning Breach - 2 IP, ignore SR and DR of target for a round
Cunning Dodge - 4 IP, ignore lethal damage
Improved Cunning Defense - Int to AC, no IP cost.
Cunning Brilliance - 4 IP, copy stuff

None that I'd know of allows adding Int to skill checks.


Jack: I know, but some traps also collapse the whole dungeon on your head, kill all characters in the chambers that haven't been closed off, awaken monsters you can't hope to beat and so on. Basically, triggering traps is a really, really bad idea even if you're far away.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 05:03 PM
Jack: I know, but some traps also collapse the whole dungeon on your head, kill all characters in the chambers that haven't been closed off, awaken monsters you can't hope to beat and so on. Basically, triggering traps is a really, really bad idea even if you're far away.
Okay, so we modify things.

1) Take 20 searching everything before touching anything.
2) Watch everything for magic.
3) Back away, and have an elemental walk over everything you've searched before going there yourself.

Takes a crazy amount of time, of course.... however:
1) If you can't find it by taking 20, and it's on your intended path of travel, you'll likely set it off anyway.
2) Most of the nastiest traps are magical - which will give them away with no roll.

Fair enough compromise?

Da Beast
2008-05-22, 05:07 PM
My friend's copy of Dungeonscape doesn't seem to have font of inspiration in it. Where can I find it and how many extra inspirations points does it give?

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 05:08 PM
And when you're in dimension travel barred dungeon, 30 levels before earth surface with just tons of corridors behind you. Your elemental sets off a trap that collapses the dungeon on you. Are you happy? Just use Disable Device. It's in the game for that reason.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 05:09 PM
My friend's copy of Dungeonscape doesn't seem to have font of inspiration in it. Where can I find it and how many extra inspirations points does it give?

Google Font of inspiration. It's a web feat.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 05:12 PM
My friend's copy of Dungeonscape doesn't seem to have font of inspiration in it. Where can I find it and how many extra inspirations points does it give?

It's in web supplement. Search Wizards Site for it. 1 per Font, so first 1, second 2 and so on.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 06:57 PM
And when you're in dimension travel barred dungeon, 30 levels before earth surface with just tons of corridors behind you. Your elemental sets off a trap that collapses the dungeon on you. Are you happy? Just use Disable Device. It's in the game for that reason.
Go through the adventure (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a) sometime. There's Search/Disable Device DC's in there that are simply stupid-high for the level it's supposedly designed for.

On page 10, there's a Search DC to locate a trap with a DC of 35.

On page 31, there's a Search/Disable Device DC for a trap listed as n/a.

On page 33, there's a Search/Disable Device DC for a trap of 32/37.

It's written for four to six adventurers of around 9th level.

At 9th, a Rogue with 18 Int, Skill Focus(Search), Skill Focus(Disable Device), max ranks in both skills, and masterwork tools has a modifier of +21. Taking 10, he'll get DC 31 stuff. Oopsie. Taking 20, he'll at least find anything with a DC of 41 or less... but Disable Device has consequences for failure, so no taking 20 there. Hope you don't attempt to disarm the wrong trap, and hope you always get rolls in excess of 10.

Oh yeah - and this is ignoring the occasional DC 45 Open Lock check (which do mean things to you when you fail).

If you attempt to go through the Tomb of Horrors using traditional roguish methods, you're very likely to lose the traditional rogue (and, quite likely, the rest of the party, too).

On the plus side, it's only the ethereal that's ... warded. The astral's fine (prepare a few copies of Dimension Door).

Also - none of the traps collapse the entire dungeon - just sections of it (listed in the trap description). And the range of those are listed - well within range for the caster using my methods to avoid. The various containment traps, likewise.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 07:04 PM
Factotum with the Int-bonuses works. 20 Int to start with, +2 item and Gloves of Thievery (or whatever), couple of them for +5-+10. You're gonna succeed with that; hence why Factotums are so good.

Also, use spoilers. This guy is gonna play the Tomb and probably shouldn't know beforehand everything that's coming.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 07:15 PM
Factotum with the Int-bonuses works. 20 Int to start with, +2 item and Gloves of Thievery (or whatever), couple of them for +5-+10. You're gonna succeed with that; hence why Factotums are so good.

Also, use spoilers. This guy is gonna play the Tomb and probably shouldn't know beforehand everything that's coming.
The Elixer of Vision (+10 Competence, 1 hour), Lens of Detection (+5 Competence while held and used), Goggles of Minute Seeing (+5 Competence while worn), and the Robe of Eyes (+10 competence while worn) help out with search. But then, that Search isn't as much of an issue to begin with, as you're permitted to take 20 on basically all the traps if you can convince the rest of the party not to touch anything or get ahead.

I'm curious where you're finding the Gloves of Thievery (or whatever) that help with Disable Device, though. Custom magic item? Not all DM's permit those.

... and no check modifier helps with the DC n/a traps. A supply of Disposable Minions limited only by time and simultaneous count, on the other hand, does.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 07:48 PM
Magic Item Compendium has Gloves of Manual Prowess or something along those lines. They're charge-operated, but only 3000 a piece so level 9 party can afford multiples - I usually stock up on 3-4 pairs before large dungeons, and get 2 asap in campaigns where I can't get Gloves of Disable Device +X. They have 3 charges each, one giving +5 to a task, 2 giving +7 and 3 giving +10. They help Disable Device, Forgery, Use Rope, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.

Note that Factotum again has much easier time; you get Dex and Int to Open Lock, so we're talking about Open Lock in the high 20s (7 Int + 5 Dex + 12 ranks + Mw. Tools is perfectly reasonable for a Gray Elf Factotum), and you can add Factotum-level once per day for ~35 bonuses. That's without magic beyond +2 Int and +2 Dex gear (or alternatively, spells from yourself/friendly neighbourhood caster). Disable Device is a notably larger problem as you don't get to add Dexterity to it, meaning you'll be only in the mid 20s normally and about 30 bonuses when trying. Basically, a Factotum is much better off here than a Rogue thanks to his class abilities.

As for those traps, we're talking about a party. There's always a Wizard, a Druid or a Cleric with summons for those traps. Also, you can bypass the N/A one through other means.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 08:04 PM
Yes, just make sure you know exactly which traps need the charges, as you don't really want to spend that +10 bonus on a comparatively easy pit trap only to run out on the actually difficult ones.

Odd that the Factorum is a better rogue than a pure rogue, isn't it. Still, works, I suppose.

Oh, and:
Do note: This guy IS the wizard, who is supposed to have the summons. You're full circle, now. And yes, you can bypass the N/A trap with other means - but for that, you need to pay rather close attention and guess the intent from the cryptic clues, or suffer the consequences. Disposable minions remove the consequences and let you try again repeatedly, effectively removing the guesswork.



A party of 4 PCs is expected to be able to take on an encounter with CR equal to party level + 4, not on CR equal to party level. It's expected to be able to take on 4 CR-equivalent encounters daily, so don't be surprised if they easily plow through the CR-equivalent Dragon that you thought would be a challenge
Only sorta. A party of 4 PCs is expected to have roughly a 50/50 chance of a rather Pyhrric victory against an encounter with CR equal to party level + 4 (that's the "someone will probably die" category).

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 08:14 PM
Yes, just make sure you know exactly which traps need the charges, as you don't really want to spend that +10 bonus on a comparatively easy pit trap only to run out on the actually difficult ones.

Odd that the Factorum is a better rogue than a pure rogue, isn't it. Still, works, I suppose.

Well yea, but then again, a Rogue is more versatile (has more skillpoints) and is a better Striker.


Oh, and:
Do note: This guy IS the wizard, who is supposed to have the summons. You're full circle, now. And yes, you can bypass the N/A trap with other means - but for that, you need to pay rather close attention and guess the intent from the cryptic clues, or suffer the consequences. Disposable minions remove the consequences and let you try again repeatedly, effectively removing the guesswork.

My point is that he doesn't need to apply that to all the traps; he's a very competent trapfinder and disarmer, so he should use those abilities, lest the whole going gets monotonous. After he's located ones, he can deduct how to deal with it.


Only sorta. A party of 4 PCs is expected to have roughly a 50/50 chance of a rather Pyhrric victory against an encounter with CR equal to party level + 4 (that's the "someone will probably die" category).

Yes, precisely. The point is, the party is expected to come out victorious; it's the proper CR for that campaign boss especially if he's alone. The reason it's in my signature is the fact that many people seem to wonder why the party beats their CR-equivalent encounters easily, while that's in fact how the whole system is designed.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-22, 08:44 PM
Well yea, but then again, a Rogue is more versatile (has more skillpoints) and is a better Striker.

More like the Rogue has more endurance, and is a better striker - while a Factotum gets fewer base skill points (8 vs. 6), there's more incentive to invest in Int (it powers most class features), he's got a bigger skill list, and with the Cunning Knowledge class ability, the Factotum can shore up any skill (once per day per skill, limited by inspiration points). With a relatively small handful of exceptions (skills used constantly or reactively - Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, sometimes UMD), the Factotum really only needs 3 ranks in the skills that the Rogue pretty much needs to max out, 1 rank in skills where the rogue needs to invest a moderate amount.

... and the Factotum can pull out save or suck/save or lose, and Direct Damage spells where the Rogue can't without expending cash to do so.


My point is that he doesn't need to apply that to all the traps; he's a very competent trapfinder and disarmer, so he should use those abilities, lest the whole going gets monotonous. After he's located ones, he can deduct how to deal with it.
So, you're saying that "I take 10 on search" or "I take 20 on search" followed by "I use one inspiration point for Cunning Knowledge on Disable Device to take 10 to disable it" for each trap doesn't get monotonous?

At least with Summon Elemental, you get to watch all the pretty traps go off on the disposable minion (or hear descriptions of how they do, anyway).

Hmm... It's the Hench Games!


Yes, precisely. The point is, the party is expected to come out victorious; it's the proper CR for that campaign boss especially if he's alone. The reason it's in my signature is the fact that many people seem to wonder why the party beats their CR-equivalent encounters easily, while that's in fact how the whole system is designed.
Yes, but the way you phrase it, it is easy to interpret as a suggestion to routinely throw encounters with an encounter level of (Party Level +4) at the party.

Eldariel
2008-05-22, 08:50 PM
More like the Rogue has more endurance, and is a better striker - while a Factotum gets fewer base skill points (8 vs. 6), there's more incentive to invest in Int (it powers most class features), he's got a bigger skill list, and with the Cunning Knowledge class ability, the Factotum can shore up any skill (once per day per skill, limited by inspiration points). With a relatively small handful of exceptions (skills used constantly or reactively - Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, sometimes UMD), the Factotum really only needs 3 ranks in the skills that the Rogue pretty much needs to max out, 1 rank in skills where the rogue needs to invest a moderate amount.

... and the Factotum can pull out save or suck/save or lose, and Direct Damage spells where the Rogue can't without expending cash to do so.

Yup, but I still wouldn't discount the Rogue.


So, you're saying that "I take 10 on search" or "I take 20 on search" followed by "I use one inspiration point for Cunning Knowledge on Disable Device to take 10 to disable it" for each trap doesn't get monotonous?

At least with Summon Elemental, you get to watch all the pretty traps go off on the disposable minion (or hear descriptions of how they do, anyway).

Hmm... It's the Hench Games!

That's the whole point, deal with traps in a variety of ways! Deal with some through good ol' disarming, some with summons and some with creativity (last one is preferred, of course, but only when possible).


Yes, but the way you phrase it, it is easy to interpret as a suggestion to routinely throw encounters with an encounter level of (Party Level +4) at the party.

Hah, that's not my problem. If a party dies because a DM misinterprets what is said in my signature, I'm going to savor the moment.

Chronos
2008-05-22, 09:38 PM
I agree that the Earth Elemental thing is handy, and a useful addition to the bag of tricks (and if there's anyone who ought to have a wide and varied bag of tricks, it's a factotum//wizard). I just don't think you should rely exclusively on it, because there are traps that it won't pick up. I don't know precisely what's in the Tomb, but it's famous for having a wide variety of traps, and I can think of at least a half-dozen different categories of traps (all of them including nonmagical specimens) for which the elemental would be useless or worse. It seems a very foolish idea to assume, a priori, that none of those half-dozen different categories shows up somewhere.

nargbop
2008-05-22, 09:52 PM
I suggest a level of arcane trickster replacing one level of factotum. Not having to fiddle with a trap directly is an incredibly good idea. [ edit ] oops. Factotums don't have sneak attack, they can spend points to do an attack like one. I've been playing a mild houserule that expending the points makes you sneak attack as a rogue of your factotum level. [/edit]
I also suggest Magic Sensitive from the Complete Mage or better Vatic Gaze from Player's Handbook II , which grant constant detect magic. Mind you, your DM will probably need you to say "I look at the room carefully with detect magic on" to indicate how you're concentrating on it.
BTW, I just looked at Mystic Backlash in Complete Mage. It's not great for this adventure, but a Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Spellsword with Mystic Backlash is fearsomely awesome in a high-magic setting.

SilverClawShift
2008-05-22, 10:49 PM
Feats for a gestalt Wizard//Factotum

First impression?

Take Toughness as every feat. You're a wizard factotum. You're a naughty god.

Eldariel
2008-05-23, 12:33 AM
First impression?

Take Toughness as every feat. You're a wizard factotum. You're a naughty god.

Naughty neutral, more like it. Swings all ways.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 12:48 AM
Use the Chaos Shuffle for an extra 6 feats, and take 2 flaws for another 2.

Nebo_
2008-05-23, 12:54 AM
Use the Chaos Shuffle for an extra 6 feats, and take 2 flaws for another 2.

Augh! I can't believe you can actually suggest this for a serious game. Nobody should ever use that trick, bar in the most high powered games. Just because you can do that doesn't mean you should.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-23, 06:15 AM
I agree that the Earth Elemental thing is handy, and a useful addition to the bag of tricks (and if there's anyone who ought to have a wide and varied bag of tricks, it's a factotum//wizard). I just don't think you should rely exclusively on it, because there are traps that it won't pick up. I don't know precisely what's in the Tomb, but it's famous for having a wide variety of traps, and I can think of at least a half-dozen different categories of traps (all of them including nonmagical specimens) for which the elemental would be useless or worse. It seems a very foolish idea to assume, a priori, that none of those half-dozen different categories shows up somewhere.
It's not so much an assumption as an analysis of the default traps in the DMG.

Basically, my listed method (Summoned Earth Elemental repeatedly running ahead, watching with Arcane Sight) finds all the default traps in the DMG (except nonmagical ones that don't trigger on stimuli, just go off periodically on a clock ... which you locate by traveling slowly). It can also be done fairly early on in the game (at great expense) with a wand of Unseen Servant, a wand of Detect Magic, and a bag of rocks.

A rogue of the same level, on the other hand, can have difficulties. Magic traps, with DC 25+spell level, and (usually) CR 1+Spell level means that most the magic traps you'll run across are rather iffy to detect and disarm at all levels up to 10th, unless the rogue invests in de-trapping rather heavily.

Chronos
2008-05-23, 11:42 AM
It's not so much an assumption as an analysis of the default traps in the DMG. Now, see, what that says to me is that the DMG features a rather anemic selection of traps. I would expect that modules would contain better traps, especially a trap-focused module like the Tomb. Everyone knows, for instance, that kobolds rig traps that trigger on anyone weighing over 50 pounds, and a small earth elemental would have no difficulty setting that off. But wouldn't kobolds also rig up traps to trigger on anyone over 4 feet tall? The elemental would just walk right under that. Or what about traps which trigger on the second or third creature to step on them, or which have a random chance of going off (this last one being especially common for natural "traps" like weak, rotting floorboards). Or then there are traps which have consequences which aren't easily reversed: If a trap causes a 10 foot section of the corridor to collapse, then I hope that you weren't planning on going down that corridor after your elemental. Or traps that are triggered by something that an Earth Elemental can't do... The current DMG might not list any traps that attack the person unlocking a door, but previous editions certainly did. Even if they're not listed in the DMG, yes, I do expect this sort of thing.

Aquillion
2008-05-23, 01:55 PM
It's not so much an assumption as an analysis of the default traps in the DMG.

Basically, my listed method (Summoned Earth Elemental repeatedly running ahead, watching with Arcane Sight) finds all the default traps in the DMG (except nonmagical ones that don't trigger on stimuli, just go off periodically on a clock ... which you locate by traveling slowly). It can also be done fairly early on in the game (at great expense) with a wand of Unseen Servant, a wand of Detect Magic, and a bag of rocks.Alarm.

It's the most basic magical trap, period. And setting it off with a minion usually does you no good at all.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-23, 08:00 PM
Alarm.

It's the most basic magical trap, period. And setting it off with a minion usually does you no good at all.
It's also magical. Hence Arcane Sight. My earth elemental has an effective 70 foot range. Arcane sight, 120. Oh, look - a faint abjuration. How many Dispels did I prepare today ... eh, let's just go around (begins melting wall with Fiery Burst). If I'm using the low-level version (Detect Magic + Unseen Servant with bag of rocks), it's a 25 or 30 foot range on the Unseen Servant, 60 on the Detect Magic. Same thing.

Now, you can design traps specifically against the tactic - as Chronos mentioned - a trap that goes off the third time someone passes through a particular square, wire traps based on height (which stops spoiling the tactic once you're using Medium elementals, but that requires 6th level spells when using Summon Elemental to do it), the use of Magic Aura to foil Arcane Sight, and so on, will foil the Wizatd tactic.

But then, the DMG also has listed rules for increasing mechanical trap search and Disable Device DC's with no limit (just more expense, and possibly CR). The Rogue who can find every trap in the DMG walks blithley into the purely mechanical DC 50 trap. Which does lots and lots of damage. Or maybe just collapses a chunk of the dungeon on his head, including the rest of the party.

Now, tell me - what's the practical difference between the countering the Wizard method vs. countering the Rogue method, from a player perspective? In the one, the trap is specifically designed against the tactics in use. In the other, the trap is specifically designed against the tactics in use (assuming, for the moment, that the Wizard is not stepping on anyone else's toes in doing this, as there is no proper skillmonkey in the party).

Fundamentally, traps are dull if encountered alone. Where they make things interesting is in combination with opposing critters: the undead in the room where the floor is an Inflict Light Wounds trap, the BBEG at the end of a checkerboard throne room where traveling in a straight line means you hit a pit trap, and so on.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 08:05 PM
Augh! I can't believe you can actually suggest this for a serious game. Nobody should ever use that trick, bar in the most high powered games. Just because you can do that doesn't mean you should.

He's playing a gestalt wizard//factotum to do ToH and with Grey Elf as his race. It's not exactly a low powered game.

AmberVael
2008-05-23, 08:15 PM
Emperor Tippy is a firm believer in SM rule 37, obviously.

There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload."

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 08:28 PM
Emperor Tippy is a firm believer in SM rule 37, obviously.

There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload."

Yep.

In fact I'm a firm believer in all of the following:
1. Pillage, then burn.
4. Close air support covereth a multitude of sins.
6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
8. Mockery and derision have their place. Usually, it's on the far side of the airlock.
9. Never turn your back on an enemy.
11. Everything is air-droppable at least once.
12. A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
13. Do unto others.
16. Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has teeth.
21. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow.
27. Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
29. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.
30. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
31. Only cheaters prosper.
34. If you’re leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
35. That which does not kill you has made a tactical error.
36. When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support.
37. There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload."

Chronos
2008-05-23, 08:32 PM
The Rogue who can find every trap in the DMG walks blithley into the purely mechanical DC 50 trap.The rogue may walk into the trap, but I'm of the opinion that no rogue should ever blithely walk into anything. If you're suspicious of the room, corridor, door, or whatever, then after you search and find nothing, then you prod it more with your ten-foot-pole, or your disposable earth elemental if you have one, or whatever. If you ever encounter a trap that can't be detected by any means whatsoever, then you're screwed, because it means your DM hates you (or, in-character, you would say that the fates hate you, or whatever). If a trap is detectable by some means, though, you want to have that means available, whatever it is. That means having a variety of methods at your disposal for dealing with traps. Sure, that elemental is one such method, and the Trapfinding class feature is another.


On the question of the Dark Chaos shuffle, meanwhile, the part that I don't get is, if you're going to allow it to be used with bonus feats, then why would you settle for any given finite number of feats? There exist feats which, in effect, grant you a bonus feat. Take one of those, shuffle the bonus feat, then shuffle the original feat.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 08:36 PM
On the question of the Dark Chaos shuffle, meanwhile, the part that I don't get is, if you're going to allow it to be used with bonus feats, then why would you settle for any given finite number of feats? There exist feats which, in effect, grant you a bonus feat. Take one of those, shuffle the bonus feat, then shuffle the original feat.

If you aren't specifically granted the feat you can't shuffle it. Thats why a fighter, for example, can't shuffle his Martial Weapon Proficiency while an elf can shuffle his. The fighter gets proficiency as a class feature while the elf gets the actual feats.

So if 1 feat actually grants another feat then you can shuffle both (in fact one way to get more feats is to shuffle the free one given to you when you get a legacy weapon) but if it only gives you the effect of another feat, no dice.

Da Beast
2008-05-23, 08:41 PM
Here's what I have so far. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=55026) Mostly finished except for items. As for the chaos feat thing, no one in my group has Fiendish Codex (That the right one? I'm don't know much about that particular trick).

We only have two players and a DM, so we're both running one gestalt character and one normal character. My second character is going to be straight swordsage for the ability to punch through solid objects. The other guy is running Bard 9//Shaman 5/Marshal 2/Arcane Duelist 2 (Cha to everything including some of my skill checks) and a cleric/radiant servant of Pelor to put the party back together.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-23, 10:15 PM
The rogue may walk into the trap, but I'm of the opinion that no rogue should ever blithely walk into anything. If you're suspicious of the room, corridor, door, or whatever, then after you search and find nothing, then you prod it more with your ten-foot-pole, or your disposable earth elemental if you have one, or whatever. If you ever encounter a trap that can't be detected by any means whatsoever, then you're screwed, because it means your DM hates you (or, in-character, you would say that the fates hate you, or whatever). If a trap is detectable by some means, though, you want to have that means available, whatever it is. That means having a variety of methods at your disposal for dealing with traps. Sure, that elemental is one such method, and the Trapfinding class feature is another.

See post 4356730 on page 1. I already suggested that. People kept arguing with me.

You roll your search check, roll high, and find no traps. Most people will be reasonably confident there's no trap there, so everyone continues. That's standard de-trap protocol, and will cover most level-appropriate standard traps. If you don't have a DM that's specifically countering your methods, you'll be fine 99% of the time.

You don't see any magic, so you send your elemental through, and nothing happens. Most people will be reasonably confident there's no trap there, so everyone continues. That's wizard de-trap protocol, and will cover most level-appropriate standard traps. If you don't have a DM that's specifically countering your methods, you'll be fine 99% of the time.

The vast majority of counter-arguments to the Wizard method amount to the DM specifically countering the method. No matter what you're doing, if the DM is specifically countering you, you're up a creek anyway, even using traditional methods. Combining them doesn't help, because there's no particular reason why the DM can't combine counters (think DC 100 mechanical trap that goes off after the third pass - no method will find that without cheesy methods or really high levels).

When the DM is not specifically countering, the Wizard method I outlined is more effective at locating traps than the standard Rogue-method.

When the DM is specifically countering, it doesn't matter which method you're using, you lose regardless.

The thing is, everyone who's suggested why the Wizard method won't work is essentially suggesting the DM specifically counter the Wizard method (or making suggestions that don't actually cause it to fail) - and not doing the same thing to the Rogue method when evaluating that side. It's annoys the fair debater in me.

Chronos
2008-05-23, 11:04 PM
21. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow.Personally, I'm fond of "Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life."

Jack, those might be the standard protocol for a rogue and for a wizard, but for a wizard//factotum in the Tomb of Horrors, the standard protocol is more like, you scan for magic, and find none. So you take 20 on a search check, and still find none. So you send an earth elemental through, and still nothing happens. So then you climb aboard your floating disk, and proceed through as carefully as possible without touching anything, because you still haven't found the trap. You don't use one method to replace the other; you use as many methods as you have available, all to supplement each other.

Chronicled
2008-05-23, 11:06 PM
I'm reminded of this (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=42), and the next few after it.

Eldariel
2008-05-23, 11:45 PM
The vast majority of counter-arguments to the Wizard method amount to the DM specifically countering the method. No matter what you're doing, if the DM is specifically countering you, you're up a creek anyway, even using traditional methods. Combining them doesn't help, because there's no particular reason why the DM can't combine counters (think DC 100 mechanical trap that goes off after the third pass - no method will find that without cheesy methods or really high levels).

Except your DM may actually want to make Rogue's trapfinding useful and just counter one. DM not allowing Wizard to find all traps simply means you need a Rogue, while DM countering both means your DM was out to kill you. That is, no good DM is gonna make traps you avoid, but many will make traps elementals can't scout for you. Point is to keep trapfinding useful, and to keep traps interesting instead of just summon baits; that isn't fun for anyone and the game is meant to be fun so most DMs probably just ignore traps solvable like that.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-24, 12:07 AM
Jack, those might be the standard protocol for a rogue and for a wizard, but for a wizard//factotum in the Tomb of Horrors, the standard protocol is more like, you scan for magic, and find none. So you take 20 on a search check, and still find none. So you send an earth elemental through, and still nothing happens. So then you climb aboard your floating disk, and proceed through as carefully as possible without touching anything, because you still haven't found the trap. You don't use one method to replace the other; you use as many methods as you have available, all to supplement each other.
Between posts 4356508 and 4356730 I already suggested that. People kept arguing with me.

Oh, and depending on the DM, you'll need Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and a bat familiar (for the good manuverability) to pull that off properly - Floating Disks follow, they don't lead, so you'll need something flying ahead with at least good maneuverability to tie them to.

Except your DM may actually want to make Rogue's trapfinding useful and just counter one. DM not allowing Wizard to find all traps simply means you need a Rogue, while DM countering both means your DM was out to kill you. That is, no good DM is gonna make traps you avoid, but many will make traps elementals can't scout for you. Point is to keep trapfinding useful, and to keep traps interesting instead of just summon baits; that isn't fun for anyone and the game is meant to be fun so most DMs probably just ignore traps solvable like that.
Thing is, traps solveable with roguish Trapfinding are actually less interesting. Roll (or take 10, or 20) to find, roll (or take 10) to disarm. Trap doesn't show up as more than a blip. What's interesting there? With summon baits, you get to "see" the cloud of dust.

If you get all the traps in the tomb, the place is a lot less interesting - as it's half trap. A great many of the traps in the tomb, though (especially the interesting ones) are rather fatal, cutting the adventure short. With summon bait, you get the best of both - the traps go off in their interesting manners, and it doesn't cut the adventure short.

Also, when there's no other dedicated trapfinder in the party (and, with Brennus having listed his party makeup in post 4362190 on page 2, this applies to the specific case in question, as he's pretty much the only one in the party with the ability to deal with traps) you're not stepping on the rogue's toes. Trapfinding, however done, isn't particularly overpowered. Specifically countering non-traditional methods of trapfinding when said method isn't stepping on anyone's toes is just punishing creativity.

Eldariel
2008-05-24, 12:12 AM
Thing is, traps solveable with roguish Trapfinding are actually less interesting. Roll (or take 10, or 20) to find, roll (or take 10) to disarm. Trap doesn't show up as more than a blip. What's interesting there? With summon baits, you get to "see" the cloud of dust.

Yes, but it's still taking a lot away from Rogue if you allow others to deal with traps. My personal preferred method of making traps is to make traps that tend to require a Search-check to find, however aren't solved by a simple die roll but rather some thinking and then maybe a Disable Device or alternative means built into the dungeon. More work? Yes. More fun? Definitely. That's what Tomb of Horrors is about too; keep your mind sharp and stay on a lookout and you can solve most traps without ever rolling Disable Device or running an Elemental there.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-24, 12:28 AM
Yes, but it's still taking a lot away from Rogue if you allow others to deal with traps. My personal preferred method of making traps is to make traps that tend to require a Search-check to find, however aren't solved by a simple die roll but rather some thinking and then maybe a Disable Device or alternative means built into the dungeon. More work? Yes. More fun? Definitely. That's what Tomb of Horrors is about too; keep your mind sharp and stay on a lookout and you can solve most traps without ever rolling Disable Device or running an Elemental there.
1) There is no other trapfinder in this party. He's not taking anything away from anybody.
2) Puzzle traps are only good traps if the players
a) Like them
b) Get them with the clues laid out

2a is a simple matter of asking the players.
2b is a much trickier proposition. Something that'll seem sufficient to one designer may make no sense at all to a player. When the traps kill the character for not getting it exactly as expected, it gets rather frustrating. Especially when (such as in the case of the ToH) the clues are reasonably easily missed (there's a non-trivial spot check involved to find the "good" one) or there are red herrings about that'll get your character killed if you trust them (as in the case of the Tomb), and no real way to distinguish them without advanced knowledge (cheating) or experimentation with things that kill your character if you get them wrong (as in the case of the Tome of Horrors).

Eldariel
2008-05-24, 12:42 AM
1) There is no other trapfinder in this party. He's not taking anything away from anybody.
2) Puzzle traps are only good traps if the players
a) Like them
b) Get them with the clues laid out

Yes, the Tomb is lethal, but it's not necessary my idea of a perfect Dungeon (rather, a really crazy game). I have yet to meet a group of non-hack'n'slash players which wouldn't enjoy solving occasional puzzles and putting some brainwork into figuring out which wires to cut and how to disarm/avoid what kinds of traps and where exactly to apply that disable device-check; I often give them a chance to figure out what kind of a trap they're dealing with (provided that they found it) and the rogue will have to decide what parts of the trap he'll start disabling; that makes it more than just a mere roll, that allows the player to participate and makes the whole deal much more exciting.

Da Beast
2008-05-24, 03:41 PM
My DM actually approved chaos shuffling my feats. I'm trying to pick between spell penetration, skill focus (disable device), greater spell penetration, font of inspiration a few more times or the one that lets arcanists cast in armor (battle caster?)

Does a gray elf conjuration domain wizard fate spinner gestalt factotum who chaos shuffled his feats for font of inspiration sound too cheesy?

Temp.
2008-05-24, 03:50 PM
...font of inspiration a few more times...Ooo! Pick that one. Extra actions are always the best choice.


Does a gray elf conjuration domain wizard fate spinner gestalt factotum who chaos shuffled his feats for font of inspiration sound too cheesy? Absolutely, but the rest of the group is probably playing under the same rules. There are no problems if it doesn't imbalance the party.

Chronos
2008-05-24, 04:24 PM
Absolutely, but the rest of the group is probably playing under the same rules. There are no problems if it doesn't imbalance the party.I'm having a difficult time coming up with anything short of Pun-Pun that's comparable to that. Maybe a planar shepherd, if there's a plane in your cosmology that has fast time and wish-granting creatures.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-24, 04:58 PM
I'm having a difficult time coming up with anything short of Pun-Pun that's comparable to that. Maybe a planar shepherd, if there's a plane in your cosmology that has fast time and wish-granting creatures.

A grey elf domain generalist wizard 5 using a Butterfly Familiar, both elven sub levels, Spontaneous Divination, Incantatrix 4, Chaos shuffling his elven racial feats.

On the other side either have Factotum or Fighter (and shuffle the fighter bonus feats).

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 05:00 PM
Where/what is this butterfly familiar?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-24, 05:04 PM
Where/what is this butterfly familiar?
Dragon, it gives a bonus to Spellcraft.

Oh, and I should add: PaOed into a Planetar.

Eldariel
2008-05-24, 06:19 PM
While we're at it, Cheesewrought Great Wyrm Kobold starting to pick up Epic feats from level 1. With some tricks, it should be possible to take Epic Spellcasting pre-Epic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-24, 06:58 PM
While we're at it, Cheesewrought Great Wyrm Kobold starting to pick up Epic feats from level 1. With some tricks, it should be possible to take Epic Spellcasting pre-Epic.

Actually no. The 24 ranks in Spellcraft make it impossible. There is no way to get more than Level+3 ranks in a skill.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-24, 07:04 PM
Actually no. The 24 ranks in Spellcraft make it impossible. There is no way to get more than Level+3 ranks in a skill.

It is, however, possible to arrange for things like Additional Magic Item Space, Armor Skin (pointless, with the non-epic Improved Natural Armor feat in the monster Manual...) Blinding Speed (Pointless, with the Boots of Haste), Bonus Domain, Chaotic Rage, and so on, earlier than 21st with that particular loophole.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-24, 07:21 PM
It is, however, possible to arrange for things like Additional Magic Item Space, Armor Skin (pointless, with the non-epic Improved Natural Armor feat in the monster Manual...) Blinding Speed (Pointless, with the Boots of Haste), Bonus Domain, Chaotic Rage, and so on, earlier than 21st with that particular loophole.

Oh, agreed. You can get any epic feat that doesn't have a skill requirement pre epic. Like Great Intelligence, which you can use to get your base intelligence over 50 at level 20.

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 07:25 PM
Dragonwrought desert kobold is pretty good, about on the same level as gray elf. It only gets a total of one bonus feat from weapon prof., spending the other one being dragonwrought, but the stat boosts are better: -4 str, +2 dex, +3 int, +1 wis, +3 cha.

Then if you pick up loredrake, greater draconic ritual and spellhoarding, it's casting at +2 wizard levels.

Btw, does spellhoarding let you counter ANY spell (even cleric or druid spells) and add it to your hoard?

Temp.
2008-05-24, 11:22 PM
I'm having a difficult time coming up with anything short of Pun-Pun that's comparable to that. Maybe a planar shepherd, if there's a plane in your cosmology that has fast time and wish-granting creatures. Maybe a Half-Elf Paragon/Marshal/Warlock/... under strict interpretations of Diplomacy? Or other FoI monstrosities?

But those are definitely unlikely. If/when there are balance problems, don't be a jerk; be willing and good-natured about nerfing yourself if it's going improve the game.

Chronos
2008-05-24, 11:47 PM
Actually no. The 24 ranks in Spellcraft make it impossible. There is no way to get more than Level+3 ranks in a skill.Actually, there is, if you can somehow manage to also be a mind flayer. With the Illithid Savant class, you can gain the skill ranks of any brain you eat, even if that would put you over 3+level. Which reduces the problem to a simple matter of defeating an epic wizard before you reach epic level, so you can eat his brain. Easy as pie.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-24, 11:55 PM
Actually, there is, if you can somehow manage to also be a mind flayer. With the Illithid Savant class, you can gain the skill ranks of any brain you eat, even if that would put you over 3+level. Which reduces the problem to a simple matter of defeating an epic wizard before you reach epic level, so you can eat his brain. Easy as pie.

Do you qualify for Illithid Savant if you are PaOed into an Illithid?

Cuddly
2008-05-25, 12:00 AM
Actually, there is, if you can somehow manage to also be a mind flayer. With the Illithid Savant class, you can gain the skill ranks of any brain you eat, even if that would put you over 3+level. Which reduces the problem to a simple matter of defeating an epic wizard before you reach epic level, so you can eat his brain. Easy as pie.

Well, you *could* potentially intercept
a) another illithid's brain headed to the Elder Brain
b) buy an epic caster's brain in a brain jar (yeah right)