What are you going to miss most about 3rd Edition?

[Kyeudo]

First, let me say this is not a thread for griping about Fourth Edition. We have enough threads about that already.

Second, this is not a thread to proclaim how great Fourth Edition is going to be.

Now that those are out of the way, what is this thread for? This is for those of you who intend to switch to Fourth once it comes out, but feel there are a few things that 3rd did better that you are going to miss.

Personaly, I'm going to miss the intuitive multiclassing system of 3rd Edition and prestige classes. Using feats to snag abilities from other classes just doesn't have the same simplicity to it, although I can see why they went with the class model they did.

Paragon Path's seem all well and fine, but there's something about taking a PrC and being able to call your character a Bone Knight or a Scarlet Corsair to make it different from the last fallen paladin or seafaring rogue you played. Paragon Paths just don't seem to need the same comitment of character resources that Prestige Classes do, so anyone can end up taking that Path with no forethought required.

Anyone else have things they are going to miss?

[Wooter]

I'm going to miss the bard. They'll probably make a new bard later, but what am I supposed to do until then?

[Eldariel]

I'm gonna keep playing with the parts I enjoy in 4e. It'll be simple enough to convert everything there. Anyways, what I'd miss the most if I didn't use them in 4e:

-Psionics: 3.5 Psionics are an awesome system and make for a great replacement for Vancian spellcasting in a world where it makes sense.
-Tome of Battle: Never before has playing martial characters been so fun. While there's still some room for improvement (what about the archers?! And the multiclassing rules could use some work), it's definitely the best thing to happen to D&D over 3.X.
-Multiclassing and Prestige Classes: I think the system was great and they just made classes poorly in regards of it (or they didn't think of it when making them). With some reworking of the classes themselves (most notably axing all traditional casters and using Psionics instead, and axing traditional melee for Initiators), the system works flawlessly, is intuitive, logical and has room for awesome character concepts in Prestige Classes.
-Races: I like the way the most races are given (although not the fact that core Elves sucked), and the fact that by toning feat power down a bit and making prerequisites easier, all of them become more or less balanced.
-Monster Rules: It's extremely intuitive to convert monsters in playable races and there're simple rules for making the tougher and meaner, vs. the smaller and weaker versions of the same monster. Also, players and monsters mostly play by the same rules, which in itself is quite fun.
-A bunch of classes: Swordsage, Druid, Cleric (the old one was awesome fun), Factotum, Artificer, Bard, Scout, Binder, all incarnum and psionic classes are extremely enjoyable, if some needing some tweaking.

[JaxGaret]

I'm going to miss the bard. They'll probably make a new bard later, but what am I supposed to do until then?

Not much. Maybe play a Warlord multiclassed into Rogue or Wizard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most of it, which is why I won't (in all likelihood) be converting.

I like a lot of the magic system. I like multiclassing and PrC's. My only real gripe was with the melee classes and ToB fixed that up nicely.

[The Necroswanso]

Nothing. If my DM doesn't change his DMing style there will be no need, or want, to switch.
But, in the case that my DM evovles, and we do, I will miss the Bard. I will also miss the 15 books I purchased that my jackass DM made useless.

[Xyk]

The gnome. He will be in my thoughts...

[quillbreaker]

Lateral thinking.

I've gathered that 4th edition aims to remove some of the harder to adjudicate or unpredictable abilities, both to simplify running the game and to ease the conversion to a computer game (to get that mad MMO loot).

So the powers that you have available will probably be simple powers that do simple things... wave goodbye to wish, magic jar, probably teleport, probably flight, and so on and so forth. Expect your ability to solve problems in unexpected ways to drastically shrink with 4th edition, because I doubt any ability without a reasonably simplistic mechanic will appear. There will still be ways to think outside the box ... but not nearly as many ways out of it.

[The Necroswanso]

Gnome is supposedly listed in the MM.

[Reinboom]

Multiclassing.
This will be the first thing houseruled differently, I believe, for me.

Benign Transposition. I hope this gets put in, in someway, officially.

The extensive number of books, that's been milked to death. Yes, I like this aspect of 3.5.


The pretty ferret mage on complete mage's cover. :smalltongue:

[Edea]

Wizard dominance :P. 'Cuz trust me, it's gone, lol.

[Reel On, Love]

My utter and complete mastery of the rules.

[Inyssius Tor]

The gnome. He will be in my thoughts...We've been told that the Monster Manual gnome is not only playable, but freaking hard-core (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4226373&postcount=10).

I will miss the ability to hand out new spells as treasure to my spellcasters whenever I want.

[ShadowSiege]

Atropals as gigantic aborted god fetuses. Now they're... I dunno what. They only had a picture of one in Worlds and Monsters. It still looked like Something That Should Not Be, but it just isn't the same when it is proportioned similar to a full grown human adult.

PrCs will be missed, but hopefully paragon paths will live up to their legacy.

[Trog]

The money I spent on the books.

Other than that, the bard. Though the Warlord will likely fill that void for me.

Oh, and as a DM? The Vampire Blackguard. Nasty freakin' piece of work combining those two things. :smallamused:

[Indon]

Nothing, I won't be playing 4'th edition with any setting I don't feel is well-suited to 4'th edition.

[ahammer]

I will miss the ability to hand out new spells as treasure to my spellcasters whenever I want.

from what I understand you will still be able to do this.. the spells are daily but the wisard can pick what spells they want each day up to so many

[Collin152]

Referrign to the edition with a .5 at the end.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm going to miss all the time I've spent building characters that I never got around to playing.

I'm going to miss the books as I sell them.

I'm going to miss playing in a campaign, since I'm going to be the 4e DM.

[Starbuck_II]

Psionics till it comes out
Bard till it comes out
Snake Darts spell from Wu Jen spell list.
Overpowered stuff in Core (okay not really)
Wasting time building a character instead of playing it.

[Overlard]

The dozens of splatbooks. I've promised myself I'm gonna stick to core this time around.

[EvilElitest]

technically i'm reallying missing this from 2E, but it is now totally gone, the sense of complexity. Oh who am i kidding, almost all of it
from
EE

[Zeta Kai]

I think that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52317) sums up my feelings about the end of 3.X edition.

[FMArthur]

I'm going to miss the Factotum, the Swordsage, and the Chameleon. These are my all-time favourite classes, and it might be a long time before they come up with 4E versions of these beautiful classes or some equivalents (probably less for the Swordsage). The advantage of sticking with the edition with more books for the time being is that I don't have to be a boring core class, because there are so many things out there that I can't help but find something that fits my playstyle way more specifically.

[Sanzh]

Although there's somewhat in 4.0, I'll miss the Warblade. I've gone through three-ish campaigns, and each time I've played a Warblade and still had fun (not to mention remaining competent in comparison with the casters).

[Solo]

I shall miss the powergaming.

4th edition, being a bastion of balance, will put a stop to all the powergaming I know and love.

For about 10 minutes.

[EvilElitest]

I shall miss the powergaming.

4th edition, being a bastion of balance, will put a stop to all the powergaming I know and love.

For about 10 minutes.

you don't need to, your powerful by the get go
from
EE

[monty]

I shall miss the powergaming.

4th edition, being a bastion of balance, will put a stop to all the powergaming I know and love.

For about 10 minutes.

You're giving the powergamers ten minutes? That's generous. I'd give them two.

Personally, I'm not planning to convert unless there's some really good reason for me to do so. I didn't spend all that effort learning obscure rules and compiling a gigantic book collection just to make it obsolete.

[Solo]

you don't need to, your powerful by the get go
from
EE

When everyone is a super...no one will be.

Hahahaha!

[ideasmith]

You're giving the powergamers ten minutes? That's generous. I'd give them two.

Just how quickly do you think powergames can read?

[Reel On, Love]

Just how quickly do you think powergames can read?

Personally, I took the Born in Soviet Russia flaw, and used the bonus feat to get a regional feat from a campaign setting. Between that and the synergy I've wrung out of my skill points, I read pretty dang fast.

[Solo]

Just how quickly do you think powergames can read?

I have a reading speed of ungodly fast.

[Reel On, Love]

Instead of reading, I use an interpretation of the Spot rules that allows me to just see what I want.

[Solo]

Instead of reading, I use an interpretation of the Spot rules that allows me to just see what I want.
Just like our Great Leader?

[Collin152]

I have a wisdom penalty. I'm lucky if I notice that I'm talking.
Reading presents issues.

[wodan46]

Nothing, cause the only D&D I've played was 1 run through of Baldurs Gate under 3.5e rules as a low level squishy wizard (AGH my hit point), and 2 failed pBp thingamabobbers here. However, reading the 3.5e rulebook and comparing it to what's known about 4e, 4e is drastically better.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just like our Great Leader?

Exactly. Bow before the great leader. :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

When everyone is a super...no one will be.

Hahahaha!

well you only have 6 supers
from
EE

[Swordguy]

Just how quickly do you think powergames can read?

It depends. Are they reading to themselves, or having mommy read it to them?

[Badgerish]

the druid - mainly for it's utter jack-of-all-trades abilities (and it's ability to shapeshift into no-finesse giant combat monsters)

enlarge person - this is such a great spell! lasts a decent length of time, makes a significant tactical change early on (nice advantages but some disadvantages as well), can be cast on your minions team-mates

divine spell lists - "what spells do you know?" "all of them" yes it was cheesy and overpowered, but it was great having all those options and being able to change them every day.

unified PC/NPC rules - it's a lot of rules to work through, but they do make sense in how they link together


I'm still looking forward to 4th though, bring on a dose of heavy-metal-awesome for everyone

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure yet, but based on previews I believe that several character concepts will simply not be possible under 4E rules. I will miss those. There appear to be dozens of things that a low-level cleric, druid, or wizard can do in 3E, that won't be allowed any more in 4E; and I'm not talking about the overpowered save-or-lose stuff, but lots of versatility. I like versatile characters, but in 4E every PC appears to be exactly as versatile as the next one.

[Moak]

I second divine spell list...because is something that follow me from OD&D,and I always loved them.

Also...

Incarnum. Because I simply love Incarnum mechanics,and it seems that they will be gone...forever :P

Also Shadowcaster and Truenamer fluff...even if I hope that somehow they will be back BETTER...like binder merged with the warlock...

Psi 3.5,also...

And the multiclass/PrC system. The new one seems more easy and I like it...but I always loved PrC,expecially the ones that merge different magic system (Nocturmancer and Sapphire Hierarc over all the other ones...)

[Morty]

Hmmm, let's see.
-Vancian spellcasting
-Great Wheel
-Blood War
-Casters and warriors using different subsystems
That's preety much it.

[MorkaisChosen]

The chance to say the following two things (both from Tome of Battle):

"I hit for 2d6+119 damage."

"I take my turn as an immediate action."

[Reinboom]

Hmmm, let's see.
-Great Wheel
-Blood War
That's preety much it.

Fluff, always easy to houserule. I rarely complain about fluff unless it's married to the mechanics.

[Oslecamo]

The chance to optimize untill my eyes start to bleed.

The old multiclassing rules.

Monsters wich can take feats and as much and diferent class levels as I damn please.

Looking for cool combos.

Every class having it's own rules.

[Gorbash]

My utter and complete mastery of the rules.

Oh, I totally agree with you here. But, that's just one of the reasons why I'll stick (mostly) to 3.5. :smallwink:

[Morty]

Fluff, always easy to houserule. I rarely complain about fluff unless it's married to the mechanics.

If I houserule it, it means I miss it. If I didn't, I wouldn't bother. Which answers the question in OP.

[Jerthanis]

I won't have to miss them for long, since our primary DM promises he's going to keep running 3.5 whenever he runs D&D forever. After our run through Keep on the Shadowfell runs out (run by someone else), I don't even know when I'll get to play 4th again.

What I'll miss about 3rd edition is definitely going to be the spell lists, and in particular spells with more open-ended descriptions which allowed them to be used much more creatively. Admittedly, we've only seen something like 7 powers per class so far, and there might be more like this later.

To be fair though, I missed this about 3rd in comparison to 2nd and 3.5 in comparison to 3rd. In 2nd edition, I made steam engines out of Heat Metal and Permanency. In 3rd edition I cast Bull's Strength on someone to carry out a full day's work. In 3.5 I threw items I had shrunk with Shrink Item using Telekinesis. Now I'm not even sure if I'll be able to cast Disguise Self to look like an identical copy of the Fighter (to confuse surprise attacks). Each time I feel like spells got more and more defined, and less applicable in many different situations.

Also, flawed as they are, I'll miss the rules for playing Monsters as PCs, because if I had a game concept for the party to be all Angels, or if a player really really wanted to play a minotaur, I knew where to start at least with the act of houseruling and modifying. Now I worry there will be specific rules on how to run individual monsters as PCs, but not every monster. Well... I guess this is in 3.5 too, since there's no options for playing Stirges or Llamasu as PCs... and my tolerance for what's too monstrous to be a PC might be wider than the developers intended, but my worry is that 4th edition will be more restrictive, or worse, less helpful in terms of this.

[Ecalsneerg]

I'll miss psionics until they come out. Then I'm making a wizard/psion. :smallsmile:

[Starbuck_II]

When everyone is a super...no one will be.

Hahahaha!

True, even the monsters are super.

[dcviana]

I'll miss Skill Points. The automatic skill progressing of 4th edition doesn't feel right to me (ok, My fighter is now 4th level and my Dungeonering skill is now +2 instead of +1, even through I spent most of my adventuring time in hills and forests and never entered a dungeon).

I kind of like the new feats for multiclass system. Ok, it's a bit limiting, but a fighter passing a level of wizard and automagicaly being as good a magician as any 1st level wizard (who trained most of his life to archieve this status) was a bit off to me.

[Pirate_King]

I think that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52317) sums up my feelings about the end of 3.X edition.

I might have to sig some of the stuff from the post you linked to.

I'm right there with everyone who's missing the PrC's, gnomes, and bards. Sure, gnomes are in the MM, but many know how annoying it is to make a character sheet with stats in from the monster manual.

[Vortling]

I'll miss cleric domains. I felt they really gave a way to customize clerics of different dieties.

I'll miss the crazy multiclassing and the ability to create a host of odd character concepts.

I'll miss magic working differently from other classes abilities.

I'm sure I'll come up with more later.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I'll also miss the flexibility of skill points, I'll talk about the rest once it get's there.

[PnP Fan]

I'll miss new suplements for 3.5, because, in all likelihood, my group won't want to spend money/time on a new system that does the same thing that our current system does. It took quite a bit of convincing to get them to switch to SW Saga (and 3.5 for that matter). Even then, most of them wont' buy the book, they'll just borrow, or find scanned images on the internet, somewhere (not that I condone this practice, that's just the way things are with some of they guys in my group).

[Saph]

The easy access to cool abilities like flight and shapeshifting. In 3.5 you can get them early if you work at it, and they can be brokenly powerful, but they're also unbelievably fun.

From what I've seen of the 4e spells and class abilities so far, they're more balanced and less open to abuse, but also much less interesting.

- Saph

[Reinboom]

When everyone is a super...no one will be.

Hahahaha!

Except for... the bicycle repairman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eCdIe0wdvU)!

[skywalker]

I will miss, like others said, the ability to "think laterally."
I will miss, like others said, skill points.
I will miss, like others said, PCs and monsters playing by (mostly) the same rules.
I will miss, like no one else has said, the "good" monsters. Metallic Dragons and Archons and Eladrin and Guardinals and Angels...etc.

[Ned the undead]

The multiclassing.

[Mad Wizard]

Yikes, reading through this post has shown me that a lot of things are changing that I had no idea were any different. I'm feeling even less like converting.

[Ealstan]

I will miss the Binder, who was mercilessly prison-shivved and robbed by 4e Warlock.

[puppyavenger]

I'll miss
1. the sorceror
2. The completly haphazard aplication of realism
3. the hundred of tonnes of homebrew stuff so your players never know whats coming
4. Being able to convert any monster into a PC race easily, My favorit campgain was a dragon, a fae, and a undead.

[Leon]

Nothing, cos im not leaving it

[Rutee]

Spellthieves. Imperfect Blue Mages they may have been, but they were the closest DnD comes.