Shadowrun game system : How is it?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hello, I just became slightly interested in Shadowrun's gaming system (compared to vanilla d20, or even Warhammer's system, or WoD's system).

How fun/complicated/balanced is it? Give your impressions, etc..

And if you have any good stories/advices, feel free to tell!

[valadil]

Overall I like it, but it's not perfect.

To determine success you roll a number of d6s and any above a certain threshold are considered successes. Dice explode (so a roll of a nat 6 lets you reroll and add 6). I find d6s to be a little too small. There just aren't enough difficulties between trivially easy and relying on exploded nat 6s.

Characters don't advance much. At least not in my experience. This may even be how the game is designed. I find that my characters *might* over the course of the game gain a die in important skills. That's all.

Sometimes players even lose power over the course of the game. Especially cyber and equipment based characters. Electronics get damaged and malfunction. These characters often convert XP into cash just to get repairs. This kinda goes along with my last point. It's never clear to me if we're doing something wrong or if the game is actually meant to be this way. I'm okay with losing power over the game now that I know that that's how SR works, but if it's your first foray outside of D&D, this will be hugely disappointing.

Going first is a big advantage. Real big. I know a lot of players complain about how D&D lets people fighter at full strength even if they're down 200HP. SR is the opposite. If you go first and hurt someone they will have a much harder time hurting you. It is realistic, but I've seen way too many combats get resolved as soon as initiatives are first rolled.

What I really like about it is the pool of combat dice. It's a bunch of extra dice that can be added to combat rolls. It refreshes between rounds. Most often you divide up how many dice will help you attack and how many will help you dodge. Where it gets really interesting in my view is that characters with high initiatives get to act several times in a round, but they still have the same pool of extra dice. It gives you something to think about when you're slugging it out with an enemy.

[Emperor Tippy]

4e only has exploding dice when you spend edge.

It's actually pretty simple to learn. The only die used is the d6, your dice poll is made up of Attribute+Skill+modifiers (except for computer skills when its Skill+Program+Modifiers) and you are either trying to hit a set DC or doing opposed rolls. A 5 or 6 is a hit.

That's pretty much the system. As for character advancement, it depends on the GM. You can also die easy, don't expect most combat to last more than 1 combat turn in most cases.

[ahammer]

[QUOTE=valadil;4361211]
Sometimes players even lose power over the course of the game. Especially cyber and equipment based characters. Electronics get damaged and malfunction. These characters often convert XP into cash just to get repairs. [QUOTE]


this for one is wrong. (know for sure in 4e and im preaty sure on 3ed(what you played))

thing I like about shadow run is there is alot more way to get intell about a area before you go there. this leads to plaining how you will do a misson more then just running in and seing what happens.

magic is fun but in 3e it is a bit under powered and in 4e it is a bit overpowered.

it is a fun system overall. about as well
balanced as most systems. not to bad to learn.. it is all pont buy from leveling to char build.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

All depends on what version of shadowrun we're talking about. There's also alot of differing opinions, never mind differences in GM's play style that can radically affect things but in general:

1st Edition Shadowrun was a marvelously ballanced system that covered everything well. BUT! it had some Complexity issues... big ones... and a combat could take a hideous amount of time as you ROLLED FOR EVERY BULLET in a FULLY AUTOMATIC burst. It was cool and all but murder to actually play.

2nd Edition fixed some stuff to make it more playable but made the marvelously ballanced system a bit off, (IMHO) but you could get through combats a heck of a lot faster. Still had some rules isues but an improvement.

3rd Edition is where a lot of the controversy starts as some (like me) feel it was a little over the top at fixing the slights of the previous editions. My biggest beef was with all the extra stuff you could get in character creation there was little point to trying to get better/improve. Some insist this was the best edition to date, others (myself included) say it was the worst.

4rth Ed is also quite the debate starter, as with everything going wireless and screwing with the rules to further simplify/expediate combat and group unity (no deckers hiding at home anymore) brought some to think it was amazing and brought back the feel of the old game, while some felt it ruined the feel and wrongly dropped the PC's power level.

Overall all of the Shadowrun games have a far more lethal game mechanic than "most" other RPG's. With 10 boxes or HP and weapons that can inflict 1,3,6,10 boxes of damage plus and minus modifiers either stuff would bounce, or kill you immeadiatly, and taking any wounds would severly affect you even if you should survive an attack that didn't get "bounced" or dodged.
This also leads to alot more planning (sometimes the whole session) and footwork setting things up, alot more of a world is out to get you dystopian future feel (knowing there's lots of ways to die makes you a bit paranoid... which in shadowrun is a good thing).

I suggest looking for the Shadowrun motivational posters on this forum to really get the feel for it... if they appeal to you you'll probably love the game.

If not then honestly probably not your cup of tea. (soycaf)

[Raum]

Hello, I just became slightly interested in Shadowrun's gaming system (compared to vanilla d20, or even Warhammer's system, or WoD's system).

How fun/complicated/balanced is it? Give your impressions, etc..Very fun! "Balance" isn't really an issue, it's a skill / point based character system. That said, you can make mechanically poor build choices. Trying to do too many things is one of the more common ways of making poor choices...focused characters can be significantly better than a generalist in their area of expertise.

One warning about the combat system - there's a fairly steep death spiral. Getting wounded hurts. Getting wounded first makes losing the battle much more likely. Playing it like D&D will get you killed. :) Good shadow runners avoid combat unless they can create a situation where they have a significant advantage. And when you have to shoot anyway, get some cover!


And if you have any good stories/advices, feel free to tell!Too many to tell...had lots of fun with SR 2ed!

[Xuincherguixe]

It's awesome is how it is.

The rule books are jam packed full of stuff, and manage to be a nice read. The earlier editions tended to have sections with some awesome full colour artwork. They might be worth it just for that alone frankly.

However, they tended to increase the price. Later Shadowrun books stopped doing them. But there's still lots of good black and white art.


The books are by in large an interesting read too. Little comments here and there about society as you're reading about say, the Matrix, or Magic.


Shadowrun also isn't as in your face about how you play the game as D&D. It kind of assumes that you're going to be a group of criminals for hire. But you could for instance play as a street gang, or an organized crime syndicate, or mercenaries (though Shadowrunners kind of are Mercenaries).

Slightly harder adaptations include being DocWagon employees (drive around in an ambulance, saving people's lives. Made all the much harder due to the fact that they might be under fire by street gangs, organized crime syndicates, or Shadowrunners), police, or special ops teams. Actually those are all likely to get caught up in the middle of gunfights. They're kind of frequent.

Really far out possibilities include being a school teacher, research scientists, video game programmer, investor, or wage slave (I'm trapped in a box with only three walls!)


4th is also interesting in how it handles Shadowruns equivalent of "Evil" magic. The magicians themselves either have something traumatic happen to them which causes them to snap, or (and these are the scary ones) choose to use horrendous means to reach their ends. There's a lot more varieties of them, which were all reasonable directions to take them. But you can even play as them.

Oh it recommends against it. But in previous editions it just flat out said you couldn't. Not that you couldn't do it anyways, but you really weren't supposed to. It was one of the few instances of Shadowrun outright prohibiting anything. It had pretty good reasons. Many of which are still the case.

Still, you might be able to convince the game master to let you play a Yagami Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Yagami) like character.


But, Anti Heros work better than villains.


As I kind of mentioned before, it's not as heavy handed as a lot of games tend to be. You can still railroad like crazy, but it comes right out and says you shouldn't. The setting has lots of details, but they're a bit fuzzy at parts. You can fill them in as you choose, or outright change "facts". Here's one I've been toying with. A Great Dragon was elected President, but assassinated at his inauguration speech. In his will he has a lot of cryptic remarks and leaves people with lots of things. In some of the novels it explains why he had himself assassinated, but I like the idea that he faked his death so he could enact that will.

It supports many different play styles. Despite the fact that it has somewhere around 250 different models of guns, you could run a campaign where you never had to use one. You will almost certainly fire your gun a lot though.

Oh, and Shadowrun has Great Dragons that can get elected, who then assassinate themselves.

[mabriss lethe]

A Great Dragon was elected President, but assassinated at his inauguration speech. In his will he has a lot of cryptic remarks and leaves people with lots of things. In some of the novels it explains why he had himself assassinated, but I like the idea that he faked his death so he could enact that will.

I loved playing through Dunkelzhan's Will.

What's not to love about having to scour every major city in the world in an effort to track down a dragon's baseball card collection?

[Zincorium]

Last I played shadowrun was third edition, I've only casually browsed the others. But I have to second wholeheartedly the importance of a high initiative, not only because it allows you to degrade your enemy's offense, but because you can end up going multiple times for each round your opponent acts. Wired reflexes is just evil for that reason alone.

Alternately, there's the heavily armored troll whose toughness is so high that anything less than a critical with a sniper rifle or assault cannon isn't significant. Contrastingly, direct damage magic is almost stupid to use because even if you resist most of the drain, it makes it hard to stay conscious if you get a few bullets into you. Magicians are definitely not geared towards new players.


My main problem with the system were the general lack of support for creating adventures beyond the admittedly stereotypical 'get inside corp headquarters and steal/kill something' plotline. D&D has the same problem, but shadowrun isn't as intuitive to build plotlines for given how different the base assumptions are, and it could definitely use some help in the core rulebook.

Also, why are there dragons statted out in the core book in third, but not say, ghouls? Are the runners expected to fight dragons a lot?

[Xuincherguixe]

My main problem with the system were the general lack of support for creating adventures beyond the admittedly stereotypical 'get inside corp headquarters and steal/kill something' plotline. D&D has the same problem, but shadowrun isn't as intuitive to build plotlines for given how different the base assumptions are, and it could definitely use some help in the core rulebook.

Honestly, I didn't have that problem. I've been on, and sent my players on some pretty crazy jobs.


Also, why are there dragons statted out in the core book in third, but not say, ghouls? Are the runners expected to fight dragons a lot?

The GM Screen had a list of critters. But if you didn't buy that, you were kind of screwed. I didn't do too much stuff in 3rd with critters, but if I did, I had a 2nd edition critters book (Paranormal animals of europe.)

You could download (and still can) download a .PDF of the monsters for 3rd edition.

[Zincorium]

Honestly, I didn't have that problem. I've been on, and sent my players on some pretty crazy jobs.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the game has to tell you how to use your imagination. But, say I want to have the run involve breaking into a privately owned aquarium and collect DNA samples from the metamorphed critters inside. Does the rulebook give me much to work with? Not really. It's very narrow in scope, and it does take a lot of work to keep a campaign fresh.


The GM Screen had a list of critters. But if you didn't buy that, you were kind of screwed. I didn't do too much stuff in 3rd with critters, but if I did, I had a 2nd edition critters book (Paranormal animals of europe.)

You could download (and still can) download a .PDF of the monsters for 3rd edition.

My problem is more why they used pages to stat out something that should never, ever be faced in combat. Dragons are so powerful financially and politically that if you let the PCs face them in battle, it had better be at the end of an epic storyline.

And if I ever find my 3rd ed book again and can grab together a group I'll keep the online monster book in mind. Of course, that'll be set somewhere in priority after finding a group for Alternity.

[Prustan]

I found direct damage magic very handy - just make it a Stun spell. With a decent Willpower, you can merrily toss out high powered Stun spells and not take a point of Drain, sometimes even after taking a few bullets. And if you actually need the victims alive, so much the better, just Stun 'em unconcious. Whatever you do, don't use Elemental spells. The secondary effects may be nice, but the Drain is a killer. (all magic observations from 2nd Edition. Don't have enough experience with 3rd, and really don't get 4th.)

[Hawriel]

shadowrun is very balanced. Especialy for the GM if players get out of hand. If the players think there hot drek with alot of guns and good armor with a kick ass A-team van/urban tank. there are to blunt ways to handle this. A cromed out troll with a panther assalt cannon, and his friend a level 6 initiated elven mage with a force 8 spirit ally. I know sence your new this may not mean much. the cannon is the biggest gun a person can wield with out being mounted on a vehicle, if your a troll. initiated magic user is well Gandolf on a very bad day who really hates you. Oh and he has a gun to just because.

Shadowrun is very balanced between skill, tech, and magic. I would not compar it at all to any D20 game. Its a free form skill based game not a level dependant game. If you want to make a comparison world of darkness is the best one. Or star wars 2nd ed.

Mages do not have the I win button that peaple say D&D wizards do.
Magic items (foci) are powerful but use to many and you become addicted and you lose magic rating. Cast your spell at to high a power you risk not only passing out cold but may do physical damage to the mage. If a mage takes a deadly wound they risk losing magic rating. A mage can buff the hell out of themselves but sustaining the spells raises all TNs for all actions. Like casting more spells, or taking the drain from casting spells.

Combat in shadowrun is very unforgiving. A fair fight is one whare you shoot first and only. If the players do there jobs right you dont have to fight.

The matrix rules can be complex. I advise taking afew days to read them by yourself and into duce it after two or three gaming sesions in. Keep it small. Then cut out enough to keep a matrix run and the real world in sink. The matrix runs on a different speed that 'RL'. One "RL" turn is really 6 or so in the matrix. Peaple get bord leave the table and so on. Learn to trim it down to a 1/1 or 2/1 and things will be cool.

Vehicls ares awsom. Vehicle combat sucks hairy nuts.

Shadowrun is ment to be a living world. NPCs are not ment to turn off and on depending on when or if PCs need them. Having player contacts provide inparation for storyes. Its not all about Mr J wants magufin A stolen from Corp W. oh one last balancing tip. The law. Shadowrun has a pritty good law system set up. if players get to cocky that can alwasy bight them in the ass to. I must pass out. Have fun running the shadows. Oh one more thing only posers and wanabies call themselves shadorunners.

[Project_Mayhem]

shadowrun is very balanced. Especialy for the GM if players get out of hand. If the players think there hot drek with alot of guns and good armor with a kick ass A-team van/urban tank. there are to blunt ways to handle this. A cromed out troll with a panther assalt cannon, and his friend a level 6 initiated elven mage with a force 8 spirit ally. I know sence your new this may not mean much. the cannon is the biggest gun a person can wield with out being mounted on a vehicle, if your a troll. initiated magic user is well Gandolf on a very bad day who really hates you. Oh and he has a gun to just because.

Shadowrun is very balanced between skill, tech, and magic. I would not compar it at all to any D20 game. Its a free form skill based game not a level dependant game. If you want to make a comparison world of darkness is the best one. Or star wars 2nd ed.

Mages do not have the I win button that peaple say D&D wizards do.
Magic items (foci) are powerful but use to many and you become addicted and you lose magic rating. Cast your spell at to high a power you risk not only passing out cold but may do physical damage to the mage. If a mage takes a deadly wound they risk losing magic rating. A mage can buff the hell out of themselves but sustaining the spells raises all TNs for all actions. Like casting more spells, or taking the drain from casting spells.

Combat in shadowrun is very unforgiving. A fair fight is one whare you shoot first and only. If the players do there jobs right you dont have to fight.

The matrix rules can be complex. I advise taking afew days to read them by yourself and into duce it after two or three gaming sesions in. Keep it small. Then cut out enough to keep a matrix run and the real world in sink. The matrix runs on a different speed that 'RL'. One "RL" turn is really 6 or so in the matrix. Peaple get bord leave the table and so on. Learn to trim it down to a 1/1 or 2/1 and things will be cool.

Vehicls ares awsom. Vehicle combat sucks hairy nuts.

Shadowrun is ment to be a living world. NPCs are not ment to turn off and on depending on when or if PCs need them. Having player contacts provide inparation for storyes. Its not all about Mr J wants magufin A stolen from Corp W. oh one last balancing tip. The law. Shadowrun has a pritty good law system set up. if players get to cocky that can alwasy bight them in the ass to. I must pass out. Have fun running the shadows. Oh one more thing only posers and wanabies call themselves shadorunners.

for gods sake man, think of the poor kobolds!

[Rasilak]

Great game!
I play it for 10 Years now, and I still love it.
I'd recommend sticking with 3rd Edition. 4th might be a bit easier to learn, but it's too "clean" for my taste. I know it depends on the DM - and is a matter of taste - , but to me 4th Ed feels like clean, smooth SciFi, whereas 3rd Ed feels like gritty Cyberpunk.
I also like skill based Systems (like SR is) better than level based ones (like D20). It allows for more freedom in character creation.
Like said before, Matrix and vehicle combat in RAW just plain sucks (electronic warfare does, too, but it's not that common). However, you can easily make it work just by ignoring some of the more complicated rules.
With the combat rules there are some minor quirks (like the 10m wide wall of death from shotguns, or handgrenades that are just plain unable to kill you), but most are quite easy to fix with houserules.

[Xuincherguixe]

Shadowrun is not very balanced, it's just better balanced than D&D. Which isn't saying much.

I haven't actually played 4th. While I suspect they're not going to be as strong as previous versions, they still have far more options than non magicians. There is very little that can stop a strong spirit other than magic.


And just so people don't get the wrong idea, the rule book explicitly says not to kill off players arbitrarily. I've seen a few people comment about how deadly and easy it is to die, but the Game Master is encouraged to step in in situations like that.

I've always been of the opinion that it's better to take things away from characters, rather than just offing them at the drop of a hat. Maybe that Robot Arm of theirs with all the nifty gadgets gets blown off. Or some (surprisingly well equipped) Cultists get the drop on the characters and steal their kidneys. (Seriously, there's a real market for stolen organs)


When it's time to end the game? Having them go out in a blaze of glory works. Ideally before the end the players will have killed hundreds of SWAT members, downed 5 helicopters, and destroyed at least one tank.


edit: Also, somewhere between 2nd and 3rd edition, Shadowrun went from Cyberpunk to post Cyberpunk. It's a lot more like Ghost in the Shell these days.

It can also be as bleak and depressing as you want it to be. It should be at least a little depressing. If it's too horrible people might not want to play. But hey, your players might be masochists. (In which case you really shouldn't kill them off. That's letting them off too easy ^_^)

[Tsotha-lanti]

edit: Also, somewhere between 2nd and 3rd edition, Shadowrun went from Cyberpunk to post Cyberpunk. It's a lot more like Ghost in the Shell these days.

I don't think you know what "post-cyberpunk" means. GitS (SAC and movies both) is as traditional cyberpunk as you can get. Post-cyberpunk is Diamond Age and Snow Crash, and Gibson's Bridge trilogy (the bastard abandoned the ship he built and captained!). For an example of a game actually going from (mirrorshades-) cyberpunk to post-cyberpunk between editions, check out Cyberpunk 2020 and 203X. No, actually, don't check out 203X - you'll regret it...

That said, yeah, there's no RPG that's actually "balanced" ( = unbreakable).

[Crow]

CP2020 actually does a great job of capturing the cyberpunk feel. I would kill to actually play an actual game =)

[loopy]

Just a random question. What are insect spirits? What do they do? Why are they so feared?

[Anterean]

Just a random question. What are insect spirits? What do they do? Why are they so feared?

Insect spirits are spirits that resemble a type of insects, such as ants or wasps. What goal they wish to accomplish is uncertain, but their need to cocoon in a living creature (which dies) in order to be summoned is what make the general populace rather easy about them and the unsavory shamans that work for them.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Why are they so feared?

Think Aliens.

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't think you know what "post-cyberpunk" means. GitS (SAC and movies both) is as traditional cyberpunk as you can get. Post-cyberpunk is Diamond Age and Snow Crash, and Gibson's Bridge trilogy (the bastard abandoned the ship he built and captained!). For an example of a game actually going from (mirrorshades-) cyberpunk to post-cyberpunk between editions, check out Cyberpunk 2020 and 203X. No, actually, don't check out 203X - you'll regret it...

That said, yeah, there's no RPG that's actually "balanced" ( = unbreakable).

Apparently I don't then.


And as far as insect spirits go, they're not even the worst things out there. Kind of light weights as far as evil spirits go. (There really are a lot of those)

[Prustan]

I'd agree with the others - insect spirits are bad. Toxic spirits are worse. FREE Toxic spirits are much worse. And insect spirits aren't really lightweights either - remember Chicago had a nuke detonated to deal with an infestation.

[tarbrush]

One thing about shadowrun. As alluded to earlier, it is a LOT of work for the DM. Which is kinda surprising given the amount of setting detail that's provided for you.

The reason for this is that you can't simply throw the DnD standard 4 waves of monsters/day at people, cause they'll die. Players need lots and lots of details (map and floorplans especially) so they can use their imaginations to overcome hazards. Breaking into Megacorp buildings isn't simply smash and grab, and it would lack verisimilitude if it was.

But, the upside is that some of your sessions will simply be the players planning their next run and asking you questions like 'what's that, can I hide behind it, does it explode etc'. Which I think is fun. But it's much more fun if you're well prepared. Or, y'know, a genius or something.

[mabriss lethe]

If you can get your hands on it... Cannon Companion is the most amazing book ever printed. Aside from the image of a guy with twin revolvers in his belt (one had "meat" engraved on it, the other "potatoes") The book contains some rather nifty toys, and to top it off, an open ended system for designing your own firearms.

(I was playing a Phys Ad gun smith in a game. he had toys...oh the toys....)

using the rules, you could make a burstfire bullpup shotgun capable of dealing slightly less damage than an Assault Cannon. (12 D if I remember correctly...) the thing was concealable (only slightly less than a heavy pistol. 10 or so, it think.) Partially invisible to MADs (magnetic anomaly detector) and gods alone know what else I've forgotten about the thing in the intervening years. The "Trollstomper" as it came to be known was a party favorite.

[Xuincherguixe]

If you can get your hands on it... Cannon Companion is the most amazing book ever printed.

Yeah, I liked that one too. But it's 3rd edition.

Though I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to convert the weapons, which is where most of the awesome is.


The gun design rules were, frankly broken. You just pointed out exactly how :P The GM was expected to apply some level of reason ^_^


Now that I think about it, 4th doesn't really have enough guns. Maybe at some point I'll set about converting the weapons.

[avr]

If you're running the game for the first time you won't need Arsenal, Augmentation or Street Magic which are the SR 4e supplements out so far. The system is a fair bit more complicated than Warhammer FRP, though less so than d20 IMO. The supplements work better for those who are already familiar with the system.

Arsenal is the shadowrun 4th edition book with gun (& vehicle) modification rules. They are not less broken than they were in 3e.