Are Not All the 12 Gods Evil*? (Minor[spoiler])

[Logalmier]

Just a small stupid question on my part, that can probably be resolved just by something I missed, but it says in Start of Darkness that when the Dark One found out about the snarl he confronted with his elder evil gods, AND RAT WAS THERE! Not only that, but he was stating to Timat that the Dark One might need to know about it, now why would he do that? Think about it.



*author is not responsible if this topic has been brought up before, well ok, I guess it is his fault, but he looked though the archives and the search engine was really driving him nuts, so at least he tried, please don't kill me.

[Tingel]

Why would you believe that all 12 southern gods are evil?

The scene you mentioned implies that Tiamat of the western pantheon and Rat of the southern pantheon might very well be evil, but nothing more.

[NikkTheTrick]

I always thought that some of the 12 gods were evil, some were good and some were neutral... So, yes not all of the 12 gods are evil.

Was that what you were asking for? If not, then I don't really get the question, please re-phrase it...

[Logalmier]

*Slaps himself in face* Arrgh! I'm such a dummy! The title of this thread was supposed to be "Are Not All the 12 Gods Good":redface:

[Tingel]

That makes more sense.

So far I have assumed that each of the pantheons has one black sheep (north: Loki; south: Rat, west: Tiamat), while the other gods are neutral or good.

[NikkTheTrick]

That makes more sense.

So far I have assumed that each of the pantheons has one black sheep (north: Loki; south: Rat, west: Tiamat), while the other gods are neutral or good.
I don't know if it is only 1 evil, but there is definitely at least 1. Rat in case of 12 gods. There may be more. I always thought it would be kinda balanced between good and evil.

[Tingel]

I don't know if it is only 1 evil, but there is definitely at least 1. Rat in case of 12 gods. There may be more. I always thought it would be kinda balanced between good and evil.
I doubt that an entire order of paladins would serve a pantheon comprised of just as many evil as good deities. So if Rat is not (as I assume) a "black sheep" among the southern gods, then the paladins' devotion is inscrutable.

[FujinAkari]

I doubt that an entire order of paladins would serve a pantheon comprised of just as many evil as good deities. So if Rat is not (as I assume) a "black sheep" among the southern gods, then the paladins' devotion is inscrutable.

As far as we know, none of the Sapphire Guard serve Rat, they serve the 12 Gods. Kinda like how you can be loyal to your country, but not a particular leader.

[NikkTheTrick]

As far as we know, none of the Sapphire Guard serve Rat, they serve the 12 Gods. Kinda like how you can be loyal to your country, but not a particular leader.
Not even that. In this case, it is more like being loyal to your country despite some senators being evil.

[factotum]

I wouldn't be surprised if all 9 alignments are represented amongst the 12 gods, but since there's a mismatch in the numbers there, some alignments must have more representatives than others. So, it's possible the BALANCE of the 12 gods tends toward Lawful Good even if there are other alignments among them. Don't forget that ALL the 12 gods were the source of Miko's Fall...

[turkishproverb]

Don't forget that ALL the 12 gods were the source of Miko's Fall...

Don't say that, it's the verbal component of the "Summon David" spell.

Seriously though, I'm inclined to think theres probably 1 for each alignment, with an extra neutral for the "True Neutral" as opposed to "Neutral" way of looking at the alignment.

[Jayngfet]

What, no evil clerics in the south, remember, unlike paladins, rangers, and druids, clerics need a particular god.

[Spiryt]

I wouldn't be surprised if all 9 alignments are represented amongst the 12 gods, but since there's a mismatch in the numbers there, some alignments must have more representatives than others. So, it's possible the BALANCE of the 12 gods tends toward Lawful Good even if there are other alignments among them. Don't forget that ALL the 12 gods were the source of Miko's Fall...

Well, balance could be kept if there were two Neutral Good, two Neutral, and two Neutral evil guys among them.

Alternatively

Seriously though, I'm inclined to think theres probably 1 for each alignment, with an extra neutral for the "True Neutral" as opposed to "Neutral" way of looking at the alignment.

This also looks possible, but would require 3 True Neutral gods. And on god level "Neutral" must be anyway at least very close to the " balance above all things - like Neutrality".

[Emperor Demonking]

" Don't forget that ALL the 12 gods were the source of Miko's Fall... "

I thought that not all of them were and that's why some are looking a different way than the others.

[ref]

This is an interesting theory that was not confirmed nor denied. Note that Rat is with the winning side there. (If the theory is true, the count is 8 votes for, 4 votes against. The 4 Gods that thought Miko should have not fallen for that are Rabbit, Snake, Monkey, and Rooster).

[Chronos]

What, no evil clerics in the south, remember, unlike paladins, rangers, and druids, clerics need a particular god.First of all, clerics can follow an abstract ideal, too. Second, we already know of at least one evil cleric in the South, Tsukiko. Rat wouldn't be a bad choice of god for her, though, with their associations with graveyards and the undead.

[Logalmier]

I got the idea when I read about the OOTS cosmology that even if gods had completely different alignments, they could still interact, with only different goals separating them, the only divergence to this theory is in comic 79, were Thor says he will smite Loki for "thy evil ways".

[SolkaTruesilver]

First of all, clerics can follow an abstract ideal, too. Second, we already know of at least one evil cleric in the South, Tsukiko. Rat wouldn't be a bad choice of god for her, though, with their associations with graveyards and the undead.

Clerics can follow a Pantheon! Actually, every elven clerics who follow one of the "regular" gods (in vanilla D&D) have to pay hommage/make rituals to all other Elven gods of the pantheon. It's just they are peticulary dedicated to one of them.

[mockingbyrd7]

This is an interesting theory that was not confirmed nor denied. Note that Rat is with the winning side there. (If the theory is true, the count is 8 votes for, 4 votes against. The 4 Gods that thought Miko should have not fallen for that are Rabbit, Snake, Monkey, and Rooster).

I'd say Rabbit thought Miko should have not fallen because, at least in my interpretation, Rabbits are very peaceful, innocent creatures that would support second chances and the likes.
Snake is most likely evil, or at least deceptive and therefore would not support Miko's fall.
Monkey is mischevious, probably Chaotic Neutral, and maybe is even there just to be a nonconformist.
Rooster, I'm clueless.

[Mauve Shirt]

What, no evil clerics in the south, remember, unlike paladins, rangers, and druids, clerics need a particular god.

Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I need to say that on these forums :P), but I seem to recall in SoD, the paladins are the south version of clerics, and druids are the western version, according to the OOTS gods. 'cause when Odin was complaining about his clerics being less-than-powerful, the other leaders were complaining about their paladins and druids.


Don't say that, it's the verbal component of the "Summon David" spell.
Nice. :smallwink:

[Tingel]

Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I need to say that on these forums :P), but I seem to recall in SoD, the paladins are the south version of clerics
No, the south has many clerics. They appear in various strips and are clearly distinguished from the paladins. One example among many would be strip 267.

[Mauve Shirt]

I stand corrected. For now. I still remember Redcloak saying something like "clerics (or paladins, or druids)" in his story, but I don't have my copy of SoD with me.

[Tingel]

I stand corrected. For now. I still remember Redcloak saying something like "clerics (or paladins, or druids)" in his story
He does, but he never restricts each class to one pantheon. He just wants to point out that his remarks about clerics apply to all the divine spellcasters.

[Mauve Shirt]

Aha. Thanks.

[bahamut920]

If the South doesn't have clerics, then what is Sangwaan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)? And there are several clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) in the Azure City Underground (that's what I'm calling the group left behind when the hobgoblins took over). We see them healing Haley just after they come back from fighting Tsukiko.

[Chronos]

Who said that the South didn't have clerics?

And since you asked, Sangwaan is a divination-specialist wizard.

[Tingel]

Who said that the South didn't have clerics?
Mauve Shirt did, however that issue has since been resolved.

[Roderick_BR]

I doubt that an entire order of paladins would serve a pantheon comprised of just as many evil as good deities. So if Rat is not (as I assume) a "black sheep" among the southern gods, then the paladins' devotion is inscrutable.
Maybe he's like Asgard's Loki? Anyway, the paladins sever their pantheon as a whole, I don't think that having a few dark gods among them is much of a problem.

[Tingel]

Maybe he's like Asgard's Loki? Anyway, the paladins sever their pantheon as a whole, I don't think that having a few dark gods among them is much of a problem.

That's exactly what I was saying earlier - Rat could be a black sheep among the southern gods similar to Loki's role in the north and Tiamat's role in the west. But since the Paladins of Azure City revere the pantheon of 12 gods as a whole, more or less as one body of authority and divine will, the idea that a balance between good and evil and law and chaos exists among the 12 goods seems impossible. The paladins would never worship a pantheon that ends up being "neutral". They can hardly feverishly hunt down Evil in the name of their gods if about a third of said gods are evil themselves.
Unless of course they are completely unaware of the true nature of their deities. And in that case I think the lawful good gods among the 12 (or alternatively angelic beings of pure Law and Good with which the Azurites can directly commune as we have seen in the comic) would let them know.

[Ptorquemada]

Most polytheistic cultures didn't give you a lot of options. Most of the time there wasn't an evil rain god and a good rain god for you to choose from, there was one rain god, and whether you thought he'd be a cool guy to hang out with or not was kind of irrelevant. You took your rain-related issues to him, because otherwise it'd be like calling the Department of Motor Vehicles to report that your house is on fire... they may be really sorry for you, but basically they're going to tell you to call the Fire Department for things like that.

Now, the Paladins probably consider one of them in particular to be their patron, but it doesn't mean they get to completely ignore the others and their patron would probably be a little ticked if they did: "How dare you judge My brother, mortal? Do not presume to ideas above your station."

[Lupy]

*Casts anti-Argall circle around thread* Don't say the "M" word, I'm already here and I'm one of the ingredients for a Miko based war!

I think it's something like, 3 LG, 3 LN, and 3 LE, I think it's a lawful pantheon as opposed to a good one. Besides that, the Paladins don't impose their views of Dragon's (as an ex!!) brothers, they assume he knows best.