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SamTheCleric
2008-05-23, 11:16 PM
Good day.

This evening I played a session of keep on shadowfell. I was playing the Halfling Rogue who I named Estoban, the Thief of Love. I came into this game one session in, so I missed out on the intro. I will not spoiler any of the encounters, but I will give my impression of the mechanics that I've seen.

#1 - Minions are amazing. Having 12 kobold minions swarming out of a cave mouth at me was just an impressive sight to behold. Not only that, but the majority of the damage in the game did NOT come from the tougher foes... but the repeating attacks from minions. Sure, they die in 1 hit and only deal 1/4 damage... but every round we're attacking minions, we're not attacking the big guy who can drop us to bloodied in one hit.

#2 - Bad guys have powers and those powers are on par, if not more powerful, than the PCs. One "boss" had a power to hit two PCs adjacent to him. No one else had multiple attacks, but he did... and he hit -hard-. One spellcaster was using buff/debuffs as much as our cleric. They may not have specific PC classes, but they have plenty of powers and options.

#3 - I love the rogue. The quickstart rogue is built very well and has a lot of options both in and out of combat. My skills were impressive (+13 to thievery if using thieves tools to open a lock!)... In combat, I opened the fight using my encounter power (2d4+4) on a foe who hadn't acted this encounter, so I dealt an additional 2d8 against him. He was a "tough guy" and I dropped him to bloodied in one shot. The people at the table stared at me in awe, like I was some sort of damage dealing god-send. And I was. My favorite power was the deft strike, where you can move 2 squares before attacking. i would dip up 2 squares, and then move back either around a corner or into cover for a little boost to AC. The mobility advantage I had over the bad guys made our DM quite perplexed... so he threw a glue pot at me... and missed because of cover! yay!

#4 - The cleric is fine as is. His ability to use healing word as a minor action and to add 1d6+3 to your healing surge... REALLY helps. The temp hit points offered by his searing blast kept some of us up long enough to use our second wind.

#5 - This game is hard. During the second encounter of the night 3 people were rolling saves to stop from dying.. the fighter was around 4 or 5 hit points... I was just dipping into the bloodied section. The DM scaled back slightly and went easy on us because not everyone knew the rules 100% (me, being the autocrat that I am, was helping the DM with the rules since I read them back and forth about 9 times). We were down 3 people, almost dead, and still had 3 non minions on us and 3 minions. The "big boss" with over 100 hit points was dead, though... so that was something. So what if you're "overpowered" at first level... the bad guys scaled up with you... you are now doing epic battles at first level, right out the door... and its awesome.

#6 - The last, and most important point, I have to make. The game was Fun. 6 guys sitting around a kitchen table with mt dew, gummi worms, doritos, some minis, some dice... It was a good time. The combats all ran smoothly (even though we didnt know ALL the rules... one guy was completely knew to tabletop RPGs).. and out of combat there was still the dwarf with his bad scottish accent wanting to hit people with their axe, the cleric and paladin offering blessings to the townsfolk, the wizard being cryptic and soft spoken... and the rogue lying about almost everything... and loving it.

Just so you know, we played for 4 hours, made it through 3 combats and 3 half hour to hour role play sessions... and only made it 4 or 5 pages through the 79 page module or so. This isn't a "over in one or two sessions" module.

My only complaint with the keep on shadowfell module is that the rules aren't clearly defined for some things. I don't know exactly what I can and can't do with my skills, but the DM calls for skill checks as needed or to go with the actions we describe. Maybe its just that I have a need to control everything and want to know the rules back and forth... and its just my head wanting to comprehend what's going on...

So... there it is. Take that!

Chronicled
2008-05-23, 11:22 PM
This was more informative than most reviews of the module I've read. Also, 4e is looking better still.

Matthew
2008-05-23, 11:26 PM
#5 - This game is hard.

I have heard this. I think it's probably important for encouraging rules mastery.



So what if you're "overpowered" at first level... the bad guys scaled up with you... you are now doing epic battles at first level, right out the door... and its awesome.

Okay, not my thing, but each to their own.



My only complaint with the keep on shadowfell module is that the rules aren't clearly defined for some things. I don't know exactly what I can and can't do with my skills, but the DM calls for skill checks as needed or to go with the actions we describe. Maybe its just that I have a need to control everything and want to know the rules back and forth... and its just my head wanting to comprehend what's going on...

Yay! Obscure rules and lack of clarity are back! (did they ever go away?) Would you say it was fair to describe it as having "clearly defined combat, but more nebulous task resolution." [i.e. more is left up to the DM]?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-23, 11:29 PM
Would you say it was fair to describe it as having "clearly defined combat, but more nebulous task resolution." [i.e. more is left up to the DM]?

Yeah... we didn't actually use too may skills beyond insight, arcana, perception... I used Stealth, Thievery, Bluff... but mostly because I could not because I needed to. (I had the key to the locked chest, but I picked the lock anyway. :P)

I'm sure it's a matter of it being a quick-start module... they couldnt exactly jam the entire PHB and DMG into the little folder.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-23, 11:37 PM
Yay! Obscure rules and lack of clarity are back! (did they ever go away?) Would you say it was fair to describe it as having "clearly defined combat, but more nebulous task resolution." [i.e. more is left up to the DM]?

I think it's just that this is a quickstart module.

RTGoodman
2008-05-24, 01:43 AM
I'm glad to see that people are playing the module and liking it. I went to a "session" tonight with my group (mostly just making characters and hanging out), and it really ended with me just telling them about all the stuff we know about 4E (since they haven't read any previews or anything) and letting them look at the Quick-Start rules and the various pre-gen character. Surprisingly, all of them were enthused, and so much so that I'll apparently be running the adventure soon. I believe the Tiefling Warlock/Wizard, the Dragonborn Paladin, and either the Human Wizard or Halfling Rogue are all already spoken for! :smallbiggrin:

KIDS
2008-05-24, 01:49 AM
Excellent, can't wait to try it myself and thanks for the report.

Pronounceable
2008-05-24, 06:28 AM
How long does individual combats take on average both ingame and out of game? I mean in minutes and rounds.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-24, 06:48 AM
One combat with about 12-15 bad guys took ablout 20-30 minutes real time... i wasn't counting rounds.

Another with the same amount +1 boss took half an hour to 45 mins.

skywalker
2008-05-24, 12:44 PM
One combat with about 12-15 bad guys took ablout 20-30 minutes real time... i wasn't counting rounds.

Another with the same amount +1 boss took half an hour to 45 mins.

How long does low level combat usually take for your group?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-24, 12:45 PM
In 3.5 it can go anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours depending on the combat and who is running it.

This is different from my normal gorup.

Vortling
2008-05-24, 01:55 PM
Thanks for this info. Glad you put a point in there about the cleric :smallbiggrin:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-24, 01:59 PM
Thanks for this info. Glad you put a point in there about the cleric :smallbiggrin:

I knew you would ask :)

Honestly, the player that was playing the cleric was having terrible luck... out of all the combats, he hit maybe 3 times -total-. Luckily, healing word doesnt require someone to actually be hit... so he saved our butts a few times. :smallbiggrin:

skywalker
2008-05-24, 02:10 PM
In 3.5 it can go anywhere from half an hour to 2 hours depending on the combat and who is running it.

This is different from my normal gorup.

I was wondering because my group found that combat took a similar amount of time as it did in 3.5.

So you experienced a significant time gain?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-05-24, 02:17 PM
I'm glad that the minion rules were satisfactory.They are one thing I'm excited about. So, all in all, a good game?
What do you think about the game compared to other editions?
If this was the first edition D&D, what would you think?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-24, 02:42 PM
I was wondering because my group found that combat took a similar amount of time as it did in 3.5.

So you experienced a significant time gain?

Yeah, combat sped up a whole lot... or so it seems. No telling how it will be at higher levels, yet.


I'm glad that the minion rules were satisfactory.They are one thing I'm excited about. So, all in all, a good game?
What do you think about the game compared to other editions?
If this was the first edition D&D, what would you think?

yeah, the minions worked out great... if not making combat harder. It was a good game, but I'm not making a final judgement until at least 2 or 3 more sessions (my next session is Friday night).

If, if this were the first ever edition of D&D I'd think the game was fun epic fantasy. It really feels different being 1st level and feeling heroic... it's kind of refreshing. (the same reason none of my games ever start at 1... 3 at the lowest... the best thing Dark Sun ever did. :smallbiggrin:)

mabriss lethe
2008-05-24, 03:01 PM
I've been vaguely not giving half a darn about 4E ever since I heard they were coming out with it.

I may have to give it a peek. Sounds like it might actually be worth a spin around the block.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-24, 05:02 PM
For those of you who are interested... here is the "boss" that nearly killed us all...

Don't read it if you're gonna play it soon!

Irontooth - Level 3 Elite Brute
Small natural humanoid (goblin) - XP 300
HP 106 Bloodied 53 (See Blood Crazy below)
AC 18; Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 17
Saving Throws +2; Action point 1
Speed 6
Battleaxe (standard; at will) Weapon
+8 vs AC; 1d8+4 damage
Dual Axe (standard; when Irontooth doesn't move on his turn; at will)
Make a basic melee attack against two adjacent creatures.
Goblin Tactics (immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack; at will): Irontooth can shift 1 square.
Blood Crazed (while bloodied) - Healing
While bloodied, Irontooth gains +1d10 damage and loses the ability to use goblin tactics. He must attack the nearest foe, charging when possible. At the end of his turn, he heals 5 hp.

--

He's also got 10 Kobold Minions, 3 Kobold Skirmishers, 2 Kobold Dragonshields and one Kobold Wyrmpriest. Its a TOUGH fight.


Oh, and there was a Gnome. They are Fey... not Humanoids.

Starsinger
2008-05-25, 07:55 AM
Sam, thanks for posting this. Your review has assured me that my overwhelming faith in 4e is not misplaced. Now, on to the business at hand, would you say that anybody was shining better than the rest of the party or were you all equally effective?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-25, 08:02 AM
Of the four of them... (Paladin, Fighter, Wizard and Cleric) ... no one really stood out as bigger/better than the others, each was doing something equally effective... though the Sleep spell that the wizard cast was pretty impressive... as was the scorching burst that took out 4 minions and bloodied a wyrmpriest.. I stood out as doing more than them... partly because I knew the rulebook and partly because I'm very tactically minded and was playing as such.

Even with me being more effective as a player, none of the other guys felt as though I was doing TOO much... which is good. Sure I was jumping into a flank, dealing an extra 2d8 damage and then moving out... but that's what I'm supposed to be doing as the striker.

(Oh... and the halflings +5 ac vs opportunity attacks = amazing. I didnt really care about them... I moved where I wanted!)

Raider
2008-05-25, 09:53 AM
Now I have to buy it.....you sir just succeeded on your manipulate Raider throw. Is it worth the money or should I wait for homebrew adventures to poke out? And of course design my own.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-25, 09:54 AM
I got 15% off since I preordered it... and I use the maps that it comes with in the Minis game... so I think it was worth it. A lot of people say its not worth the $30 price tag because its not hardcover... so you may or may want to hold off on buying it... your milage may vary.

RTGoodman
2008-05-25, 11:02 AM
I got 15% off since I preordered it... and I use the maps that it comes with in the Minis game... so I think it was worth it. A lot of people say its not worth the $30 price tag because its not hardcover... so you may or may want to hold off on buying it... your milage may vary.

Looking around online can yield some pretty good prices. Amazon has it for something like $19 plus shipping, and with a membership from B&N you can get it from their website for $21 or so (plus shipping, I suppose).

Pre-ordering, apparently, is the way to go. I ordered the Core Rulebook Giftset thing (all three core books) on the B&N website and ended up only paying $55 or so (out of the normal price of $104.95). Of course, I got a big discount for pre-ordering, a discount for buying online, a membership discount, and a "15% off one item" coupon I got in my e-mail because my family has the membership.

Matthew
2008-05-25, 11:34 PM
Here is a link to another review: Keep on the Shadowfell (http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/viewtopic.php?t=5116&mforum=trolllordgames).