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View Full Version : Is this cool, or cruel?



KillianHawkeye
2008-05-24, 07:20 AM
Lately I've been coming up with ideas to begin introducing the ultimate BBEG of my campaign, and I had a cool idea of a way to incorporate one of the PC's backstories.

The character is an Aasimar Telepath. Her story basically is that her village (dedicated to Pelor) was stricken by a plague a few years back while all the clerics were out trying to help other plague-stricken villages, and without them the villagers just prayed for Pelor to come down and save them. Well, most of the villagers ended up dying, but some were saved thanks to aid from the local Lord. But while the remaining villagers praised Pelor, she knew that it was really the Lord who was the one that saved them, so she moved to the city and eventually helped rescue the Lord from some assassin.

Now, I had originally set up for the Lord to end up being the BBEG, since he is employing the PCs to help him find an artifact that will allow him to pretty much conquer the world. My new idea involves the actual BBEG being SO manipulative, and planning so far ahead, as to make the Lord and the PCs (and others) into his unwitting pawns.

Anyway, the idea I just got was that this plague that had stricken the Telepath's village was actually arranged by the BBEG in order for the Telepath to enter the Lord's employ and specifically to be a part of the artifact-finding mission (for some reason). That part is fine, but what I'm wondering about is if I should somehow make it so that the Telepath herself was somehow involved in spreading the plague without her knowledge. I'm not sure how that would work yet, but the BBEG could probably have access to modify memory or similar to make sure she doesn't remember doing anything.

So what do you think? Would that be cool, or cruel?

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-24, 07:35 AM
It would be sadistic, but it would be quite a good plot twist (it would only be a problem if the PCs were contantly at risk of catching the plague, especially if they don't have a level 5 or higher Cleric in the party).

Rutee
2008-05-24, 07:38 AM
I think making the PCs Xanatos suckers is bad form to begin with, and that kind of plot twist (On the part of the PC, to say the least) is even worse.

Project_Mayhem
2008-05-24, 07:44 AM
I think making the PCs Xanatos suckers is bad form to begin with, and that kind of plot twist (On the part of the PC, to say the least) is even worse.

To be fair, it depends on the players and the kind of game. I personally, if it was well implemented, would be cool with my DM dropping that on me

... although, that was NOT an invitation to do so if you're reading this Joe :smallwink:

Swooper
2008-05-24, 07:44 AM
I vote for 'awesome'. But then, I love it when the DM messes with PC backstories like that, making them really central to the plot. Not every player will like a twist like that. I'd try to bring it up in a conversation while being totally sneaky about it. Casually talk about DMing styles, and try to find out if he minds doing the old amnesia background thing. If he does mind, do something else. If he doesn't.. knock yourself out :smallsmile:

azalinthegreat
2008-05-24, 07:55 AM
I am always a fan of sadistic stuff like that. I completely changed an NPC, who was supposed to become the PC's greatest ally, into the main villain of a game, just because I thought it would be cool. I don't really see any issue with "working backwards" so to speak.

However, whenever I do this, I prefer to do everything relating to this Xanatos Gambit in-game. Basically it says to the players "Hey, you're the ones who fell for it," and creates the illusion that they could have avoided it.

Attilargh
2008-05-24, 08:03 AM
So, uh, if the BBEG is so smart and forethoughtful, how exactly do you suppose the players will defeat him?

Rutee
2008-05-24, 08:05 AM
I vote for 'awesome'. But then, I love it when the DM messes with PC backstories like that, making them really central to the plot. Not every player will like a twist like that. I'd try to bring it up in a conversation while being totally sneaky about it. Casually talk about DMing styles, and try to find out if he minds doing the old amnesia background thing. If he does mind, do something else. If he doesn't.. knock yourself out :smallsmile:

Making a PC's backstory central to the plot isn't the same thing as mangling them.

Jothki
2008-05-24, 08:07 AM
It might be best to do something else sadistic to them first and see how they take it.

Albonor
2008-05-24, 08:08 AM
I think you should find an excellent explanation for " Why this one?" A BBEG planning ahead is typical, but the whole "I had predicted EVERYTHING!" on the part of the PCs is always a bad plot twist to me.

I one ended a campaing with Asmodeus pretty mush revealing he had manipulated...3 guys. The PCs just realy believed two of them so they cursed their innability to look for alternate information sources!

But predicting every simple move every actor is going to make? Does the BBEG has an Int score of 68? Or already has a major artifact that sees a few million options in the future? That has the nasty side effect of creating megalomania and delusions?

Other wise, it does depends on your players so it is your call!

Have fun!

SilverSheriff
2008-05-24, 08:40 AM
ah, the Master Li (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jade_Empire_characters#Master_Li) archtype would fit perfectly...:biggrin:long live the Glorious Strategist.

Starshade
2008-05-24, 08:49 AM
Umm, imagine if this was the original Starwars episode 4-6:

The original story twist in SW is: "Luke, obi van didnt tell you what happened to your father" "You killed him" "no, i AM your father". "Nooooo!".

The modified plot would be, translated to Starwarsian:
- Darth Vader is a evil villain who killed Anakin, and Luke kills Darth.
- The emperor is really Obi Van Kenobi who faked his entire death, and arranged the entire thing, manipulating the gullible Yoda, to train his new Dark Jedi. The plot of training and guiding the destruction of the first Death Star would be a plot to make the Rebell alliance known to Luke, to make them trust Luke, so the emperor could use the force to pupeteer them trough him.
My instinct tells me id not like it. :smallconfused:
and the SW version would be, well, horrible :smallbiggrin:

KillianHawkeye
2008-05-24, 08:52 AM
It would be sadistic, but it would be quite a good plot twist (it would only be a problem if the PCs were contantly at risk of catching the plague, especially if they don't have a level 5 or higher Cleric in the party).

Don't worry, the plague is long gone. :smallwink:


Making a PC's backstory central to the plot isn't the same thing as mangling them.

Who's mangling what now?


But predicting every simple move every actor is going to make? Does the BBEG has an Int score of 68? Or already has a major artifact that sees a few million options in the future? That has the nasty side effect of creating megalomania and delusions?

No, they can't predict every single move, and the PCs still have free will. The BBEG is actually a couple undead and some long lived NPCs (an elf and a mind flayer) working together. I am trying to capture the "I've been planning this for 100 years" feeling that I wish long-lived BBEGs could pull off more often.


So, uh, if the BBEG is so smart and forethoughtful, how exactly do you suppose the players will defeat him?

I'm not sure on that yet, but there are definitely a few weak spots in the BBEG's plan. I'm fully intending for the PCs to triumph, I just want them to be amazed at how convoluted and far ranging the evil plan turns out to be. Obviously, I'm going to make sure that they have a good opportunity to exploit the BBEG's weakest link, but if they don't stop it at that point it will just lead to a final climactic adventure where the PCs can triumph using more "brute force" strategy.

As far as the Telepath's player, I can tell you already that she likes having the secret one-on-one conversations with the NPCs and such. The reason I thought of including her with the plague scenario was so that the BBEGs could be certain that she would survive it. Maybe there is some other way I can go about it?

As far as "Why am I going to all this trouble for one Telepath?", I'm figuring her having a divided loyalty between the PC party and her employer (the Lord) which the BBEGs are intending to exploit in order to (eventually) destroy or break up the party once their part in the BBEG's plan in completed. This is also one place where the BBEG's scheme can be set back if the Telepath remains loyal to the party instead of to the Lord. Her being a Telepath and finding the assassin was important for establishing the trust from the Lord's side.

Pronounceable
2008-05-24, 10:00 AM
If you can come up with some plot that doesn't become ridiculous, go for it. Extremely convulted and hard to follow plans tend to fall flat because some obvious glaring mistake, which you haven't noticed but the players see right away.

Yahzi
2008-05-24, 11:45 AM
That part is fine, but what I'm wondering about is if I should somehow make it so that the Telepath herself was somehow involved in spreading the plague without her knowledge.
I wouldn't go that far; you're coming too close to doing things to the PCs instead of letting them make choices. Better to have them help out on a mission that advances his cause - if they do it themselves (rather than be told about it) it will bite a lot better.

One thing to consider is that maybe the BBEG wasn't evil back then. Maybe he's just changed his mind; grown weary with the slow pace of change and decided to force goodness upon people.

And yes, it's a totally cool idea. :smallcool:

Dannoth
2008-05-24, 12:08 PM
I generally stay away from anything that "alters memory" ... especially if the character never got to roll for it.

How does an magically altered memory show up on detect magic? How about dispel/remove magic?

The only way I would consider this is if I dropped hints along the way that this was a definate possibility.

eg>
>Rumors of the BBEG doing something like this before (his MO)

>The player is told things by NPCs that she really should have known about her past, but strangly does not remember it.

>etc ...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-24, 12:35 PM
If you want to pull this off, think of all the crime novels you've ever read. With any of them, did you feel cheated because the ************* of the author skipped some important facts? Well, unless you feel you're up to that challenge, chuck this idea to the trash can. 'Cause I sure know I have and it's not a nice feeling once Fridge Logic hits in.

Xyk
2008-05-24, 12:48 PM
If you can come up with some plot that doesn't become ridiculous, go for it. Extremely convulted and hard to follow plans tend to fall flat because some obvious glaring mistake, which you haven't noticed but the players see right away.

That's happened to me once and the game fell apart real quick. I suggest you pretend you are the BBEG and plot for yourself. If he forgets something, that's his problem and he will likely be killed. I say go for it, I like a conspiracy theory now and then but then, I'm not exactly normal.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-24, 01:56 PM
The Legacy of Kain series does this pretty well. There's an anti hero manipulative bastard who's more or less the protagonist(there's kind of two), a Necromancer, a demon, a time traveling wizard, and a horrible tentacled thing that may or may not be a god (he certainly claims to be, and wants people to think that of him)

Throughout the five or so games, one finds that manipulators are themselves pawns. Their power comes from the fact that they are hidden, and secret.

You're able to "win" more or less (the series kind of left on a cliff hanger, and the development team feel apart) because the two main characters are pretty special. The short version of it is, one of them has the power to break things, and the other is able to direct him to break them.


There's some videos on youtube. It's good stuff.

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 02:01 PM
I say go for it. Make it a psionically spread plague, and so not only that Telepath unwittingly spread it, but all of 'em did. That way, it doesn't feel like you're singling out that one character.

Also, you should make the plague really terrible, with hallucinations, madness, and bleeding from the eyes. Maybe infected people have bits of their mind crawl out and infect other people with their thoughts, so even though someone survives, they still hear the echoes of hundreds of people who had the plague, rattling around in their psyche.

KillianHawkeye
2008-05-24, 02:58 PM
If you want to pull this off, think of all the crime novels you've ever read. With any of them, did you feel cheated because the ************* of the author skipped some important facts? Well, unless you feel you're up to that challenge, chuck this idea to the trash can. 'Cause I sure know I have and it's not a nice feeling once Fridge Logic hits in.

Sorry, I usually read fantasy novels, so I don't know exactly what you mean. But usually any "mystery" story hinges on the timing of when necessary details are revealed to the viewers. And believe me, I'm not making up all this stuff to NOT reveal it to my players at some point. Unless I forget.


The only way I would consider this is if I dropped hints along the way that this was a definate possibility.

eg>
>Rumors of the BBEG doing something like this before (his MO)

There aren't going to BE any rumors about the BBEG, because they're a mysterious and secretive/unknown threat to the surface world. Plus, that would ruin the surprise. :smallwink:

Based on the responses thus far, I think maybe it would be better for the BBEGs to spread the plague themselves, but to arrange for the Telepath to survive it somehow. I was thinking they'd give her a seemingly mundane item (like a pendant) that secretly protects from diseases. It could have Nystul's Magic Aura on it. Then they could use the modify memory or something to make her not question the item's origin.

Sound any better to you skeptics?

FinalJustice
2008-05-24, 09:04 PM
Refrain from using Modify Memories unless you are positively sure your player will accept it.
Talk extensively with him about his backstory, seemingly with no objective in mind, better, do it with everyone. Not only you will give the impression that you have no objective other than know better, but you can get great ideas from it. You can probably pick something you can use to justify link his escape from the plague with the BBEG.

Neon Knight
2008-05-24, 10:09 PM
I'd approach this one with the utmost caution, and I would be ready to ditch it in a second. Back story is one of those things that is kinda touchy with some people. Incorporating it is fine, but erasing, rewriting, adding, and potentially invalidating portions of it? That can get ugly fast.

I personally would be dead set against the idea if you wanted to do it to me personally, but I like my character's back story to be distinctly mine, as I consider it, along with the character, to be my primary interaction with the game. It's player turf for the most part in my mind.

Others might feel differently, though.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-24, 11:14 PM
I'll put it in simple terms:

1) BBeG spreads a plague and distracts the local clerics.
2) BBeG shows up with the "miraculous cure"
3) One of the PCs trully believes the BBeG and thinks he's an ally.
4) Party goes out on search of magical McGuffin.
5) The party will, sooner or later, go "ZONG! We've been working for the villain all this time?"
6) The PC will go "What? YOU released the plague?"
7) ???
8) Profit!

I think it's a cool plot. The players, when finding out they were manipulated by the real villain, will go at his throath dipping poison through their pores :smallbiggrin:

The whole "their boss was actually the villain pretending to be good while they gathered the parts of his super-weapon" is not really an uncommon theme. Nor is the "villain secretely spread a disease to sell the cure later". If you mix it well, it will be awesome.