Vs. power as I understand it...

[Mordar]

Hi all -

Okay, so having read as much as I could handle, I think I now have a firm grasp on the power structure as evidenced by the Vs. threads.

1) Anime trumps everything - limitless power and rabid fans hold sway;

2) On occassion, Batman can edge out the weak Anime types, and clever misuse of Batman can lead to defeat of even the strongest;

3) Space Marines (and the associated God-Emperor, Adeptus Whicheverus and all the tools of the Imperium) crush everything, most things singlehandedly.

Now, it appears that points 2 & 3 are in opposition to point 1...which brings me to my hypothesis: Anime Batman is the ultimate expression of "Win" in all conflict, regardless of the situation...unless he's facing Anime Space Marine.

Now, in that rare instance, I think Batman can still pull off a victory (or at least non-defeat)...if all else fails, he can call the God-Emperor on the AniBatPhone and have the Space Marine detailed to mucking out the Xenobiology suite at the local zoo. If, however, the Space Marine is of the Space Wolves chapter, their Chapter Master Deus ex Machina will intervene and prevent anything (and anyone) from damaging the reputation of the Wolves as the most broken...er, exalted fighting force in the multiverse.

So, to refresh - Anime Space Wolves SM > Anime Batman > Anime Space Marine > Anime Anything Else > Space Marine > Batman* > Anything Not Already Covered.

* - Batman may, on occassion, jump up to 2 places in this hierarchy.

Did I miss anything?

Oh wait...now I need to figure out where Sauron, the Witch King and Wolverine fit in here...someone help!

- Mordar

[puppyavenger]

Hi all -

Okay, so having read as much as I could handle, I think I now have a firm grasp on the power structure as evidenced by the Vs. threads.

1) Anime trumps everything - limitless power and rabid fans hold sway;

2) On occassion, Batman can edge out the weak Anime types, and clever misuse of Batman can lead to defeat of even the strongest;

3) Space Marines (and the associated God-Emperor, Adeptus Whicheverus and all the tools of the Imperium) crush everything, most things singlehandedly.

Now, it appears that points 2 & 3 are in opposition to point 1...which brings me to my hypothesis: Anime Batman is the ultimate expression of "Win" in all conflict, regardless of the situation...unless he's facing Anime Space Marine.

Now, in that rare instance, I think Batman can still pull off a victory (or at least non-defeat)...if all else fails, he can call the God-Emperor on the AniBatPhone and have the Space Marine detailed to mucking out the Xenobiology suite at the local zoo. If, however, the Space Marine is of the Space Wolves chapter, their Chapter Master Deus ex Machina will intervene and prevent anything (and anyone) from damaging the reputation of the Wolves as the most broken...er, exalted fighting force in the multiverse.

So, to refresh - Anime Space Wolves SM > Anime Batman > Anime Space Marine > Anime Anything Else > Space Marine > Batman* > Anything Not Already Covered.

* - Batman may, on occassion, jump up to 2 places in this hierarchy.

Did I miss anything?

Oh wait...now I need to figure out where Sauron, the Witch King and Wolverine fit in here...someone help!

- Mordar

No your mistaken, its not just the SM, its anything 40k, also omnipotent gods( and Rastlin) are at the top.

[MeklorIlavator]

Also, several things beat the Imperium hands down, its only once you add the whole 40k to the equation that things get really bad, and even then there are plenty of things that beat it. For example Care Bears and Lensmen both beat the 40k universe.

[freerangetroll]

Care Bears are hardcore. >.<

[Tengu]

Anime Space Marine Batman! And female!

In other words, Samus Aran.

[Rutee]

SMs are on the low end of superhuman, tbh. What makes 40k powerful is sheer numbers, not the fact that any particular group has stupid powerful individual units.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Indeed. Enderverse, Star wars, Exalted, Epic D&D, Silver age DC and careful Alpha and Omega mutant Marvel use all kill the whole 40k universe around, make it wear a frilly pink dress, and call it Mary.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

SMs are on the low end of superhuman, tbh. What makes 40k powerful is sheer numbers, not the fact that any particular group has stupid powerful individual units.

*cough* The Emperor can create supernova sized explosions with his mind, and contain all the energy into a single confined blast *cough*

[Azerian Kelimon]

*cough* The Emperor can create supernova sized explosions with his mind, and contain all the energy into a single confined blast *cough*

*cough*Say hello to Epic Magic, Doctor Devices, or Sun Crushers.*Cough*

[puppyavenger]

Indeed. Enderverse, Star wars, Exalted, Epic D&D, Silver age DC and careful Alpha and Omega mutant Marvel use all kill the whole 40k universe around, make it wear a frilly pink dress, and call it Mary.

YEp, plenty of things can kill the 40k universe as is, provided they can take almost infinite amounts( or in the case of demons, truely infinite) of mooks. THey only start pwning everything once you bring in one of the more likely doomsday scenerios. Wait Star-wars? didn't Terra beat Faeruin too? Ender? Cam the Little Doctor work on demons? I don't know the mutant ranking system, but unless Magneto is capable of lifting something equivilent to all the iron on earth, he can't do much to the imperial capital ships, and the Tyranids will just kill him.

[Rutee]

*cough* The Emperor can create supernova sized explosions with his mind, and contain all the energy into a single confined blast *cough*

1. Your Emperor is dead, son
2. Perfect Defense, bitch. Or just for kicks, Sora from KH; Reflect.

[Azerian Kelimon]

YEp, plenty of things can kill the 40k universe as is, provided they can take almost infinite amounts( or in the case of demons, truely infinite) of mooks. THey only start pwning everything once you bring in one of the more likely doomsday scenerios. Wait Star-wars? didn't Terra beat Faeruin too? Ender? Cam the Little Doctor work on demons? I don't know the mutant ranking system, but unless Magneto is capable of lifting something equivilent to all the iron on earth, he can't do much to the imperial capital ships, and the Tyranids will just kill him.

Point by point:

The Sun Crusher. And it's only the meanest, mass produced things are still terrifying.

Nope, unless you count that thread in which Faerun wasn't allowed true epic magic and I had to use Prismatic Spheres and the Locate City Trick.

Indeed. Getting hit by a LD is "You Lose".

As for mutants, Cyclops can already devastate suns if adequately powered up, and he's on the lower level of Alpha's, let alone Omegas. Gambit, for example, could win singlehandedly if properly beefed up.

[Rutee]

Aren't 3 or 4 of the Omega level mutants the sorts who can rewrite reality almost completely? "No more mutants."

[Lord_Asmodeus]

1. Your Emperor is dead, son
2. Perfect Defense, bitch. Or just for kicks, Sora from KH; Reflect.

1. I am follower of Chaos, don't try and classify me.
2. You can't perfect defense (or deflect) mind rape without a mind of equal power. I.E. an impossibility.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Aren't 3 or 4 of the Omega level mutants the sorts who can rewrite reality almost completely? "No more mutants."

Correct. Gambit, following my example, exists in every portion of time once his Omega potential is tapped, and this is talking before we use any of the buffs I could find. Essentially, he's a Time Singularity.

And in fact, that's more or less half of the omegas. :smallwink:

[Adumbration]

Don't forget, Discworld defeats everything and anything.

[Azerian Kelimon]

1. I am follower of Chaos, don't try and classify me.
2. You can't perfect defense (or deflect) mind rape without a mind of equal power. I.E. an impossibility.

Say hello to Exalted. Trust me, Exalted wins.

Hell, even App 5 is more than enough to destroy all of 40K, and that's saying something since Charisma is ALWAYS the dump stat.

[puppyavenger]

Point by point:

The Sun Crusher. And it's only the meanest, mass produced things are still terrifying.

Nope, unless you count that thread in which Faerun wasn't allowed true epic magic and I had to use Prismatic Spheres and the Locate City Trick.

Indeed. Getting hit by a LD is "You Lose".

As for mutants, Cyclops can already devastate suns if adequately powered up, and he's on the lower level of Alpha's, let alone Omegas. Gambit, for example, could win singlehandedly if properly beefed up.

to reply
umm, Whats a Sun Crusher? and Death Stars are standard weoponry for cruisers
Define True epic magic
Okay, I'm just going to pull out the "infinite troops" card here
1. Why is omega more powerfull than alpha?
2. HOW IS THE EARTH STILL THERE?!?!?
3. Are they compltetly invunreable? if no then 40k can just where them down with atrition, or wait for the god-like ones to die of old-age, or send an alpha level down and watch all the demons

[Azerian Kelimon]

to reply
umm, Whats a Sun Crusher? and Death Stars are standard weoponry for cruisers
Define True epic magic
Okay, I'm just going to pull out the "infinite troops" card here
1. Why is omega more powerfull than alpha?
2. HOW IS THE EARTH STILL THERE?!?!?
3. Are they compltetly invunreable? if no then 40k can just where them down with atrition, or wait for the god-like ones to die of old-age, or send an alpha level down and watch all the demons

The Sun Crusher is what it says on the tin, a ship so powerful it could kill suns with a sneeze. I believe only Black Fortresses approach that level.

True magic: TIPPY! COME OVER 'ERE AND WHACK 'EM!

Infinite troops: More fodder. You just set off a chain reaction. Great tactics, there, getting all your army slaughtered.

1) Because En Sabah Nur said so.

2) Comic book and their laws, of course.

3) Try killing something that exists in every portion of time at the same time.

[Mordar]

Also, several things beat the Imperium hands down, its only once you add the whole 40k to the equation that things get really bad, and even then there are plenty of things that beat it. For example Care Bears and Lensmen both beat the 40k universe.


Care Bears are hardcore. >.<

For the record:

(1) As the pinnacle of the 40k-verse, SM represents the Imperium and all the assorted other riff-raff as well;

(2) Care Bears can't win...Anime Care Bears, on the other hand can beat anything not Anime Batman or Anime Space Wolves Space Marine.


SMs are on the low end of superhuman, tbh. What makes 40k powerful is sheer numbers, not the fact that any particular group has stupid powerful individual units.


Indeed. Enderverse, Star wars, Exalted, Epic D&D, Silver age DC and careful Alpha and Omega mutant Marvel use all kill the whole 40k universe around, make it wear a frilly pink dress, and call it Mary.

I think they missed the bobber...but again, for the record...do they call it Anime Mary, or just regular Mary? :smallbiggrin: You do bring up an important point for consideration, however...Anime Star Wars Luke Skywalker (and by extension Anime Dune Paul Maud'dib Atredies). They enter the hierarchy between Anime Batman and Anime Space Marine, I think.


No your mistaken...omnipotent gods( and Rastlin) are at the top.

Ah, I see what you've missed. Clearly you failed to understand that Anime Batman and Anime Space Wolves Space Marine ARE omnipotent gods. Pretty sure Anime Bats carries around a Self-sustaining Limitless Anti-Magic Metaprison, so Raistlin'd be in the SLAMMer right quick. As Vs. threads have shown Raist is the uber-est of the established uber-gods, Anime Batman thus handles all the rest of them (If A > B and B > C, A > C).

Oh - to avert future questions, Anime Batman beats Anime Luke Skywalker by pointing out that he failed to get a proper deal on residuals for the movies and thus has to work as a voice actor for Anime Joker or in cheese-filled-cameos for B-list movies. Anime Luke Skywalker spends the rest of the fight whining about how his Anime Aunt Beru and Anime Uncle Owen wouldn't let him hire an Anime Film Agent from Toshie Station, so Anime Batman wins again.

As for Anime Paul Muad'dib Atredies...well, there's a limit to even Anime Batman's patience, so he simply stops reading the Anime Dune series, leaving Anime Paul with an unfulfilled prophecy, thus shaking his confidence in his Sight and leaving him questioning the actions he has taken sending millions to their deaths in the Crusades. He is forced to turn to Anime Antidepressants to assauge his guilt and grief and, as a side effect, no longer has the will to fight (or do much of anything else). Thus, Anime Batman wins again.

You know, Anime Batman really does have a significant advantage thanks to his ability to break the fourth wall. Still, even that's not enough to beat Anime Space Wolves Space Marine (sadly).

- Mordar

[Rutee]

1. I am follower of Chaos, don't try and classify me.
2. You can't perfect defense (or deflect) mind rape without a mind of equal power. I.E. an impossibility.

Elder Solars are each roughly as powerful as the Emperor. So are Elder Lunars.

There's 300 of each. Notwithstanding that /yes/, a Perfect Defense will always trump any attack, within the fluff as well as the rules.

Also, OP, you're not terribly amusing with the appellation of "Anime" to everything.

[puppyavenger]

The Sun Crusher is what it says on the tin, a ship so powerful it could kill suns with a sneeze. I believe only Black Fortresses approach that level.

True magic: TIPPY! COME OVER 'ERE AND WHACK 'EM!

Infinite troops: More fodder. You just set off a chain reaction. Great tactics, there, getting all your army slaughtered.

1) Because En Sabah Nur said so.

2) Comic book and their laws, of course.

3) Try killing something that exists in every portion of time at the same time.

1. Does it follow the standard imperial security protacales of "clearly non-imperial ship can dock. and manage to free an improtent hostage, with the alarm only going of half-way through"
2. They need a day, and a faimiler cosmolagy
3. no, truely infinite,

[Gaelbert]

to reply
umm, Whats a Sun Crusher? and Death Stars are standard weoponry for cruisers
Define True epic magic
Okay, I'm just going to pull out the "infinite troops" card here
1. Why is omega more powerfull than alpha?
2. HOW IS THE EARTH STILL THERE?!?!?
3. Are they compltetly invunreable? if no then 40k can just where them down with atrition, or wait for the god-like ones to die of old-age, or send an alpha level down and watch all the demons

It's been a while, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but would not an LD hitting infinite troops just create an infinite explosion that goes until it can't get anymore? Which, I guess wouldn't be infinite unless it's fueled by an infinite target.

[freerangetroll]

Elder Solars are each roughly as powerful as the Emperor. So are Elder Lunars.

There's 300 of each.

Also, OP, you're not terribly amusing with the appellation of "Anime" to everything.


Actually he is.

[Azerian Kelimon]

1. Does it follow the standard imperial security protacales of "clearly non-imperial ship can dock. and manage to free an improtent hostage, with the alarm only going of half-way through"
2. They need a day, and a faimiler cosmolagy
3. no, truely infinite,

1) Nope, the sun crusher has moon vaporizing point defenses. No one enters alive, and I believe it required a heroic sacrifice to destroy. G'luck getting the Heroic part on GRIMDARK.

2) They have their own demiplane. To hell with everything else, an epic wizard will make Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Star Child say "Smack me and call me Martha!" after summoning the first Origin of the Species'ed Zodar.

3) The LD kills infinites. It's a chain reaction of molecular disintegrations, pal.

[Tengu]

And it diluted into another "WH40K vs everything" thread. Sigh. Rabid fanboys are the main reason why I prefer to make fun of it rather than genuinely like it.

[Rutee]

Actually he is.

Not really. I missed it in the OP since I'm expending most of my concentration on Sword of the New World, but.. it's almost as funny as Seth McFarlane's lame-ass attempts at validating himself by smacking everyone else that anyone in the world thinks is funny. Which is to say, not very.

And it diluted into another "WH40K vs everything" thread. Sigh. Rabid fanboys are the main reason why I prefer to make fun of it rather than genuinely like it.
Seriously, hon. I refuse to even look at Dark HEresy games on these boards, because of the way it keeps getting interpreted by most of the fans around here. Or at least, seems to be.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't know about sun crushers, but I do bring kawaii tyranids.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5121/1209839321742pg1.jpg

Seriously, I have about 500 mb of this stuff.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

2) They have their own demiplane. To hell with everything else, an epic wizard will make Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Star Child say "Smack me and call me Martha!" after summoning the first Origin of the Species'ed Zodar.

Except... not. You need to be able to interact with the warp to affect them and anyone will tell you that only beings that are naturally attuned to the warp can have power there (like the reason the Emperor COULD be more powerful than the Chaos Gods is because all humans have an innate connection to the warp) So more likely, anyone who wasn't already a warp god would become the Chaos Gods puppet if they tried to screw with them. Unless of course you want to pull them OUT of the warp, in which case reality suddenly becomes Chaos's bitch. Theres a REASON the Eldar would protect Necron Pylons, and its name is "Summon Khorne" :smallamused:

Of course, this probably proves true the other way around as well.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hell no, don't force me to attack with 40chibi.

Or chibi atropals. They're scarily cute, in a necrotic way.

[Seraph]

EVE Online would crush 40k like bugs if they weren't busy killing eachother.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Except... not. You need to be able to interact with the warp to affect them and anyone will tell you that only beings that are naturally attuned to the warp can have power there (like the reason the Emperor COULD be more powerful than the Chaos Gods is because all humans have an innate connection to the warp) So more likely, anyone who wasn't already a warp god would become the Chaos Gods puppet if they tried to screw with them. Unless of course you want to pull them OUT of the warp, in which case reality suddenly becomes Chaos's bitch. Theres a REASON the Eldar would protect Necron Pylons, and its name is "Summon Khorne" :smallamused:

Epic spell: Complete immunity. Nothing can ever do anything harmful to the recipient.

Yeah, that IS a spell, believe it or not.

[Rutee]

Oh man, EVE. I have no idea how powerful it is, but it is God damned hilarious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS7llqy-uIU)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Oh man, EVE. I have no idea how powerful it is, but it is God damned hilarious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS7llqy-uIU)

Hell, it can be funnier. I remember the story of a guy who bought a titan and was brought down by a single newbie.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Epic spell: Complete immunity. Nothing can ever do anything harmful to the recipient.

Yeah, that IS a spell, believe it or not.

Which wouldn't work in the Warp, because the Warp is a realm of pure energy which is molded by A. emotion of psychic beings (I.E. any race with a warp presence) and B. The will of the beings who inhabit it. The warp doesn't have rules like the regular universe, when you go there you are subject to the will of the beings who live there as they see things, and if you don't have the ability to effect the warp naturally, it means that everything you are and can do suddenly becomes only what the Daemons and Chaos Gods want it to be, and they want it to be... A snack. And again, I'm not placing my bets with the Chaos Gods if they go into those guys' realm.

[freerangetroll]

Epic spell: Complete immunity. Nothing can ever do anything harmful to the recipient.

Yeah, that IS a spell, believe it or not.

I think that is a perfect example of why I play White Wolf PnP.

@Rutee

Just because you don't find something amusing, does not mean others don't. I personally find it amusing because of the philosophy among certain anime enthusiasts that turning something into anime automatically makes things extra super special fun time!! *BIG EYES* better.


Hell, it can be funnier. I remember the story of a guy who bought a titan and was brought down by a single newbie.

The single "nub" used a logout exploit in which the titan's player was logged out on his end, but the ship still registered server side. No shields = go boom boom. It was quite funny when it happened though.

[chiasaur11]

Except... not. You need to be able to interact with the warp to affect them and anyone will tell you that only beings that are naturally attuned to the warp can have power there (like the reason the Emperor COULD be more powerful than the Chaos Gods is because all humans have an innate connection to the warp) So more likely, anyone who wasn't already a warp god would become the Chaos Gods puppet if they tried to screw with them. Unless of course you want to pull them OUT of the warp, in which case reality suddenly becomes Chaos's bitch. Theres a REASON the Eldar would protect Necron Pylons, and its name is "Summon Khorne" :smallamused:

Of course, this probably proves true the other way around as well.

Two words.
Pun-Pun.
You use cheese, another game summons the God of cheese. He can punch anyone, anywhere, any reality. for infinite^infinite damage. With his fists.

The lesson here is that there are some people who shouldn't be brought into these things. Pun-Pun, Squirrel Girl, and Herbie a.k.a. the Fat Fury top this list. Warhammer would start crying if we bring them in.

[Oslecamo]

Except... not. You need to be able to interact with the warp to affect them and anyone will tell you that only beings that are naturally attuned to the warp can have power there (like the reason the Emperor COULD be more powerful than the Chaos Gods is because all humans have an innate connection to the warp) So more likely, anyone who wasn't already a warp god would become the Chaos Gods puppet if they tried to screw with them. Unless of course you want to pull them OUT of the warp, in which case reality suddenly becomes Chaos's bitch. Theres a REASON the Eldar would protect Necron Pylons, and its name is "Summon Khorne" :smallamused:

Of course, this probably proves true the other way around as well.

Who cares? The wizard just extended time stop and everything that exists is his playground untill he gets bored and lets time flow again.

Not to mention immunity to pretty much anything but other epic casters is the final key.

Did I mention infinite minions of all kind?

Or shall I fill the warp with chickens?

CHICKENS FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

[Whoracle]

3) Try killing something that exists in every portion of time at the same time.

There's an interesting thing: Is each portion of time connected to the next/previous portion?
If so, then Omegas are nothing more than beings that don't die of naatural causes and have been here since creation (perhaps retroactively). Which doesn't mean that they exist further once killed. Just having been here since time immemorial doesn't mean your existance can't be discontinued.

If not, and if each and every fragment of time stands on it's own, then the Omegas have just multiplied by the amount of points in time total, which only grows their numbers (by a laaaarge margin, granted...). And as each and every one of us exists at THIS exakt point in time, one only has to cope with one iteration of the Omegas at a time.

And if multiple points in time can coexist, then it gets hairy. But time doesn't work this way, so I don't care.

[Rutee]

Just because you don't find something amusing, does not mean others don't. I personally find it amusing because of the philosophy among certain anime enthusiasts that turning something into anime automatically makes things extra super special fun time!! *BIG EYES* better.
Who has espoused that philosophy on these boards?

And what would make them worse then the people who will pick apart anime or other eastern fiction for unreality, but happily accept WH40k's GRIMDARK Logic?

Really, why should I care about anyone who supports Omega Dog Syndrome? It's the single largest crime I can imagine any nerd committing on their fellow nerds.

@Asmodeus: Morbo, Warp, etc.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Two words.
Pun-Pun.
You use cheese, another game summons the God of cheese. He can punch anyone, anywhere, any reality. for infinite^infinite damage. With his fists.

The lesson here is that there are some people who shouldn't be brought into these things. Pun-Pun, Squirrel Girl, and Herbie a.k.a. the Fat Fury top this list. Warhammer would start crying if we bring them in.

I reiterate. All your fancy magics and rule-bending awesomeness mean NOTHING in the warp, where what is true and what isn't true is subject only to the beings that live there, and the countless minds of the beings inexorably tied to the warp, birth to death. I.E. if you go into the Warp, and the Chaos Gods don't want you to have power, unless you have power in the warp yourself, you DON'T have any power. What is True and what is Untrue are in a constant state of flux, where power is measured only in your ability to affect the realm itself.

[Azerian Kelimon]

There's an interesting thing: Is each portion of time connected to the next/previous portion?
If so, then Omegas are nothing more than beings that don't die of naatural causes and have been here since creation (perhaps retroactively). Which doesn't mean that they exist further once killed. Just having been here since time immemorial doesn't mean your existance can't be discontinued.

If not, and if each and every fragment of time stands on it's own, then the Omegas have just multiplied by the amount of points in time total, which only grows their numbers (by a laaaarge margin, granted...). And as each and every one of us exists at THIS exakt point in time, one only has to cope with one iteration of the Omegas at a time.

And if multiple points in time can coexist, then it gets hairy. But time doesn't work this way, so I don't care.


If you've ever heard of the "moving through frames" Time theory, well, that's more or less how it works for Gambit. Now, imagine EVERY version of Gambit shows up in a specified frame set.

Yeah, NOTHING has a counter for that, except, maybe, Primer.

[freerangetroll]

Who has espoused that philosophy on these boards?

And what would make them worse then the people who will pick apart anime or other eastern fiction for unreality, but happily accept WH40k's GRIMDARK Logic?

Really, why should I care about anyone who supports Omega Dog Syndrome? It's the single largest crime I can imagine any nerd committing on their fellow nerds.

I never said anything about anyone from this board. Sadly my world experiences that lead to what I find amusing are not solely drawn from the playground. :(

[Illiterate Scribe]

Oh man, EVE. I have no idea how powerful it is, but it is God damned hilarious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS7llqy-uIU)

I see your EVE online robot, and raise you a Garry's Mod creation Tyrannis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP-NMpKh2Rw&feature=related).

Also AK - you're on. My Internets folder is more powerful than you can possibly imagine!

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5931/1209839498721ge7.jpg
Also, trying to avoid more rage.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I reiterate. All your fancy magics and rule-bending awesomeness mean NOTHING in the warp, where what is true and what isn't true is subject only to the beings that live there, and the countless minds of the beings inexorably tied to the warp, birth to death. I.E. if you go into the Warp, and the Chaos Gods don't want you to have power, unless you have power in the warp yourself, you DON'T have any power. What is True and what is Untrue are in a constant state of flux, where power is measured only in your ability to affect the realm itself.

Izzat so?

:belkar:

Six words:

I Bring Forth The Nameless One.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Izzat so?

:belkar:

Six words:

I Bring Forth The Nameless One.

Six words which mean nothing because I don't know the context to which they apply, and have no foreknowledge of said context to connect it to.

[chiasaur11]

I reiterate. All your fancy magics and rule-bending awesomeness mean NOTHING in the warp, where what is true and what isn't true is subject only to the beings that live there, and the countless minds of the beings inexorably tied to the warp, birth to death. I.E. if you go into the Warp, and the Chaos Gods don't want you to have power, unless you have power in the warp yourself, you DON'T have any power. What is True and what is Untrue are in a constant state of flux, where power is measured only in your ability to affect the realm itself.

Herbie went to hell. He beat Satan senseless. He did this with a lollypop. Trust me, you do not want to mess with the Fat Fury. If he wants to control the warp...

You give him the #%^$ warp. Or else.

[freerangetroll]

Q's say you all lose.

Isn't it lovely how every setting has an answer for every other setting.

Hell, a baby from the Deathstalker series brought millions of planets and billions of people back to life by dreaming it!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Six words which mean nothing because I don't know the context to which they apply, and have no foreknowledge of said context to connect it to.

You don't know...

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

No surprise you defend 40K so rabidly. Poor soul....

[freerangetroll]

You don't know...

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

No surprise you defend 40K so rabidly. Poor soul....

Best PCRPG ever. Well, maybe fallout 1/2 beat it, but not by much!

[Oslecamo]

I reiterate. All your fancy magics and rule-bending awesomeness mean NOTHING in the warp, where what is true and what isn't true is subject only to the beings that live there, and the countless minds of the beings inexorably tied to the warp, birth to death. I.E. if you go into the Warp, and the Chaos Gods don't want you to have power, unless you have power in the warp yourself, you DON'T have any power. What is True and what is Untrue are in a constant state of flux, where power is measured only in your ability to affect the realm itself.

WARP DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

Mainly because there's a blue wolfes company in the warp since the Horus heresy, constantly killing demons and whatnot, and not even the reality bending of the chaosgods seems to be able to stop them. And this is just a company of SM, not a guy who can nuke universes at will and breack every rule that exists.

Not to mention, the D&D wizard's job is to bend reality. He can probably kill the chaos gods whitout even needing to enter the warp, in a million diferent ways.

[Seraph]

Oh man, EVE. I have no idea how powerful it is, but it is God damned hilarious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS7llqy-uIU)

let me put it this way.

your average cannonfodder battleship in EVE tops a kilometer. Dreadnoughts reach four or five, and titans are about 14 or 15 km long each. each faction has at least a hundred dreadnaughts, Titans are becoming more and more common every day, and there's no point trying to make a number of battleships because the sheer combat turnover makes the number change every few minutes.

[Rutee]

I never said anything about anyone from this board. Sadly my world experiences that lead to what I find amusing are not solely drawn from the playground. :(

So the idiot WH40k fans get a free pass, but the idiot anime ones don't?
???

Can't stand anything that strengthens Omega Dog syndrome, at any rate. We're all nerds. There's no sense in getting a sense of superiority based on your hobby, as is all too common. Our hobbies are different expressions of nerddom, all interesting and equal on their own, even if they don't match our tastes

Technically I should be espousing this for people as a general rule, but I can't even get nerds to agree that they're nerd hobbies are all equal, so I hold no hope of getting people to agree that their hobbies are all about as good as each other.


I see your EVE online robot, and raise you a Garry's Mod creation Tyrannis.
That wasn't a robot! That was someone launching one of the best ships possible.. without actually getting inside it first! I don't think EVE has robots...

[Lord_Asmodeus]

You don't know...

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

You don't know about Planescape Torment?

No surprise you defend 40K so rabidly. Poor soul....

*twitch* don't make me bitch slap you fanboy. I defend 40k by wrote of the rules to which its universe applies. I.E. I'm saying you can't just walk into the Warp and say "oh well this guy wins because he can do this in his universe" well none of that applies in the warp, because its the WARP, it has its own rules, and its rules are "When a warp entity which has a more powerful warp presence than you says its so, ITS SO" I'm not saying the Chaos Gods can waltz into any other universe and lay the smack down, I'm saying that in the Warp, THEIR WORLD, they are the ultimate authority, no ifs ands or buts.

[Seraph]

*twitch* don't make me bitch slap you fanboy.

pot, kettle, etc.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

pot, kettle, etc.

I'm a fanboy, but I'm not a fanboy who belittles other fanboys for not being fanboys of the things I'm a fanboy of.

[freerangetroll]

So the idiot WH40k fans get a free pass, but the idiot anime ones don't?
???


Nah, LA is just as annoying. I was just responding to your specific question.

I have more fandoms then I think any sane human being should have, and tend to give them equal play as far as discussions like these go. Heck, I even enjoy some anime. Stuff that is more along the lines of Last Exile or Miyazaki's works.

Having said that forever, I tend to poke fun at and mock anyone who takes a specific fandom too seriously.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Asmodeus: You're pitting 40K against Words more powerful than Swords, against a candidate for best story ever, and for Best characterizations too. Really, you deserve pity, because you're missing out on one of humanity's best works. The versus argument is over, getting you to play P:T is a much bigger priority.

Rutee: Didn't you know the first rule of Nerds? We're masochists who enjoy throwing acidic barbs at each other and still like everyone and manage to stay together. This thread is but an expression of camaraderie and companionship.

[GoC]

Silver Age Superman and Sauron are tied for the top spot.

[freerangetroll]

Asmodeus: You're pitting 40K against Words more powerful than Swords, against a candidate for best story ever, and for Best characterizations too. Really, you deserve pity, because you're missing out on one of humanity's best works. The versus argument is over, getting you to play P:T is a much bigger priority.

Rutee: Didn't you know the first rule of Nerds? We're masochists who enjoy throwing acidic barbs at each other and still like everyone and manage to stay together. This thread is but an expression of camaraderie and companionship.

Any game that allows you to psychoanalyze the last boss to death is an instant winner

[Oslecamo]

Technically I should be espousing this for people as a general rule, but I can't even get nerds to agree that they're nerd hobbies are all equal, so I hold no hope of getting people to agree that their hobbies are all about as good as each other.



You start to see the actual truth.

All nerd hobbies are equal, but some nerd hobbies are more equal than others.

[Rutee]

I have more fandoms then I think any sane human being should have, and tend to give them equal play as far as discussions like these go. Heck, I even enjoy some anime. Stuff that is more along the lines of Last Exile or Miyazaki's works.
Yeah, I know how that goes. I have enough nerd-doms that I feel I earned this avatar, and enough pirating skill that what stops me from partaking in everything is the fact that I'm mortal.

Now if you'll excuse me my baroque period awesometastic swordswoman, gunner, and cleric scout, and beat the hell out of evil priests and stuff.

[Azerian Kelimon]

We still love each other though. I'd count all of you guys as friends.




For some reason, I have the feeling I'm playing the part of Simon in The Lord of The Flies....

[freerangetroll]

Yeah, I know how that goes. I have enough nerd-doms that I feel I earned this avatar, and enough pirating skill that what stops me from partaking in everything is the fact that I'm mortal.

Now if you'll excuse me my baroque period awesometastic swordswoman, gunner, and cleric scout, and beat the hell out of evil priests and stuff.

Does that stand up to my Rahu Ironmaster GRIMDARK inquisitor Q from the netherverse?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Can't stand anything that strengthens Omega Dog syndrome, at any rate. We're all nerds. There's no sense in getting a sense of superiority based on your hobby, as is all too common. Our hobbies are different expressions of nerddom, all interesting and equal on their own, even if they don't match our tastes

Actually, I'd characterise it as the longstanding epic struggle between neckbeard and weeaboo (neither used pejoratively; I can hardly throw stones from the delicate Murano glassmaker's shop in which I stand); the issue is, both settings are fundamentally different genres and styles of story-telling. It's eternal, pointless, and stupid, but hey, this is the internet - are you asking people to be reasonable?

Also, Necron pirates.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1162726/images/763.jpg

[GoC]

Lord_Asmodeus: D&D epic wizards don't have to play by the rules of the warp.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Lord_Asmodeus: D&D epic wizards don't have to play by the rules of the warp.

In the warp they do, just like in a D&D setting like Faerun the Chaos Gods have to obey the laws of magic.

[Rutee]

Does that stand up to my Rahu Ironmaster GRIMDARK inquisitor Q from the netherverse?

Probably not, but it's damn fun. Also free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_the_New_World


- are you asking people to be reasonable?
Yes, that's why I'm doomed to failure.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Probably not, but it's damn fun. Also free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_the_New_World


Yes, that's why I'm doomed to failure.

*Breathes in the air* Phew. The implementation of multiple controllables was not good enough. My idea is still safe.

[GoC]

In the warp they do, just like in a D&D setting like Faerun the Chaos Gods have to obey the laws of magic.

In the warp they don't. They give themselves chaos plane destruction as an Ex ability. Congrats, the warp just got removed from existence.

[Rutee]

*Breathes in the air* Phew. The implementation of multiple controllables was not good enough. My idea is still safe.

Eh? Is that what Wikipedia is saying? It's pretty damn well done... I can be pretty awful about it, but I'm bad at RTS, which it's fundamentally similar to. :P

[Lord_Asmodeus]

In the warp they don't. They give themselves chaos plane destruction as an Ex ability. Congrats, the warp just got removed from existence.

My god, and people think 40k fanboys are arrogant and unrealistic. If you are in the warp, I don't care what ****ed up universe you come from, you HAVE TO OBEY THE LAWS OF THE WARP. And by the laws of the Warp, you need to either
A. be a creature native to the warp or
B. be a creature that is connected to the warp
to effect it.

As it stands a D&D wizard in the warp is just so much dead meat, because D&D magic which would allow him to use all his fantastic abilities, doesn't apply.

What you're saying is akin to if I said, because in the Warp the Chaos Gods can pretty much run roughshod over everyone, the same must apply everywhere, because by the rules of their realm they can, so why not everywhere else?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Eh? Is that what Wikipedia is saying? It's pretty damn well done... I can be pretty awful about it, but I'm bad at RTS, which it's fundamentally similar to. :P

What I mean is, it's not self sufficient. The AI is not attacking and dodging alone, or pulling combination attacks without guidance, or healing itself as needed. THAT is the AI I'm planning (Incidentally, another element of The Plan is a true Action RPG, in which you can actually jump, fly, dodge, do Street Fighter-esque personalized combos, etc.).

I could expound on this, mostly because I love talking about my projects, if you want a bigger explanation.

[Rutee]

What I mean is, it's not self sufficient. The AI is not attacking and dodging alone, or pulling combination attacks without guidance, or healing itself as needed. THAT is the AI I'm planning (Incidentally, another element of The Plan is a true Action RPG, in which you can actually jump, fly, dodge, do Street Fighter-esque personalized combos, etc.).

I could expound on this, mostly because I love talking about my projects, if you want a bigger explanation.

Er.. yes, the game does its own healing. People 'grind' by going AFK with a Scout in a healing stance. It'll also handle auto attacks alone. The AI is sufficient for peons, which is just the way I like it; Not enough to handle bosses or other special types of fights, but enough to handle minions. Same reason I love Homeworld 2: Point Defense Mod. The AI handles the tactics, you do the strategy. And it works.

[MeklorIlavator]

If that's the case then no vs thread between universes is viable, as we have pretty much shown that all universes work on a different physics engine, and if they would have to play by the rules or another universe they would just fall apart. The only way to have viable vs thread is to assume that the rules each universe works by allow for the other one to work.

Also, what about the many stories of other forces going into the warp and surviving for some time, such as that one eldar craft world, that one division of space wolves, or the space marine squad that went in? Are those dropped from canon because you said so?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Er.. yes, the game does its own healing. People 'grind' by going AFK with a Scout in a healing stance. It'll also handle auto attacks alone. The AI is sufficient for peons, which is just the way I like it; Not enough to handle bosses or other special types of fights, but enough to handle minions. Same reason I love Homeworld 2: Point Defense Mod. The AI handles the tactics, you do the strategy. And it works.

What about flanking? Hammer and surround tactics? Dig in the earth and surprise 'em? Automatically scouting any map you are in? THAT is the kind of thing I'm trying to one day pull off. An AI that can do it's own tactics, that wil have a response for any situation, and that is capable of strange and innovative attacks.

[Emperor Tippy]

Warhammer 40K is at the low end of the high power spectrum.

The Systems Commonwealth eats it for breakfast, hell they could make the IoM a non issue with 1 ship.

A good dozen or so other groups could do it as well, including signal individuals. Phoenix, for instance, erases them from time with a thought.

D&D epic magic can take on the Chaos gods. First off you can just erase their concept from existence, in which case the god ceases to exist. Next, you (as a native of the warp) just go and bitch slap them.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

If that's the case then no vs thread between universes is viable, as we have pretty much shown that all universes work on a different physics engine, and if they would have to play by the rules or another universe they would just fall apart. The only way to have viable vs thread is to assume that the rules each universe works by allow for the other one to work.

Also, what about the many stories of other forces going into the warp and surviving for some time, such as that one eldar craft world, that one division of space wolves, or the space marine squad that went in? Are those dropped from canon because you said so?

Vs. Threads rely on a middle ground being reached between universes, that allow both universes to utilize their powers. The same is not so when you just dump someone who's universe relies on a totally different set of rules into another dimension where those rules don't apply.

As for those people, they had the mental and physical capabilities to survive. The Eldar are all talented psykers, and they can fight, and Space Wolves are powerful warriors. They were enough to destroy the Daemons that tried to kill them, if the Chaos Gods or any highly powerful Daemons had tried to kill them, they would have died, but most creatures either don't take interest, or weren't powerful enough to face up to the Eldars collective psyker power. A single wizard, without the aid of his magic, is just one person against the unknown horrors of the warp, he wouldn't stand a chance.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Oh, for a sage function on this forum.

[GoC]

My god, and people think 40k fanboys are arrogant and unrealistic. If you are in the warp, I don't care what ****ed up universe you come from, you HAVE TO OBEY THE LAWS OF THE WARP. And by the laws of the Warp, you need to either
A. be a creature native to the warp or
B. be a creature that is connected to the warp
to effect it.
There's a spell specifically allowing you to do that. It makes the plane you're on take on the traits of your native plane. Just activate it before traveling to the warp. And make a version almost infinite in size.
There's another spell that allows you to bend a plane of chaos to suit your needs.
Both are in Spell Compedium.


As it stands a D&D wizard in the warp is just so much dead meat, because D&D magic which would allow him to use all his fantastic abilities, doesn't apply.
It's not magic anymore, it's an innate ability.

[Rutee]

What about flanking? Hammer and surround tactics? Dig in the earth and surprise 'em? Automatically scouting any map you are in? THAT is the kind of thing I'm trying to one day pull off. An AI that can do it's own tactics, that wil have a response for any situation, and that is capable of strange and innovative attacks.

None of those are possible within the system (Flanking is a nonissue). And an AI that can do its own tactics in a squad based game defeats the purpose of the game. You have to bear in mind what you're dealing with. The AI doing tactics in Homeworld is fine; Homeworld exists on the strategic level. If there's all those special attacks, I can surmise the game exists primarily on the tactical level. In which case you /don't/ want to make the AI that capable.

[Innis Cabal]

The Warp is not a plane. Planer magics do not work within it

[Azerian Kelimon]

None of those are possible within the system (Flanking is a nonissue). And an AI that can do its own tactics in a squad based game defeats the purpose of the game. You have to bear in mind what you're dealing with. The AI doing tactics in Homeworld is fine; Homeworld exists on the strategic level. If there's all those special attacks, I can surmise the game exists primarily on the tactical level. In which case you /don't/ want to make the AI that capable.

Okay, I admit I exaggerated, but that's still the kind of thing I aim for: An AI competent enough that it is better than most players. For example, in an ARPG game, that AI is going to pull off combination attacks, heal, dodge, and more, but it's going to be very uncreative with the uses of multipliers and combos because current AI is not advanced enough to do true improvisation. For example, the AI might chain a Cross Cut and Double Slash, but a player will probably chain a Cross Cut to Double Slash to Minigun Barrage to Crescent Kick to Annihilator beam in the time the AI pulls it's combo off. See where I'm heading with this? I want an AI that actually MAKES a player sweat and think he or she's facing a dangerous enemy or has valuable allies.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

There's a spell specifically allowing you to do that. It makes the plane you're on take on the traits of your native plane. Just activate it before traveling to the warp. And make a version almost infinite in size.
There's another spell that allows you to bend a plane of chaos to suit your needs.
Both are in Spell Compedium.

As Innis Cabal said, its not a plane, not as its understood by D&D, its its own realm of existence which defies the laws of reality.


It's not magic anymore, it's an innate ability.

Which relies upon the laws of a realm who's laws no longer apply. If you randomly dumped an alpha + level psyker in Faerun, he'd be a regular guy, because the Warp has no effect on Faerun because its laws are different, and so his warp-given powers don't apply.

[Azerian Kelimon]

As Innis Cabal said, its not a plane, not as its understood by D&D, its its own realm of existence which defies the laws of reality.



Which relies upon the laws of a realm who's laws no longer apply. If you randomly dumped an alpha + level psyker in Faerun, he'd be a regular guy, because the Warp has no effect on Faerun because its laws are different, and so his warp-given powers don't apply.

Wrong, he'd be an epic level Psion. You just don't want to take other views, is all.

[Emperor Tippy]

As for those people, they had the mental and physical capabilities to survive. The Eldar are all talented psykers, and they can fight, and Space Wolves are powerful warriors. They were enough to destroy the Daemons that tried to kill them, if the Chaos Gods or any highly powerful Daemons had tried to kill them, they would have died, but most creatures either don't take interest, or weren't powerful enough to face up to the Eldars collective psyker power. A single wizard, without the aid of his magic, is just one person against the unknown horrors of the warp, he wouldn't stand a chance.

Yes, we know you think that the Chaos God's are bad ass. But you seem to be failing to understand just how bas ass epic wizards are. I can make a wizard who can singlehandedly take on every space marine, every Adeptus Custodes, every ork, every eldar, every Chaos space marine, and every psyker, and every Imperial Guard at the same time. Or in successive 1v1 bouts. A wizard who can take out the entire Battle Fleet Sol with the flick of a wrist. A wizard who can take out every single planet, star, individual, and piece of matter within a hundred light years with a thought.

And a wizard who can force the Chaos Gods out of the warp and into the real world.

Oh, and I can mass produce perfectly loyal soldiers with all of those same abilities and more. And produce them faster than Orks, seeing as they double every round.

[GoC]

The Warp is not a plane. Planer magics do not work within it

The warp is a plane of existence in that it is a place where things exist. Thus planar magic works.

And it doesn't matter because it takes on your home plane traits (including magic) the moment you travel to it.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Wrong, he'd be an epic level Psion. You just don't want to take other views, is all.

:smallyuk: No, he would be an epic level psion if you said "and for the point of this debate, he gets all his powers and is an epic level psion" because without giving a relevant reason for why their powers suddenly work in a universe where your universes laws don't apply. You can't just plop someone somewhere, without explaining WHY they can still do all the things they used to be able to, and expect them to... be able to do everything they used to. Saying "Because in D&D epic wizards are this awesome, they should be this awesome in 40k" is as ridiculously arrogant as saying "Well in 40k the Emperor is the most powerful being around, so he would instantly be the most powerful being around in any universe" where the only implied explanation is "because I said so":smallannoyed:


The warp is a plane of existence in that it is a place where things exist. Thus planar magic works.

And it doesn't matter because it takes on your home plane traits (including magic) the moment you travel to it.

Yea, but this is a D&D SPELL, which relies on the fact that the universe runs on the laws of D&D, the warp DOESN'T so unless you can think of a good reason other than "it works in this universe" it WON'T WORK.

[Azerian Kelimon]

:smallyuk: No, he would be an epic level psion if you said "and for the point of this debate, he gets all his powers and is an epic level psion" because without giving a relevant reason for why their powers suddenly work in a universe where your universes laws don't apply. You can't just plop someone somewhere, without explaining WHY they can still do all the things they used to be able to, and expect them to... be able to do everything they used to. Saying "Because in D&D epic wizards are this awesome, they should be this awesome in 40k" is as ridiculously arrogant as saying "Well in 40k the Emperor is the most powerful being around, so he would instantly be the most powerful being around in any universe" where the only implied explanation is "because I said so":smallannoyed:

Because I said So is what an author does to create your Emperor or Psykers, So it's only fair we can Because I say So as the authors of versus threads. Hell, if I could clean up and deliver a satisfying definition for the Conan/Witch King versus thread, bet your eyes that I can and will do it for anything 40K you can throw at me.

[Emperor Tippy]

:smallyuk: No, he would be an epic level psion if you said "and for the point of this debate, he gets all his powers and is an epic level psion" because without giving a relevant reason for why their powers suddenly work in a universe where your universes laws don't apply. You can't just plop someone somewhere, without explaining WHY they can still do all the things they used to be able to, and expect them to... be able to do everything they used to. Saying "Because in D&D epic wizards are this awesome, they should be this awesome in 40k" is as ridiculously arrogant as saying "Well in 40k the Emperor is the most powerful being around, so he would instantly be the most powerful being around in any universe" where the only implied explanation is "because I said so":smallannoyed:

Yes, the psyker doesn't get any of his powers, as they are tied to the warp. That doesn't stop the wizard from making use of his innate, physical abilities. If a Space Marine was dropped into Faerun or Eberron would he keep his strength? His acid split? His healing? His super bones? If you answer yes to any of those then the wizard wins.

Because destroying everything within a hundred light years is an innate, non magical, ability. Just like all his other abilities.

[GoC]

Yea, but this is a D&D SPELL, which relies on the fact that the universe runs on the laws of D&D, the warp DOESN'T so unless you can think of a good reason other than "it works in this universe" it WON'T WORK.

It doesn't rely on anything, it literally makes D&D laws apply in the warp.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes, the psyker doesn't get any of his powers, as they are tied to the warp. That doesn't stop the wizard from making use of his innate, physical abilities. If a Space Marine was dropped into Faerun or Eberron would he keep his strength? His acid split? His healing? His super bones? If you answer yes to any of those then the wizard wins.

Yes because those things aren't directly tied to the laws of his universe like the usage of the Warp is, those are things which are directly applied to the Space Marine himself, and not his universe, just like a lion is a lion in 40k or D&D.


Because destroying everything within a hundred light years is an innate, non magical, ability. Just like all his other abilities.

Explain how a WIZARDS power is a non-magical ability, which in no way relies on the laws of his own universe to make it work.


Because I said So is what an author does to create your Emperor or Psykers, So it's only fair we can Because I say So as the authors of versus threads. Hell, if I could clean up and deliver a satisfying definition for the Conan/Witch King versus thread, bet your eyes that I can and will do it for anything 40K you can throw at me.

But you have to SAY SO. You can't just randomly dump someone in a universe and have all his abilities, with no explanation at all. If there isn't a reason, even so much as an "I made the VS. and I say it works" then it DOESN'T WORK.


It doesn't rely on anything, it literally makes D&D laws apply in the warp.

It relies on D&D laws to apply to make one realms laws apply somewhere else. In a realm where none of the basic laws of D&D apply, it WILL NOT WORK.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes because those things aren't directly tied to the laws of his universe like the usage of the Warp is, those are things which are directly applied to the Space Marine himself, and not his universe, just like a lion is a lion in 40k or D&D.



Explain how a WIZARDS power is a non-magical ability, which in no way relies on the laws of his own universe to make it work.

Casting, and Epic Spellcasting, is an Ex ability. No, Seriously. Does that answer the question?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Casting, and Epic Spellcasting, is an Ex ability. No, Seriously. Does that answer the question?

Ex ability? (I'm a bit rusty on my D&D terminology)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Just one thing now: :belkar:

We Win.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I take the Avatar from the old eldar book, and give him whatsernames (y'know, that spiritseer) Armour of Vaul, and then, I dunno, the pariah ability.

WHERE IS YOUR EPIC MAGIC NOW, WIZARD???!!?

ON THE RECEIVING END OF MY 2 S3 ATTACKS/TURN!!!
;)

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Just one thing now: :belkar:

We Win.

See, doing crap like saying "We Win." is the kind of **** that makes me want to say "**** you" (not that I am, I'm just saying, its really annoying, and it doesn't make me want to be "reasonable") . For all your whining and complaining about how unreasonable 40k fans are, you guys are blind to your own hubris.

Tell me, what gives Epic Wizards the ability to use their Extraordinary Abilities. What innate power allows them to do so?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Dunno, enjoying the tickles they cause due to the Immunity to all harmful effects spell? :smallwink:

[Innis Cabal]

extrodinary ability, and i dont know what cracked out book your reading but spell casting is not an Ex ability, its not.

[Azerian Kelimon]

See, doing crap like saying "We Win." is the kind of **** that makes me want to say "**** you" (not that I am, I'm just saying, its really annoying, and it doesn't make me want to be "reasonable") . For all your whining and complaining about how unreasonable 40k fans are, you guys are blind to your own hubris.

Tell me, what gives Epic Wizards the ability to use their Extraordinary Abilities. What innate power allows them to do so?

This, of course:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm

[Illiterate Scribe]

Dunno, enjoying the tickles they cause due to the Immunity to all harmful effects spell? :smallwink:

Do you have immunity to failing capture 3+/5 victory points in an escalation battle, heretic scum?

STAB!

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes because those things aren't directly tied to the laws of his universe like the usage of the Warp is, those are things which are directly applied to the Space Marine himself, and not his universe, just like a lion is a lion in 40k or D&D.
Ok, so those things which are directly tied to the wizard get to transfer.


Explain how a WIZARDS power is a non-magical ability, which in no way relies on the laws of his own universe to make it work.
The Wizard uses and Origin of the Species spell to pile all of these abilities (and more) onto a creature of his creation as at will, free action, Ex abilities. One of those abilities is the ability to create more of its kind. Another is complete loyalty to the wizard. A third is a true mind switch. The first one creates a second, which is now nonmagical. The second uses its true mind switch to change places with the wizard and the wizard now gets all of those abilities. The wizard is now dropped into 40K land and makes the god emperor his bitch.


It relies on D&D laws to apply to make one realms laws apply somewhere else. In a realm where none of the basic laws of D&D apply, it WILL NOT WORK.
None of this depends on the base laws of the D&D universe. Everyone of these abilities is just as natural as breathing, and as independent of the warp or magic.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

This all smells suspiciously of the dreaded "rules wank" where people use the game rules to try and represent their universe, despite the obvious folly of doing so.

[Rutee]

This all smells suspiciously of the dreaded "rules wank" where people use the game rules to try and represent their universe, despite the obvious folly of doing so.

Just because 40k completely divorces fluff from rules on an incredible level doesn't mean every game does so.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Just because 40k completely divorces fluff from rules on an incredible level doesn't mean every game does so.

Oh yes, because I like 40k, everything I say must be based solely on my experiences of dealing with 40k related things right? WRONG. I've seen enough versus threads on forums with their own sub-forums DEVOTED to VS threads to know that mixing game rules with fluff too much when trying to represent one side of a VS is a BAD IDEA. If you use game rules I can say things like "oh well Terran battlecruisers must not be strong because Terran Marines can kill it" or "Well he has to role dice to use any of his abilities, physical or otherwise". Using game rules in versus debates is a bad idea. Always. Only when all you have is the rules should you start using them alot. I mean using the rules here and there, whatever, but the whole rule of "no game rules" thing is to prevent just such fanwank as this epic casters thing. Sure, by using loopholes and stuff in the rules you could probably make a guy who can do anything, but its not really a fair comparison because I'M basing MY side of the argument on pure fluff, and in D&D fluff that I've seen, people don't get that powerful unless they're GODS.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Just because 40k completely divorces fluff from rules on an incredible level doesn't mean every game does so.

Not in every instance - the Specialist Games (Inquisitor, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic) range followed background quite closely.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh yes, because I like 40k, everything I say must be based solely on my experiences of dealing with 40k related things right? WRONG. I've seen enough versus threads on forums with their own sub-forums DEVOTED to VS threads to know that mixing game rules with fluff too much when trying to represent one side of a VS is a BAD IDEA. If you use game rules I can say things like "oh well Terran battlecruisers must not be strong because Terran Marines can kill it" or "Well he has to role dice to use any of his abilities, physical or otherwise". Using game rules in versus debates is a bad idea. Always. Only when all you have is the rules should you start using them alot. I mean using the rules here and there, whatever, but the whole rule of "no game rules" thing is to prevent just such fanwank as this epic casters thing. Sure, by using loopholes and stuff in the rules you could probably make a guy who can do anything, but its not really a fair comparison because I'M basing MY side of the argument on pure fluff, and in D&D fluff that I've seen, people don't get that powerful unless they're GODS.

D&D doesn't have "fluff". Various settings have "fluff", which varies wildly between settings. But D&D doesn't.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Tippy, just wondering, but which GM is rubber stamping your epic spells? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)

[Lord_Asmodeus]

D&D doesn't have "fluff". Various settings have "fluff", which varies wildly between settings. But D&D doesn't.

"fluff" is a wide term meaning all works of fiction which apply in a realistic way. I.E. short stories and books. They are the closest things to fluff D&D has, and there are a lot of them.

[freerangetroll]

D&D doesn't have "fluff". Various settings have "fluff", which varies wildly between settings. But D&D doesn't.

Erm.. Dragonlance? Salvatore books? I'm sure there is more. I don't see any Drow rolling dice or comparing will saves.

[Rutee]

Not in every instance - the Specialist Games (Inquisitor, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic) range followed background quite closely.

That's good to hear. I understand seperation of fluff and mechanics for balance reasons, of course, it's just the sheer disconnect most of 40k puts forth makes me go "Why not just write the fluff to have more parity?"


Oh yes, because I like 40k, everything I say must be based solely on my experiences of dealing with 40k related things right?
No, but you're confusing capabilities with specific statistical things. What tippy is referring to isn't Rules wank or clever statistical abuse. It's "Wizards can do this"

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, just wondering, but which GM is rubber stamping your epic spells? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)
Pun-Pun proudly prefers pink ponies

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Erm.. Dragonlance? Salvatore books? I'm sure there is more. I don't see any Drow rolling dice or comparing will saves.

There are indeed a hell of a lot of books on various D&D settings (but mainly the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dragonlance)

[Emperor Tippy]

"fluff" is a wide term meaning all works of fiction which apply in a realistic way. I.E. short stories and books. They are the closest things to fluff D&D has, and there are a lot of them.


Erm.. Dragonlance? Salvatore books? I'm sure there is more. I don't see any Drow rolling dice or comparing will saves.

Yes, and its all setting specific. D&D doesn't have fluff. Dragonlance has fluff. Eberron has fluff. Greyhawk has fluff. Faerun has fluff.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes, and its all setting specific. D&D doesn't have fluff. Dragonlance has fluff. Eberron has fluff. Greyhawk has fluff. Faerun has fluff.

And those are all various D&D settings. Just like books about Necromunda and the HH are 40k books, they are all D&D books, just put in various D&D settings.

[freerangetroll]

No, but you're confusing capabilities with specific statistical things. What tippy is referring to isn't Rules wank or clever statistical abuse. It's "Wizards can do this"


Technically only a few beings in DnD fluff or lore can do what Mr. Tippy is talking about doing.

I mean the premier wizards in DnD such as Elminster, Blackstaff, Hallister didn't even really do crap like tippy is talking about.

Edit: Aw crap, I just realised Tippy is a know it all rules lawyer who has Javalins and Chinooks on stand by.

/beats head against brick wall

[Illiterate Scribe]

That's good to hear. I understand seperation of fluff and mechanics for balance reasons, of course, it's just the sheer disconnect most of 40k puts forth makes me go "Why not just write the fluff to have more parity?"

Well, it cuts both ways. Inquisitor, for example, ran into trouble because there really is no satisfactory way of balancing characters, bar story-telling by the GM. I think that the reason that they don't rewrite the background is because of the whole 'refuge in audacity' thing that they've got going on.

Smurfs in Inquisitor are horrifically nasty - but that just makes it all the more satisfying when you bring one down (an event only made more frequent by my frequent manifestations of the 'Vortex of Chaos' power).


No, but you're confusing capabilities with specific statistical things. What tippy is referring to isn't Rules wank or clever statistical abuse. It's "Wizards can do this"

With an FDR-style '100 days' rubber stamping GM. :smallwink:

[Rutee]

Isn't Blackstaff only level 16? Elminster also really only exists to bang anyone Ed Greenwood wants. Also those are *FR*, not DnD period.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Pun-Pun proudly prefers pink ponies

Pun-pun is your GM? Damn.

Talk about impartial refs ...

[LBO]

I don't know about sun crushers, but I do bring kawaii tyranids.

Seriously, I have about 500 mb of this stuff.
Share. SHARE, GODDAMMIT. I need moar.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Isn't Blackstaff only level 16? Elminster also really only exists to bang anyone Ed Greenwood wants. Also those are *FR*, not DnD period.

The only example of the stuff tippy is talking about I can think of is Pun-Pun, and he's just the kind of "rules wank" character I'm talking about. The only reason he works is by taking advantage of the D&D rules system, and isn't realistically possible by any "logical" application of D&D. Put simply, Pun-Pun is only what Pun-Pun is by taking advantage of the rules.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Share. SHARE, GODDAMMIT. I need moar.

OK, I'll rapidsugar the lot of it. Problem is, it's scattered over about five thousand files all with file names like '1210715829082'. It will be transmitted, though.

[freerangetroll]

Isn't Blackstaff only level 16? Elminster also really only exists to bang anyone Ed Greenwood wants. Also those are *FR*, not DnD period.

Not sure on his exact level. So you may be correct there. I'll go look up the other DnD settings and see if anybody short of gods actually does what Tippy is claiming.

[Innis Cabal]

Blackstaff is level 31, btw, and no one makes suns and alters the world in such a way that it would be a catastrophy. FR has Ao, and Ao dosnt like people screwing with his sandbox, even if he dosnt care about it. See the Time of Troubles and what he did to the gods for messing with his playground
Not to mention when the good guys start pulling out world rending magic, the villians do to, and then everyone who can use epic level magic, and in FR thats -alot- of people, start whipping around all their power and well you get the idea. Mutally assured destruction is never a good thing

[Illiterate Scribe]

Blackstaff is level 31, btw

He's been power-levelling in the Abyss, evidently.

[Elidyr]

When did epic D&D mages become so powerful? From what I remember, epic Forgotten realms mages werent that strong, and FR has a lot of overpowered characters.

And what's the point of D&D gods when you have mages running around shooting lasers out of their eyes and throwing suns at each other?

[freerangetroll]

When did epic D&D mages become so powerful? From what I remember, epic Forgotten realms mages werent that strong, and FR has a lot of overpowered characters.

And what's the point of D&D gods when you have mages running around shooting lasers out of their eyes and throwing suns at each other?

I think the mages took up a prestige class called "We actually play exalted."

[Innis Cabal]

he's stated as a level 20 wizard(Chosen of Mystra but who the hell isnt) arcmage 3 and has 4 epic levels, so he is 27, sorry for the mistake but his CR is 31 so even if he's only level 25 he is a challange to 4 people higher leveled then himself

[LBO]

OK, I'll rapidsugar the lot of it. Problem is, it's scattered over about five thousand files all with file names like '1210715829082'. It will be transmitted, though.
You are awesome and you deliver.

In return: http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/khornetear.jpg

[Mordar]

Also, OP, you're not terribly amusing with the appellation of "Anime" to everything.

(and)

Originally Posted by freerangetroll: Actually he is.

Not really. I missed it in the OP since I'm expending most of my concentration on Sword of the New World, but.. it's almost as funny as Seth McFarlane's lame-ass attempts at validating himself by smacking everyone else that anyone in the world thinks is funny. Which is to say, not very.

I'm sorry you weren't amused. I'm sorry you were insulted by a parody that was equal in its targetting of Anime, 40k and comic books. I'm sorry you didn't recognize the silliness of the post as being, at least in part, self-deprecation and felt it was, instead, an attack on a genre you enjoy. I thought it would be more clear, but it wasn't.

I certainly wasn't trying to build myself up by smacking those topics, in no small part because:

I am an Anime fan, though certainly not to the depths at which I'd get every reference tossed around on these boards. I chose to poke a little fun at the incredible power-scale present in the genre as a whole.

I am a (or at least was a) frequent Warhammer (FB & 40k) player, since 2nd edition and 1st boxed edition respectively. I chose to poke a little fun at the hyper-power in the flavor text, particularly the ridiculous love that has been shown for the Space Wolves, and the responses it generates on this forum.

I am a comic book fan, generally preferring the big names to the indies, but not exclusively. I chose to poke a little fun at the genre-accepted joke of "Batman can do anything!" and "Batman's got everything on that belt of his!"

The original post wasn't meant as a troll and it certainly wasn't meant to bash Anime/40k/Batman. It was meant to be a silly little editorial/stroll/chance to see what people wanna say in a silly context. The Care Bears reference and the brilliant pictures like those from Illiterate Scribe are exactly the intent of my post.

As for the "adding Anime to everything"...well, that's mostly an homage to the video games and comic characters who got huge powerups from their original games/incarnations to later versions (ala the Street Fighter/Capcom fighting games). The tags for Luke Skywalker may have been a bit extreme, but tell me you honestly couldn't picture an Anime version of Star Wars featuring a tiny little versions of Owen and Beru ripping into Luke as they gleefully ignore the fourth wall.

Again, it certainly wasn't my intent to insult or disparage, but to generate a little fun.

- Mordar

[LBO]

DID SOMEONE MENTION NECRON PIRATES

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/1208122137113.jpg

[Lord_Asmodeus]

DID SOMEONE MENTION NECRON PIRATES

Arrr! Avast ye Land Lubber! Were here to... steal the electrical impulses of your mind for our evil star gods! :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[LBO]

Also. Adding anime to things may make them good, but it is not always a sure thing.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/1206647321872.jpg

[Illiterate Scribe]

DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS.

Oh, and Wall-Hammer Faulty-Kai ... it's been ages since I saw that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't know about sun crushers, but I do bring kawaii tyranids.
Seriously, I have about 500 mb of this stuff.

Bah, I'm a 2nd Edition purist and therefore immune to Zoanathropes without legs and visable brains.

[Raiser Blade]

Both DC and Marvel universes can Al Capwn WH40K.

Immortality and altering reality ftw.

[Innis Cabal]

WH 40K has god like beings to, Don't forget them. Then again comicbooks absolutly throw logic out the window for sales

[Rutee]

WH 40K has god like beings to, Don't forget them. Then again comicbooks absolutly throw logic out the window for sales

IoM still has tech.

Good game sir.

[Innis Cabal]

It also has eneties that can wipe out star systems and whole galaxies for funnsies, Comic books dont dominate that market. And we dont even have a clue what the Star Child can do. Or the Chaos gods for that matter

[Rutee]

You apparently missed my intent.

You make the statement "Comic books utterly discard logic for awesome sales" as a pejorative, acting as though it weren't true of WH40k.

There is effectively no way for the IoM to maintain its tech, given the setup. Well, there's one way, but it's the Ork way, and WH40k humans /aren't/ all latent psykers, though the race is heading in that direction. Most of it can operate under scrutiny, but the IoM, which I will tentatively refer to as the poster children of WH40k (They appear to have the most manuals printed for them, and the most factions within the overarching banner, which usually means the most book space and best publicity) can not. The implication then, is that WH40k /also/ discards logic for the sake of Awesome sales.

And uh, who can wipe out a galaxy? No, who can wipe out a star system? Not "Kill all entities within either". "Make there not be a <Astronomical Unit here> any more."

[Innis Cabal]

The C'Tan can and have destroyed whole systems. It is alluded to that the Tyranids are not on their second galaxy, a number is never stated but they are a force that could, and has, taken out at least one galaxy and is worknig on their second or possibly third.

[Rutee]

As I recall, C'tan eat stars, not destroy all matter within the neighboring space; This is not the same thing on the impressive destructive potential scale. The Tyranids Om Nom Nom, not "Nuke"; I feel relatively confident in saying "Anyone whom opposes 40k on the Macro level is perfectly capable of whittling away a planet, at minimum". It makes the Tyranids a rather sizable force on the macro scale, but it is again not comparable to the ability to destroy a particular astronomical unit with one discrete attack.

Not that the ability to destroy a planet = the ability to beat the Tyranids; I was being literal. It isn't comparable.

[Innis Cabal]

i never once claimed they obliterated/erease a star system, i said wipe out. There is a difference. Destroying a star/sun is wiping out a star system. Devouring all matter and leaving the remains dryed shrivlied husks on a glactic scale -is- wiping out a galaxy. The warp can erease planets in the most extreme use of the word, in reality it draws the matter into itself and makes it play by its rules, but again thats wiping something out.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As I recall, C'tan eat stars, not destroy all matter within the neighboring space; This is not the same thing on the impressive destructive potential scale.

C'tan eat stars but can't destroy them. Saying a C'tan can destroy solar systems is like saying a leech can kill you and your house. C'tan are Star Vampires, not Star Galactus.

A C'tan can order his Necron fleet to destroy solar systems but on his own he isn't even as powerful as a battleship.

[Innis Cabal]

They have in fact destroyed stars, and the C'Tan that are present now are weaker versions of themselves after their long slumber. After draining away all of the energy of a star the system it held with its gravity will be destroyed as well, not to mention any sentient entity is that star system would have already been devoured

[Rutee]

I won't deny that a star system is reliant on the star's gravity, but you misrepresented their abilities given how they apparently don't destroy the entire section of space outright. And as for where you said they do?


It also has eneties that can wipe out star systems and whole galaxies for funnsies
No, as a matter of fact, killing everything in a given area is not the same as destroying the area.

[Innis Cabal]

Who says wipe out has to mean completly and utterly destroy everything? It does not mean just to erase. Here is a definition.

wipe out
a. to destroy completely; demolish: The entire city was wiped out.
b. Informal. to murder; kill: They wiped him out to keep him from testifying.
c. Slang. to beat decisively, as in sports.
d. Slang. (in sports) to be taken out of competition by a fall, accident, collision, etc.
e. Slang. to intoxicate or cause to become high, esp. on narcotic drugs.

Wiping out a star system is as easy as destroying the star, which its been noted that yes in fact they have and can do just that, or to destroy all living things in an area. Which both the C'Tan and the Tyranids can do, have done, will keep on doing. I've already admited to the fact that barring the Warp there is nothing that can -erase- matter from the galaxy, but then again i never claimed that the C'Tan or Tyranids erease'd whole galaxies off the map. Spliting hairs isnt going to make me any more wrong or you any more right.

[Rutee]

That's.. pretty much the definition of misrepresentation. Your diction had two (or more) possible readings; The one that is broadcasted from that diction is more impressive, or somehow different, then the accurate reading. You then proceed to act as though you had intended the more impressive, or different reading, not the accurate one. Then you're called on it, and say "Well yes, it means this in addition, and it's clearly what I meant.."

Had you not intended to broadcast this definition, you would have in fact, said "Well, no, they don't completely remove <astronomical unit>, they do X instead." the first time I called you on it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Who says wipe out has to mean completly and utterly destroy everything? It does not mean just to erase. Here is a definition.

wipe out
a. to destroy completely; demolish: The entire city was wiped out.
b. Informal. to murder; kill: They wiped him out to keep him from testifying.
c. Slang. to beat decisively, as in sports.
d. Slang. (in sports) to be taken out of competition by a fall, accident, collision, etc.
e. Slang. to intoxicate or cause to become high, esp. on narcotic drugs.

Wiping out a star system is as easy as destroying the star, which its been noted that yes in fact they have and can do just that, or to destroy all living things in an area. Which both the C'Tan and the Tyranids can do, have done, will keep on doing. I've already admited to the fact that barring the Warp there is nothing that can -erase- matter from the galaxy, but then again i never claimed that the C'Tan or Tyranids erease'd whole galaxies off the map. Spliting hairs isnt going to make me any more wrong or you any more right.

Yes, and entities in marvel can erase every being in the Warhammer 40K universe without any real effort. Phoenix in her current incarnation, for example.

[Innis Cabal]

Well now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

And comic books are a bad judge of power level. They dont follow physics, which seems to be one of the greatest arguments against WH40K. They dont even follow the idea that death is finite. They exist on a level that can simply be likened to a child in a game of "im better". As soon as a bullet hits them they become immune to bullets but that bullet pass's their immunity so they then become immune to just that bullet etc etc untill the original hero or villian is so far beyond what he set out to be originally the rest of the universe has to be just as insane and nonsenseical. There is no law of diminishing return for comic books, just more money induced steroid powered power jumps for all the good guys so they can beat the bad guys. In other words, nothing beats comic books because the hero always wins even if they die in the process, good always triumphs over the villians eventually, and that just isnt logical

As opposed to WH40K where there are no good guys, no heros, and everything is going to die, horribly, without hope of redemtion or pity. Which is far closer to the reality of war then a comic book, which is more often then not geared to children who cant even possibly see that because /gasp it might make their brains melt or something.

[Rutee]

Good beating evil isn't logical, but the GRIMDARK world of DARK N' GRIM where everybody dies horribly, war continues for countless millenia against pretty much everyone's best interests, and every faction keeps one-upping each other in a money induced steroid driven power jump to drive miniature and book sales is?

Friggin Omega Dog syndrome. You want to claim higher moral complexity from the setting where the only choices are in the manner you want your dog raped?

Also, I dont' think anyone minds that WH40k doesn't follow physics. Nobody does, just about. What I've seen irritation at is the mistaken belief that WH40k follows physics, when taken as some sort of "Well it's better then your thing because of it".

Kinda like you're doing now.

[Innis Cabal]

Cant make any real life allusions here, but a constant state of war against 9 or 10 foes that want nothing more then the other sides destruction is more almost a certainty. Yes, when you have 10 sides looking down the barrel of a space cannon at each other and enough force to use that cannon there is going to be war. And on the scale its set on, its going to go on for a long time, probably forever untill one side shifts the balance, almost like the Imp did before the Heresy. Ya its just to boost sales, but thats what we are dealing with here. To claim its illogical to operate just on that premise is almost as illogical as what your claiming. Thats how life works, real life is grim, gritty and dark, with little hope of change. Thems the breaks

Also claiming hypocrisy is pretty childish, thinking that your above it is just as hypocritical if not more so. Its a paper thin argument at best, one that just makes anything you said before you brought it up meaningless at worst

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Good beating evil isn't logical, but the GRIMDARK world of DARK N' GRIM where everybody dies horribly, war continues for countless millenia against pretty much everyone's best interests, and every faction keeps one-upping each other in a money induced steroid driven power jump to drive miniature and book sales is?

Friggin Omega Dog syndrome. You want to claim higher moral complexity from the setting where the only choices are in the manner you want your dog raped?

Also, I dont' think anyone minds that WH40k doesn't follow physics. Nobody does, just about. What I've seen irritation at is the mistaken belief that WH40k follows physics, when taken as some sort of "Well it's better then your thing because of it".

Kinda like you're doing now.

40k physics are, on the whole, a hell of alot more believable than the physics of many other physics breaking universes. I'm its not all believable or realistic, but its usually more realistic than many other settings, and at least tries to explain it most of the time.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Good beating evil isn't logical, but the GRIMDARK world of DARK N' GRIM where everybody dies horribly, war continues for countless millenia against pretty much everyone's best interests, and every faction keeps one-upping each other in a money induced steroid driven power jump to drive miniature and book sales is?

Friggin Omega Dog syndrome. You want to claim higher moral complexity from the setting where the only choices are in the manner you want your dog raped?

Also, I dont' think anyone minds that WH40k doesn't follow physics. Nobody does, just about. What I've seen irritation at is the mistaken belief that WH40k follows physics, when taken as some sort of "Well it's better then your thing because of it".

Kinda like you're doing now.

40k physics are, on the whole, a hell of alot more believable than the physics of many other physics breaking universes. I'm its not all believable or realistic, but its usually more realistic than many other settings, and at least tries to explain it most of the time.

[Rutee]

Oh so very gritty, that's why 100% of the populace is considerred a combatant by everyone.

Oh wait...

Real Life isn't grim n' gritty. War is, sure, but most of the population doesn't exist in a state of war or abject fear of war. Yes, there are places like that, but they're flatly not the majority of the planet (Or at least, not the planet's populace. But it's hard to involve most humans in anything if you don't involve China). And no, Real Life isn't as full of examples as you seem to believe; In real life, governments tend to surrender when it's not in their best interests to keep fighting. If they don't, they tend to collapse. Also, one word. WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!


Also claiming hypocrisy is pretty childish, thinking that your above it is just as hypocritical if not more so.
Oh no, I'm childish. There are worse things in this world, such as an affectation of superiority because I'm the 'dark' one, who 'gets the truth about the world'. Also, I haven't claimed to be above it. And, you haven't actually highlighted a hypocritical practice, also (Which is a shame, because I keep expecting you to try to turn my criticisms of WH40k as a logical construct against me after I expressed irritation of Omega Dog syndrome)


Its a paper thin argument at best, one that just makes anything you said before you brought it up meaningless at worst
It is not a paper thin argument. You are criticizing perceived childishness/moral simplicity in Marvel and the superhero genre (Two words: Civil War. Despite expressly being used as an excuse to have superheroes beat up superheroes, it's /still/ more ethically complex then WH40k, because both sides /actually have a point/), as well as lodging claims of illogic at it. You then flatly ignore these self same failings in WH40k, because "It's grim, just like war".


40k physics are, on the whole, a hell of alot more believable than the physics of many other physics breaking universes
Black Hole Cannons. You can not, under any circumstances, claim believability superiority if you use Black Hole Cannons. Lest you believe I'm targeting something I dislike, one mech I'm particularly fond of makes judicious use of a Black Hole Engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huckebein#Huckebein_Specifications).

[Innis Cabal]

Since the site has strict punishment about dragging real life examples in, all i can say is read some history books sometime and then come back and tell me real life isnt grim and dark. I'll wait.

[Rutee]

Oh, so /that's/ why you felt the need to drag real life into it in support of your point? Regardless, I do read history books. All the time, actually, for fun. Real life isn't gritty. War is.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And comic books are a bad judge of power level. They dont follow physics, which seems to be one of the greatest arguments against WH40K. They dont even follow the idea that death is finite. They exist on a level that can simply be likened to a child in a game of "im better". As soon as a bullet hits them they become immune to bullets but that bullet pass's their immunity so they then become immune to just that bullet etc etc untill the original hero or villian is so far beyond what he set out to be originally the rest of the universe has to be just as insane and nonsenseical. There is no law of diminishing return for comic books, just more money induced steroid powered power jumps for all the good guys so they can beat the bad guys. In other words, nothing beats comic books because the hero always wins even if they die in the process, good always triumphs over the villians eventually, and that just isnt logical

Now you're making rediculous sweeping generalisations.


Black Hole Cannons. You can not, under any circumstances, claim believability superiority if you use Black Hole Cannons.

I'm not up on recent 40k lore, but were do black hole cannons appear exactly?

Any setting with energy weapons and faster than light travel can't claim to have realistic physics.

[Rutee]

I believe the Eldar possess them on vehicles? Or at least, that was the claim. It's not anywhere I've seen (This doesn't say all that much; Enjoying the setting isn't the same thing as having that much of it to read), but it was being used by a poster in a vs. thread.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I believe the Eldar possess them on vehicles? Or at least, that was the claim. It's not anywhere I've seen (This doesn't say all that much; Enjoying the setting isn't the same thing as having that much of it to read), but it was being used by a poster in a vs. thread.

The only such weapon I can think are vortex missiles, which can generate miniature black hole, which lasts for a few seconds (essentially it just sucks up all the matter in an area, then disappears) but these are old Heresy era tech, developed by the Emperor himself, and they aren't exactly... common.

Edit: And they're IoM tech.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I believe the Eldar possess them on vehicles? Or at least, that was the claim. It's not anywhere I've seen (This doesn't say all that much; Enjoying the setting isn't the same thing as having that much of it to read), but it was being used by a poster in a vs. thread.

The only thing I can think of is the D. Canon, which isn't a Blackhole canon, it opens up holes in reality that stuff falls through, it's basically an offensive teleportation weapon. Other than that, the Eldar only use standard energy weapons and hails of monomolecular shurikan.

[Rutee]

The only such weapon I can think are vortex missiles, which can generate miniature black hole, which lasts for a few seconds (essentially it just sucks up all the matter in an area, then disappears) but these are old Heresy era tech, developed by the Emperor himself, and they aren't exactly... common.

Edit: And they're IoM tech.

A Black Hole Missile? Now that's just going too far. It's all well and good when you shoot it, but a /missile/?

:smallyuk:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

A Black Hole Missile? Now that's just going too far. It's all well and good when you shoot it, but a /missile/?

:smallyuk:

So what, you can make a missile that splits atoms to make massive explosions, but not one that creates a miniature star implosion?

[Closet_Skeleton]

No piece of Blackhole technology can be as stupid and nonsensical as the Yuuzahn Vong's Dovin Basal.

It doesn't just create minature singularities and use them to absorb energy weapon blasts, but it creates minature singularities using biotechnology.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

No piece of Blackhole technology can be as stupid and nonsensical as the Yuuzahn Vong's Dovin Basal.

It doesn't just create minature singularities and use them to absorb energy weapon blasts, but it creates minature singularities using biotechnology.

Yea, but I mean if you can make something like ATOM SPLITTING into a real life weapon, why is somehow, a genius 10'000 years in the future, (a genius who was, by the way, most important figures in human history just in disguise, Jesus for example) can't figure out how to make a missile which triggers a miniature black hole on contact?

[Rutee]

You're seriously defending these things, aren't you?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

You're seriously defending these things, aren't you?

And you're seriously looking down on me because I don't see how you think a missile which causes mini black holes is "over the top". I mean, its no more unbelievable than the Warp, or Daemons, or people who can bring the life back to inanimate corpses, destroy worlds, and crush massive city sized walking fortresses with their MIND.

[Bryn]

I'd just like to step in to offer a counter-example to the stereotype of the 40k fan obsessed with the high powered stuff and the hugely subjective 'vs.' thread; I fully accept and embrace that 40k is unrealistic and runs on the Rule of Cool (http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4711/drivemecloserwi3.jpg) (that's linking to 'Drive Me Closer') and not anywhere near real physics, and I'm not bothered or angry if another fictional universe is mightier in some respect. So... we're not all like that :smallbiggrin:

As for black holes... I was under the impression that 'vortex' weapons open up a temporary portal to the Warp. Since there is no such thing as a Warp in real life (thankfully!), it's impossible to say whether such things could or could not exist. Even if they couldn't, I wouldn't care. Fun is fun, and if it's too silly, there's the convenient wand of DisContinuity.

[Rutee]

....I was kidding. I even used a smilie. That was patently obvious. But hell, here's the short version anyway.

A Black Hole requires a lot of mass; Full stop, you can't get past this part, because a black hole is pretty much a region of really really high gravity, and high gravity relies on a lot of mass. Since they're not a black hole in the gun, we can infer that this mass is generated at some point outside the point of contact. The first strike against a black hole anything is that no matter how efficient your method of mass generation is, you could stop at a much lower point then a singularity and get a similarly effective military weapon; While it's it's more impressive to create a singularity, once you've succeeded in destroying everything in a given area, more damage is overkill, unless that bleeds over to a higher area. And then the second point is that you can probably find much better uses for it then generation of a black hole.

And frankly, the GEoM doesn't demonstrate genius of a much higher accord then Shuu Shirakawa; If I don't think Granzon's black hole tech is realistic (And I don't, and I don't care, because none of this is hard sci fi, and I don't even like hard sci fi), then why should I think the GEoM's is? And why should I care about whether the tech in 40k is realistic, since it's not Hard Sci Fi, and I don't like Hard Sci Fi?

For your edification, the reason I think less of you is that you're defending a gloriously over the top thing as realistic, not because you like that gloriously over the top thing.

And on that note, explaining things actually tends to damage WH40k tech's believability, from what I've seen. Sometimes, adding detail reduces believability, because it calls attention to an impossibility. A simple example I've seen echoed before:
Buffy's mother as a single working mother can not possibly afford the huge house Buffy lives in, in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. And we would never notice this in the setting, just as we don't notice that the apartments are a bit overly large for in Seinfeld or Friends (So I'm told anyway; I don't live in NYC). This is because it's never called into attention. When hte plot begins to make mention of it, however, we begin analyzing things. Similarly, if you simply say "The tech does this", you don't cause people to begin to analyze it. If you then go onto say "It does this because of principles X, Y, and Z" or whatnot, and you are then wrong, or unrealistic, you have just damaged suspension of disbelief.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Though it's a bit late to the party, on the subject of life being GRIMDARK or not:

Guys, honestly, not only it isn't true, We don't give a **** about it!

EVEN if the world was GRIMDARK, we'll just give the GRIMDARKness a giant FU and carry on, following this:


Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.


Now, resume the small talk.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

....I was kidding. I even used a smilie. That was patently obvious. But hell, here's the short version anyway.

You in fact, did not, and this it was not.


A Black Hole requires a lot of mass; Full stop, you can't get past this part, because a black hole is pretty much a region of really really high gravity, and high gravity relies on a lot of mass. Since they're not a black hole in the gun, we can infer that this mass is generated at some point outside the point of contact. The first strike against a black hole anything is that no matter how efficient your method of mass generation is, you could stop at a much lower point then a singularity and get a similarly effective military weapon; While it's it's more impressive to create a singularity, once you've succeeded in destroying everything in a given area, more damage is overkill, unless that bleeds over to a higher area. And then the second point is that you can probably find much better uses for it then generation of a black hole.

A black hole missile no doubt has uses that would justify making them, most things do.


And frankly, the GEoM doesn't demonstrate genius of a much higher accord then Shuu Shirakawa; If I don't think Granzon's black hole tech is realistic (And I don't, and I don't care, because none of this is hard sci fi, and I don't even like hard sci fi), then why should I think the GEoM's is? And why should I care about whether the tech in 40k is realistic, since it's not Hard Sci Fi, and I don't like Hard Sci Fi?

In your OPINION. Honestly, you don't have any proof that he wasn't smart (and no doing the occasional stupid thing in your 50'000 year life span doesn't make you stupid) however there is evidence to the contrary (the fact that he was most of the influential people in history guiding humanity the way he wanted, the fact that he pretty much singlehandedly created much of the tech which made the IoM a galactic superpower, and making the Space Marines, as well as the fact that before the Heresy he was close to figuring out the Webway, something the Eldar haven't been able to figure out since a LOOONG time before the Heresy, the list goes on)


For your edification, the reason I think less of you is that you're defending a gloriously over the top thing as realistic, not because you like that gloriously over the top thing.

And I now think less of YOU because you're petty. I'm defending it because I like it, and because I honestly think its not as unrealistic as some people think it is. Do I think its totally realistic? No, but some people would compare to anime levels of realism, and no matter how much I like anime, it pays about as much attention to realism as a dinosaur would a mosquito: Virtually none.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

....I was kidding. I even used a smilie. That was patently obvious. But hell, here's the short version anyway.

You in fact, did not, and this it was not.


A Black Hole requires a lot of mass; Full stop, you can't get past this part, because a black hole is pretty much a region of really really high gravity, and high gravity relies on a lot of mass. Since they're not a black hole in the gun, we can infer that this mass is generated at some point outside the point of contact. The first strike against a black hole anything is that no matter how efficient your method of mass generation is, you could stop at a much lower point then a singularity and get a similarly effective military weapon; While it's it's more impressive to create a singularity, once you've succeeded in destroying everything in a given area, more damage is overkill, unless that bleeds over to a higher area. And then the second point is that you can probably find much better uses for it then generation of a black hole.

A black hole missile no doubt has uses that would justify making them, most things do.


And frankly, the GEoM doesn't demonstrate genius of a much higher accord then Shuu Shirakawa; If I don't think Granzon's black hole tech is realistic (And I don't, and I don't care, because none of this is hard sci fi, and I don't even like hard sci fi), then why should I think the GEoM's is? And why should I care about whether the tech in 40k is realistic, since it's not Hard Sci Fi, and I don't like Hard Sci Fi?

In your OPINION. Honestly, you don't have any proof that he wasn't smart (and no doing the occasional stupid thing in your 50'000 year life span doesn't make you stupid) however there is evidence to the contrary (the fact that he was most of the influential people in history guiding humanity the way he wanted, the fact that he pretty much singlehandedly created much of the tech which made the IoM a galactic superpower, and making the Space Marines, as well as the fact that before the Heresy he was close to figuring out the Webway, something the Eldar haven't been able to figure out since a LOOONG time before the Heresy, the list goes on)


For your edification, the reason I think less of you is that you're defending a gloriously over the top thing as realistic, not because you like that gloriously over the top thing.

And I now think less of YOU because you're petty about stupid things that don't matter. I'm defending it because I like it, and because I honestly think its not as unrealistic as some people think it is. Do I think its totally realistic? No, but some people would compare to anime levels of realism, and no matter how much I like anime, it pays about as much attention to realism as a dinosaur would a mosquito: Virtually none.

[Rutee]

You in fact, did not, and this it was not.



A Black Hole Missile? Now that's just going too far. It's all well and good when you shoot it, but a /missile/?

V
:smallyuk:<--------------------------------
^

Arrows added just now. When one makes an easy-to-verify claim, it behooves you to double check that easy-to-verify claim, just in case you may have missed something.


A black hole missile no doubt has uses that would justify making them, most things do.

What would justify such a massive overkill, pray tell?


In your OPINION. Honestly, you don't have any proof that he wasn't smart (and no doing the occasional stupid thing in your 50'000 year life span doesn't make you stupid) however there is evidence to the contrary (the fact that he was most of the influential people in history guiding humanity the way he wanted, the fact that he pretty much singlehandedly created much of the tech which made the IoM a galactic superpower, and making the Space Marines, as well as the fact that before the Heresy he was close to figuring out the Webway, something the Eldar haven't been able to figure out since a LOOONG time before the Heresy, the list goes on)

I didn't say the GEoM is an idiot. I said I don't consider him to be much smarter then Shuu Shirakawa an utter genius whom also uses Black Hole Tech. I then went on to say that I don't consider the use of Black Holes in tech by either to be realistic. If things are unclear, I /like/ Shuu and his creations. I /like/ Black Holes used as weapons. I just accept that it's not realistic, and I'm cool with that. Hell, I like Mecha, and am well aware of the fact that about 95% of it isn't reasonable to use if the laws of physics apply.

Honestly, the disconnect between what you defend against and what was actually said seems to be rather.. vast.


And I now think less of YOU because you're petty about stupid things that don't matter. I'm defending it because I like it, and because I honestly think its not as unrealistic as some people think it is. Do I think its totally realistic? No, but some people would compare to anime levels of realism, and no matter how much I like anime, it pays about as much attention to realism as a dinosaur would a mosquito: Virtually none.
Off the top of my head, Noir is more realistic then 40k (though that's almost as much of an accomplishment as being taller then 4'0"). But hey, it's cool. Sweeping statements of an art style are always accurate, after all. Maybe I should swipe at all wargames based on Warhammer. That aside, I'm not seeing the petty too well. "This guy is taking his hobby as srs bsns to an insane degree." is the vector here, not "You disagree with me." It seems a valid reason to actively lose respect points to me, but eh.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Since gravity is the weakest force, any weapon that uses it will always be energy inefficient compared to the alternatives.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Arrows added just now. When one makes an easy-to-verify claim, it behooves you to double check that easy-to-verify claim, just in case you may have missed something.

I thought you were referring to the "Are you seriously defending this" post, the one directly prior to it.



What would justify such a massive overkill, pray tell

Gee, in a universe with giant daemons, aliens that make technology out of the stuff of pure energy, and giant walking cathedrals of doom? I wonder.



I didn't say the GEoM is an idiot. I said I don't consider him to be much smarter then Shuu Shirakawa an utter genius whom also uses Black Hole Tech. I then went on to say that I don't consider the use of Black Holes in tech by either to be realistic. If things are unclear, I /like/ Shuu and his creations. I /like/ Black Holes used as weapons. I just accept that it's not realistic, and I'm cool with that. Hell, I like Mecha, and am well aware of the fact that about 95% of it isn't reasonable to use if the laws of physics apply.

Obviously you and I are reffering to different Shuu's. I seemed to recall a Shuu who was, to the say the least, a dumbass.


Off the top of my head, Noir is more realistic then 40k (though that's almost as much of an accomplishment as being taller then 4'0"). But hey, it's cool. Sweeping statements of an art style are always accurate, after all. Maybe I should swipe at all wargames based on Warhammer. That aside, I'm not seeing the petty too well. "This guy is taking his hobby as srs bsns to an insane degree." is the vector here, not "You disagree with me." It seems a valid reason to actively lose respect points to me, but eh.

So long as you understand the intent of sweeping generalizations, and what I'm talking about, I don't see the problem. Thing is, most tabletop games ARE dark and grimy worlds of war, so thats not exactly a good thing to pick. Honestly, you know what I'm talking about, and you being anal about it isn't exactly helping. As for the pettiness, you're looking down on me for a having a difference of opinion, and standing by it, and thats all. I don't take is as serious business, I just defend the things I believe. You looking down on me because yes, we disagree and I stand by my side IS petty, and if you can't see that, you're blind.

[Bryn]

I've already posted once, but we probably need some MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra) here. Whether or not the Emperor was smart, or whether black hole missiles are viable, it's just a game. Maybe I'm slow, and this Business isn't as Serious as it seems, but I thought it would bear mentioning.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I've already posted once, but we probably need some MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra) here. Whether or not the Emperor was smart, or whether black hole missiles are viable, it's just a game. Maybe I'm slow, and this Business isn't as Serious as it seems, but I thought it would bear mentioning.

I hear you...

[Rutee]

Gee, in a universe with giant daemons, aliens that make technology out of the stuff of pure energy, and giant walking cathedrals of doom? I wonder.
...Your point? Wasted energy is wasted energy. Is there even reason to believe that any of that can handle a star's gravity? A Gas giant's?




Obviously you and I are reffering to different Shuu's. I seemed to recall a Shuu who was, to the say the least, a dumbass.
I included a last name, and one of the things that made him famous. My tone wasn't indicative of disrespect to either.


So long as you understand the intent of sweeping generalizations
To be wrong?


Thing is, most tabletop games ARE dark and grimy worlds of war, so thats not exactly a good thing to pick.
Heroclix. See above.


As for the pettiness, you're looking down on me for a having a difference of opinion, and standing by it, and thats all.
There is one person on this planet whom stands a chance of understanding me better then I do. How much are you willing to bet that it's you? You lost respect for going far too srs bsns on your hobby in defending it. Nothing more. You claim that you're not going srs bsns; How is defending the realism of a patently (And awesomely) absurd setting not taking things too seriously?

As to 'petty'.

1. of little or no importance or consequence: petty grievances.
2. of lesser or secondary importance, merit, etc.; minor: petty considerations.
3. having or showing narrow ideas, interests, etc.: petty minds.
4. mean or ungenerous in small or trifling things: a petty person.
5. showing or caused by meanness of spirit: a petty revenge.
6. of secondary rank, esp. in relation to others of the same class or kind: petty states; a petty tyrant.

The problem being that what you're doing is indicative of a flatly serious problem among nerd-dom, on par with the stereotypical nerd's bad hygeine; The stereotypical nerd's ability to blow perceived slights even further out of proportion then 'normal people' do. If you'd like to argue that this problem isn't serious, that's one thing, but I don't see how it could be taken as a given.


I've already posted once, but we probably need some MST3K Mantra here. Whether or not the Emperor was smart, or whether black hole missiles are viable, it's just a game. Maybe I'm slow, and this Business isn't as Serious as it seems, but I thought it would bear mentioning.
Hehe. The disconnect here with me is that it isn't the game I'm taking issue with at all, but the people. People actually do have the capability to be srs bsns. I don't need the MST3K mantra in regards to games.. I think..

[Lord_Asmodeus]

...Your point? Wasted energy is wasted energy. Is there even reason to believe that any of that can handle a star's gravity? A Gas giant's?

My point is that there's no doubt a practical purpose for it that would justify the waste of energy, like using to utterly destroy the physical body of a unholy powerful Daemon.





I included a last name, and one of the things that made him famous. My tone wasn't indicative of disrespect to either.

1. I'm sorry all I remembered was the first name, so the last name didn't help me differentiate
2. Didn't see that.
3. I can't READ tone.



To be wrong?

No, to refer to a large base with a commonly true fact that may or may not prove exclusively true.



Heroclix. See above.

I said MOST not ALL.


There is one person on this planet whom stands a chance of understanding me better then I do. How much are you willing to bet that it's you? You lost respect for going far too srs bsns on your hobby in defending it. Nothing more. You claim that you're not going srs bsns; How is defending the realism of a patently (And awesomely) absurd setting not taking things too seriously?

And herein lies the crux of the problem. You're treating your opinion as more true than mine. I think 40k is somewhat realistic (and its more than just my hobby, I don't just play the game. I read the books and I write short stories, its something I LIKE) furthermore I don't know wtf srs bsns IS (besides the obvious "serious business" I don't understand the intent of shortening it) You think its a patently absurd setting and I don't, and somehow this makes me less respectable. I realize its not the most realistic of settings, but I don't think of it as as silly as you do.


As to 'petty'.

1. of little or no importance or consequence: petty grievances.
2. of lesser or secondary importance, merit, etc.; minor: petty considerations.
3. having or showing narrow ideas, interests, etc.: petty minds.
4. mean or ungenerous in small or trifling things: a petty person.
5. showing or caused by meanness of spirit: a petty revenge.
6. of secondary rank, esp. in relation to others of the same class or kind: petty states; a petty tyrant.

Emphasis bolded. You are making too much of me defending my opinion of a setting, losing respect in me because I feel differently than you about it. PETTY.

[Cuddly]

A lot of the world is pretty grim and dark; or at least, not nearly as nice as being able to have meaningless internet discussions all day.

Can't say I'm surprised a bunch of Western teenagers don't get it, though.

[Azerian Kelimon]

A lot of the world is pretty grim and dark; or at least, not nearly as nice as being able to have meaningless internet discussions all day.

Can't say I'm surprised a bunch of Western teenagers don't get it, though.

First off, you can stuff that snobbyness and condescending tone.

Now, we ALL know the world's very close to a crapsack, no one denies it, but to say it is GRIMDARK like Innis said makes even Emos look cheery and perky by the comparison. The world is beautiful and has good things, even if it is quite harsh.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Hehe. The disconnect here with me is that it isn't the game I'm taking issue with at all, but the people.

This doesn't seem like the helpful-est attitude, y'know.


The problem being that what you're doing is indicative of a flatly serious problem among nerd-dom, on par with the stereotypical nerd's bad hygeine; The stereotypical nerd's ability to blow perceived slights even further out of proportion then 'normal people' do. If you'd like to argue that this problem isn't serious, that's one thing, but I don't see how it could be taken as a given.

This neither. 'Diagnosing' someone arguing against you as having a 'serious problem' in themselves is hardly going to endear them to anything you have to say.

[Innis Cabal]

I never said it didnt have bright points, but they are only bright because everything else isnt. I just said reality is dark, grim, and short. To clarify, its grim dark and short for most people, and those that dont fall into that catagory are lucky, and know it.

[Cuddly]

More than a fifth of people on earth live below the poverty line. This isn't a nice poverty line where you get food stamps and a TV, no, this is the sort of poverty where you literally **** yourself to death before your fifth birthday.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I never said it didnt have bright points, but they are only bright because everything else isnt. I just said reality is dark, grim, and short. To clarify, its grim dark and short for most people, and those that dont fall into that catagory are lucky, and know it.

Yeah, sure. Whatever you say, tiger. It's not like most people have loved ones that make even the coldest nights warmer, or achievements that make them hope things are gonna change. No, Sirrah! :smallamused:

Grim and dark is in minority even when compared to the number of people who live in a dreamland. Harsh, maybe, but not Grim and dark.

[Rutee]

My point is that there's no doubt a practical purpose for it that would justify the waste of energy, like using to utterly destroy the physical body of a unholy powerful Daemon.
If you can do it with a sword, you probably don't need anything above a gas giant.



1. I'm sorry all I remembered was the first name, so the last name didn't help me differentiate
2. Didn't see that.
3. I can't READ tone.
1. More relevant in conjunction with 3, but perhaps check Wikipedia when in doubt.
2. If you're missing relevant lines, you may wish to slow down, or reread things. There's no shame in it. I have to proofread posts, or they turn out awful.
3. It's never too late to start learning.


No, to refer to a large base with a commonly true fact that may or may not prove exclusively true.
And then use an only tentatively accurate, at best, point to support an argument. Thus, be wrong.


I said MOST not ALL.
Mageknight. DnD Minis. I sincerely doubt that most games are anywhere near the GRIMDARK of WH40k, even if they're as gritty as real war (Which I also doubt is terribly common).



And herein lies the crux of the problem. You're treating your opinion as more true than mine.
If you'd like to argue that WH40k isn't absurd, you're in trouble, since the published material seems to be well aware of how over the top it is. It feels like watching a mark in the heyday of Kayfabe, though I only know wrestling second or third hand at best...



and its more than just my hobby
I'm not sure how to take that. The way you seem to mean it is more benign then the impact those words have on me though.



I don't know wtf srs bsns IS (besides the obvious "serious business" I don't understand the intent of shortening it)[/quote]
Shortening it is for snark.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness





Emphasis bolded. You are making too much of me defending my opinion of a setting, losing respect in me because I feel differently than you about it. PETTY.
I repeat: If taking things ludicrously seriously is a 'small problem' to you, then that's one thing, but it certainly isn't to me. To go back to my Mark analogy, you're telling me you wouldn't lose an iota of respect for someone who really thought wrestling was real? Even after Vince McMahon came out and said "It's not real."?


More than a fifth of people on earth live below the poverty line. This isn't a nice poverty line where you get food stamps and a TV, no, this is the sort of poverty where you literally **** yourself to death before your fifth birthday.
When did "A fifth" = "100%", again? Remember the comparison made. "Real life is as grim and gritty as the setting where almost every human being is born into and dies in filth.


This neither. 'Diagnosing' someone arguing against you as having a 'serious problem' in themselves is hardly going to endear them to anything you have to say.
Ah, you think I am attempting to change my opponent's mind. A noble goal, but not one I hold too much hope of.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ah, you think I am attempting to change my opponent's mind. A noble goal, but not one I hold too much hope of.

So your presence here is for the lulz? Wow, I admire your fortitude.

[Rutee]

So your presence here is for the lulz? Wow, I admire your fortitude.

Don't. I'm pretty sure it's just masochism. Or is that what "for the lulz" means? I usually understood that to mean joy in trolling or somethin...

[Illiterate Scribe]

Don't. I'm pretty sure it's just masochism. Or is that what "for the lulz" means? I usually understood that to mean joy in trolling or somethin...

'For the lulz' = for the sheer, reckless, joyful abandon of riding alone, head-on into a sea of Hal Turner groupies, flaming sword in hand. Or so I like to think ... :smallfrown:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

If you can do it with a sword, you probably don't need anything above a gas giant.

Look when you're dealing with critters who alter reality with their mere presence, it never hurts to be sure.


And then use an only tentatively accurate, at best, point to support an argument. Thus, be wrong.

No, to convey a point which another should understand and therefore be relevant to the conversation without referencing specific sub-genres.



Mageknight. DnD Minis. I sincerely doubt that most games are anywhere near the GRIMDARK of WH40k, even if they're as gritty as real war (Which I also doubt is terribly common).

Two more examples out of countless numbers. And I didn't say they were just as bad, I said similar, as in somewhat but not totally alike.


If you'd like to argue that WH40k isn't absurd, you're in trouble, since the published material seems to be well aware of how over the top it is. It feels like watching a mark in the heyday of Kayfabe, though I only know wrestling second or third hand at best...

Again, this is only your opinion. I don't see the published material as being that over the top, I see it as being right on the money for the setting it takes place in.


I'm not sure how to take that. The way you seem to mean it is more benign then the impact those words have on me though.

I assume you mean something like "you obviously don't think of saying that as being as serious as I do" which is probably right.


Shortening it is for snark.

Ah yes, what better way to get me to be understanding than to be snarky.



I repeat: If taking things ludicrously seriously is a 'small problem' to you, then that's one thing, but it certainly isn't to me. To go back to my Mark analogy, you're telling me you wouldn't lose an iota of respect for someone who really thought wrestling was real? Even after Vince McMahon came out and said "It's not real."?

I don't take it ludicrously seriously, you just seem to think my opinion is wrong, when its just an opinion. To use your own analogy, it would be like someone saying "you know, I know proffesional wrestling isn't real, but it looks sort of real, and I like it for that" and then someone else going on and on about how its not real, and how stupid they are for thinking its real, and how wrong their opinion is, when its just an opinion, and they already said they knew it wasn't real. I know 40k isn't the most realistic setting ever, I just think its more realistic and more serious than you give it credit for. And thats all it is, my opinion.


'For the lulz' = for the sheer, reckless, joyful abandon of riding alone, head-on into a sea of Hal Turner groupies, flaming sword in hand. Or so I like to think ... :smallfrown:

Eh, its pretty much interchangeable with "For ****z and gigglez" at least IMO.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ah yes, what better way to get me to be understanding than to be snarky.

We can say it with image macros if you'd rather :smallbiggrin:.


Eh, its pretty much interchangeable with "For ****z and gigglez" at least IMO.

I dunno - has a certain fatalism to it. If Leonidas I had had a sense of humour (Herodotus is strangely silent on the matter), then the Battle of Thermoopylae would have been for the lulz.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, Rutee nailed it. Entering a forum and staying is more or less an expression of the deeply seated masochism every forumer and forumite has.

But almost no one gets his or her rocks off from posting, let's clarify that. :smalltongue:

[Illiterate Scribe]

You have raised a horrible image in my mind, AK.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You have raised a horrible image in my mind, AK.

Feat: \b\ Training
You are adept at provoking horror and ph34r in the hearts of other posters when you don't want to.
Requirements: Can only be taken at 1st level, Wis 14+, Cha 14+, must be stealthily insane.
Benefit: Once per day, you make a horrific image erupt into a poster's mind. You cannot control this ability and must roll 1dX (X representing the number of active posters) to see who is affected. You are immune to this ability.
Normal: You must roll 1dAleph to craft horrific images.

Took it and I still love it.

[Dode]

Feat: \b\ Training
You are adept at provoking horror and ph34r in the hearts of other posters when you don't want to.
Requirements: Can only be taken at 1st level, Wis 14+, Cha 14+, must be stealthily insane.
Benefit: Once per day, you make a horrific image erupt into a poster's mind. You cannot control this ability and must roll 1dX (X representing the number of active posters) to see who is affected. You are immune to this ability.
Normal: You must roll 1dAleph to craft horrific images.

Took it and I still love it.

http://i31.tinypic.com/flei2x.jpg

will my internets ever be safe from this force of fear?

[Rutee]

Look when you're dealing with critters who alter reality with their mere presence, it never hurts to be sure.
Well, yes, it does. Especially if your ordinance involves black holes, and you're fighting an infantry-scale creature, seeing as a black hole (Or for that matter, gas giant) is going to sacrifice absolutely every unit in the surrounding <Scientifically accurate astronomical scale>" Which begs the question "Why bother deploying troops to these things ever?"



No, to convey a point which another should understand and therefore be relevant to the conversation without referencing specific sub-genres.
Except it's only relevant to some given subgenres. It'd be as innacurate as me saying "All video games are fighting games"


Two more examples out of countless numbers. And I didn't say they were just as bad, I said similar, as in somewhat but not totally alike.
Similar would require Grim and Dark in the first place, which gritty doesn't require.


Again, this is only your opinion. I don't see the published material as being that over the top, I see it as being right on the money for the setting it takes place in.
Of course, you also claim you can't read tone, and you're only enforcing that statement.


Ah yes, what better way to get me to be understanding than to be snarky.
Of course, you understood that it means Serious Business anyway, so if you were having trouble understanding, that problem was on your end.


I don't take it ludicrously seriously, you just seem to think my opinion is wrong, when its just an opinion.
Opinions can be wrong. Particularly an opinion taken on a fact. An example:
"It is my opinion that the Sun revolves around the Earth." Well, no. We have in fact confirmed this to not be the case.


To use your own analogy, it would be like someone saying "you know, I know proffesional wrestling isn't real, but it looks sort of real, and I like it for that"
Except your arguments don't bely that attitude. In this case, the terminator line is not quite "Is WH40k is realistic", but "Is WH40k meant to be taken as a serious setting, or subtle parody?". Your arguments on the former make it pretty clear that you take it as a serious setting. You don't have to take the physics seriously to think a setting's serious, but you must take the setting seriously to take the physics seriously..



Feat: \b\ Training
You are adept at provoking horror and ph34r in the hearts of other posters when you don't want to.
Requirements: Can only be taken at 1st level, Wis 14+, Cha 14+, must be stealthily insane.
Benefit: Once per day, you make a horrific image erupt into a poster's mind. You cannot control this ability and must roll 1dX (X representing the number of active posters) to see who is affected. You are immune to this ability.
Interestingly, the internet is only secondarily related to my ability to reject horrific images.

[Azerian Kelimon]

http://i31.tinypic.com/flei2x.jpg

will my internets ever be safe from this force of fear?

Nope. The only trick to avoid it is to take IT and munchkin it. Which I did, because I don't like being hoist by my own petard.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well, yes, it does. Especially if your ordinance involves black holes, and you're fighting an infantry-scale creature, seeing as a black hole (Or for that matter, gas giant) is going to sacrifice absolutely every unit in the surrounding <Scientifically accurate astronomical scale>" Which begs the question "Why bother deploying troops to these things ever?"



Except it's only relevant to some given subgenres. It'd be as innacurate as me saying "All video games are fighting games"


Similar would require Grim and Dark in the first place, which gritty doesn't require.


Of course, you also claim you can't read tone, and you're only enforcing that statement.


Of course, you understood that it means Serious Business anyway, so if you were having trouble understanding, that problem was on your end.


Opinions can be wrong. Particularly an opinion taken on a fact. An example:
"It is my opinion that the Sun revolves around the Earth." Well, no. We have in fact confirmed this to not be the case.


Except your arguments don't bely that attitude. In this case, the terminator line is not quite "Is WH40k is realistic", but "Is WH40k meant to be taken as a serious setting, or subtle parody?". Your arguments on the former make it pretty clear that you take it as a serious setting. You don't have to take the physics seriously to think a setting's serious, but you must take the setting seriously to take the physics seriously..


Interestingly, the internet is only secondarily related to my ability to reject horrific images.

I tire of these games. The point is, my opinion and yours on the seriousness of 40k differ, and despite how much you may wish it weren't so, this isn't an opinion that can be proved wrong by way of evidence and proof to the contrary, this is a difference of opinion of the kind wherein two people see the same thing differently in an arbitrary manner, where neither is wrong. The problem here is that you don't see it like this, you think that 40k is over the top, and that somehow your opinion is worth more than mine, which would facilitate the belief that you are superior to me in a fundamental way which allows your opinion to somehow be more right, when its not on something that can be arbitrarily proved right or wrong, and this, how do you say, "angers up my blood".

[Illiterate Scribe]

No, AK, I'm old and crusty enough to remember the mighty Soviet Russia and /z/. When I want to, I can withstand nasty stuff. It just feels somehow like soiling the nest to release it here.

Also:Dode: get ye back with your NZFG!

[Rutee]

I tire of these games. The point is, my opinion and yours on the seriousness of 40k differ, and despite how much you may wish it weren't so, this isn't an opinion that can be proved wrong by way of evidence and proof to the contrary
Er, yes, actually it can be. It /won't/ be, because neither of us has a direct statement from the people involved, but there is a fact here that can be found out. There's also the part where you've already admitted an incapacity in the one field you would need to actually settle this.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Er, yes, actually it can be. It /won't/ be, because neither of us has a direct statement from the people involved, but there is a fact here that can be found out. There's also the part where you've already admitted an incapacity in the one field you would need to actually settle this.

No, it CAN'T. There is no arbitrary proof over whether or not 40k is over the top or if it can be taken seriously, they're both OPINIONS, there is no absolute truth, as its a matter of personal preference. Its sad that you think somehow you can make your view on how a piece of fiction to is to be taken is somehow more relevant than someone else's.

[Rutee]

"Is WH40k meant to be taken as a serious setting, or subtle parody?"

Meant to be. Authors' Intent. Yes, Authors' Intent is something that can in fact be verified. Intent is best displayed in tone, or in outright word of God. And guess what: The latter doesn't exist, to my knowledge. You can't read the former. That is why you fail. I am in fact referring to an absolute fact, no matter how much you try to defend your opinion as sacrosanct on grounds of being an opinion, it is not. You can take it seriously or not, but it won't change the Authors' intent.

[Shadrin]

It's perfectly possible to take something seriously whether the author intends it or not. How each individual views a particular work is their opinion, and entirely subjective. There is no right or wrong here, even if they view the work completely opposite of the author. It is a subjective opinion.

[Rutee]

It's perfectly possible to take something seriously whether the author intends it or not. How each individual views a particular work is their opinion, and entirely subjective. There is no right or wrong here, even if they view the work completely opposite of the author. It is a subjective opinion.

I didn't argue that one could not take WH40k seriously. I would be rather sorely mistaken, given the srs bsns some people take of defending it. Again: I argued the intention of the setting. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I didn't argue that one could not take WH40k seriously. I would be rather sorely mistaken, given the srs bsns some people take of defending it. Again: I argued the intention of the setting. Nothing more, nothing less.

Authors are not the setting. Someone could write a book about WWII and not intend it to be serious, does that mean WWII is something not to be taken seriously?

[Rutee]

Authors are not the setting. Someone could write a book about WWII and not intend it to be serious, does that mean WWII is something not to be taken seriously?

....
Authors /are/ the setting. Fictional Settings don't exist as seperate constructs. They exist, change, and/or grow only with intervention from the creator*. If you write an unserious book about WWII, you would have to change WWII so much that it isn't WWII any more. Will people take it seriously anyway, because they can't lighten up? Probably. Won't change that the setting /isn't/ serious. If WH40k is meant as parody, then it /is/, because it does a very good job at subtle self-mocking. You can choose to not interpret it as such, but I could very well call Hello Kitty DARK N' GRIM. It wouldn't make me right, even if I said "It's my opinion."

*In today's corporate world, this isn't strictly true, since people who didn't create the setting can advance canon; However, don't take poetic speech completely literally. The point holds. These settings only exist and advance due to intervention of real people.

[Verruckt]

Okay, leaving anon aside, like this:

The Care Bears > Silver age Supes > Deities (like Shiva and GOD) > Deities (like Tzeentch and Shubula Nigurath) > D&Deities (like Raistlin) > Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan > White Wolf is arbitrary and stupid > The Culture > I hate the star wars Extended Universe > Warhammer 40k is awesome > Paralax > Mecha Anime > Shonen Anime >

that's all I can think of right now, i'm sure i've made some errors, help expand the list!

[Shadrin]

....
Authors /are/ the setting. Fictional Settings don't exist as seperate constructs. They exist, change, and/or grow only with intervention from the creator. If you write an unserious book about WWII, you would have to change WWII so much that it isn't WWII any more. Will people take it seriously anyway, because they can't lighten up? Probably. Won't change that the setting /isn't/ serious. If WH40k is meant as parody, then it /is/, because it does a very good job at subtle self-mocking. You can choose to not interpret it as such, but I could very well call Hello Kitty DARK N' GRIM. It wouldn't make me right, even if I said "It's my opinion."

No, authors are not the setting. Each person has different interpretations based on their experiences. Some people may notice or place more weight on certain things than others. Some people may perceive certain things as positive while others negative. No matter how the author may insist, everyone views his/her work differently.

Seriousness is an objective quality. Dark is not a subjective quality. Grim is not a subjective quality. These things are relative, and not just on a linear scale. While to some people, a crystal skull is not in any way freaky, I mean, its just crystal, to other people, it is, because its a skull.

Clowns. Some people find them absolutely terrifying, yet most people just see them as weirdos in face paint, big shoes and a red nose. Does this make them wrong? No. They really do find clowns scary. Lord_Asmodeus really does think WH40k is 'serious'. You really do think WH40k is not serious. Neither of these positions is wrong, they're just different subjective opinions.

[Rutee]

If this 'it's all relative and nobody can be right or wrong' crap is accurate, then what stops me from claiming Hello Kitty is a GRIMDARK slice of life dark humor parody again?

Sorry, some things aren't meaningfully in the eye of the beholder.

And, no, sorry, authors are the setting. They control all the goings-on.

[Shadrin]

If this 'it's all relative and nobody can be right or wrong' crap is accurate, then what stops me from claiming Hello Kitty is a GRIMDARK slice of life dark humor parody again?

Sorry, some things aren't meaningfully in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing? I wouldn't believe you however, in that I wouldn't believe you actually felt that way. If you did actually feel that way, then Hello Kitty really is a GRIMDARK slice of life dark humor parody to you.

[D_Lord]

There are points everywhere but if we have to go into the most powerful fight, may I point to Elementor Series. It was made in a way to blow everything else out of the water. The power levels in there, are to the point that their blowing up Dimensions like they where popers. That Chutrla was used like a little kid's Happy Meal Toy. You know the kind for three and under. That place was so over the top but about every main chacter in it was so it seemed more even.

[Rutee]

I didn't say I took it that way. I said it was Grimdark, etc etc.

But no, I shouldn't keep bothering. Relativists aren't worth the effort, because they don't say jack.

[Shadrin]

Ah, a niggling little word that causes all sorts of misunderstandings and meaningless fights.

I would then ask you to append that with something like "I feel that...". Normally it can be dropped, as people usually have somewhat similar definitions of the terms.

The problem is, grim and dark are words with relative meanings.

Maybe you might be part of some isolated island tribe where cats are powerful symbols of despair and evil. If so, then Hello Kitty might certainly seem Grimdark to you.

Also, I ask you to keep the personal insults to a minimum.

[GoC]

No, it CAN'T. There is no arbitrary proof over whether or not 40k is over the top or if it can be taken seriously, they're both OPINIONS, there is no absolute truth, as its a matter of personal preference. Its sad that you think somehow you can make your view on how a piece of fiction to is to be taken is somehow more relevant than someone else's.

In which case would you care to address the problems with acid spit going through walls (and why is it there in the first place?), the two problems with "monomolecular" swords, hiveworlds and the laws of thermodynamics, the inconsistency regarding the number of crew members on a battleship, the massive inconsistency between the enhancements Space Marines have and what they are actually capable of, why the Imperium builds titans and why Space Marines pack chainswords instead of more ammo?

That's all I can think of right now. I'll get back to you with more.

And be careful, people may begin to think you're one of them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb).

Shadrin: Wow! Civility in a vs. thread?:smallconfused:
This requires further examination...
*gets out dissecting tools*

[Lord_Asmodeus]

In which case would you care to address the problems with acid spit going through walls (and why is it there in the first place?), the two problems with "monomolecular" swords, hiveworlds and the laws of thermodynamics, the inconsistency regarding the number of crew members on a battleship, the massive inconsistency between the enhancements Space Marines have and what they are actually capable of, why the Imperium builds titans and why Space Marines pack chainswords instead of more ammo?

1. Whos acid spit?
2. I'm not a physicist, but you already know my opinion, they're made of superior technology thats available to the IoM 40'000 years in the future that isn't available now.
3. Whats wrong with Hiveworlds? They're polluted worlds with massive cities which are built way up and way into the Earth, as well as being cramped with billions of people each.
4. Again, not a physicist or anything, and I don't know what you're alluding to.
5. And what inconsistency is THIS?
6. I don't see this. Besides all their implants, they're made much stronger, and given bigass suits of armor which only improve upon this.
7. For a few reasons, because they're holy to the Ad Mech and since they control the tech they get their way, because they're massive walking fortresses, and as symbols of both the Omnissiah and the Imperiums might.
8. Because given the number of enemies SM have to fight which like to get stuck in close and bloody, its far more practical than just relying on their combat knives.



That's all I can think of right now. I'll get back to you with more.

So me not thinking its as rediculously over the top as some people means I have to answer all YOUR questions about it? Nice cop out.



And be careful, people may begin to think you're one of them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb).

And some people can take their contrived senses of superiority due to a difference of opinion and shove it.

And I honestly don't see which of those I'm supposed to be.

[GoC]

1. Whos acid spit?
2. I'm not a physicist, but you already know my opinion, they're made of superior technology thats available to the IoM 40'000 years in the future that isn't available now.
3. Whats wrong with Hiveworlds? They're polluted worlds with massive cities which are built way up and way into the Earth, as well as being cramped with billions of people each.
4. Again, not a physicist or anything, and I don't know what you're alluding to.
5. And what inconsistency is THIS?
6. I don't see this. Besides all their implants, they're made much stronger, and given bigass suits of armor which only improve upon this.
7. For a few reasons, because they're holy to the Ad Mech and since they control the tech they get their way, because they're massive walking fortresses, and as symbols of both the Omnissiah and the Imperiums might.
8. Because given the number of enemies SM have to fight which like to get stuck in close and bloody, its far more practical than just relying on their combat knives.
1. The Tyranid's acid spit.
2. Technology can't break the rules of physics. And that still leaves the problem of the blades blunting.
3&4. Someone suggested that hive worlds violate the laws of thermodynamics. Before your time in a Warhammer vs. Starcraft thread IIRC.
5. This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Navy_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#Battleship)
6. They react at speeds they shouldn't be able to and run (and accelerate*) faster than they should be able to. The power armor can't help your speed unless it can literally read your mind or if it has wheels. Without armor they are far stronger than they should be given that they merely have greater muscle mass.
* Thanks to gravity there is a built in limit to how fast you can start moving from a standing position.
7. Ah, that makes sense. Propaganda and religion can be powerful forces.
8. And a powerful pistol wouldn't work why? It would kill things far faster, won't get jammed or stuck so easily and requires far less maintenance.


So me not thinking its as rediculously over the top as some people means I have to answer all YOUR questions about it? Nice cop out.
:smallbiggrin:


And some people can take their contrived senses of superiority due to a difference of opinion and shove it.

And I honestly don't see which of those I'm supposed to be.
Apparently the one at the bottom of the list. Don't ask.:smallannoyed:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

1. The Tyranid's acid spit.
2. Technology can't break the rules of physics. And that still leaves the problem of the blades blunting.
3&4. Someone suggested that hive worlds violate the laws of thermodynamics. Before your time in a Warhammer vs. Starcraft thread IIRC.
5. This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Navy_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#Battleship)
6. They react at speeds they shouldn't be able to and run (and accelerate*) faster than they should be able to. The power armor can't help your speed unless it can literally read your mind or if it has wheels. Without armor they are far stronger than they should be given that they merely have greater muscle mass.
* Thanks to gravity there is a built in limit to how fast you can start moving from a standing position.
7. Ah, that makes sense. Propaganda and religion can be powerful forces.
8. And a powerful pistol wouldn't work why? It would kill things far faster, won't get jammed or stuck so easily and requires far less maintenance.

1. They're extremely advanced bio-tech using aliens from another galaxy. They spit acid. Whats inconsistent about bio-tech using aliens spitting powerfully corrosive acid (besides the obvious "it would burn them" thing, aren't some things better at dealing with high levels of pH than others?
2. It can if the physics we use aren't totally right. And beside that, SCI-FI can disobey some physics and not be ridiculously over the top, it just has to be sci-FI.
3&4. Well that doesn't make... any sense to me. Its a bigass city, how does that violate the laws of thermodynamics?
5. Probably due to the fact that A. ships of a certain size and up probably count as being battleships, without any uniform size and B. Ever heard of skeleton crews?
6. You have any proof that they shouldn't be able to react or move at those speeds?
7. Indeed.
8. But it can't stop a massive ork choppa from cleaving your skull in two, or bisect and disembowel said ork, can it?

[Bryn]

As an amused bystander (who firmly believes that 40k isn't in any way realistic and prefers it that way), I'd like to add that that Marines also spit acid (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/). Technically, they "spit a blinding contact poison. The poison is also corrosive" as opposed to spitting acid.

What effect this has on the currently occuring flame war debate, I don't know, but the spitting of acid is generally related to Marines rather than Tyranids.

[Shadrin]

Shadrin: Wow! Civility in a vs. thread?:smallconfused:
This requires further examination...
*gets out dissecting tools*

Just because it's uncommon doesn't mean we can't strive for it. :P

[GoC]

1. They're extremely advanced bio-tech using aliens from another galaxy. They spit acid. Whats inconsistent about bio-tech using aliens spitting powerfully corrosive acid (besides the obvious "it would burn them" thing, aren't some things better at dealing with high levels of pH than others?
2. It can if the physics we use aren't totally right. And beside that, SCI-FI can disobey some physics and not be ridiculously over the top, it just has to be sci-FI.
3&4. Well that doesn't make... any sense to me. Its a bigass city, how does that violate the laws of thermodynamics?
5. Probably due to the fact that A. ships of a certain size and up probably count as being battleships, without any uniform size and B. Ever heard of skeleton crews?
6. You have any proof that they shouldn't be able to react or move at those speeds?
7. Indeed.
8. But it can't stop a massive ork choppa from cleaving your skull in two, or bisect and disembowel said ork, can it?
1. The problem is that acid is a very poor weapon, easily negated by a thin coating of PTFE.
2. Disobeying physics is rare. More common is "adding on".
3. I've no idea and now that I think about it, it was pretty silly of me to bring it up given I don't know why it was considered strange.:smallredface:
5. That's a very big size range. One battleship being 100 times the size of another could cause confusion. However I'll concede this one as a draw.:smalltongue:
6. Yes, they don't have any speed or reaction time increasing implants.
7. Current score: GoC 1.5 - Lord_Asmodeus 1.5.
A tie.
8. If the chainsword blocks choppas then why doesn't armor? <- main point
Also SMs are generally outnumbered and given that chainsaws can be caught on things the SM will find himself dead should he be attacked by two or more orcs. Which is better: blocking the attack or killing the attacking orc?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

1. The problem is that acid is a very poor weapon, easily negated by a thin coating of PTFE.
2. Disobeying physics is rare. More common is "adding on".
3. I've no idea and now that I think about it, it was pretty silly of me to bring it up given I don't know why it was considered strange.:smallredface:
5. That's a very big size range. One battleship being 100 times the size of another could cause confusion. However I'll concede this one as a draw.:smalltongue:
6. Yes, they don't have any speed or reaction time increasing implants.
7. Current score: GoC 1.5 - Lord_Asmodeus 1.5.
A tie.
8. If the chainsword blocks choppas then why doesn't armor? <- main point
Also SMs are generally outnumbered and given that chainsaws can be caught on things the SM will find himself dead should he be attacked by two or more orcs. Which is better: blocking the attack or killing the attacking orc?

1. Well its a good thing acid isn't there only weapon. Many weapons can be negated by certain kinds of defenses, this is no different.
2. Or perhaps its just not as noticed, because you don't often pick apart the physics of books as you read them (or do you?)
3. Indeed.
5. Well there's no accounting for anything being uniform in a galaxy spanning empire.
6. You have yet to tell me why this means they can't run or react faster.
7. W/E
8. It does, but no armor is invincible, and for what its worth, only the nob is really capable of hurting him (unless one of the smaller orks gets lucky). ChainSAWS sure, but these are chainSWORDS, they account for these things and have mechanisms to prevent such occurrences, and to get out of such events. Besides, they can dent steel walls, punching through an orks head is a common tactic (as well as elbowing their faces in) And the answer to your question? Both.

[GoC]

1. Well its a good thing acid isn't there only weapon. Many weapons can be negated by certain kinds of defenses, this is no different.
2. Or perhaps its just not as noticed, because you don't often pick apart the physics of books as you read them (or do you?)
3. Indeed.
5. Well there's no accounting for anything being uniform in a galaxy spanning empire.
6. You have yet to tell me why this means they can't run or react faster.
7. W/E
8. It does, but no armor is invincible, and for what its worth, only the nob is really capable of hurting him (unless one of the smaller orks gets lucky). ChainSAWS sure, but these are chainSWORDS, they account for these things and have mechanisms to prevent such occurrences, and to get out of such events. Besides, they can dent steel walls, punching through an orks head is a common tactic (as well as elbowing their faces in) And the answer to your question? Both.
1. No weapon can be negated completely for such a low cost.
2. Books, movies and webcomics. I annoy my friends by criticizing movies as they watch them.
3.:smallredface:
6. The might be able to react faster but not at superhuman speeds.
7. Current score: GoC 1.5 - Lord_Asmodeus 2.
8. The armor is far thicker than the very thin edge of the chainsword and thus is less resistant to damage.