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Nonanonymous
2008-05-24, 10:23 PM
Would this be a potentially game breaking concept? And if not, is there any rather easy way to do so? Phantom Steed just doesn't do it for me, and I'm rather fond of the variant Halfling Druid from Races of the Wild, but I don't truthfully care much for Paladins.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-24, 10:26 PM
So what your asking is....is it game breaking giving one of the few ok things about the paladin to every other class? No, its not game breaking, but it cheapens one of the few cool things about the paladin which might not be recived well

Nohwl
2008-05-24, 10:32 PM
i dont really consider anything gamebreaking if everyone gets the the same ability (in this case a mount) or a similar one. just make sure to raise up the enemies a little and its fine. (or a lot depending on what you give them.)

Chronicled
2008-05-24, 10:34 PM
Giving something to everyone doesn't tend to be game breaking (which is more defined as when 1 person has a hefty advantage over the others). As long as you don't have any paladins in the party, there shouldn't be any complaints.

If you do have a paladin, I'd suggest allowing them to have a pair of tigers, which they could ride standing with one foot on each. :smalltongue:

elliott20
2008-05-24, 10:36 PM
yeah, as long as all the players get the extra goodies, it really shouldn't matter much. in one old campaign my friend ran for us, we each got a special custom magical item that was probably way more powerful than what we should have gotten. But since we all got one, everybody was happy.

and since the GM can always have more minions and throw more monsters at the player, as long as the player side is happy with this change, the GM should feel okay about that.

Nonanonymous
2008-05-24, 10:38 PM
So what your asking is....is it game breaking giving one of the few ok things about the paladin to every other class? No, its not game breaking, but it cheapens one of the few cool things about the paladin which might not be recived well

Well what if I was using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551) version of the paladin?

And I wasn't exactly thinking of giving it to everyone as a base class ability, but maybe writing up some prestige classes that allowed for mounted mages and such. And historically the leaders of armies had a tendency to ride mounts, didn't they? What if the leader is a fighter, barbarian, or caster? Shouldn't there be a high-level survivable mount for those situations?

EDIT: Whoops, somehow the link disappeared from my post.:smallconfused:

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 10:46 PM
Maybe just give everyone the leadership feat for the purpose of mounts, rather than a special mount feature.

monty
2008-05-24, 10:48 PM
And when everyone has a mount...no one will have one.

Temp.
2008-05-24, 10:55 PM
Maybe just give everyone the leadership feat for the purpose of mounts, rather than a special mount feature. This. There's a reason so many rideable monsters are listed with LA (cohort).

With that LA, the advanceable mounts aren't normally available until level 9, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

There's also the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat on the web, but it's not very good.

And for Arcane spellcasters, you might talk to your DM about using Improved Familiar for some other options. HP will be low, but you'll never be more than 5 feet from your mount, so shared buffs should keep the familiar alive.

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 10:58 PM
If the paladin's mount is a big deal, give him an alternate class feature, like a special weapon, or give his mount additional bonuses. And for the purposes of his paladin spells & feats for a "special mount" have them work on his leadership mount.

Also, restrict which classes the mounts have access to. Maybe just monk, swordsage, fighter, ranger, and other non-full casting classes.

Nohwl
2008-05-24, 11:03 PM
just give the paladin better options for a mount than the other people. if the paladin had a dragon(or whatever) for a mount and everyone else got war horses, there would still be a reason to play a paladin.

Cuddly
2008-05-24, 11:06 PM
I like the idea of warcraft type archmages, though.

de-trick
2008-05-25, 12:14 AM
If your making a prestige class or a varient of the base class then it should be game breaking.

I'd do this exsoming there is a fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric

fighter loss a couple of bonus feats
wizard familar and a bonus feat
rogue trapsense or sneak attack
cleric turn undead

that should be ok

:edit I'm a ogre now:smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2008-05-25, 12:37 AM
Would this be a potentially game breaking concept? And if not, is there any rather easy way to do so? Phantom Steed just doesn't do it for me, and I'm rather fond of the variant Halfling Druid from Races of the Wild, but I don't truthfully care much for Paladins.
Not particularly, no; giving the Paladin class ability to everyone weakens Paladins slightly, but in general, you'll be strengthening everyone pretty much equally, which doesn't cause party balance issues.

Another way to do it would simply be to treat mounts much like magical equipment. That is, it's not targeted separately for most effects (except, potentially, on a natural 1). So the little issue that your light warhorse only has 3 hit dice doesn't come up most the time - if you get hit with a Fireball, the horse doesn't take the damage - you do. Attempting to attack the horse provokes (unless the attacker has Improved Sunder) and so on.

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-25, 12:44 AM
If you do have a paladin, I'd suggest allowing them to have a pair of tigers, which they could ride standing with one foot on each. :smalltongue:
In order to even out, that paladin would need to be riding a pair of flying air-sharks made out of pure lightning.

Thinker
2008-05-25, 12:52 AM
Shouldn't there be a high-level survivable mount for those situations?

There is the Warbeast from MMII p219.

Fizban
2008-05-25, 01:08 AM
This. There's a reason so many rideable monsters are listed with LA (cohort).

With that LA, the advanceable mounts aren't normally available until level 9, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

There's also the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat on the web, but it's not very good.

And for Arcane spellcasters, you might talk to your DM about using Improved Familiar for some other options. HP will be low, but you'll never be more than 5 feet from your mount, so shared buffs should keep the familiar alive.

I was going to post that feat, and I disagree about it's power: the Wild Cohort has only 1 less HD than the druid's animal companion, which is widely considered to be nearly as good as a fighter by itself. Comparing it to the paladin's special mount, it has several more HD, and only loses the increased intelligence, which is unneeded in the capacity of a mount.

If you give everyone a special mount, I would suggest giving the paladin an alternate class feature, such as the charging smite (PHBII), or the spirit thingy (Complete Champion).

Finally, as others have said, if you give everyone the same benefit it shouldn't mess up party balance. I'd suggest giving everyone a free bonus feat that must be put towards some sort of mount: Wild Cohort, Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Improved Familiar (a hippogryph is available at higher levels), Extra Slot (take an extra 3rd level slot and cast Phantom Steed every day), and so on. The paladin can take either a feat to improve his mount, a feat for an extra "mount" (say a Dire Wolf as a hunting comapnion or somesuch), or just any feat at all, since everyone else is getting a free feat.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-25, 09:30 AM
I was going to post that feat, and I disagree about it's power: the Wild Cohort has only 1 less HD than the druid's animal companion, which is widely considered to be nearly as good as a fighter by itself.
Sorta. At 1st, the Riding Dog's AC 16, 13 HP, and Bite +3 for 1d6+3 is maybe going to keep up with a Str, Dex, and Con 14 Fighter with a Greatsword and Scale Mail (same to-hit, same AC, Fighter averages about 3.5 more damage while the Riding Dog has 1 more HP); dog's faster, though, and can be improved with a little Leather Barding. Plus the Fighter has more feats to play with - using the Fighter Bonus Feat on Toughness puts the Fighter over on everything of importance except speed and tripping (assuming an otherwise balanced party).

At 4th, the Druid's Ape (combat monkey of that level) at 29 hp, AC 14, Full Attack 2 Claws +7 for 1d6+5 and Bite +2 for 1d6+2, vs. the same fighter (with better equipment - +1 Sword, +1 Armor, and some potions, but otherwise the same) gives you a Fighter with 10+5.5*3+2*4=29.5 HP, AC 17, attack +7 for 2d6+4 ... and this is ignoring the Fighter's bonus feats. The Ape gets reach, which is a decided advantage, but before the Druid's buffs (which also apply to a Fighter, for the most part) the Fighter is harder to hit, and can pick up a bow if needed to cover the reach aspect. Add in that the Fighter has three bonus feats to use on, say, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), and Power Attack (not a particularly grand choice, but still), then the Fighter can be attacking at +7 for 2d6+3(Strength)+1(enhancement)+2(Weapon Specialization)+2(Power Attack away the +1 to-hit from Weapon Focus); the Fighter, against the Ape's AC 14, averages 15 per hit (ignoring crits) and hits on a 7 or better (70%) for an average damage per round (ignoring crits) of 10.5. The Ape, on the other hand, is hitting the Fighter's AC of 17 on a 10/10/15, for average damage of 8.5/8.5/5.5 per hit, and an average damage per round of 11 damage. Assuming the Ape's reach is effectively countered by the Fighter's ability to use a bow, it's a bit of a coin toss as to which wins ... except that the Ape's feats are fixed, and the Fighter still has his character level feats (1st and 3rd, plus any racial effects) to play with. Also, the Fighter can go places that the Ape can't (at least, that the Ape can't without a Reduce Animal from the Druid, which reduces the Ape's fighting ability). Plus the Fighter can do intelligent maneuvering right out of the box. If we put some Leather Barding on the Ape (chosen for the lack of a need for proficiency) then the Ape is reasonably likely to beat up the Fighter listed (although the Fighter listed isn't particularly optimal, and that could be fixed).

If we compare to a Barbarian, the Animal companion pretty much loses at both 1st and 4th levels.

Later on, the Animal Companion's HD don't advance fast enough to help, and the Fighter's wealth and feats more than keeps up with the AC's special abilities - even checking vs. other Core animal companions.

Now, this changes at 4th if you let the (non-core) Natural Bond feat mitigate the advanced Animal Companion's level adjustment... so don't do that.

Jimp
2008-05-25, 09:36 AM
Would the mounts gain special abilities like the Paladin's or just be special summonable things?
If they do gain abilities, would it be different for each class?

Nonanonymous
2008-05-25, 12:23 PM
I haven't exactly though about that part, though it seems like a rather good idea. A barbarian's might share the speed increases and get some attack bonuses, but ultimately stay as intelligent as a regular member of its species. Fighters' would probably get around the same thing as a Paladin would, maybe just opening the Cavalier prestige class from Complete Warrior to them and making it give you access to a Special Mount if you don't already have one instead of just stacking with Paladin class levels for that purpose. Rogues and Monks don't strike me as really needing or being suited to the use of mounts, and Druids and Rangers could probably be given a prestige class that works like the Halfling Druid does with Animal Companions. As for Clerics, I imagine they could just use a combination of Planar Ally spells, buffs, and the possibility of Ride as a class skill. The arcane casters would likely get a prestige class sans one or two levels of spell progression and the ability to get larger versions of their familiar that they could easily use as mounts.