Vegetarians in the playground III [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Illiterate Scribe

2008-05-25, 07:06 PM

I am not a vegetarian :smalleek:, though I do side with vegetarians for many meat issues. I do believe in eating meat, but I only eat meat that is not from big meat companies who treat the animals poorly and/or their animals are unhealthy. For that reason, I avoid all fast-food. I have tried being a vegetarian, but I just couldn't give up meat entirely. I grew up with it, and I cannot force myself to go without it for my whole life. Please forgive me!

Forgiveness in death! *blam*

i was a vegan, but then i went insane and started eating termites so i guess i kinda lost my v-card.

Yeah, but I'd kinda expect that from you, Reorith.

Are termites tasty?

reorith

2008-05-25, 07:16 PM

Yeah, but I'd kinda expect that from you, Reorith.

Are termites tasty?

not really. they're kind of bland. i do the whole chimp thing and fish them out with a stick, so i don't ever have enough in my mouth at one time to really taste them.

Illiterate Scribe

2008-05-25, 07:20 PM

not really. they're kind of bland. i do the whole chimp thing and fish them out with a stick, so i don't ever have enough in my mouth at one time to really taste them.

Shame. I accidentally swallowed a spider once (yes, vegetarians in this thread, but if they crawl into my mouth while I'm asleep, what else can I do?). They don't have much spiciness, or zest to them.

Jack Squat

2008-05-25, 08:47 PM

I'm not a vegetarian, but I do have a lot of respsect for people who are.

I have trouble giving up meat for they days I have to in Lent (Ash Wednesday and all fridays)...and even then I can still eat fish.

TRM

2008-05-25, 09:31 PM

I am not a vegetarian and I think not eating meat period is silly, humans were meant to eat meat after all. Yes, we are omnivores. What I do think is that we should only eat humanely treated, happily raised, and unsufferingly (I know it's not a word) killed animals.
So I try to purchase all my meat from local CSAs and Farmers' Markets, especially ones where I can actually go and see how the animals live and are killed. I avoid fast food joints and meat from the grocery store, though this is difficult because I'm not the primary food purchaser of my family...

d'Bwobsling

2008-05-25, 09:36 PM

If O-chul didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat? :smallamused:

that's probably the 50th time I've heard a comment like that! these comments really get old, you know...:smallmad:

Narmoth

2008-05-26, 03:55 AM

The only vegetarian in my family is my sisters rabbit. And even with her I'm not shure sometimes.
She bites (the rabbit obviously)

InaVegt

2008-05-26, 04:51 AM

There are ample comments I'd like to make, but I'll refrain myself to the following, logical, conclusion:

The less meat you eat, the lower the demand will be, and the cheaper meat will become, resulting in others eating more meat.

Dumbledore lives

2008-05-26, 04:57 AM

Shame. I accidentally swallowed a spider once (yes, vegetarians in this thread, but if they crawl into my mouth while I'm asleep, what else can I do?). They don't have much spiciness, or zest to them.

You know I read we eat something like 5-10 bugs during our lifetime when we're asleep, kind of creepy if you think about it. I eat meat, though I do prefer organic stuff, if it isn't any less tasty.:smallbiggrin: I guess I see why people don't eat meat, and I respect their self control because i don't think i could ever decide "I'm not going to eat meat." and stick to it. Maybe if your whole family is it's easier.

Illiterate Scribe

2008-05-26, 04:57 AM

poleboy

2008-05-26, 05:28 AM

There are ample comments I'd like to make, but I'll refrain myself to the following, logical, conclusion:

The less drugs you take, the lower the demand will be, and the cheaper drugs will become, resulting in others taking more drugs.

Er ... what?

Ordinary business models do not apply to stuff that is distributed illegaly. Drug running is expensive you know!

Illiterate Scribe

2008-05-26, 05:30 AM

Ordinary business models do not apply to stuff that is distributed illegaly. Drug running is expensive you know!

Yes, but the analogy doesn't work. You can't really argue 'well if I didn't, someone else would'.

Johnny Blade

2008-05-26, 05:59 AM

Yeah, but a good discusion involves arguing. We just need to keep it polite
I'll take your word for it... :smallbiggrin:

People are supposed to eat meat. If we weren't, then we wouldn't need protein to survive.

I am not a vegetarian and I think not eating meat period is silly, humans were meant to eat meat after all.
Meant to? So, who decided that humans are supposed to eat meat? :smallwink:
And are you telling me that, because we need certain nutrients etc., it's okay to kill animals (and decide the fate of whole species) although those nutrients can be obtained from other sources as well?

Really, that was an argument decades ago, when many people had to eat what they could get their hands on to cover their needs.
But now, as we're facing global overproduction and are at the same time able to get all we need from a vegetarian (or even vegan*) diet, it's just cynical.

There are ample comments I'd like to make, but I'll refrain myself to the following, logical, conclusion:

The less meat you eat, the lower the demand will be, and the cheaper meat will become, resulting in others eating more meat.
Sorry, but this is wrong. Simply because, at some point, the demand for goods like foods is saturated because, well, the consumers are saturated too :smallwink:.
Also, the demand for foods is rather inflexible, although meat can of course easily be replaced with other stuff.

I mean, would you eat 4 steaks a day if you'd pay only one Dollar for one?
Would you stop eating altogether if food prices rose by 80%?

(And the production and pricing of meat is often as cheap as possible, anyway.)

If anything, a higher demand for vegetarian food would make companies produce more of it.

Anyway, I find it wrong to make the mass market the base of your ethical decisions. :smalltongue:

*: About a vegan diet - I wanted to try it at some point, but actually, I couldn't afford that as an university student.
I'll just leave it at that without going on an extended rant about economic stuff, but I wanted to note it.

Caracol

2008-05-26, 06:03 AM

Vegetarian here!!!

To all the people that so far said that "people are supposed to eat meat" I say: from the later blood and nutritional analysis I made, I'm healthier now than before to be a vegetarian.

Woofsie

2008-05-26, 07:31 AM

The line that humans are "supposed" to eat meat is ridiculous. Sure, we've evolved to need certain protiens, and eating animals is a very convenient way to get them. But it is by no means the only way, and many would argue that it is unethical. If you say "durr we're supposed to eat animals 'cause that's the way we were made", you may as well say that we should live a nomadic lifestyle and spend all our time hunting and mating.

Fact is, practically nothing we do as a society anymore can be considered "natural". We have for the most part moved beyond that; we're no longer fighting for our lives in the wild, we have comfortable and established societies, and, on the whole, we have a lot more freedom to consider ethics and morality. We don't have to just look out for ourselves at the expense of everything/everyone else anymore.

H. Zee

2008-05-27, 01:39 AM

I'm a pescetarian, or in other words, a vegetarian who eats fish.

This is because I think it's hypocritical to eat an animal which you wouldn't kill yourself. I'd kill a fish - and have done before - but I'd never be able to bring myself to kill a chicken, cow, pig, etc.

Also, another reason I became a pescetarian is as a form of protest at the way so much rainforest is being cleared to make way for cattle pastures. And I'm considering becoming a full-on vegetarian, as a protest against overfishing.

Not that either would actually do anything to stop what's going on... But at least I know I'm not participating in the destruction...

Also, to those who say "humans are meant to eat meat"... We can survive comfortably without meat, it's no longer a necessity, so we should STOP.

Susil

2008-05-27, 02:06 AM

^ and ^^ Couldn't put it better myself, thanks!

My friend became vegetarian recently, his explaination was that he couldn't think of any way he could justify eating meat when it was clear that in the circumstances we're living in it was far from necessary.

I'd say that if things were different perhaps I'd eat meat but I dunno how they'd have to differ before I would. I mean, short of pulling some kind of Ray Mears and living out in the bush?

What do you guys think? In the real world, is there a point where yeah, you'd go back (or just go) to eating meat or do you think that actually we've gone too far from that now and it won't ever happen?

Lemur

2008-05-27, 02:08 AM

Didn't it get a bit ... argumentative the last time?

I am still as vegetarian as I was a few months ago - if that's any help to you.
This white text is reserved for me to rue my post if someone tries to start an argument over it.
Yeah, this topic always attracts people on a crusade about whether people should/shouldn't eating animal flesh. Apparently what others choose to eat or not to eat is infuriating for some people, as if antelopes are corrupt for not eating meat, and alligators are cruel for for doing so. No one ever seems to get hot and bothered when someone tells them to stop eating fast food and soda, though.

I don't think health should not be considered as a serious factor in this case. It's fully possible to eat a balanced, healthy diet with or without meat. It's also possible to eat poorly either way as well. Sure, some vegetarians may go into it without important nutritional information, but a lot of us average folks are like that anyway.

If O-chul didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat? :smallamused:

O-chul is made out of meat too, you know. Actually, maybe it's ink and paper. Wait, this is the Internet, so he's made out of electricity and light. I think. I need to think about this.

So, if he's made out of electricity and light, then he must want us to modify him in Photoshop, right? I think that's the primal instinct in this case (Wikipedia isn't helping me check my facts though). But I don't think that the Giant wants us to do that, and O-chul answers to Rich, last time I checked.

Holy generic profanity term this is confusing. I can see why Rich doesn't like theology discussions on this board, this sort of thing is best left to professionals.

Anyway, what happened to love and compassion for our fellow man, and respect for human diversity? Did someone eat it all?

Vaynor

2008-05-27, 02:18 AM

I'm not a vegetarian, technically. I just don't eat much meat. I'll only rarely order a main course of meat at a restaurant, and when eating at home tend to avoid meat-based products as much as non-meat-based ones. I dunno why, I realize animals are mistreated, that is wrong, but eating meat is natural, circle of life and all that. There's no need to be upset at the food chain, IMHO.

Myshlaevsky

2008-05-27, 02:19 AM

Vegetarian here. Got browbeaten into it by a couple of vegetarian friends a few years ago, but after their horror stories and eating veggie for a few years, I'd never go back.

SilverSheriff

2008-05-27, 08:22 AM

Vegetarian here. Got browbeaten into it by a couple of vegetarian friends a few years ago, but after their horror stories and eating veggie for a few years.

Jeez, I hate those types of Vegetarians, "LOL Meat is EVILZ!" can't people be free to make their own damned decision? These people bully people into going into a 'Healthier option', I personally don't like people telling me what I can and can't eat.

I myself, live on Meat, Dairy, Muesli, whole grain foods and fruits. I eat Vegetables sparingly because if there was 1 good vegetable in the local shop, I already know that my family doesn't have it, Dad bought lettuce the other day and it was giving of a sour after-taste, we threw it our and just had Hamburgers with Cheese.:mad:

but anyway: what is so good about being a Vegetarian that makes it a 'better' alternative to eating meats?

As I see it: Vegetarianism is never going to be an option, nor is it a very healthy way of living because you have to substitute the meat content of your diet with soy beans and ,lets face it ,just taste terrible.

Ranna

2008-05-27, 09:00 AM

Better than those who think all food is evil. *cough* *cough*

Some people are just up on their high horses, some over organic food and animal farming, some over what they should or shouldn't eat, some over ethics of medical procedures, some over religion, everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it. I reserve the right to ignore them if I wish.

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 09:19 AM

but anyway: what is so good about being a Vegetarian that makes it a 'better' alternative to eating meats?

Being a vegetarian is at least in my opinion a 'better' alternative to eating meat because you aren't needlessly killing innocent animals that have capabilities to feel the same emotions as we do. From what I have heard pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs.

As I see it: Vegetarianism is never going to be an option, nor is it a very healthy way of living because you have to substitute the meat content of your diet with soy beans and ,lets face it ,just taste terrible.

There is nothing wrong with soy beans if they are prepared correctly. Ever hear of the edimame? (not sure how it's spelled) An edimame is just a totally unprocessed and still green soy bean. Many times have I had an excellent salad made with them, some dried cranberries, some sort of crumbly cheese, and some sort of dressing. My non vegetarian family even prefer it to most dishes with meat in them.

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-27, 09:20 AM

Vegan here, been for about 2 years now, feel great and will never go back.

I've seen these threads posted and they always turn into a heated argument and get very mean, with the traditional insults thrown back and forth. Can we make this thread more positive? Like instead of arguing about if veg. is good for you or bad, can't we like share recipies, survival tips and great restaurants to try? To start us off: I'm planning on taking a trip to Japan, and I'm a little worried about staying as vegan as I can when I don't know the language and don't know a ton about Japanese cooking. I've done some research on the internet and found a few things to help, but does anyone have any advice/tips?

OneFamiliarFace

2008-05-27, 09:24 AM

I'm a vegetarian (4.5 years now), and I just consider myself a good capitalist. I don't like the product, so I don't purchase it. Just spending (or not spending) my economic dollar. :)

I would say to the meat-eaters out there that you outnumber us by quite a bit, so we may have already heard a lot of what you are saying from other people. And as far as the militant vegetarian goes, I have only met one before, and he was pretentious in general, not because of his dietary choices. Far more often do I hear non-vegetarians telling vegetarians their diet is stupid than the other way around. Actually, we were "meant" to eat fish and fowl if you want to get down to it. A human in the wild would have a rough time taking down a bison with only his Natural Weapons (1d3 nonlethal a round? The bison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bison.html) would have destroyed him easy). Pescetarian is actually the healthiest diet, so they should be telling us all what to do!

Heh, when I told my dad, his reply was, "So what do you eat now? Salads?" He was coming to pick me up from college to go home for break, so he stopped to pick me up something to eat. I got a paper, Outback Steakhouse bag with a salad in it. He told me he and his girlfriend had eaten two steaks. Ah, I love my dad. He made delicious fried chicken at his restaurant. It's pretty much the only thing I miss. That and squid.

I'm in Thailand now, and I've watched a pig be slaughtered and gutted. I think I'm okay passing on the pork. But hey, Thais think it's delicious. Can't argue with that.

Can we make this thread more positive? Like instead of arguing about if veg. is good for you or bad, can't we like share recipies, survival tips and great restaurants to try?
Yes, this is a great idea, especially if it largely involves using rice and more rice. Hmm...we have a lot of rice here.

Ranna

2008-05-27, 09:31 AM

Ooh I tried being vegan for a little bit, but I couldn't live without cereal and soy milk actually makes me gag bllleerrrggg its too sweet and thick (I only ever have skimmed milk on my cereal) and yet cereal with water or apple juice just doesnt cut it for me.

But I lost loads of weight which was great.. might do it again sometime just for that reason alone.

My one savior whilst I was vegan was "pure" it is a vegan spread which was lovely oh and Risotto I loved being able to make it myself and houmus, loved that too.

But other than that I am not so great with recipes I generally just shove things in a pan/oven/grill and see what happens.

ZombieRockStar

2008-05-27, 09:36 AM

Didn't it get a bit ... argumentative the last time?

I am still as vegetarian as I was a few months ago - if that's any help to you.

As you can see from how it's shaping up, it gets argumentative because some non-vegetarians come into the thread and start saying more or less that being vegetarian is dumb for any variety of reasons. Humans were meant to eat meat. A vegetarian diet is less healthy. Being vegetarian is actually more immoral because _______. Etc.

I'm gonna refuse to get into the argument whether it is or isn't or whether those are valid arguments or what constitutes the ideal human diet. What I have a problem with is that I think those meat-eaters who do take up a contrary position argue because they think that all vegetarians are stereotypical: self-righteous and eating it for "moral reasons" who think that being vegetarian makes them better people than those who eat meat.

To those people: on behalf of all vegetarians who really don't give a crap about what you eat, I resent that. I deeply resent you assuming what I believe simply because of what I've decided to eat (or not eat, whatever). I have my personal reasons for not eating meat that are none of your business and I find it offensive that every time the topic is brought up, you seek to make it your business. I'm not Lisa Simpson. I don't care what you eat and I really wish you'd stop caring what I do.

I'm not speaking for vegetarians who are doing it for moral reasons. I don't care what they eat either and they can argue with you on their own terms. Restrict your arguments to "being vegetarian for moral reasons is stupid," then, not "being vegetarian—period—is stupid."

That being said: I've been vegetarian for just over a year now. Worked at a meat plant for a week last summer and got disgusted. :smallyuk: Yeah...it basically comes down to me being a total wuss. :smallamused:

~

Positive topic: since going veggie a year ago, I've enjoyed cooking so much more. Vegetarian cooking is just more fun...it encourages you to experiment. You wouldn't think so with a narrower choice of ingredients, but hey. Maybe because it encourages you to go seeking out food from other cultures, since the veggie options in the standard North American palate are so limited, and so you can cook up an eclectic blend of western, eastern, middle eastern, Indian, Latino (gallo pinto is like comfort food to me...simple to make and tasty).

Izodor

2008-05-27, 09:37 AM

I've been a vegetarian for 5 years and turned vegan 2 months ago. I will never go back again. I feel great being a vegan.

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-27, 10:09 AM

veganism FTW

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 10:26 AM

How can you people chop up and eat poor, defenseless, innocent cucumbers and carrots and so forth? Plants have feelings too!

As to someone saying that pigs are as smart as dogs... pigs eat bacon and their young. Pigs are not nice animals. If a pig had the chance to eat you he would. So why not launch a preemptive strike and eat him first?

Also, what would happen to cows, I wonder, if we didn't eat them? Ranchers kill the cows that aren't good for butchering as well. They can't afford to feed and keep them if they can't profit from them. If nobody ate beef, then cows would put down for no reason all over the place. Same with pigs. The only reason for pigs and cows (except dairy cows) to exist is for breeding and ultimately food. Why take away the reason for their existence?

I'm all for slaughtering animals humanely and not to excess, but eating meat is efficient, suits my schedule, and is cheaper than buying more animal friendly alternatives.

If you don't eat meat because you don't like meat, I can understand that and won't argue with you. If you don't eat meat because your friends don't eat meat, or because you don't want animals to die, then I don't understand.

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-27, 10:41 AM

Positive topic: since going veggie a year ago, I've enjoyed cooking so much more. Vegetarian cooking is just more fun...it encourages you to experiment. You wouldn't think so with a narrower choice of ingredients, but hey. Maybe because it encourages you to go seeking out food from other cultures, since the veggie options in the standard North American palate are so limited, and so you can cook up an eclectic blend of western, eastern, middle eastern, Indian, Latino (gallo pinto is like comfort food to me...simple to make and tasty).

I've noticed this too. I used to be a picky eater, but since I've went Veg and then Vegan, I have opened myself up to lots of new things. Theres so many delicious things to eat from many cultures that I just love to eat now. If anyone is ever in the NY area I could reccommend lots of places to eat.

Also, if anyone was unaware, there is this nifty website to find food places wherever you're going: www.happycow.net This site has a restaurant finder that lets you input an address and it will give you a listing of all veg/vegan friendly places in a radius of however many miles you put in, and also reviews and links to the restaurant's website(if they have one). It's been a lifesaver!

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 11:08 AM

As to someone saying that pigs are as smart as dogs... pigs eat bacon and their young. Pigs are not nice animals. If a pig had the chance to eat you he would. So why not launch a preemptive strike and eat him first?

I have seen and heard of pigs living happily as indoor house pets, and as for them eating bacon, my dog would eat bacon or even dog meat if you put it in her bowl. Of course I had never heard of pigs eating there young, so I might not be in posession of all the facts.

Also, what would happen to cows, I wonder, if we didn't eat them? Ranchers kill the cows that aren't good for butchering as well. They can't afford to feed and keep them if they can't profit from them. If nobody ate beef, then cows would put down for no reason all over the place. Same with pigs. The only reason for pigs and cows (except dairy cows) to exist is for breeding and ultimately food. Why take away the reason for their existence?

Well as I can't see everyone stopping eating meat over night but rather a slow and gradule cesation over many years the decline would be so gradule that the ranchers would just breed less and less.

EDIT: I mean the ranchers would breed the cows less and less, I don't think what I was saying really has much to do with how the ranchers themselves breed.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 11:19 AM

Well as I can't see everyone stopping eating meat over night but rather a slow and gradule cesation over many years the decline would be so gradule that the ranchers would just breed less and less.

That's a nice way of saying the species will die out.

Woofsie

2008-05-27, 11:36 AM

How can you people chop up and eat poor, defenseless, innocent cucumbers and carrots and so forth? Plants have feelings too!

Actually they don't; no nervous system. :smallwink:

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 11:38 AM

That's a nice way of saying the species will die out.

I don't think they would die out, dairy is a big industry and as I said people keep pigs as pets.

And if you have ever watched the doctor who episode New Earth than you will remember when the Doctor said about the semi humans being grown for medical experimentation;
Nurse: But think of the humans out there healthy and happy because of us.
Doctor: If they live because of this than life is worthless.
Nurse: Who are you to decide this.
Doctor: I'm the doctor, and if you want to take it to a higher athority there is none. It stops here with me.

I am of course quoting this from memory so it may be a little bit different frim what I said.

Jibar

2008-05-27, 11:41 AM

Vegetarian.
I'm one of the "Kill it, you can eat it" kinds. Against the accquirement of meat, not meat itself.
I'm known to eat fish though, but that was advice from a vegetarian friend when I started and I've only been going for a year and a half odd. Once I leave home, off to Uni and all that, I'm going to stop eating fish. I hate fish anyway, so all you meat eaters out there feel free to eat them. I don't care how you get them, ocean dwellers (except mermaids) are not right.

Semidi

2008-05-27, 12:11 PM

I have to ditto everyone saying that they started cooking since becoming veg./vegan. I cook every other day now (the other days are leftovers).

The reason some vegan/vegetarians are so militant is that they think that carnivores are supporting a system that is causing animals to suffer horribly. They think that they have the better arguments. And that change will only happen when a sizable amount of the population realizes this. Though, as I've said in previous posts, I can't stand PETA. I am also annoyed with people who think they're morally superior because they do X or believe Y. I think the South Park Episode with The Smug characterized my feelings best.

That being said, I think a number of vegan/vegetarian arguments hurt themselves by virtue of being stupid. For instance, I saw a blatant appeal to emotion in one of my university classrooms talking about pigs and intelligence. There are plenty of good arguments, but they just had to go for the appeal to emotion. Sigh.

The reason I'm a vegetarian is because of Peter Singer's Book, Animal Liberation. It quite simply, crushed my own arguments, and I reluctantly gave up eating meat.
I love meat by the way.

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-27, 12:19 PM

even as a vegan, i don't think anyone would be swayed to go vegan/veggie just by seeing a thread about how "awezomezzz" it is. If you're that interested, PM one of the more intelligent members of the board, otherwise just sit back and enjoy the LOLfest this thread is bound to disolve into

and i will also state that i think PETA are a load of poop - they do FAR more harm than good. They are to pro-veggie politics to what michael moore is to "liberal" politics. Headline grabing, self serving and cringeworthy at best... downright dangerous at worst. They radicallise generations of angry "i hate my parents" teenagers with half baked ideas and not enough info to back it up.

reorith

2008-05-27, 01:04 PM

in defense of peta

1. peta has some nifty resources online like recipes and lists of vegfriendly goods and businesses.
2. if you've never hit on one of their petitioners, i recommend it.
3. they are possibly the most fun organization to troll irl.
4. makes a great alternative to sliced bread or rolls for sandwiches.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 01:09 PM

I don't think they would die out, dairy is a big industry and as I said people keep pigs as pets.

And if you have ever watched the doctor who episode New Earth than you will remember when the Doctor said about the semi humans being grown for medical experimentation;
Nurse: But think of the humans out there healthy and happy because of us.
Doctor: If they live because of this than life is worthless.
Nurse: Who are you to decide this.
Doctor: I'm the doctor, and if you want to take it to a higher athority there is none. It stops here with me.

I am of course quoting this from memory so it may be a little bit different frim what I said.

Less than 1% of the pig population are kept as pets. I mentioned Dairy cows as an exception. They are a different breed of cow. Technically, Hogs and beef cattle will go extinct because of the vegetarian agenda to give them a "better" life.

Izodor

2008-05-27, 01:11 PM

Wow, I feel almost ashamed to say here that I am a member of Peta and became a vegan because of ethical reasons and think that living a non-vegan life is wrong.:smalltongue:

SDF

2008-05-27, 01:15 PM

Wow, I feel almost ashamed to say here that I am a member of Peta and became a vegan because of ethical reasons and think that living a non-vegan life is wrong.:smalltongue:

It's okay, I almost feel bad that three separate species of animal had to die for the pizza I only ate half of last night. :smalltongue:

Izodor

2008-05-27, 01:18 PM

It's okay, I almost feel bad that three separate species of animal had to die for the pizza I only ate half of last night. :smalltongue:

Ah, no problem, I am so happy this forums allow us to disagree on these major ethical life issues and still converse friendly.:smallsmile:

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 01:45 PM

Less than 1% of the pig population are kept as pets. I mentioned Dairy cows as an exception. They are a different breed of cow. Technically, Hogs and beef cattle will go extinct because of the vegetarian agenda to give them a "better" life.

It seems we have come down to a matter of opinion. I don't really see the problem with letting the breed go extinct as this gives the land to animals that are born to live natural lives as opposed to ones that are born to die after living a miserable life. One time I read in a science book I was reading for school that it is ten times more efficient to just eat the grain and things than it is to feed them to animals and eat the animals.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 03:40 PM

It seems we have come down to a matter of opinion. I don't really see the problem with letting the breed go extinct as this gives the land to animals that are born to live natural lives as opposed to ones that are born to die after living a miserable life. One time I read in a science book I was reading for school that it is ten times more efficient to just eat the grain and things than it is to feed them to animals and eat the animals.

If you don't care if they die off, then why the hell do you care if we kill and eat them? :smallconfused:

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 04:12 PM

If you don't care if they die off, then why the hell do you care if we kill and eat them? :smallconfused:

because if cattle as a whole die off than they aren't being killed/suffering they just are not having any more be born. so you see I care how the animal is forced to lead it's life and ultimately death, but yet I would not have minded so much if that animal had never existed and the resources that had been directed to it had in staid been directed to an animal that could have lead a more fulfilling life.

Izodor

2008-05-27, 04:31 PM

Species do not suffer and can not feel pain. Individual animals do and can.

Wizard Guy

2008-05-27, 04:41 PM

much more elegantly put than how I said it.

TheCountAlucard

2008-05-27, 04:42 PM

and i will also state that i think PETA are a load of poop - they do FAR more harm than good.

THANK YOU!

One of the biggest things of theirs that sticks in my craw are those pamphlets they give out to kids - the ones that say stuff like, "Your daddy kills animals!" Ugh...

Y'know how they do those "animal cruelty" videos? They had this one really graphic one, in which a trapper catches a fox and skins it alive. The trapper got a big load of hate mail after that... he eventually stated that PETA paid him to do it, and that he'd never normally do that sort of thing, since it's entirely impractical to skin an animal alive.

BugFix

2008-05-27, 05:42 PM

I see lots of stuff needs correcting here, on both sides of the argument:

I don't think I could ever become a vegetarian, let alone a vegan. For one thing, groups such as PETA (who are entirely unethical) and "moral elite" vegetarians* have utterly ruined any appeal that not eating meat might have carried.

You might as well argue that <godwin> Nazi Germany had schools, therefore public education is bad.</godwin> That logic just doesn't work, sorry.

How can you people chop up and eat poor, defenseless, innocent cucumbers and carrots and so forth? Plants have feelings too!

Plants have no nervous systems. So no, they don't have "feelings" in that sense. And even if your goal is minimizing harm to plants, by not eating meat (which has to be fed and metabolize before slaughter, thus spending extra energy) you are causing less harm to plants by being vegetarian, not more.

I'm all for slaughtering animals humanely and not to excess, but eating meat is efficient, suits my schedule, and is cheaper than buying more animal friendly alternatives.

The efficient and cheaper bit is just flatly incorrect. Meat production takes far more energy and costs much more per calorie than staple grains (wheat, rice, etc...). This is true at all levels of the production chain. Pancakes are cheaper than hamburgers everywhere, and always will be.

because if cattle as a whole die off than they aren't being killed/suffering they just are not having any more be born.

Domesticated animals can't survive in the wild. If you release a herd of beef cattle into a wild prairie, most of them will starve (they don't migrate, and will run out of food where you drop them) or die gruesomely (the instinct to run from predators has been bred out of them). I think you have an over-romanticized notion of "living wild" than the one that nature actually provides.

Being a vegetarian as a means to reduce your impact on an already strained world makes a lot of sense to me (although to be fair: I'm not a vegetarian). Skipping meat as a way of being nice to the cute fuzzy animals? Not so much. Certainly humane meat production can be done, at least as free of suffering as anything the animals (or really, their undomesticated ancestors) would achieve in the wild.

TheCountAlucard

2008-05-27, 05:49 PM

You might as well argue that <godwin> Nazi Germany had schools, therefore public education is bad.</godwin> That logic just doesn't work, sorry.

The point I was trying to make is, people tend to judge by minorities, whether these judgments prove to be accurate or not. If you don't think that's true, look at all the negative attention gamers get.

Domesticated animals can't survive in the wild. If you release a herd of beef cattle into a wild prairie, most of them will starve (they don't migrate, and will run out of food where you drop them) or die gruesomely (the instinct to run from predators has been bred out of them). I think you have an over-romanticized notion of "living wild" than the one that nature actually provides.

QFT. Some domesticated animals have trouble surviving nowhere near "the wild." Cows will eat buckeyes and die from it. Turkeys will look up while it's raining, trying to find out where it's coming from, and drown. Sheep will blindly follow one another, even plunging off of a cliff just because the one in front did so.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 05:52 PM

because if cattle as a whole die off than they aren't being killed/suffering they just are not having any more be born. so you see I care how the animal is forced to lead it's life and ultimately death, but yet I would not have minded so much if that animal had never existed and the resources that had been directed to it had in staid been directed to an animal that could have lead a more fulfilling life.

A cow has no more ability to "lead a fulfilling life" than a cucumber.

BugFix

2008-05-27, 05:56 PM

The point I was trying to make is, people tend to judge by minorities, whether these judgments prove to be accurate or not. If you don't think that's true, look at all the negative attention gamers get.

No, what you argued was that you judge by minorities (i.e. you won't consider vegetarianism because of PETA). I responded that that was dumb, and provided a Godwin-approved counterexample.

You need to have your own ideas in this world: blindly following or opposing causes because of what you think of the existing parties is never going to result in good decision-making. Wars have, literally, been started from that thinking.

TheCountAlucard

2008-05-27, 05:59 PM

I've already stated that I know several great people who are vegans/vegetarians.

BugFix

2008-05-27, 06:06 PM

A cow has no more ability to "lead a fulfilling life" than a cucumber.
Again, I'm seeing stuff presented as fact that flies directly in the face of science. Cows can feel pain and express fear and pleasure. They bond to and care for their offspring and live in tightly bound social groups. All the mechanisms in our brains (to the extent that they are understood) that are associated with the same behaviors have direct, one-for-one analogs in theirs'. The only way you can argue this point logically is to try to pin down a definition for "fulfilling" that relies on some kind of squishy philosophy to define humans as "different" a priori. It's all circular.

Does that mean you shouldn't eat them? No. I do, for example. Predation is part of nature, and our recent non-human ancestors were pretty clearly eating meat. That's good enough for me. But don't try to argue based on the idea that cruelty to animals doesn't exist "because they're just animals", because it's just plain wrong.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 06:18 PM

[quote]
The efficient and cheaper bit is just flatly incorrect. Meat production takes far more energy and costs much more per calorie than staple grains (wheat, rice, etc...). This is true at all levels of the production chain. Pancakes are cheaper than hamburgers everywhere, and always will be. If you're going to think that way, I could buy vegetarian ramen for $0.17 a pack. Or a loaf of bread for $1. Now THAT's nutrition! <shudders>

I find it far cheaper and convenient to supplement my diet with meat rather than hunt down the substitutes in order to get a decent amount of protein in my diet.

And when I played football, I couldn't get conditioned fast enough if I didn't eat a good amount of meat and fat. Being a vegetarian athlete is hard. You've got to pay special attention to Iron intake, B12, calcium, and protein. It's hard to imagine a vegan athlete. I would imagine they would have to take a LOT of suplements from pills. Also, I've never heard of a 300lb vegetarian lineman.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 06:26 PM

Again, I'm seeing stuff presented as fact that flies directly in the face of science. Cows can feel pain and express fear and pleasure. They bond to and care for their offspring and live in tightly bound social groups. All the mechanisms in our brains (to the extent that they are understood) that are associated with the same behaviors have direct, one-for-one analogs in theirs'. The only way you can argue this point logically is to try to pin down a definition for "fulfilling" that relies on some kind of squishy philosophy to define humans as "different" a priori. It's all circular.

Does that mean you shouldn't eat them? No. I do, for example. Predation is part of nature, and our recent non-human ancestors were pretty clearly eating meat. That's good enough for me. But don't try to argue based on the idea that cruelty to animals doesn't exist "because they're just animals", because it's just plain wrong.
Did I say cruelty to animals doesn't exist? No. I said A cow can not lead a "fulfilling life" as humans have come to define the term (your definition is a'priori as well). If a cow can lead a fulfilling life, then all I need to do is eat berries and nuts, mate, sleep, and chew my cud to "lead a fulfilling life". I expect a little more from life in order to find it "fulfilling". I was only attempting to illustrate that the term is absurd in such a context. Not that we shouldn't treat animals with respect.

Semidi

2008-05-27, 07:05 PM

My views:

I should not cause unnecessary suffering.
(Note: This first point would require another argument, which I'm not going to bother giving because it relies on a subjective value judgment.)
The meat industry causes animals to suffer.
By eating meat I am supporting that industry.
Therefore: I should not eat meat.

I don't think eating meat is inherently wrong, I would consider eating meat grown in a tube, or meat from an animal to survive (as survival is necessary). However, eating meat is unnecessary, I live a perfectly healthy life without it.

This is the primary reason why I don't eat meat. However, fish might not feel pain, but I'd just prefer not to chance it. They clearly indicate that they don't enjoy having a hook put through their mouth.

However, there are other reasons, like ecology. 6 lbs of corn/soy is needed for 1 lbs of beef. People in the world are starving to death, and the price of food is always going up, hurting low income families. Also, overfishing is detrimental to the ecosystem.

Finally, health. I don't think low quantities of meat are bad, but Americans especially eat way too much as indicated by the rise of obesity, cancers, and heart diseases.

Do I think it is wrong to eat meat? No. I'm quite supportive of a symbiotic relationship between animals and humans. We feed them, keep the safe, and after a certain number of years, kill them painlessly. However, there is little regulation for this currently, and Americans such as myself already eat entirely too much meat. Which is why I currently abstain from "free-range" things.

Do I think it is wrong to support the suffering that is caused by the livestock industry? Yes. I find it morally apprehensible to support an industry that causes incredible amounts of suffering just to decrease profits.

Did I say cruelty to animals doesn't exist? No. I said A cow can not lead a "fulfilling life" as humans have come to define the term (your definition is a'priori as well). If a cow can lead a fulfilling life, then all I need to do is eat berries and nuts, mate, sleep, and chew my cud to "lead a fulfilling life". I expect a little more from life in order to find it "fulfilling". I was only attempting to illustrate that the term is absurd in such a context. Not that we shouldn't treat animals with respect.

I think you need to look up "fulfilling" in the dictionary. Here's a link. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Fulfilling

Copacetic

2008-05-27, 07:05 PM

I most often find that argueing with a vegetarian gets you nowhere. If they are dedicated enough to not eat meat, they won't stop because you tell them too. I eat meat, and will gladly accept any Cow Murdering titles that come along with it.

Hallavast

2008-05-27, 09:17 PM

I think you need to look up "fulfilling" in the dictionary. Here's a link. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Fulfilling

Care to explain how any of those definitions deny my reasoning?

Myshlaevsky

2008-05-27, 09:28 PM

Jeez, I hate those types of Vegetarians, "LOL Meat is EVILZ!" can't people be free to make their own damned decision? These people bully people into going into a 'Healthier option', I personally don't like people telling me what I can and can't eat.

Possibly this came off wrong. They joked around about, in a I'm taking-the-piss way when we got food together and stuff. After a few semi-serious discussions, I looked up some stuff and decided to go veggie. I'm not going to eat meat again, and was always fairly unhappy with killing things/animal cruelty (which is what I would call certain animal rearing methods). So I'm happy that I made the change, and they weren't quite "LOL Meat is EVILZ!". I don't think it's wrong to be informed of what makes your meal, but I wouldn't like if it I asked not to be and they continued to do so.

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-28, 05:31 AM

if you want to support a group that gets sh*t done, look at sea shepherd... How many other organisations can say they are funded by james bond?

well... pierce brosnan. But he is a spokesperson for l'orael products. Gash.

If you're really interested in finding decent groups to support i can reel off a few names.

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-28, 08:31 AM

I find it far cheaper and convenient to supplement my diet with meat rather than hunt down the substitutes in order to get a decent amount of protein in my diet.

And when I played football, I couldn't get conditioned fast enough if I didn't eat a good amount of meat and fat. Being a vegetarian athlete is hard. You've got to pay special attention to Iron intake, B12, calcium, and protein. It's hard to imagine a vegan athlete. I would imagine they would have to take a LOT of suplements from pills. Also, I've never heard of a 300lb vegetarian lineman.

I think anyone who wants to be an athlete has to pay special attention to their diet, and also lots of people take supplements. It's hard work conditioning yourself, and if a vegan needs to work a little harder, so be it. I'm not going to deny that meat is very efficient when it comes to putting on weight and getting lots of protein, but it's not that much harder to be a vegan and accomplish the same thing. There are a bunch of vegan athletes, and are just as good as athletes who aren't veg (Mac Danzig for example). As for the 300lb. lineman, well I don't really see that happening with a vegan diet, but then again you have to have the natural build for that so maybe it's possible.

Zephra

2008-05-28, 07:03 PM

I am/would really like to be a vegeterian. Sometimes it's impossible for me not to eat meat...(when it would be way way too much trouble to have people cook veg. for me, and I can't live off pb&j)

I'm a vegeterian because if I can live perfectly well without eating animals, I'd rather do that. I've had both, and I don't miss meat.

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-29, 08:37 AM

Carl Lewis won a big slew of gold medals while he was vegan
There are world champion POWER LIFTERS who are vegan.
There a iron man triathalon athelete champions who are vegan.
There are mr universe finalists who are vegan (a british guy ranked #6 a couple of years back)

The point is - if you're a world class athlete, you'll monitor your diet anyway, so being vegan isn't really any more "effort".
Protein is easy - grains, beans, soya, lentils, chickpeas - and for a complete (all essential amino acids) there is a grain called quinoa (its a bit like cous cous, except it actually tastes nice!)

and for the record, i have a friend who used to play ice hockey who is 22 stone (approx. 310 lbs) who is vegan. Blows those theories right out of the water, don't it ;)

OneFamiliarFace

2008-05-29, 09:06 AM

Protein is easy - grains, beans, soya, lentils, chickpeas - and for a complete (all essential amino acids) there is a grain called quinoa (its a bit like cous cous, except it actually tastes nice!)

And, contrary to popular belief, soy and lentils are absolutely delicious, along with hummus, nuts, etc.. If anything, I get more protein than anything else, especially since being vegetarian instead of vegan throws eggs on my plate (the chickens are free-range...I know...they're right outside my house). Iron is the actual problem. Anyone know a good way to get more iron in my diet without using vitamins (they aren't readily available here)?

Also, has anyone ever played a character who doesn't eat meat? (May as well toss around a bit of DnD.) It may sound silly, but, after all, it worked for Richard Rahl. It's a good hook for a Wu Jen for example (or monk or cleric or monk/cleric).

reorith

2008-05-29, 10:52 AM

Also, has anyone ever played a character who doesn't eat meat? (May as well toss around a bit of DnD.) It may sound silly, but, after all, it worked for Richard Rahl. It's a good hook for a Wu Jen for example (or monk or cleric or monk/cleric).

a guy in my group had his paladin go vegetarian and took levels of ranger to impress this npc druid.

Dragonrider

2008-05-29, 11:23 AM

a guy in my group had his paladin go vegetarian and took levels of ranger to impress this npc druid.

That made me laugh aloud. :smallbiggrin: roleplaying ftw!

Susil

2008-05-29, 11:25 AM

Iron is the actual problem. Anyone know a good way to get more iron in my diet without using vitamins (they aren't readily available here)?

I recomend staples.

Ahem, yeah. Spinach is the best I know of, and any leafy green vegetables. If you cook it with egg you're looking at a pretty good ammount of iron thats also got lots of other good stuff. It's also present in stuff like figs and dates, apparently, and some breakfast cereals have it put in.

Also quinoa is awesome. The closest thing to it tastewise is millet, but quinoa has full protein like soya. Back when I was vegan I cooked it with a mushroom and mustard sauce, it comes out pretty nice.

Eldpollard

2008-05-29, 12:46 PM

reorith

2008-05-29, 09:50 PM

so i was at work today(subway lol) and this girl asked for a veggie delite and asked me to change my gloves since i was handling meat. i asked her if she had ever tried the chicken bacon ranch, and she told me she had not before proceeding to tell me about the horrors of the meat industry and stuff. then she asked for american cheese, so i asked her if she knew what rennet was. lulz followed and i wish i had a camera. she was kinda cute. i wish i hadn't done that.

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-30, 01:47 AM

iron =
tofu
beans & pulses
spinach
cabbage
wheatgerm
wholegrains
parsley
prunes & dates
dried apricots
pumpkin seeds
millet

to name but a few

if you're uk based (or don't mind the horrors of international shipping - its like a black hole i tellz ya!) the vegan society sell a brilliant wall chart to cover all the essentials (protein, fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, carbs and fibre) and how much you need to eat of each

H. Zee

2008-05-30, 04:20 AM

I'm vegetarian. I have been for about three years now. People always ask me how I can live without meat. And to them I reply with a mighty boosh quote "Cheese is a kind of meat. A tasty yellow beef." People tend not to ask me many questions.

The Mighty Boosh is epic awesome.

As to someone saying that pigs are as smart as dogs... pigs eat bacon and their young. Pigs are not nice animals. If a pig had the chance to eat you he would. So why not launch a preemptive strike and eat him first?

Hey, you know what? Humans are smart too, but occasionally not that nice either! We have wars, millions have died throughout the years thanks to human selfishness or cruelty...

Looks like there's only one option. Cannibalism. Everyone has to eat everyone.

[/internet sarcasm]

... *sigh* I love the way meat-eaters come on here and say "vegetarians are annoying telling us not to eat meat don't force your opinions on others!" and then proceed to do exactly that to us. I don't know what they hope to achieve! Do they really think someone like me, who's been a pescetarian for over 10 years, or someone who has the sheer strength of will it requires to be a vegan, is going to change their dietary habits because of an argument on an internet forum?

OneFamiliarFace

2008-05-30, 04:58 AM

xPANCAKEx, awesome, I am set. They constantly shove tofu and beans at me here.

And I think it only really requires a force of will to start being vegetarian or vegan...after a while, it's really just second nature. You form habits and can still eat Ramen noodles, so you're set.

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-30, 07:41 AM

Yeah, it really only takes some willpower to get over the inital hump (just like with pretty much any change), being vegan is really not that hard :smallsmile:

Agamid

2008-05-30, 08:38 AM

vego for 10 years now.

Became vego for taste reasons, as i hate the taste of meat and find the smell and look of it repulsive, so it hasn't really been hard for me to keep myself from slipping.
Since joining the whole vegetarian discourse though, i've been made aware of the terrors some meat animals have to endure before their lives are ended.

I can't say that i've had anyone try and 'convert' me back to eating meat in a good few years, maybe because most of my friends are either vegetarian, or used to be.
When i was staying in Sth Africa my uncle got really pissed at me because i refused to try the Boerewors sausage that were apparently his specialty to cook.
And earlier that year i went on a school camp where the organisers thought it was fine to give the vegetarians chicken. When i complained they said "But it's not meat, it's chicken", and you could see that with every fibre of their being they believed it... poor things...

I can't stand it when people hear i'm a vego they say, "Oh, you'll grow out of it." or something to that effect. Drives me F-ing nuts!

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-30, 09:02 AM

when i get home later i'll post up the recipe for american style cinammon pancakes (sans egg/dairy of course). They are taste approved by meat eaters, veggies and vegans alike, so you KNOW its a winner

RECIPE EXCHANGE FTW!

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-30, 09:43 AM

RECIPE EXCHANGE FTW!

Do you have Vegan with a Vengance or the Veganomicon? Some real nice recipes in there! Btw, looking forward to pancakes! (funny that xPancakex is giving out a pancake recipe :smalltongue:)

reorith

2008-05-30, 10:53 AM

Do you have Vegan with a Vengance or the Veganomicon? Some real nice recipes in there! Btw, looking forward to pancakes! (funny that xPancakex is giving out a pancake recipe :smalltongue:)

i love the veganomicon. there is a book the complete vegetarian cookbook it is a little older, but it also has some neat stuff involving strange plants i'd never heard of.
0 8585 013 6
does anyone know of a good vegan wine?

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-30, 11:18 AM

If you liked the Veganomicon, definitely check out Vegan with a Vengance, as its by the same author (and came out before the Veganomicon). I'll have to check out that book you mentioned, I'm always on the look out for new plants to eat :smallsmile:

As for wine, I can't help you there (don't drink) but I know I read somewhere about which alcohol beverages are vegan or not (most are, IIRC)

reorith

2008-05-30, 11:57 AM

As for wine, I can't help you there (don't drink) but I know I read somewhere about which alcohol beverages are vegan or not (most are, IIRC)

there is plenty of liquor and beer that is vegan, but it seems that almost all wine is fined with albumen, isinglass or gelatin :smalleek: i read that kosher wine is vegan, but that isn't my scene :smallfrown: yellow tail is vegan, but has all the complexity of a dr. suess book. i found a wine that was certified vegan, but i forgot what it was :smallfrown: lol wine

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-30, 01:38 PM

google to the rescue!

http://vegans.frommars.org/wine/

xPANCAKEx

2008-05-30, 01:38 PM

my screen name was create directly after discovering just how awesome this pancake recipe i have was... its litterally THAT good

Dragonrider

2008-05-30, 03:04 PM

there is plenty of liquor and beer that is vegan, but it seems that almost all wine is fined with albumen, isinglass or gelatin :smalleek: i read that kosher wine is vegan, but that isn't my scene :smallfrown: yellow tail is vegan, but has all the complexity of a dr. suess book. i found a wine that was certified vegan, but i forgot what it was :smallfrown: lol wine

Hey now, Dr. Seuss is quite sophisticated. Some of his stories I read as a kid and was nonplussed and now, in my mid-teens, I HOWL with laughter. :smallamused:

Edge

2008-05-30, 03:33 PM

Ah, what the heck.

Been a veggie since I was about 3, and I hit 17 on the 20th of June.

I have no reasons other than a simple dislike of meat.

OneFamiliarFace

2008-05-30, 07:58 PM

Do you have Vegan with a Vengance or the Veganomicon? Some real nice recipes in there! Btw, looking forward to pancakes! (funny that xPancakex is giving out a pancake recipe :smalltongue:)

Can I admit that when I read this, I wondered what kind of monsters would be in the Veganomicon?

I imagine the goblins from Troll 2, for one, as they hated the fact that people ate meat, so they turned people into vegetables and ate them. And they were defeated by none other than...

...a bologna sandwich.
Really. I'm not kidding.

SuperMuldoon

2008-05-31, 01:09 AM

Haha I think I saw that movie, though I don't remember how they were defeated like that. Must have been quite the battle!

Anyways, I'm sure if the Veganomicon contained monsters, they would be pretty rad, like Vegetable Man (from that one ATHF episode)

d'Bwobsling

2008-06-01, 12:54 PM

vego for 10 years now.

And earlier that year i went on a school camp where the organisers thought it was fine to give the vegetarians chicken. When i complained they said "But it's not meat, it's chicken", and you could see that with every fibre of their being they believed it... poor things...

I know what you mean :smallannoyed:. Whenever I tell one of my friends I'm a vegetarian, they ask me if I eat fish of chicken.I have to refrain from responding is fish a vegtable?

xPANCAKEx

2008-06-01, 01:11 PM

the fact is some people are just ignorant.

Now i don't mean that in the insulting, condiscending manner. I mean it in the sense that they find the concept entirely alien and just can't get their heads around it. I normally find as long as you don't get offended/go on the defensive and answer their questions about what you can/cant eat pleasantly and politely its ok

of course there are those just out to have a go - but i don't have those people for friends

reorith

2008-06-02, 11:42 PM

quick question for the vegetarians/vegans out there, hypothetically, if you had a kid, would you raise it vegetarian/vegan?

Hell Puppi

2008-06-03, 12:51 AM

I think I would let the kid make his/her own choice, and do what my parents did for me. Introduce new foods often and early :smallwink:

Agamid

2008-06-03, 01:09 AM

quick question for the vegetarians/vegans out there, hypothetically, if you had a kid, would you raise it vegetarian/vegan?

I think that i'd 'start them' vegetarian, but when they got older, went to school and started being exposed to meat i'd let them make up their own minds, and i wouldn't mind if they ate meat while staying over at friends' places or anything like that.
Also, i think my partner (if i had one) would have some input on this, i mean for all i know i might end up settling down with a meat-eater. (i already live with three so having one as a partner doesn't seem so far-fetched).

I hate cooking, handling, looking at and smelling meat though... so it's not like i'm going to go out of my way to expose my future kid/s to it.

Caracol

2008-06-03, 02:20 AM

I think I'll let him eat meat. Meat is important to give you proteins necessary to grow up with a good build, but after that, it becomes unnecessary. I'll let him eat whatever he prefers, trying to let him appreciate vegetables meanwhile.

Anyway, after the first period, I'll try to convince him to avoid meat (unless it's required for his health), but it would be his choice.

I'm not one of those vegetarians that screams "meat is murder". It is, but let's face it, almost everything we do is murder. Murder is the act of killing something alive, and I consider plants, insects, bacterias and everything else that has biological activity to be alive. You can't avoid killing if you want to survive, and sometimes (in case of bacterias) you can't avoid killing anyway: what can you possibly do to "not damage" the bacterias around you?

But when we talk about life with a consciousness, things are different. Animals do suffer when you kill them, with the difference that they know they are suffering. This is something I would like to avoid, and this is why I don't kill any animal, neither for eating or experimenting or anything else (all animal have nervous tissues. This is enough to me to say that they have a consciousness), except for parasites.
Also, the rising meat consume, among other things, it's slowly killing this whole planet. So, since is not necessary (you can live without it, if your health allows you) and kills creatures that understand that they are killed, I decided to be a vegetarian.

If my health would eventually require it, or I'm in a situation in wich eating meat is the only thing I have to do to survive, I'll do it, because my personal condition is slightly more important than the things I said before (Heck, I would kill and eat a person if necessary, so don't be around be when times are hard :smallbiggrin:)

d'Bwobsling

2008-06-03, 07:00 PM

quick question for the vegetarians/vegans out there, hypothetically, if you had a kid, would you raise it vegetarian/vegan?

I've been a vegetarian all my life and my whole family is, so that might influence my choise, but I would. I would make him (or her, lets not be sexist here) be a vegetarian, until he/she left the house, when it would be his/her choise to continue to be vegetarian.

reorith

2008-06-03, 09:20 PM

another question for the vegetarian/vegans out there. would you eat another human being?

Agamid

2008-06-03, 10:53 PM

another question for the vegetarian/vegans out there. would you eat another human being?

If it were a matter of life or death on my part, i think i'd eat anything to stay alive.

Izodor

2008-06-03, 11:31 PM

On the question if we should raise our children as vegans....

I would say of course. I am of the opinion that being a vegan is the only right thing to do, ethically. I am of the opinion that children can be healthy and be vegans. Therefore we should raise them as vegans and force them to be vegans if they do not want to. I think this is quite normal as you as a parent need to teach them what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is not. You do not let them make such heavy moral decisions by themselves and you certainly do not let them continue doing things that are wrong.

Zephra

2008-06-04, 10:01 AM

another question for the vegetarian/vegans out there. would you eat another human being?
gosh, I'd just like to personally thank you for asking such a hard-to-ask, but ultimately sincere question. But before I answer you, I choose to see if you yourself, in your large brain, can think of the answer to that question.ummm... okay, that was a little over the top. Sorry.... I didn't actually mean it like that, it's just that I get questions like that a lot... umm...no hard feelings, right?

Yiel

2008-06-04, 10:53 AM

If it were a matter of life or death on my part, i think i'd eat anything to stay alive.

Would you settle for Sticky Date Pudding?

On a cuisine related note to the other vegetarians: I've been using http://www.101cookbooks.com/ for a lot of cooking inspiration lately :D Its a good addition to my huge collection of Moosewood books.

d'Bwobsling

2008-06-05, 06:51 PM

another question for the vegetarian/vegans out there. would you eat another human being?

If it was a matter of life or death I would eat them, but only if they were dead, but I don't think my answer would change if I ate meat. If I were stuck in a place with no people, and the only way to survive was to eat meat then I would.

TheCountAlucard

2008-06-05, 08:01 PM

I am of the opinion that being a vegan is the only right thing to do, ethically.

This attitude really burns me up. REALLY burns me up. Don't play the "ethics" card, please. It's the "moral" vegetarians that bug me, the ones that feel that they're "better" than other people for "not killing animals." Choosing a specific dietary path does not make you better than other people.

Devin

2008-06-05, 10:00 PM

This attitude really burns me up. REALLY burns me up. Don't play the "ethics" card, please. It's the "moral" vegetarians that bug me, the ones that feel that they're "better" than other people for "not killing animals." Choosing a specific dietary path does not make you better than other people.

It burns me up when people don't expect others to act as their beliefs dictate. If eating meat is wrong, vegetarians have a moral duty to tell people that. If they're right, you're wrong, end of story. And this is coming from a meat-eater, too; I just hate the fake "tolerance" that means no one is allowed to actually believe anything.

Agamid

2008-06-05, 10:28 PM

Would you settle for Sticky Date Pudding?

On a cuisine related note to the other vegetarians: I've been using http://www.101cookbooks.com/ for a lot of cooking inspiration lately :D Its a good addition to my huge collection of Moosewood books.

I was about to say something like "Well, if you make it as well as my friend does, then of course!" ... but then i saw your screen name :P
I think i'd marry you just for your sticky date pudding :smallsmile:

reorith

2008-06-05, 10:55 PM

gosh, I'd just like to personally thank you for asking such a hard-to-ask, but ultimately sincere question. But before I answer you, I choose to see if you yourself, in your large brain, can think of the answer to that question.ummm... okay, that was a little over the top. Sorry.... I didn't actually mean it like that, it's just that I get questions like that a lot... umm...no hard feelings, right?

i'm relieved i'm not the only one to get this question often.

Agamid

2008-06-06, 12:04 AM

It burns me up when people don't expect others to act as their beliefs dictate. If eating meat is wrong, vegetarians have a moral duty to tell people that. If they're right, you're wrong, end of story. And this is coming from a meat-eater, too; I just hate the fake "tolerance" that means no one is allowed to actually believe anything.

i'm sure evangelical christians use a pretty similar argument to try and force themselves on other religions/beliefs, as well as fundamentalist muslims (hey, just look at the middle east) and a lot of other religions that believe in converting people to their way of thinking.

Informing someone of your personal beliefs is one thing, but forcing them on someone is another thing. And anyway, who made vegetarians and vegans the authority on morals? what gives us the right to start dishing out moral criticism?
I do believe that the way some animals are treated before they're killed is pretty awful, and i seriously do believe that more needs to be done with regards to animal rights, but insisting to every meat eater i know that they're murderers, or that what they're doing is morally wrong, that's just offensive, that's as bad as a meat eater telling me that not eating meat is wrong and i'll get sick if i don't.

Caracol

2008-06-06, 04:26 AM

i'm sure evangelical christians use a pretty similar argument to try and force themselves on other religions/beliefs, as well as fundamentalist muslims (hey, just look at the middle east) and a lot of other religions that believe in converting people to their way of thinking.

Informing someone of your personal beliefs is one thing, but forcing them on someone is another thing. And anyway, who made vegetarians and vegans the authority on morals? what gives us the right to start dishing out moral criticism?
I do believe that the way some animals are treated before they're killed is pretty awful, and i seriously do believe that more needs to be done with regards to animal rights, but insisting to every meat eater i know that they're murderers, or that what they're doing is morally wrong, that's just offensive, that's as bad as a meat eater telling me that not eating meat is wrong and i'll get sick if i don't.

If we start to argue about morals, then this discussion would go KA-BOOM and we will argue about other things, missing the main whole point and without coming to a solution. This because "moral" is a completely subjective and sometimes stupid and confusing word.

I don't eat meat because I follow a "moral". Neither being a vegetarian is only a matter of diet choice. I don't eat meat for the following reasons:

- Animal suffers, and the meat industry makes them suffer. Making things suffer is usually against someone's moral (but not always, just think about the religious freaks), but making things suffers is always wrong for the law.This is undeniable.

- The meat alimentation is slowly consuming all the cereal resources, food that would be used for more people, without waste. The world cannot sustain it. This is undeniable.

- Being a vegetarian and survive, without meat proteins, it's possible and sometimes good for your health. This is undeniable.

Notice that I never expressed moral statements or opinion. Those are actual things, datas, ongoing effects that you can demonstrate. It's not a matter of moral, of wrong and right. It's a matter of realizing what is going on. To me, those reason are enough to stop eating meat, and to try to convince other people: not that "eating meat is wrong", but that's not a clever thing to do once you realize this things.

detrevnisisiht

2008-06-09, 06:06 PM

I have been a vegetarian for 3 years now, and while yes I do feel it is wrong I will in no way EVER try to force it on someone. I have openly asked my friends and family to try to convince me to eat meat if they wanted to, after several hours of this I still felt the same. Then I ASKED and this is a prime word here, if I could try and convince then onto my side. Many have turned me down, more have been unconvinced, but a few have converted to my way of thinking. I handled all 3 of the situations the same way, happy for then no matter what their decision.

I think that Vegetarians, Vegans and Meat-eaters alike should never force their opinions on people; this is wrong, rude and (if you have the door to door religion salesmen on weekend mornings you know this) never gets anything done one way or the other.