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ocato
2008-05-25, 07:18 PM
I found the answer I wanted.

Chronos
2008-05-25, 08:19 PM
In case anyone else is wondering, your question was probably whether they stack, and the answer you found was probably "yes". What's interesting is that you can actually get better defense by poking feebly at an enemy once per round this way than you can via the Total Defense action.

elliott20
2008-05-25, 08:40 PM
one of my fencer friends says their philosophy is probably that total defense basically means you're letting your opponent control the flow combat and you're not in control of the pace, which, in the hands of an expert can be different.

but who knows.

Deepblue706
2008-05-25, 08:43 PM
one of my fencer friends says their philosophy is probably that total defense basically means you're letting your opponent control the flow combat and you're not in control of the pace, which, in the hands of an expert can be different.

As a fencer and someone who has participated in some training for SCA-related activities, that happens to be my take on it as well.

elliott20
2008-05-25, 10:10 PM
I can see how that would make sense as the same theory applies to fighting games as well.

Epinephrine
2008-05-25, 10:33 PM
Well, I'll take advantage of the thread then; I seem to recall reading some (feats? abilities?) that mentioned when fighting defensively or taking -2 to hit using Combat Expertise; can anyone recall an example of a feat or ability making reference to taking at least a -2 to hit with Combat Expertise counting as being defensive?

Chronos
2008-05-25, 10:48 PM
Still, though, the idea of fighting defensively is that you're doing everything possible to make yourself as hard to hit as possible. You'd think that if making an attack made you harder to hit, then fighting defensively would already include that.

The Necroswanso
2008-05-26, 12:42 AM
They do not stack. Both provide a dodge bonus.



Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal
A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special
A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

As per the SRD

Armads
2008-05-26, 12:58 AM
Dodge bonuses stack, you know.

Ungvar
2008-05-26, 12:58 AM
They do not stack. Both provide a dodge bonus.




As per the SRD

And per the SRD, Dodge bonuses, like circumstance bonuses, stack:



Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

... or you can just read pg 140 of the PHB:


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC for the same round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat (page 92)

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 01:00 AM
Here's the relevant part:
-All bonuses, except for unnamed bonuses from different sources and dodge bonuses, overlap.

Here's the relevant part from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus):

Dodge Bonus

A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.


So yes, you can do both, and yes they stack, and yes, a character with high Tumble-score, Improved Combat Expertise, high BAB and Elaborate Parry can get totally ridiculous AC (and Touch AC) when truly fighting defensively (he can use them to grant 24 points of Dodge-bonus with just the feats and 15 ranks in Tumble (as per Oriental Adventures Extreme Tumbling); add to that Elaborate Parry with 10 Duelist-levels and it's +34; even Dervish gets +28, and has the advantage of not overall sucking at everything else like Duelist (and supporting TWF which is the only smart way to fight when both fighters only hit with 20s)).

Armads
2008-05-26, 01:05 AM
Don't forget the Defending weapons. I prefer a Defending Necklace of Natural Attacks + Superior Magic Fang (or just an enchanted necklace), since it doesnt cost feats and also gives a whole crapload of AC.

quiet1mi
2008-05-26, 01:10 AM
damn Ninja'd:


Dodge Bonuses: Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

Dodge bonuses do stack...

the SRD says this on Fighting defensively:

as a full round:

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a 4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

as a standard round:

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a 4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

hmmm is it possible to fight defensively while using range attacks,if so how would that look like?

Edit:wait how come that part about them stacking is not in the SRD?

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 01:16 AM
Edit:wait how come that part about them stacking is not in the SRD?

Likely it was found superfluous as the statement that "Dodge-bonuses stack" exists in so many other places and it's not in any way forbidden to move your BAB while Fighting Defensively, mostly since they have nothing to do with each other.

ocato
2008-05-26, 01:30 AM
Well, I'll take advantage of the thread then; I seem to recall reading some (feats? abilities?) that mentioned when fighting defensively or taking -2 to hit using Combat Expertise; can anyone recall an example of a feat or ability making reference to taking at least a -2 to hit with Combat Expertise counting as being defensive?

Deadly Defense, Complete Scoundrel. If you take -2 to hit using combat expertise or fight defensively, you add 1d6 to your damage.

And yes, the question was if they stacked. I thought they did, my friend argued and argued it, so I posted. Then I went to double check and found my answer. I apologize.

Oh, and the character the question applied to did very well tonight. People died and he killed them.

dyslexicfaser
2008-05-26, 01:41 AM
Mind if I ask for some specifics on that character?

I've been thinking of making a defensive sort of character with Combat Expertise and Einhander and such (he's an Aristocrat; long story), and was wondering what can be done with it.

Matthew
2008-05-26, 01:55 AM
Just a quick clarification, in 3.0 Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise do not stack, which is probably where the confusion comes from.

ocato
2008-05-26, 12:06 PM
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10
Acrobatic Strike (+4 to attacks if you tumble past an AoO, aka 9 out of 10 times when Dervish dancing)
Deadly Defense (+1d6 damage if you fight defensively or take -2 on Combat Expertise)
Elaborate Parry (Dervish ability that adds +4 AC to fighting defensively, for a total of +7)

And a DM who was expecting a grossly less powerful character. I jumped my base AC 10 points by taking a net -0 on attacks (Acrobatic strike nullifying defensive fighting, +2 expeditious dodge, +1 haste) and buried my enemies under an unending barrage of attacks (boots of speed +TWF/ITWF/GTWF + belt of battle and/or Thousand Cuts) with my flaming keen scimitars (3d6+20/3d6+17 1d6 scim +1d6 fire +1d6 deadly defense).

I doubt I can ever play the character again, because the players/DM (we rotate out) all know the character well enough to pit us against flying characters or characters who fight in a corner/surrounded by jagged rocks. However, the flavor of a Prince of Persia/Capoeira character who is almost impossible to hit because of his blinding speed and elaborate swordwork was definitely fun to play.

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 01:39 PM
I'm playing a similar Dervish: Fighter 2/Scout 5/Dervish 7 - and with 15 ranks in Tumble, I'm getting +8 with Defensive Fighting and there's always the +5 from Combat Reflexes, allowing me to get a total of +13 AC (in addition to Expeditious Dodge for +2). I'll just point out that with any item that allows permanent Flying of at least Good manoeuvrability, Dervish Dance should be possible no problem (or at least with Air Walk), and you can Tumble across opponent's space so really, only 5'/5'/5' areas prevent dancing. Oh yeah, and Skirmish + Dervish = gold (+3 AC, +4d6 damage every attack, anyone?)

Epinephrine
2008-05-26, 03:08 PM
I'm playing a similar Dervish: Fighter 2/Scout 5/Dervish 7 - and with 15 ranks in Tumble, I'm getting +8 with Defensive Fighting and there's always the +5 from Combat Reflexes, allowing me to get a total of +13 AC (in addition to Expeditious Dodge for +2). I'll just point out that with any item that allows permanent Flying of at least Good manoeuvrability, Dervish Dance should be possible no problem (or at least with Air Walk), and you can Tumble across opponent's space so really, only 5'/5'/5' areas prevent dancing. Oh yeah, and Skirmish + Dervish = gold (+3 AC, +4d6 damage every attack, anyone?)

Must be a meme of some sort. My scout is going dervish soon, with Elusive Target and Improved Trip. Can't wait :)

The Necroswanso
2008-05-27, 12:36 AM
Dodge bonuses stack, you know.

Actually I did not know that. Interesting.