Draconians at Helms Deep

[Mr. Scaly]

I was flipping through wikipedia and I come across a statement that there are next to no orcs in the Dragonlance universe. Obviously this is true, but the comment then went on to state that draconians, minotaurs, ogres etc filled in for them. Now that got me thinking, because I've always considered them to be superior to orcs. So here's the test.

Helm's Deep. Exact same scenario. A few hundred humans with the same heroes, Erkenbrand and friends on the way, the only difference is that it's a force of draconians instead of orcs.

And then minotaurs. Then ogres and...you get the idea.

So then, how do demi-humans in general do at replacing orcs?

[Gaelbert]

Draconians are far superior to orcs, at least in my mind. Draconians are dragon blooded, highly magical creatures who can kill after they die. They can glide, are highly trained, smarter than the average human. They are born and bred for war. So were orcs, but that instinct has been dulled a little. Draconians are more recent, and their whole lives are war.

[warty goblin]

Pretty much my thoughts. Draconians are better disciplined from what I can tell, although they are by no means great shakes. They are also pretty clearly much stronger than humans, and, unlike orcs, use very good weapons and armor.

On the other hand they have a few disadvantages that are not readily apparent. The first is the Baaz' habit of going statue-like when killed, which is not of particular benefit in a siege situation. A Baaz killed on top of the wall who falls back over is unlikely to turn to dust before hitting his comrades, and their bodies could be significant hindrances during an assault up the ramp.

This actually brings me to their wings, which seem like they could easily get in the way during close fights, or at least reduce the number of draconians one could fit into a given space, which could result in a less efficient use of their greater numbers. On the other hand Chronicles makes no reference to this, so it might in fact not be a problem.

Minotaurs however are just plain metal.

[Adlan]

The thing is, the orcs at Helms deep wern't orcs, they were Uruk Hai, different, much nastier breed. Stronger, Tougher, resistant to the sun. And they are well armed and armoured by Saruman.

[Morty]

The thing is, the orcs at Helms deep wern't orcs, they were Uruk Hai, different, much nastier breed. Stronger, Tougher, resistant to the sun. And they are well armed and armoured by Saruman.

Not all of them. There were Uruks under Helm's Deep, but there were also plenty of regular goblin-like orcs as well as humans from Dunland. I don't know much about Draconians, but I feel that ogres and minotaurs would be quite obviously better soldiers even than Uruk-Hai and unskilled bandits.

[Mr. Scaly]

That's what I figured. They're smart enough to not just rush for the walls too. My guess is that they'd try some big engineering project to bring the walls down or bypass them entirely.

Of all of them, I think that ogres would be most like the Uruk Hai and use mostly the same tactics unless that had a particularly skilled leader, like Golgren or whoever. They're still much bigger though.

[Foeofthelance]

The thing is, the orcs at Helms deep wern't orcs, they were Uruk Hai, different, much nastier breed. Stronger, Tougher, resistant to the sun. And they are well armed and armoured by Saruman.

Roughly about the difference between a level 1 warrior and a level 3 fighter, with each equipped by Wealth by Level. That sound like a fair comparison of the Uruk Hai to regular orcs?

Now compare the draconians. There are five seperate species:

Auraks- Natural spell slingers. Not exactly on an Uruk's level martially, they come with a wealth of spell like abilities and explode in a rather violent fireball when they die. One of these guys alone could match the damage done by the Uruk's siege weapons. They also come equipped with a noxious cloud breath weapon, and the ability to disguise themsevles for several moments, and a Dimensional Step several times per day.


Sivaks- Natural rogues and rangers, they are capable of flying and can take the form of any creature they kill (as long as it isn't larger than they are) for several days. Imagine the chaos on the walls when the lead elements of the opposing army suddenly begin to look exactly like the defenders.

Baaz- Probably the closest to orcs, and probably a bit weaker than the Uruk-Hai. When they die they enemy has to react quickly, as they turn to stone, trapping any weapon in them.

Bozaks- Similar to the auraks, if a little lighter. Even then, each one could probably go toe to toe with an Uruk and have it be a fair fight.

Kapaks- Natural sneaks, they make for effective assassins, as their saliva is poisonous. They will generally salivate on their weapons before battle, so that a single nick will paralyze the enemy. They have a natural sneak attack, and when they die they collapse into a puddle of acid.


Now imagine that you are one of the defenders of Helms Deep. There are thousands of dragonic monstrosities advancing on you, some of whom are dropping from the sky. Fireballs and Scorching rays are licking out from the enemy forces, covering the advancement of ladders and attacking troops. Once they've reached the walls, you have to be careful, as being too close when one dies may be the last thing you ever do. Puddles of acid begin to spread across the floor, but they keep coming. You begin to fall back, and see your best friend around the corner. Rushing to his aid, you are surprised when he stabs you, a feral grin on his face...

[EvilElitest]

Well at helms deep we had


1) Northern Goblins
2) orcs of Isegard
3) Uruk hai of Isegard
4) Wargs (and Warg riders)
5) Wolves (and wolf riders)
6) Cerbain
7) Dunlainders
8) Men of Isegard/ Mercenaries
9) Goblins men,
10) Half orcs,
11) orc men
12) Possible some minor forces from morder, but i don't think any are mentioned

Anyways, so who replaces what?
from
EE

[Adumbration]

EE, why do you say we? :smalltongue:

Taking sides, already?

[Mr. Scaly]

SInce there's only five races of draconians, here's how i see it.

Footsoldiers (northern goblins, Uruk Hai, Dunlenders etc): the whole army. I have never seen a draconian fight on horseback before, though sometimes wyverns are used as messengers.

Cavalry (word riders/wolves): Very rare like I said above. However, there are instances of dracos running on all fours, using their wings to propel them to horse speed. Also Sivaks can actually fly, so they have an aerial cavalry involved too.


I imagine they'd have the same sorts of siege equipment, supplemented by Bozak and Aurak casters. As for actual armies involved, if I remember right the standard draconian infantry division was 1500 men, with engineer and artillery regiments another 300. With 10,000 men that's a pretty secure chain of command. I don't think that the orc forces were very organised, were they?

[EvilElitest]

EE, why do you say we? :smalltongue:

Taking sides, already?

um, well, um, look a bird fish
*runs and hides*
from
EE