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View Full Version : Multiclassing in 4e some Q's answered



Charity
2008-05-25, 08:46 PM
I would have stuck this on the end of the old multiclassing thread, but it appears to have plunged past page three however Massawyrm a 4e playtester and current possessor of the three core books has answered a few of the popular 4e multiclassing Q's. Flavour with as much salt as you deem nessisary.


Over on the WotC boards LINK HERE (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1034684) , Massawyrm has kindly responded to a few questions from different posters. Some of this may be old news, but I thought I would post them none the less.

A lot of people think multiclass feats will be either so good that they are obligatory or so worthless that no one will touch them. How has multiclassing played out in your games? Do you find more people using it than not? Or is it just one of many options?

Multiclassing appears to have a balance EXACTLY as it should have. Since no one class has better attack bonuses than any other, making martial casters is very simple. All the multiclassing feats do is let you swap one power of your class for a power of the class you are multiclassing into. For example a fighter multiclassing into wizard could trade one of his appropriate encounter powers for Fireball. Each Multiclass feat allows you to do this with different powers - and it gets cooler at paragon levels. I have two multiclassers in my Party, and 4 straight classes. And no one is unhappy.

So it's just an option for someone with a great idea for a character build. I doesn't unduly hinder or break a character. It just makes him...different.

Does the paragon level multiclassing option stack with the feats? IE, can you take the powers of the third class instead of paragon stuff?

Yup. That's the one option that will give people pause. Paragon paths are pretty sweet, their abilities made of pure win. One Paragon ability lets you spend an action point to reroll an attack or damage roll instead of taking an extra standard action. BUT, if you really like playing a multiclass, it is a neat option.

Are there more multiclass feats beyond the ones which have been previewed (Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power)?
Also, someone elsewhere stated that when you substitute a Paragon Path for multiclassing, you get an At-Will from that class as an At-Will. How does that work? Is that in lieu of the Action Point Feature gained from a Paragon Path, or something else?


Yes. Each class has a class specific multiclass feat that is a requirement for the three you mentioned. It gives you special class perks like specific class At-Will abilities as Encounter powers.

Just like it sounds. You can replace one of your at wills with one from your second class. One of the reasons humans (who get an extra at will ability) make good multiclassers.

1. Yet another multiclassing question We know there is for example:
Which allows you to multiclass into Ranger, however are there other beginning multiclass feats for each class. So could there be... Say one where instead of "Hunter's Quarry" gave you "Fighting Style"?
2. Given that the trap/hazard making rules are out, do you think uses the examples in the DMG it will be hard to make our own?

1) Exactamundo.

2) Sure. But the rules were very nice and on par with the Monster creation rules. But anyone with halfway decent math skills should be able to extrapolate the formulas or at the very least, fudge the attack type.

I meant beyond those three, actually. Are there higher level multiclass feats?

Not as of yet. But once you see the system it is kind of hard to imagine anything short of specific Paragon and Epic tier class specific feats that might rear their ugly heads in the forthcoming splatbooks.

I just read the review (after going through this whole bloody thread). I had a few questions. First of all, I remember the Orcs .pdf having several exact orcs, but no "default" orc. Is this just because the .pdf was less than the information in the MM? I certainly hope so.
Also, I noticed in your review that there were trap/hazard making rules in the playtest rules. If WotC doesn't include these in digital format soon after release, would you be able to share the playtest rules, or would that violate your NDA? I'd rather have rules than just "eyeing" current traps/hazards, since I've been known to make mistakes in the past (turns out 8 shocker lizards aren't a good encounter for a 7th level party).

No, there really isn't such thing as DEFAULT monsters in a race any more. While some monsters just are what they are (The Boneclaw is just called Boneclaw) monsters like Orcs, Drow, Sahuagin and Shadar-Kai don't have a weakling default for you to beef up any more. Each Orc is designed to fit a specific role within its Tier (Orcs are heroic level enemies, while Drow appear in Paragon.) But stating out your own different versions of these monsters is pretty cake with the monster gen rules.

WOTC has been putting a lot of focus on balance. How balanced are the classes really (mainly between the Rogue, Warlock, and Ranger.) Do they all have comparable damage and effects, or does a class stick out?

The level of balance really is what impresses me most. Everyone, and I mean everyone, pulls their own weight in a fight. BUT, there is one class that sticks out. The Ranger. Since he is more about raw, direct damage to a single opponent, he'll chaff the DM a bit when he makes one of his pesky double shots then action points to do a high damage shot. I've lost more elites that way on turn 1.

How is the paladin?

Awesome and full of win. We've only had one in our party for a month - we had a player experimenting to find the right class. But this class puts a smile on his face from ear to ear. And he has become a combat superstar in that month - with a player who is not accustomed to being a superstar. None of his powers are alignment based.

Is their a decent amount of monsters to throw at 1st level parties that are not kobolds?

15 level one monsters, 3 of which are kobolds. 18 lvl 2 monsters, 1 of which is a kobold. Lots of selection.

I noticed that both of the traps in the trap preview article... thing... had "control panels", where they were disabled. Was this just something both traps happened to have, or do all/most of the traps now have this attribute?

The words CONTROL PANEL are all over the trap section. Each trap has a series of listed countermeasures on how the players might try to disable the trap with the respective DCs. The impression I got was control panel would be as simple as the classic "Lever" or "button."

Is there a way for a rogue to sneak attack with weapons heavier then a "light blade"

SHRUG. If there is, I haven't seen it. Although they can use it with slings and crossbows.

and a comment which was not an answer per say

Retraining is very easy. Every level up you can make one change - a swap of a power, skill or feat, with specific rules for each.
But retraining doesn't allow any kind of a class swap, so while you could swap out old feats for new ones presented in PHB 2 (one per level up) you wouldn't be able to take any that had barbarian prereqs. For what it sounds like you'd like to do, you'd have to talk your DM into sprinkling a little Fairy Dust over your fighter so that in the morning he is a barbarian and no one in the campaign seems to notice any difference. As if he always was....
I wouldn't try to follow the link to Gleemax it seems to be down at the mo.

Crow
2008-05-25, 09:02 PM
I was a bit unclear on some of the things he said. Like if you take a multiclass feat, do you get to pick which power you want from the second class, or is it predetermined? It'd be a little weird to see every fighter-wizard rocking "fireball".

SamTheCleric
2008-05-25, 09:06 PM
You get to pick your power... and you can switch it out every time you level up to the "highest level" power available to you. At least, that's how I read it in the original Multiclassing preview.

Crow
2008-05-25, 09:07 PM
You get to pick your power... and you can switch it out every time you level up to the "highest level" power available to you. At least, that's how I read it in the original Multiclassing preview.

Ok, thanks. I was getting a little scared for a minute there.

wodan46
2008-05-25, 09:11 PM
Regular Multiclassing Works like this
1. Take initial multiclassing feat for class, get a weakened version of a class feature (sneak attack as an encounter power, healing word as a daily). There are specific feats you take for this.
2. Give up a power from your initial class, take a power from the second class. There is a feat for taking an encounter power, a utility, and a daily, requiring you to reach levels 4, 8, and 10 respectively first. These feats are not associated with specific powers, you make the choice. You can take each of these feats once, according to what this article seems to be implying. (you don't have that many encounter/utility/daily powers anyway).

Agh, ninja'd.

Anyways, ya, you swap out old and weak powers for new and better ones, and do the same with feats.

Jarlax
2008-05-25, 10:08 PM
and thats the fun of it IMO, that your multiclass grows with the rest of your class powers. and that you don't have to go for a full multiclass but can dip to the level that suits your build best.

for example when making my fighter/warlord. at-will, utility and daily powers for my multiclass do not appeal to me. what i am looking for is to take a 2 feat dip (the warlord multiclass feat and encounter power feat) so that i can use a warlord encounter power on my fighter.

i am not looking for a full merge of the fighter and warlord classes, just the ability to "mark" my target and follow up with something like warlords favor, which will give my flanking rouge a bonus to hit and the security of knowing our target will take negatives to attack him due to being marked.

Draz74
2008-05-25, 10:47 PM
Wow. Reading through the linked thread on Gleemax just gave me a whole new appreciation for how civil people usually are on these forums. That thread -- which is still going -- is full of more flaming and hate than some of The Playground's threads that get locked very quickly. The poking fun of Giacomo on the giant Giamonk thread, which is on the edgier side for this Forum, is positively 100% jovial by comparison.

Thank you, Roland St.Jude and the other mods! And Rich for starting the whole thing!

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-25, 11:18 PM
Wow. Reading through the linked thread on Gleemax just gave me a whole new appreciation for how civil people usually are on these forums. That thread -- which is still going -- is full of more flaming and hate than some of The Playground's threads that get locked very quickly. The poking fun of Giacomo on the giant Giamonk thread, which is on the edgier side for this Forum, is positively 100% jovial by comparison.

Thank you, Roland St.Jude and the other mods! And Rich for starting the whole thing!

At least its not 4chan :smallbiggrin:

Vortling
2008-05-26, 12:24 AM
*shrug* The new multiclassing isn't to my taste. It's generally completely backwards for what I want it to do.

Isomenes
2008-05-26, 12:46 AM
*shrug* The new multiclassing isn't to my taste. It's generally completely backwards for what I want it to do.

I might have missed this in other threads; how would you prefer multiclassing work so that it suits your goals? Is it a safe assumption that multiclassing goals include adding features from several "classes" to create a unique flavor while maximizing utility? The new system seems to address that fairly well. (This from a more or less ambivalent supporter of both 3R and 4E.)

TheOOB
2008-05-26, 02:26 AM
While I think I'll miss the ability to freely decide what class I take when, I think this system will ultimately work better. By just taking one or two feats you gain a nice, useful splash of a new class without hurting your main classes really at all(plus it should be mentioned that the multi class feats allow you to qualify for feats and paragon paths of your new class), and by taking all four feats you gain a good amount of power in your new class, losing some of your ability in your main class(though your main class will always be the most important part of your character).

If you are willing to give up your paragon path(and all those fun unique abilities) you can do a few cool things. That can be your only multiclass, giving you good abilities without giving up anything of your main class, you can triple multiclass, or you can even use the paragon path and the feats on the same class, making your second class almost as important to your character as the first, creating a true hybrid.

The biggest up side: you really don't have to worry about caster levels and such.

holywhippet
2008-05-26, 06:19 PM
Wow. Reading through the linked thread on Gleemax just gave me a whole new appreciation for how civil people usually are on these forums. That thread -- which is still going -- is full of more flaming and hate than some of The Playground's threads that get locked very quickly. The poking fun of Giacomo on the giant Giamonk thread, which is on the edgier side for this Forum, is positively 100% jovial by comparison.

Thank you, Roland St.Jude and the other mods! And Rich for starting the whole thing!

It's a simple matter of what the posters can get away with. If they aren't slapped with a suspension or a ban after accusing someone of having inappropriate relations with a goat for example then they will keep up that kind of behaviour.

I'm liking the looks of 4th edition multiclassing. It's not like 3rd edition where you kind of charge through multiclassing like a viking through a peasant village ie. grabbing all the good stuff and leaving everything you aren't interested in. From what I understand, in order for you to improve your character by taking abilities from another class, you have to weaken your character by surrendering abilities from your current class.

JaxGaret
2008-05-26, 08:36 PM
I will say that I see two problems with the way that 4e handles multiclassing:

1) Using feats to multiclass means that you can't use those feats on other, possibly more useful options, since multiclass feats only swap out class features for other, similar class features.

2) Since, theoretically, striker/controller powers should be generally stronger than defender/leader powers*, it will benefit a defender/leader to multiclass into striker/controller classes more than vice versa.

* The reason for this being that basically the only inherent difference between all of the classes, besides powers, is HP/Healing Surges (and class features), and Defenders get the best of those, with Leaders 2nd, Strikers 3rd, and Controllers 4th. It's possible that the lower HP/Surge classes will get the best class features, so that every class' powers will be even across the board, if they're all balanced properly.

Feel free to replace Defender/Leader above with "high HP/Surge classes", and Striker/Controller with "low HP/Surge classes".


But other than those two significant issues, I like the system. It's simple, easy to implement, and works.