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de-trick
2008-05-25, 09:33 PM
I decided to see the gold price of VoP

{table=head]Level |abilty | magic item| wealth
1| AC +4 | bracers of armor +4| 16000
2|
3| endure elements, AC +5 | Boots of the Winterlands, bracers of armor | 2500gp, 25000
4| exalted strike +1 | +1 weapon | 2000gp
5| substance|ring of substance,| 2500gp,
6|AC +6, defection +1| , ring of protection, bracers of armor| 2000gp, 36000gp
7|resistance +1, + 2 ability | resistance, wonderous item | 1000gp, 4000gp
8| natural armor +1, mind shielding | amulet of natural armor, ring of mind shielding |2000gp, 8000gp
9| AC +7 | bracers of armor | 49 000 gp
10| exalted strike + 2, damage reduction | +2 weapon | 8000gp
11| ability 4/2 | wonderous item 4/2 | 1600gp, 4000gp
12| AC +8, defection +2| bracers of armor, ring of protection | 64,000gp, 8000gp
13 |resistance +2 energy resististance 5| clock of resistance | 4000gp
14 | exalted strike +3 | +3 weapon | 18,000gp
[/table]

Not breathing, higher +'s for bracers of armor, damage reduction, energy resistance for all, and exalted feats,

finished first half will work on this later

if anyone has any suggestions for magic items please post

ps if i cant post this information please PM me saying so and I will take it down ASAP

Gralamin
2008-05-25, 09:39 PM
I decided to see the gold price of VoP

{table=head]Level |abilty | magic item| wealth
1| AC +4 |
3| endure elements | Boots of the Winterlands | 2500gp
4| exalted strike +1 | +1 weapon | 2000gp
5|AC +5, substance| ,ring of substance | 2500gp
6|AC +6, defection +1| , ring of protection | 2000gp
7|resistance +1, + 2 ability | resistance, wonderous item | 1000gp, 4000gp
8| natural armor +1, mind shielding | amulet of natural armor, |2000gp
9| AC +7
10| exalted strike + 2 | +2 weapon | 8000gp
11| ability 4/2 | wonderous item 4/2 | 1600gp, 4000gp

[/table]

need a item to replace the undefined AC bonus, mind shielding, and exalted feats,

finished first half will work on this later

if anyone has any suggestions for magic items please post

ps if i cant post this information please PM me saying so and I will take it down ASAP

For AC use Bracers of Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#bracersofArmor). For the +4 that is 16,000 gp, +5 25,000 gp, +6 36,000 gp and for the +7 that is 49,000 gp. (Formula for price: 1000X^2, where X is the bonus)

Under Level 11, your forgetting a 0 in the 16,000 for the +4.

Xefas
2008-05-25, 09:40 PM
A 50gp Chain Shirt replicates +4 AC
600gp for Half Plate replicates +7 AC

Since you can't wear armor with VoP, I assume that AC bonus is meant to replace the AC you'd be getting from wearing armor.

Of course, if you're using an Unarmed Swordsage or Druid, which don't require armor, and are thus generally better candidates for VoP, the AC could be compared to Bracers of Armor.

+4 is 16,000
+7 is 49,000

So it depends if you're using VoP on an armor-wearing class or non-armor-wearing class.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 09:44 PM
Mind Shielding can be gotten with a Third Eye Conceal (its in the psionics item section of the SRD), but it will cost you over a hundred K.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-25, 09:45 PM
Why not just a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding) - 8,000.

Gralamin
2008-05-25, 09:46 PM
A 50gp Chain Shirt replicates +4 AC
600gp for Half Plate replicates +7 AC

Since you can't wear armor with VoP, I assume that AC bonus is meant to replace the AC you'd be getting from wearing armor.

Of course, if you're using an Unarmed Swordsage or Druid, which don't require armor, and are thus generally better candidates for VoP, the AC could be compared to Bracers of Armor.

+4 is 16,000
+7 is 49,000

So it depends if you're using VoP on an armor-wearing class or non-armor-wearing class.

I would argue to use the cost of Bracers of Armor anyway, as its halfway in between armor and Bracers of Armor: It does not apply to incorporeal touch attacks or touch attacks, but does apply against Brilliant Energy. It also doesn't have a maximum Dex bonus, Armor Check penalty or Arcane spell failure that is associated with armor.


Why not just a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding) - 8,000.

Best to use this, as its exactly what the corresponding ability does.

The Necroswanso
2008-05-25, 09:50 PM
That's pretty neat. me and my friend earlier were having a discussion about Warforged's and how through the use of a feat at our level 2 game, they were getting bonuses that would normally cost 16,600.

@Xefas: I think OP is calculating it as if it were the magical items, not armor. Much like using a monk and taking VoP.

Talya
2008-05-25, 09:50 PM
need a item to replace the undefined AC bonus,

As has been stated, the AC bonus is an armor bonus, and is equivalent to bracers of armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor) (in that it doesn't count as wearing armor, or restrict dexterity or mobility in any way.)



mind shielding

Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding)


exalted feats

I wish I knew of guidelines for costs to add a feat to a peice of equipment.

Chronos
2008-05-25, 10:21 PM
I wish I knew of guidelines for costs to add a feat to a peice of equipment.There are a few items that give you feats: The only ones that come to mind are Nightsticks (which give Extra Turning) and one of the Ioun Stones which gives Alertness and costs 10,000 GP. I think that Nightsticks are only around half of that, though (despite being considered a much more valuable feat), so that's not a very useful guideline. Meanwhile, a Scabbard of Keen Edges is mostly equivalent to Improved Critical, except that it isn't limited to one specific weapon, and there are a few things which stack with the feat but not the item, and it's 16,000 GP.

The real sticker is that not all feats are worth the same amount. Nimbus of Light, for instance, is worth about 25 GP, that being the cost of a casting of Continual Flame. On the other hand, it's a prerequisite for a few other exalted feats which aren't quite so worthless. And any character will relatively quickly run out of exalted feats useful for that particular character.

sonofzeal
2008-05-25, 10:27 PM
I'd say 5,000 for a feat sounds reasonable as an approximation.

Douglas
2008-05-25, 11:18 PM
My pricing suggestions:
I'd price Sustenance by the Everlasting Rations in the Magic Item Compendium - the Vow's benefit is only for food and water, not reduced rest. Price: 350 gp

Exalted Strike (good) is the difference between a lesser and a least Fiendslaying Crystal, which is 2000 gp.

DR 5/magic = +1 armor of invulnerability = 16000 gp.

Greater Sustenance is actually a little inferior to the Necklace of Adaptation, 9000 gp.

Energy Resistance 5 = 2.5 Rings of Minor Energy Resistance = 30000

Freedom of Movement = Ring of Freedom of Movement = 40000

DR 5/evil = Mantle of Faith = 76000

Regeneration = Ring of Regeneration = 90000

True Seeing = Hathran Mask of True Seeing (from Unapproachable East) = 75000

DR 10/evil = ?

Energy Resistance 15 = 5x Ring of Minor/Moderate Energy Resistance = 100000

If you add it all up, it does come up to a reasonably impressive total. However, quite a bit of it is dependent on the AC bonus being equated to bracers of armor rather than the vastly cheaper (and usually just as good) magical armor. Also, the Ring of Regeneration is one of the most overpriced items ever published in my opinion, the energy resistance also isn't really worth that much, DR/magic is virtually meaningless, the Mantle of Faith also costs more than I think it's worth, and Mind Shielding is little more than flavor in most circumstances.

Fizban
2008-05-26, 12:49 AM
I'd say 5,000 for a feat sounds reasonable as an approximation.

Umm, no. Assuming it's not just a piddly skill bonus, prices start at 10,000gp and go up. The Arms and Equipment Guide suggests 20-25k for most feats, with adjustment depending on the individual feat.

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 01:07 AM
"Exalted Feat" is a very limited concept (and let's face it, most of them are fairly crappy never-do-anythings), so as normal games don't allow Chaos Shuffle (or any games, really), they should be somewhat cheaper than normal feats, or even Fighter-feats. You could probably use Heroics (the 2nd level spell that grants you a Fighter-feat of your choice; it isn't a predetermined feat you get so the price should be about same as that of an Exalted Feat, mayhap a bit higher - use your judgment) made into a permanent Magic item as a guideline.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-26, 01:43 AM
Depends a lot on the feat. Nymph's Kiss is pretty much a +20 skill item at level 20. The +1 damage v. evil, +1d4 v. evil outsiders feats is probably appx. equal to .5 of a bane enhancement.

Kantolin
2008-05-26, 01:47 AM
Of course, if you're using an Unarmed Swordsage or Druid, which don't require armor, and are thus generally better candidates for VoP, the AC could be compared to Bracers of Armor.

Alternately, for the Druid at least as I don't know swordsage mechanics, the monk's belt is a quick pop for pretty comparable and scaling armour.

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 01:47 AM
The value must be set for an average feat, not for the best nor for the worst of them. Really, to accurately price one Exalted Feat, first of all, the first should be the most expensive and they should get subsequently cheaper as you're forced to take worse and worse feats. Since that's not really doable as the price has to be set for an open feat slot (that is, for the possibility), which could become anything, so the price has to represent the price of an average Exalted feat, which is probably about the same as an average Fighter-feat.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-26, 06:01 AM
Not breathing, higher +'s for bracers of armor, damage reduction, energy resistance for all, and exalted feats,
Not breathing: Necklace of Adaptation would be the closest... although that also makes you immune to vapors and gases, which the exalted bit doesn't. Call it 4,500 gp?

Higher +'s: I'd be more inclined to price it out as an enchanted chain shirt - 100 gp base, becoming 1,250 when it hits +5, 4,250 at +6, 9,250 at +7, 16,250 at +8, 25,250 at +9. For higher +'s than that, change the base armor type, and add Mithral. So at +10, price it as +5 Mithral Breastplate (29,200 gp) - there's no real exact match, but that's probably good enough.

Damage Reduction: Check out Adamantine armor add-on. Gives you DR 1/-, 2/-, or 3/- for 5,000, 10,000, or 15,000, respectively.

Energy Resistance: A ring of Minor Energy Resistance (10, for a specific element) costs 12,000 gp. Making that 5 vs. all would probably cost a similar amount (although the rings of energy resistance don't follow the standard scaling A*B^2 scaling).

Exalted Feats: Their mechanical effect varies, a lot. You're on your own, there.

Talya
2008-05-26, 06:33 AM
Depends a lot on the feat. Nymph's Kiss is pretty much a +20 skill item at level 20. The +1 damage v. evil, +1d4 v. evil outsiders feats is probably appx. equal to .5 of a bane enhancement.

If you take it at level 1, it's +23 to a skill, and don't forget +1 stacking to all saves.

Armads
2008-05-26, 06:36 AM
It's only +23 to a skill that you have zero ranks in. That's a lot weaker than +23 to any skill.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 06:40 AM
You know what's the funny thing?

The +8 stat boost numbers in the millions when bought from an item, but it doesn't save most classes from being completely worthless under VoP.

Talya
2008-05-26, 06:41 AM
It's only +23 to a skill that you have zero ranks in. That's a lot weaker than +23 to any skill.

No, more correctly, it's one more skill with 23 ranks in. Or, 2 more skills with +11/+12 ranks, etc. That's actually better than an item of +skill, because it gives you at least one more trained skill.

Nymph's Kiss is like getting the human bonus to skill points, (again if you're already human), in addition to a +1 stacking bonus to all saves.



You know what's the funny thing?

The +8 stat boost numbers in the millions when bought from an item, but it doesn't save most classes from being completely worthless under VoP.


"Useless" is a great exaggeration, (unless you're one of those very bad rules lawyers who thinks you can't carry a holy symbol or spellbook as a wizard or cleric with VoP). However, yes, for many classes it's a very bad idea, overall.

Armads
2008-05-26, 06:43 AM
You know what's the funny thing?

The +8 stat boost numbers in the millions when bought from an item, but it doesn't save most classes from being completely worthless under VoP.

They're only worth that much because Epic pricing rules are stupid.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 06:45 AM
Armads: Great minds think alike, heh.

Talya: Rephrase: Useless, except for Raptoran Swordsages. Happy now? :smalltongue:

Talya
2008-05-26, 06:50 AM
Armads: Great minds think alike, heh.

Talya: Rephrase: Useless, except for Raptoran Swordsages. Happy now? :smalltongue:

Or nude sublime chords? (See sig.)

Anyway, my issue was with "Useless." Most of the things you "lose" can be compensated for by your party.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 06:54 AM
Or nude sublime chords? (See sig.)

Anyway, my issue was with "Useless." Most of the things you "lose" can be compensated for by your party.

Useless, D&D definition: Can't accomplish things by itself; Can't make it alone.

No, that last one wasn't a BoEF joke.

sikyon
2008-05-26, 07:03 AM
A key problem, perhaps the key problem, with VoP is the loss of flexibility. What makes the wizard so strong? A massive selections of solutions to any problem he might face. Same goes here. The lack of ability to select what you want hugely hampers you.

VoP isn't that weak, it's just inflexible to the extreme. If you meet a challenge, ie. a flying monster with ranged attacks, you are somewhat screwed. Sure you can use a sling but the monster can just fly away if it gets seriously wounded.

Therefore VoP is more valuable to some classes than other ones, the same way a corresponding set of magic items would be more valuable to one class than another.

That being said, it's not a bad choice for druids.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:10 AM
A key problem, perhaps the key problem, with VoP is the loss of flexibility. What makes the wizard so strong? A massive selections of solutions to any problem he might face. Same goes here. The lack of ability to select what you want hugely hampers you.

VoP isn't that weak, it's just inflexible to the extreme. If you meet a challenge, ie. a flying monster with ranged attacks, you are somewhat screwed. Sure you can use a sling but the monster can just fly away if it gets seriously wounded.

Therefore VoP is more valuable to some classes than other ones, the same way a corresponding set of magic items would be more valuable to one class than another.

That being said, it's not a bad choice for druids.

Or mystic swordsages. That said, Monkey Grip is a good choice for a mystic swordsage.

Talya
2008-05-26, 07:13 AM
Monkey Grip is a good choice for a mystic swordsage.

That's crazy talk.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:27 AM
That's crazy talk.

Even Toughness or Dilligent are good choices for the guy who can spend life in a time stop. Put simply, You're so good any choice is a good choice, even those that would completely gimp other characters.

UserClone
2008-05-26, 07:46 AM
Nymph's Kiss gives you only 1 skill point per level, with no [email protected], which is three less than a human's bonus, IIRC. So 20 points by 20th level. [/nitpick]

Talya
2008-05-26, 09:02 AM
Nymph's Kiss gives you only 1 skill point per level, with no [email protected], which is three less than a human's bonus, IIRC. So 20 points by 20th level. [/nitpick]

If you took it at level 1, it would be subject to the same x4 multiplier that every other skill bonus per level gets. The total number of skills you get per level is multiplied by 4 at level 1. I don't see where Nymph's Kiss explicitly exempts it from this...

Chronos
2008-05-26, 11:39 AM
Nymph's Kiss is definitely worth less than a +20 (or +23, whatever) item of a skill. With a +20 item, I can spend one real rank on a skill (if it's a trained-only; don't even bother if it can be used untrained) and end up being totally competent in it; that's about the same as the feat's benefit. On the other hand, I can also use a +20 item with a skill that I already have a bunch of ranks in, and go from "totally compentent" to "completely absolutely awesome", and I can't do that with Nymph's Kiss.

And the +8 stat bonus isn't worth epic prices. Remember, you don't have to get all that from a single item: You could also get a +6 enhancement item, and then add a +2 tome. Or, for that matter, a +5 tome, if the ability score is really important to you, an option which isn't available under the Vow.

marjan
2008-05-26, 12:38 PM
And the +8 stat bonus isn't worth epic prices. Remember, you don't have to get all that from a single item: You could also get a +6 enhancement item, and then add a +2 tome. Or, for that matter, a +5 tome, if the ability score is really important to you, an option which isn't available under the Vow.

Not quite. That +8 can also be combined with inherent bonus of +5 with use of Miracle.Though, it's quite unlikely that a character with VoP will find a way to do it.

sonofzeal
2008-05-26, 12:45 PM
Not quite. That +8 can also be combined with inherent bonus of +5 with use of Miracle.Though, it's quite unlikely that a character with VoP will find a way to do it.
1) Take out a MASSIVE loan from your epic level pal
2) Buy a +5 tome
3) Read said tome BEFORE taking VoP
4) Pray the gods don't smite you for your munchkinness
5) ???
6) Get smote anyway

Jack_Simth
2008-05-26, 01:03 PM
1) Take out a MASSIVE loan from your epic level pal
2) Buy a +5 tome
3) Read said tome BEFORE taking VoP
4) Pray the gods don't smite you for your munchkinness
5) ???
6) Get smote anyway

The Tome/Manual is not the only way to go about getting a +5 inherent bonus to a stat.

Take, for instance, a Vow of Poverty Sorcerer who takes Wish as a spell known at 18th. Due to a lot of fighting, the Sorcerer ends up looking at a 10,000 xp excess in getting to 19th - and instead of leveling to 19th, casts Wish five times in quick succession (expending 25,000 xp) for the inherent bonus - +5 to any one stat - done. This is actually explicitly permitted, provided you catch it before you do the leveling.

Said Sorcerer could instead take Gate, and Gate in two Noble Dijinni, and order them to use their 1/day "grant 3 wishes" ability - six Wishes in rapid succession, for 2,000 xp, netting a +5 Inherent bonus to one stat and a spare Wish (+1 to another stat?) - again, done, although this time with cheese.

Talya
2008-05-26, 01:21 PM
The Tome/Manual is not the only way to go about getting a +5 inherent bonus to a stat.

Take, for instance, a Vow of Poverty Sorcerer who takes Wish as a spell known at 18th. Due to a lot of fighting, the Sorcerer ends up looking at a 10,000 xp excess in getting to 19th - and instead of leveling to 19th, casts Wish five times in quick succession (expending 25,000 xp) for the inherent bonus - +5 to any one stat - done. This is actually explicitly permitted, provided you catch it before you do the leveling.

Said Sorcerer could instead take Gate, and Gate in two Noble Dijinni, and order them to use their 1/day "grant 3 wishes" ability - six Wishes in rapid succession, for 2,000 xp, netting a +5 Inherent bonus to one stat and a spare Wish (+1 to another stat?) - again, done, although this time with cheese.

Other ways:

(1) Your paladin friend owns the tome. He holds the tome. You never touch the tome. But every day, he flips a page, and asks you to read it. (Other people are allowed to use magic items for you.

(2) As part of the VOP, you are required to take your share of the loot and donate it to charity. Churches and temples are charity. Donations to churches and temples, as per BoED rules (which we're using, since we're using VoP), build up goodwill for you. You can use that goodwill to call in services. It's entirely possible for you to donate the cost of having wish cast upon you 5 times in rapid succession. (Likely by a local cleric gating noble djinnis, yes.)

(3) You aren't a spellcaster. The party wizard/sorcerer/cleric casts gate twice. Gates in two noble djinnis, and tells them to grant you 5 wishes (and keeps the 6th for himself.) As noted, this only costs 2000xp, and a party crafter would spend far more than that equipping you if you didn't have VoP, so he likely doesn't mind. You are exalted-good comrades in arms, after all.

Chronos
2008-05-26, 02:32 PM
Take, for instance, a Vow of Poverty Sorcerer who takes Wish as a spell known at 18th. Due to a lot of fighting, the Sorcerer ends up looking at a 10,000 xp excess in getting to 19th - and instead of leveling to 19th, casts Wish five times in quick succession (expending 25,000 xp) for the inherent bonus - +5 to any one stat - done. This is actually explicitly permitted, provided you catch it before you do the leveling.And how does an 18th level sorcerer with no equipment cast Wish five times in immediate succession?


(1) Your paladin friend owns the tome. He holds the tome. You never touch the tome. But every day, he flips a page, and asks you to read it. (Other people are allowed to use magic items for you.Either you're using the tome, in which case you've broken your vow, or your friend is using it, in which case he gets the bonus.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-26, 02:50 PM
And how does an 18th level sorcerer with no equipment cast Wish five times in immediate succession?

Nitpicking much? Okay, so we use the 19th-20th bridge, rather than 18th-19th.


Either you're using the tome, in which case you've broken your vow, or your friend is using it, in which case he gets the bonus.
... or a friend casts Wish a few times on your behalf (you can receive the benefits of spells cast by another), or uses a few scrolls of Wish on your behalf (likewise). The Increase Ability Score safe function of Wish is not restricted to Personal range.

monty
2008-05-26, 03:10 PM
If you meet a challenge, ie. a flying monster with ranged attacks, you are somewhat screwed. Sure you can use a sling but the monster can just fly away if it gets seriously wounded.

Or you could just play a caster that can cast Fly, or play a race with natural flight (Raptoran is nice there).

Talya
2008-05-26, 03:40 PM
Ignoring the silly "Vow of Nudity" thing, check out the "Vow of Nudity" build in my signature for another easy way to get a +5 inherent bonus to your casting stat...

nargbop
2008-05-26, 10:15 PM
The great thing about VoP powers is that they never go away. You can't be pickpocketed for your Mind Shielding ring, your AC bonus can't be dispelled (can they? not sure), you don't have to eat or drink or breathe. You can be stuck in a dungeon underwater for a century and only need to make a couple Will saves against insanity. OK, a lot of Will saves. It's survivalist.
Pair VoP with a Druid (or is it the other one) and you are absolutely golden.

sonofzeal
2008-05-26, 10:36 PM
Pair VoP with a Druid (or is it the other one) and you are absolutely golden.
My favorite build for if you can't have good access to magic item stores - VoP Saint Monk1/Druid17. Truely ungodly (heh) AC in any form, flurry of claws, and 9th level spells. Solidly effective compared to normal WBL characters, and broken as all-get-out in a low magic game.

monty
2008-05-26, 11:25 PM
Somehow, whenever I play a VoP character, it always ends up being a cleric. Having an unbuffed AC of 26 at level 4 is nice, though.

Aquillion
2008-05-27, 06:24 PM
Another problem with adding up all the GP values is that a character who actually spent all that gold probably would probably spend some of it in more useful ways -- rings of mind shielding aren't such hot items, and your VoP sorcerer isn't getting that much out of Exalted Strike. You also have to calculate the opportunity cost of not having what would otherwise be 'essential' items for your class.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 06:28 PM
Another problem with adding up all the GP values is that a character who actually spent all that gold probably would probably spend some of it in more useful ways -- rings of mind shielding aren't such hot items, and your VoP sorcerer isn't getting that much out of Exalted Strike. You also have to calculate the opportunity cost of not having what would otherwise be 'essential' items for your class.

Exactly. A character with one million longswords has, what, 20 million gp in wealth? Somehow, I still don't think his equipment is as good as anyone who spent their WBL on useful items.