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Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 03:22 AM
Is the Battle Sorcerer class balanced when compared with non-full casting classes? I was just wondering due to how a lot of people have said the class is weak due to having such a small spell list, but I'm curious about how they compare to other classes when normal Sorceres and Wizards aren't included in the evaluation.

Zincorium
2008-05-26, 03:38 AM
I've played one, in a party with a full caster, and it worked out all right. Honestly, the best place to start comparing battle sorcerors is with bards, who aren't full spellcasters either and similarly don't fit one of the four archetypes very well.

Bards have much more skill points and a better list, a better weapon selection, and more spells known. They also have party-friendly class features, which, while minor, still dispose the party well towards them.

Battle sorcerors have a higher hit die, get higher level spells sooner and get up to 9th level eventually, more spells per day, a more varied list to pick from, and a familiar which because of it's better hit points and attack bonus is worth holding onto and improving.


The best way to use a battle sorceror is as a sort of gish, using buff spells to raise their combat ability to somewhere near fighters. They're still a bit behind at low levels, but at high levels can be very effective. Use it like a toned down fighter type and you'll probably be okay if not awesome. They're kind of like inverted duskblades.

Temp.
2008-05-26, 03:38 AM
I would put a straight-classed Battle Sorcerer a few notches above a straight-classed Psychic Warrior or Duskblade.

Even though they have limited spells, they're still throwing Draconic Polymorphs, Bites of the Werebear, Veils of Undeath and Arcane Spellsurges around.

Even without the combat support the other classes get, I would put them ahead of anything without full 9th-level spellcasting.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 03:49 AM
Thanks for telling me. If you were going to make an optimised spell list for a Battle Sorcerer, what would the list consist of? (I'll think of one myself and add it to this post later on). Also, how would you compare the class to a multiclass Fighter/Wizard or Sorcerer?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 03:53 AM
Assuming your campaign won't run to level 20 (which, let's face it, most campaigns won't), I found battle sorcerer to be subpar, compared to other gishes. Both the Duskblade and even a simple Eldritch Knight build perform better.

Temp.
2008-05-26, 04:10 AM
Assuming your campaign won't run to level 20 (which, let's face it, most campaigns won't), I found battle sorcerer to be subpar, compared to other gishes. Both the Duskblade and even a simple Eldritch Knight build perform better. It's probably worth noting that my opinions of Battle Sorcerer as a rather powerful class are drawn from a level 13-17 game. Limping along until 6th level or so would be harsh compared to doing the same with a PsyWarrior or Duskblade.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-26, 04:20 AM
Compared to non-fullcasters? Strong, after level 4 or so. It's a caster.

Compared to full casters? Really weak. You're a sorcerer losing spells known. And spendin gmost of the rest on buffs.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 04:23 AM
Thanks for the additional feedback (I never liked the idea of Eldrich Knights due to their inability to wear armour without buying Mithril stuff, or possibly needing to spend for money on another enhancement). Do you think this spell list looks descent for a Battle Sorcerer?


0
Prestigitation
Ghost Sound
Mending
Detect Magic
Caltrops
Light
Mage Hand
Read Magic

1
Colour Spray (replace with Silent Image at level 6)
Ray of Enfeeblement
True Strike
Fist of Stone

2
Glitterdust
Cloud of Bewilderment
Scorching Ray (or Alter Self)
Mirror Image (or Touch of Idiocy)

3
Stinking Cloud (replace with Mestil's Acid Breath when Freezing Fog is learnt)
Slow (or Haste)
Bands of Steel (Replace with Fly when Baleful Ploymorph is learnt)

4
Black Tentacles (or Polymorph)
Greater Invisibility (or Enervation)
Orb of Force

5
Freezing Fog
Baleful Polymorph
Cloudkill

6
Disintegrate
Greater Dispell

7
Waves of Exhaustion
Spell Turning (or Powerword: Blind)

8
Maze
Otto's Irresistable Dance

9
Maw of Chaos
Hold Monster Mass

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-26, 04:34 AM
Are you the only full caster? If not, I'd say go for spells that buff you instead of the save-based spells, especially since you can't focus on Charisma as much since you need reasonable stats for fighting.

You want Polymorph on that list. Things like Enlarge Person, Shield, and various other buffs are probably in order as well.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 04:38 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'm not actually going to be using a Battle Sorcerer (at least not at the minute), but I was curious about how effective they are (and I'm considering using one in the future). Is Shield really worthwhile, though? (I tend to see it as inferiou to Mage Armour due to how it only lasts for a few minutes rather then hours, and Magic Missile is a weak spell as far as damage output is concerned).

Solo
2008-05-26, 04:43 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'm not actually going to be using a Battle Sorcerer (at least not at the minute), but I was curious about how effective they are (and I'm considering using one in the future). Is Shield really worthwhile, though? (I tend to see it as inferiou to Mage Armour due to how it only lasts for a few minutes rather then hours, and Magic Missile is a weak spell as far as damage output is concerned).

They stack.

Plus, if you go into Abjurant Champion, you get to cast a Quickened +9 AC Extended Shield for free



Assuming your campaign won't run to level 20 (which, let's face it, most campaigns won't), I found battle sorcerer to be subpar, compared to other gishes. Both the Duskblade and even a simple Eldritch Knight build perform better.
Perhaps we could improve the BS with some finely aged gouda.

I suggest acquiring the Outsider subtype (available via Feat or race), Alter Self, and if you're in the mood for it, a wand/scrolls of Scintillating Scales.

Perhaps add in a dash of Wraithstrike if you feel like making your DM hate you even more

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 04:45 AM
* You've got Read Magic listed twice.
* Caltrops is a good cantrip, as is Acid Splash. And always take Mage Hand.
* Colour Spray is not useful at moderate-to-high level and should be retrained - so you can take both True Strike and Silent Image.
* Alter Self is a highly cheesy spell that the DM should veto. If he does not, take it. Same goes for Polymorph.
* Glitterdust is better than Blindness, for PCs at least.
* With so few spells, you need to diversify. Stinking Cloud and Solid Fog serve the same purpose, in essence, so don't take both. Find a good split between buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control.
* You don't need both Fly and Mass Fly. Buffing the rest of the party isn't a gish's job, anyway.
* Otto's is much better than GB Curse.
* Energy Drain is worse than a metamagiced Enervation.
* Your list is short on self-buffs. Why is there no Invisibility here? What about other melee-enhancing spells?
* Do you really want to be without Dispel Magic?
* The PHB2 lists a number of spells that are cast as swift actions. That means you can cast one of those and attack in the same round. Highly worth looking into.

Since you need to spend stats on melee effectiveness, your saving throw DC probably won't be as high as it would be for a "pure" caster. So try to select spells without saving throws; you're likely to make any (ranged) touch attacks required anyway.

Metamagic. Grab it, use it. It can save you valuable spell slots. If you can heighten a 2nd-level wall spell, you won't need a 3rd-level wall. And so forth. Consider ditching your familiar for the "rapid metamagic" alternative class feature.

There are a few feat chains or prestige classes that can net you additional spells known, or the equivalent in SLAs (although come to think of it, most of these won't work with the BS). This is probably a very good idea for the small list the BS gets. For instance, bloodline feats, reserve feats.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 04:56 AM
I made a couple of changes to the spell list. What are the prequisites for Abjurant Champion, and why would Acid Splash be a good choice of Cantrip? Also, what spell would you recommend in place of Fly Mass? I mainly included the Polymorph spells in brackets due to how they can be cheesed out so easily (I don't like powergaming to the point where I'm too powerful).

Would my Cha stat be that bad? With a 32 Point Buy, which is my prefered stat distribution method, I'd have Str, Dex and Con stats of 14, 10 for Int and Wis and a 16 for Cha. What level is Wraith Strike, and barring LA versions os Assamirs and Tieflings, are there any other non-LA Outsider races? Also, how can an Enervation spell be made better then Energy Drain? (I don't tend to bother with Metamagic feats due to often not seeing the cost of using them as being worthwhile).

EDIT: I found Waithstrick: http://www.imarvintpa.com/DndLive/spells.php?ID=5695 .

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 06:32 AM
I made a couple of changes to the spell list. What are the prequisites for Abjurant Champion, and why would Acid Splash be a good choice of Cantrip? Also, what spell would you recommend in place of Fly Mass? I mainly included the Polymorph spells in brackets due to how they can be cheesed out so easily (I don't like powergaming to the point where I'm too powerful).

Would my Cha stat be that bad? With a 32 Point Buy, which is my prefered stat distribution method, I'd have Str, Dex and Con stats of 14, 10 for Int and Wis and a 16 for Cha. What level is Wraith Strike, and barring LA versions os Assamirs and Tieflings, are there any other non-LA Outsider races? Also, how can an Enervation spell be made better then Energy Drain? (I don't tend to bother with Metamagic feats due to often not seeing the cost of using them as being worthwhile).

If you Empower and Split ray (for example) Enervation, you get 2d4*1.5 (Or rather 1d4*1.5 twice) levels, one spell level lower than Energy Drain, for example. Or you could Empower and Maximize, and do a guarantee 6 levels of drain at the same level.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 06:56 AM
Thanks for explaining. Looking at the rest of my spells, would Enmpower and Maximise be useful in general, or would bhey only be worthwhile once I get level 9 spell slots for Enervation? (I generally don't like using Metamagics due to the need to use higher level spell slots to use them).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:03 AM
Thanks for explaining. Looking at the rest of my spells, would Enmpower and Maximise be useful in general, or would bhey only be worthwhile once I get level 9 spell slots for Enervation? (I generally don't like using Metamagics due to the need to use higher level spell slots to use them).

They're pretty useful for anything that has rolls, such as Evard's, the orbs, and disintegrate. I'd nab Empower, then get a par of rods of maximize for whatever you need. Then, pick up another meta, such as Split ray, which is full of sweet goodz0rz, especially if you, say, combine it with Disintegrate.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 07:11 AM
Thanks. What other feat choices would you recommend? I was planning on taking Longbow proficiency so that I could use a Composite Longbow as my main weapon. Also, which spell would you recommend in place of Mass Fly? I was thinking about Arc of Lightning. Also, in cases where there's an "or" option, which spell would you say is better?

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 07:14 AM
If you plan on spending a feat on weapon, might as well make it Exotic. Really though, Gishes tend to do best with two-handed power attacking since they get tons of To Hit-bonuses.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 07:21 AM
Battle Sorcerers are only slightly better in the frontline then Bards, so I didn't really want to rely on melee combat that much. Are Repeating Crossbows that good?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:25 AM
Thanks. What other feat choices would you recommend? I was planning on taking Longbow proficiency so that I could use a Composite Longbow as my main weapon. Also, which spell would you recommend in place of Mass Fly? I was thinking about Arc of Lightning. Also, in cases where there's an "or" option, which spell would you say is better?

:smalleek: Wasting a feat on longbows? Think about that statement! That's worse than Monkey Grip!

Well, First off, I'd replace Mass fly with overland flight. It's MUCH more useful.

Then, I'd chuck Acid Fog, hold monster mass, and Waves of exhaustion. Replace those with Forceful Hand/Greater Dispel Magic, Time Stop/Shades/Maw of Chaos, Finger of Death/simulacrum/PW: Blind/Prismatic Spray/Limited Wish.

Also get rid of Incendiary Cloud for Maze/Shadow Evocation/PaO, and hold monster for Feeblemind or Cloudkill.

Finally, dump Cloud of Bewilderment for Shatter or Mirror image.

That, combined with Enervation and possibly phantasmal assailants, should be enough to kill nearly anything.

PS: Oh, and try to get Dispel Magic, the small version, because that + Shatter is instant death for items (And by extension, any meleers and Undead, if they're affected).

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 07:30 AM
What does Simulacrum do? (Also, don't forget that I'm trying to avoid things which are too overpowered, so Time Stop's definitly not a good choice here). Is Limited Wish that good? I know it would give me a lot more versatility, but I probably wouldn't use it very often due to its Exp. cost. Also, what's wrong with spending a feat to get Longbow proficiency? Also, considering how the targets get aWill save to reduce damage from Shadow spells, is Shadow Evocation really worth it (I wouldn't bother with Prismatic Spray due to it's random effect, but Maw of Chaos is pretty good), and what does PoA stand for? I don't get why you'd recommend Maze over Incendry Cloud either.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:34 AM
What does Simulacrum do? (Also, don't forget that I'm trying to avoid things which are too overpowered, so Time Stop's definitly not a good choice here). Is Limited Wish that good? I know it would give me a lot more versatility, but I probably wouldn't use it very often due to its Exp. cost. Also, what's wrong with spending a feat to get Longbow proficiency? Also, considering how the targets get aWill save to reduce damage from Shadow spells, is Shadow Evocation really worth it?

In order:

A) You get a second you, which means double the buffs and more. Think of the uses (Solo will say the best use is a threesome with your wife without any other participants, heh. :smalltongue:).

B) Time Stop is not overpowered. It is simply REALLY useful.

C) Yes, it is. Versatility is what you need desperately, and you get the experience back anyway.

D) You have orb of sound. You don't NEED a ranged weapon!

E) The trick is to use it to get no save spells. Who cares if they disbelieve it, Wind Wall still kills any ranged attack!

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 07:37 AM
Thanks (I added a couple of questions to my last post). I don't honeslty like the idea of being entirely reliant on the Orb spells (especially since I would retrain LOoS once I got OoF).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:43 AM
Don't even worry about that. You are not going to fling too many orbs around, because you're gonna be flying, and if an enemy tries to range you, you wind wall it.

Now, new questions:

A) Prismatic spell is amazing. Two of the effects, do excellent damage, four of them are autowins. Really, if you have the space, take it, or lug a scroll or two around.


B) It's PaO, Polymorph any Object. I think you know what it's capable of.

C) Because Maze disables a target for quite a few rounds, enough to either sneak out of the place you are at, or prepare things to kick the crap out of the foe.

Solo
2008-05-26, 07:45 AM
Battle Sorcerers are only slightly better in the frontline then Bards, so I didn't really want to rely on melee combat that much. Are Repeating Crossbows that good?

Jack the BattleBard(tm) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=55571)

In progress, for a game I'm going to play in which I shall playtest the concept.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-26, 07:46 AM
Jack the BattleBard(tm) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=55571)

In progress, for a game I'm going to play in which I shall playtest the concept.

Bards can't be lawful... :smalleek:

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 07:46 AM
Thanks (admittedly, I tend to hate spells with random effects, and I don't like the idea of spending higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells). Wouldn't catching enermies in an Incendry Cloud also stop them from attacking you (unless they have Dimention Hop/Door ot Teleport), and isn't PaO one of the cheesiest spells in the game? (Maze doesn't strike me as being that good due to how it only targets 1 creature).

(I'll read about the Battle Bard later thanks. I was refering to normal Bards when I made that comment.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 07:50 AM
Thanks (admittedly, I tend to hate spells with random effects, and I don't like the idea of spending higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells). Wouldn't catching enermies in an Incendry Cloud also stop them from attacking you (unless they have Dimention Hop/Door ot Teleport), and isn't PaO one of the cheesiest spells in the game? (Maze doesn't strike me as being that good due to how it only targets 1 creature).

(I'll read about the Battle Bard later thanks. I was refering to normal Bards when I made that comment.)

You already have Solid Fog. You don't need a new version. And yes, PaO is b0rked, why d'you think I'm suggesting it? But yeah, Maze is amazing, because it takes out a monster, guaranteed.

The Mormegil
2008-05-26, 07:56 AM
Battle Sorcerers are strong. Really, they ARE. This is mainly for two reasons:

1) They could be casters as well as gishes. Yeah, not on par of any true caster,but even then, with some broken pells you may do anything.

2) They MULTICLASS.

I mean, I know a wizard/EK/Abjurant Champion is better than a Battle Sorcerer, but men, a Battle Sorcerer/EK/Abjurant Champion has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Not talking about the Battle Sorcerer that dips into IotSV for protection...

And also, who said they are weak at low levels? Grab a greatsword, take Stone Fist and a high strength, you will ROCK with your +7 on attacks and +10 on damage... you need only a round buffing...

Now, another good tip: be an Illumian (Races of Destiny). They gain the ability to base spells per day (not DC, but who cares? You're going to buff, not kill) on Strength or Dexterity, as well as a nice CL boost. They lose the Human bonus feat, but, I mean...

On feats, I may suggest the two gish "classical" metamagics (for me, at least): Retributive Spell (Complete Mage) and Smiting Spell (PHB2).
The first allows you to cast a spell you choose as an immediate action against a target that hit you in melee within an hour from when you choose the spell (one at a time) for a mere +1 bonus.
The latter does what it says, you place a spell on your weapon, it affects next target you hit. Also +1, lasts one hour.

I would grab the PHB2 variant sorcerer and use Quicken as much as I can. I may even use a greater Int than Cha...

Then, of course, TAKE PERSISTENT!! You will regret it if you didn't.

On spells, I exprienced a few good ones that aren't on your spell list.

I'll post a list below:

0 - cantrips, bah... grab prestidigitation and acid splatter and mage armor, mostly for fun. Also, I never travel with my "faithful comrades" withut marking my stuff with an Arcane Mark.

1 - some useful stuff here: take Enlarge Person for reach and a size and strength bonus. Take Shield and maybe Protection form Evil (you wear armor, so no need to waste a spell on mage armor). Take Expeditous retreat for charging fast and jumping over enemies (if you jump high enough, you may be out of reach for AoOs). I make use of True Strike, Critical Hit and Burning blades (SC, swift action, 1 rnd duration, bonus damage; burning blades deals more damage than Critical Hit, but it is fire damage and Critical Hit doubles threat range). Nerveskitter gives a +5 initiative for a 1st level slot, which is nice, and provides a good Contingency trigger, which is awesome. Also, TAKE STONE FIST, really it's mandatory. +6 Str at level 1 is absurd and at higher levels you may persist it for great effects.

2 - Invisibility is a must, as is See Invisibility and Glitterdust. You may want scrolls of the latter ones anyway. Bull's Strength is useless: it lasts longer than Stone Fist, but if you cannot take out enemies within one minute... you are in trouble. I may think about Swift Flight (Alter Self is better, but I personally ban it). Flavor and useful spells are also False Life (meh...), Bladeweave and Burning Blade (both on SC). If you feel like cheating, (Persistent) Wraithstrike is wonderful, especially with a medium Bab Power Attacker. If you took Smiting, you wont's regret taking Combust (10d8 cap!!!).
But what you need most is a precious SC pearl: Heroics. Yeah, Heroics.

3 - Here comes some juicy juicy things. Dispel Magic comes first. Haste is what you will always, always need, as well as Flight (exchange it at level 10-12 if you grab Overland Flight, which isn't a bad idea). Arcane Sight is pretty useful for many things, and it works as well as See Invisiblity as far as invisible creatures are concerned (some may argue that you still hae 50% miss chance, but what the hell is worth Glitterdust then?). Displacement is great (if it works, which kinda never happens in my group), and this level has also the wonderful Dragonskin (CL +1 for sorcerers!). Some nice buffs (especially for a crit-based character, Falchion-wielding for example) are Weapon of Energy and Keen Edge. The rest is Slow and/or Stinking Cloud.

4 - Evard's Black Tentacles is a great mass controlling spell, as is Solid Fog, but you are a Battle Sorcerer. Buffing with Greater Invisibility and Polymorph if it isn't banned comes before. Also I love using Channeled Pyroburst in his lesser version: swift 10d4 ray attack is nice for a 4th level spell slot...
And then, the greatest defensive buff EVER: Greater Mirror Image (PHB2). Explains itself.

5 - Overland Flight is a great buff, I would take Forcewall because it always come handy. Draconic Polymorph is a nice buff and the Bites start to come around. But the spell you really, really want is Lesser Spell Matrix. A swift buff for 1d6 damages is... beautiful. Also Arcane Fusion gives two buffs as a standard action... A great, great buff is Indomiability: when you are going to die, you instead are at 1hp for a whole round. Discharges after first use.

6 - There you have Greater Dispel Magic. AMF. Disintegration. Repulsion. Greater Heroism. Brilliant Blade. And a tiny, tiny, forgotten broken spell in the Complete Mage that is just for you: Karmic Retribution. Casting time swift. 1 rnd/lvl. Each and every time you are hit, enemies make a Will save or are stunned for one whole round... Lethal. It doesn't need high DCs, it will probably work only on a natural 1 but who cares when you are hit 20+ times each fight? Bite of the Weretiger starts being awesome, but the next is better yet.
I will take Contingency also, to use with a buff and the condition "when I enter melee with a target" or similar. "When I use Nerveskitter" is also quite good.

7 - Touch of the Graveborn is something I keep track of... as well as Bite of the Werebear! +16 Str! +8 Con!
Greater Ironguard (SC) is overwhelming against many fighting guys, which are going to deal you absolutely no damage without even knowing why!
At this level you have access to Greater Arcane Fusion and, better yet, Spell Matrix, which are better than their lesser counterparts.
Make use of Greater Arcane Sight, if you wish. And I like Smiting Finger of Death, too.

8 - Smiting Otto's Irresistible Dance is something you will abuse, as well as the Retributive one!!! You may want Moment of Prescience and Mind Blank, but I would think about Prismatic Wall...

9 - oh, so many to take! But remember always: you need time to buff first, and ways to keep casters at bay while doing it second. So Time Stop, and Effulgent Epuration (SC, awesome). Pretty much all you need.


The only problem with Battle Sorcerers is that they need feats to work... and they ain't any bonus ones!!! But Heroics is there for it.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 08:00 AM
Thanks for explaining. Looking at the rest of my spells, would Enmpower and Maximise be useful in general, or would bhey only be worthwhile once I get level 9 spell slots for Enervation?
Take either, but not both. Consider Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, and especially Quicken Spell. Actions are the currency of combat, and quickening means you get to do more; that's always good. Easy Metamagic is also nice (reduces a MM feat by 1 level); Arcane Thesis also works but I would personally consider that way too cheesy (not to mention that it pushes you into one-trick-pony territory).


(Also, don't forget that I'm trying to avoid things which are too overpowered, so Time Stop's definitly not a good choice here).
If you really want to avoid that, why exactly is the polymorph line on your list? :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 08:14 AM
why would Acid Splash be a good choice of Cantrip?
Because it does full damage to objects, e.g. locks.



Also, what spell would you recommend in place of Fly Mass?
Overland Flight. If you want to spend your 5th-level slots on something else, take Fly; buffing the rest of the party is not your job.



Would my Cha stat be that bad? With a 32 Point Buy, which is my prefered stat distribution method, I'd have Str, Dex and Con stats of 14, 10 for Int and Wis and a 16 for Cha.
Because if you're playing a gish, it pays to put greater boosts into strength. Your charisma only needs to be 19 by the time you reach level 18 (if you ever get that high) and can be boosted by items. If you start at level 1, I would put 13 or 14 in charisma.


(I don't tend to bother with Metamagic feats due to often not seeing the cost of using them as being worthwhile).
I'm afraid that's a common beginner's mistake. Certain metamagic feats are very much worth it (although indeed, most of them are not, except for flavor). For a sorcerer, they mean added versatility since you can choose whether to use them at any time.


Thanks. What other feat choices would you recommend?
Possibly arcane strike. Other than improved initiative and power attack, I would steer clear of any martial feats, and instead stock up on metamagic and other arcane feats. You don't get all that many feats, anyway. For a weapon, just stick with the trusty greatsword, and use spells (or a reserve feat, if you really must) for ranged attacks.


I didn't really want to rely on melee combat that much. Are Repeating Crossbows that good?
If you're not going to focus on melee combat, you shouldn't be playing a battle sorcerer. For ranged blasting, use a normal sorcerer (or warmage, or warlock) and combine it with rogue and unseen seer/arcane trickster.


Is Limited Wish that good? I know it would give me a lot more versatility, but I probably wouldn't use it very often due to its Exp. cost.
Depends on your DM; I wouldn't take it myself.


Also, what's wrong with spending a feat to get Longbow proficiency?
That you're short on feats, and that as a caster you have much better options for ranged combat.


Also, considering how the targets get aWill save to reduce damage from Shadow spells, is Shadow Evocation really worth it
Depends. I wouldn't take it because it feels out of flavor, but for utility it is still very strong. Note how it can duplicate e.g. contingency.


PoA stand for? I don't get why you'd recommend Maze over Incendry Cloud either.
POA = PAO = Polymorph Any Object. That still falls under Extremely Cheesy, though.

Maze is a no-save creature removal spell, which is good (although Otto's is probably better if your target isn't mind-immune), whereas Incendiary Cloud is pretty close to the many, many wall/cloud spells you have already, not to mention that it deals fire damage, which half of the monsters in the book are immune to.


I don't honeslty like the idea of being entirely reliant on the Orb spells (especially since I would retrain LOoS once I got OoF).
Why not? Orbs and rays are very useful. It also pays to have a low-level damage spell, especially if you have a way of upping damage.


I don't like the idea of spending higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells).
Get used to it :) in many cases it's worth it, and especially as you get so few "spells known" slots.

HTH!

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 09:02 AM
Technically, Sold Fog* and the Polymorph spells weren't on my main list, which is why I put them in brackets (I presonally wouldn't use the Ploymorph spells due to them being overpowered, but I included them because a lot of people would recommend them). Why wouldn't a Battle Sorcerer work as well with a ranged weapon? I wouldn't want to rely on spells for ranged combat due to only having limited spellslots (which is why I wouldn't want to have to resort to using Fly at the start of each battle), and I'd need to spend a feat to get Greatsword proficiency anyway due to Battle Sorcerers only getting proficiency with a single 1-handed or light martial weapon and all simple weapons.

Also, I don't like the idea of having a low Cha due to not wanting to be entirely dependant u=on using an item to bhe able to access higher level spells (using that logic, wouldn't boosting Str using an item be a better idea?) Also, if I had Fly, would I really need Overland Flight as well?


* I included several similar spells due to intending on retraining them later. For instance, when I got Incendiary Cloud, I'd probably pick Greater Dispell in order to replace it).

EDIT: Hold on, why does eveyone seem to think I put Solid Fog on my list when I didn't? I mentioned Stinking Cloud with the intention of replacing it with something once I got Acid Fog, but I never mentioned SF.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 09:30 AM
Why wouldn't a Battle Sorcerer work as well with a ranged weapon?
No, it's the other way around: if you're (primarily) going to use a ranged weapon, why are you playing a battle sorc? What battle sorcerer ability synergizes well with using a bow? (the answer to that is "none").


(which is why I wouldn't want to have to resort to using Fly at the start of each battle),
In that case, cast Overland Flight.


and I'd need to spend a feat to get Greatsword proficiency anyway due to Battle Sorcerers only getting proficiency with a single 1-handed or light martial weapon and all simple weapons.
Unless you're an outsider.


Also, I don't like the idea of having a low Cha due to not wanting to be entirely dependant u=on using an item to bhe able to access higher level spells
You're not. If you start with 15 cha, you can hit 19 cha in time with level boosts. The difference is that you will need a high strength right from the start (because you're a melee combatant) whereas you won't be needing more than 13 charisma until you hit level 8.


EDIT: Hold on, why does eveyone seem to think I put Solid Fog on my list when I didn't?
Probably because it's arguably the best in the fog cloud line. There's even something to be said for using a quickened solid fog instead of an incendy cloud.

Talya
2008-05-26, 09:36 AM
Battlesorcerer is yucky. Losing spells known as a sorcerer always sounds like a bad idea. In fact, I'd sacrifice entire class features so that I can increase my spells known. (Wait, sorcerers don't have any class features...oh yes, that's why I haven't been able to do it.)

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 09:40 AM
How is Solid Fog better then Acid Fog? (I just double checked Incendairy Cloud, so I can see why that isn't worth it). I disagree about ranged weapons not synergising well with Battle Sorcerers: they can't use shields* without the risk of ASF (unless they spend more money on enchantments to reduce the ACF, which would stop them from using money for other things), and I don't see how standing back and using battlefield controls and debuffs is honestly a problem. Not bothering with Cha would limit the types of spells which can be taken on a practical basis as well if it would mean not having descent save DCs. Just out of curiosity, if you were creating a Battle Sorcerer spell list, what spells would you pick for it? I'm going to swap Incendary Cloud for something else while keeping Acid Fog now that I've checked what the spells do.



*I know you class shields as a waste of time, but later on they can add a lot to the character's AC, which is why I see them as useful.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 11:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, if you were creating a Battle Sorcerer spell list, what spells would you pick for it?
Something like this:

0
Acid Splash
Caltrops
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Mending
Prestidigitation
Read Magic

1
Blade of Blood
Colour Spray (at level 6, swap out for Benign Transposition)
Enlarge person (at level 4, swap out for True Strike)
Fist of Stone

2
Blinding Color Surge (at level 8, swap out for See Invisibility)
Glitterdust
Stay the hand or Electric Vengeance
Touch of Idiocy

3
Stinking Cloud
Haste (or Vampiric Touch if a party member already has Haste)
Fly (at level 10, swap out for Keen Edge or Heroism)

4
Enervation
Greater Mirror Image
Greater Invisibility

5
Arcane Fusion
Overland Flight
Swift Etherealness

6
Disintegrate
Karmic Retribution


Also, for feats I would consider taking Arcane Preparation and Empower Spell at level 1 (assuming human), then Cooperative Spell at level 3, so that I can take a level of Mage of the Arcane Order for my 6th (or even 6th through 9th). Quicken Spell is a must at higher levels. Also, Dimensional Jaunt and even Minor Shapeshift may be worth it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 12:22 PM
Thanks for telling me. Why does your list only go up to 6th level spells, though? Also, why doesn't ranged combat supposedly suit Battle Mages and how is Solid Fog better then Acid Fog?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 12:24 PM
Thanks for telling me. Why does your list only go up to 6th level spells, though? Also, why doesn't ranged combat supposedly suit Battle Mages and how is Solid Fog better then Acid Fog?

Short answers, because SPELLS are your ranged combat, and because it's not, but the big cheese, which is the 5' movement, is given by the lower level spell, which makes the higher level one nigh useless.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 12:27 PM
Thanks for clarifying. Are you sure that relying on spells for damage output is a good idea with Battle Sorcerers, though? They just don't strike me as being that good in melee without cheesing them out with magic. If I'm honest, I thought Acid Fog slowed the victims as well (the description on http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Acid_fog mentions the victims being slowed down, so I assumed it was basically Solid Fog which also causes acid damage).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 12:29 PM
Thanks for clarifying. Are you sure that relying on spells for damage output is a good idea with Battle Sorcerers, though? They just don't strike me as being that good in melee without cheesing them out with magic. If I'm honest, I thought Acid Fog slowed the victims as well (the description on http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Acid_fog mentions the victims being slowed down, so I assumed it was basically Solid Fog which also causes acid damage).

It IS Solid Fog + damage. But why the hell d'you want the damage if you have the reduced movement, which is the good part? If they have reduced movement, you zap 'em with Enervations.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 12:31 PM
If the victim is slowed and taking damage, wouldn't that reduce the need to use other spells on them?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 12:33 PM
If the victim is slowed and taking damage, wouldn't that reduce the need to use other spells on them?

(1) Solid Fog lasts longer, (2) Solid Fog is a lower-level spell, and (3) the damage dealt by Acid Fog isn't all that impressive.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 12:35 PM
Those are good points (would the longer duration matter that much in a normal fight? I think most encounters are supposed to last for less then 10 rounds).

Eldariel
2008-05-26, 02:31 PM
Once again:
-Martial Weapon Proficiency as a feat is crappy; for the same price you get Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Either pick something that gives you all martial weapons, or just use an exotic weapon instead. They're always slightly better, so if the price is same, you have nothing to lose.

-When taking spells, you'll probably want to take one Elemental damage spell and something that allows for switching the energy type. That way, you can hit any type necessary. Also, you need at least one AoE-damage spell to deal with swarms and mooks. Acid Fog is a solid option. Cloudkill another.

valadil
2008-05-26, 03:13 PM
If you're considering a fog spell have you looked at freezing fog? It's like acid fog, that only does 1d6 cold damage, but it's only 5th level and throws in grease for free. It's my favorite of the fogs. Ultimately though you want to pick whichever one you have a spare slot for.

Doing damage is a nice way to stop your enemies from huddling in the fog and waiting it out.

FinalJustice
2008-05-26, 03:46 PM
If you are a Battle Sorc, don't forget Thunderlance (SpC). A 4th level spell that creates a reach force weapon which replaces str with char for attack and damage. Shame it only lasts round/level, but it's good nonetheless. And you get to fight with frickin' huge lightsaber, how cool is that?

Dode
2008-05-26, 03:54 PM
The "advantages" Battle Sorcerers give is balanced by the bass-ackwards temptation of sending your caster to wade into combat.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-27, 01:27 AM
That is an interesting idea, Valadil (I'll consider putting that on my list thanks). FinalJustice, how would you say Thunderlance compares to Orb of Force? I mainly put that spell on my list to deal with Incorporal creatures. I'll add Fist of Stone in place of Lesser Orb of Sound while adding Mirror Image in place of Blind. Won't Mestil's Acid Breath be okay for dealing with low-level enemies? I don't think I'd bother with an Energy Substitution Metamagic, but I'll probably add Cloudkill in place of Mass Fly. Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT: I changed a few of the other spells around as well while mentioning details for replacing spells. If there are any where I'm undecided, please could you tell me which spells you think would be more useful? Also, Dode, if I'm honest, that's why I wanted to get Longbow proficiency.

Kyrian
2008-05-30, 02:33 AM
I think what you need, (hell, what any magic based class needs) is more powerful, homebrewed, Prestidigitation.

I mean, who wouldn't want some more freedom with their mage? ^-^

Ok, in some seriousness, and in my opinion, I'd say I'd rather see the class unbalanced in terms of defense. I mean, you've got a mage (which by the way I don't play because...) that likes to wade into battle (I like wading into the battle. ^-^) So you want to make sure that you're well protected.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-30, 02:39 AM
I know what you mean. (Sadly, I don't have any Abjurant Champion information. Would taking levels of that require multi-classing?). Alternatively, playing as a Wild Elf would be practical here: uning my Point Buy, the -2 Int penalty that they get instead of -2 Con wouldn't be a problem, and they get free Composite Bow proficiencies for free, so spending the free light/1-handed MW proficiency on a Warhammer would cover the 3 types of damage.

Solo
2008-05-30, 02:43 AM
I think what you need, (hell, what any magic based class needs) is more powerful, homebrewed, Prestidigitation.

I mean, who wouldn't want some more freedom with their mage? ^-^


We could call it Postidigitation.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-30, 02:44 AM
What would a spell like that actually do anyway? I'm assuming it would be a Prestigitation with mechanical effects while beingat last a level 3 spell.

Leon
2008-05-30, 12:18 PM
I know what you mean. (Sadly, I don't have any Abjurant Champion information. Would taking levels of that require multi-classing?)

No, Combat Casting, a Abjuration Spell (Shield being the best one for synergy) and +5 BAB.
All easy to get by level 7

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-30, 01:02 PM
Thanks. I found this link a few minutes ago which outlines the class: http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mindysj/ppabjurant_champion.htm . What do Arcane Boost and Martial Arcanist do? (I think I read that Extended Abjuration doubles the duration of Abjurations, and Abjurant Armor adds the AC's level to their AC boosting spells, right?)

marjan
2008-05-30, 02:47 PM
Thanks. I found this link a few minutes ago which outlines the class: http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mindysj/ppabjurant_champion.htm . What do Arcane Boost and Martial Arcanist do? (I think I read that Extended Abjuration doubles the duration of Abjurations, and Abjurant Armor adds the AC's level to their AC boosting spells, right?)

Description on that link has wrong and weird numbers. AbCh is full BaB class.

tyckspoon
2008-05-30, 02:51 PM
I don't have the book directly on hand to check, but the Abjurant Champion also eventually gets to cast Abjurations as Swift actions. The fifth-level ability sets your caster level equal to your BAB if your BAB is higher than your actual caster level. Which is nice for people who managed to do up a less magic-heavy gish, but it's pretty pointless for your current build.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-31, 01:42 AM
Thanks for telling me (I couldn't find any information on what the class does on any other websites).