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SamTheCleric
2008-05-26, 10:07 AM
Ok, so I've seen a lot of people post their distaste for Dragonborn... but I have yet to see any reasoning behind it.

Is it because they are included as a race and gnomes arent? Is it because the females have boobs? I don't get it.

UserClone
2008-05-26, 10:10 AM
It's because the females have boob, for me at least. Wait..I hate all the races then. Guess I'll play an Aboleth.

Edit: Wait, did I say boob? I meant boobs. They can't all look like Whoa, after all.:smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 10:14 AM
Probably because they're so...so...

So fantastical. So High Magic and High Fantasy.

See, I believe most people see D&D as a way to play something like LoTR, with low magic, only plausible human varieties, etc. They fail to realize D&D is actually MUCH more powerful. THAT is why they complain, because dragonborn are truly beings fit for high fantasy, which is jarring when we think of classic D&D.

Tempest Fennac
2008-05-26, 10:16 AM
Hasn't D&D always been like that? I haven't really been following the 4th Edition due to not liking what I've heard about it, but I don't see how Dragonborns are a problem excluding anatomical issues with the females (admittedly, I would have prefered it if Gnolls or Lupins because a standard race instead).

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-26, 10:17 AM
Sorry, this is the same system where wizards can stop time?

I have no problem with Dragonborn. They look cool... :smallcool:

Prophaniti
2008-05-26, 10:18 AM
I haven't acutally seen anything on the dragonborn yet, most of what I've seen has been on tieflings. What little I've seen seems to indicate that they're a lot like the new tieflings except draconic instead of demonic and possibly less emo. If that's the case, I can't say I care much for them.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 10:19 AM
Sorry, this is the same system where wizards can stop time?

I have no problem with Dragonborn. They look cool... :smallcool:

See, most people simply ignore Time Stops out of combat. They don't think of how a crafty player is going to kill a DM's medieval world and turn it into Red hot Eberron on Crack with a few items. Once you see a Tippy society, you get your eyes open, and realize what is the true scope of the game.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 10:20 AM
I haven't seen all that many objections, actually. I've had lizardmen in my campaigns for ages, myself.

I think that some people have problems with (1) the name, which frankly could have been done less fanboiish, (2) the lizards-with-boobs, which is really an argument against those pictures rather than the race, and (3) the fact that, unlike elves and dwarves, lizardmen are remarkably rare in fantasy literature - but then again, so are halflings and gnomes.

Hopeless
2008-05-26, 10:21 AM
Odd I thought it was because they decided Draconians wasn't a suitable name for a race of lizard humanoids descended from dragons which is what I thought this was all about except for that bit about them renaming the race...

Otherwise I don't see any problem that isn't based about 4e unless its the issue of them forcibly doing the equivalent of pushing an A4 series of books into a Saga edition sized star wars rulebook sized hole...

Well that and warlocks but that would take too long to explain properly...

Vortling
2008-05-26, 10:30 AM
Some people don't like change. In other cases it's simply a matter of personal preference. Trying to quantify why someone doesn't like something tends to be an exercise in frustration. I don't particularly care one way or another that they put them in. Now Tieflings on the other hand...

Jimp
2008-05-26, 10:33 AM
See, most people simply ignore Time Stops out of combat. They don't think of how a crafty player is going to kill a DM's medieval world and turn it into Red hot Eberron on Crack with a few items. Once you see a Tippy society, you get your eyes open, and realize what is the true scope of the game.

What's a Tippy society?

Raider
2008-05-26, 10:41 AM
I personally love the Dragonborn, I think they are a great addition. But the Tieflings and the exclusion of gnomes on the other hand......

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-26, 10:46 AM
What's a Tippy society?

Tippy societies are ones that place internal consistency above all other concerns, made popular by Emperor Tippy. In these worlds casters are uber, and they know it. They use wall of iron tricks, teleportation circles, and other such means to control the world.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 10:51 AM
Some people don't like change. In other cases it's simply a matter of personal preference. Trying to quantify why someone doesn't like something tends to be an exercise in frustration. I don't particularly care one way or another that they put them in. Now Tieflings on the other hand...

And Tiefling Necros in particular (Take a look at the last panel and tremble in fear). (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=181)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 10:53 AM
Tippy societies are ones that place internal consistency above all other concerns, made popular by Emperor Tippy. In these worlds casters are uber, and they know it. They use wall of iron tricks, teleportation circles, and other such means to control the world.

Not exactly. I have one and the leads are a psion and a Swordsage, who stay on top because:

A) The populace loves them and will kill anyone who harms them by sheer force of numbers.

B) They're way above epic: They could take a few Vengeful Gazes of God without flinching.

Citizen Joe
2008-05-26, 10:59 AM
Fasa (now Red Brick) did it in Earthdawn with the T'skrang.

http://homeland.angband.org/images/tskrang.jpg

Bethesda Softworks did it in Elder Scrolls III: Morrorwind with Argonians.

http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Argonian_official.jpg

Land of the Lost had sleestacks.

http://meetinthelobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sleestacks.gif

Krynn has Draconians

http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/obsidian/10/draconian.jpg


So, there is a lot of fantasy lizard men races to draw from. The problem is that in all those cases, the races require a gimmick in order to make them work in the setting. I don't necessarily have a problem with dragonborn as a race, but I do have a problem with them being common enough that they are a base race.

Vortling
2008-05-26, 11:10 AM
And Tiefling Necros in particular (Take a look at the last panel and tremble in fear). (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=181)

I'm more annoyed about the "evil curious" feel they've given them. If their idea of "evil curious" is anything close to the type of players I'd describe as "evil curious" then I never want to play in a game with someone playing a tiefling.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 11:15 AM
I'm more annoyed about the "evil curious" feel they've given them. If their idea of "evil curious" is anything close to the type of players I'd describe as "evil curious" then I never want to play in a game with someone playing a tiefling.

Meh, I consider that simply a moron using inappropriate words. What Tieflings are supposed to be is NOT "Evil-curious" (For some reason, that sounds HORRIBLE and causes some kind of recall), but rather something like Hellboy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellboy)

bosssmiley
2008-05-26, 11:17 AM
See, most people simply ignore Time Stops out of combat. They don't think of how a crafty player is going to kill a DM's medieval world and turn it into Red hot Eberron on Crack with a few items. Once you see a Tippy society, you get your eyes open, and realize what is the true scope of the game.

I presume A Tippy society is something like a wish economy society (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=659653) then? A D&D world where the ramifications of PCs being able to destroy the existing medieval turnip-based economy with Core spells like fabricate, wall of iron, wish and suchlike are actually explored.

Standard D&D gameworlds: a terrible example of status quo is (Over)god (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod).

As for the Dragonborn. Chalk me up for a big *meh*

I'm an old school player. If it looks like a snakeman/draconian/lizardman/troglodyte then the time-hallowed traditions of our culture demand that the scaly abomination be killed with extreme stabbination (and its stuff Greyhawked).

Remember kids: claws, scales, batwings and thrashing tail = the bad guy. No exceptions. :smallamused:

Prophaniti
2008-05-26, 11:17 AM
Tippy societies have always struck me as a thought excercise gone horribly wrong, along the lines of Pun-Pun. Works fine on paper if indeed the laws of that universe are the RAW. It is a simple step for me to logically dismiss all such societies and examples because in my campaigns and worlds, the RAW are merely the mechanical tools we use to more easily interact with an alternate reality. Especially with regard to magic, the rules do not accurately reflect the huge investment of time and energy, as well as the difficulty involved and the often very unpleasent consequences with casting such spells.

TwystidMynd
2008-05-26, 11:20 AM
We houseruled that female dragonborn do not have boobs, and that all dragonborn have tails (because really, they should). Now I have no problem with dragonborn, and I had quite a bit of fun playing the dragonborn paladin last weekend.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 11:21 AM
Tippy societies have always struck me as a thought excercise gone horribly wrong, along the lines of Pun-Pun. Works fine on paper if indeed the laws of that universe are the RAW. It is a simple step for me to logically dismiss all such societies and examples because in my campaigns and worlds, the RAW are merely the mechanical tools we use to more easily interact with an alternate reality. Especially with regard to magic, the rules do not accurately reflect the huge investment of time and energy, as well as the difficulty involved and the often very unpleasent consequences with casting such spells.

What consequences? Create Food and Water. No more famine, EVER, if you keep a few items. THAT is what I consider a Tippy world, a world that actually addresses that kind of concerns without resorting to "It's banned because I didn't think of it".

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 11:31 AM
Why do you hate breasts? Did they kill your dog or something?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 11:36 AM
So, there is a lot of fantasy lizard men races to draw from.
In existing RPGs, yes. In literature, not really.


Why do you hate breasts? Did they kill your dog or something?
You did have biology in high school, I hope?

Rutee
2008-05-26, 11:37 AM
Dragonborn aren't mammals, IIRC. You can legitimately say that breasts on them are utterly pointless, since they don't actually produce milk.

Not that that stops anyone else, like Dryads.

EvilRoeSlade
2008-05-26, 11:39 AM
So, there is a lot of fantasy lizard men races to draw from. The problem is that in all those cases, the races require a gimmick in order to make them work in the setting. I don't necessarily have a problem with dragonborn as a race, but I do have a problem with them being common enough that they are a base race.

Their being a base race doesn't make them common. That's up to the specifics of a campaign world. Speaking of which, I cringe at the thought of them being retconned into Eberron and other settings, mostly because I hate retconning.

I don't get what everyone's problem with boobs are though. The more (boobs) the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

Crow
2008-05-26, 11:45 AM
I just thought they included them in response to the thousands of posters on the wizards boards who were always raving about their half-dragon epic swordsages....

...and if they are Reptiles, they prolly don't need boobs. Will female dragons have boobs too?

Prophaniti
2008-05-26, 11:53 AM
Dragonborn aren't mammals, IIRC. You can legitimately say that breasts on them are utterly pointless, since they don't actually produce milk.

Not that that stops anyone else, like Dryads.

Well, Dryads and Nymphs, according to myth, assume forms pleasing to humans because they like to trick and trap them.

These Dragonborn with boobs seems done for the same reason dwarven women were not illustrated with beards (eewwww:smalltongue:). Sex sells, and they're aiming for the demographic of people who will go 'Wow, that looks sexy.' instead of 'Why the hell does a reptile have mammary glands?!'

Zenos
2008-05-26, 11:54 AM
I am mainly annoyed with them is that they don't conform to my perception of a good lizardman race. A lizard-man race should, in my oppinion, be aquatic, maybe have poison or something. If not, then they could at least have made kobolds a core race.

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 11:55 AM
Something is terribly wrong with your line of thought if you think human/lizard hybrids make more sense WITHOUT the breasts, or that fire or acid breathing flying lizards the size of a house become unrealistic the moment you put on some nipples. :smallamused:

Morty
2008-05-26, 11:58 AM
Simply put, they're a silly race that seems as if it was put there to please fanboys who just have to play something draconic and breathe fire and generally be cooler than everyone. I don't actually mind lizard-like races, but I prefer them not to be the default choice for a PC, and dragon-descentant races are even worse in this regard. There's also the fact that they're adding such a ridiculous excuse for a race while goblinoids and orcs remain XP fodder, because they aren't cool enough to be PC races. And yes, it is a purely subjective dislike, but you asked for this, so here you go.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 11:59 AM
Not that that stops anyone else, like Dryads.

Since dryads are anthropomorphic (well, guneikomorphic) personifications of nature, it makes perfect sense for them to have a complete human anatomy. Well, they come from Ancient Greek mythology, in which everything is quite capable of mating with everything else. Particularly Zeus.

Rutee
2008-05-26, 12:06 PM
....So the fanservice of dryads is okay because you wrap it up prettily, but the fanservice of Dragonborn is bad. Serpentfolk have breasts too, IIRC. Medusae. SEriously, almost every female creature in RPGs has breasts, realism be damned.

Jeez, people, at least consistently dislike fanservice if you're going to say it's bad.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-26, 12:10 PM
Personally, I'm glad we have Dragonborn. I loved Albert Oddessey: that Dragonborn ruled! He was a 2 katana weilding one (but he wasn't sucky like CW Samurai). Of course, he had a healing breath he later learned in the game (he had mostly attack breaths).

I loved that game: One of the Sega Saturns finest.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 12:12 PM
Jeez, people, at least consistently dislike fanservice if you're going to say it's bad.

Ah, thank you for putting everything in such a delightingly simple black-or-white binary perspective. Of course, there's no difference whatsoever between drawing breasts on a human female, and drawing breasts on Great Ctulhu - they're both nothing but fanservice. Yessirree.

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 12:13 PM
Funny, I thought we were discussing Dryads and Dragonborn, not Humans and Great Old Ones.

But whatevs, eh? I'm just a fooray. :B

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 12:16 PM
Ah, thank you for putting everything in such a delightingly simple black-or-white binary perspective. Of course, there's no difference whatsoever between drawing breasts on a human female, and drawing breasts on Great Ctulhu - they're both nothing but fanservice. Yessirree.

Yeah, one entails something sexual, the other one entails you can finally win CoC alone. :smalltongue:

Ned the undead
2008-05-26, 12:18 PM
I have no problem with the concept of Dragonborn.
As a matter-of-fact I plan to play a Dragonborn Warlock when my group gets a hold of 4th ed.

The Rose Dragon
2008-05-26, 12:23 PM
Well, they come from Ancient Greek mythology, in which everything is quite capable of mating with everything else. Particularly Zeus (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1165#comic).

Link added to emphasize the point.

EvilJames
2008-05-26, 12:26 PM
I dislike them as a standard race mostly. For all intents and purposes, they are lizardmen. If they really wanted to make lizardmen a standard race was it really necessary to make a new race of lizardmen to do it.

It wouldn't be so bad if they were just a standard race for a new campaign setting, but instead they are forcing them to fit into worlds that have no need for them. The same goes for tieflings being forced into worlds that already had better versions of them. If I ever actually run the new game both races will be be disallowed (particularly if I'm running any of the older campaign settings).

It's not about fear of change, as many try to claim. It's about wanting changes that at least make sense and if it's not too much to ask can they be useful too.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-26, 12:27 PM
Link added to emphasize the point.

Also known as Cap'n Jack "Anything that moves, anything that doesn't, and the dust particles" Harkness.

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 12:29 PM
...How exactly, are they forcing you to use the Dragonborn in your game?

I mean, I'm prohibiting them from player use in my Steampunk campaign so I can make them servants of the dark forces from beyond the stars, and I don't think I'm gonna get in trouble for that.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 12:34 PM
...How exactly, are they forcing you to use the Dragonborn in your game?

You are, I hope, aware of the WOTC enforcement team which will come to your house at night and burn all your sourcebooks (and your pet rabbit, if any) if you don't play the game exactly the way they want you to? You wouldn't want to be Doing It Wrong, now would you?

EvilJames
2008-05-26, 12:35 PM
...How exactly, are they forcing you to use the Dragonborn in your game?

I mean, I'm prohibiting them from player use in my Steampunk campaign so I can make them servants of the dark forces from beyond the stars, and I don't think I'm gonna get in trouble for that.

As I said I'd be completely disallowing them. By forced I meant the retcon of putting them into Forgotten realms and the like and then treating them like they've always been there.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-26, 12:35 PM
Other than the Non-mammal Mammaries (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonmammalMammaries), I've got nothing against the Dragonborn. I actually think they're pretty cool. A fulfillment of the half-dragon template promise. I'll still make human characters for the most part simply because they get a large number of perks that can be put to different uses, and I like flexibility.


Ah, thank you for putting everything in such a delightingly simple black-or-white binary perspective.

The only way I can think of to make this sentence more redundant would be to add "boolean" before binary.

Rutee
2008-05-26, 12:37 PM
Ah, thank you for putting everything in such a delightingly simple black-or-white binary perspective. Of course, there's no difference whatsoever between drawing breasts on a human female, and drawing breasts on Great Ctulhu - they're both nothing but fanservice. Yessirree.

The enormous breasts that are the standard seen in fantasy art are indeed fanservice. Breasts on Cthulhu are probably just nightmare fuel, but hey, we're not talking about Cthulhu, are we? Not that Cthulhu is female (Or male) at any rate.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 12:37 PM
The only way I can think of to make this sentence more redundant would be to add "boolean" before binary.

Really? I would have thought (and considered) that perhaps I maybe could have printed and displayed it twice, or two times in a row, or possibly multiple times? Yes, I would have thought (and considered) that perhaps I maybe could have printed and displayed it twice, or two times in a row, or possibly multiple times. Really.

JaxGaret
2008-05-26, 12:43 PM
...How exactly, are they forcing you to use the Dragonborn in your game?

In general, disallowing core material usually doesn't make the players happy.

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 12:49 PM
As I said I'd be completely disallowing them. By forced I meant the retcon of putting them into Forgotten realms and the like and then treating them like they've always been there.

Take that up with Greenwood, not WotC.

Prophaniti
2008-05-26, 12:54 PM
I don't recall Greenwood making Dragonborn a Core race...

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 12:56 PM
Don't be obtuse. It's his decision to include the race in his world, not Wizards of the Coast's. If you don't like how how Faerun suddenly has dragon-people, bitch at him.

Morty
2008-05-26, 12:57 PM
I don't recall Greenwood making Dragonborn a Core race...

He did, however, put this sad excuse for a race into 4ed Forgotten Realms. It's not that big of a problem though. My group has already came into agreement that whatever region Dragonborn inhabit in new FR(Unther... I think) will be barren wasteland populated by Dire Apes.
EDIT: Curses, Ninja'd.

Raider
2008-05-26, 12:57 PM
Kobolds are well.....iconic monsters, they can be characters but they should remain in the MM. Maybe some more attention could be given to them but not inclusion in the PH

ShadowSiege
2008-05-26, 12:58 PM
Really? I would have thought (and considered) that perhaps I maybe could have printed and displayed it twice, or two times in a row, or possibly multiple times? Yes, I would have thought (and considered) that perhaps I maybe could have printed and displayed it twice, or two times in a row, or possibly multiple times. Really.

Touche, Kurald.


The enormous breasts that are the standard seen in fantasy art are indeed fanservice. Breasts on Cthulhu are probably just nightmare fuel, but hey, we're not talking about Cthulhu, are we? Not that Cthulhu is female (Or male) at any rate.

According to Rule 34, someone has already done this. I'm still not sure whether it would be nightmare fuel or simply humorous.

Crow
2008-05-26, 12:59 PM
It's not like he has much of a choice. WotC pays the bills for him and I don't think he'd want to lose that backing.

Scintillatus
2008-05-26, 01:00 PM
Boobs? Hell, I've seen Cthulhu with washboard abs and a thong. Ugh.

EvilJames
2008-05-26, 01:12 PM
complain to Greenwood vs WotC
How much control does he have over it really? Could be wrong but last I checked WotC owned Forgotton Realms and such, not him.

If he does have ownership can he really afford not to tow the company line?


Something is terribly wrong with your line of thought if you think human/lizard hybrids make more sense WITHOUT the breasts, or that fire or acid breathing flying lizards the size of a house become unrealistic the moment you put on some nipples. :smallamused:

Well since the easiest way to explain Lizard people to begin with, is that they simply evolved into their current upright forms, rather than breeding with mammals, and since nipples would serve no purpose on a creature that has no need to suckle it's children...

Madmal
2008-05-26, 01:14 PM
i haven't read almost anything about 4th edition, but if we get to 3.5, my posture is this:

Lizardfolk are reptilian humanoids. No boobs.
Dragonborn are a template race, change through a godly ritual and where most of the body stays with almost the same shape, interpret according to original race. besides, it's not like they'll be functional.

also, the whole topic is silly, and i've seen a picture of Cthulhu with boobs, best anti-depressive method so far. :smallbiggrin:

but well, this coming for someone who regurlarly checks the the OotS house of horrors...

FinalJustice
2008-05-26, 01:57 PM
A catgirl revolution is taking place at the playgrounds! Bring the anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89) ASAP!

Cyclone231
2008-05-26, 02:16 PM
What are you guys talking about? Is it really just the boobs? How about this for an obnoxious contradiction (taken from Wizards Presents: Races and Classes):
". . . the dragonborn are solitary and make their way through life alone."
". . . the dragonborn are a martial race that forged an empire of united city-states when the world was young."

Or maybe this one?
"Dragonborn marriages are dictated by old alliances between clans."
"A typical dragonborn clan numbers anywhere from twenty to fifty relatives."
". . . from time to time members of the same clan may travel together or live in the same spot."
". . . most spend little time in the company of their own kind."

So they are solitary creatures... that formed great city-states. They have a powerful clan structure that dictates who they marry... but a dragonborn clan is made up of maybe fifty people who don't normally live together.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 02:18 PM
What are you guys talking about? Is it really just the boobs? How about this for an obnoxious contradiction (taken from Wizards Presents: Races and Classes):

Obviously, that means that in fifth edition, they will split the race into two factions, called the Dragonborn and the Dragladrin.

Cyr
2008-05-26, 02:22 PM
Dragladrin is slang for cross dressing Eladrin silly.

Morty
2008-05-26, 02:25 PM
Eladborn then?

Tengu
2008-05-26, 02:27 PM
Fasa (now Red Brick) did it in Earthdawn with the T'skrang.

http://homeland.angband.org/images/tskrang.jpg

Bethesda Softworks did it in Elder Scrolls III: Morrorwind with Argonians.

http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Argonian_official.jpg

Land of the Lost had sleestacks.

http://meetinthelobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sleestacks.gif

Krynn has Draconians

http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/obsidian/10/draconian.jpg



Age of Wonders 2 has Draconians too, as a race magically created by an insane mage by experimenting on stolen dragon eggs. They're worth mentioning because AoW 2 is such a bitchin' game.

I like Dragonborn, but I always liked lizard people in fantasy games. Though I think the boobs for females are silly, indeed - what's the point? If someone thinks flat chests are not fanservice they have not watched enough anime.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-26, 02:29 PM
What are you guys talking about? Is it really just the boobs? How about this for an obnoxious contradiction (taken from Wizards Presents: Races and Classes):
". . . the dragonborn are solitary and make their way through life alone."
". . . the dragonborn are a martial race that forged an empire of united city-states when the world was young."
Yeah. They're a martial race. They forged an empire of city-states (that's the odd bit here), but now, with said empire in ruins, they're pretty solitary.


Or maybe this one?
"Dragonborn marriages are dictated by old alliances between clans."
"A typical dragonborn clan numbers anywhere from twenty to fifty relatives."
". . . from time to time members of the same clan may travel together or live in the same spot."
". . . most spend little time in the company of their own kind."
"From time to time", "most". Marriages are dictated by old alliances. So are some other social functions, I'd imagine. They go off, and every so often they go back and spend days or weeks or months or years with the core group of their clan (which has settled down somewhere). Kinda like a big nuclear family.

They remind me of European Jews, a little, minus all the persecution.
...Samurai Jews.

Tengu
2008-05-26, 02:33 PM
At least they don't have hair.



...Samurai Jews.

That's the funniest case of Ninja Pirate Zombie Robots (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinjaPirateZombieRobot) I've seen in some time.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-26, 02:41 PM
What consequences? Create Food and Water. No more famine, EVER, if you keep a few items. THAT is what I consider a Tippy world, a world that actually addresses that kind of concerns without resorting to "It's banned because I didn't think of it".
That always made me wonder, can casters get rich with "create water" in Dark Sun?

About the dragonborn, yeah, most people complain that they have boobs, and claims that 4E is being highly graphical to attract new players (see "chainmail bikini" for reference).
I don't know what exactly are dragonborn, since I didn't read about them. If they are like half-elves (half human/half elf), or even like the tieflings, that are descendents of demons/devils, then dragonborn are like a spin-off dragon/human race, why can't they get traits from both races? Then again, I don't know if dragonborn really have anything to do with humans. I'll wait till the books come out and decide if I'll use them at all.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-26, 02:45 PM
That's the funniest case of Ninja Pirate Zombie Robots (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinjaPirateZombieRobot) I've seen in some time.

A master samurai has three students: a Japanese samurai, a Chinese samurai, and a Jewish samurai.

After many years of training, he decided to put them to the test to see if they are ready to leave his tutelage.

"Chinese Samurai! Show me what you have learned," he commands. The Chinese samurai bows low, and produces a matchbox from his pocket. He opens the matchbox, releasing a fly; as it starts to buzz away, he drops the matchbox, seizes the hilt of his sword, draws, and makes several cuts. The fly drops to the floor--in two pieces!

"Well done, Chinese Samurai!" the master commends him. "Now, Japanese Samurai--show me what you have learned!"

Not wanting to be outdone by the foreign student, the Japanese samurai likewise bows, produces a matchbox and releases a fly. He drops the matchbox, seizes the hilt of his sword, and draws and cuts in a single motion, then makes a second cut! The fly falls to the floor in four pieces.

"Excellently done, Japanese Samurai!" the master says with pride. "And now, Jewish Samurai--show me what you've learned in your time here."

The Jewish samurai bows, produces a matchbox, releases a fly; he drops the box, draws his sword, and makes a looping cut. And another, and another, and another, as the fly buzzes around. At last, he sheaths his blade--and the insect flies away.

"Jewish Samurai! I am very disappointed in you! You did not kill the fly at all," the master frowns.
"Indeed, master, I did not," the Jewish samurai replies. "But if you were to study that fly closely--you would see that it is circumcised."

bosssmiley
2008-05-26, 02:47 PM
He did, however, put this sad excuse for a race into 4ed Forgotten Realms. It's not that big of a problem though. My group has already came into agreement that whatever region Dragonborn inhabit in new FR(Unther... I think) will be barren wasteland populated by Dire Apes.
EDIT: Curses, Ninja'd.

That'd be Chessenta (FR Greece) and Unther (FR Babylonia) turned into the old monkey empire then.

There is of course a simple and elegant solution to the ZOMGlizardboob! problem presented by the Dragonborn:

The entire species are monotremes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotreme), just like the echidna and the platypus.

Of course, this means that Dragonborn all speak with Aussie accents, wear cork hats, eat nothing but Vegemite sandwiches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegemite), and - of course - have Skill Focus(Barwork) as a racial ability and a racial backpack slam attack when in confined areas. :smalltongue:

They are the croc' that jumps out and sticks a thumb up your butt! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Townopolis
2008-05-26, 02:47 PM
I'm annoyed because they made half-dragons and tieflings core for fanboyservice and axed gnomes for fanboyservice.

Basically, I don't blame WotC, but I hate their fanbase :smallwink:

GIMMIE MY EFFING GNOMES!:smallfurious:

[edit] Also, they're not proper lizardfolk, which would have made it all better.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 02:49 PM
That always made me wonder, can casters get rich with "create water" in Dark Sun?

No, because I'm reasonably sure they won't get the spell.

Cyclone231
2008-05-26, 02:50 PM
Yeah. They're a martial race. They forged an empire of city-states (that's the odd bit here), but now, with said empire in ruins, they're pretty solitary.
Can you explain how the sort of mind that constructs empires can be the same sort of mind that lives on its own for most of its life?

"From time to time", "most". Marriages are dictated by old alliances. So are some other social functions, I'd imagine. They go off, and every so often they go back and spend days or weeks or months or years with the core group of their clan (which has settled down somewhere). Kinda like a big nuclear family.
No, dragonborn wander all over the place, from city to city and kingdom to kingdom, looking for work.

"Today, dragonborn are a race of wandering mercenaries, soldiers, sellswords and adventurers."

". . . only a few rootless clans of these honorable warriors remain."

"Most . . . wander to places where they can find opportunities to fight for a living."

Hopeless
2008-05-26, 02:59 PM
As I said I'd be completely disallowing them. By forced I meant the retcon of putting them into Forgotten realms and the like and then treating them like they've always been there.

Personally I'd rather they had revealed their first campaign was not dealing with Faerun but Abeir and introducing the dragon born on that continent and deals directly with the new additions but not by drastically altering the FR campaign setting allowing for the alterations to be introduced properly rather than as roughshod as it has appeared.

Then at least they can say you can run your Faerun campaign with little or no change other than the minimum required for 4e and have the real work dealt with in the setting described in the preview books which would have eased a lot of problems their PR has brought about.

At least then you'd have a perfectly valid reason for the dragonborn being a core class and why gnomes aren't present because each set of the core rule books deal with one setting with the setting book providing the background details and each subsequent core rule set adds to this allowing the next setting and so on.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like they thought this out properly, a shame because I did actually like what I read in the second preview book but after the fumble they committed with the removal of dragon and dungeon to turn them into online variants the hamfisted way they've treated their first choice of campaign setting really didn't help.

But I have more problem with warlocks than with dragonborn because if it had been my choice I'd have just declared that the change in magic caused sorcerors to be physically altered so that the dragonborn are sorcerors with draconic heritage and so on.

I'd have also turned the warlocks into bad guys but I still have a soft spot for Eberron, it isn't likely to last but I do wish them the best regardless.

Cyr
2008-05-26, 03:12 PM
On the bright side of things, The Dragonborn are the least intrusive race ever: They have no cities, no colonies, no major houses, no serious empire, just a few dozen scattered clans that number at most 50. Say there are, I don't know, 200 clans, right? 10,000 people max. Basically, they hardly exist at all. Suppose 1000 clans! 50,000 people. 50,000 people. So few people.

Hopeless
2008-05-26, 03:16 PM
Don't be obtuse. It's his decision to include the race in his world, not Wizards of the Coast's. If you don't like how how Faerun suddenly has dragon-people, bitch at him.

Actually if they were paying attention to him the Time of Troubles wouldn't have happened...

If anything Greenwood is actually trying to prevent the changes being any worse or more importantly make less sense than they do now.

Try checking out Candlekeep for details on this if you want.

Jerthanis
2008-05-26, 03:17 PM
I've got lizardfolk as a player race in my homebrew setting, though they aren't draconic in nature (they're dinosaurs! Or rather, the descendants of a race of giant lizard creatures who ruled the world millions of years ago), so the appearance/fantastical aspect of the dragonborn aren't a problem for me.

The boobs issue does disturb me, and if I run or play a dragonborn female, I'll quietly imagine them without breasts.

Overall, I'm down with them. The PHB needed a race that wasn't "Human... BUT: X" where X was "Shorter and hardier, thinner, fairer, much shorter and hardier, just really short, or brutish." Something very different as an option is always good.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 03:21 PM
50,000 people. So few people.

Well, except that in medieval times, the real world had about five percent of the population it does now, and a "points of light" campaign can't be all that densely populated anyway. So 50,000 is quite a lot, actually.

Charity
2008-05-26, 03:25 PM
That'd be Chessenta (FR Greece) and Unther (FR Babylonia) turned into the old monkey empire then.

There is of course a simple and elegant solution to the ZOMGlizardboob! problem presented by the Dragonborn:

The entire species are monotremes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotreme), just like the echidna and the platypus.

Of course, this means that Dragonborn all speak with Aussie accents, wear cork hats, eat nothing but Vegemite sandwiches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegemite), and - of course - have Skill Focus(Barwork) as a racial ability and a racial backpack slam attack when in confined areas. :smalltongue:

Damn, if they're like that I might even let them live!


In your honour Bossman my first Dragonborn character is gonna have a heavy Aussie accent... My wifes gonna love this, she hates my awful atempts at accents.

Morty
2008-05-26, 03:25 PM
Overall, I'm down with them. The PHB needed a race that wasn't "Human... BUT: X" where X was "Shorter and hardier, thinner, fairer, much shorter and hardier, just really short, or brutish." Something very different as an option is always good.

I fail to see how dragonborn are less "Human, but X" than any other non-human race. They're "Human, but scaly and with tails". As every other race, they're as much "humans in funny suits" as you make them.

Draz74
2008-05-26, 03:26 PM
I think Dragonborn are a great addition to some settings, and a horrible mismatch in other settings. (Much like Monks, fluff-wise, in 3e.)

So they're in the default setting, huh? Um ... meh. Ambivalent.

Cyr
2008-05-26, 03:42 PM
Suppose, for a moment that the DnD world is populated by, oh say, 1% (5% remove four-fifths of the world from humanoid occupation, it'll produce more then one percent, but for the sake argument...) of the modern world, there is something akin to 65 million people. 1% of that is 65 thousand. Less then one percent of the population is dragon born, assuming a thousand clans. Thats not even including the elves and Eladrin who dwell in the Feywild. The racial population is still beneath the population of Sharn (I use Sharn as an example purely because its the largest city in Ebberron.) unless there are 4,000 clans. And when there are four thousand clans, I have to say thats pretty excessive. Basically, Dragonborn are a largely insufficient race as far as game-world influence unless you try really hard to muscle them in and ignore all the flavor text I've read about their present state.

Rockphed
2008-05-26, 03:43 PM
"Excellently done, Japanese Samurai!" the master says with pride. "And now, Jewish Samurai--show me what you've learned in your time here."

The Jewish samurai bows, produces a matchbox, releases a fly; he drops the box, draws his sword, and makes a looping cut. And another, and another, and another, as the fly buzzes around. At last, he sheaths his blade--and the insect flies away.

"Jewish Samurai! I am very disappointed in you! You did not kill the fly at all," the master frowns.
"Indeed, master, I did not," the Jewish samurai replies. "But if you were to study that fly closely--you would see that it is circumcised."

You win the internet.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-26, 03:52 PM
Less then one percent of the population is dragon born, assuming a thousand clans.

Heh. Yeah, that's approximately 0.8 percent. Here's the catch: 0.8 percent of the world population is a lot of people. Statistics is funny that way. It means that on average, every reasonably-populated city will have a significant noticeable amount of lizardmen in it. That's not "rare" or "mythical" or anything, that means that statistically, pretty much everybody in the world will have met a couple.

Tengu
2008-05-26, 03:55 PM
Except that they're supposed to mostly live in these clans or alone, remote from other civilizations. Not in human or other races' cities.

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-26, 04:01 PM
They're probably just disappointed that that WoTC added a new race until the PBH instead of their favorite monster race.

Cyr
2008-05-26, 04:13 PM
It's a top end estimate (A closer estimate would use something like 35.) and it will influence a setting I admit. For a moment though lets say you live in a city of full of dwarves, humans, elves, halflings, gnomes, and orcs when suddenly every couple of days you walk past something that looks like some kind of lizard. Sure you're going to respond with a tilted head and perhaps a small side investigation, but once you discover that a new family moved into town, well it's odd but it's just not that big a deal. Let me put it this way, if a small country's population all suddenly became nomads and moved across the world, sure it would be weird, maybe even remarked upon. But its not a huge deal. Nor should it be. If you live in one of the big cities in our world, it would swallow the poor population of a thousand clans alive.

They're also a non-localized force, so the effects of their actions will be minimized. On the whole, I have nothing against the Dragonborn except the potential for retcon and their nonsensical flavor text. Oh yeah, and the game makers won't pay any attention to population logistics but I can dream can't I?

Snooder
2008-05-26, 07:11 PM
Heh. Yeah, that's approximately 0.8 percent. Here's the catch: 0.8 percent of the world population is a lot of people. Statistics is funny that way. It means that on average, every reasonably-populated city will have a significant noticeable amount of lizardmen in it. That's not "rare" or "mythical" or anything, that means that statistically, pretty much everybody in the world will have met a couple.

Which I believe is the point that the designers of 4E are trying to get across.

I recently read Worlds and Monsters and they said that in past editions, D&D has tended to be set in worlds that are basically Medieval Europe. Not a fantasy version of Medieval Europe, simply Medieval Europe, with a slight dribbling of fantasy that doesn't really touch the basic structure of civilization.

Adding races that are different enough to be not just "really short/skinny/tall" humans achieves part of that purpose. A world where your butcher is a 7foot tall lizard, AND YOU FIND NOTHING STRANGE ABOUT IT, is a different world from the one we live in.

FoE
2008-05-26, 07:13 PM
I like the Dragonborn and I likes the idea of spewing fire on my enemies.

As for the Non-Mammal Mammaries, well, the TV Tropes article (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonmammalMammaries) offers a good reason for this: it helps distinguish between males and females. Honestly, in the case of lizard people, what other visual cues can you offer to distinguish females from males? Other than shorter and more slender? One could argue, as well, that is just part and parcel of anthromorphizing dragons.

The problem with the "injecting sex appeal in dragonborns" theory is that lizard breasts aren't that appealing. That's for me and I suspect a lot of other people.

Really, it's a minor quibble.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-26, 07:18 PM
Ok, so the biggest objection with the tieflings and dragonborn is WotC pandering to fanboyism? I can accept that...

Thank you for answering my question.

JaxGaret
2008-05-26, 07:53 PM
I don't know what exactly are dragonborn, since I didn't read about them. If they are like half-elves (half human/half elf), or even like the tieflings, that are descendents of demons/devils, then dragonborn are like a spin-off dragon/human race, why can't they get traits from both races? Then again, I don't know if dragonborn really have anything to do with humans. I'll wait till the books come out and decide if I'll use them at all.

Neither Dragonborn nor Tieflings are a hybrid race.

Dragonborn are a race created millenia ago to be servants of the Dragons. They're not Dragons, per se, but they are Draconic.

Tieflings are Humans who signed a compact with fiends millenia ago. That's it - they're Humans.

Tieflings and Dragonborn fought a huge war millenia ago, annihilating 99+% of both species.

Crow
2008-05-26, 07:55 PM
I didn't realize that Tieflings were so popular as to have a following of "fanboys". Did they?

But I did get seriously sick of people constantly raving about how their half-dragon whatever was so roxxxors compared to everything else, when I used to go to the WotC boards.

Townopolis
2008-05-26, 07:59 PM
When differentiating between male and female reptilian (or avian) races, I'm a fan of having the males be more colorful and slightly larger, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a reflection of how it works for most animals. (bird males are usually more colorful, slightly larger males are found in any number of species of various orders.) Sometimes I switch sizes and make females bigger, just because.

Or just have nobody be able to tell except the species themselves, who can tell by scent.

JaxGaret
2008-05-26, 08:02 PM
I didn't realize that Tieflings were so popular as to have a following of "fanboys". Did they?

Why do you think they're core in 4e?


But I did get seriously sick of people constantly raving about how their half-dragon whatever was so roxxxors compared to everything else, when I used to go to the WotC boards.

It was a bit overdone, until the more knowledgeable posters over there hammered into everyone's heads that, in general, the larger the LA, the worse off the PC was.

EvilElitest
2008-05-26, 08:28 PM
That always made me wonder, can casters get rich with "create water" in Dark Sun?

About the dragonborn, yeah, most people complain that they have boobs, and claims that 4E is being highly graphical to attract new players (see "chainmail bikini" for reference).
I don't know what exactly are dragonborn, since I didn't read about them. If they are like half-elves (half human/half elf), or even like the tieflings, that are descendents of demons/devils, then dragonborn are like a spin-off dragon/human race, why can't they get traits from both races? Then again, I don't know if dragonborn really have anything to do with humans. I'll wait till the books come out and decide if I'll use them at all.

I actually haven't heard the boob complaint before. It is silly, but so are boobs in almost all D&D pictures, so 4E isn't very guilty there.

Anyways, my only complaint with Dragonborn comes from the name, as they are totally different from 3E Dragonborn, these new guys should be something seperate




They're probably just disappointed that that WoTC added a new race until the PBH instead of their favorite monster race.
or maybe they actually have a legitimate complaint and your just relying on faulty logic to try to discredit them?

from
EE

Fizban
2008-05-26, 08:48 PM
From what I'm reading the 3.5 Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon is not the same thing as whatever the 4e Dragonborn are.

3.5 Dragonborn are people who dedicate themselves to Bahamut and perform a ritual to change their forms. This alters their race much like a template, but it's an alteration to an existing body, and they will stay mostly the same, except for the scales, teeth, and such. They lose the ability to reproduce and are dedicated vassals for life.

4e Dragonborn, from what I've gathered in this thread, are a humanoid race with draconic features that was created a long time ago. They are their own race with no ties to any other, and can reproduce with each other normally, but they had a big war with the Tieflings so there aren't very many left.

So, there are very important differences on the boobs/no boobs argument, namely: 3.5 could have vestigal boobs left over from before the ritual, while 4e have no reason to have evolved them, ever.

In either case, I really wouldn't be calling them lizardmen, since, ya know, there's already a lizardman race, called the Lizardman. They're more like a Half-Dragon lite, allowing players to have a part-dragon character from the start of the game. I personally dislike the 3.5 Dragonborn, because of two things: requiring a dedication to a specific god, or any god, in the first place, and the fact that you've given up your ability to have children so you can kill stuff for said god. From what I can tell, I won't like 4e either, since they're just a generic "ooh dragon" race, with a forced in-game reason for them to be rare.

Crow
2008-05-26, 09:02 PM
But more importantly, back to the subject of Dragonborn boobs;

I don't think the designers were asking themselves the right questions when they were designing the race. Like what a hand-full of scaly boob would feel like, and things of that nature...

Just kidding of course. Seriously kidding.

Norsesmithy
2008-05-26, 09:33 PM
I could have sworn that the canon creation story for Dragonborn is that they are born of the boiling blood of a slain god who had both a draconic and humanoid form.

It only makes sense that they would share humanoid and draconic features, even if that means that their features are not consistent with a naturally selected species.

Its possible that I am incorrect, but that, at least, is what I remember.

Jayngfet
2008-05-26, 09:42 PM
Don't the very existence of boobs make them mammals?The reason I don't like them is because that takes out a spot that could be used for half-orcs or gnomes.

Bleen
2008-05-26, 09:46 PM
4 pages late to the OP:It's because the most prominent thing in our minds about them is when WotC went on about how "awesome" a race of "Dragon people with katanas" would be.

(Watch as I seemingly switch sides in the argument with finesse and subtlety.)

Style is nice, but I prefer substance. I'm fine with the mechanics (well, mostly, but that's for another thread) of 4e. The game is getting a rebalance, becoming more consistent, making character roles more clearly defined (an important factor in class-based systems, IMHO - if you're complaining about being "pidgeonholed" then maybe something with point-buy is for you), and so on, and so forth. I personally love how things are becoming more streamlined, and the system they're cooking up for extensive and detailed skill use looks interesting.

I'm not fine with the presentation. It's shallow at best. I don't want to hear why something is 'cool', I want to hear why they feel it was a suitable addition to the 'traditional fantasy' grouping of Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling/Whatever the hell else that DnD is known for, or even if they feel that a change in style (GUESS WHAT GUYS NOT EVERYONE PLAYS 2E AND THE 3E THE SAME WAY YOU DO) was necessary, and if the dragonborn fit that change.

But no, I got "DRAGON MEN WITH KATANAZ OMG ROXOR," and that's left a lasting bad impression on me.

That's all, really.

It's also a severe shift towards one group of player that also involves burning bridges with others. You would feel insulted too if someone said that their "new" DnD was better than the old one, but "your" way of playing is not the "right" way of playing with their system. It's vastly alienating to large groups of people, because it implies that they are "wrong". So the arguments might be seen as less-than-valid, but I can see a number of reasons other than "They're not at awesome as us because they can't adapt to change," which, TBH, is starting to sound very rude, condescending, and closed-minded for a group of people who are patting themselves on the back for "Open-mindedness and flexibility."

That is all. I'm going to go play my MOREPIGS now.

skywalker
2008-05-26, 10:07 PM
Also four pages late...I didn't read the whole thread, sorry. This is just my opinion, not directed at anyone.

I like Dragonborn. They're really fun to play, and I don't see anything more-or-less kosher about them than tieflings. I thought tieflings were a little strange when I first heard of them, but I've improved to a steady "meh." The dragonborn certainly seem to have less of an agenda involved in their creation. Just a "hey, let's make up a cool new race to replace that one we(and players) thought was less than cool..."

Rockphed
2008-05-26, 10:25 PM
The dragonborn certainly seem to have less of an agenda involved in their creation. Just a "hey, let's make up a cool new race to replace that one we(and players) thought was less than cool..."

Since I always had a steady "Meh" to gnomes, and now have a steady "Meh" towards Dragonborn, I think it works.

EvilElitest
2008-05-26, 10:27 PM
4 pages late to the OP:It's because the most prominent thing in our minds about them is when WotC went on about how "awesome" a race of "Dragon people with katanas" would be.

(Watch as I seemingly switch sides in the argument with finesse and subtlety.)

Style is nice, but I prefer substance. I'm fine with the mechanics (well, mostly, but that's for another thread) of 4e. The game is getting a rebalance, becoming more consistent, making character roles more clearly defined (an important factor in class-based systems, IMHO - if you're complaining about being "pidgeonholed" then maybe something with point-buy is for you), and so on, and so forth. I personally love how things are becoming more streamlined, and the system they're cooking up for extensive and detailed skill use looks interesting.

I'm not fine with the presentation. It's shallow at best. I don't want to hear why something is 'cool', I want to hear why they feel it was a suitable addition to the 'traditional fantasy' grouping of Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling/Whatever the hell else that DnD is known for, or even if they feel that a change in style (GUESS WHAT GUYS NOT EVERYONE PLAYS 2E AND THE 3E THE SAME WAY YOU DO) was necessary, and if the dragonborn fit that change.

But no, I got "DRAGON MEN WITH KATANAZ OMG ROXOR," and that's left a lasting bad impression on me.

That's all, really.

It's also a severe shift towards one group of player that also involves burning bridges with others. You would feel insulted too if someone said that their "new" DnD was better than the old one, but "your" way of playing is not the "right" way of playing with their system. It's vastly alienating to large groups of people, because it implies that they are "wrong". So the arguments might be seen as less-than-valid, but I can see a number of reasons other than "They're not at awesome as us because they can't adapt to change," which, TBH, is starting to sound very rude, condescending, and closed-minded for a group of people who are patting themselves on the back for "Open-mindedness and flexibility."

That is all. I'm going to go play my MOREPIGS now.

could you go into some more detail please?
from
EE

Bleen
2008-05-26, 10:34 PM
could you go into some more detail please?

We're pugging Gruul's because my guild sucks at the game. Some pubbie Rogue ragequit because I got a drop he wanted.
I've also got my level ~20ish Brute open in another window soloing some paper missions.

Swooper
2008-05-26, 10:52 PM
I don't mind Dragonborn. Not at all. Well, the boobs are dumb, but I can ignore that. There's so much other stuff to dislike about 4E - dragonborn are NOT anywhere near the top of the list for me (tieflings are, though).

xirr2000
2008-05-26, 11:33 PM
We houseruled that female dragonborn do not have boobs, and that all dragonborn have tails (because really, they should). Now I have no problem with dragonborn, and I had quite a bit of fun playing the dragonborn paladin last weekend.

Seriously.....I mean seriously......this is an issue? This(dragonborn boobs) occupies enough of your brain and/or campaign consideration to merit a house rule? I read this and for the first time in I don't know how long I'm ashamed to be associated with gamers......

Zeful
2008-05-26, 11:42 PM
From what I'm reading the 3.5 Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon is not the same thing as whatever the 4e Dragonborn are.

3.5 Dragonborn are people who dedicate themselves to Bahamut and perform a ritual to change their forms. This alters their race much like a template, but it's an alteration to an existing body, and they will stay mostly the same, except for the scales, teeth, and such. They lose the ability to reproduce and are dedicated vassals for life.

4e Dragonborn, from what I've gathered in this thread, are a humanoid race with draconic features that was created a long time ago. They are their own race with no ties to any other, and can reproduce with each other normally, but they had a big war with the Tieflings so there aren't very many left.

So, there are very important differences on the boobs/no boobs argument, namely: 3.5 could have vestigal boobs left over from before the ritual, while 4e have no reason to have evolved them, ever.

In either case, I really wouldn't be calling them lizardmen, since, ya know, there's already a lizardman race, called the Lizardman. They're more like a Half-Dragon lite, allowing players to have a part-dragon character from the start of the game. I personally dislike the 3.5 Dragonborn, because of two things: requiring a dedication to a specific god, or any god, in the first place, and the fact that you've given up your ability to have children so you can kill stuff for said god. From what I can tell, I won't like 4e either, since they're just a generic "ooh dragon" race, with a forced in-game reason for them to be rare.

I would like to point out that none of the D&D races evolved, they were all made by gods of some sort, even humans in this game are alluded to being divinely created. So they can have any conglomeration of features their creators (the artist) want.

Fizban
2008-05-27, 01:00 AM
I was going to say: allow me to rephrase, no reason to have boobs, as they don't breastfeed. However, there's no reason they couldn't: even assuming that the reproducing 4e Dragonborn lay eggs, which I just realized I have no reason to assume, there's no reason they couldn't breastfeed after hatching, like the platypus. The egg laying assumption comes from scales=eggs, but then we have the friendly platypus to think of, so no reason to assume the opposite isn't possible. I seem to remember some reptiles give live birth, so there we have it: any combination is possible, and without a quote or link to the 4e Dragonborn description, there's no way to make any conclusion.

Also: man, does it feel weird to say the word "breastfeed" here.

kwanzaabot
2008-05-27, 02:42 AM
Gah, this is what I hate most about 4e. Odds are I won't DM or play it (at least not right away), but all the arguments against the Dragonborn are so bloody stupid.

I mean, they haven't replaced Gnomes. Odds are, Gnomes will be in the Monster Manual. If you can play as a Kobold, a Gnome shouldn't be any trouble at all, especially considering that every DM should have access to a Monster Manual. And if not, I recommend finding a new group. :smalltongue:

As for the boobs thing, it's a drawing. Unless boobs have some kind of game mechanics assigned to them (+2 to diplomacy checks, maybe?), then why even bother worrying about it? Medusas have snakes for hair, Pegasuses (Pegasi?) are mammals with bird wings (which, besides belonging to different classes of animal, also could never support its weight, and having a bone structure that is downright impossible). Then there's Owlbears, Shocker Lizards, most Plants, Fey and Aberration monsters... the list goes on.

These are all monsters that are all impossible in every single way (often having game mechanics relating to their impossibility, as opposed to a cosmetic purpose), and people are worried about breasts? First of all, breasts are awesome, and secondly, let me draw your attention to the Synapsids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal-like_reptiles).

And of course, there's magic, which is also impossible. Anyone here ever played a Wizard?

Khanderas
2008-05-27, 03:01 AM
When differentiating between male and female reptilian (or avian) races, I'm a fan of having the males be more colorful and slightly larger, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a reflection of how it works for most animals. (bird males are usually more colorful, slightly larger males are found in any number of species of various orders.) Sometimes I switch sizes and make females bigger, just because.

Or just have nobody be able to tell except the species themselves, who can tell by scent.
I like the way you think, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Thats how I would (like to) handle it myself.

Not because I dislike boobs mind you :smallsmile: but if the dragonborn is supposed to be a step away from "human with X" this is a step (sacrifice ?) that has to be made.
...Fun stuff when you known X'hli since childhood and he finally met a mate of his own kind... and is now a mother.

Jerthanis
2008-05-27, 03:11 AM
Seriously.....I mean seriously......this is an issue? This(dragonborn boobs) occupies enough of your brain and/or campaign consideration to merit a house rule? I read this and for the first time in I don't know how long I'm ashamed to be associated with gamers......

To me it seems like houseruling falling damage. "Physics doesn't work this way. You accelerate as you fall, so the rate damage increases should also increase, making a fall of twice the distance do approximately four times the damage. The book says one thing, we say another, thus: Houserule."

Also: "Biology doesn't work this way. Cold blooded reptilians who reproduce by laying eggs don't have mammary glands. The book says one thing, we say another, thus: Houserule."

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 03:53 AM
"Biology doesn't work this way. Cold blooded reptilians who reproduce by laying eggs don't have mammary glands. The book says one thing, we say another, thus: Houserule."

While I am not a fan of female dragonborn having boobs...

"Biology doesn't work this way"?

They also breathe @#$!ing LIGHTNING!

lord_khaine
2008-05-27, 03:59 AM
breathing lightning makes more sense, its a usefull skill that gives them defence against a lot of predators.

still, i can accept the breasts if they actualy use them to feed their kids.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-27, 05:00 AM
breathing lightning makes more sense, its a usefull skill that gives them defence against a lot of predators.

At the risk of killing a catgirl or two, no, breathing lightning doesn't make any amount of sense whatsoever. Breathing anything else isn't really feasible either, but is at least solidly founded in myth and legend. Your handwaving doesn't help.

Morty
2008-05-27, 05:03 AM
4 pages late to the OP:It's because the most prominent thing in our minds about them is when WotC went on about how "awesome" a race of "Dragon people with katanas" would be.

(Watch as I seemingly switch sides in the argument with finesse and subtlety.)

Style is nice, but I prefer substance. I'm fine with the mechanics (well, mostly, but that's for another thread) of 4e. The game is getting a rebalance, becoming more consistent, making character roles more clearly defined (an important factor in class-based systems, IMHO - if you're complaining about being "pidgeonholed" then maybe something with point-buy is for you), and so on, and so forth. I personally love how things are becoming more streamlined, and the system they're cooking up for extensive and detailed skill use looks interesting.

I'm not fine with the presentation. It's shallow at best. I don't want to hear why something is 'cool', I want to hear why they feel it was a suitable addition to the 'traditional fantasy' grouping of Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling/Whatever the hell else that DnD is known for, or even if they feel that a change in style (GUESS WHAT GUYS NOT EVERYONE PLAYS 2E AND THE 3E THE SAME WAY YOU DO) was necessary, and if the dragonborn fit that change.

But no, I got "DRAGON MEN WITH KATANAZ OMG ROXOR," and that's left a lasting bad impression on me.

That's all, really.

It's also a severe shift towards one group of player that also involves burning bridges with others. You would feel insulted too if someone said that their "new" DnD was better than the old one, but "your" way of playing is not the "right" way of playing with their system. It's vastly alienating to large groups of people, because it implies that they are "wrong". So the arguments might be seen as less-than-valid, but I can see a number of reasons other than "They're not at awesome as us because they can't adapt to change," which, TBH, is starting to sound very rude, condescending, and closed-minded for a group of people who are patting themselves on the back for "Open-mindedness and flexibility."

That is all. I'm going to go play my MOREPIGS now.

Thank you for voicing my thoughts on the subject more eloquently than I was able to. Except that MOREPIGS part, though.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 05:04 AM
I'm still delighted to see "morepigs" becoming common usage here.

Charity
2008-05-27, 05:11 AM
Thank you for voicing my thoughts on the subject more eloquently than I was able to. Except that MOREPIGS part, though.


Isn't he just chosing style over content?

Saying you don't like 4e because you don't like the new mechanic is one thing, saying you hate 4e because of the way it is marketed is just daft.
It is exactly as shallow as he is accusing the marketers as being... and they are paid to be shallow.


I'm still delighted to see "morepigs" becoming common usage here.
The terminology void has been filled at last.

Morty
2008-05-27, 05:22 AM
Isn't he just chosing style over content?

Saying you don't like 4e because you don't like the new mechanic is one thing, saying you hate 4e because of the way it is marketed is just daft.
It is exactly as shallow as he is accusing the marketers as being... and they are paid to be shallow.

Maybe I understood him wrong, but I didn't get any "I hate 4ed" message from his post. I don't hate 4ed either, but the post I quoted summed up precisely why I consider WoTC's marketing of the new edtition is not only stupid, but also arrogant and condescending.

Dhavaer
2008-05-27, 05:27 AM
I'm still delighted to see "morepigs" becoming common usage here.

And I'm still laughing at it. It's the best alteration of an acronym I've seen, much better than 'crappage'.

Kompera
2008-05-27, 05:42 AM
Maybe I understood him wrong, but I didn't get any "I hate 4ed" message from his post. I don't hate 4ed either, but the post I quoted summed up precisely why I consider WoTC's marketing of the new edtition is not only stupid, but also arrogant and condescending.
It leaves me wondering if they had added Elves to 4e instead of Dragonborn, along with a description of how awesome Elves wielding rapiers were going to be instead of providing a scholarly treatise about how Elves would work and play well within the game setting, if you would have arrived at the same conclusion.

An article by a WotC writer was written more enthusiastically than scholarly? Truly, the sky is falling!

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 05:53 AM
And I'm still laughing at it. It's the best alteration of an acronym I've seen, much better than 'crappage'.

Thank Spike of Templar, Arizona (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/spike/Templar/series.php) fame.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 06:03 AM
there's no reason they couldn't breastfeed after hatching, like the platypus. The egg laying assumption comes from scales=eggs, but then we have the friendly platypus to think of, so no reason to assume the opposite isn't possible. I seem to remember some reptiles give live birth, so there we have it: any combination is possible, and without a quote or link to the 4e Dragonborn description, there's no way to make any conclusion.

Sorry to be that guy, but the platypus does not technically breastfeed - it actually "sweats" the milk out of it's mammary glands and the young lap it up as it pools in certain places on the skin. Don't ask why I know that.

On what seems to have become the focus of the thread, I disagree with Dragonborn having breasts, not because of my suspension of disbelief, but because the concept of anyone being attracted to a scaly lizard thing with boobs completely and utterly squicks me out, and the fanservice art of scaly lizard things with boobs would naturally do so as well.


Also: man, does it feel weird to say the word "breastfeed" here.

Yes...yes it does.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 06:06 AM
A baby platypus, AKA a "puggle":

http://likethespider.com/wp-content/uploads/puggle.gif

Also

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1050777162459_2003/04/20/nat21platypus2,0.jpg

Khanderas
2008-05-27, 06:07 AM
On what seems to have become the focus of the thread, I disagree with Dragonborn having breasts, not because of my suspension of disbelief, but because the concept of anyone being attracted to a scaly lizard thing with boobs completely and utterly squicks me out, and the fanservice art of scaly lizard things with boobs would naturally do so as well.
Oh but.... we made some KILLER half-dragonborn... and really hot to.
:smallwink:
Half Dragonborn and half yeti. Scweeet..

Grynning
2008-05-27, 06:08 AM
^
Monotreme power!

In 5th edition, Platyborn will be the new core race.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:13 AM
A baby platypus, AKA a "puggle":

http://likethespider.com/wp-content/uploads/puggle.gif

Also

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1050777162459_2003/04/20/nat21platypus2,0.jpg

*Insert big AWWW here. They're really cute!*

Charity
2008-05-27, 06:19 AM
M0rt you are quite sorta right... I seem to have blended his post with kwanzaabot's and a few others in my head...
That'll teach me not to quote the original text won't it... well you'd hope so anyway.

Though... he does say "Style is nice, but I prefer substance" then go on to rail against the presentation calling it "shallow" then suggest his/others dislike for Dragonborn is a product of this, which is ironic no? Then the ubiquitous reference to morepigs (you should get royalties Reel) for no descenable reason...

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 06:20 AM
*Insert big AWWW here. They're really cute!*

They also have a venomous spur that won't kill you, but will hurt so badly you'll wish it had.


Then the ubiquitous reference to morepigs (you should get royalties Reel) for no descenable reason...
All credit goes to Spike, of "Templar, Arizona" fame (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/spike/Templar/series.php). Which is a great webcomic.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:21 AM
They also have a venomous spur that won't kill you, but will hurt so badly you'll wish it had.

Natural resistance to poisons and toxins, I wuvs you!

See, this is what happens when you try to rain on someone's parade. You get an ace in your hole. :smalltongue:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 07:11 AM
So do we know if dragonborn reproduce via egg or not? I don't think there's been an official ruling... :smallwink:

Cyr
2008-05-27, 07:21 AM
Yes, they hatch, so it says on page 27 of Races and Classes

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 07:22 AM
Oh. Well there goes my theory... :smalltongue:

Xsjado
2008-05-27, 09:01 AM
Personally I'd prefer them without breasts, and the females will be bigger than the males, and there will be much confusion and DC20 knowledge checks:smallbiggrin:

Tengu
2008-05-27, 12:05 PM
Oh. Well there goes my theory... :smalltongue:

I'm curious to hear it.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 12:09 PM
It was just a silly thought that maybe Dragonborn are really mammals with a reptilian appearance.

There -are- some mammals that are hatched from eggs (as mentioned above)... so its entirely possible that these Dragonborn breasts are intentional.

Do I think anyone paid that much care to it? No. Does it impact the game in any major way? Not really.

Is it a hotly debated topic over the interwebs? You bet.

Bleen
2008-05-27, 12:20 PM
Not at all. I find 4e, or what we know of it, to be an amazingly-designed system that I am 90% sure to try when a full version is released, and at least 70-80% sure to enjoy thoroughly and continue playing with my group. Why am I suddenly in the "Anti-4ed" camp because I'm not gushing admiration for several small, likely-inconsequential aspects of the system that I don't like? I'm passingly expressing my understanding of why 4e-haters exist, and how both sides' opinions in the conflict are, by and large, silly, nonsensical, narrow-minded, and often unnecessarily condescending.

Not being in your camp doesn't mean that I'm instantly in with the opposing one. You're all blatantly-ignoring the like, first quarter of my giant post that I guess should have included the phrase, in big shiny letters, "I ENJOY MANY OF THE ASPECTS THAT FOURTH EDITION PRESENTS AND THE FOLLOWING COMPLAINT MORE OR LESS SUMS UP MY OPINIONS ON THE TOPIC AT HAND AND NOT MY ENTIRE OPINION OF THE SYSTEM."

I like how one sentence of my post (MOREPIG joke) is being read further into than an entire paragraph.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 12:28 PM
Perhaps because the connotation of MMORPG players being the primary demographic for the new edition is a piece of propaganda being thrown around by people who want to frighten people into not buying the edition?

Your words have consequences that extend far beyond the syllables you use.

Jerthanis
2008-05-27, 12:39 PM
While I am not a fan of female dragonborn having boobs...

"Biology doesn't work this way"?

They also breathe @#$!ing LIGHTNING!

*shrug* I guess I was just trying to express how easily I could see someone coming up with a houserule for this, not trying to argue that it's more unbelievable that they have breasts than that they have lightning breath.

To me it's harder to imagine a lizard-like race with breasts than without, so I'll quietly imagine them without breasts myself in the same way that I found it hard to imagine Halflings with the elongated Alien(tm) head in 3rd edition so quietly continued imagining them as having human shaped heads. I didn't go so far as to call this a "houserule", but I could potentially imagine someone saying as much.

AmberVael
2008-05-27, 12:39 PM
Two things here.

I do not mind the idea of Dragonborn. Reptilian/dragonish race? That's fine. No, they're not realistic at all, but I have a good ability to ignore that which really shouldn't work and just get down to what I find fun: blowing things up and roleplaying, to give two examples.
However, I do mind that Dragonborn are being made into a major race in fourth edition.

It's not so much that Dragonborn are bad, it's that I feel they're horribly out of place. They're not a traditional race, or even something that fits in well with traditional races. As of the moment, you have:
Normal race (human), brute race (orc), 'high' race (elf), short race (halfling), stout race (dwarf). In the end, they all look mostly human, with only one or two major variations- all of which merely warp aspects of humanity rather than add new aspects entirely. (Orcs, for example, are just plain bigger and have different facial styles. Halflings are shorter. Elves have pointy ears and slender features.)
And then they throw in... Dragonborn. They're VERY far from all the other races. They aren't just out of place in tradition, but in the other selected races. Instead of being a somewhat human variant, they have scales and breath weapons and seem entirely reptilian. While creatures like this were indeed presented in other editions, they were never presented as a main race, which is what they're doing now.
In something like, say, Morrowind, it's fine. They have the Argonians and those cat folk and they make the orcs very brutish and outlandish, and they have none of the other traditional races. They've essentially created their own style. DnD hasn't done this- or at least from my perspective- they haven't done it enough. As of the moment they are basing themselves off of traditional fantasy, and adding in Dragonborn as an integral part when they are so obviously newly shaped and out of place in the style they've been using just feels wrong.

So no, I don't hate Dragonborn. I just don't think they fit with everything else WotC has done. I acknowledge that 4E is moving towards changing and reworking everything they've done, but what they have done so far still gives a lot of the traditional style... so as of now, it still seems wrong.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 12:42 PM
Thank you for that very rational and well spoken post, Vael. I can understand how they could leave a bad taste in people's mouth now.

EvilJames
2008-05-27, 12:46 PM
Perhaps because the connotation of MMORPG players being the primary demographic for the new edition is a piece of propaganda being thrown around by people who want to frighten people into not buying the edition?

Your words have consequences that extend far beyond the syllables you use.

your use of "propaganda" and "frighten" in reference to this debate is very amusing to me. As if there was an organized attempt to destroy the new game rather than people simply stating why the game doesn't appeal to them in contrast to others saying why it does.

AmberVael
2008-05-27, 12:50 PM
Thank you for that very rational and well spoken post, Vael. I can understand how they could leave a bad taste in people's mouth now.

I'm glad I could help. :smallsmile:

Bleen
2008-05-27, 12:51 PM
Perhaps because the connotation of MMORPG players being the primary demographic for the new edition is a piece of propaganda being thrown around by people who want to frighten people into not buying the edition?

Your words have consequences that extend far beyond the syllables you use.
Meh, whatever. I'm done caring about the entire debate at this point, seeing as I thoroughly desire to put the extremes of both sides into a meat grinder and feed them to some extraplanar cosmic horror or something. The fact that each side only sees what they want to see and hears what they want to hear is enough to drive me utterly nuts when I try to put forth a largely-neutral opinion that expresses both of my trains of thought as a consumer. I'm tired of the fact that I have to be typecast as "for" or "against" and have that me the only part of what I have to say that ever matters.

I would rather suggest there be more peaceful hand-holding and singing in harmony, but these are THE INTERNETS, so obviously a minor disagreement is a serious offense to everyone's sensibilities.

kc0bbq
2008-05-27, 01:18 PM
It's not so much that Dragonborn are bad, it's that I feel they're horribly out of place. They're not a traditional race, or even something that fits in well with traditional races. As of the moment, you have:
Normal race (human), brute race (orc), 'high' race (elf), short race (halfling), stout race (dwarf). In the end, they all look mostly human, with only one or two major variations- all of which merely warp aspects of humanity rather than add new aspects entirely. (Orcs, for example, are just plain bigger and have different facial styles. Halflings are shorter. Elves have pointy ears and slender features.)
They are a traditional race, in a D&D sense, since Dragonlance was an official AD&D setting. I don't think they were statted out in the 1st ed book as a PC race, but the campaign was not really intended to fight for the evil side. I haven't opened that book in a long time, so I don't remember offhand how they were handled. If it's an issue I can check when I get home.

Their creation method was a hair different, though, though thematically essentially the same.

And just because something is printed doesn't mean you have to allow it if you don't think it fits in a thematic way into your campaign. And sometimes it's more entertaining to play something that doesn't just have tiny, cosmetic changes from another race.

EvilJames
2008-05-27, 01:30 PM
They are a traditional race, in a D&D sense, since Dragonlance was an official AD&D setting. I don't think they were statted out in the 1st ed book as a PC race, but the campaign was not really intended to fight for the evil side. I haven't opened that book in a long time, so I don't remember offhand how they were handled. If it's an issue I can check when I get home.

Their creation method was a hair different, though, though thematically essentially the same.

And just because something is printed doesn't mean you have to allow it if you don't think it fits in a thematic way into your campaign. And sometimes it's more entertaining to play something that doesn't just have tiny, cosmetic changes from another race.
Nitpick: those were Draconians and they were very different from the dragonborn, both thematically and intent-wise. (no they were never stated out as PC races although one of the proto-draconians sort of was )

Citizen Joe
2008-05-27, 01:32 PM
I don't think the problem is so much a matter of having dragon-like characters, it is this specific implementation. While it doesn't take too much suspension of disbelief to have elves and dwarves, having reptilian humanoids starts to stretch things. When they start having breasts (when there is no in game reason for needing them) then you are unfairly forcing everyone to suspend their beliefs much more for the Dragonborn than any others. I'm sure there are ways to implement Dragonborn without all of the biological logic flaws. I just seems sloppy to me.

Citizen Joe
2008-05-27, 01:37 PM
^
Monotreme power!

In 5th edition, Platyborn will be the new core race.
See Ducks from Runequest.

AmberVael
2008-05-27, 02:14 PM
They are a traditional race, in a D&D sense, since Dragonlance was an official AD&D setting. I don't think they were statted out in the 1st ed book as a PC race, but the campaign was not really intended to fight for the evil side. I haven't opened that book in a long time, so I don't remember offhand how they were handled. If it's an issue I can check when I get home.

Their creation method was a hair different, though, though thematically essentially the same.
I noted this already in my argument. Even DnD had draconic creatures before, and other such strange races. Half-dragons, Dragonborn of Bahamut, Kobolds, Neraphim, Raptorans... none of them fit with the style I'm listing above, and they all existed in Third Edition. The point is that they were not listed as major races, they were not an initial release, they were not supposed to be an integral part of the setting. With Dragonborn it feels like they're saying "here is your traditional fantasy world, but as it wasn't cool enough for our liking, we added in this race which is totally as important as the other main races which you're used to. No it's not a monster at all."


And just because something is printed doesn't mean you have to allow it if you don't think it fits in a thematic way into your campaign.

The problem is not that it doesn't fit in my campaign: the problem is that, as it is, it does not seem to fit well into ANY campaign. It would be fine if they went more traditional and dropped the Dragonborn out. It would be perfectly good if they changed more and added in things like minotaurs, or toad people, fauns, or... *insert some non-humanoid race here.* But they didn't. They have elves and humans and dwarves and halflings and then this one, out of place random reptile monster guy.
Sure I can change it. But that doesn't help WotC, that just means I'm sighing and changing things on what I bought, thus proving that I am dissatisfied with it. It doesn't improve the product I bought.


And sometimes it's more entertaining to play something that doesn't just have tiny, cosmetic changes from another race.
I agree completely. It can be very fun to play other creatures. I created an entire society based off of the Slaadi spawning stone. I think this was in Manual of the Planes, but somewhere it mentioned that on occasion the stone would produce Slaadi that did not resemble any of the castes that it was supposed to be confined to. I elaborated on that and crafted the Malformed. The Malformed are a society of these non-Slaadi born of the Spawning stone. They were bizarre, created in so many different ways that you would never identify them as a single race. One of these was my character: Shade.
Basically he was a ton of variant races and templates tossed together. His bizarreness was explained by the above story, and I made him and his personality entirely inhuman. It was quite fun.

The point is that the 4E races don't reflect that idea. They give you a single non-humanoid option in their selection. I don't think that works well- they should either expand it far further, or eliminate it. Don't be wishy washy in style, make something and stick by it, elaborate on it or don't add it in at all. It just sticks out like a sore thumb.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 02:48 PM
Probably because they're so...so...

So fantastical. So High Magic and High Fantasy.

See, I believe most people see D&D as a way to play something like LoTR, with low magic, only plausible human varieties, etc. They fail to realize D&D is actually MUCH more powerful. THAT is why they complain, because dragonborn are truly beings fit for high fantasy, which is jarring when we think of classic D&D.

Vael, you has been beaten to the punch...By the second reply! :smalltongue:

kc0bbq
2008-05-27, 02:50 PM
Nitpick: those were Draconians and they were very different from the dragonborn, both thematically and intent-wise. (no they were never stated out as PC races although one of the proto-draconians sort of was )Thematically different? Not so much, aside from being evil-only and campaign fluff, especially as early on in the existance of the setting. I don't remember proto-draconians even existing as of the time of the Dragonlance Adventures book in 1987. I don't think Taladas was even mentioned at all. It was Ansalon only.

Whatever happened to the setting after 1990 or so has been selectively erased from my brain, the whole thing got really stupid. Monumentally stupid. The novels really started going downhill fast after Heroes II.

/bitter

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 03:49 PM
your use of "propaganda" and "frighten" in reference to this debate is very amusing to me. As if there was an organized attempt to destroy the new game rather than people simply stating why the game doesn't appeal to them in contrast to others saying why it does.

Tell me what else you would call several individuals setting out on a regular basis to post their re-hashed arguments that have been proved to be lies again and again. Tell me what else you would call the association of World of Warcraft with D&D. Tell me what else you would call a systematic attack upon people with positive viewpoints, often breaking the rules in a blind fury of discrediting and insulting.

Tell me what else you would call information, ideas, opinions and images, often only giving one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions.

While you're re-defining propaganda for me, I'll be over here facepalming at the universe again.

Believe me, I have issues with this edition. However, I feel no need to make problems up, spread disinformation, insult people who disagree with me, demean the developers, or start threads with the sole purpose of complaining about wholly trivial minutiae. We took a poll on how many people were innately negative on 4th edition, and yet they shout loud enough that people still believe them to be the majority.

Just a little bit displeased, over here.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-27, 03:56 PM
To me it seems like houseruling falling damage. "Physics doesn't work this way. You accelerate as you fall, so the rate damage increases should also increase, making a fall of twice the distance do approximately four times the damage. The book says one thing, we say another, thus: Houserule."

Also: "Biology doesn't work this way. Cold blooded reptilians who reproduce by laying eggs don't have mammary glands. The book says one thing, we say another, thus: Houserule."


Actualy, biology does work that way, as its already been said they are not in fact reptiles but mammels, and are ovoviviparous. They need breasts.

And i have to agree, for once in my life i cant even begin to beleive that i play the same game as everyone here. This isnt a problem, this isnt a concern, dont like it? Dont complain and change it, it just makes all of you whiney

AmberVael
2008-05-27, 03:59 PM
Vael, you has been beaten to the punch...By the second reply! :smalltongue:

Not really. Your reply focuses on the idea of the race fitting with the setting, mine focuses on the idea of the races fitting with each other.

And even if you disagree with that: I gave a lot more detail than you. Also, my explanation seemed to satisfy the creator of the thread, while yours did not...
So you tried to punch, but you just hit air. :smallamused:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 04:02 PM
Not really. Your reply focuses on the idea of the race fitting with the setting, mine focuses on the idea of the races fitting with each other.

Nope. The idea in fact deals with the concept you have of D&D. Me, I see it like Star Wars without the Technobabble. How do YOU see it?

Edit: Not to mention, my cunning plan involving confusion and tarantela dancing monkeys is furthered by short responses, instead of long ones that are going to be summarily ignored, except in small bits.

[/Touché] ;)

AmberVael
2008-05-27, 04:03 PM
You mean, your post deals with that. Mine details the differences between the offered starting races. Even if I misunderstand your post, mine is still different from yours.
Thus, my point stands.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 04:10 PM
You mean, your post deals with that. Mine details the differences between the offered starting races. Even if I misunderstand your post, mine is still different from yours.
Thus, my point stands.

Actually, "We are vereeee much alike, m'dear, you just haven't seen how... *small evil chuckle*".

Basically, I'm okay with someone playing a gigantic spider in Saga, especially if it comes out of the core, you find it slightly unnerving.

Of course, spiders soon get recognized and vindicated, and in a matter of months we have "Spider man, Spider man, does whatever a spider can!"

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 04:14 PM
Inappropriate dancing and moping a lot.

...What, you didn't want examples? >.>

Kurald Galain
2008-05-27, 04:19 PM
Actualy, biology does work that way, as its already been said they are not in fact reptiles but mammels, and are ovoviviparous.

So you're saying that reptiles are mammals. FAIL!

And no, it's not a big deal that WOTC chooses to draw lizards with boobs, it's just silly (and the usual swath of 4E fans retaliating with fierce flaming against the straw man that people might not play 4E because of this, even though nobody has actually said that).

It is, however, a big deal regarding the level of education in certain countries that so many people fail to understand why lizards shouldn't have boobs. The Future of the Nation having a severe lack of common knowledge does not spell a good future.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 04:29 PM
So you're saying that reptiles are mammals. FAIL!

And no, it's not a big deal that WOTC chooses to draw lizards with boobs, it's just silly (and the usual swath of 4E fans retaliating with fierce flaming against the straw man that people might not play 4E because of this, even though nobody has actually said that).

It is, however, a big deal regarding the level of education in certain countries that so many people fail to understand why lizards shouldn't have boobs. The Future of the Nation having a severe lack of common knowledge does not spell a good future.

Scott Adams wants a chat with you.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-27, 04:32 PM
So you're saying that reptiles are mammals. FAIL!

And no, it's not a big deal that WOTC chooses to draw lizards with boobs, it's just silly (and the usual swath of 4E fans retaliating with fierce flaming against the straw man that people might not play 4E because of this, even though nobody has actually said that).

It is, however, a big deal regarding the level of education in certain countries that so many people fail to understand why lizards shouldn't have boobs. The Future of the Nation having a severe lack of common knowledge does not spell a good future.

They arnt reptiles, they may be called "dragon born" but they arnt, they are mammels, they are like the platypus and the echidna. How else would you have them feed their young when they hatch?

They have breasts because /gasp they are written to have them. Lulz! Try not to act so much like a jerk when replying to a different opinion, it degrades your argument
Also learning to read, which im sure is part of your grander education, would help you alot in the future. Notice i said they -are not- reptiles

Kurald Galain
2008-05-27, 04:43 PM
They arnt reptiles, they may be called "dragon born" but they arnt, they are mammels,

Thank you for demonstrating my point so effectively. Sad future indeed...

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 04:45 PM
Good bloody grief.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-05-27, 04:49 PM
Speaking personally, the thing that bugs me about the Dragonborn is that they've taken the whole human/dragon hybrid thing so damn literally.

I never liked 3rd Ed half-dragons for the same reason. I'd far rather draconic ancestry was less *obvious*. It'd be great to have a warlord known as "the son of the dragon" and for it to be genuinely ambiguous whether he actually *was* half-dragon, which is difficult if he has the face of a lizard.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 04:54 PM
Seconded. I played half-dragon characters on NWN persistant worlds who had horns, odd skin-tone, tail etc - but not a face like a crocodile's. It's not going to stop me playing them (my lack of any inspiration regarding them is doing that), but I prefer Tieflings and Dragon-people and etc with subtler features.

I might have to make a ruling for my worlds in progress, I dunno.

Cyr
2008-05-27, 05:02 PM
Thank you for demonstrating my point so effectively. Sad future indeed...

Firstly, is the ad hominen on the quoted poster really needed? Secondly, what if dragons AREN'T lizards? What if they're some strange, deviant off shoot of mammels with small armor plates that resemble scales? What if the Dragonborn aren't of the same genetic build as dragons? What if the form of humanoids is dictated by strange laws of the cosmos rather then species? What if the dragonborn have breasts because their some odd human-dragon mix, a bridge, a middle ground between the two? What if fantasy creatures don't have to fit into terrestrial species molds?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-05-27, 05:06 PM
Firstly, is the ad hominen on the quoted poster really needed? Secondly, what if dragons AREN'T lizards?

Since they have six limbs, they almost certainly aren't. In fact they're probably some kind of insect.

Xsjado
2008-05-27, 05:07 PM
They arnt reptiles, they may be called "dragon born" but they arnt, they are mammels, they are like the platypus and the echidna. How else would you have them feed their young when they hatch?

They have breasts because /gasp they are written to have them. Lulz! Try not to act so much like a jerk when replying to a different opinion, it degrades your argument
Also learning to read, which im sure is part of your grander education, would help you alot in the future. Notice i said they -are not- reptiles

So merely because they are not reptiles they must be mammals? That's nearly exactly the same argument that creationists use to justify intelligent design.

They aren't reptiles or mammals, they are whatever classification dragons are. However they are a lot more like reptiles than mammals, especially in appearance. Functionally, we know that dragons lay eggs so it stands to reason that dragonborn do as well. Ignoring evolutionary freaks like a certain duck-billed creature this would indicate that they do not lactate to feed their young, if indeed any kind of care is given. It is far more likely they just bring them normal food because the young probably have teeth. Even following avian traits they will still have the same diet as adults, but the food will be "prepared" to be easier for the young to digest. There really isn't any way to justify breasts given the current lore or any biological reasoning.

If you want to chalk it up to artistic licence that's fine, but otherwise you're just getting a lot of catgirls killed by provoking this argument.

Protip: When you tell people to stop being jerks it helps if you aren't one yourself. While you're at it, try learning to write before accusing other people of being unable to read.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-27, 05:08 PM
Im glad to see people just looking at a name and going "huh....cant be anything other then a." its a sad future when a fantasy world has to follow reality...figure that

and origianlly taken from Boss Smiely


The entire species are monotremes, just like the echidna and the platypus.

Of course, this means that Dragonborn all speak with Aussie accents, wear cork hats, eat nothing but Vegemite sandwiches, and - of course - have Skill Focus(Barwork) as a racial ability and a racial backpack slam attack when in confined areas.

They are the croc' that jumps out and sticks a thumb up your butt!

Xsjado
2008-05-27, 05:13 PM
I don't see how assuming that something called dragonborn which are supposedly related to dragons share biological traits with dragons is sad.

Just because its fantasy doesn't mean that everything is wildly contrary just for the sake of it.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-05-27, 05:45 PM
I don't see how assuming that something called dragonborn which are supposedly related to dragons share biological traits with dragons is sad.

Just because its fantasy doesn't mean that everything is wildly contrary just for the sake of it.

I can't put words in Innis Cabal's mouth, but what I find ... well sad is a bit strong, but confusing and occasionally annoying ... is the assumption that "biological traits" are meaningful in a fantasy context.

Dragons aren't reptiles or mammals or birds or insects or anything else, they're dragons. As for dragonborn ... well since as far as I understand it they're descended from dragons *and* from humanoid races I see no reason that they should be more "biologically" similar to one than the other, insofar as "biology" has any meaning once you're talking about crossbreeding lizards with humans.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-27, 05:54 PM
Thats pretty much the nail on the head Dan. I also think its one of the whinest and baseless reasons for not liking a system or even complain about. The dragon people have boobs, they lactate, and if drunk enough have wet jerkin contests. Thats how the race is written, dont like em keep your mouth shut about it and complain about things that have merit and meaning, not the cup size of your "lizard" race.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 05:56 PM
Oy, guys, I'm tired of this stupid argument. Will you please cut the crap? If you want to make sure about what the hell is happening with Dragonborn, go and check ENworld or RPGnet. People have got the books early.

EvilJames
2008-05-27, 11:29 PM
Tell me what else you would call several individuals setting out on a regular basis to post their re-hashed arguments that have been proved to be lies again and again. Tell me what else you would call the association of World of Warcraft with D&D. Tell me what else you would call a systematic attack upon people with positive viewpoints, often breaking the rules in a blind fury of discrediting and insulting.

What lies have people been rehashing? Were there any in this thread perhaps I've missed them. I like Warcraft so I'm not sure what I should call association with it. I've heard people say that the new rules seem more like an MMORPG than a Tabletop P&P game. If that's what you are referring to, then that's not propaganda that's their opinion. These "systematic attacks" you are referring to. Well I'd probably compare them to being told that I can't handle change or that somehow my dislike for some aspect of this game is because it's simply to "fantastical" or "high fantasy" for me or some other condescending series of statements.


Tell me what else you would call information, ideas, opinions and images, often only giving one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions.
I'd call it one side of an argument. That was easy.


While you're re-defining propaganda for me, I'll be over here facepalming at the universe again.
Redefining what now? Show me some people actively trying to destroy the new game. Please note that random people bitching about what they feel is broken or wrong with the new game doesn't cut it. Propaganda is a deliberate act. Not the random ramblings of a few angry people.


Believe me, I have issues with this edition. However, I feel no need to make problems up, spread disinformation, insult people who disagree with me, demean the developers, or start threads with the sole purpose of complaining about wholly trivial minutiae. We took a poll on how many people were innately negative on 4th edition, and yet they shout loud enough that people still believe them to be the majority.

Just a little bit displeased, over here.

Great! Me too. I also feel no need to do those things. I'm perfectly happy to ignore the new game altogether, however on the rare occasion I do chime in I don't appreciate people belittling me simply because I'm not impressed by all the "shiny new fluff" they presented .

Jerthanis
2008-05-28, 02:51 AM
Actualy, biology does work that way, as its already been said they are not in fact reptiles but mammels, and are ovoviviparous. They need breasts.

And i have to agree, for once in my life i cant even begin to beleive that i play the same game as everyone here. This isnt a problem, this isnt a concern, dont like it? Dont complain and change it, it just makes all of you whiney

You'll notice that my first post on the subject was basically, "It's no big deal, I'm going to just imagine them without boobs and not even really mention it overtly", and my second post, the one you quoted, was simply defending the idea of someone declaring in a houserule that they don't have boobs because someone claimed that by that player making that houserule, it made him ashamed to be a part of the same hobby.

I, and the other person said, "We don't like this, we're changing it." and someone said "You're repulsive for caring enough to change it."

Now we're being criticized for complaining instead of changing it?

Also, if they're on record as being egg laying mammals, warm-blooded and so forth, it DOES make sense that they have boobs. I prefer them being reptiles, so I'm probably going to stick to the way my imagination was triggered in the first place.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-05-28, 01:26 PM
"It's no big deal, I'm going to just imagine them without boobs and not even really mention it overtly"

I'm quoting this for two reasons.

Firstly, I thought I'd make a juvenile joke about overtly mentioning boobs.

Secondly, I thought I'd point out that this is actually an often-overlooked strength of roleplaying as a hobby. You can actually just imagine stuff differently. I'm pointing it out because people often seem to forget it. If you don't want dragonboobs, and I do want dragonboobs, then it's not a problem, you can imagine them one way and I can imagine them the other and what's more we can actually do that in the same game.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 06:37 PM
Secondly, I thought I'd point out that this is actually an often-overlooked strength of roleplaying as a hobby. You can actually just imagine stuff differently.

All together now...

Oberoni, Oberooooni
Gimme an O! Gimme a B! ...

Norsesmithy
2008-05-28, 10:22 PM
I could have sworn that the canon creation story for Dragonborn is that they are born of the boiling blood of a slain god who had both a draconic and humanoid form.

It only makes sense that they would share humanoid and draconic features, even if that means that their features are not consistent with a naturally selected species.

Its possible that I am incorrect, but that, at least, is what I remember.

I feel compelled to quote myself, because I feel that, in large part, this is a big argument over something deliberate, and something that MAKES SENSE GIVEN THE BASE FLUFF.

I know this doesn't help any for fans of the Realms or Eberon (because the Dragonborn creation story will be different in those worlds), but in the core (points of light) setting, this is how and why they have human-esque breasts.

Helgraf
2008-05-28, 11:38 PM
Inappropriate dancing and moping a lot.

...What, you didn't want examples? >.>

Sooo, how's the Academy?

DigoDragon
2008-05-29, 07:36 AM
So... to answer the original posted question, I have no problems with the Dragonborn. It's fine as it is; humanoid dragon people... breath weapon.... boobs... sure. It's just a game, as long as my group has fun I'm not going to worry about biological questions. :smallcool: If my group has issues with Dragonborn, we'll discuss it and then as DM I'll make a fair house rule.

I could always houserule them to be more human and mammal like... say... The Gria (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gria) from Final Fantasy Tactics A2.

nagora
2008-05-29, 07:55 AM
Ok, so I've seen a lot of people post their distaste for Dragonborn... but I have yet to see any reasoning behind it.

Is it because they are included as a race and gnomes arent? Is it because the females have boobs? I don't get it.

It's because it's a cynical trap. Dragonborn and the other funny races are so unlike anything else it means that Hasbro can more easily attempt to prosecute anyone who produces 4ed material with these things in them. It's what's known as "lock-in" in computing circles. If you use these ridiculously specific races in your campaign then you'll be beholden to Hasbro and the developers who pay them protection money for any scenarios etc.

Hasbro doesn't own gnomes, elves and dwarves. The do own dragonborn, trifles, and whatever the other one is. They can afford to drop gnomes, and I'm sure they'd like to drop elves and dwarves (and humans, for that matter) but they don't think the market would accept that, so they have to put up with carrying "intellectual property" that they can't monopolise.

Dragonborn exist for only one reason: to be a trademark.

Charity
2008-05-29, 08:03 AM
Dragonborn exist for only one reason: to be a trademark.

Lucky everyone hates em then.:smallwink:

To be honest dragon/lizard people are not going to be the exclusive property of the evil Hasbro empire, they really arn't, I think you may be getting a bit carried away.

I for one welcome our new scaley overlords.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 08:04 AM
Seeing the one in KotS in action... quite impressive. The Breath Weapon helps to clear a path through minions.