FMA Setting Hub

[black dragoon]

Hello, I am looking to work on a possible variation of the avatar SEED system created in Gitp and am looking for like-minded inviduals. The premise is a viable form of The alchemy used in the Anime Fullmetal Alchemist as well as a seeting that either follows or is based upon the anime/manga. I am always looking for people and you can send me a PM if you have any interest. I'll continously update as things happen and will son have a list of things that need to be statted/fluffed into exisistence. So please contact me any time!:smallbiggrin:

Alright guys and gals I'm designating this as the Hub from here on. I'll post links to the other threads sounds good?
The other Links:
The alchemist class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4407012#post4407012)
The world setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4407035#post4407035)

[HeroicSociopath]

Would we need foreknowledge of the seed system to play?

Cause I love full metal, but don't have alot of knowledge of systems outside of d20.

[black dragoon]

Yes and no. THe SEED system is'nt broken down to a simple and easy to understand thingy yet. You do however need a general idea so look up the Avatar class forums and read the overview. That and I need a fluff man on manga only materials since there next to impossible for me to get at the moment.

[DracoDei]

I beleive what he is talking about is a VARIATION of d20 that was developed on these boards. The advantages to seeds is that they allow more flexiable creation of spells on the fly. The pre-existing one was for "Avatar: The Last Airbender"

[black dragoon]

Correct! *gives a cookie* I was trying to word it but...failed. I feel that this system can pull off the feel of Fma better than regular systems. Of course I may twist it some more.:smallamused:

[black dragoon]

Alright ready or not I'm setting up the basic To-Do listy thingy.

- The Three types of alchemy and their skill sets.
-classes and advances based on these
-new occupations that are more setting specific.State alchemist, ishblan crusader etc.
- Automail rules
-Hommunculi stats or templates.,blood seal armors, and Chimeras(a few examples of these will do)
-new feats
- An actual world to play this in
- and a couple of notable characters and mooks to throw at people.

sounds good,no?

[puppyavenger]

Three types?

[Dark-Penance]

Three types?

Perhaps the Aristotelian changes:
Aristotle recognizes four kinds of change: change in quantity, quality, relation (including position), and substantial change (creation and annihilation).
Often the substantial changes (creation and annihilation/destruction) are separated in modern studies and changes in quantity are really considered a function of those substantial changes. Relation is largely disregarded in this sense and this leaves us with changes in quality (mutation).

Three types of change: creation, destruction, mutation (morph).

[Waspinator]

If we work too much on this, will we be eaten by a weird black gate?

[Dark-Penance]

If we work too much on this, will we be eaten by a weird black gate?

Yes. Inside the gate, "It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."

Being completely serious, Scar needs a special prestige class (probably not a base/standard class), Homunculus should probably be a template that lets you pick abilities for every X number of hit dice you have or a variety of separate monsters (probably preferable since there aren't that many of them anyway - unless you're striving more to create a world that looks and feels like their world, and not their world exactly).

[Lady Tialait]

Sounds fun, I'll be working on it. But, my brain isn't the most reliable for this stuff. I'm working on two Campaigns and running three (all IRL) I'm also pregnate and I have a chaotic schedule. But, I'll help out as much as I can.

[jagadaishio]

Scar should be represented with an epic artifact tattoo drawing on the Destruction element of alchemy, assuming a system of Destruction, Creation, and Alteration. Destruction would of course be the breaking down of something into baser components, Creation would be of taking base components and turning them into something more complex, and Alteration would be the changing of the shape of something without the altering of its actual components. This does raise the problem, though, of how an alchemist could be just one of those classes and how to combine seeds from the different lists, as they would be drawing on multiple skills. After all, most of the complex alchemical reactions seemed to include elements of all three.

[Dark-Penance]

Decomposition: Scar uses his right arm to transmute an object (or living being) and stops at the second step, deconstruction/decomposition, to break the object down into its base elements. Stopping at the second step allows him to do this without performing a transmutation and violating Ishvalan teaching(although since Scar's arm only has the tattoo for deconstruction, he could not perform transmutations even if he wanted to). In the anime, he usually uses this technique by placing his hand on a person's forehead and imploding their brains, blowing out the back of their skull. In the manga, he kills people by deconstructing their internal organs, tearing them apart from within.

So, indeed, most alchemists do not simply focus on one piece, but rather incorporate them all.

I found the three terms that I think Dragoon was actually talking about now (and they aren't much different):
Using a special inscription called a "transmutation circle", an alchemist changes matter in three steps: "analysis", understanding the physical properties of the substance to be transmuted; "decomposition", breaking the substance down into a rudimentary form; and "reconstruction", rebuilding the substance under the alchemist's direction.

[Ceiling009]

You would first need to define a skill, and an idea of arbitrary DC's for uses. I would probably say "Alchemy" not "craft (alchemy)", and tie to a stat; I say either either Int or Cha (though I'm pushing more for Int).

Then as I can see it, you would have three base seeds, Analysis, Decomposition, and Reconstruction.

The problem is seeds through out. What would they be? Cause theoretically, everything can be done with the base seeds.

[Fizban]

I don't know about a SEED system, but the last Avatar thread I read here was a modified warlock. {Scrubbed}

[black dragoon]

Actually I meant the three styles of alchemy. Western,Eastern,and for the lack of proper terms Ishbalan alchemy. Each performs diffrently and focuses on a different aspect of the DUT(decompose,understand,transmute) principals. Yeah Scar needs his own P-class. THough this is moving in D20 modern which may change certain aspects of play. Also appprently he never actually completed his tatoos B/c his other arm would allow for reconstruction of whatever he had broke down. Seeds could be lumped by their place in the DUT cycle but seperated by their particular use and application. For example say alchemist X wants to to make a sword he must first break down the metal he has at hand say a DC10, Then determine it's inherent properties Approx. a DC10 again or just lump the two at a DC15 approx. now comes the tricky part. Alchemist X has the shape metal seed and since he's basically reshaping a hunk of metal it won't have a high Dc(10 again) but if he wants to change say copper to steel he'll increase the DC by around say 5 or 6. Sounds right making a DC 15-16 and a shiny new pokey thing.
Mind you this me scratching my head at the problem so show me some critques here.:smallsmile:

[black dragoon]

Here's the wiki article I am using for reference.
here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_%28Fullmetal_Alchemist%29)
from here ou can also link to a couple other bits that prove helpful in deciphering my jabber

I think I may have found a base set for the various skills to use:smallsmile:
here (http://www.animeindepth.com/series.php?series=1&page=12&mode=page)
The top symbols can act as a base set of skills that are refined and changed depending upon the array used. Rough idea but it could work. Yes,no?

[black dragoon]

Alright lads and lassies I taking a rough role-call today so beam me a PM if your in (even while dealing with several tasks or an *gasp* actual life:smallwink:) I myself will respond as helpfully as I can and as quickly and cleanly as possible. Here's hoping I can get this turkey flying hi and blasting apart hommunculi!:smallbiggrin:

[black dragoon]

Four posts...that's a scary sight.
anyway here goes.
Alchemy overview
History

The process of changing matter from one form to another using mystic forces. Alchemy was first used by the ancient egytians to create the materials needed for their great monolithic structures and to conquer the Nile Delta. By the Grecco-Roman era Alchemy pervaded all aspects of society and had become a formal practice in Western cultures. In East Asia Alchemy arose independtley and focused primarily upon the body and the flow of Chi. Astime went on and history moved steadily forward alchemy rose and fell in prominence. During the age of the Holy Roman Empire alchemy was prohibted and those who practiced it were burned at the stake. This continued for an extremely long time until the recent scientific revolution. Now in the year 1900 much of the lost techniques of Western Alchemy have been relearned and used in modern methods of manufacturing and research. Nearly every country of the modern world has created institutes soley for using this lost art.
The laws of Alchemy

Without a circle there is nothing
All Alchemy requires special diagrams called transmutation circles. These symbols channel the energy needed to facilitate the process. An array as their called can be scribed using anything:blood,chalk,ink,etc. It is said however that certain individuals can perfom alchemy without an array and need simply to concentrate upon their task at hand. Though like all things in alchemy it is said that this incredible power comes at a price...
Equalvilant Exchange
Nothing can be taken without something being given in return. This is the premiere law of alchemy. All alchemists must follow this tenet. If an alchemist wants to create a one-foot cube of water he must borrow this water from something or somewhere and it must be an equal amount.
It is said that this law can be circumvented though. Using a mthical artifact;the Philosopher's Stone. A powerful alchemical booster that can allow for nearly anything to happen.
the Forbidden art: Human Transmutation
It is possible to heal with alchemy, the chinese and other asiatics have done so for centuries. but to create life is something utterly different. "to raise the dead is to go against God." as one alchemist of the middle ages puts it. Human Transmutation is supposedly impossible though techniques such as soul tranference into a suit of armor by blood seal are possible though costly if the alchemist is not highly talented and the creation of false life such as the chimeras and hommunculi are also possible they all take an extremely large toll upon the alchemists involved. It is for these reasons any form of human transmutation are banned in nearly every country. However a recent tome found within a an ancient egytian temple may hint at the way to circumvent this law it translates as follows:
Take the sparrow and turn it green. From here extract the Swan and make her blue as the sky. With this raise the impefect hawk covered with white and red. fianally with singing suns and a final twist raise the fenex(this is a literal translation) perfect red and fling open the final door into truth and walk back from the final journey unscathed.
So far no one has actually determined the truth behind this text. Many believe that it is an allusion to philosopher's stone however.

[Pirate_King]

could the seeds then be different kinds of transmutation circles needed for certain kinds of alchemy?

can you combine different transmutation circles?

and there's the creation of a feat (with high prereq's I suppose) to get rid of the material component needed for the circles.

[black dragoon]

So your in I assume?:smallwink:
yes actually.:smallsmile: the different transmutation circles are the diffrent seeds. And they normally can be mixed and matched as you need and want.

For Ex. lets say I have the base Seed of the Destruction (see about two posts back and the second here for the symbols that will represent the different bases) The destruction seed allows for the breaking down of materials and also the cancelation of other arrays. This is probaley going to be a Dc 10 or so. add to this to the array for metals(a +1-5) and you can effectivley rust something or reverse the effects of someone elses transmutation circle and turn a weapon into a lump of useless metal.

As for the second question. The only way to use alchemy eithout a material circle is to see Gate/Doors. In the anime and manga reaspectivley. Someone who has seen this thing must have performed human transmutation and tried to put a dead person's soul into a body without Red water,a Red Stone or the piece de resistance' the Philosopher's stone. No matter what when a person tries this unassisted transmutation They taken before this gate and (I think I'll draw up a table here sooner or later) given a glimpse of the complete and utter Truth about Alchemy/Everything. This has a cost like everything else and normally a bodypart(arm,leg,organs and for certain poor souls their entire body) taken into this massive gateway. So yeah there's some pretty steep penalties and major risks involved in trying to become able to not use a circle. However, many less crazy/naive alchemists simply carry several items with the circle already drawn on them allowing for quick and easy use without the possibility of having your soul ripped from your body.

[Norr]

I know this project will be something of a mish-mash (or compromise, using a nicer-sounding word) of the anime and manga series. However, there are some things that differ too wildly between them to find a clear middle ground. Some of these include:
The Gate: when attemting human transmutation, you will see the Gate of Alchemy/Gate of Truth. However, is it the being in the gate itself or 'Mr Truth' who take your body part? I must say I lean to Truth, since it gives the DM a chance at some amusing roleplaying.
Homunculi: Are these made by an immortal being (manga) or the inevitable result of a failed human transmutation? The manga route might even allow for a mortal with the right knowledge to create one of seven themed homunculy (you know what I mean I hope :smallwink:).

Also, we need to know exactly how many seeds/seed types we need. The four classical elements are a good start, and also throwing in the complementary asian elements wood and metal. These types could work much like schools of magic, including booster feats and some form of specialisation.

While at the subject of specialisation, it's not really necessary to make another psion [insert specialty dicipline here]. With a few ability-boosting feats you more or less ensure an alchemist will focus on one or two seed types (/elements) and only branching out slightly to stay somewhat verastile should the need arise.

Then we have the three styles of alchemy, western, eastern and grand arcana*. We could make either one class for each style (a'la incarnums incarnate, totemist etc... ) or one class that can/must choose a style at X level a'la D&D Ranger. Both approaches have their pros and cons.

*I think the Grand arcana may have some basis in the manga too, just not all that obvious. This is my thoughts: 1) FMAlchemy in the east and west originally came from a country in between via the 'two sages': Father and Hoenheim.
2) Grand Arcana (or at least the stuff Scars brother studied in the manga) is an amalgam of western and eastern alchemy.
3) This means the Grand Arcana may be a reverse-engineered form of the original alchemical art practiced in the 'middle country' before its destruction.

Just some thoughts.

EDIT: I forgot to mention a few things.

Firts off to make the first step in the three-step process (understanding/indentification of material) easier and more intuitive I say all it requires is an appraise check for raw materials/crafted materials, heal check for stuff in living organisms, some form of knowledge check and/or a simple intelligence check. The DC could be set according to usefullness, cost, rarity or be completely arbitrary.

Secondly, when I mentioned the elemental seed types I forgot the basic creation/recomposition and destruction/decomposition types. I think it might be interesting to think of the mechanics of combine these with the elemental types.
For example we can take the 'blood to iron sword' transmutation.
1) you need to know blood contains iron and in what form (essentially rust). You use a Heal, knowledge or intelligence check against DC X. This is common knowledge so I suggest DC 10 (see untrained knowledge skills in the SRD) since by the 1900s most educated people would know this.
2) You need the decomposition seed (DC X) to break down the rust into iron. This is a rather simple reaction (basically just separating iron and oxygen) so I would say DC 5 (it would of course be higher for more complex compounds or other arbitrary limitation :smallwink:).
3) Recomposition of iron into sword. This should require the recomposition seed combined with an iron-type seed (the seed could be replaced by a craft (weaponsmithing) check to properly balance and strengthen the sword). Recompostion is a little trickier than decomposition, but since this is only iron and nothing else I would say DC 5 + DC of the relevant metal-type seed or (if using the craft skill) the DC to forge the sword (+/-X if we see the need to balance things).

Another example would be making a wooden wall to protect yourself:
1) Identify the compound, this could be a knowledge (nature) or intelligence check. Most wood is similar in structure so its a DC 5-10.
2) Decomposition is one of the three steps so I don't know if it could be jumped i this situation since you aren't really decomposing anything... no,wait. You must briefly liquidize part of the tree to make that shield. DC 5 (I think this should be subsumed into the step 3 DC really).
3) Use the recomposition seed and a woood/plant-type seed (or earth if you don't like the 'wood element' concept) to extend the shield in front of you and return it to solid form. Simple DC 5 + wood-type seed DC.


While writing this I realized the decomposition/recomposition seds are used in every single transmutation. This gave me the idea the Decomposition and recomposition are fundamental seeds that all alchemists know, but they can only accomplish basic effects, alike Al fixing the radio in the first few pages of the manga, he would use only the recomposition seed (like the 'make whole' spell). Scars arm would only use the decomposition seed, but Uberpowered.
This could mean we may have two types of seeds: Fundamentals (decomposition/recomposition) and elements (a number of seeds each tied to an element-type, like spell schools).
Or it could mean we may have eight seed-types that can be combined: fire, earth, water, air, metal, wood/plant, decomposition, recomposition.

I feel I'm on to something here, but it doesn't really sound right. I swear I'm missing something obvious, but that's what the community is for eh?

[Fizban]

My most humble apologies to anyone who followed the link I gave above, definitely not what I meant to post. Here is the correct link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=498216 . Essentially it's a warlock, with a few different casting components (including the alchemy diagram), and a bunch of alchemy themed invocations. They also added a 5th level of invocations, so you can restrict some to the highest levels. Rules for automail and some other things are farther down, you have to dredge the whole thread to find everything as it's a little unfinished, but the main class is done. I look forward to whatever you guys come up with.

[Norr]

I thought things through, and came up with an idea. Decomposition and recomposition is integral to all alchemical transmutations. Therefore I thought that an 'elemental-type' seed will automatically include de/recomposition as part of its execution. However, the Decomposition and recomposition seeds will also exist separately since they, can be used separately from other seeds. The simplest decomposition DCs start at 5.
Decomposition is always the second step, so decomposition seeds generally have a low DC. Recomposition is always the third step, so it will always work with 'decomposed' materials. All Recomposition seeds have a slightly higher DC than decomposition seeds because some form of decomposition is always present in a recomposition transmutation. The simplest recomposition DCs start at 10.
Elemental seeds always include both decomposition and recomposition, so they have again higher DCs than the previous two. The simplest Elemental DCs start at 15.

Basically, this means all seeds are DC5 and combining them means cumulative DCs. Decomposition can be used alone at DC5. Recomposition must be used with decomposition, making their combined DC 10. Elemental seeds are also DC5, but can only be used with both decomposition and recomposition, making their combined DC 15.
Now, combining two elemental seeds are tricky because it involves de- and recomposition of two unrelated elements so there are a umber of approaches we can take:
1) de/recomposition works smoothly for both elements, making a two-element combination DC 20 (DC 15 for the first element +5 for every additional elemental seed). You basically decompose element 1 somewhat and recompose it into element 2.
2) Decomposing the first element far enough to be rebuilt as another is tricky, and the DC increase by 10 every time you use more than one elemental seed for a single transmutation (DC 15 for the first element +10 for every additional elemental seed).
3) As above, but recomposition from such an atomic level is also tricky, and the DC instead increase by 15 (DC 15 for the first element +15 for every additional elemental seed).

Now, when using an elemental seed to create an effect, the alchemist is assumed to go through both analysis, decomposition and recomposition to create a result. Note that elemental seeds are for complicated transmutations, like changing one material into another (iron to copper*, coal into diamond**, base metals into alloys*, limestone into bone**, coal into gold*** etc) while recomposition seeds can change an object into another similar object (steel automail plate into a steel blade, wooden log into wooden plank, broken radio into whole radio etc). Of course, decomposition seeds brakes particular (ha ha) and molecular bonds, separating materials into their constituent elements. This is of course a very crude but effective way to kill things but is frowned upon by the alchemical community, especially when used on humans since it then dangerously resembles human transmutation.

*Requires metal seed.
**Requires earth seed.
***Requires both earth and metal seed, my guess is DC 20-30 (see above).

One problem I see right now is Roy Mustang since even thought he is known as the 'fire alchemist' the only seed he would need is the air seed to increase the concentration of flammable gases in the target area. The rest is up to his flamecloth gloves or a handy lighter.
Of course, that way the DC would be lower than combining the fire and air seeds, so I guess it makes some sense...

There also seems to be a lack of fluff in general at the moment, but we are still in the early stages of this discussion. I usually see the fluff come along with the crunch, since fluff explains the crunch mostly, rather than inspire it (which also happens, of course).


Seeing as to how edward and the other alchemists fight in the series I would guess they have a medium attack bonus (as cleric) and a rather high dexterity (dodging much). I also think they would have good reflex saves to evade enemy transmutaions (of course, that may just be a high AC, and they all fight unarmoured so... some kind of monk AC?)

[black dragoon]

Don't forget this is in D20 modern which explains the higher than normal defense. I like the concept you've proposed we'll need to streamline the process a little bit to reduce headaches but that'll work itself out I hope.
As for the gate/door that like the world itself is changed. If you look at my write-up I never mention Amestris,lior etc. and used only real-world nations. I still will have the Elrics and Scar and all the Gang but many will have come from real-world nations that correspond to the FMA counterparts. the only exception may be Ishbahl which seems to have no true counterpart. As for the Gate that one's going to be a mash-up. I picture the gate itself still as a massive black doorway but, Insribed upon it will be a transmutation circle involving the tree of Sepiroth. Mr. Truth will lurk in the space between the doors and still offer up something to the alchemist. As for Father and hiss hommunculi well....
I have my plans for these creatures...:smallwink:
I already want the Pcs to have to fight homunculi but just the seven won't do. So I propose this. Only a entity such as Father can create 'true' Homunculi. However, human allies to him can create lesser creatures known as vices. These though nominally weaker than the 'true' Homuncs and don't have a Philosopher's Stone within them and rather use the Red Water to exist. I'll start working over how these things work till then let's get back to actually statting out the class itself.

[Norr]

I don't have much (read 'none') experience with D20 modern. Is there some place I can get a basic overview of the system? It will really help with class design if I know what you are talking about.

Concerning the gate and stuff: I saw the new FMA world thread you made. I'm guessing most of the world-specific things will got here.

And yes, I know the system of elemental arrays (seeds) need more thought, but then again, we're still in the beginning of this project.

[black dragoon]

The Best I can offer is the D20 modern hypertext SRD you find through google. On the matter of Roy Mustang.
I really get the feeling there shouldn't be a Fire Set primarily because Fire is energy and doesn't have a true material prescence. Rather sub fire with Metal and add in Wood,Creation,and Destruction so that our list looks like this.
Elemental Seeds:
Air-this seed deals with gasous matter such as Oxegen,Ammonia etc.
Water - liquids,water etc..
Earth- Minerals such as quartz and saltpeter, not pure elements however.
Metal- Pure metals and there alloys
Wood- A catch-all for organic material such carbon compounds and tissues
Creation-The restructure of materials I.E. insto-repair
Destruction- The breakdown of materials I.E.-Scar.
BTW thanks for Link!:smallsmile:

[Norr]

BTW thanks for Link!

Much obliged :smallbiggrin:

Yes, I thought there was something fishy with the fire array, I thought 'adding or removing energy in the form of heat' but it felt... ungraspable somehow. Your lineup pretty much covers it.
Roy Mustang must be known as the 'fire alchemist' because his specialty is manipulating flammable gases. He is actually (by our preliminary system) an outstanding air array specialist.
There really should be focus feats for different arrays, Roy probably has one for flammable gases or something.

Also, since we use D20 modern as a base, should we create the alchemist as a single base class of 10 levels and then build on that with advanced classes, or should we use the D&D approach of a 20 level base class and a number of prestige classes?
The first approach means most alchemists will be the same 'till level 10 after which they will branch out with eastern/xingese, western/amestrian and grand arcana alchemy.
The second approach allows for a different base class for each type of alchemy and optional prestige classes like 'state alchemist', 'Ishbalan avenger (Scar)', 'dog of the military', 'lifestitcher (chimera alchemist)' etc.
Or something completely different, I'm sure the community can work something out.

Oh, and thanks for the srd tip. My google-fu is weak. :smallsigh:

EDIT: I've read a bit into the D20 modern srd, and I think a possible way to do the classes is this:
At least two base classes: eastern and western alchemist. Advanced classes follows with further specialisation. Grand Arcana alchemist could be a prestige class (prerequisites means the character essentially needs two classes for qualification).
Eastern alchemist would focus on a high wisdom score (feel the flow), healing and have ranged capabilities. Essentially more support than combat, but not without combat options.
Western alchemy would focus on a high intelligence score (know thy components) and more offensive transmutations. Suport is possible, but the taboo of human transmutation might limit healing options.

Some advanced classes would focus on a particular array type and may become state alchemists. There should also be some form of combat/soldier alchemist considering the elric brothers' aptitude forcombat. I think becoming some form of state alchemist/dog of the military might best be handled by joining an organisation in-game, rather han a special advanced class since all state alchemists/dogs of the military are already specialists in one way or another.

Learning the Grand Arcana could somewhat like an alchemists Archmage, allowing yyou to focus on one single array type (or even a single array effect, for a narrower class) and superpower it. Scar would be a Grand Arcana user with focus on a superpowered decomposition array.
Though I'm a bit lost at how we should treat Scar, since he technically isn't an alchemist, his brother were. Scar just happen to have his brothers arm attatched to him.

EDIT AGAIN: Of course, we could just make one base alchemy class and give it access to eastern and western talent trees.

Another EDIT: I've browsed the skills in the SRD, and I think an alchemist should be able to correctly identify most compounds with a knowlegde (physical sciences) check, although a knowledge (life sciences) check might be required for some materials.

[black dragoon]

I like the east/west 10-level base class idea best so far. It works with the concept that each alchemist 'knows the basics' but normally have particular areas they specialize in. Also, why not make each element into a talent set that opens up several skill options to a player and also eases the adv. classes issue. It also resolves the issue of grand arcana in certain aspects because this way you need to take the classes (at least a little) of both to take on the blended alchemy. And multiclassing such as that is really If I remeber right how most modern Prestige classes work. I'll post a rough list of the alchemy Base,adv. and prestige classes in their proper section soon.

[Norr]

I agree, that will separate the two classes and still allow them to do their thing. A talent tree for each array type would also be a goodie, with the first talent being some small-time but useful transmutation and then powering up/allowing for new options with each additional step.

Since eastern and western are going top be two different classes, we need to define their abilities, like BAB, saves and class defence. Should both classes be similar or should they be different from one another?

The state alchemists are basically alchemy soldiers, so I think their BAB and fortitude should be somewhat elevated, but concerning eastern and western base alchemists I haven't seen enough of them to extrapolate those stats. I mean, the only non-state alchemist I've seen in the western art is doctor marco, and the only eastern I've seen ever is Mei (with her killer panda).

[black dragoon]

For now I think the class progressions should breakdown like this.
Westies have a Strong Hero BAB, High fort, low Will and avg. reflex with a avg skill progression.
Easters have a Dedicated BAB and Saves and a fast hero skill progression. good so far?

Also I'll post this again I invite any and everyone willing to help Norr and myself in this project.:smallbiggrin:

[Norr]

For now I think the class progressions should breakdown like this.
Westies have a Strong Hero BAB, High fort, low Will and avg. reflex with a avg skill progression.
Easters have a Dedicated BAB and Saves and a fast hero skill progression. good so far?

Those BABs might look a tad powerful, but that all depends on how powerful we make the alchemical transmutations. Paladins and rangers have low spellcasting abilities to match their High BAB, Bards, psychic warriors and benders (the latter the ones we base this system on) have medium BAB and medium spellcasting, and high-casters have low BAB.
Now, I know most of these examples are D&D-related, and we do D20 modern here, so I'm not sure what to think balance-wise, because I haven't got anything to compare with (since I don't own urban arcana).

I would personally have set both of those BABs one step lower, but then again the mechanics of Arrays might carry penalties (you have to draw the diagram after all) that make the high BAB very necessary for the alchemists survival.

Tell you what, stick with the two classes as you have currently written them, and if it is later revealed their BAB is too high, you can lower it then. This is all about moving around the grains a few at a time 'till you have all equal piles.

Expanding on that, how does this look?

I think it's a bit odd with high, low and average saves, since the classes in the srd doesn't have them. Therefore I suggest only two different save levels (which I have used below).


Western Alchemist
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Defence|Reputation

1st|
+0|
+1|
+1|
+0|Talent|+1|+1

2nd|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bonus feat|+2|+1

3rd|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+1|Talent|+2|+1

4th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+1|Bonus feat|+3|+2

5th|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Talent|+3|+2

6th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+2|Bonus feat|+3|+2

7th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+2|Talent|+4|+3

8th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+2|Bonus feat|+4|+3

9th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+3|Talent|+4|+3

10th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+3|Bonus feat|+5|+4[/table]

Primary ability: Intelligence

Skills: 3+int modifier. Since the westie will have a high intelligence they will probably still have equal or more skill points than the average eastie.

Eastern Alchemist
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Defence|Reputation

1st|
+0|
+1|
+0|
+1|Talent|+3|+1

2nd|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Bonus feat|+4|+1

3rd|
+1|
+2|
+1|
+2|Talent|+4|+1

4th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+2|Bonus feat|+5|+2

5th|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Talent|+5|+2

6th|
+3|
+3|
+2|
+3|Bonus feat|+6|+2

7th|
+3|
+4|
+2|
+4|Talent|+6|+3

8th|
+4|
+4|
+2|
+4|Bonus feat|+7|+3

9th|
+4|
+4|
+3|
+4|Talent|+7|+3

10th|
+5|
+5|
+3|
+5|Bonus feat|+8|+4[/table]

Primary ability: Wisdom

Skills: 5+int modifier

You might notice that the easterner is weaker in both BAB and defence than the westerner. I assume we will remedy this with a more powerful talent tree. Making both classes defence as the westernes is also an option.
Another option is to give both classes strong hero or fast hero defence and smart hero or Dedicated hero BAB, not all westerners are combat machines.
Instead I suggest taking advanced classes with high BAB (National alchemist is one I assume). This is a bit hard to adjucate since most of the state alchemists are also array specialists. I would guess the dogs of the military have high BAB while array specialists have medium, so as to not make the would-be soldiers have sub-par combat skill.

Of course these are all just thoughts. We could also remedy the easternes lack of high BAB by giving them fast hero defence, adding a little ninja dodge training to their repertoir. If we go with the niches mentioned in the class thread this is a good way to keep the theme and still not have to adjust the power of their talent trees. I mean, almost every singe easterner we've seen has ninja moves of some sort. In fact, I think I will implement them immediately and you just have to scream if it doesn't look good... which it doesn't... Ah, well.

You might get an idea or another reading this anyway. Remember, neither of these classes can be more or less powerful than the existing base classes either.

EDIT: I changed the BAB for both classes to reflect Black Dragoons suggestion in post #33.

[black dragoon]

I like your solution of lowering the BAB. I may have figured a bit to much power in but what you have brewed up will work very nicley. Perhaps the Array specialists should have a Med. BAB it allows for a decent offense and still allows for the Eastie/Westies to seem like a run of the mill spellchucker at first glance. Also I noted something important about Eastie alchemy they don't need just one array. Alchemy for them is like a current and two circles allow for the redirection of ambient Chi. that may prove to have some interesting mechanics.:smallsigh:

[Rappy]

I think the concept of a twin-set Eastern and Western alchemist as the basis is a good concept. The talent trees, of course, could focus beyond and into the varied forms of alchemical specialization that have existed. Now comes my contribution of something to think about: what kind of stuff does it take to create chimerae? What kind of DCs and materials are you shucking to create a beastly chimera such as the Lior (literal) chimera, a medium-fuse chimera such as Tucker, or a lesser chimera such as the "animal crew"? I actually did create d20 Modern versions of both automail and the blood seal, if you wish to see.

[black dragoon]

Cool I'd like to see those. Also On chimeras. You may have had it backwards. Low style Chimeras seem like the ones that are just smashed together while high quality chimera are the beast-men. I know at least for the beast-men we could use the stats for Moreus from D20 modern with a little tinkering. I've been pondering these for a time as well and will begin making the basic seed sets soon. at least fluff-wise I'm a terrible mechanic.:smalltongue:

[Norr]

@ Rappy: First off, we've had the idea of going with a single base class and different talent trees for eastern/western. However, it would be hadr separating the two diciplines. Having a single base class would make it relatively simple to dabble in both diciplines, and that would make the Grand Arcana prestige class a bit abundant since it is essentially the result of blening the different diciplines.
By making two different base classes we don't have to worry about eastern/western-specific abilities to be used by the wrong class.
Of course, I might just be misinterpreting your post. Bear with me.

I don't know if Black dragoon have any ideas for chimaeras yet, but my first thought regarding materials would be at least the creatures to be fused. Also, in the manga Tucker had chimaeras as his specialty so I guess you could fuse animals without much additional materials but getting a working chimaera would be difficult and require complicated arrays.
Making human/animal chimaeras is also possible (again, Tucker did it in the manga) but it would require red stones or red water to allow the chimaera to retain its soul and mental faculties. (red stones and red water only exist in the anime by the way, in the manga all such stones are philosophers stones and can be liquid if desired (Dr Marco had one)).

Also: we would very much like to see your automail/blood seal homebrews.

@ Black dragoon: Well, Mei chan usually uses just one array for impromptu transmutations and throw dagger-shurikens to mark the second one, but she would definately need two scribed arrays to avoid the knife-chucking. She also makes an excellent trapper as long as she is within line-of-sight of her end-user arrays (see the last-or-so chapters in the link I sent you).
I thought maybe a talent tree to allow for ranged alchemy:

Eastern Alchemist:
Ranged Alchemy Talent Tree

By sensing the flow of chi, the Eastern Alchemist can perform alchemy at range.

Ranged Alchemy (trap array):
The Eastern Alchemist may scribe an array on the surface of any nonliving material to be transmuted, this will be called the Reciever array. The Eastern Alchemist may then scribe another array, called the Transmitter array, on any surface (which does not have to match the surface material of the Reciever array). Whenever the Eastern Alchemist makes a transmutation with the Transmitter array and has line of sight to the Reciever array, the effect is as if thought she had used the Reciever array to transmute the material it is scribed on. The reciever array must be scribed to include any specific arrays to be used in the transmutation. One Transmitter array can be linked to a number of reciever arrays equal to the Eastern Alchemists wisdom modifier (minimum one). Maximum range 150 ft.
Example: Eastern Alchemist Ho Chang scribes a decomposition array on the middle of a narrow stone bridge. She then hides in a nearby ruined house and scribes a transmitter array on a wooden wall besides a window. She does not have to wait long for her pursuers to reach the bridge and conclude she has crossed it not long ago. While Chang watches, the soldiers takes off over the bridge. As her pursuers walks closer to the bridges center they discover the array she scribed. Before they can turn and flee Chang puts her hands on the Transmitter array and activates an explosive decomposition centered on the reciever array, blowing the brigde and showering the closest pursuer in sharp stone shrapnel.
Basically, this feat allows an Eastern Alchemist to transmute by remote control as long as she has line of sight to the Reciever.

Improved Ranged Alchemy (dart array):
This talent works like Ranged Alchemy (trap array), but with additional features: To use the dart array a Transmitter array must first be scribed and one alchemical dart* driven into each of the cardinal points**. An equal number of alchemical darts must then be thrown at the target area to form a Reciever array. When this is successfully accomplished the Reciever array may be activated by the Transmitter array as normal. The transmitter array must be scribed to include any specific arrays to be used in the transmutation. Maximum range 150 ft.
** The number of cardinal points depends on your personal array, usually five or six.
Example: Mei chan is visiting a town when a nearby mine entrance collapse, along with the bridge spanning the 15 ft chasmbetween it and the rescuers. Mei scribes a transmitter array (in the form of a pentagramic recomposition array) on the ground next to the chasm and drives five alchemical darts into its cardinal points. She then throws an additional five alchemical darts (as a full-round action) onto the fallen rocks that blocks the mine entrance. She then places her hands on the transmitter array and activates a recomposition on the reciever darts-array, clearing up the mine entrance, repairing the bridge and allowing the trapped miners to escape (for those of you that haven't read the manga, this actually happened).

Prerequisite: Ranged Alchemy (trap array).

Advanced Ranged Alchemy (chi array):
This works like Improved Ranged Alchemy (dart array) except the alchemical darts are no longer necessary, the Eastern Alchemist follows the flow of Chi to create a Reciever array wherever desired. To use this ability a Transmitter array must first be scribed. Then, as a full-round action, the Eastern Alchemist activates the Transmitter array, creates a reciever array at a desired point and initiates the transmutation, as if she had used a trap array. The transmitter array must be scribed to include any specific arrays to be used in the transmutation. This ability has a maximum range of 60 feet and does not require line of sight. Activating this ability costs one action point.

Prerequisites: Ranged Alchemy (trap array), Improved Ranged Alchemy (dart array).

The first and second talents are actually used in the manga by Mei. The third is an extrapolation of the first two which I thought might be cool.

*New item: Alchemical darts
{table=head]Name|Damage|Critical|Type|Range increment|Rate of fire|Size|Weight|Purchase DC|Restriction

Alchemical dart (archaic)|
1|
20|
piercing|
30 ft|
Special|
tiny|
0,25 lb|
DC 6|
Res (+2)[/table]

Alchemical dart
A single-pointed relative of the shuriken, these darts have been specially treated for use by Eastern Alchemists, they are not particularly sharp and not intended for combat. Their primary purpose is channeling the chi of an alchemical transmitter array into any material, and so ignore 20 points of hardness, allowing them to stick in solid rock or even metal.
Since alchemists usually need to throw many darts to create a reciever array, Alchemical darts are light and aerodynamic, allowing up to six of them to be thrown as a full-round action.
Alchemical darts require the archaic weapons proficiency feat. However, alchemists with the Ranged alchemy (dart array) talent are automatically considered proficient in their use. Nonproficient users cannot throw more than one dart per attack they are normally allowed.
An alchemical dart can, like a shuriken, be drawn as a free action.
An alchemical dart is always mastercraft, providing a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

EDIT: Assuming I've got this at least partially right, Mei would have to be around level 5 (three talents, one for learning recomposition and two for ranged alchemy). I would suggest having alchemists automatically know at least one basic array type for de- and recomposition, using talents to further increase the array-types known. The alchemist need a very basic attack and defence array, and talent trees can further increase utility and power and/or teach additional array types.
And to avoid confusion, this is the terminology I use:
Array type: like schools of magic; , re and decomposition, metal, wood, air, water etc
Array: 'spells' or seeds. The stuff you use to get specific effects.

The above talk about talents anlso gave me an idea. Each ten-level class have a total of five talent-choices right? that may seem a bit limiting to an alchemist (who are rather well-rounded in the manga and anime).
So I thought of something like Array levels in each array type talent tree:
Basic: easy seeds with low DCs. Make a hole in a wall, change the shape of a simple object.
Intermediate: More advanced effects with medium DCs. Simple mechanical creations, fix a broken radio, create working hinges for a door, mix two metals to create an alloy.
Advanced: Difficult and complex effects with a high DC. Change a portion of a metal into another metal and alloy the two, create an automatic rifle from scrap metal, graft a weapon into your arm etc

More advanced levels would give access to more complex and powerful seeds, although the basic seeds can be powered up by voluntarily increasing their check DC.
I also have an idea about the slchemy skill and the checks needed for transmutations, but I'll wait a bit and see if any better ideas come up.

[black dragoon]

Hrm...Mabye we should give these alchemists a base set of practical seeds to start with for example Re/decoposition are automatically given. Other elements and fancier tricks can be accessed through talents and these can improved by feats. Sounds cool?
Also I think that the SEVEN homunculi should be templates mabye the vices as well it seems to fit them the best and works mechanicly closest to the anime/manga

[Norr]

"Alchemy is a science, and we are the scientists."
- Evan lolric

"How are you supposed to bake a cake if you cannot even reconstruct a ball bearing?"
- Evans teacher


There are three basic steps to alchemical transmutations: Analysis, Decomposition and Recomposition. All alchemists know these most fundamental techniques.
(Inspired from the bending threads we base this system on)

Using a seed involves scribing an array on the target and then placing one or both hands on the array to activate it. Scribing an array is a full-round action (DC +0), a standard action (DC +5) or a move action (DC +15). Scribing an array on a creature or animate object requires a touch attack and a +10 to the DC of scribing the array. Activating an array is a standard action and requires a touch attack. Scribing an array requires Alchemy checks against a DC determined by the seeds involved and with the above modifiers.


What I've written above is a rather simple way of dealing with transmutations. Basically, you determine the success of your trasmuattion by how well you scribe your array. Activating the array is the easy part. Compare this with building a machine (scribing the array) and flicking the 'on' switch (Transmute). This also means you can scribe an array ahead of time, taking 10 on the check, and then easily activate it when you have need of it. The Array specialists all have pre-scribed arrays somewhere about them (Roy on his gloves, Armstrong on his knuckles) that they use over and over again with little or no effort.
Also, how about clinging for dear life to the neck of an iron golem while scribing a decomposition array on it, it'll be hard (especially if you want it to be a really damaging array) but possible to someone who scribes these things for a living.
NOTE: Alchemical transmutations are rarely temporary. Therefore, any change brought about by a transmutation circle (also referred to as an 'array') is permanent unless otherwise specified.

Also, some of the seeds might seem a bit powerful, but remember if we base alchemy on a skill an alchemist can only have ((level+3)+int bonus+misc)+D20 on his skill rolls. At 1st level this could be ((1+3)+2 int+3 feat) = 9. This gives them a 45% chance of meeting DC 20, which is needed to do 1d6 points of damage to an inanimate object in 1 round. A moving target would be DC 25, in which case a full round action could be used to scribe the array (DC 15) and activate it on the following round for 1d6 damage (or DC 20 for 2d6, making it an average of 1d6 damage/round).
Also, some arrays could be destroyed as a result of the transmutation. Below, the 'damage' array could be one such array, since it destroys the surface it is scribed on (however, one could argue that the damage is done internally, and the array is therefore intact for another go). As for the 'wall' seed, I would say the array is destroyed after one use, since the wall basically cuts the array in half. The 'stabbity' array could be reusable if the spikes are carefully retracted (full-round action?) by the alchemist. Otherwise the spkes could be frozen in place to block a passage or create difficult terrain. These possibilities are something to think about when using alchemy.

Decomposition (eastern, western)
Base DC: 5
You know the most basic art of taking stuff apart.
Damage: You perform a crude decomposition of the target material, dealing moderate damage to it. This may affect one living creature or one 5ft cube of an inanimate structure larger than one 5ft cube. The damage is 1d6 at DC 5 and increase by 1d6 for every +5 you add to the DC. Damage ignores an objects hardness and a creatures damage reduction if the material is correctly identified.
Purify: You reduce an amalgam of materials to their constituent parts, ending up with two or more piles of powdered materials. The DC is 5 for an amalgam of two materials and increase by 5 for every additional material to be separated. You can choose to only purify one material from a compound of 4 or more, but doing so increase the DC by 5.
Notation: This might seem a tad powerful, but remember the DC for doing this to a creature in combat in one round would be 5 (=1d6 damage) +15 (scribe as a move action) +10 (scribe on moving creature) = 30 for a 1st level alchemist. You need strategy, and this isn't really a combat power anyway.


Recomposition (eastern, western)
Base DC: variable
You know the most basic art of putting stuff together and changing the shape of stuff.
Repair (base DC 5): You alter the form of something that is broken, re-knitting its structure into its previous condition. You replicate the effects of the spell Mending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm) with a range of touch. By increasing the DC by 10, you can replicate the effects of the spell Make Whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) with a range of touch. If you beat the DC of Make Whole by 10 or more, the item you repair is restored to perfect condition. When appemting to sell sych an item, its purchase DC is it original DC -2, not -3.
Stabbity-stab (base DC 10): You partially decompose and rescompose a solid material, creating a sharp pseudopod allowing you to attack at range. You create a long tentacle-like spike that you use to attack your enemies. The spike has a range of 10 ft and can deal 1d8+X damage to any opponent within its reach. The spike attacks using the alchemists base attack bonus + the alchemists primary mental ability score bonus and deals extra damage (the X above) equal to the alchemists primary mental ability score bonus (intelligence for westerners, wisdom for easterners). Creating additional spikes at the same time adds +5 to the DC per additional spike. By adding +5 to the DC per created spike their size increase by one category, increasning the damage to 1d10, reach to 15 ft and giving an additional +2 bonus to damage.
When formed each spike attacks immediately and at the alchemists command, making one attack if the alchemists BAB is 5 or less, two if it is 6-10, 3 if it is 11-15 or four if it is 16-20.
A spike can also be used for trip attempts. It is then treated as a medium creature with a strength bonus equal to the alchemists primary mental ability score (see above). If the alchemist have the improved trip feat, the spike is treated as also having it. A Spike that has been increased in size gain a +4 bonus to trip attempts in addition to its +4 to effective strength score.
The spikes remain as long as the alchemist choose to maintain the transmutaion, which is a full-round action.
Spikes can do piercing, slashing or bludgeoning damage at any one time, as desired by the controlling alchemist. Changing damage type is a free action. An alchemist can make attacks of opportunity with his spikes, but no matter how many spikes he has, he still cannot make more than one attack of opportunity each round (which can be increased by the combat reflexes feat as normal).
Notation: The Stabbity-stab seed can seem a little difficult to keep track of, so I'll try to summarize its use in some examples.

Ex 1: Creating one spike in one full round would be 10 (one spike) + 15 (scribe as a move action) = DC 25. Assuming a 3rd level western alchemist the spike would then make one attack against an opponent within reach at BAB 2 + int bonus, dealing 1d8+int bonus damage. If the westie was 8th level, the spike would instead have attacked twice. If the westie choose to keep concentrating on the transmutation on the next round it will attack again.

Ex 2: Creating two large spikes in two rounds is 10 (base DC) + 5 (+1 spike) + 10 (+size on both spikes) + 0 (scribe as a full-round action, activate as standard action next round) = DC 25.
Assuming a 3rd level western alchemist the spikes would immediately attack once each at BAB 2 + int bonus + 2 (effective str increase) and do 1d10+int bonus+2 damage. If the westie was 8th level, the spikes would instead attack twive each at BAB 6/1 + int bonus + 2 (effective str increase), for a total of four attacks. If the westie choose to keep concentrating on the transmutation on the next round the spikes will attack again. With a little preparation and strategy you get better results.

Ex 3: A 4th level eastie is surrounded by two street thugs. By virtue of her training, she has ((level(4)+3) +3 wis bonus +3 skill focus) =13 in her Alchemy skill. To ward off the thugs she considers quickly scribing a stabbity-stab array to create two tentacles. The DC would be 10 (base) + 5 (+1 spike) + 15 (scribe as a move action) = 30. 15% chance of success. It's not ideal but its a chance she'll have to take. Luckily, she has the heroic surge feat, and decides to use it. She scribes the array as a full-round action, reducing the DC by 15, to 15. A DC 15 is automatic success, so she adds two extra spikes (+10 to DC). Her target DC is now 25, a 40% chance of success. After scribing the array, she uses an action point to activate Heroic Surge, gaining a standard action to activate her array. Four spikes shoot out from the transmutations circle and immediately attack, forcing the thugs to flee or be ripped apart.

Ex 4: an 8th level western alchemist is about to come head-to-head with a tough hero, but he needs some time to prepare. He uses a move action to take cover in an alley, and takes a standard action to scribe a stabbity-stab array with one large and one small spike. The DC would be 10 (base) + 5 (+1 spike) + 5 (+size on 1 spike) + 5 (scribe as a standard action) = 25.
He has (level(8) + 3) + 3 int + 3 feat = 17. 60% chance of success.
Next round he readies an action to activate the array when the tough hero comes around the corner. Said and done, the westie uses the large tentacle to trip the tough hero (the spike has an effective strength bonus of 3 (int) + 2 (large size str bonus) + 4 (size bonus) = 9 (effective str of 28)). The westie has the Improved Trip feat, so the first spike automatically attacks the prone opponent and then get an additional attack from the alchemists high BAB. The Alchemist cannot attack with the second smaller spike since the oppoenent is beyond its reach. The next round the tough hero get on his feet, and the alchemist decides to save his attack of opportunity for later. As the Tough hero moves toward the alchemist (he was 15 ft away when he was tripped) he provokes an attack of opportunity for moving and is tripped again, still in the same square as before, and again smacked an additional time by the large spike. Realizing he's in over his ears, the tough hero retreats the next round.

Wall of [insert material here] (base DC 5): You reshape the materials at hand into something you can hide behind. You create a 5 by 5 feet large wall along one of the borders of your square. This wall is 1 inch thick plus one additional inch for every 5 points your check beats the arrays DC. For every +5 added to the DC the wall extends an additional 5 feet in any direction, including up. However, if the walls height in squares is more than its thickness in inches or its width in squares, the wall is treated as having half hp due to the stresses on the internal structure.
Noation: This wall can be used to block a passage or protect against gunfire, it can also be used to make a kiddy pool.
Some DCs are:
1 square wall, 1 inch thick, full round scribe + activation: DC 5
1 square wall, 1 inch thick, move scribe + activation: DC 20
1 square wall, 2 inch thick, move scribe + activation: DC 25
3 squares wall, 1 inch thick, move scribe + activation: DC 30
4 squares wall, 3 inch thick, full round scribe + activation: DC 30

More to come...

Also, how should we define the terminology? Does a 'seed' refer to 'Decomposition' or its sub-thingie 'Damage' in the text above? Is there any difference between an array and a transmutation circle? Is Evan lolric serious about the cake? What does the Daleks look like under the armor?

[black dragoon]

I like it but number crunching is a bit much which will probaley be refined little by little as it grows and progresses and of course the names will probaley be changed for the sake of seriousness. I'll start making a basic list of seeds and also get one of the avatar guys to look it over to see if there is any major issues with our mechanics.

[Norr]

Yeah... I was feeling a little giddy wen I wrote that... :smalltongue:

Also, of those seeds, the 'stabbity-stap' (though I guess it should simply be named 'spike') one is more-or-less a cut-and-paste of the waterbenders 'tentacle' seed. Might be a bit too powerful for a D20 modern setting though.

Also, getting someone to look the system over is a great idea. I have a tendency to go more by intuition than balance knowledge when creating stuff (like my PrCs and monsters :smallsigh:) So I'm not to sure if the system as is is slanted somehow.