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Benejeseret
2008-05-26, 03:38 PM
Classic Do They Stack Question:

Lets say I have a lvl12+ Goliath with the Major Bloodline:Titan (SRD), now does his powerful build (allowing large weapons) stack with the Titan Bloodline Use oversized weapon (Ex).

Does this allow the goliath to use Huge Weapons at no penalty?


Similarly then with the Oversized two weapon fighting feat could he then be using two one-handed Huge weapons at only a -2 penalty?

Jack Mann
2008-05-26, 03:58 PM
Hmm. Well, at least in the SRD, the titan entry doesn't spell out exactly how the oversized weapon ability works. It simply says the titan can use a gargantuan warhammer without penalty. Without any guidelines, it's going to be up to your DM to decide how it works, and if it stacks with powerful build.

Dode
2008-05-26, 04:01 PM
With a literal reading of the ability, it means it doesn't matter if you're a Goliath or not, you can use a Gargantuan sized weapon without penalty (so long as it's a warhammer) :smallbiggrin:.

UserClone
2008-05-26, 04:09 PM
Of course, since a Titan is Huge to begin with, the notion of your DM allowing a (presumably medium or small) character to wield a Gargantuan ANYTHING is dubious at best...not to mention the absolute idiocy of trying to bring such a weapon to bear in a 10'/10'/60' hallway or somesuch.

Dode
2008-05-26, 04:18 PM
Of course, since a Titan is Huge to begin with, the notion of your DM allowing a (presumably medium or small) character to wield a Gargantuan ANYTHING is dubious at best...not to mention the absolute idiocy of trying to bring such a weapon to bear in a 10'/10'/60' hallway or somesuch.Come on man, a Medium-sized guy trying to wield a 15 foot anything is going to be comical no matter how you slice it (much less dualwielding stupidity), just roll with it.


Oversized Weapon (Ex)

A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.
Since Titan Bloodline (major) "gets this ability like the Titan", it is technically correct: The best kind of the correct.

UserClone
2008-05-26, 04:27 PM
Eh, it still won't fly. Technically, the game doesn't say you can't move once you die, but don't be surprised if your DM laughs when you try that, or sticking a guy's head in a bucket of water when he's dying and at -7hp in order to reset his hp to -1, or etc....

But my point was more that it would be impossible to wield the weapon in said corridor, unless you poke the baddies with it, in which case I, at least, would rule a -4 to attacks (for using an improvised weapon) and some serious reduction in the damage it does even if you hit (due to the fact that poking doesn't build up momentum like swinging would, and you're hitting with a wider surface anyway).

Can you do it, per RAW? Yes.
Is RAW the stupidest way to attempt an RPG like D&D? Absolutely.
Assuming your DM is not, in fact, a moron, can you do it in a game? Not likely.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-26, 05:10 PM
Eh, it still won't fly. Technically, the game doesn't say you can't move once you die, but don't be surprised if your DM laughs when you try that, or sticking a guy's head in a bucket of water when he's dying and at -7hp in order to reset his hp to -1, or etc....

How doesn't it fly? The bloodline gives you the ability, which works as the Titan's ability. The Titan's ability states that it can wield a gargantuan two-handed warhammer without penalty. Therefore, you can wield a gargantuan two-handed warhammer without penalty. Its not a case of the rules not saying you CAN'T do it, as the rules very clearly say you CAN.

FinalJustice
2008-05-26, 06:16 PM
But you still won't get reach, right? :smallbiggrin:

Dode
2008-05-26, 06:18 PM
Nope; I guess technically you're just hitting them with a 2 foot diameter pommel really hard

FMArthur
2008-05-26, 06:21 PM
Besides, I bet it falls somewhere above the character's listing for light loads. It might be a moot point if you're unable to wield it with any efficiency.

Cuddly
2008-05-26, 06:32 PM
Besides, I bet it falls somewhere above the character's listing for light loads. It might be a moot point if you're unable to wield it with any efficiency.

It only weighs 40 lbs, though. I'm not really sure what sort of problem that would cause, unless it was a pixie or something pathetic.

FMArthur
2008-05-26, 06:50 PM
Seriously? For a Gargantuan-sized two-handed weapon, that's obscenely light.

Cuddly
2008-05-26, 07:17 PM
5 lbs for a medium weapon x2 for large x2 for huge x2 gargantuan.

Unless it goes x2 x4 x8, in which case it's 320 lbs.

But then, if you're a goliath with a titan bloodline wielding a warhammer, you probably will have a pretty good str score. 19 str lets him use it, though he'd be at his heavy load (no big deal since he's probably in fullplate).

DrowVampyre
2008-05-27, 03:30 AM
Three words: titan...bloodline...pixie.

The_Snark
2008-05-27, 06:28 AM
Three words: titan...bloodline...pixie.

Saw a titan bloodline petal (Tiny fey) in a game here once. It was amusing.

Pyroconstruct
2008-05-27, 07:30 AM
Yep, that was my character, Black Thorn: http://www.playrpgonline.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=1898

Unfortunately, the game died :(

Incidentally, the weight-by-size-category scaling rules are unbelievably retarded. Using the Gargantuan Warhammer as an example: a Gargantuan warhammer sized for a Titan should, by the rules, weigh x8 what a normal humans one-handed warhammer does. We'll go ahead and say that a Large warhammer (2-handed for a human) weighs twice that, so 10 pounds (this is too low, but bear with me).

Titans are 25 feet tall, about 4x that of a human. To keep the warhammer properly proportioned, you need to quadruple ALL dimensions. So the height, depth, and length are multiplied by 4, hence mass (thus weight) is multiplied by x64. So it should actually weigh 640 pounds. In fact that first step (going from 1h to 2h for a human) should also be x8, not x2, but either way, it's silly.

If you go the other route - scale it up in size so that you get the "right" weight - it also gets silly. If the large-huge-gargantuan is only an x8 weight multiplier, then you multiply each dimension by only 2 (assuming you at least want to keep it the same shape as a warhammer). So the titan is wielding a weapon that is about 4 feet long. And it has to use both hands. WTF. Titans are 25 feet tall; this is going to look like you using both hands to swing a weapon that's under a foot in length. It could barely even fit both hands on the grip! Also, it's a tiny fraction of the Titan's lifting capacity, which is obscene thanks to their strength.

As a final note: Titan Bloodline very, very explicitly lets you wield a Gargantuan warhammer with 2 hands as any size of creature. It's not even questionable; that's the only interpretation of the ability. For the "OMG, the GM should randomly penalize players" crowd: First, read the whole Titan entry. Titans have the natural ability to Alter Self into a medium or small humanoid and still use a Gargantuan Warhammer 2-handed, so it actually sorta makes sense why their progeny can.

Second, the ability to give up 3 class levels for a few feats (one of which is actually good), small stat boosts, miscellaneous abilities, and this ability is not actually a good trade. Other than looking cool (or hilarious, if you do what I did and give a ridiculously small creature Titan Bloodline) it's actually not worth the trade. There's no reason to go out of your way to penalize players for this. I'd actually even allow Monkey Grip to let you use a Colossal Warhammer, because the combination might actually make the otherwise useless Monkey Grip helpful, and makes the bloodline more worth it.

Benejeseret
2008-05-27, 10:04 AM
And from the wording Powerful Build should not stack to give a collosal hammer as the Titan's Ex ability is a flat-out, not related to size, ability.

Still, gargantuan is better than my first interpretation of huge earlier, and no need to waste the level adjustment for goliath.



But, throw in monkey grip (2h -> 1h) and then throw on Oversized two weapon fighting and for a -6 to hit you are fighting with 2 gargantuan warhammers. Perhaps go down tempest a ways and alleviate that down to -4.

Pyroconstruct
2008-05-27, 10:20 AM
Stay away from Tempest. It's a trap! That class is really bad.

I think the idea of dual-wielding Gargantuan Warhammers is funny enough to be worth building, even if it is somewhat subpar. I can just imagine beating someone to death with absurdly oversized weapons while they scream "That isn't possible! You should be breaking your wrist just swinging one of those! How can you fight with them in this corridor?"


EDIT: Monkey Grip says "weapons one size category larger than you." So RAW, it doesn't combo with the Titan Bloodline ability, or anything else for that matter. As a DM, I would allow it, though, but just FYI, a lot of DMs who don't have a good idea of balance will think "OMG! Overpowered!" even if it is more amusing than truly effective.

Funkyodor
2008-05-27, 12:21 PM
If you do make a Dual Wielding Gargantuan Greathammer Titan bloodline PC, you've got to name him John Henry.

UserClone
2008-05-27, 06:23 PM
Can you do it, per RAW? Yes.
Is RAW the stupidest way to attempt an RPG like D&D? Absolutely.
Assuming your DM is not, in fact, a moron, can you do it in a game? Not likely.

I've never had to quote myself before, but it bears repeating.

The_Snark
2008-05-27, 09:08 PM
I've never had to quote myself before, but it bears repeating.

Not really. A DM could arbitrarily rule this, true, but in order to be consistent, they would also have to remove the hydra's ability to regenerate heads, because that's frankly pretty impossible; in fact, any creature with regeneration and fast healing is impossible. And dragons shouldn't possibly be able to fly at their weight, nor is there any feasible way for breath weapons to work... and skeleton's can't exist, because nothing is holding them together...

... yeah. Logic and mythological creatures simply do not mix. Titans are magical beings. So are their descendents.

Now, could a DM ask that their player not do this because it looks silly and breaks the mood? Sure. But realism isn't really a good way to justify doing that.