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View Full Version : Turning the Dragon Disciple into a Martial Adept Prestige Class



Xanamir
2008-05-26, 07:41 PM
Hello! Former lurker, posting for the first time. :smallsmile: I saw this thread a while back (sometime in March, I think) and was going to post on it, but didn't want to commit any acts of thread necromancy, so...

I've been playing around with the idea of the Dragon Disciple as a Martial Adept prestige class and I think I've got a modification that is pretty balanced, but I wanted to get some opinions before showing it to my DM (or introducing it to my own game.)

Here are my suggested changes:

-The Dragon Disciple's Bonus spells may be taken as Martial Maneuvers, provided the character already has at least 1 martial adept class (crusader, swordsage, or warblade.)
-The Dragon Disciple does not gain any additional readied maneuvers.
-The Dragon Disciple adds its total class level to the character's initiator level as though it were a true martial adept prestige class.
-The Dragon Disciple may swap out old maneuvers at each even level, with the same restrictions that apply to the base martial adept classes. (This one is a house rule that my current DM has made; he allows for all martial adept prestige classes that grant new maneuvers (Ruby Knight Vindicator, for example) to have the ability to swap out maneuvers at even levels the way the base classes do. I realize that, reading as written, martial prestige classes do not normally have this ability.)
-The Dragon Disciple can only choose and swap maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw Disciplines.

I picked those three disciplines since they felt the most "draconic." Desert Wind invokes the feelings of dragonfire and various flight-like effects, Stone Dragon represents the dragon's raw, brutal strength, and the Tiger Claw fits well with representing a dragon fighting with its own natural weapons, as well as the more primal, bestial way a dragon engages its foes.

Now, there are a few things I'm still uncertain about; in particular, the entry requirements. Considering the obviously strong synergy between the Dragon Disciple and a martial adept, my gut feeling is to leave the entry requirements exactly the same... the ranks in Knowledge Arcana won't be cheap to a dedicated Martial Adept, but not particularly crippling if the character invests in a bit of intelligence.

The requirement to cast spells spontaneously is another idea that I think should be left in, for two reasons; it still keeps some of the original flavor of the class (which I like; it makes it feel a bit special) and also, it balances the power again. Three levels of Dragon Devotee is my preferred way of entering the class, but that's just me :smallsmile: I do think, however, that relaxing the requirements and making them more generic "must know 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers" or whatever would open up the class -too- much and allow for abuse.

So, what do you all think? Anything I should change? My goal is to make the class attractive and interesting to martial adepts, but still roughly balanced in comparison to the other ToB prestige classes.

EDIT: Typo in the first draft; no idea what it said "The Dragon Disciple should not gain any additional maneuvers known," since that would defeat the entire point. Whoops. :smallredface:

Cuddly
2008-05-26, 07:55 PM
Here are my suggested changes:

-The Dragon Disciple's Bonus spells may be taken as Martial Maneuvers, provided the character already has at least 1 martial adept class (crusader, swordsage, or warblade.)
-The Dragon Disciple does not gain any additional readied maneuvers or additional maneuvers known.

These are contradictory.


-The Dragon Disciple adds its total class level to the character's initiator level as though it were a true martial adept prestige class.

Good.


]-The Dragon Disciple may swap out old maneuvers at each even level, with the same restrictions that apply to the base martial adept classes. (This one is a house rule that my current DM has made; he allows for all martial adept prestige classes that grant new maneuvers (Ruby Knight Vindicator, for example) to have the ability to swap out maneuvers at even levels the way the base classes do. I realize that, reading as written, martial prestige classes do not normally have this ability.)

Good.


-The Dragon Disciple can only choose and swap maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw Disciplines.

I picked those three disciplines since they felt the most "draconic." Desert Wind invokes the feelings of dragonfire and various flight-like effects, Stone Dragon represents the dragon's raw, brutal strength, and the Tiger Claw fits well with representing a dragon fighting with its own natural weapons, as well as the more primal, bestial way a dragon engages its foes.

May I recommend that you get the element of your associated dragon as damage, as opposed to fire? Fire damage is pretty lame.


Now, there are a few things I'm still uncertain about; in particular, the entry requirements. Considering the obviously strong synergy between the Dragon Disciple and a martial adept, my gut feeling is to leave the entry requirements exactly the same... the ranks in Knowledge Arcana won't be cheap to a dedicated Martial Adept, but not particularly crippling if the character invests in a bit of intelligence.

With 8 ranks required, either you have to multiclass into something that provides it as a class skill, then spend 2 points a level, or wait a long time before you qualify.


The requirement to cast spells spontaneously is another idea that I think should be left in, for two reasons; it still keeps some of the original flavor of the class (which I like; it makes it feel a bit special) and also, it balances the power again.

Balances what, though? You're pulling from some pretty weak maneuvers lists, have 3/4 BAB, and get some decent stat boosts. Nothing really earth shaking in its power- like say, polymorph or alter self cheese.


Three levels of Dragon Devotee is my preferred way of entering the class, but that's just me :smallsmile: I do think, however, that relaxing the requirements and making them more generic "must know 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers" or whatever would open up the class -too- much and allow for abuse.

What sort of abuse, exactly?


So, what do you all think? Anything I should change? My goal is to make the class attractive and interesting to martial adepts, but still roughly balanced in comparison to the other ToB prestige classes.

Well, with such nonsensical and painful entry requirements, there's really no reason to take it. Forcing a dip into sorc for one level that never ever does anything for you again isn't really that great. If you made the entry requirements more... appropriate for a martial adept, then it would be better. As it is, though, it's weak, since it forces a player to multiclass in ways that don't help him at all, but purposefully weaken him. Bad design, imo.

If it also progressed sorc casting, that could be sort of interesting.

Xanamir
2008-05-26, 08:21 PM
First, thanks for the feedback :smallsmile:



May I recommend that you get the element of your associated dragon as damage, as opposed to fire? Fire damage is pretty lame.


That's a really good idea, thank you. I'm definitely going to include that.



With 8 ranks required, either you have to multiclass into something that provides it as a class skill, then spend 2 points a level, or wait a long time before you qualify.


What would be a good compromise? Should it be something more accessible to a martial adept, such as one of its existing knowledges, or martial lore?



Balances what, though? You're pulling from some pretty weak maneuvers lists, have 3/4 BAB, and get some decent stat boosts. Nothing really earth shaking in its power- like say, polymorph or alter self cheese.


It's definitely not on the level of polymorph or alter self, and I'm not a math guy in the slightest, so I only have my own personal experience to go as to what "feels" powerful (which I realize is hopelessly unscientific.) The idea in my head though trying to prevent an already heavily optimized melee fighter to jump in and grab a huge strength bonus to go along with all its other abilities, at no real cost. But it sounds like I might have been too stringent.



Well, with such nonsensical and painful entry requirements, there's really no reason to take it. Forcing a dip into sorc for one level that never ever does anything for you again isn't really that great. If you made the entry requirements more... appropriate for a martial adept, then it would be better. As it is, though, it's weak, since it forces a player to multiclass in ways that don't help him at all, but purposefully weaken him. Bad design, imo.
If it also progressed sorc casting, that could be sort of interesting.

So, in your opinion, would taking out the casting requirement and allowing it to be earned through more melee-friendly skills and martial maneuver requirements (in the same vein as the other prestige classes) making it more viable? I did consider adding additional sorcerer abilities, but wasn't sure if that would be balanced, since it'd be a crazy strong martial adept with great hit dice and improved spell casting.

Again, thank you for the feedback! :smallsmile:

Cuddly
2008-05-26, 08:45 PM
Well, it depends what sort of games you play. If all the challenges can be overcome by trading blows with someone else, then yeah, it might be a little overpowered.

But on the other hand, if the enemies are flying and shooting things, or invisible, or use spells, or you're on a bridge over a pit of lava full of half red dragon tyrannosaurus's fighting a beholder, then that little bit of strength and extra AC isn't going to be too helpful.

The maneuvers' versatility are what make martial adept fun and useful, as opposed to an ubercharger that's only good if he can get a straight line at an enemy.

Dragon disciple would be AWESOME for a martial adept- cool flavor, all useful abilities, mitigation to their slight MADness, etc.

I would leave in the requirement for knowledge:arcana, but change it to 2 or 4 ranks. I would drop arcane spellcasting altogether. Keeping casting AND initiator progression in would make it too good. Unless it was total weaksauce progression, like 3/10, or just additional spells to cast.

As for dips, the str boosts come at the cost of increased BAB. To get +2 str, you lose 1 BAB, which reduces your two handed leap attack power attack damage by 4, while only increasing damage by 1.5.

Chronos
2008-05-26, 09:44 PM
If you leave in the spellcasting requirement, then the knowledge ranks aren't too big a deal: Most arcane casting classes (certainly sorcerers and bards) get Knowledge: Arcana anyway.