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View Full Version : Feeling a bit ripped off by the 4th preview...



Grynning
2008-05-27, 05:41 AM
So, after reading a bit about it here and on other forums, I decided to go pick this thing up and run it so we could get a sense of how to play 4th when it comes out. I was a bit taken aback at the price when I saw it at the store, 30 bucks is about what you'd pay for a full hardbound source book. So imagine my further dismay when I opened it up to find that the module is published on STAPLED TOGETHER MAGAZINE PAGES with NO %^#&*$ COVER.

Seriously? I know that's how the old D&D modules were back in the day, but considering I just dropped the equivalent of a meal, a six pack and a couple packs of smokes on this thing I expected a bit more.

Yes, the maps look good, the content seems ok and although I find myself wishing for rules clarifications already, I know it's only a preview, and hopefully the full version of the game will clear up any fuzziness. But I really wish WotC had bound the books in some way. I mean, I picked up my comics at the store at the same time I bought this thing. 4 or 5 comics stacked together would be about the same thickness as the two books in the set, and actually, looking at it, are on better quality paper. The comics are about 3 bucks each. I don't think that a set of maps and a little cardboard box are worth 15 more dollars.

I dunno, maybe I'm getting the old people "shocked by inflation" syndrome, but was anyone else let down by the printing quality?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:20 AM
Nope. From those who have played it, KoS is apparently barrels of fun. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Tengu
2008-05-27, 06:24 AM
Don't judge a book by its cover.

Or lack thereof.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 06:33 AM
I'm not judging the content here, I'm just saying that they could have at least given us a book that will be able to survive outside of a slipcover for a few years.

I mean, I know they're the company that made it big gouging people for playing cards (myself included) but even cheap-o companies put binding on their supplements.

Also, I've played plenty of adventures that were barrels of fun that didn't cost 30 dollars. Don't judge fun by price.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:39 AM
Don't judge fun by price.

Your attempt at countering fails, because I didn't even mention price. Rather, I asplained how it is apparently enormously fun.

leperkhaun
2008-05-27, 06:39 AM
I dont think its a big deal. Its something that is not meant to last. They put it together to give people a hint of how 4E will go, and it will be obsolete once the core books come out.

By then people wont need the preview anymore. Id rather not spend 2-3x as much for something ill use just a couple times with my friends to decide how i like where 4E is going.

There really isnt a reason to keep it, outside of 5 years down the line bieng able to go.... "yup this here is the 4E preview...you lads dont got nothing like this, but i do, yup." or if you collect these types of things, but if you do that, getting a binder or something isnt a hassle.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 06:46 AM
I dont think its a big deal. Its something that is not meant to last. They put it together to give people a hint of how 4E will go, and it will be obsolete once the core books come out.

By then people wont need the preview anymore. Id rather not spend 2-3x as much for something ill use just a couple times with my friends to decide how i like where 4E is going.

There really isnt a reason to keep it, outside of 5 years down the line bieng able to go.... "yup this here is the 4E preview...you lads dont got nothing like this, but i do, yup." or if you collect these types of things, but if you do that, getting a binder or something isnt a hassle.

If you're accepting that the thing is meant to be thrown away, how is it justified that it costs as much as a hardbound book that isn't?

I feel as if I'm being mis-understood here - I'm not saying it's not a good adventure, or that there's anything wrong with releasing a 4th edition preview adventure, and I'm fairly certain we'll have fun with it. What I'm saying is, I don't think the price was justified, given the cheap quality of the printing. If I'd known I was essentially getting an issue of Dragon, I wouldn't have dropped 30 bucks on it.

Edit: @AK - what I was trying to say is that how much something costs usually has little to do with how much fun it is. That's all.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:51 AM
Well, see, apparently that things ISN'T an issue of dragon. It seems really small, but according to reports, it takes a ton of sessions to finish. Which is probably the reason it is so pricey.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 07:07 AM
Our GM pulled it apart carefully and put it into a binder with the plastic sleeves... no rubbing off of ink, adds a hardcover... and he can use a wet/dry erase marker on parts that he needs to make notes...

The CONTENT is worth the 30 dollar price tag... the quality leaves something to be desired, but easily fixed with an extra $2 at office depot. :smallbiggrin:

Grynning
2008-05-27, 07:08 AM
There's a total of 96 pages in there. That's 24 sheets, folded in half, printed on both sides. One page of each booklet is the "cover" so that's 94 pages of material, on magazine stock. What I am saying is that there is no way it cost WotC more to print than an issue of a magazine would.

I don't care how long it takes to play. I don't care what's in that booklet. It could be the best adventure I've ever seen.

Why the hell are they charging 30 bucks for it? Is there a tiny bag of China White stashed in a secret compartment in the box somewhere? Are there secret plans for a fusion generator encoded into the text?

It's a cheaply printed goddam BOOKLET hidden in a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

Tengu
2008-05-27, 07:11 AM
You know, remember it's Wizards we're talking about here. Just because 4e is good doesn't mean that they've suddenly changed their creed, which is, as Rutee puts it, "hoo boy, we sure do like money".

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 07:11 AM
There's a total of 96 pages in there. That's 24 sheets, folded in half, printed on both sides. One page of each booklet is the "cover" so that's 94 pages of material, on magazine stock. What I am saying is that there is no way it cost WotC more to print than an issue of a magazine would.

I don't care how long it takes to play. I don't care what's in that booklet. It could be the best adventure I've ever seen.

Why the hell are they charging 30 bucks for it? Is there a tiny bag of China White stashed in a secret compartment in the box somewhere? Are there secret plans for a fusion generator encoded into the text?

It's a cheaply printed goddam BOOKLET hidden in a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

The content, as far as I can guess. Which would make sense, up to a point.

Edit: Tengu, it's actually "Boy howdy we sure do like money." :smalltongue:

Tengu
2008-05-27, 07:15 AM
Yeah, I knew I got it wrong. It's me who says "hoo boy" a lot. Must've picked it up from Cloud.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 07:17 AM
The content, as far as I can guess. Which would make sense, up to a point.

Edit: Tengu, it's actually "Boy howdy we sure do like money." :smalltongue:


/sigh...I suppose expecting a company to take pride in how they package their product was my mistake. Guess I'm just an unenlightened grognard because I'm not willing to chop my arms off to buy 4th edition.

Trog
2008-05-27, 07:17 AM
The lack of covers does, indeed, suck. Regardless of price. I'm in printing and I thought it was something they decided to cheaply crank out. Content awesome but they should spring for better covers next time. No need to put a crap cover on gold material.

Gorbash
2008-05-27, 07:19 AM
Fight fire with fire - download it illegally. :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-05-27, 07:22 AM
Hehehe.

No matter how good it is though, I just can't see being satisfied if I pay for it. It's a flipping preview. Every other company gives those out for free. Only WotC has the audacity to make us pay for preview material.

Last_resort_33
2008-05-27, 07:25 AM
It only costs around 2 cents to produce a CD, so why can you pay 4k for a piece of software?

not only do you have pay people to print it, but to actually write it also, as well as artwork, and most importantly play testing. you have to rigorously test a module like a computer program, unlike any old bit of fluff or throw away adventure that you stick in a magazine.

And of course wizards huge profit.

Aquillion
2008-05-27, 07:28 AM
Because charging $30 for it not only makes them more money, but also ensures that the only people who play it are diehard fans interested in the new edition who are, therefore, the ones most inclined to give it rave reviews.

(I'm not knocking its fun value, mind you. But the price ensures it a friendly audience... if it was free, you'd get a lot more suspicious-of-4th-edition types playing it out of curiousity, and much more critical reviews.)

But also, as Last_resort_33 says, this is probably one of the most heavily playtested modules (well, mini-modules) WotC has produced in years. After all, it is really, really important that this thing be well-received, and some of that comes down to the design of the adventure itself rather than the system. So in that respect the price makes a certain amount of sense.

Nobody cares if you make an occasional bad issue of Dragon magazine, so you can usually have some interns knock something off and call it a day. If this thing was badly-received, though, it could be a disaster, so they had to actually invest serious money in producing and playtesting it. They can recoup some of that by making it using inexpensive materials and charging a fairly large amount.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 07:32 AM
It only costs around 2 cents to produce a CD, so why can you pay 4k for a piece of software?

not only do you have pay people to print it, but to actually write it also, as well as artwork, and most importantly play testing. you have to rigorously test a module like a computer program, unlike any old bit of fluff or throw away adventure that you stick in a magazine.

See, I was under the impression that the preview adventure was something that they had already been using in the 4th edition playtesting anyways. Yes, lots of development goes into RPG's, and I will pay $40 bucks for a rulebook, because I know how much work goes into creating one. If this adventure is essentially a by-product of 4th ed. development, though, then they shouldn't be charging this much. As Rutee points out, it's essentially a promotional, which are often freely available. Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

Zorg
2008-05-27, 08:53 AM
...a box that looks like it should have a well-made product in it. That's what I'm pissed about.

I'm not sure what the box looks like, but if it's a full colour job that's where the cost could be - packaging like that can be suprisingly expensive depending on the production run.

TwystidMynd
2008-05-27, 09:06 AM
See, I was under the impression that the preview adventure was something that they had already been using in the 4th edition playtesting anyways. Yes, lots of development goes into RPG's, and I will pay $40 bucks for a rulebook, because I know how much work goes into creating one. If this adventure is essentially a by-product of 4th ed. development, though, then they shouldn't be charging this much. As Rutee points out, it's essentially a promotional, which are often freely available. Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

Well, if that demo instead, provided me with over 20 hours of gameplay, I might feel more justified in paying "almost full price."

This Saturday, my group (DM + 5 players) played Keep on the Shadowfell for 13 hours. According to our DM, we're almost halfway through, so I assume we have at least 7 more hours to go (hence the "20 hour" number I dropped).

I agree that $30 is expensive, and that magazine-quality paper seems cheap. I'm not in printing, so I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the prices of magazines are usually supplemented by ads printed on their pages; this module doesn't have any of those (that I'm aware of; I haven't actually read it, since that'd spoil my fun =P ), so the cost is likely to be slightly higher than a standard 96-page magazine.
Additionally, the module comes with a number of full-color double-sided high-quality (hyper-hyphenated) maps, which I'm sure also add to the cost.

Of course, I doubt that all of these material expenses add up to a total of $30.00, but you've also got a lot of intellectual property wrapped up in the package. As Last_resort_33 mentioned, intellectual property can be very highly valued (or at least highly priced), so perhaps that's where the extra $10-$20 comes from?
Or maybe it's to ensure they recoup expenses from the rigorous development and playtesting?
Or maybe it's got a steeper price to ensure only fans buy it, as Aquillion suggests?
Perhaps my expectations are just lower, but I've got no huge problem with the material the module is printed on.

And as an aside, there are a lot of people viewing this as a throw-away module that won't be used after there are "better" modules out there... but to me it seems like this is a full-blown module, as complete as any of the original Gygaxian Underdark-series modules, that they expect to be the first in a long storyline. It just happens to also have some quickstart rules in it.
As with any venture, WotC may fail at making this a memorable module, but it certainly seems like they're trying to make this a meaningful, long-lasting module.

Charity
2008-05-27, 09:15 AM
I guess I'm just forgetting the povety of youth or something..
but it's about Ģ11 on Amazon, that's about the price of two packets of ciggies... or two cheap bottles of wine, or a meal for two at KFC, in fact it's cheaper than two cinema tickets.

Yes they could have improved the production value at little extra cost, and if the print comes off on your hands well that is pretty crappy but really Ģ11 it ain't exactly silly money.

Rutee
2008-05-27, 09:24 AM
I guess I'm just forgetting the povety of youth or something..
but it's about Ģ11 on Amazon, that's about the price of two packets of ciggies... or two cheap bottles of wine, or a meal for two at KFC, in fact it's cheaper than two cinema tickets.

Yes they could have improved the production value at little extra cost, and if the print comes off on your hands well that is pretty crappy but really Ģ11 it ain't exactly silly money.

Well, it's not about cost for once. It's about paying for promotional materials. It's the same problem I have with T-shirts that have a logo on them. I could afford it, easily, but that wouldn't change the fact that I'm paying for previews. It's like charging for a trailer.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-05-27, 09:34 AM
Would you pay almost the full price of a video game for a 3 hour long demo?

Is it a full adventure or 1/4 of one? If it's a full adventure, it's more like a video game expansion pack than a 3 hour long demo (which people do pay 30-50$ for depending on the game). If it's a preview of the actual adventure (like chapter 1 of 5), then it's definately not worth the 30$.

Besides, we all know that the costs are getting higher to make up for the rampant P2P sharing of PDF scans :smallbiggrin:

Grynning
2008-05-27, 09:43 AM
I guess I'm just forgetting the poverty of youth or something...

It's not exactly poverty that motivates me, just good old fashioned stinginess. I expect more for my money. Obviously, I was willing to pay for the module, because it's sitting on my table now and I'm planning on running it tonight, but overall I'm still disappointed with it.

And on a side note, cigarettes and movies are expensive where you are! If Ģ11 is the equivalent to $30, that means your paying $15 for a pack of smokes or a movie ticket....that's insane (Cigs are about $5-6 a pack here in Texas, movie tickets are about $9). I'd feel bad for ya, but then again, your currency is kicking the crap out of ours right now, so enjoy that :smalltongue:

Rutee
2008-05-27, 09:44 AM
Besides, we all know that the costs are getting higher to make up for the rampant P2P sharing of PDF scans :smallbiggrin:

Well, no. They're going up because the dollar is growing weaker. That and the cost of /everything/ is going up in these parts :P

that and just because it's a published, finished module doesn't change what I expect cost wise, because it's still a preview. Again, I can download the quickstart for WoD, or Exalted, or WotG, or Scion, for absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter how much work you put into promotional materials; They're promotional. You don't make people pay to advertise to them.

Well, you do if you're WotC. See: Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters.

Grynning
2008-05-27, 10:08 AM
It doesn't matter how much work you put into promotional materials; They're promotional. You don't make people pay to advertise to them.

Well, you do if you're WotC. See: Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters.

See, I did NOT pay for those. At least Keep on the Shadowfell is something you can play.

Charity
2008-05-27, 10:15 AM
Well, it's not about cost for once. It's about paying for promotional materials. It's the same problem I have with T-shirts that have a logo on them. I could afford it, easily, but that wouldn't change the fact that I'm paying for previews. It's like charging for a trailer.

How about a Lotus Elise with the lotus badge on the front?
You arn't buying a bumper sticker here it is the fully fledged product.


on a side note, cigarettes and movies are expensive where you are! If Ģ11 is the equivalent to $30, that means your paying $15 for a pack of smokes or a movie ticket....that's insane (Cigs are about $5-6 a pack here in Texas, movie tickets are about $9). I'd feel bad for ya, but then again, your currency is kicking the crap out of ours right now, so enjoy that :smalltongue:

11.00 GBP = 21.7203 USD Amazon prices for KotS
10.8611 USD for ciggies
10.2204 USD for 1 gallon of petrol
14.8148 USD for 1 cinema ticket
So yeah it ain't cheep here

@V Rutee, the adventure is the first of 9 in an adventure path it is not a stand alone quick start adventure.

Rutee
2008-05-27, 10:16 AM
How about a Lotus Elise with the lotus badge on the front?
You arn't buying a bumper sticker here it is the fully fledged product.

As are the quickstart adventures of other companies, made to promote the game. They just happen to be free, because they're promotional.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 10:19 AM
Lets be completely honest here..

Why did they charge $30? Because they knew people would pay for it.

The list price for H2 - Thunderspire Labryinth looks as though it's $5 cheaper...

Trog
2008-05-27, 10:28 AM
11.00 GBP = 21.7203 USD Amazon prices for KotS
10.8611 USD for ciggies
10.2204 USD for 1 gallon of petrol
14.8148 USD for 1 cinema ticket
So yeah it ain't cheep here
Holy... $10.22 a gallon!?! :smalleek:

Charity
2008-05-27, 10:33 AM
http://www.addexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/train-derailed-by-elephant.JPG

Why do you think we drive small cars.
They are quite serious over here about reducing emissions.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 10:35 AM
http://www.addexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/train-derailed-by-elephant.JPG

Why do you think we drive small cars.
They are quite serious over here about reducing emissions.

*Obligatory*.

THIS! IS! SRS BSNS!

Muyten
2008-05-27, 10:36 AM
Well I just bought it and I'm not feeling ripped. I even paid a lot more since I live in a country with 25% sales tax and transport on top of that comes to around 45$.

That is about twice what I paid for the last module I bought from WotC.
Although I agree that the covers might have been better I think the rest makes up for it.

3 times as many pages as a module used to have (and even not counting the rules-part it is twice as many).

Full colour all the way through.

And the best layout I have seen in any module ever.

Crow
2008-05-27, 10:55 AM
Well, no. They're going up because the dollar is growing weaker. That and the cost of /everything/ is going up in these parts :P

that and just because it's a published, finished module doesn't change what I expect cost wise, because it's still a preview. Again, I can download the quickstart for WoD, or Exalted, or WotG, or Scion, for absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter how much work you put into promotional materials; They're promotional. You don't make people pay to advertise to them.

Well, you do if you're WotC. See: Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters.

30 dollars is actually quite a lot of money for what it sounds like you get. Considering you can normally get a hardcover book on quality paper for that much in most cases. I don't think you can mark up the "content" as much as people are saying. As Rutee said, it is a preview. How is the content worth so much more that they couldn't afford to at least bind it properly?

Aleron
2008-05-27, 11:03 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Shadowfell-Dungeons-Dragons-Adventure/dp/0786948507/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211904720&sr=8-1

Here is the Amazon.com page for the module. $19.77 and if you're getting more than just this free shiping.

Also, I have the torrent file(not the actual pdf, yet) on my computer. :/ Not that hard to deal with.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-05-27, 11:45 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Shadowfell-Dungeons-Dragons-Adventure/dp/0786948507/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211904720&sr=8-1

Here is the Amazon.com page for the module. $19.77 and if you're getting more than just this free shiping.

Also, I have the torrent file(not the actual pdf, yet) on my computer. :/ Not that hard to deal with.

Looks like it has a cover?!?

It looks to be about the size of 2 of the Eberron trilogy of adventures, which cost 30$ (CDN), had soft covers and were black and white inside... Then again, Red Hand of Doom was 40$, full color (still soft cover), but had enough material to cover 6 levels of adventuring. I guess I'd have to see it / run it first.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-27, 11:53 AM
As you can tell from the thread I started last week, I'm less than thrilled with the price as well. I'll point out that the low production quality is actually a problem and that this adventure, at least nominally, is not intended to just be tossed away as soon as the 4e books come out. For one thing, as said, it is part of a continuing adventure path. For another, it makes reference in the DM section to things in the PHB.

Also, regarding price. $30 is quite a lot for three level adventure. Even the $19.77 on amazon is a chunk. Compare expedition to undermountain (a 10 level book, hardbound) at $23.07.

Also, I'd be very surprised if the print quality improves for the thuderspire. It is $5 cheaper, but B&N also lists it as paperback rather than hardback.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 12:01 PM
Isn't $30 more than the PHB costs?

ShadowSiege
2008-05-27, 12:17 PM
Isn't $30 more than the PHB costs?

It's approximately how much the PHB costs. I had been thinking about picking up the modules and running that campaign, but at 20-30 dollars a pop, I'm quite discouraged from going that route.

Morandir Nailo
2008-05-27, 01:00 PM
I believe that the PHB is going to retail for $35.00, so yeah, this thing's only five bucks less than the 300-page, full-color, high-quality-paper, hardbound core rulebook. If it wasn't for my gf's massive discount (she works at a bookstore), I would not own this thing.

I understand that there are costs that go into these things, but the quality of the paper and cardstock is horrible. I've handled this thing with kid gloves since I got it Thursday, and already the pockets of the slipcover are tearing, the corners of the booklets are damaged, and there are fingerprints on the covers from where the ink has come off on my hands as I read it. Call me crazy, but I should not have to use cotton gloves and rubber-tipped tweezers to handle a thirty-dollar book without damaging it. Honestly, at least a softcover would have been nice. I don't care what rules are in it, I have a ton of splatbooks which are all full-color, on quality paper, and hardbound, and cost the same price.

Now, obviously I did buy the thing, and I plan on running it, and I have the Core box set on pre-order at Amazon, so I'm giving Wizards my money despite the complaints. But between stuff like this and their abysmal handling of their message boards recently, I'm seriously considering a boycott. The new rules are nice (I'm actually the 4e defender in my group, most of whom hate the idea of a new edition), but I think I should get a bit more for my money.
</rant>

Mor

RukiTanuki
2008-05-27, 01:55 PM
I'm a little disappointed in the printing quality (and I suspect so is Wizards), but I'm quite pleased with the content.

I'm not sure what the hullabaloo is about; Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde was similarly packaged (in both cases the players had a separate book from the DM), and it and Red Hand of Doom seem to have gone for about the same price (KoS is a little lower in adventure content but obviously includes a mini-ruleset).

I bought the Wizards Presents books because I enjoyed the art, wanted to see more of their central design conceits, and appreciated some advance notice on things I could integrate into my campaign. I bought KoS so I could get a sample adventure, see examples of encounters in context, and answer some of my FAQs about the rules (close vs. area attacks and blasts vs. bursts) ahead of time. All of the above have been useful to me.

I do feel a bit like someone's trying to staple the "sheeple" tag onto me when I hear someone say that I paid for nothing but marketing. The existence of companies who have given away legitimate product (which they could have sold) for free does not preclude any company (including previously mentioned ones) from selling product it could conceivably give away. (and really, what qualifies that?)

Jaappie
2008-05-27, 04:04 PM
How about they just ask the price people are willing to pay?
Thats how this stuff works afaik.
If something is pretty people are willing to pay more.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 04:05 PM
Yeah, that's bogus. Slap some plastic on there.

Trog
2008-05-27, 04:24 PM
http://www.addexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/train-derailed-by-elephant.JPG

Why do you think we drive small cars.
They are quite serious over here about reducing emissions.
I thought it was just because you are all small. Like halflings. Or gnomes. Or Prince.

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-27, 04:34 PM
There's a total of 96 pages in there. That's 24 sheets, folded in half, printed on both sides. One page of each booklet is the "cover" so that's 94 pages of material, on magazine stock. What I am saying is that there is no way it cost WotC more to print than an issue of a magazine would.

There are also three double-sided, full-color poster maps.

But, yes, I agree with you (http://www.thealexandrian.net/archive/archive2008-05.html#20080525). I paid $20 for it through Amazon and felt that was (barely) a fair price when I saw what I was actually getting. If I'd paid the cover price of $30 I'd feel ripped off. And it's not just the lack of covers -- it's the quality of the ink, which is smearing all over the place from even a casual reading.

The content is also questionable: It's very poorly written and the editing is embarassing. The actual adventure itself is not very interesting and poorly constructed in many places.

I had thought with Mike Mearls and Bruce Cordell at the helm, this would be something I could pick up and immediately run. But that's not proving to be the case. (Let me put it this way: The module is boring enough that, if I had bought it for 3rd Edition, I would have stuck it on the shelf after reading it and never used it. The only reason I'm making the effort to kitbash it into shape is because I'm using it to determine whether or not I'll be picking up the 4th Edition rulebooks.)

In addition, several of the poster maps have been recycled from 3rd Edition products.

As for the contention that the content justifies a $30 price tag, I'm not following the logic. This product has less content and lower production values than most or all of the $30 products produced by WotC over the past 2 years.


Well, it's not about cost for once. It's about paying for promotional materials. It's the same problem I have with T-shirts that have a logo on them. I could afford it, easily, but that wouldn't change the fact that I'm paying for previews. It's like charging for a trailer.

OTOH, this argument isn't working for me, either. Yeah, there are quick-start rules included. But this is not pure promotional material. It serves the same function for 4th Edtiion as The Sunless Citadel did for 3rd Edition.

And I was one of the guys looking at WotC's pure promotional products from earlier this year and laughing my head off at any one paying them for the privilege of reading promotional material. But that's not what KotS is. KotS is a fully-functional adventure that will continue to have utility even after the core rulebooks come out.

Edea
2008-05-27, 04:49 PM
I forget; what was the very first 3E promotional material like, if there was any? Was the price inflated and/or was the quality of the module's printing subpar? No idea, honestly :smalleek:

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-27, 04:59 PM
I forget; what was the very first 3E promotional material like, if there was any? Was the price inflated and/or was the quality of the module's printing subpar? No idea, honestly :smalleek:

The Sunless Citadel was the first WotC-produced module for 3rd Edition. For the time period, it had bog standard production values and price: Cardstock cover, black-and-white printing on good quality paper, $10.

The first two D20 modules were Death in Freeport and Three Days to Kill. They both used the exact same format and had similar if not identical price points.

(August/September 2000 was pretty kickass time to be a gamer. Since WotC didn't screw up the OGL the way they've screwed up the GSL, you had three awesome adventures to play through before the game was even a month old.)

There was also lots of promotional material available for free online, including a conversion guide.

Rutee
2008-05-27, 05:11 PM
OTOH, this argument isn't working for me, either. Yeah, there are quick-start rules included. But this is not pure promotional material. It serves the same function for 4th Edtiion as The Sunless Citadel did for 3rd Edition.

If it truly were a stand alone, wouldn't the production values be better, and it would be released /after/ the game? It's promotional material, period. It's like arguing a card in a CCG isn't promotional just because you can use it after the promo period is over.

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-27, 05:17 PM
If it truly were a stand alone, wouldn't the production values be better, and it would be released /after/ the game? It's promotional material, period.

What do the production values have to do with it being promotional materials?

As for the release date, that's like claiming that the original Monster Manual was a promotional product because it was released before the PHB and DMG.

This adventure is H1. The next adventure is H2. KOTS is going to be on the market for many years. It functions as a stand-alone module. It was also designed as a quick-start package for new players.

In short: What definition are you using for the word "promotional"? Because it doesn't match any definition I'm familiar with.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-27, 05:48 PM
If it truly were a stand alone, wouldn't the production values be better, and it would be released /after/ the game?

Not Necc. It could just be that WotC has decided to produce their prefab adventures with very low production value from this point forward (unless the fan base throws a fit that is). Honestly, the production value on the obviously promotional materials (Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters) was much higher than it is for KoS.

Morandir Nailo
2008-05-27, 10:31 PM
<derail>Ah, Freeport...man I loved that adventure series. Some of the best fun I've had playing D&D came from those.</derail>

Sort of an addendum to my earlier post:

I would have been a lot happier with this module if they had ditched the folder and used the cardstock (same cover image) to actually bind the adventure, just like every other adventure of this size that they've put out. They could have given the quickstart guide a simple cardstock binding as well (just throw the logo and the words "Quickstart Guide" on it or something), then slapped the maps between them and shrink-wrapped the whole thing. Of course, even with that I don't think that I could justify paying the full 30 bucks for it, but at least it would look more professional.

Anyway, I've bought this thing and now I have to read through it so I can run it, smeared ink and all. I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic about the actual content for now. I just wish I could play instead of run but this is the only way I'm going to ever see 4e (no one else I know wants to run it). Bah. Bah, says I.

Mor

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-05-28, 12:08 AM
I wouldn't have paid $30 for any single adventure, even if if came hard-bound, so I can see why you'd feel sore about getting something crummy. I'm shelling out for the Pathfinder modules, and even that, at around$15 per book, is a little painful. I'd estimate 20-25 hours of game time per book, at the rate my group goes, or rather will go when we start playing (that $.60to $.75 per hour of fun, if you're lazy about math.) My fun has to cost under $1.00/hour of use if I'm not going to feel like I could have spent my money better elsewhere.


On a side note:

What country are you from, Charity? Somewhere in the EU, I assume. *edit* stupid question -I didn't notice the location tag under your avatar */edit* They really tax the crap out of you, huh? I hear there have been some rumblings over the cap and trade system you folks have going, though.




-Blue

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 12:53 AM
For what it's worth. . . I agree. I find the idea of paying $30 for a single adventure. . . repugnant. But not horribly surprising. After all, look at the "product" they've been producing in the last 2-4 months. It's republished fluff for settings, and some "design articles" bound in hardcover, with largely recycled artwork, all for $20-30!!!! Why would anyone buy this stuff to start with (even newbies to the hobby should be able to recognize a product that doesn't actually facilitate the hobby!)

I don't hate WotC, but I do want to pummel everyone in their marketing department.

On an annual basis.

Make that monthly.

Charity
2008-05-28, 02:21 AM
On a side note:

What country are you from, Charity? Somewhere in the EU, I assume. *edit* stupid question -I didn't notice the location tag under your avatar */edit* They really tax the crap out of you, huh? I hear there have been some rumblings over the cap and trade system you folks have going, though.
-Blue

They do like to tax us... not everybody is happy about it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7420792.stm)

it has got a bit out of hand
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44694000/gif/_44694070_aver_petrol_diesel_466.gif

Sooooo a tenner for a module seems like a bargin, it would cost us that to drive to work and back.

Hawriel
2008-05-28, 02:55 AM
Hehehe.

No matter how good it is though, I just can't see being satisfied if I pay for it. It's a flipping preview. Every other company gives those out for free. Only WotC has the audacity to make us pay for preview material.

They made you pay for 4th ed. advertisement for the past 6 months. Nothing was in thoughs books that wasnt wow art or a bunch of hipe. And alot of you payed mony for it. Why are you so supprised that wotc put out a sample game made about as cheep as a collage corse pack. With the price of a book that should used on a book. A real book with a spine, binding and hard cover.


If some of you think its no big deal I would think that you never had to by your own books for college or fill your tank with gass.

edit: last comment ment to be general.

Edea
2008-05-28, 03:10 AM
Ten bucks to thirty? Yikes, was inflation that bad over the last 8 years?

Also, the price increase may be due at least partially to torrents.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 03:18 AM
They made you pay for 4th ed. advertisement for the past 6 months. Nothing was in thoughs books that wasnt wow art or a bunch of hipe.
"WoW art"? 4E art is great, actually. Best female dwarves I've seen anywhere.

The Dragonborn do suffer from WoW Shoulderpad Disease, but that's about it.

Also, pray tell, how did they MAKE us pay for it? Were we force-marched into the stores? I read through "Races and Classes" in the bookstore, decided I didn't want to buy it, and didn't. Anyone who was buying it could easily have done the same, and probably did. How is that "making" us pay for it?

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-28, 03:21 AM
Ten bucks to thirty? Yikes, was inflation that bad over the last 8 years?

That's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

$10 in 2000 bought you 32 black-and-white pages in a cardstock cover.

$30 in 2008 buys you 96 full-color pages and 3 double-sided full-cover poster maps in a cardstock folder.

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 12:32 PM
That's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

$10 in 2000 bought you 32 black-and-white pages in a cardstock cover.

$30 in 2008 buys you 96 full-color pages and 3 double-sided full-cover poster maps in a cardstock folder.

Actually $30 in 2007/2008 buys me a 120 page hardcover supplement that I can use in many different ways for both player characters, and NPCs, and be re-used many many times. It might even buy me 1/3 of an entire system (or close to it).

It can buy someone else a 96 page adventure enclosed in cardstock and plastic wrap, and they can use it once per gaming group.

Though I can see why the adventure might be more expensive than a Dungeon magazine, since there are no advertisements (I hope) in the adventure (which itself is an advertisement). But to charge 3/4 the cost of one book (I think PHB is running at $35-40 ?) for a single adventure? That's a bit ridiculous, even for WotC.

Again, I'll state, I don't hate WotC, just their marketing department.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 12:39 PM
Again, I'll state, I don't hate WotC, just their marketing department.

Which really confuses me, frankly. Their marketing department used to be really really effective. Then 4e got announced and it was all down hill from there (Starting with Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress). Did they fire a bunch of people or something?

Rutee
2008-05-28, 12:41 PM
Which really confuses me, frankly. Their marketing department used to be really really effective. Then 4e got announced and it was all down hill from there (Starting with Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress). Did they fire a bunch of people or something?

The Marketting Department was bad before 4e. The whole Anti-MMO advertising stance, remember?

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 12:45 PM
The Marketting Department was bad before 4e. The whole Anti-MMO advertising stance, remember?

I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to, actually. Can you link me?

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 12:53 PM
I have no idea. And I don't hang out on the WotC boards at all, so I don't have any insight to what might be going on over there.
But you're right, Bait, they did have an effective marketing dept. until 4E was announced. The way I saw it locally, 4E was announced, then a handful of products for 3.5 were released. Mostly stuff that had been promoted months and months prior, so folks were waiting for it. Then there were the hardcover "classic" adventures (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, etc. . . ). After that, I think one Eberron supplement (that had no crunch, just lots of good tasty fluff) was released. After that it was all hardcover "insight to our process" books. My guess is that they got used to having 1-3 gaming products a month to pay salaries, plus a novel or three. When they announced 4E a year or so before the release, I think spending habits became thrifty, and they realized they need to continue producing SOMETHING for people to buy, and 4E was the only thing new they had to sell. That's just a guess though.

Personally, I'd rather have had some useful 3.5 material published (something I might actually buy). And if/when my group switches to 4E, I'll deal with those costs. I'm not keen on paying for advertisement just to cover development costs. Development costs are supposed to be a risk that a company takes when it puts out a new product (and thus should be an element of the price of every book, that then gets budgeted for development).

In any case, I'm looking forward to 4E, if Saga is any indication. I just hope their marketing plan changes.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 12:59 PM
I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to, actually. Can you link me?

It was something along the lines of:

"D&D: Because if you're going to spend your Friday nights pretending to be an elf, you might as well have some friends over." Or something along those lines. I remember it, but am far too lazy to look it up at the present time.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 01:04 PM
It was something along the lines of:

"D&D: Because if you're going to spend your Friday nights pretending to be an elf, you might as well have some friends over." Or something along those lines. I remember it, but am far too lazy to look it up at the present time.

That actually doesn't strike me as a bad marketing strategy...

Rutee
2008-05-28, 01:07 PM
That actually doesn't strike me as a bad marketing strategy...

You are doing it with friends in an MMO.

It's bad marketting strategy because it attempts to appeal to nerds that it is actively insulting (And probably, the ad is wrong, since if you /are/ playing MMOs, you probably /do/ do it with friends)

Notwithstanding that it enforces Omega Dog Syndrome. It's the same reasons WW's marketing department is run by monkeys (And so is WotC's)

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 01:18 PM
You are doing it with friends in an MMO.

Depends. You might be doing it with total strangers. You are almost certianly doing it by yourself, physically speaking, since none of the other players are physically in the same place you are.

Mind you, I'm not saying that a marketing strategy like that isn't somewhat off base and potentially offensive to some MMO players. I'm just saying that it's not a bad pitch to the market that doesn't yet play an MMO or D&D and is thinking about it.

Edit: The Omega dog syndrome, which I've always heard referred to as the Alpha Dog syndrome, is a time tested method of selling a product, icky as it may be.

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 01:50 PM
Interesting, I never picked up on the alph/omega dog thing in that article. I just took it as "if you're spending your time doing X, well, we've got a product that allows you to do something similar, but with people in person"

I personally thought it was hilarious when I saw it. And I've played MMOs. Of course, I got more bored playing WoW than playing Baldur's gate, and I tried playing with friends via MMO. It just wasn't that interesting (no real storyline beyond "go fetch this for me" or "go kill this for me" = boring, IMO).

I think the whole "gamer book for girls" was much more insulting to the target audience. Though admittedly, I never read it, it might have been hilarious.

One of the better marketing attempts that I can think of was the "Dummy's Guide" they put out. Again, I didn't read it, but it made me think more positively about the company as a whole. The annual April Fools version of Dungeon/Dragon magazines, and the website. I'm sure there are others, but I do actually need to do some work today. ;-)

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 01:58 PM
I think the whole "gamer book for girls" was much more insulting to the target audience. Though admittedly, I never read it, it might have been hilarious.


I did read it. I was curious to see how it pitched the game. It's not really a bad book. It's also not a good book. However, it was marketed horribly, which was part of the reason people (many of whom had not even read it) took it as insulting.

For example, it should have been in the popular fiction section of the bookstore I found it in, if the purpose of the product was to make the game more appealing to female players. Instead, it was in the D&D section, where the only female gamers who would see it were already familiar with D&D. It should have had something about 4e in it, considering it was released under the 4e label and shortly before 3.x stopped being supported. Instead, it spend a hunk of the book explaining mechanics which would soon be made obsolete by the shift.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 02:03 PM
Depends. You might be doing it with total strangers. You are almost certianly doing it by yourself, physically speaking, since none of the other players are physically in the same place you are.
Yeah, but they're not always physically in the same place as you are with DnD either.


Mind you, I'm not saying that a marketing strategy like that isn't somewhat off base and potentially offensive to some MMO players. I'm just saying that it's not a bad pitch to the market that doesn't yet play an MMO or D&D and is thinking about it.
How do you figure there's people deciding between one or the other? I've never seen anyone sit down and say "Well, I can only play one of these things ever..."


Edit: The Omega dog syndrome, which I've always heard referred to as the Alpha Dog syndrome, is a time tested method of selling a product, icky as it may be.
Take That! usually makes the opposition look good, frankly.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 02:08 PM
Yeah, but they're not always physically in the same place as you are with DnD either.


Not always, but the vasy majority of the time. The exact opposite is true with MMO's. Also, the pitch needn't be true, just effective.


How do you figure there's people deciding between one or the other? I've never seen anyone sit down and say "Well, I can only play one of these things ever..."

I've only ever played one of those things... at least at a time...


Take That! usually makes the opposition look good, frankly.

I don't really think so. It should do that but in reality it has to get pretty extremely insulting before most people find it repulsive rather than witty.

Kioran
2008-05-28, 02:31 PM
You are doing it with friends in an MMO.

It's bad marketting strategy because it attempts to appeal to nerds that it is actively insulting (And probably, the ad is wrong, since if you /are/ playing MMOs, you probably /do/ do it with friends)

Notwithstanding that it enforces Omega Dog Syndrome. It's the same reasons WW's marketing department is run by monkeys (And so is WotC's)

You are not doing much with friends in an MMO - maybe chatting, but without body language, spontaneous humor and/or unhealthy snack food, as well as dice, itīs only half as good and interactive. Iīve played an MMORPG (Anarchy Online), even quite seriously for a while, but boy am I glad Iīm not anymore. Trying to sell the fact that you are, in fact, not creating total basement dwellers, but only slightly nerdy normal people, is actually good. If you have to piss off a few people to create that distinction, thatīs bad, but itīs not that bad that one has to suspect monkeys.

Same with 4th: the White wolf/Exalted and "storyteller" crowd is lapping this up. Some of the marketing, especially pitching the mechanics, is well done. Any of the advertising not directed at experienced gamers though - yeah, monkeys. Rabid, crack addicted monkeys in fact.

So the marketing department has become worse, especially in dealing with the uninvolved public. They did that better a few years ago. Still, they donīt seem to be fully incompetent (very much like their game designers).

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 02:50 PM
How do you figure there's people deciding between one or the other? I've never seen anyone sit down and say "Well, I can only play one of these things ever..."


Actually, a lot of the folks I play games with are somewhat limited in their disposable income, so they actually do have to make a choice. Heck, some of them have to make a choice whenever a new book comes out.

I think one of the things that seperates the WW adverts from the anti-MMO adverts is that there exists a strong element of elitism in the WW adverts, which makes the whole thing look ridiculous. While the anti-MMO adverts are more along the lines of "this is more fun and you get to do it with people and have actual interaction".

My experience with WoW was that I generally played alone. Many of the folks I knew who played with leagues/teams whatever, they didn't know most of the people in their team outside of the WOW. And often, if you weren't some kind of uberplayer who spent time grinding so that you could get the best gear in order to play your character perfectly during a big dungeon run, well, you weren't really welcome (unless you found a group of casual players).
I'm sure others have better experiences, but I'm sure I'm not alone in my experience.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 03:00 PM
My experience with WoW was that I generally played alone. Many of the folks I knew who played with leagues/teams whatever, they didn't know most of the people in their team outside of the WOW. And often, if you weren't some kind of uberplayer who spent time grinding so that you could get the best gear in order to play your character perfectly during a big dungeon run, well, you weren't really welcome (unless you found a group of casual players).
I'm sure others have better experiences, but I'm sure I'm not alone in my experience.

I had a similar experience with the one online RPG I did play somewhat extensivley. I'mnot sure if it was technically an MMO by current standards as it was all text based but there was a sense of cliquieness in the game and if you were not one of the high level and wealthy folks you tended to get ignored or activley excluded from things.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 03:01 PM
I think one of the things that seperates the WW adverts from the anti-MMO adverts is that there exists a strong element of elitism in the WW adverts, which makes the whole thing look ridiculous. While the anti-MMO adverts are more along the lines of "this is more fun and you get to do it with people and have actual interaction".

....
Right, the WotC adverts were totally not dripping with that same elitism, especially not with the picture of a seemingly brain dead guy on the computer.

PnP Fan
2008-05-28, 03:14 PM
....
Right, the WotC adverts were totally not dripping with that same elitism, especially not with the picture of a seemingly brain dead guy on the computer.

Sorry, again, from my perspective, that picture was more truth, than advertising. Several guys I know playing WoW would get less sleep on the night they had a "run" than well. . . an analogy that probably doesn't belong on this board.
From my personal experience, I was bored doing WoW. Brain dead looks come from boredom, in my case. I didn't take that as "you must be brain dead to play an MMO" so much as "MMO's are boring because there aren't people to interact with, in a direct fashion." Never mind that grinding for xp or crafting materials has to be the most boring thing I've ever quit after a few minutes. Oh, and did I mention the travel times between receiving a quest and arriving at the quest site had started running into the 20 minute range, with nothing but random monster (and no story) encounters for entertainment? Hey, if you like MMOs, more power to you. I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky fashion. But when I saw that guy in the picture, I completely identified with his boredom, and then I laughed (out loud, even!).
I can see your point though. If you are a fan of MMOs, you might see him as being "brain dead" and making the association that "only brain dead people play MMOs".

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 03:16 PM
Can one of you link that picture? I'm curious now...

Crow
2008-05-28, 03:44 PM
....
Right, the WotC adverts were totally not dripping with that same elitism, especially not with the picture of a seemingly brain dead guy on the computer.

When you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who yelps is the one you hurt...

The truth hurts.

PnP Fan
2008-05-29, 07:17 AM
Here's an address that has an article about the adverts. There were several of them, this is just the first one that popped up on a google search.

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/29/antimmorpg-ads-from-.html

fendrin
2008-05-29, 10:01 AM
I'm with Grynning on the production quality and PnP Fan on the advert.
For the sake of disclosure, I was not an MMORPG player when I saw that advert (unless you count Diablo on Battle.net), but a few years later I started with FF11.

For the record, I still maintain that Dungeons&Dragons Online is the best MMORPG ever.

Back to the real thread topic... I normally don't buy adventures. I bought... Return to the Keep of the Borderlands, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (which I lost before I ever used), a 3rd party one for 3.0, and Red Hand of Doom for 3.5, and KoS for 4e. That's it. Ever.

That being said, KoS has the worst production quality of any of them. Seriously. A typical monthly magazine is higher quality.

Content aside, I would not have bought it at $30. Of course, it's my own fault for not pre-ordering it. I had this funny notion of supporting my local gaming store. I shouldn't have bothered. It's really a comic shop and the owner is somewhat antagonistic to gamers. I ended up buying it at Barnes & Noble anyway (I feel dirty... big box stores like B&N have ruined the small-town feel where I live).

AKA_Bait
2008-06-02, 04:25 PM
Something I just noticed... if you have any of the 4e books go take a look at the advert page at the end.

That sure looks like a hardbound copy of KoS doesn't it? Shame it doesn't really exist.

Rutee
2008-06-02, 05:25 PM
When you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who yelps is the one you hurt...

The truth hurts.

Betcha ten bucks I could walk into a pack of roleplayers, say all roleplayers are smelly losers who spend all their time on stupid LARPs that make the Deadale Wives players in their parody look like true geniuses, and get some people offended.

Just because I'm one of the only MMO players on this specific board doesn't mean that my being offended makes an idiot statement true.

Bleen
2008-06-02, 06:19 PM
Actually, given the negative stigma often placed upon MMOs in general by the public media (OMG, WoW is physically and psychologically addictive and coming off of it is like trying to come off of crack!) and the amount of crap MMO players have to put up with in addition to having the general "nerd" label placed upon them that everyone else does, I'd say that any MMO player is pretty justified in being offended by "Brain-dead computer guy+insult towards MMORPGs" ad.

I know people who spend just as much time out clubbing, where they drink copious amounts of alcohol, dance poorly, and then knock up some chick/get knocked up and have to pay the consequenes. Why am I addicted when I stay up 'till 3 AM raiding but my acquaintance who goes out just as late drinking a chemically-addictive substance which leads to him doing stupid crap with women he barely knows at a club isn't?

But I guess that's how acceptable targets (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableTargets) works, isn't it?

Anywho, this whole super-expensive-promo deal reminds me of a certain occurance in the video game industry... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Turismo_5_Prologue)

Crow
2008-06-02, 07:41 PM
Betcha ten bucks I could walk into a pack of roleplayers, say all roleplayers are smelly losers who spend all their time on stupid LARPs that make the Deadale Wives players in their parody look like true geniuses, and get some people offended.

Just because I'm one of the only MMO players on this specific board doesn't mean that my being offended makes an idiot statement true.

Wow, that took quite a while...

Hey, there are some casual MMO players, sure. But then there are also MMO players who get off work just to go home and log in for the rest of the night before coming in to work the next day sleep-deprived with bad body odor because they "didn't have time" to shower.

Presumably, the advert was describing the latter. Oh well. If it doesn't apply to you, why do you care? There are too many things to worry about in this world than getting offended, especially in the case of an advert that was meant to be a playful nudge. I have more important things to worry about than somebody calling me a drooling nerd or whatever. When I get home, I don't sit there and brood over something I saw in a magazine, or on a billboard, or on television. I swear people take offense to the most insane things, and for the life of me I cannot understand why.

Maybe I'm just being shallow or dim. Please explain to me how and why you are offended over this advert. Why is this advert offensive to you, Rutee? Why does it matter so much to you, that you would take offense to it? If the depiction has no correllation to the truth at all (which in this case it does, in the case of certain players), why do you care? It's like me being offended by somebody saying "All German Shepherds are lazy." Sure, I may engage them in conversation to explain why I don't believe they are lazy, but I certainly won't be offended by the statement. Even if they said something like "All people who live in California are lazy.", I wouldn't be offended.

EvilElitest
2008-06-02, 07:42 PM
Did i miss something or is Rutee the only MMO player on this board? What?
from
EE

Rutee
2008-06-02, 08:09 PM
Maybe I'm just being shallow or dim. Please explain to me how and why you are offended over this advert. Why is this advert offensive to you, Rutee? Why does it matter so much to you, that you would take offense to it? If the depiction has no correllation to the truth at all (which in this case it does, in the case of certain players), why do you care? It's like me being offended by somebody saying "All German Shepherds are lazy." Sure, I may engage them in conversation to explain why I don't believe they are lazy, but I certainly won't be offended by the statement. Even if they said something like "All people who live in California are lazy.", I wouldn't be offended.

Because stupid blanket statements that are wrong have an irritating tendency to be ascribed to everyone who it theoretically might apply to? Because such an ad strengthens the tendency among Nerds to denigrate other Nerds for their hobbies (See: Those whom have supported the statement as true). That's a real chestnut there; Like nerds don't have enough tendencies to cast aspersions on the other nerd-y hobbies, as if it's somehow less geeky to sit at a table and roll dice then it is to play video games (The relevant comparison on this forum. With the type I usually hang out with, ti's the opposite), or what have you. Like Take That! isn't a lame advertisement policy to begin with. Etc, etc.

Bleen
2008-06-02, 08:12 PM
Also, it's not going to sell anything, given that all it's doing is pissing off the social group it's trying to convert.

Sequinox
2008-06-02, 08:43 PM
Is it okay that I have only played the first encounter for KotS and yet I think that it is the best thing to happen to DnD as far as I've played?

Crow
2008-06-02, 09:21 PM
Because stupid blanket statements that are wrong have an irritating tendency to be ascribed to everyone who it theoretically might apply to? Because such an ad strengthens the tendency among Nerds to denigrate other Nerds for their hobbies (See: Those whom have supported the statement as true). That's a real chestnut there; Like nerds don't have enough tendencies to cast aspersions on the other nerd-y hobbies, as if it's somehow less geeky to sit at a table and roll dice then it is to play video games (The relevant comparison on this forum. With the type I usually hang out with, ti's the opposite), or what have you. Like Take That! isn't a lame advertisement policy to begin with. Etc, etc.

So if I understand correctly, you're worried about what somebody might think about you? Also, from what I have seen, MMO players tend to be more open if anything, to playing RPG's and vise-versa. In fact, a lot of "nerds" play both. This is why for most people the ad is not an insult. It's just a playful poke in the ribs from one type of nerd to another.

It seems that most of the aspersions being cast are from people who have never taken part in either hobby. If the ad was run in Cosmo or The New Yorker, then I could see how it could be construed differently. You would have people who (presumably) have never touched an MMO throwing out a blanket generalization. But this ad wasn't run in Cosmo or The New Yorker. It was run in different media which caters to people who have presumably done one or the other (MMO or RPG), by people who probably do both.

Bleen
2008-06-02, 09:26 PM
So after three years or so of being picked on by much of the rest of the media, MMO players shouldn't be expected to be touchy when people decide to throw negative stereotypes onto their hobby in an irreverent and unrepentant manner? Even those of us with a sense of humor get sick of the crap after a while.

Crow
2008-06-02, 09:39 PM
Do you consider it a personal slight when some group says RPG's make teens kill their parents? Is it offensive to you that some people claim listening to metal must mean your a satanist? To most people who play RPG's or listen to metal, it isn't offensive because it isn't true. Who really cares beyond the poor guy with a fragile ego, who didn't shower for work because he was up all night playing MMO's?

German Shepherds are all lazy.

Rutee
2008-06-02, 09:42 PM
So if I understand correctly, you're worried about what somebody might think about you? Also, from what I have seen, MMO players tend to be more open if anything, to playing RPG's and vise-versa. In fact, a lot of "nerds" play both. This is why for most people the ad is not an insult. It's just a playful poke in the ribs from one type of nerd to another.

It seems that most of the aspersions being cast are from people who have never taken part in either hobby. If the ad was run in Cosmo or The New Yorker, then I could see how it could be construed differently. You would have people who (presumably) have never touched an MMO throwing out a blanket generalization. But this ad wasn't run in Cosmo or The New Yorker. It was run in different media which caters to people who have presumably done one or the other (MMO or RPG), by people who probably do both.
I don't think Marketeers do either. I also think that you're reading it much more lightly then it's being intended. Again, your entire point centers on people not going "Yeah, that's totally true", and you have people right above you going "Yeah, that's totally true". It kind of invalidates it, doesn't it?

Bleen
2008-06-02, 09:52 PM
Do you consider it a personal slight when some group says RPG's make teens kill their parents? Is it offensive to you that some people claim listening to metal must mean your a satanist? To most people who play RPG's or listen to metal, it isn't offensive because it isn't true. Who really cares beyond the poor guy with a fragile ego, who didn't shower for work because he was up all night playing MMO's?

I dunno. I'd like to think that my parents, my coworkers, my boss, my teachers, or my schoolmates won't shun me when I tell them what my hobbies are. I'd like to be able to get a job at the industry and talk about it at the dinner table without my grandparents having shocked and appalled looks on their faces. I'd like to not have lawyers actively fighting against a thing I enjoy, their cause fueled by a media that takes a perverse joy in finding panic buttons on people and pressing buttons on them repeatedly.

It's not horribly offensive on its own for me; it's more like coming home, kicking back and opening up a gaming magazine..and there's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Crow
2008-06-02, 09:52 PM
I don't think Marketeers do either. I also think that you're reading it much more lightly then it's being intended. Again, your entire point centers on people not going "Yeah, that's totally true", and you have people right above you going "Yeah, that's totally true". It kind of invalidates it, doesn't it?

People are going to say "Yeah, it's totally true." no matter what blanket statement you throw out there. It's a fact of life. The more it denigrates some minority group, the more people will agree with it. Oh well. But do you mean to tell me that the marketers intentionally insulted the very group of players it is trying to attract? No. Just No. The marketers intended the ad to be interprited lightly.

Besides, I don't know a single MMO player who hasn't stayed up late as hell playing at least once...and I know a lot of them. Maybe my perception is just skewed.

Bleen
2008-06-02, 09:54 PM
Besides, I don't know a single MMO player who hasn't stayed up late as hell playing at least once...and I know a lot of them. Maybe my perception is just skewed.
The same can be said of several hobbies. Again, see argument for going out clubbing late at night.

Rutee
2008-06-02, 10:00 PM
People are going to say "Yeah, it's totally true." no matter what blanket statement you throw out there. It's a fact of life.
And this is support for using or encouraging them because...?

Crow
2008-06-02, 10:03 PM
I dunno. I'd like to think that my parents, my coworkers, my boss, my teachers, or my schoolmates won't shun me when I tell them what my hobbies are. I'd like to be able to get a job at the industry and talk about it at the dinner table without my grandparents having shocked and appalled looks on their faces. I'd like to not have lawyers actively fighting against a thing I enjoy, their cause fueled by a media that takes a perverse joy in finding panic buttons on people and pressing buttons on them repeatedly.

It's not horribly offensive on its own for me; it's more like coming home, kicking back and opening up a gaming magazine..and there's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Hey, I understand. Really I do. I am a shooter living in California. Do you know how many people think of hobbyist shooters as gun-nuts? They assume that someone who enjoys going to the range and killing paper, must also sit in their basement (though there aren't many basements in Cali) talking to their guns while caressing them gently. I get a pass because of my job, but I still hear it sometimes, and always from somebody who knows nothing about the sport, has never tried it, and "would never have a gun in my house". The media hits on guns all the time, there are focus groups to ban them, some gun-related law is always being lobbied for in congress...I understand, it can get frustrating.

But the difference is, when I talk to someone who doesn't know any better, I explain the hobby to them and why I am not a "gun-nut". I teach them a little about it, and maybe offer to take them shooting sometime (sometimes they take me up on it). When I see an article talking about how guns are dangerous and need to be banned altogether because anybody who has one must be planning some sort of crime, I don't get offended.

The writer is an idiot. The people who the writer is somehow able to persuade over to his side are probably idiots too. Oh well. No point in me worrying over it. You can't set the world on fire every time somebody says something you don't like. But you can certainly smile and nod.

edit: I am not saying you should support or encourage anything. Just don't waste your time being offended by it. I am not supporting what the advertiser ran, just poking fun that for some reason people place so much power in it. It's like when somebody calls you a name. The name is just a word. You only give it power when you take offense to it.

Bleen
2008-06-02, 10:06 PM
Point taken.
My issue is more with the advertisement being incompetent, counter-productive marketing, really. The subject matter is just icing on the cake.

Crow
2008-06-02, 10:12 PM
Point taken.
My issue is more with the advertisement being incompetent, counter-productive marketing, really. The subject matter is just icing on the cake.

Understood. :smallwink:

Ralfarius
2008-06-03, 11:53 AM
I've played a few MMORPGs in my day. While I don't necessarily find the discussed advert offensive, though it does display a fair uninformed viewpoint. I think the idea Rutee has been trying to get across is not one of self-conscious offense taken to the ad, but rather an idea that geeks should try to refrain from denigrating each other at all.

It's just too much of a pot-kettle correspondence when you say "you people who have lots of interaction with others over a medium like the internet are so much less respectable than we whom sequester ourselves with close-knit groups of friends in dingy basements." The fact of the matter is, you don't have to be face-to-face to a person to have meaningful interaction in this day and age. I can honestly say that in many cases, I have had deeper, more nuanced and more fulfilling role-play on my little corner of World of Warcraft than any tabletop session I've run in years.

Why? Because my groups of friends aren't naturally inclined towards drama, preferring a more heroic, paragon-like (or amusing tongue-in-cheek) approach to their gaming. It would have been awkward & counterproductive to try and play through any sort of real drama when there was stuff to kill and people to save. In an MMO, however, I've been able to reach further than my geographical limitations and find people of similar taste to weave interesting characters and stories together, even while storming 5-man content and the like.

Now, I know I'm not that special of a case, though obviously a good number of MMO players are more interested in the game's content than anything role-playing. However, just because we can tear down people who enjoy hobbies similar (but with considerable difference) to our own, and just because it happens all the time, doesn't mean we should encourage it, nor should we dump on people who speak up and say that they are honestly offended by something of the fashion.

ashmanonar
2008-06-03, 12:26 PM
Did i miss something or is Rutee the only MMO player on this board? What?
from
EE

Used to play WoW. Got utterly sick of the children-with-70's who think it's a great idea to go repeatedly kill that level xx guy who's trying to level.

I don't really have the option to play any others right now, due to time, money, and computer type constraints. (Mac-user)

AKA_Bait
2008-06-03, 01:06 PM
Do you consider it a personal slight when some group says RPG's make teens kill their parents?

Yes. I've told people off for it.


Is it offensive to you that some people claim listening to metal must mean your a satanist?

Yes. Freinds of mine have told peopld off for it.


Who really cares beyond the poor guy with a fragile ego, who didn't shower for work because he was up all night playing MMO's?

If I were to wander around my neigborhood with a sign that said "People of x minority group have y tendencies" I would get the crud kicked out of me. I'd deserve it too. This kind of thing really isn't any different. Saying that an entire group of people is just like it's least productive/worst element is wrong and is something people (not just people in the group targeted) should get offended about.


German Shepherds are all lazy.

If I were a german shepard, I'd bite you. :smallwink: