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Charity
2008-05-27, 05:20 PM
The postman delivered not more than 10 minutes ago a rather heavy package. Inside was the 4th Edition Core Rulebook Collection. They're B-E-A-UTIFUL. I'm just a regular joe who pre-ordered from an internet store that seems to have shipped early.

Ya for me. Now to ignore the internet for awhile and get down to some serious reading.:)

This lucky man (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=396755) has the drop on us all no NDA I advise you join the big quetion asking cue, he's on Enworld also (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227705&page=1&pp=15)

I've not read more I thought I'd share early.

Half elves +2 CHA, +2CON

Paragon path names
Cleric
-Angelic avenger
-Divine oracle
-Radiant servant
-Warpriest
Fighter
-Iron vanguard
-Kensei
-Pit fighter
-Swordmaster
Paladin
-Astral weapon
-Champion of order
-Hospitaler
-Justiciar
Ranger
-Battlefield archer
-Beast stalker
-Pathfinder
-Stormwarden
Rogue
-Cat burglar
-Daggermaster
-Master infiltrator
-Shadow assassin
Warlock
-Doomsayer
-Feytouched
-Life-stealer
Warlord
-Battle captain
-Combat veteran
-Knight commander
-Sword marshal
Wizard
-Battle mage
-Blood mage
-Spellstorm mage
-Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Templates from the MM
There are 2 template types. Functional templates (Such as Lich, mummy lord, DEATH KNIGHT), and 'Class' templates (All the player classes)

FUNCTIONAL TEMPLATES

Battle Champion
Bodyguard
Death Knight
Death Master
Demagogue
Demonic Acolyte
Devastator
Feyborn
Frost Adept
Lich
Mummy Lord
Mummy Champion
Savage berserker
Scion of Flame
Shadowborn Stalker
Vampire Lord

Class Templates

Cleric
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Warlock
Warlord
Wizard


Even more

I'll give an example of a high level fighter power then!

The highest fighter powers are level 29, and dailies. I'll post one of them

Storm of Destruction (fighter attack 29)
Daily, Martial, Weapon.

You knock aside your enemies weapons, creating holes in their defenses that enable you to strike deadly blows against 2 of them at once.

Standard action, Melee Weapon,
Targets: one or 2 creatures
Attack: strength vs AC, one attack per target
Hit: [5]w+strength modifier damage
Miss: Half damage



Hrm, you may be right on bard=Arcane leader, I hadn't thought of that.

But my guess is 1 power source per new PHB, with little if ANY expansion of prior ones.



Lets see... Heres what the chapters are

Sidenote: The credits have a 'Dedicated to the memory of gary gygax' :o

Ch 1: How to play. Has the basic 'A role playing game, whats in DND, what do you need to play' etc etc stuff. The tutorial chapter

Ch2 :Making characters. This has character creation, alignments, and the gods all in one chapter, which is big IMO.

Ch 3: races. Basic races stuff. Each race takes up about 2 pages.

Ch 4: Character classes. The first section introduces characters and character classes, including paragon and epic destinies. Each class is about 12-15 pages long. This includes their abilities and paragon classes

Ch 5: skills. Has skill training, using skills, knowledge skills (as a seperate section), and skill descriptions.

Ch 6: Feats. There are basic/heroic feats, paragon feats, and then Epic feats. I can post some feat exmples if you like. Multiclass feats get their own section

Ch 7: Equipment. BIG chapter. Has coin/gold, armor, weapons, shields, etc etc. Also has MAGIC ITEMS. BUTTLOADS OF THEM

Ch 8: Adventuring. Has info on Quests, Rewards, Exploration, Rest & recovery.

Ch 9: Combat. BIG CHAPTER again. Pretty detailed, haven't gotten to this yet.

Ch 10: Rituals. Has info on acquring and mastering rituals, performing rituals, reading rituals, and descriptions. I can psot ritual descriptions if you like.

I haven't read the combat section yet but from the table of contents it seems VERY DETAILED.

as a matter of fact, the table of contents is VERY VERY NICE. Has classes, powers, and their paragon classes each listed by the page, and other things nicely labelled so you can flip to that page quickly to get the info you need.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 05:34 PM
I am registering for ENWorld right now so I can read this stuff.

Edit: Wow, screw that. Paying for post search? Kiss my sculpted buttocks, ENWorld.

Charity
2008-05-27, 05:37 PM
RPGnet seems to have the most in this instance, but there is a frenzy of crossposting... It's gonna be a long night.

Scratch that RPGnet just fell over... I didn't think that cunning plan all the way through did I.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 05:40 PM
If the guy's not lying, I have only one thing to say:

ZOMGBBQFTW! NEED MOAR INFO! FEED ME NAO!

Or, in a more civilized version:

To ENworld! (TARARARARARARA!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI)

Charity
2008-05-27, 05:41 PM
There is more than 1 copy floating about it would be one hell of a prank.

Example ritual

RITUAL

Detect Secret Doors

With a smile and a wink, you show Sovellis the outline of the trapdoor he missed.

Level: 3
Category: exploration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: instantaneous
Component Cost: 275 GP
Market Price: 125 GP
Key Skill: Arcana

Make an Arcane check. Use the result as a bonus to a perception check you immediately make to find any secret or hidden doors in your line of sight. If anyone aided you while performing this ritual, they can't help you make the resulting perception check.


Utility spells
Daily and Utility Spells: Your spellbook also
holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing
two daily spells, one of which you can use on any given
day. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a
daily spell or a utility spell, choose two different daily
spells or utility spells of that level to add to your book.
After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of
daily and utility spells according to what you can cast
per day for your level. You can’t prepare the same spell
twice.
If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or
through retraining, the previous spell vanishes from
your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell.

Starpact warlock stuff
Collect Life spark (11th level): When a creature under your warlocks curse drops to 0 HP or fewer, you take a portion of its energy by collecting a life spark. As a minor action you can expend its life spark to gain a benefit based on the creatures origin. At the end of the encounter, any life sparks you have not used will fade away

Aberrant: +2 bonus to all defenses until the end of your next action

Immortal: you gain resist 5 to all damage until the end of your turn.

Elemental: you deal an extra 5 damage to the next creature you hit with an attack until the end of your next turn

fey: A succesful attack on your current turn also causes your target to become dazed.

natural: Regain HP equal to one half your level

Shadow: You become invisible until the end of your next turn.

.....

Power

Soul Scorch. Life stealer (Infernal), attack 11

Encounter. Arcane, Fire, Implement, Necrotic
Standard action
Ranged: 10
target: 1 creature
Attack: Con at will
Hit: 3d8+con modifier. Fire and Necrotic damage
Effect: If the target creature has the same origin as a life spark you possess, you can expend that life spark to deal an extra 10 damage to the target.

Ranger early exploits
Ranger

Level 2 Utility Exploits

Crucial Advice Ranger Utility 2

Unbalancing Parry Ranger Utility 2

Yield Ground Ranger Utility 2

Level 3 Encounter Exploits

Cut and Run Ranger Attack 3

Disruptive Strike Ranger Attack 3

Shadow Wasp Strike Ranger Attack 3

Thundertusk Boar Strike Ranger Attack 3


Monsters

Have not found Xbow reload times, I have a feeling when I finish with this post i'll have 30 more requests to boot... :(

Zombies coming up.

ZOMBIES

The lowest level zombie is a minion called Zombie Rotter. Low AC (13), fort 13, ref 9, will 10. Immune to Diaseses and poison.

They deal 5 damage per hit, no rolling. get +6 to hit. Their tactics are surround and swarm. (Zombies! What did you expect?)

'Zombie' is the basic zombie monster. They can grab an opponent (+4 vs reflex). The target is grabbed until it can escape. attempts to escape take a -5 penalty. A critical hit kills a zombie INSTANTLY.

There are also

Zombie Hounds (If they bite you, you take 5 ongoing damage each time you act untl you save, and you are knocked prone) Also insta dead if you crit them. They are fast too, 8 squares movement. Gone are the old days of slow zombies.


Corruption corpses: They can throw things at you, 2d6+3 necrotic damage if it hits. and your weakened until you make your save. They also explode on death.

Rotwings: flying zombies. deal xtra damage on a flying charge. Die instantly against a crit.

Chillborns: Cold zombies. Can immobilize creatures with its basic attack, it deals automatic cold damage against adjacent immobilied zombies. Also explodes when dying

Finally, Zombie hulks. These guys have a lot of HP and damage dealing stuff, pretty nice. They have a recharging (you roll a d6 and if its a roll of 6 he can use it again) that has reach and deals 4d8+5 damage and knocks medium or smaller creatures prone. It also rises after it dies with half HP.

All in all, zombies are ****ING BRUTAL AND NOT at all like old, cannon fodder zombies.



HATE. HATE. HATE YOU. :p

Mind flayers start out at level 14, with 'Infiltrators', they have 3 abilities.

Tentacles (at will). 2d6+5 damage and the target is automatically grabbed. (until he can escape)

Brain Bore: (Standard at will): can only affect grabbed or stunned creatures. 3d6+5 damage. and the target is dazed (save ends), if the target is reduced to 0 HP this way, he gets his brain eaten, dying instantly.

Mind blast: (standard, recharges on a 5 or 6). Flayers and their thralls are immune to this. 2d8+6 psychic damage and the target is dazed (save ends), miss: Half damage and no dazed.

Mind flayer infiltrators are also invisible to dazed or stunned creatures.

We next has Mind flayer masterminds, level 18 elite controllers.

They also have tentacles, bore into brain, and mind blast. each does more damage then the infiltrator. They also get...

Enslave: ranged 10. if the target fails the will save, he is dominated (save ends), gains +5 will defense while enslaved and is within 10 squares of the master. Immune to mind blast also. Only 1 target can be enslaved at a time. (Recharged on 5 or 6)

Illusion of pain: area burst 1. within 10 squares. Enemies imagine the area is filled with writhing, barbed tentacles. 2d10+5 damage, and the target takes 10 ongoing psychic damage and is immobilized (save ends both)

Cradle of the elder brain: (immediate interrupt when attacked. Recharges on 5/6) The mind flayer master teleports 20 squares.

Interpose thrall: (Immediate interrupt when targetted by melee attack, at will): Mastermind redirects the atack to an adjacent thrall.

Those are the only 2 mind flayer types. they take up 2 pages. page 1 is the monster stats, page 2 is lore check stuff, and encounter groups.

level 14 encounter (XP: 4,800)

1 Mind flayer infiltrator (14 lurker)
1 Drider Fanglord (14 brute)
1 Drow Blademaster (level 13 elite blademaster)
2 Drow Warriors (11 lurker)

18 (XP: 10,114)

1 Mind flayer mastermind (18 elite controller)
1 infiltrator (14 lurker)
3 grimlock followers (22 minion)
2 war trolls (14 soldier)



Playable monsters
Gnomes

+2 cha, int.

small size
5 square speed

Low light vision

+2 arcana, +2 stealth checks
If you have cover or concealment when you make init checks, you can make a stealth check to avoid notice.
Can use Fade away as an encounter power.

Fade away
Trigger: You take damage.
effect: you are invisible until you attack or the end of your turn.


ALSO THEY ARE MONSTERS RAWR
.......

Orcs

+2 str, con.

6 square speed
Low light vision, med size.

When you charge you add 2 to your speed.

can use warriors surge as encounter power

Warriors surge

Encounter, healing, weapon.

Standard action, melee weapon.

Attack: Str vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] +str mod damage and you spend a healing surge. increase to 2[W] at 21st level

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyukenAngel View Post
I have a few questions, if you all don't mind.

* In the DM's Tools, is there anything about creating your own class, powers, paths, etc?
* What are the costs/benefits of size categories, like being a large or small character?
* What playable races are listed in the MM?
* Does there appear to be a way to apply functional templates to PC's?

Creating power and paths: Not that i've seen.

Costs/benefits: Will check SAP

Playable Races:

Bugbear
Doppleganger
Drow
Githyanki/Zerai
Gnoll
Gnome (MONSTERS RAWR)
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Minotaur
Orc
Shadar-Kai
Shifter, Longtooth
Shifter, Razorclaw
Warforged

templates on PC: Not that I see yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenls View Post
Drow, gnolls, orcs, and a variety of other humanoid monsters are supposed to be fully playable out of the MM, albeit without racial feats.

So what do drow and gnolls get?
Drow

+2 dex, cha.

6 square speed, darkvision sight.

+2 intimidate, stealth rolls.

Trance: only need 4 hours of sleep instead of 6 hour rest. Fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies/other events.

Lolth touched: can use Cloud of darkness OR darkfire as an encounter power (You have both but can only use ONE AS AN ENCOUNTER POWER. EG: If you use darkfire you can't use cloud of darkness in the same fight, vice versa)

Cloud of darkness: Burst 1. This creates a cloud of darkness that remains in place until the end of your next turn. Cloud blocks Line of sight for all creatures except you. any creature except you entirely within the cloud is blinded.

Darkfire: minor action, ranged 10.

attack: Int+2, wis+2, or cha+2 against reflex (You can choose it seems), increase to +4 at 11th level, and +6 at 21st level.

Hit: Untl end of turn, all attacks against the target have combat advantage, and the target canot benefit from invisibility or concealment.

Special: when you create a character, choose int, wis, or cha for the attack. once chosen this cannot be changed.

Gnoll

+2 con, dex.
7 square (7) speed, Lowlight vision.

+2 intimidate.

when bloodied you gain +2 to damage rolls, this increases to +4 at 21st level.

can use ferocious charge as an encounter power.

Ferocious charge

Encounter, standard action, personal.

You charge and deal an extra 2 damage on a succesful attack. This increases to +4 at 11th level, and +6th at 21st level.

Big bad monster list

Monster list from RPGNET

Aboleth (And aboleth servitor)
Abomination
Angel
Archon
Azer
Balhannoth
Banshee
Basisilisk
Bat
Battlebriar
Bear
Beetle
Behemoth
Beholder
Berbalang
Boar
Bodak
Boneclaw
Bullette
Cambion
Carrion Crawler
Chimera
Choker
Chuul
Colossus
Crocodile
Cyclops
Dark One
Death Knight
Demon
Destrachan
Devil
Devourer
Displacer Beast
Dracolich
Dragon
Dragonborn
Drake
Drider
Drow
Dryad
Dwarf
Eidolon
Eladron
Elemental
Elf
Ettercap
Ettin
Flameskull
Fomorian
Foulspawn
Galeb Duhr
Gargoyle
Ghost
Ghoul
Giant
Gibbering Beast
Githyanki
Githzerai
Gnoll
Gnome
Goblin
Golem
Gorgon
Grell
Grick
Griffon
Grimlock
Guardian
Hag
Hafling
Harpy
Helmed Horror
Homonculus
Hook Horror
Horse
Hound
Human
Hydra
Hyena
Kobold
Kruthik
Kuo-Toa
Lamia
Larva Mage
Lich (Lich Vestige)
Lizardfolk
Lycanthrope
Magma Beast
Manticore
Marut
Medusa
Mind Flayer
Minotaur
Mummy
Naga
Nightmare
Nightwalker
Ogre
Oni
Ooze
Orc
Orcus
Otyugh
Owlbear
Panther
Purple Worm
Quickling
Rakshasa
Rat
Roc
Roper
Rot Harbinger
Sahugin
Salamander
Satyr
Scorpion
Shadar-Kai
Shambling Mound
Shifter
Skeleton
Skull Lord
Slaad
Snake
Sorrowsworn
Specter
Sphinx
Spider
Stirge
Swordwing
Tiefling
Treant
Troglodyte
Troll
Umber Hulk
Unicorn
Vampire (Vampire Spawn)
Vine horror
Warforged
Wight
Wolf
Worg
Wraith
Wyvern
Yuan-Ti
Zombie

LoopyZebra
2008-05-27, 06:04 PM
Woo! Sabertooth Bears!

What? The inclusion of sabertooth bears is obviously the most important change in 4th Edition.

Charity
2008-05-27, 06:07 PM
Deities PHB

GOOD, LAWFUL GOOD, AND UNALIGNED DEITIES

Avandra
Bahamut
Corellon
Erathis
Ioun
Kord
Melora
Moradin
Pelor
Raven Queen
Sehanine

Only ones I see listed in the players handbook.


Know it all rangers
Originally Posted by Twizz Stonefist
Ranger

Level 2 Utility Exploits

Crucial Advice Ranger Utility 2
You are wise in all things. The sooner your friends realize this, the
safer and better off they’ ll be.
Encounter Martial
Immediate Reaction Ranged 5
Trigger: An ally within range that you can see or hear makes a
skill check using a skill in which you’re trained
Effect: Grant the ally the ability to reroll the skill check, with
a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 06:08 PM
Eeeeeeee Drow Stats. <3

*pre-emptive optimization!*

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 06:15 PM
Woo! Sabertooth Bears!

What? The inclusion of sabertooth bears is obviously the most important change in 4th Edition.

...Sabertooth. Bears.

Freaking awesome.

Rutee
2008-05-27, 06:22 PM
Woo! Sabertooth Bears!

What? The inclusion of sabertooth bears is obviously the most important change in 4th Edition.

Number One Threat to America? BEARS!

Skyserpent
2008-05-27, 06:24 PM
As a Wizard, it is my obligation to now make a Sabretooth Owlbear.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:25 PM
Question, guys: Should I do a corny speak about the Fourth Advent, or should I just start posting music appropriate to the occassion to get in the mood/read faster?

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 06:33 PM
Give to me your music.

LoopyZebra
2008-05-27, 06:37 PM
As a Wizard, it is my obligation to now make a Sabretooth Owlbear.

Well, that's just silly. :)

Xyk
2008-05-27, 06:39 PM
Number One Threat to America? BEARS!

Anyone else get the colbert reference?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-27, 06:48 PM
For Anyone who is feeling nervous (AKA everyone):

Carry On Wayward Son... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw6_VXPwm6U)


Fast ones for speeding it up:

Cowboys from Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV2xVvJddxY)

The Number of the Beast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUOpUqni0_g)

Communication Breakdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiL1sjGIcew)

The Devil Went Down To Georgia (Heavy Metal version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5FXfmkDKhA)




All rounders:

Cult of Personality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ5SVDYBNrY)

Good Times Bad Times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvU2kYHNoIQ)

Back In Black (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwIvBNsSywQ)

Highway to hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erJc4dzZ3IA)


Big Ones:

Green Grass and High Tides (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R82OM5tzcrk)

Sweet Child 'O Mine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p6QtMn5OzY)

Free Bird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1mCQKuvzCM)

Stairway to Heaven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKg4g9zMeHI)

Paradise City (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYa-MOJthWM)


Hope that's 'nuff for now.

Toliudar
2008-05-27, 06:49 PM
But just think how cool SABRETOOTH bears with lasers would be!

Charity
2008-05-27, 06:50 PM
Number One Threat to America? BEARS!

This is because they never was their hands
http://www.darthvato.com/Funny/bear.jpg

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 07:19 PM
Monsters have Healing Surges.


Originally Posted by ForbidenMaster
How many healing surges do monsters have?

Heroic Tier: 1
Paragon Tier: 2
Epic Tier: 3

Xsjado
2008-05-27, 07:34 PM
Anyone else get the colbert reference?

Everybody.

Also: Squeee 4e :smallsmile:

Enguhl
2008-05-27, 08:13 PM
Number One Threat to America? BEARS!

You mean robot bears!

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 08:18 PM
Prestidigitation is in as an at-will wizard class feature.

JaxGaret
2008-05-27, 08:28 PM
ITT: Epic win.

Yay for us!

Rutee
2008-05-27, 08:35 PM
But just think how cool SABRETOOTH bears with lasers would be!

First homebrew Template:
WITH FRIKKIN' LASERS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEAD

Reel On, Love
2008-05-27, 08:37 PM
First homebrew Template:
WITH FRIKKIN' LASERS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEAD

you know, this'd be really easy. It just... gives them an at-will attack, let's call it Dexterity vs. Reflex, that does radiant damage.

Chronicled
2008-05-27, 08:47 PM
I'm a little disappointed that there's only 4 epic destinies in the PHB.

Otherwise, liking what I see!

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 08:49 PM
Check pg 54 of the PHB. The very bottom right corner of the page says "Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow."

Quick, come up with classes for each!

Primal = Druid, Barbarian...
Ki = Monk..

EvilElitest
2008-05-27, 08:52 PM
sweet playable monsters
from
EE

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 08:58 PM
Obviously Psychic Warrior will be the Fighter (i forgot the name for the tank role...) for Psionic... and Psion will be the Controller.

Striker ... soulblade?
Leader... Ardent?

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 09:00 PM
It's Defender, Sam.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 09:05 PM
That's the word!

Thanks, Scint. :smallbiggrin:

Scintillatus
2008-05-27, 09:12 PM
Quite welcome. :D

I'm not fond of Ki as a power source, I don't see how it's much different from Martial, and Primal/Elemental are kind of similar I guess? Shadow seems interesting though.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 09:17 PM
I'm thinking Primal may mean Nature... whereas elemental is gonna be the earth/fire/wind/water... but I don't know where the divide will be... :smalleek:

Justyn
2008-05-27, 09:21 PM
Number One Threat to America? BEARS!

No, bears being ridden by communists (http://www.russian-victories.ru/bear_cavalry.jpg) are the number one threat to the safety of America.

And once again, lizardfolk get to be not but monsters to be slaughtered by the PCs; I can exept them being in the Monster Manual, but they don't even get to be playable monsters? And just to add insult to injury, they make up a new species to be a playable monster.

Rutee
2008-05-27, 09:29 PM
Quite welcome. :D

I'm not fond of Ki as a power source, I don't see how it's much different from Martial, and Primal/Elemental are kind of similar I guess? Shadow seems interesting though.

Yeah, Ki makes me want to stab people. In the face. With a cannon.

I think Primal is Nature though. Also, to confirm speculation:

3e CG = 4e Good
3e LE = 4e Evil

LoopyZebra
2008-05-27, 09:31 PM
There's definitely enough base classes and prestige classes in 3.5 to cover all the power sources and roles in 4th Ed. We also know the ones that are covered in the PHB and the FRCS, and the ultra-likely conversions, like Bard (Arcane Leader), Barbarian (Primal Defender), Druid (Primal Controller or Leader), Monk (Ki Striker) or the Psionic Classes, who practically write themselves up in terms of role and power source. Ki could just be a roundup of the East Asian themed classes, like Monk and Samurai (Ki Defender). Primal, Psionic, and Ki seem to have lots of classes in 3.5 that could be modified for the four role system.

Shadow and Elemental seem to be the ones who will have the most new content. Sorcerer's been highly speculated to be Elemental, although that may or may not be confirmed. Some dragon based classes may make in into elemental, as may Shugenja (the elemental ones from Complete Divine?). Shadowcaster (the one from Tome of Magic, not sure on the name) was the only true Shadow source character in 3.5, though it is possible that Assassin, Blackguard, or A Necromancer type could sneak in.

I do hope they make the Druid and Bard soon though. I've got one player who looked utterly hurt and defeated when he found out he couldn't play a Druid at launch.

RTGoodman
2008-05-27, 09:41 PM
I'm nowhere near being a fanboy, and I really don't like Drow in general, but it seems that a Drow Rogue would be ridiculous. I mean, there are a lot of way to gain combat advantage, but that second encounter power basically means you get to use sneak attack against one enemy for every attack you make, but only one creature per encounter.


Now I just hope B&N and my local postal carriers screw up and bring me my stuff early too...

SamTheCleric
2008-05-27, 09:52 PM
Time to Theorize!

Primal
Defender - Barbarian
Controller - Druid
Leader - Spirit Shaman
Striker - ?

Ki
Defender - Monk
Striker - Ninja
Leader - Samurai
Controller - Wu Jen?

Elemental
Defender -
Striker - Sorcerer?
Leader - Shugenja
Controller -

Shadow
Defender -
Striker -
Leader -
Controller -

Rutee
2008-05-27, 09:58 PM
Ki:
LEader - Samurai
Defender - Monk
Striker - Ninja
Controller - Wu Jen


I sincerely hope Shugenja are Elemental. It /makes sense/, dammit.

EvilElitest
2008-05-27, 10:00 PM
as i said before, monster PCs,
from
EE

Rutee
2008-05-27, 11:48 PM
Welp. 4e just won the game.

Rune of Peace: Cleric Attack 5
You smash your weapon into your foe, leaving behind a glowing
rune that prevents your foe from making attacks.
Daily ✦ Charm, Divine,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target cannot
attack (save ends).
Miss: The target cannot attack you until the end of your next
turn.

That's pretty much the best thing I've heard all day. And I've heard an awful lot today.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-27, 11:57 PM
Yeah, Ki makes me want to stab people. In the face. With a cannon.

Didn't Guts do that the the snake demon at the beginning of the Berserk anime? (Well, manga as well, but I didn't feel like digging that up to check) Oh, and I agree with you on the point of Ki as a power source.

Shadow will be an interesting power source, and indeed, Shugenja (or something that is a shugenja with a non-oriental name) should be an Elemental leader.

To further the speculation, I'll guess that shadow will be shadow plane related stuff (duh) which includes death. So
Shadow
Striker - Assassin
Controller - Shadowcaster (a given, I think)
Defender - Dark Knight (not batman)/Blackguard (paladin with necrotic powers?)
Leader - I've got nothin'

Elemental
Controller - Wu jen

Re: Rune of Peace: Cleric Attack 5
That is indeed win.

Edea
2008-05-28, 12:18 AM
Maze is in. Archmages can even use it once per encounter. This makes me warm on the inside.

Abardam
2008-05-28, 12:50 AM
Welp. 4e just won the game.

Rune of Peace: Cleric Attack 5
You smash your weapon into your foe, leaving behind a glowing
rune that prevents your foe from making attacks.Give peace a chance, man! *bashes face in with hammer*

Edea
2008-05-28, 01:09 AM
Seems like money is the new mana. Wizards and clerics are still more proficient with ritual casting than the other classes.

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 01:22 AM
Unfortunately, the ENWorld info has largely been modded away at this point.

Xefas
2008-05-28, 02:09 AM
To further the speculation, I'll guess that shadow will be shadow plane related stuff (duh) which includes death. So
Shadow
Striker - Assassin
Controller - Shadowcaster (a given, I think)
Defender - Dark Knight (not batman)/Blackguard (paladin with necrotic powers?)
Leader - I've got nothin'


My guess would be:

Striker - Assassin
Controller - Shadowcaster
Defender - Hexblade
Leader - Necromancer

In this instance the Necromancer might have undead minions that he uses powers on to move around and attack with rather than using powers on other players to make them move around and attack.

The Hexblade's "Curse" could work as a mark, with his powers mainly revolving around doing nasty shadow-defendery things to the person he's Marked/Cursed.

Hawriel
2008-05-28, 02:30 AM
No one here has thought of a sabratooth bear befor wotc stuck it in 4th ed? How sad.

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 02:41 AM
...Sabertooth. Bears.

Freaking awesome.

What!? No lasers?

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 02:42 AM
My guess would be:

Striker - Assassin
Controller - Shadowcaster
Defender - Hexblade
Leader - Necromancer

In this instance the Necromancer might have undead minions that he uses powers on to move around and attack with rather than using powers on other players to make them move around and attack.

The Hexblade's "Curse" could work as a mark, with his powers mainly revolving around doing nasty shadow-defendery things to the person he's Marked/Cursed.

I agree with you on the Hexblade, I'd forgotten about that class. I also wanted to say Necromancer for the leader, but the leader role thus far has been about augmenting the party, and the necromancer leading an undead horde doesn't really fit into that role.

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 04:33 AM
I know this horse is beign beaten to death and raised as undead many, many times by now, but I'm the only one that think the starpact life sparks power sound incredibly like a videogame? Not a mmorpg, but a platform. Now all you need is a power to kill enemies jumping on their heads. :D

Moak
2008-05-28, 04:50 AM
Shadow???

SHADOW?

Now I'm VERY happy.

Sigh...but no Incarnum...sigh...

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 05:09 AM
Obviously Psychic Warrior will be the Fighter (i forgot the name for the tank role...) for Psionic... and Psion will be the Controller.

Striker ... soulblade?
Leader... Ardent?

I'm inclined to say Wilder for the psionic leader - they're charisma-based already, and if they're staying in the game at all, it'd be the handiest way to give them a niche separate from Psions. On the other hand, they may just ditch Wilders and use Ardents as you suggest, who do seem to fit well. On the third hand, Wilders may stay, but be strikers or controllers, since they don't seem afraid of overlap (Rogues and Rangers).

bosssmiley
2008-05-28, 05:15 AM
Ioun is a *god* now? Wow, the Realms have changed more than anticipated.

Cheers Charity. You are indeed filled with Great British Win.

Drascin
2008-05-28, 05:31 AM
Give peace a chance, man! *bashes face in with hammer*

PACIFIST CRUSH!

Sorry, I had to do it

Anyway, great thread. I'll be hanging around, here's to hoping we get some more details!

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 05:39 AM
Anyway, great thread. I'll be hanging around, here's to hoping we get some more details!

What would you like to know?

Morty
2008-05-28, 05:59 AM
So, clerics bash people with maces to make them peaceful? That's hardcore. It's like the Russians said: "We'll fight for peace to the last bullet!".
Also, give me stats for goblins. Give me, I say!

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 06:00 AM
PC Goblins, or Monster Goblins? :smallbiggrin:

Drascin
2008-05-28, 06:03 AM
What would you like to know?

Mostly, I'm pretty interested in as many details as possible about the melee classes, and how they scale - my players like to play melee, and I like to DM mid-to-high levels, so I'm interested in knowing what my NPCs are going to have to oppose :smalltongue:. Also, as much as I can find about the powers - you know, if it's mostly damage scaling, if the melees can cause status effects now and how reliably, weird effects, etc. For example, that Storm of destruction thing in the first post was nice.

And then, as a personal liking, I have a preference for warlocks, but what I've found is almost unanimously about the Starpact ones - I was hoping a couple things about the other choices would drop around :smallsmile:.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 06:16 AM
I need to know the other two wizard at-will powers for level 1... :smallbiggrin:

Morty
2008-05-28, 06:18 AM
PC Goblins, or Monster Goblins? :smallbiggrin:

PC goblins. Goblin Rogue is the first character I'm going to play in 4ed right after Half-Elf Wizard.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 06:21 AM
+2 Dex, +2 Charisma. Small, six-square speed, Low-light vision. +2 to Stealth, +2 to Thievery. +1 to Reflex.

The Goblin racial power allows you to shift one square whenever an enemy misses you.

Seems like your character will be pretty good!

Kioran
2008-05-28, 06:24 AM
I think Primal is Nature though. Also, to confirm speculation:

3e CG = 4e Good
3e LE = 4e Evil

Makes sense, as their prime market(the US) is a C(big honking C)n(small n) society. Also sad to see, but eh......on the other hand, genocide is most certainly evil, but any predominantly lawful human would consider Tiefling-genocide a bloody great idea. So with some races lawful = moar evil. most certainlyy true.

Morty
2008-05-28, 06:35 AM
+2 Dex, +2 Charisma. Small, six-square speed, Low-light vision. +2 to Stealth, +2 to Thievery. +1 to Reflex.

The Goblin racial power allows you to shift one square whenever an enemy misses you.

Seems like your character will be pretty good!

So, they went from having Cha penalty to getting a bonus to it? Interesting. They're still sneaky though, and that's great. Thanks for the info.
Now it's just the question on where the heck I'm going to get 4ed books.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 06:38 AM
So, clerics bash people with maces to make them peaceful? That's hardcore. It's like the Russians said: "We'll fight for peace to the last bullet!".
Also, give me stats for goblins. Give me, I say!
PC Goblins:
+2 DEX, +2 CHA (!?!)
Size: Small, Speed: 6 squares, Vision: low-light
+2 Stealth, +2 Thievery
Goblin Reflexes: +1 racial bonus on Reflex defense
Goblin Tactics: 'Goblin Tactics' as an at-will power

Goblin Tactics, goblin racial power
At-Will, immediate reaction, personal
Trigger: you are missed by a melee attack
Effect: you shift one square.



Mostly, I'm pretty interested in as many details as possible about the melee classes, and how they scale - my players like to play melee, and I like to DM mid-to-high levels, so I'm interested in knowing what my NPCs are going to have to oppose :smalltongue:. Also, as much as I can find about the powers - you know, if it's mostly damage scaling, if the melees can cause status effects now and how reliably, weird effects, etc. For example, that Storm of destruction thing in the first post was nice.

And then, as a personal liking, I have a preference for warlocks, but what I've found is almost unanimously about the Starpact ones - I was hoping a couple things about the other choices would drop around :smallsmile:.

Define "melee classes"--that covers everything from Warlords (leaders) to Fighters to Rogues (strikers). They seem to scale pretty well.

Here's a level 7 Warlord encounter power, "Surprise Attack":

Surprise Attack - Warlord Attack 7
Encounter - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. An ally within 5
squares of you makes a basic attack with combat advantage
as a free action against a target of his or her choice.
--Tactical Presence: The ally gains a bonus to the attack roll
equal to your Intelligence modifier.

And a level 9 daily power, "Knock Them Down":
Knock Them Down - Warlord Attack 9
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone. Every ally within 10 squares of you can
move 3 squares and make a melee basic attack against
one target of his or her choice as a free action. These attacks
deal no damage but knock a target prone on a hit.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is knocked prone.

Level 10 Utility, "Defensive Rally":
Defensive Rally - Warlord Utility 10
Daily - Healing, Martial
Standard Action Close burst 5
Target: Each ally in burst
Effect: Each target can spend a healing surge and make
a saving throw against any single effect that a save can
end. In addition, all targets gain a +2 power bonus to all
defenses until the end of your next turn.

Level 23 Encounter, "Great Dragon War Cry":
Great Dragon War Cry - Warlord Attack 23
Encounter - Fear, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
weakened until the end of your next turn.
--Inspiring Presence: Until the end of the encounter, your
allies gain a power bonus to their attack rolls against
weakened enemies equal to your Charisma modifier.


---

Rogue powers of the same level (rather different, due to the role differences):

Rogue Level 7 Encounter power, "Imperiling Strike":
Imperiling Strike - Rogue Attack 7
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes
a –1 penalty to AC and Reflex defense until the end of
your next turn.
--Brutal Scoundrel: The penalty to AC and Reflex defense is
equal to your Strength modifier.

Level 9 Daily, "Knockout":
Knockout - Rogue Attack 9
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is
knocked unconscious (save ends). If the unconscious target
takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is dazed until the end of
your next turn.

Level 10 Utility, "Shadow Stride":
Shadow Stride - Rogue Utility 10
At-Will - Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.

Level 23 Encounter, "Knave's Gambit":
Knave’s Gambit - Rogue Attack 23
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action
against an adjacent target other than you. You choose the
target of its attack.
--Artful Dodger: The attack you cause with a miss gains a
bonus to the attack roll and the damage roll equal to your
Charisma modifier.

---

A couple of mid-level Fighter powers, and a couple of mid-level Paladin powers, for comparison:


Level 13 Fighter Encounter, "Silverstep":
Silverstep - Fighter Attack 13
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you push
the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: You shift 1 square.
--Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you can
shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier.
vs. level 13 Paladin Encounter, "Entangling Smite":
Entangling Smite - Paladin Attack 13
Encounter - Divine,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2[W] + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is
immobilized until the end of your next turn.

Fighter level 15 Daily, "Unyielding Avalanche" ("Stance" means it lasts for the encounter, until you activate another Stance power, or for five minutes, which is the out-of-combat "encounter" duration):

Unyielding Avalanche - Fighter Attack 15
Daily - Healing, Martial, Stance, Weapon
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration equal to your Constitution
modifier, a +1 power bonus to AC, and a +1 power bonus
to saving throws. Any enemy that starts its turn adjacent
to you takes 1[W] damage and is slowed until the end
of its turn, as long as you are able to make opportunity
attacks.
vs. Paladin level 15 Daily, "True Nemesis":
True Nemesis - Paladin Attack 15
Daily - Divine, Implement
Standard Action, Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, whenever the target
is within 5 squares of you and attacks you or an ally, you
can make a secondary attack against the target as an
immediate reaction.
--Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
--Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage.
--Miss: Half damage.

Fighter level 16 Utility, "Interposing Shield":
Interposing Shield - Fighter Utility 16
Encounter - Martial
Immediate Interrupt, Melee 1
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by an attack
Effect: The ally gains a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex
defense against the triggering attack. If you are using a
shield, increase the bonus to +4.
vs. Paladin level 16 Utility, "Angelic Intercession":
Angelic Intercession - Paladin Utility 16
Daily - Divine, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Trigger: An ally within 5 squares of you is hit by an attack
Effect: You teleport adjacent to the ally and are hit by the
attack instead.

---

And a Swordsmaster (Fighter paragon path) power that seemed really good, Crescendo Sword (Level 20 Daily Attack):
Crescendo Sword - Swordmaster Attack 20
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or a heavy
blade (not a polearm).
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: If you hit at least one of your enemies, you regain one
daily power you have already used. If you miss all enemies,
you regain one encounter power you have already used.

---


I need to know the other two wizard at-will powers for level 1... :smallbiggrin:

Cloud of Daggers:
Cloud of Daggers - Wizard Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Force, Implement
Standard Action, Area 1 square within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in square
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier force damage.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.
Effect: The power’s area is filled with sharp daggers of force.
Any creature that enters the area or starts its turn there
takes force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum
1). The cloud remains in place until the end of your
next turn. You can dispel it earlier as a minor action.

Thunderwave (which I like):
Thunderwave - Wizard Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action, Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you
push the target a number of squares equal to your Wisdom
modifier.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.

Jarlax
2008-05-28, 06:50 AM
Quite welcome. :D

I'm not fond of Ki as a power source, I don't see how it's much different from Martial, and Primal/Elemental are kind of similar I guess? Shadow seems interesting though.

Ki will almost certainly = oriental adventures, a Asian splatbook with the likes of warblade, monk, ninja, etc. all in one place for those who want them and easily forbidden by those who want a traditional game. (rather than 3e where monk was core and ultimately more difficult to remove from a game)

Morty
2008-05-28, 06:54 AM
Hm, a lot of stuff here.
By the looks of it, Warlord is Rogue's best friend. A good deal of his exploits allow his allies to move around and now we see one that grants combat advantage.
I love the Thunderwave spell. I wonder what the 3rd Wizard's main attribute will be though. And I hope Half-Elf wizard is still a viable option.
And the more I think about it, the more Charisma bonus for goblins makes sense. I mean, they're small and weak and surrounded by hobgoblins and bugbears. So they have to be smart and fast-talk their way out of trouble. Intelligence might fit it better, but Charisma also works.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 06:55 AM
I'm cool with the Monk, but I just don't agree with a seperate power source. It's going to lead to arguments about power levels, and releasing a supplement of base-classes-but-not is silly. Let the Rogues be Ninjas, the Fighters be Warblades, etc; I'd rather have new stuff like the Bard, Sorceror, Barbarian or Druid, rather than rehashes of existing class concepts.

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 06:58 AM
What about non-combat abilities? There is something abut them?

Of any kind. At this point I'm not picky, you know, beggars can't be choosers, and all that.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 07:00 AM
Do you mean non-combat encounters, or stuff like rituals and the like? The Mage gets a set of parlour tricks - Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Light - non-combat stuff is assuredly in, but most of it is in the form of rituals.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:01 AM
Rachel... I could kiss you. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 07:05 AM
Hm, a lot of stuff here.
By the looks of it, Warlord is Rogue's best friend. A good deal of his exploits allow his allies to move around and now we see one that grants combat advantage.
A number of the Rogue's own exploits allow them to gain combat advantage for next round.
But, yes, Warlord and Rogue have some solid synergy.


I love the Thunderwave spell. I wonder what the 3rd Wizard's main attribute will be though. And I hope Half-Elf wizard is still a viable option.
The wizards have INT, and WIS is helpful. Beyond that there's CON, but it's tertiary.
With their +2 CON, +2 CHA, half-elves don't make especially great wizards, but you could certainly make one.

CON can potentially come into play with the staff wizard's implement:
"Staff of Defense: A staff of defense grants you a +1 bonus to AC. In addition, once per encounter as an immediate interrupt, you gain a bonus to defense against one attack equal to your Constitution modifier. You can declare the bonus after the Dungeon Master has already told you the damage total. You must wield your staff to benefit from these features. This form of mastery is useful for all wizards, particularly if you dabble in both control and
damage-dealing spells."
I'd take the Orb or the Wand, though. Staff would be my last choice. Basically, wizards only need CON for extra healing surges/Fort defense.



What about non-combat abilities? There is something abut them?

Of any kind. At this point I'm not picky, you know, beggars can't be choosers, and all that.
Rituals. Some of the utility powers, too--especially for some classes, like Rogue. A level 2 Paladin utility encounter power gives +4 on a Diplomacy check, for example; a level 22 Wizard utility daily power is Magnificent Mansion, which lasts for 8 hours.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:07 AM
Holy Crap... that Crescendo Sword power is amazing.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 07:13 AM
Holy Crap... that Crescendo Sword power is amazing.

Yeah, it does seem very good. For comparison:

Iron Vanguard level 20 Daily, "Indomitable Strength":
Indomitable Strength - Iron Vanguard Attack 20
Daily - Healing, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square and it is knocked prone. In addition, the
target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: You can spend a healing surge.

Kensei level 20 Daily, "Weaponsoul Dance":
Weaponsoul Dance - Kensei Attack 20
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.
Effect: You can shift 5 squares, and then make a secondary
attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary
target
Secondary Attack: Strength + 2 vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.
Effect: You can shift 5 squares, and then make a tertiary
attack.
Tertiary Target: One creature other than the primary and
secondary targets
Tertiary Attack: Strength + 3 vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 07:14 AM
Rachel, have you seen any mention about the push/pull/slide mechanics being used for punting bad guys off cliffs yet?

I think I might cry if I can't do that. Or just houserule in a Warlord power called "THIS IS [COUNTRYNAME]".

Morty
2008-05-28, 07:16 AM
The wizards have INT, and WIS is helpful. Beyond that there's CON, but it's tertiary.
With their +2 CON, +2 CHA, half-elves don't make especially great wizards, but you could certainly make one.

I guess such character can still be good at stuff wizards normally don't excel at, i.e talking and surviving hits as well as mulitclassing.


I'd take the Orb or the Wand, though. Staff would be my last choice. Basically, wizards only need CON for extra healing surges/Fort defense.

I personally choose the staff for style, I just like the image of the wizard with a staff. And mage blocking attacks with his staff is something I had in mind for a long time.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 07:17 AM
Rachel, have you seen any mention about the push/pull/slide mechanics being used for punting bad guys off cliffs yet?

I think I might cry if I can't do that. Or just houserule in a Warlord power called "THIS IS [COUNTRYNAME]".
You can push people off cliffs (roofs, etc), but it's not that easy--they get at least one, maybe two chances to prevent it somehow, and if they do, they fall prone at the edge.

They had a Warlord power called "Feather me yon oaf!" in playtesting, apparently. It's been renamed to something much less glee-inspiring, which is sad.

Edit: found it:

Catching Yourself: If a power or a bull rush forces you over a precipice or into a pit, you can immediately make a saving throw to avoid going over the edge. This saving throw works just like a normal saving throw, except you make it as soon as you reach the edge, not at the end of your turn.
So you have a 45% chance of actually booting them over.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:17 AM
Wow, that Kensai power is great as well...

Then again, these are level 20 powers... they SHOULD be great :)

Hmm, what other questions do I have...

Can you give me an example of a non-combat feat, if they exist? Does skill training only allow you to become trained in a class skill, or any skill? Is the spiked chain still broken?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 07:19 AM
They had a Warlord power called "Feather me yon oaf!" in playtesting, apparently. It's been renamed to something much less glee-inspiring, which is sad.

Speaking of which, what happened to the Purple Phoenix, Silver Snowstorm, or whatever the new (four?) wizard school names used to be?

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 07:20 AM
Linguistics is a good example; you learn three more languages. You can learn any skill at all, not just class skills (but class training feats restrict it to class skills, I believe) and I don't know if it's even in.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 07:22 AM
Wow, that Kensai power is great as well...

Then again, these are level 20 powers... they SHOULD be great :)

Hmm, what other questions do I have...

Can you give me an example of a non-combat feat, if they exist? Does skill training only allow you to become trained in a class skill, or any skill? Is the spiked chain still broken?
Skill Training allows you to become trained in any skill.

The spiked chain exists, and isn't broken. But then, it never was broken--or even worth the feat! A reach weapon (guisarme if you want to trip) was basically as good, since you could always five-foot step away, and a spiked gauntlet took care of the rest.
It doesn't seem to have "adjacent reach" anymore, just normal reach.



Speaking of which, what happened to the Purple Phoenix, Silver Snowstorm, or whatever the new (four?) wizard school names used to be?
They seem to be totally gone, unfortunately. I guess Wizards decided people wanted blander names.


Noncombat feats include Jack of all Trades (+2 to untrained skill checks) and Sure Climber (+1 athletics, climb at normal speed on any surface).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:26 AM
My mind is just awash with questions I want to ask... but I can't formulate the words!

Let's get some opinion. How do you like it? What's your favorite thing about it so far?

What is your favorite monster?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 07:30 AM
My mind is just awash with questions I want to ask... but I can't formulate the words!

Let's get some opinion. How do you like it? What's your favorite thing about it so far?
I think it's great. My favorite thing about it so far is how the tanks feel tanky, the rogue feels mobile and deadly (you're scooting around, hitting hard, moving away), and characters basically play like they should (from what I've seen in the preview adventure and in the mechanics). I also like the Raven Queen.
Oh, and that level 1 isn't a drag anymore, and that casters aren't ridiculously superior at high levels and narcoleptic at low levels.


What is your favorite monster?
I'm not big on monsters, haven't gone through the MM in detail. Probably the various Eladrin, they're very stylish. (The entry includes an Eladrin Fey Knight, a Ghaele of Winter, and a Bralani of Autumn Winds.)

Edit: sleep now, more answers when I get back.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 07:38 AM
The spiked chain exists, and isn't broken. But then, it never was broken--or even worth the feat!
That would be why it showed up in so many builds... :smalltongue:



They seem to be totally gone, unfortunately. I guess Wizards decided people wanted blander names.
I'm glad to hear they were listening to forum feedback. They can always design a specific setting that does have the Purple Phoenix school.

I'm seeing a couple of powers, particularly rogue and warlord powers, that only work well with one of the two "builds" of the class... does this significantly limit the amount of (effective) options, or is there plenty of other powers to choose from still?

Telonius
2008-05-28, 07:48 AM
Hold on a second. They have Orcus in the Monster list.

Orcus. In the monster list. :smallamused:

DM: (Rolls random encounter)
DM: ....
Players: What?
DM: Tell you what, let's just call it a night.

Tola
2008-05-28, 08:00 AM
...Hmm.

I've always liked Paladins. The idea of Warlocks, too.

Any more details you can spare?

Also, Level 16 Paladin Power='Cover'. This is NOT a complaint.

Taking the hits for an ally is the sort of thing that should always be doable, and especially by Paladins.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 08:09 AM
Conjuration effects are vastly different, and I would say nerfed. Most summoned creatures don't take add significant actions, just change how the battlefield works in some way. At least, that's the Cleric stuffs. Fell asleep, back to reading.

Incidental Note: Anyone worrying about clerics being Healbots doesn't. There's ways to heal without CXW, which involve hitting people. There's also quite a bit of powers that turn Clerics into meleers, though I don't think they can get the damage output of a Striker. Their melee has buffs and debuffs though.

Drascin
2008-05-28, 08:23 AM
Define "melee classes"--that covers everything from Warlords (leaders) to Fighters to Rogues (strikers). They seem to scale pretty well.

Here's a level 7 Warlord encounter power, "Surprise Attack":

Surprise Attack - Warlord Attack 7
Encounter - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. An ally within 5
squares of you makes a basic attack with combat advantage
as a free action against a target of his or her choice.
--Tactical Presence: The ally gains a bonus to the attack roll
equal to your Intelligence modifier.

And a level 9 daily power, "Knock Them Down":
Knock Them Down - Warlord Attack 9
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone. Every ally within 10 squares of you can
move 3 squares and make a melee basic attack against
one target of his or her choice as a free action. These attacks
deal no damage but knock a target prone on a hit.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is knocked prone.

Level 10 Utility, "Defensive Rally":
Defensive Rally - Warlord Utility 10
Daily - Healing, Martial
Standard Action Close burst 5
Target: Each ally in burst
Effect: Each target can spend a healing surge and make
a saving throw against any single effect that a save can
end. In addition, all targets gain a +2 power bonus to all
defenses until the end of your next turn.

Level 23 Encounter, "Great Dragon War Cry":
Great Dragon War Cry - Warlord Attack 23
Encounter - Fear, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
weakened until the end of your next turn.
--Inspiring Presence: Until the end of the encounter, your
allies gain a power bonus to their attack rolls against
weakened enemies equal to your Charisma modifier.


---

Rogue powers of the same level (rather different, due to the role differences):

Rogue Level 7 Encounter power, "Imperiling Strike":
Imperiling Strike - Rogue Attack 7
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes
a –1 penalty to AC and Reflex defense until the end of
your next turn.
--Brutal Scoundrel: The penalty to AC and Reflex defense is
equal to your Strength modifier.

Level 9 Daily, "Knockout":
Knockout - Rogue Attack 9
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is
knocked unconscious (save ends). If the unconscious target
takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.
Miss: Half damage, and the target is dazed until the end of
your next turn.

Level 10 Utility, "Shadow Stride":
Shadow Stride - Rogue Utility 10
At-Will - Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hiding to use this power. You can move
your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have
cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for
moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden
during your movement.

Level 23 Encounter, "Knave's Gambit":
Knave’s Gambit - Rogue Attack 23
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action
against an adjacent target other than you. You choose the
target of its attack.
--Artful Dodger: The attack you cause with a miss gains a
bonus to the attack roll and the damage roll equal to your
Charisma modifier.

---

A couple of mid-level Fighter powers, and a couple of mid-level Paladin powers, for comparison:


Level 13 Fighter Encounter, "Silverstep":
Silverstep - Fighter Attack 13
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you push
the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: You shift 1 square.
--Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you can
shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier.
vs. level 13 Paladin Encounter, "Entangling Smite":
Entangling Smite - Paladin Attack 13
Encounter - Divine,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2[W] + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is
immobilized until the end of your next turn.

Fighter level 15 Daily, "Unyielding Avalanche" ("Stance" means it lasts for the encounter, until you activate another Stance power, or for five minutes, which is the out-of-combat "encounter" duration):

Unyielding Avalanche - Fighter Attack 15
Daily - Healing, Martial, Stance, Weapon
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration equal to your Constitution
modifier, a +1 power bonus to AC, and a +1 power bonus
to saving throws. Any enemy that starts its turn adjacent
to you takes 1[W] damage and is slowed until the end
of its turn, as long as you are able to make opportunity
attacks.
vs. Paladin level 15 Daily, "True Nemesis":
True Nemesis - Paladin Attack 15
Daily - Divine, Implement
Standard Action, Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, whenever the target
is within 5 squares of you and attacks you or an ally, you
can make a secondary attack against the target as an
immediate reaction.
--Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
--Hit: 2d10 + Charisma modifier damage.
--Miss: Half damage.

Fighter level 16 Utility, "Interposing Shield":
Interposing Shield - Fighter Utility 16
Encounter - Martial
Immediate Interrupt, Melee 1
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by an attack
Effect: The ally gains a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex
defense against the triggering attack. If you are using a
shield, increase the bonus to +4.
vs. Paladin level 16 Utility, "Angelic Intercession":
Angelic Intercession - Paladin Utility 16
Daily - Divine, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Trigger: An ally within 5 squares of you is hit by an attack
Effect: You teleport adjacent to the ally and are hit by the
attack instead.

---

And a Swordsmaster (Fighter paragon path) power that seemed really good, Crescendo Sword (Level 20 Daily Attack):
Crescendo Sword - Swordmaster Attack 20
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or a heavy
blade (not a polearm).
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: If you hit at least one of your enemies, you regain one
daily power you have already used. If you miss all enemies,
you regain one encounter power you have already used.

I think I love you :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, by melee, I mostly meant defender/warlord stuff, archetipical fighter or paladin.

A lot of good stuff there... that Crescendo Sword is rather awesome. Are there any restrictions on it, I wonder?

Also liking the paladin stuff, particularly that True Nemesis stance.

All in all, its looking really nice. Many thanks for the info!

Morty
2008-05-28, 08:31 AM
To anyone with MM: are there any actually Good(by which I mean alignment) stuff there?

Jack Zander
2008-05-28, 08:38 AM
So minion isn't a template...

Maybe it's just a creature type (like swarm) that you can't just slap on to anything you want. If so, most all of my issues with minions are now moot.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 08:39 AM
So minion isn't a template...

Maybe it's just a creature type (like swarm) that you can't just slap on to anything you want.

Looks that way... Minions are built to BE minions. :smallsmile:

Abardam
2008-05-28, 08:39 AM
I want to see some of the fighter weapon-specific powers. Like, what's the difference between a sword and board fighter, an axe-wielding berserker, or a spearman.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 08:47 AM
Hmm...Rachel, what would you say is the most powerful paragon path/s and powers? Apparently, there's basically no reason NOT to take Swordsmaster, unless everything else it has is made of fail. Especially if you can use Crescendo Sword's ability to refresh itself, which is more or less the equivalent of having it as an At Will. Unless other classes are even stronger or equal, every meleer is going to multiclass into fighter for Swordsmaster, because An extra daily is nothing to scoff at.

Also, which, d'you think, is the most powerful base class? I'm placing a bet on Rogue or Ranger, since they're apparently extremely dangerous, but I have a sweet spot for Fighter and Warlord.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 08:53 AM
I'm looking at going Fighter/Kensai ... that dance power just makes me wonder what other powers they have... :smallbiggrin:

But... I'll have to see what Living Forgotten Realms bans before I decide on my characters.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 08:53 AM
Hmm...Rachel, what would you say is the most powerful paragon path/s and powers? Apparently, there's basically no reason NOT to take Swordsmaster, unless everything else it has is made of fail. Especially if you can use Crescendo Sword's ability to refresh itself, which is more or less the equivalent of having it as an At Will. Unless other classes are even stronger or equal, every meleer is going to multiclass into fighter for Swordsmaster, because An extra daily is nothing to scoff at.

Well, no, ever Martialist /might/, but Swordmaster doesn't do all that much for your damage in general. It also relies on the use of Light or Heavy Blades. And no, Crescendo Sword can't refresh itself.

Swordmaster Features:

Swordmaster Path Features
Steel Defense Action (11th level): When you
spend an action point to take an extra action, you also
gain a +4 bonus to AC and Reflex defense until the
start of your next turn.
Steel Grace (11th level): When you charge with a
light blade or a heavy blade that is not a polearm, you
can use Containing Strike or Reaping Strike instead of
your melee basic attack.
Steel Blitz (16th level): When you score a critical
hit with a light blade or a heavy blade, you regain the
use of a fighter encounter power you’ve already used in
the encounter.

Swordmaster Encounter powers:

You slip your blade past your enemy’s armor and slice him just
so, leaving a bleeding gash.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action (Special) Melee weapon
Special: This power can be used as an opportunity attack.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Fantastic Flourish Swordmaster Utility 12
With perfect timing, you flick one enemy’s blood into the eyes of
another.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Minor Action Ranged 5
Requirement: You make a successful melee attack with a
light blade or heavy blade (not a polearm)
Target: One enemy other than the one you just hit
Effect: The target is marked until the end of your next turn.

I like 'em, but I think I like Iron Vanguard too.

Iron Vanguard class features:
Iron Vanguard Path Features
Enduring Warrior (11th level): When you drop
an enemy to 0 hit points or fewer, you regain hit points
equal to your Constitution modifier.
Ferocious Reaction (11th level): When you are
reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, as an immediate interrupt
before you fall unconscious, you can spend an
action point to take an extra action. In addition, whenever
you spend an action point to take an extra action,
you also gain a +4 bonus to all defenses until the start
of your next turn.
Trample the Fallen (16th level): When you push
a creature or knock a creature prone, it takes damage
equal to your Constitution modifier.

Iron Vanguard Encounter Exploits:

Frontline Surge Iron Vanguard Attack 11
You beat back your enemy, allowing you and your allies to seize
new ground.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square. You can shift into the square formerly
occupied by the target. If you do so, each ally within 2
squares of you can shift 1 square as well.
Inexorable Shift Iron Vanguard Utility 12
You throw yourself at your enemy and knock him back.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Effect: Shift into any adjacent square. If a creature occupies
the square into which you shift, you push that creature
1 square.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 09:00 AM
To anyone with MM: are there any actually Good(by which I mean alignment) stuff there?

Quick glance shows that there's the Celestial Charger, a lawful good warhorse. I imagine there are quite a few, but I frankly can't be bothered looking :P

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:02 AM
Is there a quick and dirty explanation on the alignments?

Jarlax
2008-05-28, 09:02 AM
So minion isn't a template...

Maybe it's just a creature type (like swarm) that you can't just slap on to anything you want. If so, most all of my issues with minions are now moot.

i don't know where you got this idea from. but minions are an Monster type (separated into minion, standard, elite and solo) which is different to creature types (undead, swarm, humanoid, etc.) or role (leader, striker, controller, etc)

a standard encounter is 4 standard monsters. but minions are worth 1/4 of a standard monster (and elites are worth double a standard monster) so an standard encounter of 4 minions, 1 standard and a elite is the same difficulty as just 4 standard monsters.

the title minion only applies in a encounter creation context and is inherent to the design of the monster. for example Dragons, Beholders and other D&D iconics are all Solo monsters, designed to be fought the old fashioned way, 4 PCs vs 1 Monster. meanwhile minions are designed with 1hp and 1/4 the damage of regular monsters, designed to appear in large numbers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 09:08 AM
Well, no, ever Martialist /might/, but Swordmaster doesn't do all that much for your damage in general. It also relies on the use of Light or Heavy Blades. And no, Crescendo Sword can't refresh itself.

Swordmaster Features:

Swordmaster Path Features
Steel Defense Action (11th level): When you
spend an action point to take an extra action, you also
gain a +4 bonus to AC and Reflex defense until the
start of your next turn.
Steel Grace (11th level): When you charge with a
light blade or a heavy blade that is not a polearm, you
can use Containing Strike or Reaping Strike instead of
your melee basic attack.
Steel Blitz (16th level): When you score a critical
hit with a light blade or a heavy blade, you regain the
use of a fighter encounter power you’ve already used in
the encounter.

Swordmaster Encounter powers:

You slip your blade past your enemy’s armor and slice him just
so, leaving a bleeding gash.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action (Special) Melee weapon
Special: This power can be used as an opportunity attack.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Fantastic Flourish Swordmaster Utility 12
With perfect timing, you flick one enemy’s blood into the eyes of
another.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Minor Action Ranged 5
Requirement: You make a successful melee attack with a
light blade or heavy blade (not a polearm)
Target: One enemy other than the one you just hit
Effect: The target is marked until the end of your next turn.

I like 'em, but I think I like Iron Vanguard too.

Iron Vanguard class features:
Iron Vanguard Path Features
Enduring Warrior (11th level): When you drop
an enemy to 0 hit points or fewer, you regain hit points
equal to your Constitution modifier.
Ferocious Reaction (11th level): When you are
reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, as an immediate interrupt
before you fall unconscious, you can spend an
action point to take an extra action. In addition, whenever
you spend an action point to take an extra action,
you also gain a +4 bonus to all defenses until the start
of your next turn.
Trample the Fallen (16th level): When you push
a creature or knock a creature prone, it takes damage
equal to your Constitution modifier.

Iron Vanguard Encounter Exploits:

Frontline Surge Iron Vanguard Attack 11
You beat back your enemy, allowing you and your allies to seize
new ground.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square. You can shift into the square formerly
occupied by the target. If you do so, each ally within 2
squares of you can shift 1 square as well.
Inexorable Shift Iron Vanguard Utility 12
You throw yourself at your enemy and knock him back.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Effect: Shift into any adjacent square. If a creature occupies
the square into which you shift, you push that creature
1 square.

God, it's WAY better than I thought.

Powers are your lifeblood. If you can keep recovering powers, you're going to break the game. I pray that enhanced threat ranges are really hard to get.


The Vanguard is nice, but compared to the swordsmaster, it falls squarely into "Meh". It's very much a warlord paragon path, not a Fighter's. Seriously, the top power lets you spend a healing surge. It's totally useless, since it's the Leader's Job to help you there.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 09:23 AM
...?

Swordmaster is restricted to swords, I haven't seen effects that enhance crits as a standard thing (Though there's a prayer that can do it in Divine Oracle).

And, well. Spending surges isn't just the Leader's job. If a tank can get self-recovery, that's a /good/ thing.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 09:29 AM
There's a Battle Mage power called Forceful Retort.

You diss your opponent so brutally that they fall backwards, go prone, and take force damage.

Dristin
2008-05-28, 09:30 AM
Yeah, it does seem very good. For comparison:

Iron Vanguard level 20 Daily, "Indomitable Strength":
Indomitable Strength - Iron Vanguard Attack 20
Daily - Healing, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square and it is knocked prone. In addition, the
target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: You can spend a healing surge.

Kensei level 20 Daily, "Weaponsoul Dance":
Weaponsoul Dance - Kensei Attack 20
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action. Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.
Effect: You can shift 5 squares, and then make a secondary
attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary
target
Secondary Attack: Strength + 2 vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.
Effect: You can shift 5 squares, and then make a tertiary
attack.
Tertiary Target: One creature other than the primary and
secondary targets
Tertiary Attack: Strength + 3 vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
knocked prone and immobilized until the end of your next
turn.

I may have missed this in a very early 4e thread but what does the Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage mean in the Iron Vanguard ability? It is not this one specfically but in general what does the #[W] + modifier mean in terms of gameplay?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:34 AM
W is the weapon damage, the number before it is the multiplier..

so 4[W] is four times the base weapon damage, plus your STR mod.

Vortling
2008-05-28, 09:54 AM
Does W include damage modifiers from magic weaponry? The powers are looking much better than I expected. I still don't intend to buy it until I've had a chance to play first though.

Duke of URL
2008-05-28, 10:12 AM
Repeating my questions from another thread:

* Total number of base classes? (8)
* Total number of "PHB Races"? (8?)
* Total number of playable MM races?
* Total number of paragon paths? (~30?)
* Total number of epic destinies?
* Total number of powers? (if possible, broken down by class/path/destiny/race)
* Total number of feats?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 10:13 AM
...?

Swordmaster is restricted to swords, I haven't seen effects that enhance crits as a standard thing (Though there's a prayer that can do it in Divine Oracle).

And, well. Spending surges isn't just the Leader's job. If a tank can get self-recovery, that's a /good/ thing.

:smallamused:

Except in Reach builds, did you ever see a competent fighter stray away from greatswords and longswords?

Yeah, me neither. And like you said in another thread, encounter powers are supposed to be cool things that you shouldn't be able to do all the time. Thus, getting more of them, and ESPECIALLY getting more dailies, is like getting extra standard actions in 3.5.

That said, the Kensai seems to be made of win. It's pretty meh against solos, but the ability to Focus fire on multiple enemies at the same time is excellent for the standard fights.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 10:17 AM
Repeating my questions from another thread:

* Total number of base classes? (8)
* Total number of "PHB Races"? (8?)
* Total number of playable MM races?
* Total number of paragon paths? (~30?)
* Total number of epic destinies?
* Total number of powers? (if possible, broken down by class/path/destiny/race)
* Total number of feats?

1) Eight.

2) Eight. Dragonborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Halfling, Half-Elf, Human, Tiefling.

3) Seems like 5-10.

4) 8*4-1, or, in other words, 31, four per class except for warlock who gets 3.

5) Four. Yeah, lackluster.

6) Enormous. No idea.

7) No idea.

Vortling
2008-05-28, 10:20 AM
6) Enormous. No idea.


Are we talking PHB number of spells enormous or Spell Compendium number of spell enormous :smallwink:

cybosage
2008-05-28, 10:21 AM
Does W include damage modifiers from magic weaponry? The powers are looking much better than I expected. I still don't intend to buy it until I've had a chance to play first though.

No it doesn't. Only the damage dice are rolled twice. To quote exactly from the book:

Weapon Damage Dice:
A [W] in a damage expression stands for your weapon’s damage dice.
(The weapon tables on pages 218–219 show damage
dice for all weapons.) The number before the [W] indicates
the number of times you roll your weapon dice.
If a power’s damage is “2[W] + Strength modifier”
and you use a dagger (1d4 damage), roll 2d4, then add
your Strength modifier. If you use a heavy flail (2d6
damage) with the same power, roll 4d6, then add your
Strength modifier.

Damage Types:
In addition to normal damage, such as the damage a weapon or a monster’s claws deal, powers and other effects can deal specific types
of damage. For example, a hell hound’s breath deals
fire damage, a scorpion’s sting deals poison damage,
a mind flayer’s telepathic blast deals psychic damage,
and a wraith’s touch deals necrotic damage.
When a power deals a specific type of damage, the
power description specifies the type before the word
“damage.” A fireball deals 3d6 + Intelligence modifier
fire damage, for example. All the damage it deals
is fire damage. If a power doesn’t specify a damage
type, the damage has no type.

Example:
Valenae. a 12th-level eladrin paladin,
hits a foe with thunder smite. The attack deals 2[W] +
Strength modifier thunder damage and knocks the
target prone. The damage would be 2d8 (longsword’s
1d8 × 2) + 7. The +7 bonus includes her +3 Strength
modifier, a +2 feat bonus (Weapon Focus), and a
+2 enhancement bonus (from her +2 thundering
longsword).

If she scores a critical hit, she deals maximum
damage of 23 points and adds 2d6 thunder damage
from her thundering longsword. If she wanted to use her
thundering longword’s encounter power on this hit, she
would add 10 thunder damage and push 1.


Does anyone else have anything specific they want to know?

Rutee
2008-05-28, 10:25 AM
:smallamused:

Except in Reach builds, did you ever see a competent fighter stray away from greatswords and longswords?

Chains of Sorrow Fighter Attack 13
You deliver a ferocious blow and catch your enemy’s armor,
shield, or claws with your weapon as you draw back for another
attack. Your recovery wrenches your enemy out of place.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes
a –2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a flail, the target’s takes a
penalty to all defenses equal to your Dexterity modifier.

You lay about with heavy, sweeping blows, hewing your enemies
left and right.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Make a secondary
attack.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to the
damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.
Secondary Target: Each enemy adjacent to the primary
target and within your melee reach
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to
the damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.

Anvil of Doom Fighter Attack 13
Your weapon makes a satisfying clunk as it connects with your
enemy’s skull.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
dazed until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a hammer or a mace, the target
is stunned rather than dazed.

Silverstep Fighter Attack 13
You trip your enemies, knocking them back. As they recover, you
shift to a more advantageous position.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you push
the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: You shift 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you can
shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier.

You duck and weave between your enemies while slashing at
them ferociously.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a heavy blade or a light blade,
you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: After the attack, you can shift 1 square and repeat
the attack against another target within reach. You can
then shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a third
target within reach. After the final attack, you can shift
1 square.

Like the deadly talon of a great raptor, your steel pierces your foe
and pins him in place.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
slowed until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a pick or a spear, the target also
cannot shift until the end of your next turn.

I haven't gotten to Feats, but the beginning of the Fighter chapter mentions that there are Feats that apparently grant powers, based on weapons, or something.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 10:26 AM
No it doesn't. Only the damage dice are rolled twice. To quote exactly from the book:

Weapon Damage Dice:
A [W] in a damage expression stands for your weapon’s damage dice.
(The weapon tables on pages 218–219 show damage
dice for all weapons.) The number before the [W] indicates
the number of times you roll your weapon dice.
If a power’s damage is “2[W] + Strength modifier”
and you use a dagger (1d4 damage), roll 2d4, then add
your Strength modifier. If you use a heavy flail (2d6
damage) with the same power, roll 4d6, then add your
Strength modifier.

Damage Types:
In addition to normal damage, such as the damage a weapon or a monster’s claws deal, powers and other effects can deal specific types
of damage. For example, a hell hound’s breath deals
fire damage, a scorpion’s sting deals poison damage,
a mind flayer’s telepathic blast deals psychic damage,
and a wraith’s touch deals necrotic damage.
When a power deals a specific type of damage, the
power description specifies the type before the word
“damage.” A fireball deals 3d6 + Intelligence modifier
fire damage, for example. All the damage it deals
is fire damage. If a power doesn’t specify a damage
type, the damage has no type.

Example:
Valenae. a 12th-level eladrin paladin,
hits a foe with thunder smite. The attack deals 2[W] +
Strength modifier thunder damage and knocks the
target prone. The damage would be 2d8 (longsword’s
1d8 × 2) + 7. The +7 bonus includes her +3 Strength
modifier, a +2 feat bonus (Weapon Focus), and a
+2 enhancement bonus (from her +2 thundering
longsword).

If she scores a critical hit, she deals maximum
damage of 23 points and adds 2d6 thunder damage
from her thundering longsword. If she wanted to use her
thundering longword’s encounter power on this hit, she
would add 10 thunder damage and push 1.


Does anyone else have anything specific they want to know?

Which seem, at first glance, to be the most powerful and weakest paragon paths? Are they more dependent on their dailies, or does their true power lie in their per-encounter or at will powers?

RTGoodman
2008-05-28, 10:27 AM
Unyielding Avalanche - Fighter Attack 15
Daily - Healing, Martial, Stance, Weapon
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration equal to your Constitution
modifier, a +1 power bonus to AC, and a +1 power bonus
to saving throws. Any enemy that starts its turn adjacent
to you takes 1[W] damage and is slowed until the end
of its turn, as long as you are able to make opportunity
attacks.

Is it just me, or does that seem both ridiculously powerful and totally awesome?


If anyone gets the chance, I'd really like to know more about the mechanical differences between Warlocks of each major type (Nature, Demonic or whatever, Stars and Voids, etc.).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 10:30 AM
Chains of Sorrow Fighter Attack 13
You deliver a ferocious blow and catch your enemy’s armor,
shield, or claws with your weapon as you draw back for another
attack. Your recovery wrenches your enemy out of place.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes
a –2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a flail, the target’s takes a
penalty to all defenses equal to your Dexterity modifier.

You lay about with heavy, sweeping blows, hewing your enemies
left and right.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Make a secondary
attack.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to the
damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.
Secondary Target: Each enemy adjacent to the primary
target and within your melee reach
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to
the damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.

Anvil of Doom Fighter Attack 13
Your weapon makes a satisfying clunk as it connects with your
enemy’s skull.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
dazed until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a hammer or a mace, the target
is stunned rather than dazed.

Silverstep Fighter Attack 13
You trip your enemies, knocking them back. As they recover, you
shift to a more advantageous position.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you push
the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: You shift 1 square.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a spear or a polearm, you can
shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier.

You duck and weave between your enemies while slashing at
them ferociously.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a heavy blade or a light blade,
you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Dexterity
modifier.
Effect: After the attack, you can shift 1 square and repeat
the attack against another target within reach. You can
then shift 1 square and repeat the attack against a third
target within reach. After the final attack, you can shift
1 square.

Like the deadly talon of a great raptor, your steel pierces your foe
and pins him in place.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
slowed until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a pick or a spear, the target also
cannot shift until the end of your next turn.

I haven't gotten to Feats, but the beginning of the Fighter chapter mentions that there are Feats that apparently grant powers, based on weapons, or something.

AHA! So they finally provided an incentive for using something other than longswords!

Though the axe confuses me...What the hell does CON have to do with doing more damage through an axe? :smallconfused:


And I ROFL'ed when I saw the anvil...of DOOM!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 10:31 AM
Is it just me, or does that seem both ridiculously powerful and totally awesome?

Yeah, but it's a daily. It's one of those powers you save until it you have to say, "Okay, we're screwed, and it's going to hurt."

cybosage
2008-05-28, 10:33 AM
If anyone gets the chance, I'd really like to know more about the mechanical differences between Warlocks of each major type (Nature, Demonic or whatever, Stars and Voids, etc.).

Eldritch Blast
All warlocks know the eldritch blast at-will power. This
power can be used as a basic attack. You gain this
power as well as another at-will power as determined
by your Eldritch Pact.

Eldritch Pact
You have forged a pact with mysterious entities that
grant you your arcane powers. Choose one of the following
pacts: fey pact, infernal pact, or star pact. The
pact you choose determines the following warlock
abilities:
At-Will Spells: Your pact determines one of the atwill
spells you know.
Pact Boon: Each pact includes a pact boon. The
pact boon is a granted power you can use to further
hex your enemies.
The pact you take also provides bonuses to certain
warlock powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if
any) your Eldritch Pact selection has on them.

Fey Pact
You have forged a bargain with ancient, amoral
powers of the Feywild. Some are primitive earth spirits,
grim and menacing; some are capricious wood, sky,
or water spirits; and others are incarnations of seasons
or natural forces who roam the faerie realm like wild
gods. They bestow magic that ranges from feral and
savage to wondrous and enchanting.

Eyebite: You know the eyebite at-will spell.
Misty Step: You have the Misty Step pact boon.
You instantly transform into silver mist that streams
a short distance and reforms, allowing you to flee or
maneuver to set up a deadly attack.

When an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is
reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you can immediately
teleport 3 squares as a free action.

Infernal Pact
Long ago a forgotten race of devils created a secret
path to power and taught it to the tieflings of old to
weaken their fealty to Asmodeus. In his wrath, Asmodeus
destroyed the scheming devils and struck their
very names from the memory of all beings—but you
dare to study their perilous secrets anyway.

Hellish Rebuke: You know the hellish rebuke at-will
spell.
Dark One’s Blessing: You have the Dark One’s
Blessing pact boon. You instantly gain vitality from a
cursed enemy when that enemy falls.

When an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is
reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you immediately gain
temporary hit points equal to your level.

Star Pact
You have mastered the astrologer’s art, learning the
secret names of the stars and gazing into the Far
Realm beyond, gaining great power thereby. You can
call upon powers that madden or terrify your enemies,
manipulate chance and fate, or scour your foes with
icy banes and curses drawn from beyond the night sky.

Dire Radiance: You know the dire radiance at-will
spell.
Fate of the Void: You have the Fate of the Void
pact boon. Your curse intermingles with the lost vitality
of a cursed enemy to reveal a glimpse of the future
to you.

When an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is
reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you gain a +1 bonus
to any single d20 roll you make during your next turn
(attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check). If
you don’t use this bonus by the end of your turn, it is lost.
This bonus is cumulative; if three cursed enemies
drop to 0 hit points or fewer before your next turn, you
gain a +3 bonus to a d20 roll during your turn.


That's about it.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 10:33 AM
Anyone got a text character sheet template, or an editable PDF already? I have no printer, and using Photoshop to edit in stats would be ridiculous.

I must optimize. *twitch*

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 11:04 AM
AHA! So they finally provided an incentive for using something other than longswords!

Though the axe confuses me...What the hell does CON have to do with doing more damage through an axe? :smallconfused:


And I ROFL'ed when I saw the anvil...of DOOM!

I am pleased with 4th Ed.'s desire to diversify fighters meaningfully, and give people a reason to use polearms, among other things.

Unfortunately, this very purpose is stymied when you give hammer/mace users a power called Anvil of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. Why would you want to wield anything else? :smallbiggrin:

I mean, you could use it with another weapon, but something tells me using an Anvil of DOOOOOOOOOOM with, say, an Axe, would be rather messy :smallwink:

Can someone post up some Feats here? I imagine they must be pretty de-powered since their role (character customization & increased awesomeness) is now taken by class powers, by and large.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 11:09 AM
Dual Wielding is interesting. It doesn't factor into basic attacks, I think, but it does factor into powers. Quite a few Ranger powers, f'rex, specify between the main and offhand weapons.

Ranger powers so far seem to do a little more damage then Fighters, but not much more. Somewhat worrying.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 11:13 AM
I still want some clarity on the alignments.

I also would like to know how many racial feats each race gets... and if they go up to the paragon/epic tier...

RMS Oceanic
2008-05-28, 11:18 AM
Alignments are:

Lawful Good
Good
Unaligned
Evil
Chaotic Evil

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 11:19 AM
I know that much... I want detail on what each level stands for in this edition... how big of an impact are they on character creation... etc

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 11:21 AM
Alignments are:

Lawful Good
Good
Unaligned
Evil
Chaotic Evil

Wait... what? They kept the Lawful/Chaotic ideas for 2 alignments but dropped their corresponding ones? I'm confused...

Llewelyn
2008-05-28, 11:23 AM
What does the PC Kobold entry look like?

And do the Rogues get any dual-wielding powers?

Rutee
2008-05-28, 11:24 AM
Wait... what? They kept the Lawful/Chaotic ideas for 2 alignments but dropped their corresponding ones? I'm confused...

Good is CG as 3e knows it, and Evil is LE as 3e knows it.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 11:25 AM
Wait... what? They kept the Lawful/Chaotic ideas for 2 alignments but dropped their corresponding ones? I'm confused...

Based on our current altruism = goodness ethics construct, chaotic evil and lawful good represent the two extremes. Lawful Good is the man so dedicated to "good" that he would sacrifice his life for it, Chaotic Evil is the man so obsessed with himself that he would break every law, hurt anyone in his path.

I do not know the mechanics yet.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 11:25 AM
Wait... what? They kept the Lawful/Chaotic ideas for 2 alignments but dropped their corresponding ones? I'm confused...

Yes. Two axes for alignment was too confusing for the poor players, so they're back to using only one, like they did in first edition.

I don't see why this should be a big deal; I have been ignoring the alignment rules for the past fifteen years, and have no intention of changing that.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 11:26 AM
Oh, right, Mechanics.

I've read Cleric and Paladin cover to cover, and Alignment wasn't mentioned once. I don't think they play a big role.

Morty
2008-05-28, 11:32 AM
I don't see why this should be a big deal; I have been ignoring the alignment rules for the past fifteen years, and have no intention of changing that.

Indeed, and as Rutee just informed us, it's going to be even easier in 4ed.
And while we're at alignments: are there any "darker" options for clerics and paladins? Or are they all "neutral" and up for player to flavor up depending on alignment?

Rutee
2008-05-28, 11:38 AM
Lemme see the description of Radiant Damage, because almost all Cleric damage is Radiant or Melee.

Ah hah. Radiant is described as either "Searing White Light" or "Shimmering Colors", so it's not really fitting for Evil. But there's been some Necrotic damage in Dailies and Encounters too. And I don't know if it makes a big difference to say it's Unholy Light yet.

Incidental note:
Blade Cascade Ranger Attack 15
Time seems to slow down as your weapons fall upon your hapless
foes like rain from an ominous sky.
Daily ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Targets: One or more creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC. Alternate main and off-hand weapon
attacks until you miss. As soon as an attack misses, this
attack ends.
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.
This is pretty spiffy, though I'm not sure what to think about the Ranger. They're damn mobile, and /do/ have secondary effects on their attacks, but don't actually deal more damage then Fighters. I think it was a bit more then Pallies though.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 11:42 AM
So the point buy is 10 10 10 10 10 8, with 22 points to spend. I know 17 is 3 points, 18 is 4 points... I think its 14, 15 and 16 that's 2 points, right?

Wow... Blade Cascade is -nice-. Keep making attacks until you miss. Go ahead. Have fun!

kc0bbq
2008-05-28, 11:42 AM
God, it's WAY better than I thought.

Powers are your lifeblood. If you can keep recovering powers, you're going to break the game. I pray that enhanced threat ranges are really hard to get.I love the level 30 Demigod epic destiny feature.

Divine Miracle (30th level): When you have
expended your last remaining encounter power, you
regain the use of one encounter power of your choice.
In this way, you never run out of encounter powers.

Oh, and it's an epic level feat to increase threat range of one weapon type by 1. It's cool, but not out of line with epic tier.

Favorite thing so far? The mechanics vorpal weapons.
Vorpal Weapon Level 30
There is nothing as sharp as the bite of a vorpal blade.
Lvl 30 +6 3,125,000 gp
Weapon: Axe, Heavy Blade
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d12 damage per plus
Property: Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage
die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional
result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another
maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.
Power (Daily): Free Action. Use this power when you hit
with the weapon. Deal an extra 3d12 damage with the
attack.

Duke of URL
2008-05-28, 12:17 PM
Though the axe confuses me...What the hell does CON have to do with doing more damage through an axe? :smallconfused:

It's 4e, it doesn't have to make sense if it's W00T! UBER LEET!!!

*ducks incoming fire*

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 12:19 PM
*uses ice, instead*

Matthew
2008-05-28, 12:21 PM
I have got to say, the art in these books is not to my taste. It's not all bad (page 191 is quite cool), but there's someting about the style that just feels... off.

Anyway, this is quite a rules overload; I think some people are going to be revelling in ecstacy, whilst others just get a headache (like me).

Trog
2008-05-28, 12:21 PM
So the point buy is 10 10 10 10 10 8, with 22 points to spend. I know 17 is 3 points, 18 is 4 points... I think its 14, 15 and 16 that's 2 points, right?
How does that work? :smallconfused: I mean I've done a point buy before once or twice but what are the guidelines in the new edition? Start with base stats and pay to upgrade them? Does anyone have the full set of point buy costs/base stats?

Rutee
2008-05-28, 12:24 PM
I have got to say, the art in these books is not to my taste. It's not all bad, but there's someting about the style that just feels... off.

I don't nkow about the style, but I'm irritated that humans are still Beefy McSteakMan.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 12:26 PM
Anyway, this quite a rules overload; I think some people are going to be revelling in ecstacy, whilst others just get a headache (like me).

Might I suggest willfully ignoring the majority of things and just looking at the ones you were specifically curious about before? It's how my head hasn't exploded yet.

Matthew
2008-05-28, 12:30 PM
Might I suggest willfully ignoring the majority of things and just looking at the ones you were specifically curious about before? It's how my head hasn't exploded yet.

Yeah, that's good advice. I read the intro to the Cleric and Paladin classes (no 'Holy Warrior', thankfully!) and am now skipping along to see what happened with swords and stuff. What's up with Sword Master and Kensei (Kensai)? That's the same damn thing. No love for a Spear Master? Oh well, maybe I ought to read the entries and see how they differ...

Ah right, looks like ken is not sword in D&D 4e language, but any weapon you like.

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 12:49 PM
I'm confused... have a bunch of people gotten their books delivered prematurely, or have Rutee and Rachel finally completed their dark rite and merged to become one (tiny) person?


Though the axe confuses me...What the hell does CON have to do with doing more damage through an axe? :smallconfused:

I immediately thought of Hurin... and if ever there was a guy whose CON was a factor in his melee, it's Hurin the Steadfast.


How does that work? :smallconfused: I mean I've done a point buy before once or twice but what are the guidelines in the new edition? Start with base stats and pay to upgrade them? Does anyone have the full set of point buy costs/base stats?

I think SamTheCleric is describing how it works in 3.5, if it is remaining the same for 4e. Look at your current score, look at the bonus it gives, and pay that bonus to bump it up to the next score, with every increase costing one at minimum. So, each increase between 8 and 14 costs 1. At 14, your bonus is +2, so you have to pay 2 to increase to 15. And so on...

Five tens and one eight is ten points pre-spent... plus 22 gives you a 32-point buy with the ability to bump two scores, depending on your race, after that (I'm assuming the racial bonuses apply afterwards, as they do now). That's not bad at all - you could buy two twenties, three tens, and only one eight with that.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 12:56 PM
SElf Correction: Rangers deal more damage. I totally and completely forgot about Hunter's Quarry, which adds extra damage every turn. Rogues are in a similar boat (Though they use Sneak Attack instead of Hunter's Quarry to add damage).

For those worried about Rogue's skill monkey place...

Fleeting Ghost Rogue Utility 2
You are stealthy and fleet of foot at the same time.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check.
You do not take the normal penalty from movement on
this check.

Great Leap Rogue Utility 2
You leap a great distance without a running start.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Athletics.
Effect: Make a high jump or a long jump. Determine the DC
of the Athletics check as though you had a running start.
The distance you jump can exceed your speed.

Master of Deceit Rogue Utility 2
The line between truth and deception is thin, and you cross it with
ease.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You roll a Bluff check and dislike the result
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Bluff.
Effect: Reroll the Bluff check. You decide whether to make
the reroll before the DM announces the result.

Quick Fingers Rogue Utility 2
You can pilfer a coin pouch in the blink of an eye.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Minor Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Thievery.
Effect: Make a Thievery check as part of this action, even if
the check is normally a standard action.

Chameleon Rogue Utility 6
You blend into your surroundings.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: You are hidden and lose cover or concealment
against an opponent
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: Make a Stealth check. Until the end of your next
turn, you remain hidden if a creature that has a clear line
of sight to you does not beat your check result with its Perception
check. If at the end of your turn you do not have
cover or concealment against a creature, that creature
automatically notices you.

Etc.

Matthew
2008-05-28, 12:59 PM
Huzzah! No more Tower Shields (or, indeed, Bucklers)! Armour section is pretty bland, as are the depictions, and there is no Damage Reduction, but not too bad overall.

Weapon section art looks even worse (if what you like, aesthetically speaking, is a nod towards realism) than what was presented for 3e, though the Warhammer has slimmed down a bit. Light Blades/Heavy Blades, just call them swords dammit! (and if you're going to differentiate between Pole Arms, Spears and Staves, feel free to differentiate between a Dagger and a Sword).

Also, watch out for ma boomerang scimitar!

RTGoodman
2008-05-28, 01:13 PM
I'm confused... have a bunch of people gotten their books delivered prematurely, or have Rutee and Rachel finally completed their dark rite and merged to become one (tiny) person?


Apparently a lot of people have gotten their books early. The one guy on ENWorld (unless that's secretly someone from here), Rutee, Rachel, Scintillatus, Matthew, cybosage (I guess - he posted some info), and maybe some others. Some of those may have gotten info from other sources, but I'm almost certain that at least 3 or so people have their stuff already.

And now I'll just jealously await mine...

(For all of you that may have received your shipment early, if you don't mind saying, where did you order from? Online sites? FLGSs?)

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 01:19 PM
Hmm...Rachel, what would you say is the most powerful paragon path/s and powers? Apparently, there's basically no reason NOT to take Swordsmaster, unless everything else it has is made of fail. Especially if you can use Crescendo Sword's ability to refresh itself, which is more or less the equivalent of having it as an At Will. Unless other classes are even stronger or equal, every meleer is going to multiclass into fighter for Swordsmaster, because An extra daily is nothing to scoff at.
I'd say the most powerful Paragon Path is probably the cleric's Divine Oracle. At level 16 they get the ability to roll two dice and take the better for any attack they make vs. Will, although if they still miss they're dazed for a round.

Swordmaster is very good, but it's *not* always going to be the obvious choice even for STR-high melee characters.


Also, which, d'you think, is the most powerful base class? I'm placing a bet on Rogue or Ranger, since they're apparently extremely dangerous, but I have a sweet spot for Fighter and Warlord.
Rogue and Ranger are very dangerous, but have their own drawbacks.

I don't think there is a most powerful class or set of most powerful classes, not like in 3.5. They're all good at what they do.



I want to see some of the fighter weapon-specific powers. Like, what's the difference between a sword and board fighter, an axe-wielding berserker, or a spearman.
You've already seen Silverstep, a fighter spear power. There was also a power that let you cover someone else better if you had a shield.

There's also simpler stuff, like "Hack and Slash":
Hack ’n’ Slash - Fighter Attack 23
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding an axe, you gain a bonus to the
damage roll equal to your Constitution modifier.

Or "Chains of Sorrow", a solid Flail power:
Chains of Sorrow - Fighter Attack 13
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes
a –2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a flail, the target’s takes a
penalty to all defenses equal to your Dexterity modifier.

---


Which seem, at first glance, to be the most powerful and weakest paragon paths? Are they more dependent on their dailies, or does their true power lie in their per-encounter or at will powers?

Divine Oracle is up there. Swordsmaster *might* be up there. Justiciar for the Paladin looks strong, but so does Champion of Order. Spellstorm Mage for the wizard. I
Overall, most of them look pretty solid.

The Battle Mage for the wizard struck me as weaker than the rest.

---


I'm looking at going Fighter/Kensai ... that dance power just makes me wonder what other powers they have... :smallbiggrin:

But... I'll have to see what Living Forgotten Realms bans before I decide on my characters.

Masterstroke - Kensei Attack 11
Encounter - Martial,Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.

Ultimate Parry - Kensei Utility 12
Daily - Martial
Immediate Reaction, Personal
Trigger: You take damage from an attack
Effect: Reduce the damage by an amount equal to your
level.
The class abilities are +1 AB, +4 damage, and the ability to reroll stuff with action points instead of gaining extra actions.

---



Can someone post up some Feats here? I imagine they must be pretty de-powered since their role (character customization & increased awesomeness) is now taken by class powers, by and large.
Feats have a much less wildly varying power level, yeah. A good chunk (especially at the Heroic tier) are lackluster. Small bonuses are relevant and do add up, though.


Feats, Heroic tier:

Action Surge [Human]
Prerequisite: Human
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus to attack rolls you make during any action you gained by spending an action point.

Combat Reflexes
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to opportunity attack rolls.

Dragonborn Frenzy [Dragonborn]
Prerequisite: Dragonborn
Benefit: While you are bloodied, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls.

Expanded Spellbook [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, wizard
Benefit: Choose one daily wizard attack spell of every level you know. Add this spell to your spellbook.
Each time you gain a new level of daily wizard attack spells, you learn one extra spell of that level (in other words, add three spells to your spellbook instead of only two).
This feat doesn’t change the number of daily attack spells you can prepare each day.

Inspired Recovery [Warlord]
Prerequisites: Warlord, Inspiring Presence class
feature
Benefit: When an ally who can see you spends an action point to gain an extra standard action, that ally can roll a saving throw as a free action, adding your Charisma modifier to the roll.

Power Attack
Prerequisite: Str 15
Benefit: When making a melee attack, you can take a –2 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you gain a +2 bonus to the damage roll (or a +3 bonus to the damage roll with a two-handed weapon).
This extra damage increases by level, as shown on the table below, but the attack penalty remains the same.
Level - Extra Damage (Two-Handed Weapon)
1st–10th - +2 (+3)
11th–20th - +4 (+6)
21st–30th - +6 (+9)

Surprise Knockdown [Rogue]
Prerequisites: Str 15, rogue
Benefit: If you score a critical hit while you have combat advantage, you knock the target prone.


Paragon tier feats:

Evasion
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: When an area or close attack targeting your AC or Reflex defense misses you but deals damage on a miss, you take no damage from the attack.

Action Recovery [Human]
Prerequisite: Human
Benefit: When you spend an action point to gain an extra standard action, you can immediately roll a saving throw against each condition affecting you that a save can end.

Arcane Reach
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: When using a close arcane attack power, you can choose a square within 2 squares of yours as the origin square. The power still follows the rules for close attacks.

Heavy Blade Opportunity
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dex 15
Benefit: When you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you can use an at-will attack that has the weapon keyword instead of a basic attack.

Second Implement [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Wizard, Arcane Implement Mastery class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Arcane Implement Mastery class feature.


Epic feats:

Arcane Mastery [Wizard]
Prerequisite: Wizard
Benefit: Once per encounter, you can spend an action point to regain the use of a daily wizard power you’ve already used today, instead of taking an extra action.

Irresistible Flame
Benefit: Treat your target’s resist fire as 20 fewer than normal when determining damage for your attacks.

Triumphant Attack
Benefit: If you score a critical hit with a melee attack, the target of your attack takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls and defenses for the rest of the encounter (save ends).

---


What does the PC Kobold entry look like?

And do the Rogues get any dual-wielding powers?
PC kobolds get +2 DEX/+2 CON and can shift 1 square as a minor action.

I'm afraid Rogues don't get much in the way of TWF. Rangers get their choice of TWF and archery. Not so good for rogues, though, as Ranger TWF powers are STR-based and Rogues want DEX-based powers.

---

Also, at level 22, Rogues get to double jump. There's no way in which this isn't awesome.

Cloud Jump - Rogue Utility 22
Encounter - Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Athletics.
Effect: Make two consecutive Athletics checks to jump, with a +5 power bonus to each. You don’t have to land between the jumps and can exceed your normal movement.

Krrth
2008-05-28, 01:26 PM
Apparently a lot of people have gotten their books
(For all of you that may have received your shipment early, if you don't mind saying, where did you order from? Online sites? FLGSs?)
I didn't order from them, but Buy.com was mentioned as sending books out early.

Matthew
2008-05-28, 01:41 PM
Okay, most of the art I don't like, but the cleric(?) woman on page 258 of the PHB? Nice... reminds me of beng back in school and everyone crowding round to look at the 'racy' (cheesecake) pictures in my 2e books. Looking at them now, they don't seem that racy anymore, but then we were twelve or something...

It's not racy, by the by, it's just quite good. Lee Moy appears to be the artist... I'll see if I can find it on the intermanet...

http://www.leemoyer.com/games/img/lg3.jpg

Wow, surprisingly a lot of his other art is precisely the stuff that I think sucks (that third image especially)... oh well.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 01:55 PM
Okay, most of the art I don't like, but the cleric(?) woman on page 258 of the PHB? Nice... reminds me of beng back in school and everyone crowding round to look at the 'racy' (cheesecake) pictures in my 2e books. Looking at them now, they don't seem that racy anymore, but then we were twelve or something...

I don't like the Dragonborn art, for the most part (WoW shoulderpads, bleh), but I do like quite a lot of it.

The Eladrin look like they should. There's something very appealing about the female example half-elf.

There's a lot of women in ridiculous belly-shirt armor, cleavage-exposing armor, &etc, but on the other hand, we have things like the female dwarven cleric on p.70. I think I'm in love. Also the AWESOME tiefling rogue on p.189 and the dwarven wizardess on p.165.

4E has the best female dwarves ever, just in general. And a lot of the rest of the art isn't half bad.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 02:01 PM
Art? Who needs art! Give us that tasty tasty crunch. :smallbiggrin:

Could you explain the pointbuy? I read it last night and forgot the exact mechanics of it.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 02:23 PM
Art? Who needs art! Give us that tasty tasty crunch. :smallbiggrin:

Could you explain the pointbuy? I read it last night and forgot the exact mechanics of it.

The default pointbuy starts with "8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10" and gives you 22 points. Bumping the 8 up to a 9 or 10 costs 1 or 2 points.

From 10:
11 - 1 pt
12 - 2 pts
13 - 3 pts
14 - 5 pts
15 - 7 pts
16 - 9 pts
17 - 12 pts
18 - 16 pts.


The "standard array" is 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, which adds up to the above 22 points. I'd probably keep the 8 and bump the 13 up to another 14 for most characters.

Matthew
2008-05-28, 02:23 PM
The Eladrin look like they should. There's something very appealing about the female example half-elf.

That's true, but the Elf male has a weird looking nose. There is somrthing very familiar looking about that Half Elf woman. They look at bit like they're posing for a band photo...



There's a lot of women in ridiculous belly-shirt armor, cleavage-exposing armor, &etc,

Haven't noticed that much, I will keep an eye out.



but on the other hand, we have things like the female dwarven cleric on p.70. I think I'm in love. Also the AWESOME tiefling rogue on p.189 and the dwarven wizardess on p.165.
4E has the best female dwarves ever, just in general. And a lot of the rest of the art isn't half bad.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I don't recall seeing a lot of female Dwarf depictions before 4e, but the one I do recall from the 3e PHB was pretty poor.



Art? Who needs art! Give us that tasty tasty crunch. :smallbiggrin:

Could you explain the pointbuy? I read it last night and forgot the exact mechanics of it.

Alright... well I was disappointed to see virtually no powers that seem to rely on shields in the Fighter section. Armour is now divided into two categories, heavy and light (another of my ideas stolen! :smallbiggrin:) and Warlords get a limited armour selection: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail, light shield.

A lot of the Light/Heavy weapon distinctions are gone, with Mace being a straight weapon. Morning Stars are back to being two handed (AD&D 1e) and the 'Maul' is in the PHB.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 02:34 PM
Alright... well I was disappointed to see virtually no powers that seem to rely on shields in the Fighter section.
Really? I noticed a decent number of them. Not as many as the weapon reliant ones, of course, but a decent number.


Haven't noticed that much, I will keep an eye out.
Don't bother. IT's not a change over RPG Artwork as it is now. (Where's that poster? The one that points out that RPG Artwork is pretty odd porn?)

Looking over the powers of the Strikers, I'm going to have to go ahead and refute what Azerian said earlier. The tanks are /definitely/ supposed to handle some measure of their own healing. The most notable difference in durability between the Strikers and the Tanks, that I can see, is that Tanks have many more abilities to grant themselves healing surges (And more reactions that buff defense). Yes, everyone can use a Second Wind, but it is good to be able to burn your Healing Surges more then once.

Xsjado
2008-05-28, 02:38 PM
Considering that there is a very good copy of the rulebooks on bittorrent I don't think everybody who is talking rules necessarily has the books. Looking at the rules for myself they seem pretty solid altough it will take some getting used to. I keep getting confused by some of the abiltiy descriptions, but thats a minor complaint and is really just down to it being a new system.

Can't wait to get my hardcopies :smallsmile:

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 02:42 PM
I wonder if I'd get in trouble if I made a snarky comment about Religion being an Intelligence-based skill. :smallamused:

Ether
2008-05-28, 02:45 PM
My guess would be:

Striker - Assassin
Controller - Shadowcaster
Defender - Hexblade
Leader - Necromancer

In this instance the Necromancer might have undead minions that he uses powers on to move around and attack with rather than using powers on other players to make them move around and attack.

The Hexblade's "Curse" could work as a mark, with his powers mainly revolving around doing nasty shadow-defendery things to the person he's Marked/Cursed.

You're forgetting Illusionist, which I'm thinking would be a controller.

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 02:46 PM
Don't bother. IT's not a change over RPG Artwork as it is now. (Where's that poster? The one that points out that RPG Artwork is pretty odd porn?)

...Shazam! (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/rpgartwork.html)

Matthew
2008-05-28, 03:03 PM
...Shazam! (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/rpgartwork.html)

Phfff... course it is.

http://rizak.info/DEMOTIVATION/ale_whores2.jpg

...but only Spelljammer is proper Nerd Porn anyway.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 03:04 PM
Exactly. In fact, keep the ale.

Raider
2008-05-28, 03:07 PM
I wonder if I'd get in trouble if I made a snarky comment about Religion being an Intelligence-based skill. :smallamused:
I really do hope you would, but mechanically it makes sense because without the proper education the regular peasent wouldn't know much about their religion. Maybe have bonuses do to long time membership though.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 03:52 PM
The default pointbuy starts with "8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10" and gives you 22 points. Bumping the 8 up to a 9 or 10 costs 1 or 2 points.

From 10:
11 - 1 pt
12 - 2 pts
13 - 3 pts
14 - 5 pts
15 - 7 pts
16 - 9 pts
17 - 12 pts
18 - 16 pts.


The "standard array" is 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, which adds up to the above 22 points. I'd probably keep the 8 and bump the 13 up to another 14 for most characters.

Personally, I think it's much better to lower that 11 and the 13 and use the points to nab a second high stat of 15. Given that Heavy Blade opportunity seems like a REALLY nifty power for those times when you can AoO something, I wouldn't like to miss it, and having, say, 16-15 in STR and DEX gets you both PA and Evasion, two excellent abilities.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 04:01 PM
Looking over the powers of the Strikers, I'm going to have to go ahead and refute what Azerian said earlier. The tanks are /definitely/ supposed to handle some measure of their own healing. The most notable difference in durability between the Strikers and the Tanks, that I can see, is that Tanks have many more abilities to grant themselves healing surges (And more reactions that buff defense). Yes, everyone can use a Second Wind, but it is good to be able to burn your Healing Surges more then once.


Precisely. If you ALREADY have other powers to do the job of burning a healing surge for you, getting a power that does just that, but is a daily (Which are supposed to be the crème de la crème. Look at the Crescendo sword or the Kensai's multitarget power, which makes you The Great Communicator if you have chains.) and the capstone of anything pre-epic, it seems like a ripoff. Why do you want a rehash of the same ability but much more costly? Much better to get something like the multiattack or the Crescendo.

Glawackus
2008-05-28, 04:07 PM
Question: what's the DMG like? (I'm looking for something like the table of contents with a brief description of What's In This Chapter.)

Matthew
2008-05-28, 04:17 PM
It looks a bit like this:


1: How to Be a DM . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
The Gaming Group. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
The Players. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
The Dungeon Master. . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Table Rules. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
2: Running the Game. . . . . . . . . 16
Preparing. . . . . . . . . . 18
Getting Started. . . . . . . . . . 19
Chronicling a Game. . . . . . . . . . . . . 19
Modes of the Game. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20
Narration. . . . . . . . . . . 22
Pacing. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
Props . . . . . . . . . . 25
Dispensing Information. . . . . . . . . . . 26
Passive Skill Checks. . . . . . . . . . . 26
Informing Players. . . . . . . . . . . . . 26
Rituals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27
Improvising. . . . . . . . . . . 28
Ending . . . . . . . . . . . 29
Troubleshooting. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
Teaching the Game. . . . . . . . . . . 33
3: Combat Encounters. . . . . 34
Combat Fundamentals . . . . . . . . . . . . 36
Monster Readiness. . . . . . . . . . . 36
Surprise. . . . . . . . . . . 36
Roll Initiative!. . . . . . . . . . . 38
Running Combat. . . 40
When Is an Encounter Over?. . . . . 41
After an Encounter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
Additional Rules . . . . . . . . . . . 42
Actions the Rules Don’t Cover . . . 42
Cover. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43
Forced Movement and Terrain. . . 44
Aquatic Combat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
Mounted Combat. . . . . . . . . . . . . 46
Flying. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
Disease . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49
Poison . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50
4: Building Encounters. . . . . 52
Monster Roles . . . . . . . . . . . 54
Encounter Components . . . . . . . . . . . 56
Encounter Level. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56
Target XP Reward. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57
Encounter Templates. . . . . . . . . . . 58
Battlefield Control. . . . . . . . . . 58
Commander and Troops. . . . . . . . 58
Dragon’s Den. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58
Double Line. . . . . . . . . . . 58
Wolf Pack. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59
Encounter Settings. . . . . . . . . . 60
Terrain Features . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
Terrain and Roles . . . . . . . . . . . 62
Sample Mundane Terrain. . . . . . . . 64
Outdoor Terrain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 66
Light Sources. . . . . . . . . . 66
Vision and Special Senses. . . . . . . . 67
Sample Fantastic Terrain . . . . . . . . 67
5: Noncombat Encounters.70
Skill Challenges. . . . 72
Running a Skill Challenge. . . . . . . 74
Opposed Checks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74
Interrupting a Skill Challenge. . . . 75
Sample Skill Challenges . . . . . . . . 76
Puzzles. . . . . . . . . . 81
Using Puzzles. . . . . . . . . . . 81
Designing Puzzles. . . . . . . . . . . 82
Traps and Hazards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 85
Using Traps and Hazards. . . . . . . . . 87
Sample Traps and Hazards. . . . . . . 87
6: Adventures. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94
Published Adventures. . . . . . . . . . . . . 96
Fixing Problems. . . . . . . . . . 98
Building an Adventure. . . . . . . . . . . 100
Quests. . . . . . . . . . . 102
Encounter Mix. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104
Adventure Setting. . . . . . . . . . . . . 106
Setting Personality. . . . . . . . . . . . 108
Setting Details. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 110
Furnishings and Features. . . . . . 111
Mapping the Site. . . . . . . . . . 112
Outdoor Settings . . . . . . . . . . 114
Event-Based Adventures. . . . . . . . 115
Cast of Characters . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 116
Allies as Extra Characters. . . . . . . 116
7: Rewards. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 118
Experience Points. . . . . . . . . . . . . 120
Quests. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 122
Milestones. . . . . . . . . . 123
Treasure. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 124
Monetary Treasure. . . . . . . . . . . . 124
Gems. . . . . . . . . . . 124
Art Objects. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 124
Magic Items . . . . . . . . . . 125
Awarding Treasure. . . . . . . . . . . 125
Treasure Parcels . . . . . . . . . . . . 126
8: Campaigns. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 130
Published Campaigns . . . . . . . . . . . 132
Campaign Theme. . . . . . . . . . 134
Super Adventures. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 138
Campaign Story. . . . . . . . . . . 140
Beginning a Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . 142
Starting at Higher Level. . . . . . . . 143
Running a Campaign. . . 144
Tiers of Play . . . . . . . . . . . . 146
Ending a Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 147
9: Th e World. . . 148
The D&D World. . . . . . . . . . . 150
Civilization. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 152
Mapping a Settlement. . . . . . . . 154
Teleportation Circles. . . . . . . . . . 156
The Wild. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 158
Weather . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 158
Environmental Dangers . . . . . . . 158
Starvation, Thirst,
and Suffocation. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 159
The Planes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 160
The Gods. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 162
Artifacts. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 164
The Axe of the
Dwarvish Lords. . . . . . . . . . . 165
The Eye of Vecna. . . 167
The Hand of Vecna. . . . . . . . . . . 168
The Invulnerable
Coat of Arnd . . . . . . . . . . . 170
Languages. . . . . . . . . . . 171
10: Th e DM ’s Toolbox. . . . . . . 172
Customizing Monsters. . . . . . . . . . 174
Increasing or
Decreasing Level. . . . . . . . . . . . . 174
Adding Equipment. . . . . . . . . . . 174
Templates. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 175
Functional Templates. . . . . . . . . . . 176
Class Templates. . . . . . . . . . 182
Creating Monsters . . . . . . . . . . . 184
Monster Design Steps. . . . . . . . 184
Elite and Solo Monsters. . . . . . . 184
Creating NPCs. . . . . . . . . . 186
NPC Design Steps. . . . . . . . . . . 187
Level Bonus and
Magic Threshold. . . . . . . . . . . 187
Creating House Rules. . . . . . . . . . . 189
Rules Design 101. . . . . . . . . . . 189
Example House Rules . . . . . . . . . 189
Fumble . . . . . . . . . . . 189
Critical Success and Failure.. 189
Random Dungeons. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 190
Random Encounters. . . . . . . . . . . 193
11: Fallcrest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 196
The Town of Fallcrest. . . . 198
The Nentir Vale. . . . 206
Involving the Players . . . . . . . . . . . . 209
Kobold Hall. . . . . . . . . . 210
Combat Cards . . . . . . . . . . . 220
Index. . . . . . . . . . . 221
Battle Grids. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 222

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 04:24 PM
Question: what's the DMG like? (I'm looking for something like the table of contents with a brief description of What's In This Chapter.)

Having read Rachel's books now that she's not curled up around them and hissing at anyone who approaches (and given that she can break my arm in like five different ways, I wasn't gonna make a grab for'em), I can answer this.

"For noobs" is the short answer. Experienced DMs can almost skip it. It doesn't have too much by way of rules. (It does have XP-related stuff, traps, and the like.)
Most of it is guidelines and suggestions for DMing. It could be very useful to new DMs.

Glawackus
2008-05-28, 04:24 PM
Thanks, Matthew. That actually looks kind of useful. That sound you hear is my wallet screaming in pain. I really wanted to get GTA4 and/or Guitar Hero, but it looks like that's not going to happen if I'm buying the 4E books, too. :smallsigh:

Rutee
2008-05-28, 04:24 PM
Precisely. If you ALREADY have other powers to do the job of burning a healing surge for you, getting a power that does just that, but is a daily (Which are supposed to be the crème de la crème. Look at the Crescendo sword or the Kensai's multitarget power, which makes you The Great Communicator if you have chains.) and the capstone of anything pre-epic, it seems like a ripoff. Why do you want a rehash of the same ability but much more costly? Much better to get something like the multiattack or the Crescendo.

Because I want to be a better tank? Considering how brazenly you said "It's the Leader's job to heal people"... :P

Matthew
2008-05-28, 04:26 PM
You know, Regdar is getting killed a lot in these books... (well twice so far, but still...)

Looks like Ogre Magi have become Oni Magi... weird sort of choice to mix languages up like that. Onimusha confused the hell out of me with it's 'Ogre Clan' stuff, but still...

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 04:29 PM
You know, Regdar is getting killed a lot in these books... (well twice so far, but still...)

*ahem* "...once per day, when you die..." :3

Trog
2008-05-28, 04:30 PM
Oooo! I'd like to find out more about Encounter templates in the DMG if anyone would be so kind. :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 04:37 PM
Because I want to be a better tank? Considering how brazenly you said "It's the Leader's job to heal people"... :P

In D&D, Attack is the best defense. Healing yourself is NOT being, the better tank. One shotting the monster that was going to hit your pals IS being the better tank.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 04:41 PM
I'm probably going to get in trouble for the comparison, but when I tanked as a Pally in WoW, healing myself MAJORLY helped. Aside from the threat generation, it saved the Priest some major trouble. Seal of Light for the win, and whatnot.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 04:42 PM
In D&D, Attack is the best defense. Healing yourself is NOT being, the better tank. One shotting the monster that was going to hit your pals IS being the better tank.

Az, please, get 4E and read the books before you start going about about stuff like this.

In 4E, you do not one-shot monsters. Offense is not always the best defense--a good defense is important.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 04:44 PM
In D&D, Attack is the best defense. Healing yourself is NOT being, the better tank. One shotting the monster that was going to hit your pals IS being the better tank.

Uh, no.

Deal 10-15% of the Elite or Solo's HP and heal 30% of my own, or deal 20% of the Elite or Solo's HP. Dealing more damage is certainly useful, but when you're the tank? Come off it.

Plus, yes. This is not 3e. You can not feasibly drop a mob in one hit, unless it's a minion. Your defenses are important.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 04:47 PM
Az, please, get 4E and read the books before you start going about about stuff like this.

In 4E, you do not one-shot monsters. Offense is not always the best defense--a good defense is important.

Really? If I slow and retreat, stun, put to sleep, or kill a monster, I've put it twenty gigantic steps closer to defeat, if not having achieved victory outright. True, you're going to have to play it safe, slow 'n steady for enemies like the Tarrasque and others who are simply too powerful, but for the vast majority of the encounters, going nova is going to save you a lot of trouble. Y'know the phrase, attack wins matches but defense wins championships. Basically, you want to go postal on normal enemies and play it safe on Elites and Solos.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 04:50 PM
Remember that debuffs are, for the most part, just that. you're /worse/. You don't /suck/.

Notwithstanding taht a Debuff is effectively a form of defense if it keeps enemies from dealing damage. They're only offensive when they increase the damage dealt to the mob.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 04:51 PM
Remember that debuffs are, for the most part, just that. you're /worse/. You don't /suck/.

Notwithstanding taht a Debuff is effectively a form of defense if it keeps enemies from dealing damage. They're only offensive when they increase the damage dealt to the mob.

N.

I.

T.

P.

I.

C.

K.

I.

N.

G.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 04:56 PM
Really? If I slow and retreat, stun, put to sleep, or kill a monster, I've put it twenty gigantic steps closer to defeat, if not having achieved victory outright. True, you're going to have to play it safe, slow 'n steady for enemies like the Tarrasque and others who are simply too powerful, but for the vast majority of the encounters, going nova is going to save you a lot of trouble. Y'know the phrase, attack wins matches but defense wins championships. Basically, you want to go postal on normal enemies and play it safe on Elites and Solos.
Really. Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. I mean that not in an insulting way but in a "you have not read the rule system you are talking about like you're an expert on it" way. You are fundamentally uninformed as to the mechanics of the game, because you haven't seen them.

If you consistently slow and retreat, stun, or put to sleep a monster, you're probably not a Defender. Even if you are, that's for basically one round. And it gets an AoO as you retreat, unless you stunned it. And that's not even necessarily an option.

Offense is not the Omgwin it was in 3E. Trust the people who've seen the rules.
Paladins and Fighters have powers and class features that keep enemies on them. Without defensive abilities--and self-healing does help--they'll get beaten down by those enemies. Spend a healing surge as a minor action? That's helpful stuff.

The cleric/warlord is not your healbot. He has other people to heal, too (the Rogue needs it more than you do, a lot of the time). He has attacks to make, buffs/debuffs to use.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 05:02 PM
Oooo! I'd like to find out more about Encounter templates in the DMG if anyone would be so kind. :smallbiggrin:

They're well, templates for a different kind of encounter each, with easy (n-2, where n is the level of the encounter/party (assuming 5 members in the party)), medium (n), and hard (n+2 to n+4) difficulty .
The templates are:
Battlefield Control (controller + skirmishers)
Commander and Troops (controller/soldier + brutes/soldiers/artillery)
Dragon's Den (solo/elite)
Double Line (brutes/soldiers + artillery/controllers)
Wolf Pack (skirmishers only)

Battlefield Control template:
Easy: Controller of level n – 2
6 skirmishers of level n – 4
Standard: Controller of level n + 1
6 skirmishers of level n – 2
Hard: Controller of level n + 5
5 skirmishers of level n + 1
Easy Example for 5th-level PCs: 1 goblin hexer
(level 3 controller) and 6 goblin warriors

They're pretty neat. I've been looking over the PHB primarily, but I've got all 3 open right now and will be glad to answer questions.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:04 PM
Really. Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. I mean that not in an insulting way but in a "you have not read the rule system you are talking about like you're an expert on it" way. You are fundamentally uninformed as to the mechanics of the game, because you haven't seen them.

If you consistently slow and retreat, stun, or put to sleep a monster, you're probably not a Defender. Even if you are, that's for basically one round. And it gets an AoO as you retreat, unless you stunned it. And that's not even necessarily an option.

Offense is not the Omgwin it was in 3E. Trust the people who've seen the rules.
Paladins and Fighters have powers and class features that keep enemies on them. Without defensive abilities--and self-healing does help--they'll get beaten down by those enemies. Spend a healing surge as a minor action? That's helpful stuff.

The cleric/warlord is not your healbot. He has other people to heal, too (the Rogue needs it more than you do, a lot of the time). He has attacks to make, buffs/debuffs to use.

C'mon.

You're seriously going to say the classic strategy, "Attack wins games, but defense wins championships" doesn't work in 4th?

You're going to say one of the oldest and most effective strategies, which even has a lot of common sense in it to boot, is not going to work, when it has, in pretty much every game that has more than one side competing?

Yeah. Forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.

Not to mention, if you're a defender, it's your job to get shredded and ground into fine bloody mist so that no one else takes a single hit if possible. The Leader ought to be focusing on you, because the striker is getting in and out free, and the Controller is far away. If you let others be hit, you're doing it wrong, and must avoid the situation by any means possible. And it just happens that killing the thing is the BEST mean possible.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:09 PM
C'mon.

You're seriously going to say the classic strategy, "Attack wins games, but defense wins championships" doesn't work in 4th?
Yes. You need a balance of both at all times.


You're going to say one of the oldest and most effective strategies, which even has a lot of common sense in it to boot, is not going to work, when it has, in pretty much every game that has more than one side competing?

Yeah. Forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.
That's nice, Az. I'll be over here, with the PHB and MM, looking at the numbers which say you're wrong. Adding a little extra offense (which you've already got) is NOT clearly better than adding some defense, against normal monsters or not. Against minions, you hit them if you kill them anyway. Against normal monsters, you need to keep your defense and HP up so that you don't lose too much HP before moving on to the next guys; you can only kill them so much faster with more offensive powers.

It's all about the numbers. Which you haven't actually seen, so I don't know why you think you're an authority on the subject.


Not to mention, if you're a defender, it's your job to get shredded and ground into fine bloody pulp so that no one else takes a single hit if possible. The Leader ought to be focusing on you, because the striker is getting in and out free, and the Controller is far away. If you let others be hit, you're doing it wrong, and must avoid the situation by any means possible. And it just happens that killing the thing is the BEST mean possible.
The leader needs to focus on everyone. You are NOT the sole recipient of healing. The defender can only engage so many enemies at the time. People will attack the striker. It's going to happen. Same for the Controller. I've already played the game; I know what I'm talking about.

But I guess you can go on believing that your unfounded opinion, not based in play experience on the rules, trumps that of people who've experimented with this stuff during play.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:14 PM
Yes. You need a balance of both at all times.


That's nice, Az. I'll be over here, with the PHB and MM, looking at the numbers which say you're wrong. Adding a little extra offense (which you've already got) is NOT clearly better than adding some defense, against normal monsters or not. Against minions, you hit them if you kill them anyway. Against normal monsters, you need to keep your defense and HP up so that you don't lose too much HP before moving on to the next guys; you can only kill them so much faster with more offensive powers.

It's all about the numbers. Which you haven't actually seen, so I don't know why you think you're an authority on the subject.


The leader needs to focus on everyone. You are NOT the sole recipient of healing. The defender can only engage so many enemies at the time. People will attack the striker. It's going to happen. Same for the Controller. I've already played the game; I know what I'm talking about.

But I guess you can go on believing that your unfounded opinion, not based in play experience on the rules, trumps that of people who've experimented with this stuff during play.

:smallamused:

So says the guy who apparently is ignoring the basic rules of tactics and the order of priorities.

Really, the bottom line is this: Crush the small fry (Standard and Minions) quick, and play it safe, slow, and steady with Elites and Solos.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 05:18 PM
To go back to a different topic..


Looks like Ogre Magi have become Oni Magi... weird sort of choice to mix languages up like that. Onimusha confused the hell out of me with it's 'Ogre Clan' stuff, but still...
I kinda hope they keep doing this kinda thing, really. Well maybe not that specifically, but I'm getting a LITTLE TIRED of "Asians are just like white people, but shorter and more magical" (See: Ninja, Samurai. I'll take Monk since it is in fact divinely inspired, just for a different value of divine). If they keep mixing 'East' (Because really, it's just Japan so far) with West at random places (Like the Kensei, even if that's a misnomer), we're less likely to feel that we need to keep doing stupid **** like "All other cultures need to be pigeonholed into their own special power source" (Which is why I hope Shugenja are Elemental, not Ki).

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:18 PM
:smallamused:

So says the guy who apparently is ignoring the basic rules of tactics and the order of priorities.
So far all you've said is "THIS STRATEGY MUST APPLY EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES." Seriously, you have no ground to stand on. I'm telling about how actual play works. Why are you even arguing with me on this?


Really, the bottom line is this: Crush the small fry (Standard and Minions) quick, and play it safe, slow, and steady with Elites and Solos.
Yeah, play it "safe and slow" with elites and solos, the guys with the high damage output. And how are you gonna do that without taking the defense-oriented powers in the first place, exactly?

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 05:20 PM
Interestingly enough, healing is more important than straight focus on damage in WoW as well (or at least it was when I played). You could make a party of purely max-damage mages, and you'd all die before you could take down the raid boss. With proper tanking and healing though, you'd take it down.

Keep in mind Az, as a tank your job isn't to deal more damage. It's to protect your party from taking damage. The healing from the cleric/warlord might not be enough in all circumstances to keep you up, and having your own gives you a lot more versatility besides.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:20 PM
So far all you've said is "THIS STRATEGY MUST APPLY EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES." Seriously, you have no ground to stand on. I'm telling about how actual play works. Why are you even arguing with me on this?


Yeah, play it "safe and slow" with elites and solos, the guys with the high damage output. And how are you gonna do that without taking the defense-oriented powers in the first place, exactly?

1) No ground? Have you ever played a variety of games? Some strategies apply everywhere. Period.

2) Indeed, safe and slow. You're not going to down Orcus or the Tarrasque in one blow, or 10, so it's much better to make sure they don't hit you in the first place. Else, THEY will one shot you.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:24 PM
1) No ground? Have you ever played a variety of games? Some strategies apply everywhere. Period.
Yes, I have. And no, they don't.

Again: you have "this strategy MUST APPLY EVERYWHERE" vs. people who've actually played the game and tried various strategies.

But I guess you don't need to know the game to plan good tactics for the game, any more than you need to know game design to design a good game.


2) Indeed, safe and slow. You're not going to down Orcus or the Tarrasque in one blow, or 10, so it's much better to make sure they don't hit you in the first place. Else, THEY will one shot you.
No, they won't one-shot you. (See, THIS is why you need to read the rules.) You should keep your defense and offense up (or you'll take more damage in the long run).

Look, Strikers are designed to do heavy damage to important single targets (like elites). And Strikers are very effective. That kind of goes directly against what you're saying.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 05:26 PM
Interestingly enough, healing is more important than straight focus on damage in WoW as well (or at least it was when I played). You could make a party of purely max-damage mages, and you'd all die before you could take down the raid boss. With proper tanking and healing though, you'd take it down.
Kinda. Most Raid Bosses need a mix of the three. you need enough Tanking that only tanks are taking hits, you need enough healing to keep your tanks up, and you need enough DPS that the boss dies before any form of timer kicks in (Be it Enrages which auto kill tanks, mechanics like "The tank dies every 45 seconds", or what have you.) If there's no timer on the fight, then yeah, with 24 healers and one tank, you will eventually dps that guy down. And you probably deserve whatever loot drops, because that takes godlike patience.

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 05:27 PM
New question: what are the Fighter's highest level powers?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 05:28 PM
I'm going to chuckle a bit at Az here. Turns out that "universal truths" aren't always true.

Example: "The best defense is a good offense"
Game 1 - Players A and B both have 10 HP. They have 10 points per turn that they can spend on their turn for either Defense (to reduce damage taken) or Offense (to inflict damage). When one player is reduced to 0 HP, they lose.

The optimal strategy is for Player A to attack for 10 Damage, and reduce Player B to 0 HP before she can set up a defense. Easy.

Game 2 - Players A & B both have 15 HP. They each start with 10 point, but every turn (after one side takes an action) each side gets 5 more points. They can spend these points on their turn for either Defense (to reduce damage taken) or Offense (to inflict damage). When one player is reduced to 0 HP, they lose.

If Player A attacks to 10 on the first turn, Player B can retaliate for 15 on her turn and win. In this game it makes more sense for Player A to devote at least 1 point to defense so that Player B doesn't wipe her out on her turn.

Deciding strategy without knowing the rules of the game is foolish, and D&D (no matter the edition) is a game, first and foremost.

Okay, enough of being an Internet Jerk.

New request: Class Flavor. So, we know about the Tank/Striker/Leader/Controller division, but what about the flavor of each class? From what I'm seeing, it looks like they're really upping the Aragorn factor on Rangers (more "know-it-all" and "ridiculous two-bladed action" for example) and the Paladin plays as a martyr.

But what about their non-combat roles? And other classes' non-combat roles? Is it set in stone, influenced by skill selection, or what?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:29 PM
New question: what are the Fighter's highest level powers?

Force the Battle Fighter Attack 29
With the slightest flick of your weapon and minimal movement,
you control the battle and turn your enemies’ thoughts from conquest
to survival.
Daily ✦ Martial, Stance, Weapon
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You deal an extra 1[W] damage with your at-will and encounter fighter powers. If an enemy starts its turn adjacent to you, you can use an at-will fighter power against it as a free action at the start of its turn, as long as you are able to make opportunity attacks.



Diamond Shield Defense Fighter Attack 27
Your shield becomes your staunchest ally.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you take half
damage from the target’s attacks until the end of your
next turn.
Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to AC until the end of your
next turn.


Adamantine Strike Fighter Attack 27
Your weapon breaks through shields and armor like they’re made
of parchment.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes
a –2 penalty to AC until the end of your next turn.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 05:31 PM
The comparative shortfall, especially at low levels, of star pact warlock powers, compared to infernal ones, makes me RAAGE.

That said, you get some badass utility powers - and I know what I'm playing for my next game.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 05:31 PM
It's pretty much up to the player. Any class can be a god of knowledge or skillz, any class can be a master of linguistics. There's plenty of room for interesting concepts. I think you can get away with a lot of stuff without the ever-present "fighters can't climb!" jackass hanging around this time.

Also I spent like three hours hammering out a text-based character sheet in monospace, and I just finished my first ever 4e character. :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-05-28, 05:32 PM
Oh, that I can answer.

Level 22 Utility Exploits (Highest set of Utility powers)

Act of Desperation Fighter Utility 22
The sight of one of your friends dying propels you into sudden
action.
Daily ✦ Martial
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: An ally within 10 squares is dying.
Effect: You gain an action point that you must spend during
your current turn.

No Surrender Fighter Utility 22
You refuse to go down, turning a death blow into one last chance
for victory.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: Your hit points drop to 0 or lower
Effect: You regain enough hit points to bring you to one-half
your maximum hit points. However, you take a –2 penalty
to attack rolls until the end of the encounter.

Level 27 Encounter Exploits


Adamantine Strike Fighter Attack 27
Your weapon breaks through shields and armor like they’re made
of parchment.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes
a –2 penalty to AC until the end of your next turn.

Cruel Reaper Fighter Attack 27
You spin your weapon about, carving into adjacent foes and causing
them to scream in agony. Without warning, you slip through
their blockade and make another spinning sweep.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Primary Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: You can shift 2 squares, and then make a secondary
attack.
Secondary Target: Each enemy in close burst 1
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.

Diamond Shield Defense Fighter Attack 27
Your shield becomes your staunchest ally.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you take half
damage from the target’s attacks until the end of your
next turn.
Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to AC until the end of your
next turn.

Indomitable Battle Strike Fighter Attack 27
You will not be denied your enemy’s blood, and other foes that
witness your savage attack know the ill fate that awaits them.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: All of your enemies within 10 squares of you are
marked until the end of your next turn.

Level 29 Dailies.

Force the Battle Fighter Attack 29
With the slightest flick of your weapon and minimal movement,
you control the battle and turn your enemies’ thoughts from conquest
to survival.
Daily ✦ Martial, Stance, Weapon
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You deal an extra 1[W] damage with your at-will and
encounter fighter powers. If an enemy starts its turn adjacent
to you, you can use an at-will fighter power against
it as a free action at the start of its turn, as long as you are
able to make opportunity attacks.

No Mercy Fighter Attack 29
Let nothing stand between a warrior and the object of his wrath.
Daily ✦ Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 7[W] + Strength modifier damage.

Storm of Destruction Fighter Attack 29
You knock aside your enemies’ weapons, creating holes in their
defenses that enable you to strike deadly blows against two of
them at once.
Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target
Hit: 5[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:33 PM
New request: Class Flavor. So, we know about the Tank/Striker/Leader/Controller division, but what about the flavor of each class? From what I'm seeing, it looks like they're really upping the Aragorn factor on Rangers (more "know-it-all" and "ridiculous two-bladed action" for example) and the Paladin plays as a martyr.

But what about their non-combat roles? And other classes' non-combat roles? Is it set in stone, influenced by skill selection, or what?

Well the cleric is an, uh, cleric. Paladins "are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves."

Rogues:
"As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hardluck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all. With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?"


Each class has useful out-of-combat skills. Rogues have by far the most out-of-combat utility powers, what with acrobatics, stealth, thievery, lying to folks. Paladins make good diplomats (and have a level 2 utility power that gives +4 to a diplomacy check once/encounter).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:33 PM
Yes, I have. And no, they don't.

Again: you have "this strategy MUST APPLY EVERYWHERE" vs. people who've actually played the game and tried various strategies.

But I guess you don't need to know the game to plan good tactics for the game, any more than you need to know game design to design a good game.


No, they won't one-shot you. (See, THIS is why you need to read the rules.) You should keep your defense and offense up (or you'll take more damage in the long run).

Look, Strikers are designed to do heavy damage to important single targets (like elites). And Strikers are very effective. That kind of goes directly against what you're saying.

Correct, just like I do not need a particular idea for a musical piece when I do a jam session, and I don't need a particular meticulously planned plot before I sit down to improvise a short story.

Seriously, those strategies are used because they're guaranteed to work. They're as good as "Do not let the other guy hit you", which is an excellent strategy. I don't need to know a battlefield to prepare some basic plans. Once I know it, I modify, preparing an assault from the bowels of the earth, or psychological warfare. Now, have you savvied up to WHY I keep arguing?

Now, as to the idea that they don't one shot you...look at the critters I mentioned. Look at the average damage they do, your average HP, and the average damage YOU do.

You're gonna die, unless you force the critters to miss attacks. End of story.

Yes, Strikers are designed to do heavy damage. The idea is that you help 'em finish their job as fast as you can, because less hits because the monster's dead = G00dz0rz.

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 05:40 PM
Those Fighter utilities make me happy. They might as well have "Cinematic Moment" in the description.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 05:40 PM
It's pretty much up to the player. Any class can be a god of knowledge or skillz, any class can be a master of linguistics. There's plenty of room for interesting concepts. I think you can get away with a lot of stuff without the ever-present "fighters can't climb!" jackass hanging around this time.

Also I spent like three hours hammering out a text-based character sheet in monospace, and I just finished my first ever 4e character. :smallbiggrin:

Clearly, you must post it. :smallbiggrin:

Anyhoo, I guess I was more curious about the "soft" encounter rules. I know in 3rd I became annoyed with a lot of the "social systems" (I ended up trying Rich's Diplomacy Fix and Knowledge rules, for instance) but I also didn't want every NPC decision to be the result of DM fiat.

I've seen the Skill Challenge stuff, but how about the other "social" skills? Do they have much of a role? Do some classes/races have a monopoly (or significant advantage) in these areas, or is it possible to be an influential fighter now?

And how do "reactions" work out now?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 05:41 PM
For example, your paladin might yell, “Feel the might of Bahamut!” every time she uses the righteous smite power, and murmur, “Bahamut’s healing breath wash over you,” when she uses lay on hands.


rickpalm.jpg.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3479/rickpalmse2.jpg

We're calling our attacks now, apparently.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:43 PM
Those Fighter utilities make me happy. They might as well have "Cinematic Moment" in the description.

They're neat indeed. I wonder why they used such bland fluff text for the "I use Apocalypse, you die now, sucker" powers, though. They merit something much cooler.

Trog
2008-05-28, 05:46 PM
Thanks ShadowSiege! :smallbiggrin:

Looks pretty cool. I guess I can't really think of any other enemy configuration than those. Huh... Wierd. :smallconfused:

So... next question...

Anyone wanna post one of my old 1st ed. favorites, the quickling? :smallwink:

*circles up in the sky waiting for the next dying 4th ed. seekrit to stop twitching so he can get down to the serious business of nom-ing on them*

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 05:47 PM
Correct, just like I do not need a particular idea for a musical piece when I do a jam session, and I don't need a particular meticulously planned plot before I sit down to improvise a short story.
Uh-huh. But you sure need to know how to play your instrument, and the details of whatever genre you're writing for.


Seriously, those strategies are used because they're guaranteed to work. They're as good as "Do not let the other guy hit you", which is an excellent strategy. I don't need to know a battlefield to prepare some basic plans. Once I know it, I modify, preparing an assault from the bowels of the earth, or psychological warfare. Now, have you savvied up to WHY I keep arguing?
Because you're clinically incapable of accepting that you're wrong, apparently. You were given an excellent example of how your strategy that is *not* universal by O_H.
"Don't let the other guy hit you" is nice except that you can't actually do it.


Now, as to the idea that they don't one shot you...look at the critters I mentioned. Look at the average damage they do, your average HP, and the average damage YOU do.
Yeah, let's look. The Tarrasque's at-will does 1d12 + 16 damage; 3d12 + 16 with its recharge power. That's not going to one-shot you. It's not even going to two-shot you. A level 30 Fighter will have about 200 HP, and he'll be getting healing at least some of the time.


You're gonna die, unless you force the critters to miss attacks. End of story.
Obviously you'll die faster if you have lower defense. You'll die more *surely* if you have lower *offense*. What you need is a balance of the two.


Yes, Strikers are designed to do heavy damage. The idea is that you help 'em finish their job as fast as you can, because less hits because the monster's dead = G00dz0rz.
Strikes are the natural enemy of Elites.
The game's built-in tactic for dealing with Elites is to hurt them a lot really hard. This is the OPPOSITE of your "slow and steady vs. elites" strategy.


---

Quickling Runner - Level 9 Skirmisher
Small fey humanoid XP 400
Initiative +13, Senses: Perception +7; low-light vision
HP 96; Bloodied 48
AC 24 (28 against opportunity attacks); Fortitude 20, Reflex 24, Will 20
Speed 12, climb 6; see also fey shift and quick cuts
mShort Sword (standard; at-will) - Weapon: +14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 7 damage.
M Quick Cuts (standard; at-will) - Weapon: The quickling moves its speed. At any two points during its move, the quickling makes a melee basic attack at a –2 penalty. The quickling cannot use this power while immobilized or slowed.
Fey Shift (standard; encounter): The quickling runner shifts 10 squares.
Maintain Mobility (minor; recharge 4-6 ): An immobilized quickling runner is no longer immobilized.
Alignment: Evil. Languages: Elven
Skills: Acrobatics +21, Bluff +9, Stealth +16
Str 9 (+3) Dex 24 (+11) Wis 17 (+7)
Con 16 (+7) Int 14 (+6) Cha 10 (+4)
Equipment: short sword

Rutee
2008-05-28, 05:50 PM
We're calling our attacks now, apparently.
That's in 3e. With the same "Might".

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 05:53 PM
So... I'm getting a bit creeped out with the number of "at death" powers they have here. Have I been reading a strange selection, or do a lot of powers actually have a "death" trigger? Weren't they planning on making mortality more... permanent in this version?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 05:54 PM
It's not the 'can call attacks' thing that annoys me. It's the fact that every frakkin' time you smite, Wizards is recommending that you shout 'Feel the might of Bahamut'.

To be honest, I think I'll be giggling every time though. Be prepared for 'Sorrow', the angsty Tiefling Paladin, who struggles to hold back his dark nature, and constantly invites his enemies to 'feel his Bahamut's might'.

All recommended by WotC.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 05:55 PM
Reel:

1) DUH! Of course I do. What I mean is, raw talent and creativity makes sure that, no matter how out of your element you are, how little planning you have, you retain a measure of competence.

2) Seriously, OH nitpicked in a very crappy manner.

Go and find me ONE universal truth and I'll surrender the argument. There are NO universal truths, but I'm using general assumptions that will, in most cases, apply. You can't possibly go wrong with a general assumption, because it gives you a quick response to a wide variety of challenges.

3) And you're doing 40something each turn to a beastie with over 1000 HP. Who's gonna come out on top?

4) Yes, only a fool forsakes ALL of one thing for the other. But a prevalence of X over Y, in most situations (I. E., fighting standards or minions), will be better than a perfect balance of X/Y.

5) Great enemies they turn to be, then. It's calculated that you're going to need a TON of rounds to down the tarrasque, continuing the example (Look it up in Enworld, I'm searching for it). Which is pretty much anathema to the striker motto, "Drop it dead, and do so quick". Thus, it's much better to outlast the goddanged thing, because sure as hell, you're not going to kill it fast.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 05:55 PM
So... I'm getting a bit creeped out with the number of "at death" powers they have here. Have I been reading a strange selection, or do a lot of powers actually have a "death" trigger? Weren't they planning on making mortality more... permanent in this version?

Just at Heroic level (1-10)

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 05:57 PM
Anyone wanna post one of my old 1st ed. favorites, the quickling? :smallwink:


I know I shouldn't consort with Troglodytes, but here you go:

QUICKLINGS ARE SWIFT, WICKED FEY that kill other creatures
for food, treasure, or sport. They like to set ambushes and
outwit enemies, and they frequently ally with other creatures
that share their desires. If their escapades enrage an adversary
too strong to overcome, quicklings have no problem fleeing in
a chorus of nervegrating laughter, leaving their so-called allies
to fend for themselves.
Although quicklings are native to the Feywild, they also
stray into the natural world to keep an eye out for interesting
events and exploitable situations.

Quickling Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful
Arcana check.
DC 15: Quicklings rely on their speed and wits to overcome
their prey and elude their enemies. Devious and cruel,
they delight in trapping, tormenting, and killing other creatures.
They generally focus their attacks on weaker-looking
creatures while dodging tougher adversaries.

Encounter Groups
Quicklings readily ally with other evil fey, including fomorians.
Evil humanoids in the natural world value quicklings as
allies and servants.
Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,150)
✦ 2 quickling runners (level 9 skirmisher)
✦ 1 eladrin twilight incanter (level 8 controller)
✦ 1 feymire crocodile (level 10 elite soldier)

Quickling Runner Level 9 Skirmisher
Small fey humanoid XP 400
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision
HP 96; Bloodied 48
AC 24 (28 against opportunity attacks); Fortitude 20, Refl ex 24,
Will 20
Speed 12, climb 6; see also fey shift and quick cuts
mShort Sword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 7 damage.
M Quick Cuts (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
The quickling moves its speed. At any two points during its move,
the quickling makes a melee basic attack at a –2 penalty. The
quickling cannot use this power while immobilized or slowed.
Fey Shift (standard; encounter)
The quickling runner shifts 10 squares.
Maintain Mobility (minor; recharge ⚃ ⚄ ⚅ )
An immobilized quickling runner is no longer immobilized.
Alignment Evil Languages Elven
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +9, Stealth +16
Str 9 (+3) Dex 24 (+11) Wis 17 (+7)
Con 16 (+7) Int 14 (+6) Cha 10 (+4)
Equipment short sword
Quickling Runner Tactics
The quickling runner waits in ambush, hoping to catch
enemies by surprise. It uses fey shift to slip past enemy defenders
and attacks the weakest-looking opponent. It uses its quick
cuts power as often as possible, relying on its high AC to dodge
opportunity attacks.

Quickling Zephyr Level 14 Lurker
Small fey humanoid XP 1,000
Initiative +20 Senses Perception +10; low-light vision
HP 82; Bloodied 41
AC 30; Fortitude 26, Refl ex 29, Will 23
Speed 12, climb 6; see also blinding speed and unstoppable
m Short Sword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+19 vs. AC; 1d6 + 9 damage.
Blinding Speed (move; recharge ⚃ ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦ Illusion
The quickling zephyr moves up to 12 squares and becomes
invisible until it attacks or until the end of its next turn.
Combat Advantage
If the quickling zephyr has combat advantage against its target, it
deals an extra 2d6 damage and dazes the target (save ends) on a
successful melee attack.
Unstoppable
The quickling zephyr ignores diffi cult terrain and can move
across any solid or liquid surface.
Alignment Evil Languages Elven
Skills Acrobatics +26, Bluff +13, Stealth +21
Str 12 (+8) Dex 28 (+16) Wis 17 (+10)
Con 22 (+13) Int 16 (+10) Cha 12 (+8)
Equipment short sword
Quickling Zephyr Tactics
A quickling zephyr uses its blinding speed to maneuver so that
it gains combat advantage against its enemies.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:01 PM
It's not the 'can call attacks' thing that annoys me. It's the fact that every frakkin' time you smite, Wizards is recommending that you shout 'Feel the might of Bahamut'.

To be honest, I think I'll be giggling every time though. Be prepared for 'Sorrow', the angsty Tiefling Paladin, who struggles to hold back his dark nature, and constantly invites his enemies to 'feel his Bahamut's might'.

All recommended by WotC.

You know, 4th is going to be extremely funny if we take it as camp humour.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 06:03 PM
You know, 4th is going to be extremely funny if we take it as camp humour.

LET BAHAMUT'S MERCY SPILL OVER YOU!
:smallamused:

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 06:05 PM
Funnily enough, all of my current concepts are totally non-crazy epic. Ray Mears-inspired survival expert Ranger, Nietzschean Superman Warlord, Assassin-for-the-Fun-of-It Rogue... Might bring back my Samurai character...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:06 PM
LET BAHAMUT'S MERCY SPILL OVER YOU!
:smallamused:

Pshaw. I can do better, and I know the 4th's warcry.

"Prepare to feel buttkicking in the name of justice!"
-Scnim, Pixie Ranger who had a squeaky voice.

"GO FOR THE EYES, BOO! GO FOR THE EYES!"
-Minsc the ranger, showing knockoffs how it's done.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 06:08 PM
Pshaw. I can do better, and I know the 4th's warcry.

"Prepare to feel buttkicking in the name of justice!"
-Scnim, Pixie Ranger who had a squeaky voice.

"GO FOR THE EYES, BOO! GO FOR THE EYES!"
-Minsc the ranger, showing knockoffs how it's done.

Yeah, well,

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5164/picture13ds8.png

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:13 PM
Oh, so we're bringing out big guns?

Well, then I bring forth the supreme magic item...

The...

M. C. Hammer!

It's a +11 Holy Evil Outsider Dread Acidic Shocking Wounding Collision Magebane Warhammer. However, whenever someone picks it up and tries to fight with it, the hammer will say "STOP! Hammertime", as a special timestop is cast. The hammer wielder leads any people nearby into song as they dance around. Once they finish dancing, the hammer teleports to another plane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzoBkaFxh4)

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 06:14 PM
2) Seriously, OH nitpicked in a very crappy manner.

Go and find me ONE universal truth and I'll surrender the argument. There are NO universal truths, but I'm using general assumptions that will, in most cases, apply. You can't possibly go wrong with a general assumption, because it gives you a quick response to a wide variety of challenges.

Logic Fail :smalltongue:

Here's your chain of logic

In D&D, Attack is the best defense. Healing yourself is NOT being, the better tank. One shotting the monster that was going to hit your pals IS being the better tank.

Saying "In D&D" already assumes that every edition ever made went by the same rules. Heck, this isn't even true in 3rd Edition - being a flying guy with a light crossbow against melee fighters is a lot better than being Sir Hackalot on the ground against kobolds with crossbows.

Next post:

Really? If I slow and retreat, stun, put to sleep, or kill a monster, I've put it twenty gigantic steps closer to defeat, if not having achieved victory outright. True, you're going to have to play it safe, slow 'n steady for enemies like the Tarrasque and others who are simply too powerful, but for the vast majority of the encounters, going nova is going to save you a lot of trouble. Y'know the phrase, attack wins matches but defense wins championships. Basically, you want to go postal on normal enemies and play it safe on Elites and Solos.

Apparently now you're saying that attack wins the small fights, while defense wins against big guys.

Next post:

C'mon.

You're seriously going to say the classic strategy, "Attack wins games, but defense wins championships" doesn't work in 4th?

You're going to say one of the oldest and most effective strategies, which even has a lot of common sense in it to boot, is not going to work, when it has, in pretty much every game that has more than one side competing?

Yeah. Forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.

Not to mention, if you're a defender, it's your job to get shredded and ground into fine bloody mist so that no one else takes a single hit if possible. The Leader ought to be focusing on you, because the striker is getting in and out free, and the Controller is far away. If you let others be hit, you're doing it wrong, and must avoid the situation by any means possible. And it just happens that killing the thing is the BEST mean possible.

I'm... not really sure where you were going here. I mean, as far as "oldest and most effective strategies" go, "Attack wins games, but defense wins championships" isn't much. Aside from its inherent vagueness, I'm pretty sure that a pure-attack game of, say, Chess or Go isn't going to turn out very well for you.

And "if you're a defender, it's your job to get shredded?" If I'm a defender in, say, Soccer, my job is to keep the ball out of the goal. If I'm in a defender in, say, Warhammer, then it's my job to make sure the other poor bastard dies for his country.

I'm going to stop here, since I know reading your own words in order isn't really going to help. But I still don't see how you got from where you started to arguing that "There are NO universal truths."

Anyhoo, back to 4th Ed.

Seriously, how do the "social skills" work? Or is that all in the DMG?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:16 PM
Logic Fail :smalltongue:

Here's your chain of logic


Saying "In D&D" already assumes that every edition ever made went by the same rules. Heck, this isn't even true in 3rd Edition - being a flying guy with a light crossbow against melee fighters is a lot better than being Sir Hackalot on the ground against kobolds with crossbows.

Next post:


Apparently now you're saying that attack wins the small fights, while defense wins against big guys.

Next post:


I'm... not really sure where you were going here. I mean, as far as "oldest and most effective strategies" go, "Attack wins games, but defense wins championships" isn't much. Aside from its inherent vagueness, I'm pretty sure that a pure-attack game of, say, Chess or Go isn't going to turn out very well for you.

And "if you're a defender, it's your job to get shredded?" If I'm a defender in, say, Soccer, my job is to keep the ball out of the goal. If I'm in a defender in, say, Warhammer, then it's my job to make sure the other poor bastard dies for his country.

I'm going to stop here, since I know reading your own words in order isn't really going to help. But I still don't see how you got from where you started to arguing that "There are NO universal truths."

Anyhoo, back to 4th Ed.

Seriously, how do the "social skills" work? Or is that all in the DMG?

That's over now.

And they work via single rolls or skill challenges.

Trog
2008-05-28, 06:16 PM
I know I shouldn't consort with Troglodytes, but here you go:

QUICKLINGS ARE SWIFT, WICKED FEY that kill other creatures
for food, treasure, or sport. They like to set ambushes and
outwit enemies, and they frequently ally with other creatures
that share their desires. If their escapades enrage an adversary
too strong to overcome, quicklings have no problem fleeing in
a chorus of nervegrating laughter, leaving their so-called allies
to fend for themselves.
Although quicklings are native to the Feywild, they also
stray into the natural world to keep an eye out for interesting
events and exploitable situations.

Quickling Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful
Arcana check.
DC 15: Quicklings rely on their speed and wits to overcome
their prey and elude their enemies. Devious and cruel,
they delight in trapping, tormenting, and killing other creatures.
They generally focus their attacks on weaker-looking
creatures while dodging tougher adversaries.

Encounter Groups
Quicklings readily ally with other evil fey, including fomorians.
Evil humanoids in the natural world value quicklings as
allies and servants.
Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,150)
✦ 2 quickling runners (level 9 skirmisher)
✦ 1 eladrin twilight incanter (level 8 controller)
✦ 1 feymire crocodile (level 10 elite soldier)

Quickling Runner Level 9 Skirmisher
Small fey humanoid XP 400
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision
HP 96; Bloodied 48
AC 24 (28 against opportunity attacks); Fortitude 20, Refl ex 24,
Will 20
Speed 12, climb 6; see also fey shift and quick cuts
mShort Sword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 7 damage.
M Quick Cuts (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
The quickling moves its speed. At any two points during its move,
the quickling makes a melee basic attack at a –2 penalty. The
quickling cannot use this power while immobilized or slowed.
Fey Shift (standard; encounter)
The quickling runner shifts 10 squares.
Maintain Mobility (minor; recharge ⚃ ⚄ ⚅ )
An immobilized quickling runner is no longer immobilized.
Alignment Evil Languages Elven
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +9, Stealth +16
Str 9 (+3) Dex 24 (+11) Wis 17 (+7)
Con 16 (+7) Int 14 (+6) Cha 10 (+4)
Equipment short sword
Quickling Runner Tactics
The quickling runner waits in ambush, hoping to catch
enemies by surprise. It uses fey shift to slip past enemy defenders
and attacks the weakest-looking opponent. It uses its quick
cuts power as often as possible, relying on its high AC to dodge
opportunity attacks.

Quickling Zephyr Level 14 Lurker
Small fey humanoid XP 1,000
Initiative +20 Senses Perception +10; low-light vision
HP 82; Bloodied 41
AC 30; Fortitude 26, Refl ex 29, Will 23
Speed 12, climb 6; see also blinding speed and unstoppable
m Short Sword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+19 vs. AC; 1d6 + 9 damage.
Blinding Speed (move; recharge ⚃ ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦ Illusion
The quickling zephyr moves up to 12 squares and becomes
invisible until it attacks or until the end of its next turn.
Combat Advantage
If the quickling zephyr has combat advantage against its target, it
deals an extra 2d6 damage and dazes the target (save ends) on a
successful melee attack.
Unstoppable
The quickling zephyr ignores diffi cult terrain and can move
across any solid or liquid surface.
Alignment Evil Languages Elven
Skills Acrobatics +26, Bluff +13, Stealth +21
Str 12 (+8) Dex 28 (+16) Wis 17 (+10)
Con 22 (+13) Int 16 (+10) Cha 12 (+8)
Equipment short sword
Quickling Zephyr Tactics
A quickling zephyr uses its blinding speed to maneuver so that
it gains combat advantage against its enemies.

Yay! Quicklings! :smallbiggrin:

*Dives, Devours* Nom nom nom nom... BUUUURP. Mmm-mm. Good stuff those quicklings. Trog-buzzard sure is full. Yup... uh... oh wait. Not full any more... these things must digest as fast as they... uh... um... is there a little Trog-buzzard's room around here? :smalleek:

Rutee
2008-05-28, 06:19 PM
Seriously, how do the "social skills" work? Or is that all in the DMG?

It's probably in the PHB, but I'm reading it in order.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 06:27 PM
Reel:

1) DUH! Of course I do. What I mean is, raw talent and creativity makes sure that, no matter how out of your element you are, how little planning you have, you retain a measure of competence.
You're assuming you have a lot of raw talent and creativity. So much of it, in fact, that you're arguing with somebody who has all the facts and numbers and has experience with the thing in question. It's that arrogance--I'm so talented I MUST be right, even if I know nothing about the topic!--that makes it hard to take you seriously.


2) Seriously, OH nitpicked in a very crappy manner.

Go and find me ONE universal truth and I'll surrender the argument. There are NO universal truths, but I'm using general assumptions that will, in most cases, apply. You can't possibly go wrong with a general assumption, because it gives you a quick response to a wide variety of challenges.
Of COURSE you can possibly go wrong, because there are situations and plenty of them in which it won't apply! If it's not universal, how can you say you "can't possibly" go wrong?
Your strategy isn't even CLOSE to universal.

You were just saying "Some strategies apply everywhere. Period." You said that. Now it's "some strategies apply generally in most cases".

Well they DON'T consistently apply here, any more than they do in O_H's example.


3) And you're doing 40something each turn to a beastie with over 1000 HP. Who's gonna come out on top?
"40-something each turn"?
Look, this is why you should speculate--because you don't know the mechanics. You don't KNOW how much damage player characters do at level 30, individually, much less *together*. You don't know how party makeup influences this (a party with a Warlord and a party with a Cleric don't play the same). You don't know any of these things. And they're IMPORTANT. They're what one should cue off of, not your "general strategy" which works except when it doesn't.


4) Yes, only a fool forsakes ALL of one thing for the other. But a prevalence of X over Y, in most situations (I. E., fighting standards or minions), will be better than a perfect balance of X/Y.
And sometimes that balance will tilt towards defense. Sometimes it'll tilt towards offense. It depends on the individual monster. The Tarrasque and Orcus require totally different tactics to fight efficiently.


5) Great enemies they turn to be, then. It's calculated that you're going to need a TON of rounds to down the tarrasque, continuing the example (Look it up in Enworld, I'm searching for it). Which is pretty much anathema to the striker motto, "Drop it dead, and do so quick". Thus, it's much better to outlast the goddanged thing, because sure as hell, you're not going to kill it fast.
The striker motto is "do a crapload of damage". The Striker does that.

Assassin's Point, Rogue 29 Daily:
Assassin’s Point - Rogue Attack 29
A sliced throat or a bolt through the heart—it’s all good.
Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 7[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Special: If you have combat advantage against the target, double any extra damage from Sneak Attack or a critical hit.

The Rogue is also a Daggermaster (paragon path). He's used the Daggermaster Utility 12 power to get 1d8 daggers. His dexterity is... let's call it 26. He crits on an 18-20, doing 7d8+10d6+13 (Dexterity, magic dagger). He's also got magic item powers. That's about damage right there, unoptimized, without a crit.
Wanna optimize? Hey, he's also a Brutal Scoundrel. He gets his STR to Sneak Attack damage. His STR is 22, +6. That's another +12 damage on top of that. He's got magic item powers, he's got racial abilities (Bugbear rogue), etc; basically, he easily does an average of 100 points of damage. Not 40. Oh, wait, +15 from level: 115. I can show you similar, if slightly slower, tricks with lower-level powers, encounter powers, etc. Next round you hit him with 20 ongoing damage on top of a tough attack. You use a trick to recover your Assassin's Point power and use it again.

And this is just the rogue. The party has four other people, who aren't doing as much damage as he is, but are definitely doing over 40.

Warlord 29 Daily, "Defy Death":
Level 29 Daily Exploits
Defy Death Warlord Attack 29
You leap to your ally’s side and spare him from the jaws of death.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial,Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee weapon
Trigger: A creature attacks your ally
Target: The attacking creature
Special: As part of this action, you can move twice your speed
to reach the target without provoking opportunity attacks.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 7[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target’s attack
misses.
Miss: Half damage, and the target’s attack deals half damage
if it hits.
Effect: As an immediate reaction, the attacked ally can
spend a healing surge.
He does this when the Tarrasque attacks the Rogue. It has offense and defense. In one power. See, a nice blend. 2d6 maul... +7 from STR, +6 weapon... miscellaneous bonuses... +15 level... he'll do about 85 points of damage.

Fighter, go! He uses "Force the Battle", getting +1[W] with each at-will and encounter power and a free-action at-will (which, with Force the Battle, will be doing 3[W]+STR+weapon+bonuses+level, that'll be about 55 points) every round. Just, you know, casually, at the start of each round--*then* he uses his encounters and dailies on top of that.

Quit telling me what the right tactics are for a game whose rules you don't know.
I've read the rules. I've played the game. I am talking from knowledge and experience. There is no way that doesn't trump your "talent" and "general strategy".

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 06:32 PM
Warlord 29 Daily, "Defy Death":
Level 29 Daily Exploits
Defy Death Warlord Attack 29
You leap to your ally’s side and spare him from the jaws of death.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial,Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee weapon
Trigger: A creature attacks your ally
Target: The attacking creature
Special: As part of this action, you can move twice your speed
to reach the target without provoking opportunity attacks.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 7[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target’s attack
misses.
Miss: Half damage, and the target’s attack deals half damage
if it hits.
Effect: As an immediate reaction, the attacked ally can
spend a healing surge.

:smalleek:

That does it, I'm playing a Warlord.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 06:37 PM
Wow. That's awesome.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:39 PM
Reel, that's over. I'm going to say just one thing and close the case:

Daily power.

One use of that big trick. That's it.

Timberboar
2008-05-28, 06:45 PM
Two things, Reel On:

1) Any example of rogue sneak attack leetness that doesn't utilize the backstabber feat is inherently flawed. :P

2) Where are you getting +half level added to damage?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 06:46 PM
Reel, that's over. I'm going to say just one thing and close the case:

Daily power.

One use of that big trick. That's it.

Again, Azerian, this is because you DO NOT KNOW what 4E characters can and can't do. The Rogue would have the Deadly Trickster Epic Destiny, which has a daily power which lets him recover all his daily powers, among other things (he doesn't get that one back).
Oh, and if he rolls an 18 or higher on the first attack roll it's not expended in the first place... and he can reroll a d20 thrice a day. Four times if he's a halfling, or has the right feat, or ETC.
And, hey, looky here, I forgot to add in Power Attack damage, that's another +9.

So after Assassin's Point, after Ghost on the Wind (which will do 85+ damage), after Snake's Retreat (same), he recovers them all. And he's got Encounter powers, too.

And that's not even the only way of recovering Daily powers in the book.


See, Az? This is why it's important to actually be familiar with a system before you decide tactics based on what characters in that system can and can't do.

ETA: my bad, you don't add half level to damage. OK, replace that with Power Attack. That's +9 to 12 damage, which means you're a few points down over the numbers I had.
ETA2: and, of course, the Backstabber feat makes that up. That's an extra 10 points, meaning that the rogue's actually doing 119 on average.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 06:47 PM
It's probably in the PHB, but I'm reading it in order.


:frown:

I... guess I'll just go do something else for a bit then. Maybe... go outside?

Man, vicariously reading a rulebook ain't all it's cracked up to be.

EDIT: Reel, he surrendered, show mercy.

Or skip ahead to the social rules and sate my curiosity!

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 06:52 PM
Azerian, at this point you're reminding me of another poster. One who's name starts with "Sir" and ends with "Giacomo."

(Well, not just him, but he's the most prominent example.)

Dude, harsh.

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 06:53 PM
Dude, harsh.

I missed the post where he wanted to quit arguing. Hence my retraction (and deletion of the message).

Edit @ V: Exactly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 06:53 PM
Not to mention a few posts late. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 06:58 PM
There are NO universal truths

That would be a universal truth then, would it not? :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 07:00 PM
That would be a universal truth then, would it not? :smallbiggrin:

Nope, it's a null statement, as it is for now impossible to either demonstrate or disprove.

Hooray for the loophole seeker/Rhethorics feat combo!

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 07:02 PM
"I'm gonna close the case" is "surrender"?

Well, I hope the point is clear, Az: don't pretend to be an expert on something you haven't even read yet. Your general strategy and "talent" does not magically trump experience and knowledge.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 07:03 PM
Strong verification principle, oh shi-

Ozymandias
2008-05-28, 07:04 PM
Nope, it's a null statement, as it is for now impossible to either demonstrate or disprove.

Wouldn't that be an assertion of a universal truth?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 07:06 PM
Wouldn't that be an assertion of a universal truth?

Nope, because it's an "either" assertion. A part of the statement will be invalidated in due time. THEN it'll be an universal truth.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 07:07 PM
"I'm gonna close the case" is "surrender"?

It is, because it means "I exit the scene before looking like a completely asinine and moronic buffoon". Essentially, I get the benefit of having participated in a debate, without the cons.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 07:34 PM
Well, derailment aside, I have enjoyed the sneak peak provided by this thread.

Hooray!

Y'see, personally my biggest concern with 4th Ed. was that WotC would make it completely a minatures game. What I mean by that is they would focus so much on making sure the combat part of the game worked so well (and, consequentially, pretty much needs a battlemat and figurines to run) that they would neglect the rules for social skills and interactions.

D&D was never too strong on those to begin with, but the early editions had tons of fluff attached to your character that could guide those actions. Heck, Non-Weapon Proficiencies were almost entirely a roleplaying tool, and things like Thieves' Cant and the old "there can be only one" Druid & Monk advancement system were kind of fun.

When they got rid of Thieves' Cant, I began to worry. And now they're cutting back on the Knowledge Skills and such. And Alignment has been (crudely) simplified.

But that might be OK, since they may just be streamlining the non-combat side, and making it "play" well. But I don't really know... if they don't fix, say, Diplomacy and the Reaction Tables, or if nobody really has "fluffy" abilities anymore, then I'll be a bit miffed. In a sense, that would be heading back to their roots (Basic D&D - all dungeon crawls all the time) and Lord knows that can be fun, but man, I really miss the non-adventuring side of adventurers, y'know?

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 08:08 PM
When they got rid of Thieves' Cant, I began to worry. And now they're cutting back on the Knowledge Skills and such. And Alignment has been (crudely) simplified.

Knowledge skills are still in, we just hadn't seen the results tables for monsters because they're not there. That result table is in the PHB, and it reveals the monster's name, descriptors, powers, resistances and vulnerabilities based on your check result with the DC changed according to if it is a heroic, paragon, or epic tier creature. Diplomacy seems to be a skill for when the DM calls for it, used in skill challenges and no longer the uber-brainwashing skill of 3e.

As for the simplification of alignment, they did an excellent job, in my opinion, of describing and distinguishing the five alignments. I found the vagueness of the neutral alignments to be very annoying at times.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:13 PM
Someone had a question about evil clerics and paladins...


Divine Evil
Evil and chaotic evil deities have clerics and paladins
just as other gods do. However, the powers of those
classes, as presented in the Player’s Handbook, are
strongly slanted toward good and lawful good characters.
Players might find it jarring to fight a paladin of
Zehir whose weapon erupts with radiant light.
You can alter the nature of powers without changing
their basic effects, making them feel more
appropriate for the servants of evil gods: changing
the damage type of a prayer, for instance, so that evil
clerics and paladins deal necrotic damage instead of
radiant damage. When a prayer would blind its target
with holy light, it might instead shroud a character’s
eyes with clinging darkness. Holy fire consuming a
foe with ongoing fire damage might become a coating
of acidic slime that eats away at the flesh, or a purple
hellfire with identical effects.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 09:19 PM
Knowledge skills are still in, we just hadn't seen the results tables for monsters because they're not there. That result table is in the PHB, and it reveals the monster's name, descriptors, powers, resistances and vulnerabilities based on your check result with the DC changed according to if it is a heroic, paragon, or epic tier creature. Diplomacy seems to be a skill for when the DM calls for it, used in skill challenges and no longer the uber-brainwashing skill of 3e.

As for the simplification of alignment, they did an excellent job, in my opinion, of describing and distinguishing the five alignments. I found the vagueness of the neutral alignments to be very annoying at times.

Hmm... but how is the DM to pick DC's? I understand Skill Challenges and such, but do they give guidelines for how to pick the DCs for Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate? I'm sure that kind of stuff is in the DMG (and I like the "fun fact" tables for Knowledge skills they have next to the monster diagrams).

I know the refrain "make 'em yourself!" but it's helpful if everyone understands how good a particular bonus is for a skill. That's my feelings, anyhow.

Re: Alignment (rant)
I know I'm in the minority here, but I liked the alignment system. Just like the same sort of guides you had in other systems (Whitewolf = Nature & Demeanor), they provided a good reference if you ever faced a situation that you hadn't really thought of how your character would react. Once you get comfortable with system, you can pick what kind of character you want to be when you start, and keep within the guidelines.

Also, considering the powerful morality that pervades the Swords & Sorcery genre, it was helpful to have alignments about to allow real alignment combat (Good v. Evil, Law v. Chaos, etc) and build the weapons to do it!

I always felt a lot of the "alignment is too constraining" sentiment stems from DMs who used it like a hammer, rather than a guidepost. The XP penalty was there to put *some* kind of penalty for LG Fighter from ignoring the King's orders and just slaughtering a Thieves' Guild rather than bringing them to justice. A quick rap on the PCs skull and the DM saying "are you sure a LG character would do that?" usually was enough to put people back in character. No need to say "Bwahahaha! Now you're CG!" while slapping the PC with a 10% XP gain penalty.

And especially for Paladins and Priests, having a fine-grained alignment system helps define the range of action that a given Deity will allow. If your God is N, then he thinks that morality just isn't all that important (or, if TN, extremely important, but I never liked TN) and he probably isn't going to take kindly to having LG priests running around. Why, the whole point of the Neutral part of the spectrum was to cover people who care only about certain parts of the "moral" spectrum. CG means that you reject any society's ideas of what is "right" to do - you're guided by your own moral compass. NG means that you're OK with following the rules if they let you do Good, but if they get in your way, you're fine doing something else. LG means that the rules *are* the right way to do Good, and when the rules are Evil, you have to fix the rules, not ignore them.

But now? Now you can't play devil-may-care individualists (CN) or just-following-orders stalwarts (LN) without ignoring either the "Good" or "Evil" part of the description, or playing a decidedly aligned "Unaligned." Perhaps the alignment rules are better than that (haven't read them yet :smalltongue:) but from the description, they seem... poorer for the change.

Phew, that was long! Read at your own risk! :smalltongue:

Abardam
2008-05-28, 09:29 PM
Well, now I can't decide on which fighter weapon my first character is going to be using. They all look so sweet.

Unless... I use all of them! Hells yeah walking weapon rack


Cloud Jump - Rogue Utility 22
Encounter - Martial
Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Athletics.
Effect: Make two consecutive Athletics checks to jump, with a +5 power bonus to each. You don’t have to land between the jumps and can exceed your normal movement.shiiiiiiiit

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 09:50 PM
Has everyone read the Epic abilities? They're insanely good.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 09:55 PM
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

PROMISES HAVE BEEN BROKEN. Social Encounters are just 'normal' skill challenges, with Diplomacy against a DM Decided DC. KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!!!

Found the Diplomancy of 4e (Seriously this is too easy wtf are they doing?)

Intimidate. Intimidate Check vs. Enemy's Will. Force a Bloodied character to surrender.

1condor12
2008-05-28, 09:57 PM
hey feel free to shoot down my happyness but i heard for a semireliably sourse( a reliable sourse that told a less than relieable sourse that told me) , and i feel i must mention that i have not read this thread so if someone has asked this already i am sorry. that wizards dont have spells per day anymore. instead the stronger the spell the easyer to dodge it is. Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true Please let this be true and if it is i will jump for joy

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 10:07 PM
Hmm... but how is the DM to pick DC's? I understand Skill Challenges and such, but do they give guidelines for how to pick the DCs for Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate? I'm sure that kind of stuff is in the DMG (and I like the "fun fact" tables for Knowledge skills they have next to the monster diagrams).

I know the refrain "make 'em yourself!" but it's helpful if everyone understands how good a particular bonus is for a skill. That's my feelings, anyhow.


There is a table in the DMG with DC guidelines for easy, moderate, and difficult DCs for levels 1-3, 4-6, etc, as well as improvisational damage guidelines in the same table.

As for alignment, they handle it well. Good catches both Chaotic Good and Neutral Good (which were very close to each other, just a shade more respect for law in Neutral Good), and Unaligned catches both chaotic, lawful, and true neutral alignments: "I'll do as I please", "I'll do as ordered" and "Meh."

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 10:13 PM
As for alignment, they handle it well. Good catches both Chaotic Good and Neutral Good (which were very close to each other, just a shade more respect for law in Neutral Good)

Isn't a bit closer to 4e Good = 3e CG and 4e Evil = 3e LE?

The 4e "Good" alignment values freedom above all, which sounds like CG to me. The 4e Evil alignment "use rules and order to maximize gain" and values tyranny, which sounds like LE to me.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 10:15 PM
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

PROMISES HAVE BEEN BROKEN. Social Encounters are just 'normal' skill challenges, with Diplomacy against a DM Decided DC. KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!!!

Found the Diplomancy of 4e (Seriously this is too easy wtf are they doing?)

Intimidate. Intimidate Check vs. Enemy's Will. Force a Bloodied character to surrender.


:sigh:

It is as I feared: WotC wussed out. Rather than ask the most excellent Rich Burlew how he would fix the social encounter system, they just said "hey, DM's, figure it out!"

I'm intrigued by the idea of Intimidate v. Will, but it may be poorly executed. It gives the Intimidate skill a reasonable role in combat, and Will should scale with level. However, Fighters and warriors, I would imagine, have terrible Will Saves, and yet they're the ones you'd expect to surrender last. Even though I don't have the rules in front of me, I can already think of an easy fix to this though:

Fix for Intimidate
As a House Rule, I'd let the DM choose the Will or Fortitude score for the DC, whichever is highest. After all, if you're a tough guy, you're not going to surrender easily. :smallbiggrin:

Additionally, I'd give a bonus to the Defender for each ally within, say, 10 feet (+1 for Bloodied, +2 for not). Roll off the highest score available, and give hefty bonuses for circumstances (like if the PCs are genocidal or if they started off the fight asking for the surrender). Make the Intimidate check require a "Standard" action (whatever they call it now) to prevent PCs from cheesing it off too much... maybe with a creeping +1 bonus per check failed?

Neat, huh? In fact, you could base the DCs off of Will Scores for Diplomacy too, with appropriate modifiers. Bluff... well, Will doesn't make too much sense there, but we can go with it.

This all falls apart, of course, if NPCs are not easy to stat out anymore, or have ridiculously low Will scores. It'd provide a nice guideline too.

EDIT:

There is a table in the DMG with DC guidelines for easy, moderate, and difficult DCs for levels 1-3, 4-6, etc, as well as improvisational damage guidelines in the same table.

As for alignment, they handle it well. Good catches both Chaotic Good and Neutral Good (which were very close to each other, just a shade more respect for law in Neutral Good), and Unaligned catches both chaotic, lawful, and true neutral alignments: "I'll do as I please", "I'll do as ordered" and "Meh."

Ah, a DC table makes me happier. I'll need to see how it works out in reality, but hopefully with the diminished synergy cheese we won't have 1st level bards telling BBEG to make love, not war. If it fails, then there is always the house rule.

The fuzziness in alignments still bugs me. As Rich Burlew displays in OotS, the traditional alignment system has a lot of give in it already (compare Miko, Hinjo, and Roy, for example) and it really isn't that hard to distinguish between them.

The "unaligned" category gives me particular pause. No individual should be allowed to swing from happily following orders to rebelling against all authority. That's not an alignment, that's giving up.

I will either keep the old alignment system in my 4th Ed games (I think I will buy it after all), or at the start of every session I will pour one out for the NE Thief who did what he must because he could, the LN Dwarf who followed tradition even if it killed him, the NG Halfling who was jolly and carefree, and the CN Bard who flitted from town to town, loving and leaving the daughters of nobility.

ahammer
2008-05-28, 10:18 PM
Isn't a bit closer to 4e Good = 3e CG and 4e Evil = 3e LE?

The 4e "Good" alignment values freedom above all, which sounds like CG to me. The 4e Evil alignment "use rules and order to maximize gain" and values tyranny, which sounds like LE to me.

i want to say it sounds like ng and ne to me

NE for sure as he does not realy follow the laws for the law sake he just uses them as a means to a end.

and NG(bit harder to make the cast for) becuse it does not say that are anti-law they just like there freedom.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 10:21 PM
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

PROMISES HAVE BEEN BROKEN. Social Encounters are just 'normal' skill challenges, with Diplomacy against a DM Decided DC. KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!!!

Found the Diplomancy of 4e (Seriously this is too easy wtf are they doing?)

Intimidate. Intimidate Check vs. Enemy's Will. Force a Bloodied character to surrender.

Have you read the DMG yet Rutee? Social encounters run on an initiative, so every character has to pull their weight.

Also, Intimidate vs Will to make a bloodied enemy surrender: The enemy gets a +10 on their will defense because they are hostile. That's quite a bonus for an opposed check.

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 10:26 PM
Also, Intimidate vs Will to make a bloodied enemy surrender: The enemy gets a +10 on their will defense because they are hostile. That's quite a bonus for an opposed check.

Not enough, all things considered. I'm already expecting builds twinking out Intimidate.

Fighter: "Orcus, surrender! My allies and I might be near death, but you're not looking so great yourself!"
Orcus: "Well, that was pretty convincing. All right, you win."

Edit: Also, watch me force enemies to surrender at half hit points, relieve them of their weaponry, and then coup-de-grace them.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 10:27 PM
Have you read the DMG yet Rutee? Social encounters run on an initiative, so every character has to pull their weight.

Also, Intimidate vs Will to make a bloodied enemy surrender: The enemy gets a +10 on their will defense because they are hostile. That's quite a bonus for an opposed check.

Yeah, I noticed that, but bear in mind the +5 bonus for having it trained, and various Utilities like the Rogue's Mob Mentality.



It is as I feared. WotC wussed out and rather than ask the most excellent Rich Burlew how he would fix the social encounter system, they just said "hey, DM's, figure it out!

No, they didn't say "Hey, DMs, Figure it out!" But they didn't give it a distinct(ish) system either, they just work it like other Skill Challenges. I was hoping for a distinct(ish) system.

Edea
2008-05-28, 10:33 PM
Also, that's once per encounter. You can't keep doing it every round until they "roll a natural 1" or whatever. Also, no more +30 bazillion circumstance bonus a la Bard; I also think it's a lot easier to enhance Will defense in combat than the skill check modifier (an item for +6 to Intimidate is 27th level, and costs well over a million gold).

Nonetheless, I agree with Rutee that this seems to be a broken promise, especially on the part of this not being a very distinctive system for the interaction (it's an opposed check; that's ripped directly from 3e).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-28, 10:33 PM
Have you read the DMG yet Rutee? Social encounters run on an initiative, so every character has to pull their weight.

On... initiative? Like:
DM: Okay, you five sit down around the old man's table in the Prancing Pony. He nods sagely at you and says "I have called you here for an important quest." Roll initiative!
Rogue: 17! "We'll take it! How much does it pay?"
Old Man: "100 gold apiece. Here's the map to the Red Dragon's layer. Good luck!"
Warlord: 5. *grumble* Stupid high dex twit always getting us into trouble.

I'm all for systematizing stuff, but rolling initiative for a discussion seems a little... odd.

EDIT:

Also, that's once per encounter. You can't keep doing it every round until they "roll a natural 1" or whatever. Also, no more +30 bazillion circumstance bonus a la Bard; I also think it's a lot easier to enhance Will defense in combat than the skill check modifier (an item for +6 to Intimidate is 27th level, and costs well over a million gold).

Well... I don't quite like the once per encounter thing either. I mean, what if the baddie has lost half his guys, is bloodied, but knows he has a cure potion in his back pocket and snipers on the ridge... and then after he passes his check his snipers are fireballed and his potion does minimal curing (or something like that).

Eh, it actually sounds like WotC put some effort into it, so I'll withhold further judgment before I read the whole thing. Where did y'all hear about some sort of "special system" for social encounters? Seems to me that WotC has been trying to reduce the number of special systems floating around, not increase their numbers.

Helgraf
2008-05-28, 10:37 PM
On... initiative? Like:
DM: Okay, you five sit down around the old man's table in the Prancing Pony. He nods sagely at you and says "I have called you here for an important quest." Roll initiative!
Rogue: 17! "We'll take it! How much does it pay?"
Old Man: "100 gold apiece. Here's the map to the Red Dragon's layer. Good luck!"
Warlord: 5. *grumble* Stupid high dex twit always getting us into trouble.

I'm all for systematizing stuff, but rolling initiative for a discussion seems a little... odd.

No, an initiative, like, the old man is going to want to ask each of your party members questions, not just the glib-tongued skillometer, in order to assess your worthiness for his task. There's a pretty direct example of how this works in Keep on the Shadowfell, actually.

So within the context of the social challenge, everyone gets to (and in some cases, must) play a part, not just the silver-tongued angels.