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ShadowSiege
2008-05-27, 11:25 PM
Original Ritual Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080528a)
Original Undead Article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080528b)

Wraith Art Preview:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080528_114879_0.jpg


Ritual Article:

Excerpts: Rituals
4th Edition Player's Handbook

In today’s preview, we look at the complex ceremonies known as rituals. R&D’s Peter Schaefer walks us through how they are cast, and what they can achieve.

Welcome wizards, clerics, and other initiates to Rituals 101, where you will learn what rituals are and what they are not.

Rituals take time to cast. Unlike a wizard’s spells or a cleric’s prayers, which can be cast under pressure and at a moment’s notice, rituals require preparation, costly components, and time—these are effects that must wait for a quiet moment before you call on their power.

Rituals are used for effects you cannot accomplish in other ways. Looking upon a creature from afar, traveling halfway across the world with a few steps, speaking with distant friends, leaving behind a mouth to speak your message: these are all capabilities that rituals offer. Some rituals supply the abilities of absent comrades, such as magically opening locks or sensing secret doors. Using them in such a way, however, is rarely your first choice; letting the rogue pick the lock is the cheaper and faster option.

Some powers that will be familiar from past editions of the game now reside in rituals. Enduring illusions, for example—from false walls to goblins made from nothing but trickery—are rituals. You can also summon a prepared treasure chest full of gear (or empty, to fill it with treasure), or create a floating disk to carry your loot. Rituals help you understand languages you’ve never studied, conjure mounts, and lift curses and diseases from your friends.

Rituals fall into one of nine categories:

* Binding (Arcana or Religion): These rituals seek to lure, ensnare, control, or protect you from other beings, sometimes from other planes.


* Creation (Arcana or Religion): These rituals are used to craft magic items and other special objects.


* Deception (Arcana): Deception rituals cloak reality behind various facades.


* Divination (Arcana, Nature, or Religion): These rituals provide advice, information, or guidance.


* Exploration (Arcana, Nature, or Religion): A catch-all category, exploration rituals include a variety of effects useful in everyday adventuring.


* Restoration (Heal): These rituals remove ill effects from the living or bring back the dead.


* Scrying (Arcana): Scrying rituals let the caster spy on locations, objects, or creatures.


* Travel (Arcana): Travel rituals transport characters from one place, or plane, to another.


* Warding (Arcana): These rituals provide various forms of protection.

That’s a look at what rituals are. Here’s what they are not. Rituals are not buffs for combat. There are no rituals that give you temporary hit points, make your attacks do more damage, let you fly above the battlefield, or wrap you in coronas of flame that scorch your enemies.

That said, rituals can tactically inform combat: If you cast Arcane Lock on the door to the barracks before the alarm went off, if you cast Water Breathing before fighting in the city of canals, if you used an illusion to increase your apparent numbers, then you may well have gained an advantage in a fight. Rituals are primarily utility, and can only be used for tactical advantage by the clever.
--Peter Schaefer




Rituals are complex ceremonies that create magic effects. You don’t memorize or prepare a ritual; a ritual is so long and complex that no one could ever commit the whole thing to memory. To perform a ritual, you need to read from a book or a scroll containing it.

A ritual book contains one or more rituals that you can use as often and as many times as you like, as long as you can spare the time and the components to perform the ritual.

A ritual scroll contains a single ritual, and you can perform the ritual from that scroll only once. After that, the magic contained in the scroll is expended, and the scroll turns to dust. Anyone can use a ritual scroll to perform the ritual it contains, as long as the appropriate components are expended.
Performing a Ritual

To perform a ritual that you have mastered, you spend a certain amount of time (specified in the ritual description) performing various actions appropriate to the ritual. The actions might include reading long passages out of the ritual book, scribing complex diagrams on the ground, burning special incense or sprinkling mystic reagents at appropriate times, or performing a long set of meticulous gestures. The specific activities required aren’t described in most ritual descriptions; they’re left to your imagination.

A ritual requires certain esoteric components, which you purchase before you perform the ritual and which are expended when the ritual is complete. Each ritual specifies the cost of the components you need.

If a ritual requires a skill check, the check usually determines the ritual’s effectiveness. Even if the check result is low, a ritual usually succeeds, but if the result is high, you can usually achieve better effects.
How to Read a Ritual

Rituals are described in a consistent format, the elements of which are outlined below.

Name and Flavor Text
Beneath a ritual’s name is a short passage of flavor text that tells what a ritual accomplishes, sometimes expressing that information in terms of what the ritual looks like or sounds like as it’s being performed.

Level
Each ritual has a level. You have to be that level or higher to perform the ritual from a book or to copy it.

Time
Performing a ritual takes the specified amount of time. Using a scroll cuts that time in half.

Duration
This entry shows how long a ritual’s effects last after the completion of the ritual. The effects of a ritual usually last longer than those of a power.

Component Cost
This is the value of the components that must be expended to perform a ritual. A ritual’s key skill determines the kind of components required.

* Alchemical Reagents (Arcana): Typically these are small vials full of powdered metals, rare earths, acids, salts, or extracts from creatures such as dragons or basilisks.


* Mystic Salves (Heal): Restoration rituals use mystic salves, dabbed or painted on the creatures to be healed. These salves come in small jars and include blessed oils and unguents made from rare spices.


* Rare Herbs (Nature): Rare herbs are usually collected and preserved during certain times of year, such as when the moon is full.


* Sanctified Incense (Religion): Sanctified incense is prepared during certain religious rites and is burned as a powder or a stick.


* Residuum (Any): The concentrated magical substance that results from performing the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, residuum can be used as a component for any ritual. You can’t usually buy it on the open market; you acquire it by draining it out of magic items.

You can use the components associated with a key skill for any ritual that uses that skill. For example, if you stock up on alchemical reagents, you can use them when you perform any Arcana-based ritual. Ritual components are not interchangeable; you can’t use alchemical reagents to perform a ritual requiring sanctified incense, for example. But you can use residuum for any ritual.

You can buy ritual components at some shops, your allies can provide them (sharing the cost of a ritual with you), or you might find them as treasure. However you acquire components, record their value on your character sheet. When you perform a ritual, mark off the ritual’s cost from the appropriate components.

Some rituals’ descriptions note other costs, including healing surges or a focus item (such as a mirror or a crystal ball for a scrying ritual). A focus item is not expended when you perform a ritual.

Market Price
This entry is the cost to purchase a ritual book containing the ritual or to copy a ritual into an existing ritual book. A scroll containing a ritual costs the same amount.

Key Skill
A ritual’s key skill determines the type of components required to perform the ritual, and if a ritual requires a skill check, the key skill is used for the check. If this entry ends with “(no check),” then the ritual does not require a skill check.

If a ritual has more than one key skill, you choose which skill to use. Your choice determines both the components you use and the skill you use for any checks required by the ritual.

Unless a ritual’s description says otherwise, you make your skill check when you finish performing a ritual. You can’t take 10 on one of these skill checks.

Effects
The text that follows the foregoing information describes what happens when you finish performing a ritual.

Rituals by Level (first 10 levels)
Level Ritual Key Skill
1 Animal Messenger Nature
1 Comprehend Language Arcana
1 Gentle Repose Heal
1 Magic Mouth Arcana
1 Make Whole Arcana
1 Secret Page Arcana
1 Silence Arcana
1 Tenser’s Floating Disk Arcana
2 Endure Elements Arcana or Nature
2 Eye of Alarm Arcana
2 Water Walk Nature
3 Detect Secret Doors Arcana
4 Arcane Lock Arcana
4 Enchant Magic Item Arcana
4 Hand of Fate Religion
4 Knock Arcana
4 Travelers’ Feast Nature
5 Brew Potion Arcana or Religion
5 Hallucinatory Item Arcana
5 Magic Circle Arcana
6 Commune with Nature Nature
6 Cure Disease Heal
6 Discern Lies Religion
6 Disenchant Magic Item Arcana
6 Leomund’s Secret Chest Arcana
6 Phantom Steed Arcana
6 Sending Arcana
6 Speak with Dead Religion
8 Linked Portal Arcana
8 Raise Dead Heal
8 Remove Affliction Heal
8 Water Breathing Arcana or Nature
8 Wizard’s Sight Arcana
10 Consult Mystic Sages Religion
10 Detect Object Arcana


Detect Secret Doors

With a smile and a wink, you show Soveliss the outline of the trapdoor he missed.

Level: 3
Category: Exploration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: Instantaneous
Component Cost: 25 gp
Market Price: 125 gp
Key Skill: Arcana

Make an Arcana check. Use the result as a bonus to a Perception check you immediately make to find any secret or hidden doors in your line of sight. If anyone aided you while performing this ritual, they can’t help you make the resulting Perception check.
Cure Disease

Even the most horrid affliction disappears in response to your healing touch.

Level: 6
Category: Restoration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: Instantaneous
Component Cost: 150 gp
Market Price: 360 gp
Key Skill: Heal

The Cure Disease ritual wipes away a single disease afflicting the subject, whether the disease is active or still incubating. The subject is completely cured and loses any negative side effects and symptoms of the disease.

This ritual is physically taxing to the recipient; if used on an injured character, it can even kill him or her. Upon completing this ritual, make a Heal check, using the level of the disease as a penalty to this check. The result indicates the amount of damage the character takes. Assuming the character survives, this damage can be healed normally.
Heal Check Result Effect on Target
0 or lower Death
1–9 Damage equal to the target’s maximum hit points
10–19 Damage equal to one-half of the target’s maximum hit points
20–29 Damage equal to one-quarter of the target’s maximum hit points
30 or higher No damage

If you know that your subject is suffering from multiple diseases, you must choose which one this ritual will cure. Otherwise, the ritual affects whichever single disease you knew about. You learn the disease level when you begin the ritual, and at that point you can choose not to continue, without expending any components.
Raise Dead

You bend over the body of your slain comrade, applying sacramental unguents. Finally his eyes flutter open as he is restored to life.

Level: 8
Category: Restoration
Time: 8 hours
Duration: Instantaneous
Component Cost: 500 gp
Market Price: 680 gp
Key Skill: Heal (no check)

To perform the Raise Dead ritual, you must have a part of the corpse of a creature that died no more than 30 days ago. You apply mystic salves, then pray to the gods to restore the dead creature’s life. The subject returns to life as if he or she had taken an extended rest. The subject is freed of any temporary conditions suffered at death, but permanent conditions remain.

The subject returns with a death penalty: –1 to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws, and ability checks. This death penalty fades after the subject reaches three milestones.

You can’t restore life to a creature that has been petrified or to a creature that died of old age.

The subject’s soul must be free and willing to return to life. Some magical effects trap the soul and thus prevent Raise Dead from working, and the gods can intervene to prevent a soul from journeying back to the realm of the living. In all cases, death is less inclined to return paragon and epic heroes; the component cost is 5,000 gp for paragon tier characters and 50,000 gp for epic tier characters.

Be sure to return Friday for a look at humans as monsters!


Undead Article

Excerpts: Undead
4th Edition Monster Manual

In today's Monster Manual preview, we look at undead in general... and the shambling horrors that are zombies in particular.

From the Monster Manual Glossary:

Undead: Undead are not living creatures; spells and effects that specifically target living creatures do not work against them. Most undead have resistance to necrotic damage, are immune to poison, and are vulnerable to radiant damage. Undead do not need to breathe or sleep.

* Download the Zombie PDF (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/ExcerptUndead.zip)

Zombie Preview (from the PDF):

A ZOMBIE IS THE ANIMATED CORPSE of a living creature. Imbued with the barest semblance of life, this shambling horror obeys the commands of its creator, heedless of its own wellbeing.

A typical zombie is made of the corpse of a Medium or Large creature.

Zombie Rotter Level 3 Minion
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 38
Initiative –2 Senses Perception –1; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fortitude 13, Refl ex 9, Will 10
Immune disease, poison
Speed 4
m Slam (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 14 (+2) Dex 6 (–2) Wis 8 (–1)
Con 10 (+0) Int 1 (–5) Cha 3 (–4)
Zombie Rotter Tactics
Zombie rotters swarm the nearest living target and beat it to death.

Zombie Level 2 Brute
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 125
Initiative –1 Senses Perception +0; darkvision
HP 40; Bloodied 20; see also zombie weakness
AC 13; Fortitude 13, Refl ex 9, Will 10
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant
Speed 4
mSlam (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 2d6 + 2 damage.
M Zombie Grab (standard; at-will)
+4 vs. Refl ex; the target is grabbed (until escape). Checks made
to escape the zombie’s grab take a –5 penalty.
Zombie Weakness
Any critical hit to the zombie reduces it to 0 hit points instantly.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 14 (+3) Dex 6 (–1) Wis 8 (+0)
Con 10 (+1) Int 1 (–4) Cha 3 (–3)
Zombie Tactics
When two or more zombies attack a single foe, one of them uses zombie grab to prevent the foe’s escape.

Gravehound Level 3 Brute
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 150
Initiative +2 Senses Perception +1; darkvision
HP 54; Bloodied 27; see also death jaws and zombie weakness
AC 14; Fortitude 14, Refl ex 12, Will 11
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant
Speed 8
mBite (standard; at-will) ✦ Necrotic
+7 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage, and the target takes ongoing 5
necrotic damage (save ends) and is knocked prone if it is Medium
size or smaller.
M Death Jaws (when reduced to 0 hit points) ✦ Necrotic
The gravehound makes a bite attack against a target within its
reach.
Zombie Weakness
Any critical hit to the gravehound reduces it to 0 hit points instantly.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 16 (+4) Dex 13 (+2) Wis 10 (+1)
Con 14 (+3) Int 1 (–4) Cha 3 (–3)
Gravehound Tactics
A gravehound uses its speed to overtake prey. When it dies, it makes one final bite attack against a living creature within reach.

Corruption Corpse Level 4 Artillery
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 175
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +3; darkvision
Grave Stench aura 1; living enemies in the aura take a –5 penalty to
attack rolls.
HP 46; Bloodied 23; see also death burst
Regeneration 5 (if the corruption corpse takes radiant damage,
regeneration doesn’t function on its next turn)
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Refl ex 14, Will 14
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant
Speed 4
m Slam (standard; at-will)
+8 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage.
R Mote of Corruption (standard; at-will) ✦ Necrotic
The corruption corpse hurls a black glob of necrotic fi lth. Ranged
10; +7 vs. Refl ex; 2d6 + 3 necrotic damage, and the target is
weakened (save ends).
C Death Burst (when reduced to 0 hit points) ✦ Necrotic
The corruption corpse explodes. Close burst 1; +7 vs. Fortitude;
2d6 + 3 necrotic damage.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 16 (+5) Dex 13 (+3) Wis 12 (+3)
Con 16 (+5) Int 4 (–1) Cha 3 (–2)
Corruption Corpse Tactics
The corruption corpse hurls globs of necrotic matter at living creatures until one or more living creatures close to within melee range, at which point it makes slam attacks.

Rotwing Zombie Level 4 Skirmisher
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 175
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +2; darkvision
HP 54; Bloodied 27; see also zombie weakness
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Refl ex 16, Will 14
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant
Speed 4, fl y 4 (clumsy)
mSlam (standard; at-will)
+9 vs. AC; 1d8 + 2 damage.
Flying Charge
When fl ying, the rotwing zombie deals an extra 2d6 damage on a
successful charge attack.
Zombie Weakness
Any critical hit to the rotwing zombie reduces it to 0 hit points instantly.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 14 (+4) Dex 14 (+4) Wis 10 (+2)
Con 14 (+4) Int 1 (–3) Cha 3 (–2)
Rotwing Zombie Tactics
The rotwing zombie often perches silently on a ledge or precipice. It swoops down and makes a flying charge against the nearest enemy.

Chillborn Zombie Level 6 Soldier
Medium natural animate (cold, undead) XP 250
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; darkvision
Chillborn Aura (Cold) aura 2; any creature that enters or begins its
turn in the aura takes 5 cold damage. Multiple chillborn auras
deal cumulative damage.
HP 71; Bloodied 35; see also death burst
AC 22; Fortitude 20, Refl ex 16, Will 16
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 cold, 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5
fi re, 5 radiant
Speed 4
mSlam (standard; at-will) ✦ Cold
+11 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage, and the target is immobilized until the end of the chillborn zombie’s next turn and takes ongoing 5 cold damage (save ends); see also ice reaper.
C Death Burst (when reduced to 0 hit points) ✦ Cold
The chillborn zombie explodes. Close burst 1; +9 vs. Fortitude; 2d6 + 2 cold damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).
Ice Reaper ✦ Cold
The chillborn zombie deals an extra 5 cold damage to an immobilized creature.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 19 (+7) Dex 10 (+3) Wis 10 (+3)
Con 15 (+5) Int 2 (–1) Cha 6 (+1)
Chillborn Zombie Tactics
If it succeeds in immobilizing the target with its slam attack, the chillborn zombie uses ice reaper on its next turn.

Zombie Hulk Level 8 Brute
Large natural animate (undead) XP 350
Initiative +2 Senses Perception +3; darkvision
HP 88; Bloodied 44; see also rise again
AC 20; Fortitude 23, Refl ex 17, Will 18
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 10 radiant
Speed 4
m Slam (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +12 vs. AC; 2d8 + 5 damage.
M Zombie Smash (standard; recharge ⚅ )
Reach 2; targets Medium size or smaller creature; +12 vs. AC; 4d8 + 5 damage, and the target is knocked prone.
Rise Again (the first time the zombie hulk drops to 0 hit points)
Make a new initiative check for the zombie hulk. On its next turn, the zombie hulk rises (as a move action) with 44 hit points.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 21 (+9) Dex 6 (+2) Wis 8 (+3)
Con 18 (+8) Int 1 (–1) Cha 3 (+0)
Zombie Hulk Tactics
The zombie hulk uses zombie smash on creatures smaller than itself. When it falls in battle, it doesn’t stay dead for long, rising once more to have its revenge.

Zombie Lore
The following information can be obtained with a successful Religion check.
DC 15: Most zombies are created using a foul ritual. Once roused, a zombie obeys its creator and wants nothing more than to kill and consume the living.
DC 20: Corpses left in places corrupted by supernatural energy from the Shadowfell sometimes rise as zombies on their own. These zombies have no master and generally attack all living creatures they encounter.

Encounter Groups
Zombies can be found anywhere, working with or for any creature willing to tolerate their moldering presence.

Level 4 Encounter (XP 951)
✦ 3 zombies (level 2 brute)
✦ 4 zombie rotters (level 3 minion)
✦ 4 kruthik hatchlings (level 2 minion)
✦ 2 wererats (level 3 skirmisher)

Level 8 Encounter (XP 1,750)
✦ 2 zombie hulks (level 8 brute)
✦ 2 rot scarab swarms (level 8 soldier)
✦ 1 oni night haunter (level 8 elite controller)


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080523_114889_0.jpg
(Left to right) corruption corpse, chillborn zombie, zombie hulk, gravehound, and rotwing zombie



There it all is.

FoE
2008-05-27, 11:50 PM
Oh, that wraith art is bitchin'. :smalleek: :smallamused:

Zombies look pretty interesting. They've provided some variety amongst zombies and even gave us a Minion template for zombies (I bet you that's going to see a lot of play!) I really like the gravehound and the Corruption Corpse: throwing rotting gobs of flesh seems full of win. :smallbiggrin: The rotwing zombie might put off some people, but I would point out they seem to glide rather than fly. Plus, if you're a huge fan of Army of Darkness like me, you know a good use for flying undead. :smallamused:

In other words ....

"SHEILA!"


Anyone can use a ritual scroll to perform the ritual it contains, as long as the appropriate components are expended.

Oh, that's neat. You mean my Paladin gets to perform some spells if McCleric goes down? Sweet. Looks like a good idea. I wonder if there will be an ability to transcribe rituals in a book after learning them thoroughly, however.

I can see rituals as being the basis for some adventures if you need certain rare components. I just hope they go into more detail about what the components for some of the bigger rituals are, rather than just listing how much they cost. (That will also be problematic in a wilderness quest.)

RTGoodman
2008-05-27, 11:54 PM
Wraith Picture: Awesome.

Rituals: I like how these work. The Raise Dead one's talk about "Death doesn't like to give up Paragon or Epic heroes" sound kinda silly, but I guess it at least means that constant resurrection isn't as easy as 3.5. Unless, of course, 50,000 is a small sum - anyone know about 4E WBL stuff yet? I'd have loved to see some non-instantaneous rituals, though - water-breathing is going to be useless if it doesn't last long enough to let you stay under for any long period of time. I think someone with some early-released books mentioned the fly ritual only working for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter and that seems very short to me, but I don't know how reliable that source is.

Undead: I feel like I've seen most of those before, but I don't remember where. Maybe the Keep on the Shadowfell? I dunno. I left my copy at a friend's house, so I can't check. I like the picture a lot, though.

Chronicled
2008-05-27, 11:54 PM
I'm really liking that they aren't specifying the exact nature of performing rituals. I'm all for player/DM creativity.

I'm also amused by how many 3.x spells were converted into rituals. But did we really need Magic Mouth and Secret Page :smallwink:?

Also, having the "gods might prevent the resurrection" in there gives a handy out to DMs trying to kill off a problem character.

FoE
2008-05-27, 11:58 PM
I'm also amused by how many 3.x spells were converted into rituals. But did we really need Magic Mouth and Secret Page :smallwink:?

Those will be the real cheap rituals. They'll practically hand them out on street corners. :smalltongue:

EvilRoeSlade
2008-05-28, 12:06 AM
A pretty big change, going from critical hits having no effect on undead, to critical hits instantly slaying undead. I say it's a step in the right direction.

Mewtarthio
2008-05-28, 12:09 AM
Rituals: I like how these work. The Raise Dead one's talk about "Death doesn't like to give up Paragon or Epic heroes" sound kinda silly, but I guess it at least means that constant resurrection isn't as easy as 3.5. Unless, of course, 50,000 is a small sum - anyone know about 4E WBL stuff yet?

The heroic-tier prices are in "You and Your Magic Items" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080516a). 5,000 gp is enough to buy a single high-level heroic magic item. Assuming the pattern keeps up, a high-level paragon magic item would cost 20,000 gp.

That seems wrong, somehow. It's somewhat costly for heroic characters to come back from the dead, cheap for paragon characters, and ridiculously expensive for epic characters (50,000 gp is slightly above the cost of a level 25 magic item, assuming I do my math right). Then again, it does take a lot to kill an epic character, and they've probably got lots of followers to chip in the cash if necessary.


I'd have loved to see some non-instantaneous rituals, though - water-breathing is going to be useless if it doesn't last long enough to let you stay under for any long period of time. I think someone with some early-released books mentioned the fly ritual only working for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter and that seems very short to me, but I don't know how reliable that source is.

I'm guessing the water breathing ritual gives you at least an hour of water breathing time (probably based on the result of your skill check). The flight you described sounds more like a power to me.

And is anyone else intrigued by the idea of diseased having levels? I like that you finally don't have to make every disease a magical curse if you want it to be plot-relevant.

Cuddly
2008-05-28, 12:32 AM
I like the rituals. That wraith art looks retarded.

But how do you decide to blow 150 gp and 10 minutes to make a single search check for something you don't know is there?

Rockphed
2008-05-28, 12:37 AM
I like the rituals. That wraith art looks retarded.

But how do you decide to blow 150 gp and 10 minutes to make a single search check for something you don't know is there?

If you are in a dungeon, There is Always a Secret Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html)

Abardam
2008-05-28, 12:57 AM
Be sure to return Friday for a look at humans as monsters!Man is the true monster!

That said, rituals are looking pretty boss. It seems like they took all the utility spells out and turned them into rituals. This is a good thing, as now everyone can be balanced for combat.

TSGames
2008-05-28, 12:58 AM
Zombie Lore
The following information can be obtained with a successful Religion check.
DC 15: Most zombies are created using a foul ritual. Once roused, a zombie obeys its creator and wants nothing more than to kill and consume the living.
DC 20: Corpses left in places corrupted by supernatural energy from the Shadowfell sometimes rise as zombies on their own. These zombies have no master and generally attack all living creatures they encounter.


I don't understand why they are "unaligned" and not some type of evil... I mean, they clearly eat babies with glee if given the chance.

O well, if there's one thing I trust Wizards to blow at, it's fluff, followed closely by world design. I'm not really complaining because these are easy to disregard: it's just that it makes me question WotC's choice in people for the 4e project...

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 01:07 AM
I don't understand why they are "unaligned" and not some type of evil... I mean, they clearly eat babies with glee if given the chance.

O well, if there's one thing I trust Wizards to blow at, it's fluff, followed closely by world design. I'm not really complaining because these are easy to disregard: it's just that it makes me question WotC's choice in people for the 4e project...

Zombies are mindless, basically. To have an alignment you need to be able to understand the concept, at least. Zombies just think babies are delicious, and frankly, I'd agree.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-28, 01:12 AM
I was about to say the same thing. Zombies are not evil. They are like animals and just do what is in their nature.

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 02:18 AM
Rituals are interesting but they must have changed the raise dead ritual because there is nothing in it that says it works only on heroes/"People with a destiny" like they said . Actually by the "Death doesn't like to give up Paragon or Epic heroes" line to raise a commoner should even be cheaper. "oh, it is just a peasant, give me 50 bucks and we are even" :)

Also, you only need a piece of the corpse? I understand they want make life easy for the adventurers, but they are pushing it a little too much.
"Jack is dead, we are wounded, kobolds are coming, cut out his ear and let go" not before they grabbed Jack's magic items of course :)
OTOH I like that you need 8 hours to cast it, at least being dead is actually a little worse than being wounded.


A pretty big change, going from critical hits having no effect on undead, to critical hits instantly slaying undead. I say it's a step in the right direction.

yes, for zombies it is, for wraith and mumies could be a little overkill.

On a partially unrelated note, I think that for minions I'd have liked better a mechanic like "they die if, and only if, they take X or more damage in one hit, with ongoing damage added to every hit damage" than just giving them 1 hit point.


I think someone with some early-released books mentioned the fly ritual only working for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter and that seems very short to me, but I don't know how reliable that source is.

No, that was a daily power, not a ritual.

FoE
2008-05-28, 02:32 AM
On a partially unrelated note, I think that for minions I'd have liked better a mechanic like "they die if, and only if, they take X or more damage in one hit, with ongoing damage added to every hit damage" than just giving them 1 hit point.

There's plenty of arguing to be done over minions in the three or four other threads dedicated to the subject. Just move along there, buddy ... no need to drag this debate into every thread on the forum. :smalltongue:


That wraith art looks retarded.

Well ... umm ... I think your ... brain ... looks retarded. Oh snap! :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, to each his own. But I thought it looked cool.

Quellian-dyrae
2008-05-28, 03:17 AM
I do love that getting resurrected no longer removes levels. I like keeping the party all nice and even. Detect Secret Doors seems nigh useless; if you're spending that much gold and time, you are probably pretty well sure the secret door is there, at which point you are better off trying to find out how to open it rather than just trying to detect it. Regarding Cure Disease...I see what they are trying to do, but I think that simply requiring a check to succeed, modified as they did by the level of the disease, would be sufficient to make sure diseases aren't simply ignored the way they were in 3e. Maybe increase the component cost based on the disease's level. But when you run the risk of death to purge a case of the sniffles...

Cure Disease: 150 gp.
Raise Dead: 500 gp.
Ritual Books: 1,040 gp.
"Hey, remember that time you healed me to death?": Priceless.

I just hope they don't eventually introduce something that can make it possible to cast rituals in combat. I can see Cure Disease becoming the most powerful combat spell in the game in short order ("So you can get a no-save-just-die spell at 6th level, but you have to be a 16th level wizard just to fly for five minutes a day?") Even as it stands, it might be worth it if you can get the timing just right...

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 03:56 AM
I do love that getting resurrected no longer removes levels. I like keeping the party all nice and even. Detect Secret Doors seems nigh useless; if you're spending that much gold and time, you are probably pretty well sure the secret door is there, at which point you are better off trying to find out how to open it rather than just trying to detect it. Regarding Cure Disease...I see what they are trying to do, but I think that simply requiring a check to succeed, modified as they did by the level of the disease, would be sufficient to make sure diseases aren't simply ignored the way they were in 3e. Maybe increase the component cost based on the disease's level. But when you run the risk of death to purge a case of the sniffles...

Cure Disease: 150 gp.
Raise Dead: 500 gp.
Ritual Books: 1,040 gp.
"Hey, remember that time you healed me to death?": Priceless.


It depends on what exactly the diseases do, beside you die only on a zero or less, and you have a +3 bonus minimum for your level, a + 5 because you are probably trained in the skill, probably some other bonus from your stats, and minimum 1 from the dice, you can heal until level 10 diseases without serious risks of death, (unless you are already bloodied, then you still have a 50% chance)

bosssmiley
2008-05-28, 03:59 AM
So 'rituals' = 'anything from the 3rd Ed spell lists that's not a combat spell'? Colour me indifferent.

I like the zombified everythings though. One can never have enough hungry shambling corpses IMO.


"Zombie rotters swarm the nearest living target and beat it to death."

Zombie rotters. These guys sound like something from"Goodbye Mr Chips" or "Tom Brown's Schooldays"...albeit a version gone horribly, horribly wrong.

"I say Jenkins. Those foul-smelling oiks have taken a bite out of Bunter!" :smallbiggrin:

^-- I would play this game in a flash. Hmmmm...
(*roots about for old copies of "All Flesh" and "School Daze"*)

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 04:14 AM
So 'rituals' = 'anything from the 3rd Ed spell lists that's not a combat spell'? Colour me indifferent.


Well, they *could* have given a little more emphasis on material components, with at least some option for weird and unusual components for some ritual . At the moment for any pratical concern the only material component seems to be gold.

And apparently now everyone can use raise dead(edit: as long as they have the right feat). kinda disappointing, at least for me.

Wait a minute, a scroll cost as much as a book? What is the point? You pay the same for a scroll that let you cast a ritual one time and for a book that let you cast the ritual as many times as you want? there must be a mistake.

[edit] Oh, yeah, now I remember, you need a feat to cast rituals, but presumibily you don't need one to use a scroll, it make more sense then.

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 04:41 AM
Level
Each ritual has a level. You have to be that level or higher to perform the ritual from a book or to copy it.

Looks like this explains the priest in Fallcrest. He's not high enough level to copy some rituals into his book, so he can't cast them willy-nilly, but he has the scrolls for them.

warmachine
2008-05-28, 04:57 AM
I wanna know what are the milestones to erase the death penalty?

Also, I love the Corruption Corpse. Lobbing putrid flesh! Real horrorshow! Much better horror atmosphere than 3e.

Dhavaer
2008-05-28, 05:04 AM
I wanna know what are the milestones to erase the death penalty?

I think you get one every two encounters, but I'm not sure.

Morty
2008-05-28, 06:16 AM
So, rituals are used for all spells that don't fit power progression. Fine by me, at least wizards do something more than throw fireballs and clerics more than whack people with mace to heal their allies. The components seem oversimplified, though.
The undead don't look too bad either. I wonder if PCs will get the option to make some themselves, though. One of the most daring plans my group ever entacted involved raising a zombie to distract the guards.

Sebastian
2008-05-28, 06:42 AM
So, rituals are used for all spells that don't fit power progression. Fine by me, at least wizards do something more than throw fireballs and clerics more than whack people with mace to heal their allies. The components seem oversimplified, though.

More than Wizards and Clerics I'd say Everyone with the ritual casting feat, because don't look like there will be many differentation by class.

The only thing that make class different from each other is what they do in combat, apparently.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 06:44 AM
I'm also amused by how many 3.x spells were converted into rituals. But did we really need Magic Mouth and Secret Page :smallwink:?

As far as I'm concerned, yes, we really need those. It wouldn't be a magical world if you couldn't enchant it with magical parlor tricks.

It's funny how an untrained medic can try to cure somebody's flu, and end up killing him instead. Medicine is no art for the untrained :smalltongue:

Morty
2008-05-28, 06:47 AM
More than Wizards and Clerics I'd say Everyone with the ritual casting feat, because don't look like there will be many differentation by class.

You also need training in the appropriate skill though. So for example fighters would need to multiclass to use many of the rituals.


It's funny how an untrained medic can try to cure somebody's flu, and end up killing him instead.

It'd be so hilarious I just have to try and do it in one session. Killing someone while trying to cure him fits my gaming group perfectly

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 07:06 AM
The components seem oversimplified, though.

I think I'd like to see some rituals with no expendable costs, just lasting focuses if you insist on making them cost something. There are plenty of effects where the long casting time is about as much limit as is needed. The real limit on Knock, for example, is that you now can't do it in the one-minute window in the guard's patrol pattern - if you can't take the time to sit down and start incanting for minutes on end, you still need the rogue.

I also like that rituals like Detect Secret Doors - and, by extension, I'm assuming Knock and the like as well - are no longer auto-successes but just boosts to your skill check - and you still need to use a skill you likely won't have trained. Rogues with a Wizard multiclass feat and Ritual Casting should make pretty sweet archaeologists, though...

Arioch
2008-05-28, 07:10 AM
Yay, they finally made mindless undead unaligned. This was one of my major peeves with 3rd-edition fluff. Glad to see they've fixed it.

Love the wraith art, rituals look interesting.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-28, 07:10 AM
I like the zombified everythings though. One can never have enough hungry shambling corpses IMO.


"Zombie rotters swarm the nearest living target and beat it to death."

Zombie rotters. These guys sound like something from"Goodbye Mr Chips" or "Tom Brown's Schooldays"...albeit a version gone horribly, horribly wrong.

"I say Jenkins. Those foul-smelling oiks have taken a bite out of Bunter!" :smallbiggrin:

^-- I would play this game in a flash. Hmmmm...
(*roots about for old copies of "All Flesh" and "School Daze"*)

Run this as PbP. The Illuminati will accept no less. :smallbiggrin:

If you look, not all the zombies have the Crit=Kill rule- only the squishier ones. I like it- after all, watch a zombie film- they're hard to put down unless you get a headshot.

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 07:12 AM
That's my favorite change in 4th edition so far. I love the fact we're ditching "no anatomy" for "sever the brain-stem!"

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 07:20 AM
If you look, not all the zombies have the Crit=Kill rule- only the squishier ones. I like it- after all, watch a zombie film- they're hard to put down unless you get a headshot.

Which begs the question - are there powers or items that enhance your chance for a critical? Or is it just a flat 5%?

Oslecamo
2008-05-28, 07:21 AM
Yay, they finally made mindless undead unaligned. This was one of my major peeves with 3rd-edition fluff. Glad to see they've fixed it.

Love the wraith art, rituals look interesting.

Actually, zombies were true neutral in 3.0, and then for some reason they became evil in 3.5.

Notice that they have int and con also.

I find specially amusing that zombies can be 1 hit KO, but other monsters not. What hapened to choping off that dragon's head in one strike?

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-28, 07:25 AM
Chopping off a Dragon's head in one strike is possible, if you're a total badass. If you have a crazily high damage potential, you can one-shot a Dragon. A Halfling Wizard with a brick could one-shot a zombie, because all you need is to hit in the right place and knock the head off.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 07:45 AM
Chopping off a Dragon's head in one strike is possible, if you're a total badass.

I'd like to see what the CharOp boards come up with, but given that dragons can have up to a thousand hit points, and that damage levels have been decreased overall (level-15 sneak attack does 3d6 rather than 8d6; meteor swarm does 8d6 rather than 32d6, and so forth) signs point to "no".

Oslecamo
2008-05-28, 08:08 AM
Chopping off a Dragon's head in one strike is possible, if you're a total badass. If you have a crazily high damage potential, you can one-shot a Dragon. A Halfling Wizard with a brick could one-shot a zombie, because all you need is to hit in the right place and knock the head off.

Well, true zombies should be able to get their heads choped off and keep moving.

After all, for what do they need their heads again? The eyes and brains have roten away long ago.

Like said by wotc themselves, the headshot zombie thingy comes from recent movies and games, specially resident evil, where zombies aren't corspes animated by magic, but some kind of strange disease, where the zombie isn't really dead.

What hapened to the necro pupets, where the necromancer uses his magic to make bodies dance at his rythm, and if a random piece falls off, the rest keeps moving just fine?

SurlySeraph
2008-05-28, 08:13 AM
My respect for 4E just went up. The rituals are really good, and the zombies are decent, and none of the fluff is annoying.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 09:23 AM
humm... making a goblin out of trickery is a ritual... does this mean that combat illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html)are a thing of the past?

Jarlax
2008-05-28, 09:26 AM
Yay, they finally made mindless undead unaligned. This was one of my major peeves with 3rd-edition fluff. Glad to see they've fixed it.

the problem with all this being that certain spells and abilities once again do not affect undead. anything that targets "evil" like smites, detects and the like once again ignore undead just like in 3.0

giving undead an evil alignment wasn't fluff. it was a mechanical element designed to allow powers that target evil to affect undead (being inherently evil by the magic that raised them, even if they don't have a mind).

being mindless they should be NN in alignment (just like animals and anything with 0 int) but Evil by nature (just like the spell that raised them). since 3e did not have a way of making this distinction between alignment and nature they needed to be slotted into NE.

hopefully there are not too many powers in 4 that target evil, or there are going to be a lot of PCs with powers that only work on the necromancer and not the horde of undead that he raised and commands.

Morty
2008-05-28, 09:33 AM
hopefully there are not too many powers in 4 that target evil, or there are going to be a lot of PCs with powers that only work on the necromancer and not the horde of undead that he raised and commands.

Actually, as far as I know, there are precisely no effects based on alignment in 4ed, which is one of the best thing about this edition.

Jarlax
2008-05-28, 09:40 AM
Actually, as far as I know, there are precisely no effects based on alignment in 4ed, which is one of the best thing about this edition.

i would expect at least some preist/paladin powers to affect evil but we shall see.

in the meantime the zombie hulk is super awesome and the first time it uses its rise again power on my party they are going to S4!t themselves :smallsmile:. and that makes me a happy DM.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:44 AM
Hmm... It mentions that Rituals are specifically not to fly over the battlefield.

Are the days of three dimensional combat over?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-28, 09:48 AM
Actually, as far as I know, there are precisely no effects based on alignment in 4ed, which is one of the best thing about this edition.

We have been shown one paladin power so far that does care about the alignment of its targets.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 09:52 AM
Hmm... It mentions that Rituals are specifically not to fly over the battlefield.

Are the days of three dimensional combat over?

Given the apparant lack of things which allow PC's to fly... I'm thinking that if they are not over, they are getting close to it.

Of course, that makes things much easier for WotC to program it's online system...

Morty
2008-05-28, 09:52 AM
We have been shown one paladin power so far that does care about the alignment of its targets.

Which one is that? I must've missed it

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-28, 09:53 AM
I love the cure disease ritual being able to kill the target. It opens up a world of plot points that were not supported in the mechanics before. For instance:

This disease is beyond my means to cure. We need to take him to the High Elf.

If we don't get to civilization by 3 days, Jorrel will die of malaria!

I've never seen a disease spread this fast! We don't have enough skilled healers to save them all!

etc.

FinalJustice
2008-05-28, 10:22 AM
"...but House, if you are wrong (OOC Note: thus failing the Heal Check) you will kill this man!"

Bryn
2008-05-28, 10:50 AM
Hmm... It mentions that Rituals are specifically not to fly over the battlefield.

Are the days of three dimensional combat over?

Given the apparant lack of things which allow PC's to fly... I'm thinking that if they are not over, they are getting close to it.

Of course, that makes things much easier for WotC to program it's online system...

What? I am certain that a flight power has been mentioned in another thread, although it was much higher level than the current Fly spell; however, I don't think it lasted very long; I am sure I remember reading a post stating that it lasted to the end of the encounter or for five minutes depending on which came first, or something to that effect.

A quick check of EN World's info page finds loads of about four :smallredface: examples of the words 'fly' and 'flight'. For example, it mentions that Flying Carpets are an 18th level item, that certain monsters can fly, and that the Wizard's staff is used for flight.
A few examples (although this isn't all that conclusive)

"we're designing the game to encourage, even mandate movement from one place to another. More powers that reward movement, more short-range teleportation/flight, more powers that involuntarily move enemies...these all get us away from the static fights that 3E encouraged."

staff for forcefully projected powers as well as flight and telekinisis;

The half-elf rogue "smashed a harpy out of the sky and into a chasm by using a power that knocks the target prone; when the harpy tried to fly out of the pit, the aftereffects of the power knocked her down again and she fell to her death."

Don't know if it's OK to drop a flying carpet into the hands of your 9th-level PCs? Well, the fact that the carpet's listed as an 18th-level item should clue you in that it'd have an enormous impact on your 9th-level game."

I'll add any evidence I see, since that's not all that strong, but I don't think morepig-ing (thanks for finding that one, Reel On Love :smallbiggrin:) is appropriate in this case.

LoopyZebra
2008-05-28, 10:55 AM
Which one is that? I must've missed it

Somewhere in this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=396755&page=1) they found one instance of an alignment based Paladin power, though it's not specified if that's the only one. Not sure what page, it was somewhere in the middle I think. Essentially, it had a special effect that kicked in against evil critters. Not too hard to houserule around, though.

FoE
2008-05-28, 11:00 AM
Concerning undead, although they switch their alignment to "unaligned," they made them vulnerable to crits. So it evens out.

And it sort of makes sense. Zombies aren't evil; their masters are. Even 'wild' zombies are nothing more than really slow, festering predators.

@V: True, true. I forgot about that.

Kupi
2008-05-28, 11:45 AM
Concerning undead, although they switch their alignment to "unaligned," they made them vulnerable to crits. So it evens out.

And it sort of makes sense. Zombies aren't evil; their masters are. Even 'wild' zombies are nothing more than really slow, festering predators.

It's worth noting that one of the first things they point out about zombies and other undead is that they're "vulnerable to Radiant damage". Your primary generators of Radiant damage are Paladins and Clerics. So, while zombies might not be uniquely susceptible to Smite Evil, you're still going to want a Paladin or a Cleric along to help clear them out.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-28, 12:11 PM
Vulnerable 5, it says- which I assume means they take 5 extra damage from radiant attacks?

kc0bbq
2008-05-28, 12:13 PM
I think you get one every two encounters, but I'm not sure.You get a milestone every two encounters completed without taking an extended rest, i.e. action points are awarded at milestones.

You can have the penalty over the course of 18 levels if you never do more than one encounter a day.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 12:16 PM
What? I am certain that a flight power has been mentioned in another thread, although it was much higher level than the current Fly spell; however, I don't think it lasted very long; I am sure I remember reading a post stating that it lasted to the end of the encounter or for five minutes depending on which came first, or something to that effect.

A quick check of EN World's info page finds loads of about four :smallredface: examples of the words 'fly' and 'flight'. For example, it mentions that Flying Carpets are an 18th level item, that certain monsters can fly, and that the Wizard's staff is used for flight.
A few examples (although this isn't all that conclusive)
[spoiler]

Here's the thing though, from what I read about the power it is a daily power that grants flight is where the problems begin. i.e. the mage can, for one flight, make one PC fly (or perhaps only himself, I'mnot sure). This means that most of the party is going to be, literally, left in the dust for that encounter with a flying monster. That creats a bunch of crappy choices for the DM and will probably discourage 3d battles as a result.

[QUOTE=Kupi;4382732]It's worth noting that one of the first things they point out about zombies and other undead is that they're "vulnerable to Radiant damage". Your primary generators of Radiant damage are Paladins and Clerics. So, while zombies might not be uniquely susceptible to Smite Evil, you're still going to want a Paladin or a Cleric along to help clear them out.


Going by KoS, clerics still have turn/rebuke also...

Morty
2008-05-28, 12:45 PM
This means that most of the party is going to be, literally, left in the dust for that encounter with a flying monster. That creats a bunch of crappy choices for the DM and will probably discourage 3d battles as a result.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are always ranged attacks and opportunity attacks.


Going by KoS, clerics still have turn/rebuke also...

I'm actually a tad worried that clerics are now holy by default. What happens to negative energy(necrotic in 4ed) clerics?

Bryn
2008-05-28, 01:26 PM
Ah, fair enough, sorry if I sounded aggressive as well. I guess I just misunderstood your post (also sorry to accuse you of morepig)... :smallamused:

On the other hand, in 3e, if you happen to meet a flying monster, the Wizard will need to spend four rounds buffing their comrades, or have a few people fly off and fight in the same way... Then again, it may very well be that most classes have a daily flight power, in which case flying encounters are easy enough as a rarity; which is what they were before. Even so, I understand what you are saying, and flying encounters probably will be more rare than before.

On the other hand, this does avoid the whole 'flying wizard makes everyone useless' factor and limits Batman to a degree, since he can't reliably make himself untouchable to melee classes anymore.

Judging by one of the ENWorld quotes, it seems that flying monsters can be limited by powers, for example the rogue dropping the Harpy into the pit using a 'knock prone' power. That means the party can still be useful, but as you said it makes fights less 3-dimensional.

To me, the issue isn't important enough to worry about, or to houserule when I get 4th edition. Each to their own, I guess. :smallsmile:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 01:33 PM
I'm actually a tad worried that clerics are now holy by default. What happens to negative energy(necrotic in 4ed) clerics?

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll be in the 4e equivalent of the Complete Divine. :tongue:

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-28, 02:41 PM
Wraith Picture: Awesome.

Rituals: I like how these work. The Raise Dead one's talk about "Death doesn't like to give up Paragon or Epic heroes" sound kinda silly, but I guess it at least means that constant resurrection isn't as easy as 3.5. Unless, of course, 50,000 is a small sum - anyone know about 4E WBL stuff yet? I'd have loved to see some non-instantaneous rituals, though - water-breathing is going to be useless if it doesn't last long enough to let you stay under for any long period of time. I think someone with some early-released books mentioned the fly ritual only working for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter and that seems very short to me, but I don't know how reliable that source is.

Undead: I feel like I've seen most of those before, but I don't remember where. Maybe the Keep on the Shadowfell? I dunno. I left my copy at a friend's house, so I can't check. I like the picture a lot, though.

Depending on the result of the Arcana skill check water breathing last from 1 to 24 hours and there's no flight ritual, its a paragon level daily power.

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-28, 02:58 PM
I suspect some rules for evil clerics will be provided. If all else fails, just let your players change their damage to necrotic instead of radiant. Quick, dirty and effective house rule.

kc0bbq
2008-05-28, 03:29 PM
Depending on the result of the Arcana skill check water breathing last from 1 to 24 hours and there's no flight ritual, its a paragon level daily power.Phantom Steed is your flight ritual. With a 40 Arcana check you get 8 horses that have fly 20.

With 4 helpers you can get there by taking 10 on the Arcana check if you really focus on Arcana and start with an 18 int, pretty easy with an eladrin.

10 (take 10) + 7 (level/2) + 5 (trained) + 3 (focus) + 2 (eladrin racial) + 6 (22 int) + 8 (4 helpers getting 10 on their checks) = 41. Even with +8 from the helpers you *could* do it at the minimum level for the ritual of 12 if you bit the bullet and started with 19 int.

It's a strange thing to think about optimizing for. :P


I suspect some rules for evil clerics will be provided. If all else fails, just let your players change their damage to necrotic instead of radiant. Quick, dirty and effective house rule.
That's exactly what is suggested in the DMG as a way to handle it, with the addition of altering the visuals to something appropriate.

Zocelot
2008-05-28, 03:31 PM
I can't help but notice that the highest level zombie was only level 8. I hope that this was Wizards voluntarily withholding information.

I hate in 3.5 how class abilities and spells go up to level 20, but monsters stop at about level 10. Especially with the difficulty of advancing monsters in 4e, this can definitely be a problem.

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 03:36 PM
I hate in 3.5 how class abilities and spells go up to level 20, but monsters stop at about level 10. Especially with the difficulty of advancing monsters in 4e, this can definitely be a problem.

...eyebrow?

I don't follow. There are plenty of monsters above CR 10, and it's relatively straightforward to make enemies of any CR via class-leveling a humanoid...

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 03:40 PM
start with an 18 int, pretty easy with an eladrin.

...or a human... :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2008-05-28, 03:45 PM
I can't help but notice that the highest level zombie was only level 8. I hope that this was Wizards voluntarily withholding information.

I hate in 3.5 how class abilities and spells go up to level 20, but monsters stop at about level 10. Especially with the difficulty of advancing monsters in 4e, this can definitely be a problem.

Zombifying any 4E creature in two easy steps:
Change type to Natural Animate (Undead.)
Add Resist Necrotic and Vulnerability Radiant.

Optional additions:
Add Zombie Weakness, add Necrotic to attack damage types, give it a neat on-death effect.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-28, 04:29 PM
Phantom Steed is your flight ritual. With a 40 Arcana check you get 8 horses that have fly 20.

With 4 helpers you can get there by taking 10 on the Arcana check if you really focus on Arcana and start with an 18 int, pretty easy with an eladrin.

10 (take 10) + 7 (level/2) + 5 (trained) + 3 (focus) + 2 (eladrin racial) + 6 (22 int) + 8 (4 helpers getting 10 on their checks) = 41. Even with +8 from the helpers you *could* do it at the minimum level for the ritual of 12 if you bit the bullet and started with 19 int.


Unless a ritual’s description says otherwise, you make your skill check when you finish performing a ritual. You can’t take 10 on one of these skill checks.

Is Phantom Steed one of the exceptions to that rule?

kc0bbq
2008-05-28, 05:44 PM
Is Phantom Steed one of the exceptions to that rule?
No, you're right, I skipped a paragraph and screwed it up.

The game does seem to have a handle on ramping up mobility with level, but when we're all used to being able to go whereever at whatever level it does seem a little rough.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-28, 07:36 PM
Zombifying any 4E creature in two easy steps:
Change type to Natural Animate (Undead.)
Add Resist Necrotic and Vulnerability Radiant.

Optional additions:
Add Zombie Weakness, add Necrotic to attack damage types, give it a neat on-death effect.

Not all Zombie have that weakness.
Zombie Hulk, for instance, lacks a weakness to Crit.
Chillborn also had its weakness to Crit removed (in Mini's stat card it had weakness).

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-29, 05:14 AM
Hence "Optional Additions."

centauri
2008-05-29, 07:50 AM
There's something of a hubbub in some circles about how golems are neutral and zombies and skeletons are neutral evil. Both, the argument goes, are mindless and only do what their masters tell them, so why are undead evil and golems not? Of course, the main answer, as mentioned above, is to make certain spells and abilities, but I have long thought that it gave a clue how to run the creatures. Given the same order, say to keep a group of prisoners from escaping, a golem would follow it in a relatively harmless manner, whereas a skeleton would take an evil path, say by simply slaughtering the prisoners.

Ironically, for all that they're "unaligned" now, the flavor text for the new zombies seems to make them more evil. It used to be that

A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative.
but now
Once roused, a zombie obeys its creator and wants nothing more than to kill and consume the living.
That's not the same "drawing conclusions" and "taking initiative" and I'm comparing skeletons to zombies, but anyone who professes to be good and creates an "unaligned" undead had best keep close watch on their creation, lest it find a way to perpetrate evil in service to them. Alignment may not mean as much in this edition, but I hope this means that it will no longer seem heroic to anyone to save a village by animating its departed elders.

Oslecamo
2008-05-29, 08:16 AM
Didn't you get the memo? 4e takes a much diferent aproach to alignment than other editions:

Lawfull good-you kill stuff because you think it's right.

Good-You kill stuff because you are geting something usefull from it.

Neutral-Any excuse is good for killing stuff.

Evil-You purposedly cripple some of your allies so they will die in one hit, you have dedicated your whole existence to kill or be killed. Everybody around you is either a companion in arms or something to be killed. Sometimes you'll criple youserlf so you will die in one hit, even if you're a veteran legionair of the evil forces.

Chaotic evil-like evil, but you're uglier and more fanatic.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-29, 01:54 PM
@^: Dungeons and Dragons has always been, fundamentally, a game about killing people and taking their stuff. Why complain that they're being more upfront/angsty/GRIMDARK about it now?

Draz74
2008-05-29, 02:20 PM
I can't help but notice that the highest level zombie was only level 8. I hope that this was Wizards voluntarily withholding information.

I hate in 3.5 how class abilities and spells go up to level 20, but monsters stop at about level 10. Especially with the difficulty of advancing monsters in 4e, this can definitely be a problem.
Well, I think it wasn't "voluntarily withholding information." They have mentioned on a number of occasions assigning types of monsters to a Tier of the game. Orcs are Heroic Tier foes. Kobolds are Heroic Tier foes. Apparently zombies are too.

The upshot is, this does mean you will have foes that are specifically designed for "after Level 10" play (or even "after Level 20"). Drow and giants, for example, are Paragon Tier foes. So hopefully you won't feel too much like the MM ends after Level 10.

Of course, they're not wholly consistent about things. Ogres, for example, seem to span the border between Heroic and Paragon play by themselves. And dragons are supposed to be useful throughout a whole 1-30 campaign.


Chaotic evil-like evil, but you're uglier and more fanatic.
QFT.

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-29, 03:17 PM
QFT.


Not quite. The Archons are Chaotic Evil, for instance, and are quite beautiful to behold.

FoE
2008-05-29, 11:32 PM
I was looking at the Raise Dead ritual again, trying to wrap my head around this whole "you need only a part of the body" clause. I noted that the resurrected subject is treated as though they had an extended rest, and while temporary conditions may be erased, permanent conditions will remain in place. I would treat "not having legs anymore" or "being a severed head" as a permanent condition. :smalltongue: