Why hasn't Xykon justify his evil as good like other tyrants?

[paladinofshojo]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?) Anyway, why hasn't Xykon showed this hyppocratic mentality that he is working for the "greater good" and "the ends justify the means"?

[DBJack]

Because he likes to be bad, maybe?:smallbiggrin:

[Edea]

Because his thought process is about as deep as a pigeon's.

[The Extinguisher]

Because Xykon is not a tyrannt.

He wouldn't touch Lawful with a ten foot laser pole.

[Xefas]

Why would anyone do that in a world where you can get a 1st level Cleric to cast Detect Evil on you to objectively identify you as evil?

I suppose you could say that the world would be better off evil, or being ruled by evil, but 3rd edition is defaulted to a black/white objective morality system.

[Behold_the_Void]

Xykon's chaotic evil and he knows it. He revels in the suffering of others and is generally kind of a prick. He doesn't care what others think, so long as they do what he tells them to do.

[NikkTheTrick]

Because Xykon is Evil and is proud of it. See Start of Darkness for details.

[Querzis]

Look, if there is one thing Xykon aint, its an hypocrite. I mean he even wink when he tell a lie to someone! But seriously, why would you expect him to justify his actions? People only think 'the ends justify the means' if they have some kind of cause or a goal to explain their evil acts. Xykon is just bored and he like killing, especially since, now that hes a lich and cant eat or drink coffe anymore, thats pretty much the only things that make him laugh. Beside, Xykon is no tyrant, hes an evil superpower. He doesnt really want to rule anything.

In other words, dont expect chaotic evil people to justify their actions or even care about being called evil. They do evil things because they like it. Only lawfull evil people feel the needs to explain their actions, no matter how stupid or screwed up their explanation actually is. Thats why I would prefer being killed by Chaotic evil people like Xykon then Lawfull evil people like Redcloak, at least I dont have to hear about their motivations for killing me and my family in cold blood. «Yeah great, you want to exterminate all the other races to create everlasting peace and you dont think you are evil since we are just going to our respective afterlife. But can I just go get killed by the pyromaniac who throw fireballs everywhere while laughing gleefully before you start talking about your sad childhood?»

[Remirach]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?) Anyway, why hasn't Xykon showed this hyppocratic mentality that he is working for the "greater good" and "the ends justify the means"?
Where did the "anyone" come from? That's OFTEN the case, especially with quasi-sympathetic villains, but it's not at all uncommon to encounter fictional tyrants or would-be tyrants who are just in it for the perks that go along with ultimate power. It's only characters who have a stigma against doing evil that try to justify themselves. As far as tropes go, Xykon's easily a Card Carrying Villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardCarryingVillain) -- not only does he know he's evil and make no attempt whatsoever to justify it, he LIKES being perceived that way.

[EvilJames]

Xykon feels no need to justify his behavior, because he just doesn't care. He doesn't want to make the world a better place. He doesn't really even want to make his enemies pay. He wants to conquer the world solely because it is the most evil thing he can think of to do at the moment. That's what he wants his legacy to be. That's his goal. To be known as the nastiest, most vile repugnant, evil with a capital E, thing there is; who also ruled the world. He very truly is aware of what side he's on and the consequences that stem from it.

[Corwin Weber]

I think that's the crux of the matter. Xykon just likes killing, hurting and mayhem as long as he's not the victim. The only justification he needs is that he feels like doing it and he's strong enough to do it and get away with it.

There's actually a pretty strong resemblance between him and Richard from LFG. Both... like... to.... kill... things.

They don't really see much need to justify that either. (Richard's 'justifications' are almost always very tongue in cheek. Well.... erm.... they would be if he still had a tongue..... erm.... or a cheek for that matter.... well you get the idea....) They're both of them both psychopathic and sociopathic. They get off on killing and they don't see other people as 'people.' No remorse, no pity, no empathy, no real thought about the whole thing. Just satisfying their urge to hurt others.

Both characters are a source of black comedy.... but it's dark humor because if it was real, it wouldn't be funny.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Look, if there is one thing Xykon aint, its an hypocrite. I mean he even wink when he tell a lie to someone! But seriously, why would you expect him to justify his actions? People only think 'the ends justify the means' if they have some kind of cause or a goal to explain their evil acts. Xykon is just bored and he like killing, especially since, now that hes a lich and cant eat or drink coffe anymore, thats pretty much the only things that make him laugh. Beside, Xykon is no tyrant, hes an evil superpower. He doesnt really want to rule anything.

In other words, dont expect chaotic evil people to justify their actions or even care about being called evil. They do evil things because they like it. Only lawfull evil people feel the needs to explain their actions, no matter how stupid or screwed up their explanation actually is. Thats why I would prefer being killed by Chaotic evil people like Xykon then Lawfull evil people like Redcloak, at least I dont have to hear about their motivations for killing me and my family in cold blood. «Yeah great, you want to exterminate all the other races to create everlasting peace and you dont think you are evil since we are just going to our respective afterlife. But can I just go get killed by the pyromaniac who throw fireballs everywhere while laughing gleefully before you start talking about your sad childhood?»

Very enlightening, except that Xykon has specifically stated that he wants to rule all of creation.

[The Wanderer]

Very enlightening, except that Xykon has specifically stated that he wants to rule all of creation.

Technically Xykon said that he wanted to take over the world... taking it over is a whole different thing from ruling it afterwards. I don't think Xykon ever really gave any thought to what it would be like after the taking over was done, and I'm not sure if he ever has. Taking over the world is the ultimate quest, the big achievement. Sitting around and then ruling it day by day... I don't know that Xykon has ever looked that far ahead.

Also, remember how Xykon brought that up too. He said he was starting to think about his legacy, and what would be a better one than "Took over the whole damn world". It was a pretty casual, by the way sort of thing. Had Xykon never run into The Plan, I don't think he would have ever even considered trying to take over the world.

[Querzis]

Very enlightening, except that Xykon has specifically stated that he wants to rule all of creation.

What the Wanderers said but I would like to add: Xykon aint even able to rule a city or an army, he let Redcloak take care of that...and you really believe hes gonna rule the world? Yes, he want to be the most powerfull being in the world. I woudnt be surprised if he would also want to attain godhood and kill all the other gods. But hes not gonna rule anything, hes just going to be so damn powerfull that the world (and all the planes too) will belong to him. For example, we once conquered a city with our evil party in a D&D game...that just meant we could take and do everything we wanted and that everyone did what we told them to do because we were powerfull enough to pull it off, we still let nobles take care of politics and things like that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?) Anyway, why hasn't Xykon showed this hyppocratic mentality that he is working for the "greater good" and "the ends justify the means"?

Because you should never attempt to justify your actions unless you can do it honestly. The worst thing a politician, tyrant, leader, or dictator can do is provide false justifications or bs excuses for something. It makes you look like a hypocrite and you loose respect.

As for Revan, he wasn't being hypocritical or making excuses.

[King of Nowhere]

There are two reasons that can make an evildoer justify his actions. The first, typical of an evil tyrant, is that he needs the support of at least part of the population; if Hitler had said "vote me because I'm evil yadda yadda" he wouldn't have ruled Germany; he said "Jews are evil and we, good people, need to face their threat" and he was voted, and then he took power.
The second reason is that they actually believe in their justification; I think that's the case of Redcloak, or of many terrorists in the real world. The clear and distinct separatin between good and evil is not always so clear and distinct, and it may happen that a good willed person is misguided into doing evil and believing it good.
Often this can came from religious fanatism, or misguides sense of loyalty, or mistakenly believe that someone is evil and thus deserves everything you'll do to him.

Xykon is a different case; he's evil because he wants to be evil and likes it. He don't need to convince followers of his goodness, nor he seeks some good cause. He just wants to be evil. Other examples in this comic are Nale, Belkar, or Samantha.

[Kish]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?) Anyway, why hasn't Xykon showed this hyppocratic mentality that he is working for the "greater good" and "the ends justify the means"?
I seem to remember you also objecting to his having a sense of humor as departing from your evil overlord template.

Why don't you stop trying to get Xykon to fit the image in your head and observe him as he is? Xykon hasn't shown that mentality because it's not him.

[Niknokitueu]

Xykon feels no need to justify his behavior, because he just doesn't care.
This is the crux of the truth. Xykon really doesn't give a damn.

He wants to conquer the world. Why? Because it is there. He has no dreams of ruling it afterwards.

He does Evil. Why? Because he can. He has Fun, where his definition of 'fun' is whatever he says it is at the time.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Kato]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?) Anyway, why hasn't Xykon showed this hyppocratic mentality that he is working for the "greater good" and "the ends justify the means"?

Hm... there are some things about your statement I don't like...
But let's begin with the real question, then my added notes.

As often said already... Xykon gives a f*** of he's considered evil. He likes to hurt people, he likes to kill. There's noone he really cares about (maybe a sparkle for RC, because they were companions for so long) and he just wants to have fun. And hurting other's is fun. And the power you have, the more you can hurt other's. Also he feels himself superior to most beings, so he has no need for excuses or reasonings, for his actions, because there's noone to punish him. Why should he justify, what he doesn't want/need to?


So, about the other facts. First: Not all the evil tyrants/ evil people consider their actions good. (Though, those who don't are mostly some screwed up cartoon freaks, trying to either kill everything or undo creation or such... The common evil guy just seeks himself to gain power, and thinks it necessary for people to suffer, for him to reach this. They don't take pleasure in other's suffering, as Xykon does.) I like those more, which have a reason, and a more or less acceptable goal... I also don't like treating RC as an complete evil person. He suffered horrible losses by the hands of paladin's and the goblin races fighting humans is a tradition, as the humans fight goblins. He wants his people to live a happy life in their own nation, what's that bad about it? If humans hadn't have a nation, they'd also seek one. And revenge is an all too human trade of character. Most animes (geek-alert) especially the newer ones, but also many old ones, have villains trying to create a better world by evil means... there are great examples as DN's Light Yagami, Gundam Wing's Milliardo Peacecraft, X's Earth dragon group... to name some. Most villains in American comics or books simply search power to be rich, gain might or simply destroy.
Anyway, I also got to say one more thing, though I probably will get some evil answers. First thing: I am German, not that I'd care much, just to make the blaming easier for those, who want to ^^ Hitler is generally considered not some evil genius but more a mad man. He didn't just say, he worked for the world's greater good, to justify his actions, he was convinced, he did the right thing, by murdering Jews and sending soldier's to their death. There are other mad people in this world, we simply can be glad they are not this capable of controlling people as he was. Though, there have always been people as crazy him, he just was the most successful with his actions, so we remember him the most, sadly.

[SteveMB]

The above comments sum it up pretty well. All I can think of to add is that to someone as sociopathic as Xykon, the notion of justifying himself to others simply does not compute -- on an emotional level, the idea that other people are people just doesn't register the way it does for normal folks.

At most, he might get the idea of BSing a justification for his actions to distract an opponent or simply to amuse himself, sort of like his pretense of turning over a new leaf in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html).

[Uncle Festy]

Also, remember how Xykon brought that up too. He said he was starting to think about his legacy, and what would be a better one than "Took over the whole damn world". It was a pretty casual, by the way sort of thing. Had Xykon never run into The Plan, I don't think he would have ever even considered trying to take over the world.

Well, since he was considering it beforehand, he certainly might have tried. But without a good strategist to direct his brute force, I doubt he would have gotten far.

[Lord Iames Osari]

And finally, the reason nobody else has brought up yet:

It's funnier this way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny).

[snafu]

Anyone who fits the trope of "evil tyrant" persona had at least once tried to justify their ends with some sort of half-assed theory and excuse that the world would be better off under their heels (ex. Hitler, Darth Revan, ..:redcloak:? Need I go on?)

Darth Revan justifying things with a half-assed theory? SHE WAS RIGHT, DAMMIT! The Mandalorians were perfectly clear about why they lost the war. I remain convinced of Darth Revan's cause, but really, she could have picked some better apprentices. Malak, Arib^H^H^H^HBastila... None of these guys could get past the one-dimensional Neitzsche-wannabe. All thought 'Dark Side' had to mean 'hooligan'. If only Revan could have got Yuthura to join her... that girl had some sophistication. She and Revan could have led the Sith beyond their petty destructive feuding and shown them the true meaning of 'through victory, my chains are broken'. Ah, the lost opportunities...

(Grossly OT, but Darth Revan was so goddamn cool. I couldn't let it pass...)


Why would anyone do that in a world where you can get a 1st level Cleric to cast Detect Evil on you to objectively identify you as evil?

You just have to be creative and persuasive. "Good and evil... they're merely labels. This priest says I am evil, but see the prosperity and efficiency of my realm, and the great numbers and strength of my armies. With me you are safe from the orc raiders of the mountains. What do you care for some aged holy man's petty ritual, when the kings of their realms cannot protect you from the monsters of chaos, and I can?"

Consider real-world history. People will often put up with a lot in a ruler provided he doesn't bother them personally too much, and runs the country effectively. Never mind a priest's spell revealing a hidden evil nature; if the king is otherwise doing a good job and they themselves are safe and prosperous with full bellies, the public will turn a blind eye to the most appallingly evil actions committed quite openly.

Think of the phrase 'At least he made the trains run on time'. We've even heard stories of people in Iraq becoming nostalgic for Saddam Hussein because wicked as he was, he was better than anarchy. Evil isn't an insurmountable blemish, if you've got an otherwise sound CV.

Of course Xykon wouldn't do this because he's not that kind of villain. He's not insidious or subtle, and his goals are wholly selfish - he's after personal power more than political power. Plus, he's doing just fine as he is. Why change a winning formula?

[Wender]

Deluded evil is tragic. Self-aware evil is comic.

[Revlid]

Because he's psychotic, knows it, and doesn't care.

[Lupy]

Xykon hates lawful evil, he mocks Redcloak, remember? Xykon is CE so how he is percieved doesn't matter to him.

[Thiefree]

Because, thank God, OOTS is somewhat simpler than the real world. The concept of chaotic evil is one you'd find hard to identify in any living human!

[Pie Guy]

Because, thank God, OOTS is somewhat simpler than the real world. The concept of chaotic evil is one you'd find hard to identify in any living human!

Good thing he's a lich!:smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Because, thank God, OOTS is somewhat simpler than the real world. The concept of chaotic evil is one you'd find hard to identify in any living human!

Apart from those admittedly very rare cases of people who will beat you to death for your money, for fun or because you've got the wrong skin color.[/sarcasm]
Beside that, all I had to say about the subject has been done to death.

[Niknokitueu]

Apart from those admittedly very rare cases of people who will beat you to death for your money, for fun or because you've got the wrong skin color.[/sarcasm]
Beside that, all I had to say about the subject has been done to death.
Well, beating you to death for your money would be more CN...
Doing so for fun would be CE...
Doing so for having the wrong skin colour has historically been closer to LE.

Have Fun!*
Niknokitueu
* The good sort of fun, where everyone is happy. Not the 'rip your head off because I am bored'-sort of fun.

[Paladin29]

Sith are masters justifying their actions, but hate, fear, anger, arrogance or envy are not virtues at all.

[Morty]

Well, beating you to death for your money would be more CN...
Doing so for fun would be CE...
Doing so for having the wrong skin colour has historically been closer to LE.



I'd argue about the first one and the last one if it wasn't a start of an alignment debate. So I'll let it drop.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

I'd argue but everyone seems to have done a very good job of it already. Why would anyone question why X hasn't done something that would be completely OC for him?

[the_tick_rules]

I'm not going to read every post to see if it's been mentioned. In Start of darkness I won't say how it is revealed for spoilers sake but it is shown Xykon is simply a sociopath. He hurts people and does cruel things because he enjoys doing it. He has no "oh my mom never hugged me" or "I lost my random relative" justification. he does it because he likes it, it's just that simple.

[deworde]

Xykon is a different case; he's evil because he wants to be evil and likes it. He don't need to convince followers of his goodness, nor he seeks some good cause. He just wants to be evil. Other examples in this comic are Nale, Belkar, or Samantha.
I'm not sure you're right about Nale. He seems to be constantly justifying his behaviour with "It's revenge for [Insert-Imagined-Slight-Here]". He seems to honestly believe that his deeds are justified by others' behaviour.
Also, who's Samantha?

[Eakin]

I'm not sure you're right about Nale. He seems to be constantly justifying his behaviour with "It's revenge for [Insert-Imagined-Slight-Here]". He seems to honestly believe that his deeds are justified by others' behaviour.
Also, who's Samantha?

The sorceress bandit leader girl, I believe.

[Atmbn]

Should he?

[paladinofshojo]

Should he?

It would make him more evil if he actually tried to explain himself for the "greater good".....What kind of evil tyrant doesn't justify himself during his monolouge?

[Kish]

It would make him more evil if he actually tried to explain himself for the "greater good".....

No, it would just make him different evil.

What kind of evil tyrant doesn't justify himself during his monolouge?
The Xykon kind.