Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

[doliest]

Okay we have the death knight Lord Soth as he was in his role in Dragonlance, fighting the Witch King as he was in the movies.

We have two seperate scenario's to judge them on-

The first is a 1 on 1 with the Witchking(shortly before the movies) fighting Soth(shortly before he meets Kitaria)They are in a forest with no mounts or allies to aid them, and the banshee's of soth's past gone aswell.

The second is the witchking with the mordor army backing him Versus Soth with the blue dragon highlord aiding him, in a long term campaign.

Who would win?

[GoC]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!:smallfurious:

Don't you dare! Debates on Middle Earth never end well!

[EvilElitest]

Hmmmmm, personally i think that it would be more interesting if it was Soth vs. Arthas, but...............hmmmmmmm
from
EE

[AmberVael]

The real question here would be:
Does Lord Soth count as a man under the terms of the Witch King's prophecy?
I can see arguments either way, so I honestly don't think this fight will be resolved nicely.

[warty goblin]

Well, let's see, the Witch King can't kill Soth, it pretty much takes a god (or Raistlin, same diff) to do that. Soth may or may not be able to off the Witch King however. So it's either a draw, or Soth wins the dual.

Campaign wise, I'm giving this to the Witch King however, simply because Morder controls numbers of troops far in excess of Kitiara. High numbers for Dragonlance seem to top out around 1-2 thousand. Even if they are massively superior to orcs, which is probable (I haven't thought about it enough yet) they can't actually attack and retain the numbers neccessary to guard their supply lines. Soth is something of a battle winner, owing to his general durability as well as being able to point at things and make them die, but he can only be in one place at a time.

[pendell]

I am a rabid Middle Earth fan, but I have to give the campaign (option 2) to Lord Soth.

Reason: Although Mordor vastly outnumbers Kitiara's army. Kitiara's army includes *multiple* flights of dragons.

In Middle Earth, a dragon is the ultimate "I win" button. Smaug laid waste Dale, it's kings and men, and reduced Erebor, one of the great fortresses (IMO) of MIddle Earth (so strong that 13 dwarves could hold off 2 armies inside it's gates) -- all by himself, in a *day*.

One dragon, by itself, is a war-winner. See: The Battle of Sudden Flame, Silmarrillion. And Kitiara has *several* flights.

Not to mention a mess of draconians, and not just the cannon-fodder Baaz. Bozaks. Auraks. Sivaks. Any one of which make Gandalf look like a grade-schooler, and some of which explode when killed.Naaasty.

Dragonlance is simply a much higher-magic environment than ME is. Putting this on a technology scale, it's the equivalent of pitting the entire Mongol horde (mordor's troops) against 1 modern armored division (say, Hermann Goering Division, WWII). In a standup engagement, the primitives will be slaughtered. Greater numbers only mean greater slaughter.


As towards the 1v1 -- Lord Soth can cast fireball, and Ringwraiths appear to be vulnerable to fire. That, IMO, is an instant "I win".

How could the witch king win? Well, he's a sorcerer and commands the spirits of the dead. Perhaps he could compel Soth to his will, or turn him.

The problem is that dragonlance is a far higher magic environment than middle earth is, so unless we do something to level the playing field, dragon lance will always win.

The only way I could see a win is if we set Margaret Weis, Tracy Hickman, and JRR Tolkien down to a short story contest, let them each write the story, and had a panel of critics judge the result. Then, Middle Earth just might win. But even then, it's likely they'd disqualify JRR at the outset because he'd probably exceed the word limit by an order of magnitude.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[EvilElitest]

GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me :smalltongue:

WG- I don't recall, but i thought Soth wasn't that powerful enough that it required a god




Reason: Although Mordor vastly outnumbers Kitiara's army. Kitiara's army includes *multiple* flights of dragons.

You underestimate Sauron's power over domination, and nasty tricks


In Middle Earth, a dragon is the ultimate "I win" button. Smaug laid waste Dale, it's kings and men, and reduced Erebor, one of the great fortresses (IMO) of MIddle Earth (so strong that 13 dwarves could hold off 2 armies inside it's gates) -- all by himself, in a *day*.
One dragon, by itself, is a war-winner. See: The Battle of Sudden Flame, Silmarrillion. And Kitiara has *several* flights.

To be fair, ME dragons seems stronger, if fewer than Dragonlance ones


Not to mention a mess of draconians, and not just the cannon-fodder Baaz. Bozaks. Auraks. Sivaks. Any one of which make Gandalf look like a grade-schooler, and some of which explode when killed.Naaasty.

Dragonlance is simply a much higher-magic environment than ME is. Putting this on a technology scale, it's the equivalent of pitting the entire Mongol horde (mordor's troops) against 1 modern armored division (say, Hermann Goering Division, WWII). In a standup engagement, the primitives will be slaughtered. Greater numbers only mean greater slaughter.


I don't think so. It would be a challenge, but the WK has the whole forces of modor (does that include Sauron himself?) and simply has more resources. He can use his many powers to bring down the army over time


As towards the 1v1 -- Lord Soth can cast fireball, and Ringwraiths appear to be vulnerable to fire. That, IMO, is an instant "I win".

WK isn't weak against Fire, through the weaker forms of hte other nazgul are


How could the witch king win? Well, he's a sorcerer and commands the spirits of the dead. Perhaps he could compel Soth to his will, or turn him.
Lots of really nasty monsters, and cruel tricks, like fear, domination, and magic. Most of his magic wouldn't work on Soth, but his Dragon lord friend....
from
EE

[doliest]

GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me :smalltongue:

WG- I don't recall, but i thought Soth wasn't that powerful enough that it required a god



You underestimate Sauron's power over domination, and nasty tricks


To be fair, ME dragons seems stronger, if fewer than Dragonlance ones

I don't think so. It would be a challenge, but the WK has the whole forces of modor (does that include Sauron himself?) and simply has more resources. He can use his many powers to bring down the army over time

WK isn't weak against Fire, through the weaker forms of hte other nazgul are


Lots of really nasty monsters, and cruel tricks, like fear, domination, and magic. Most of his magic wouldn't work on Soth, but his Dragon lord friend....
from
EE

It only seems fair that sauron doesn't get involved, or soth has the queen of darkness on his side, no point involving gods or near gods in this or your asking to never finish the debate.

[EvilElitest]

It only seems fair that sauron doesn't get involved, or soth has the queen of darkness on his side, no point involving gods or near gods in this or your asking to never finish the debate.

Well Soth does have the Dragon lord, which is a pretty big advantage. Could he have sauron, but only in his 3E form?
from
EE

[doliest]

I wouldn't say kitaria is any major advantage espicially compared with ANY of saurons forms, as she's pointed out that soth could kill her...easily.

[Dallas-Dakota]

You guys should stop these ME things VS other things.
ME is low magic and low-powerfull creatures.

Seriously. All those things are just overpowered. I mean, magic O.K. but high magic...
And any magic occuring is by the Istari(Gandalf is one of the Istari), who are servants of the GODS of ME.


One more thing, remember it : ME auto-wins against all these things. Because it has the power of realism on its side.

[Mr. Scaly]

Heh. I wondered when this one would show up. And my opinion? Draw.

Aside from Godhood, Soth can only be harmed by ridiculously powerful magic (i.e. Raistlin level) or some very powerful holy weapon. WK has neither of this so he can't harm him.

WK can only be harmed by non-men or (as i understand it) blessed weapons himself, which Soth does not have so he can't be harmed either.

So in a duel it's a draw, though personally I think Soth is the better swordsman. Solamnic knights are the best swordsmen on Ansalon.


As for army on army, it depends. Soth has his skeletal legions whose touch is death and some banshees (not sure about numbers but it wasn't more than twenty of each) all bound to serve him under the terms of their curse...so none of this controlling undead stuff. :smalltongue: I forget what they're vulnerable to though.

As for Kit, keep in mind that during the War of the Lance she had tens of thousands serving her, and that during the Battle of Palanthas she could only fit a couple thousand inside her flying citadel. And it was still enough to burn Palanthas to the ground. So I think the numbers are more even than suspected.

[GoC]

GoC- ME threads never win well because you never win them, because you are against me :smalltongue:
Very few ME threads end in anything other than a tie. People simply get tired of debating with you but remain completely unconvinced. Remember LK vs. WK?
You claimed you "won" but when the poll came out people said they found the LK side's arguments more convincing.

[AmberVael]

WK can only be harmed by non-men or (as i understand it) blessed weapons himself, which Soth does not have so he can't be harmed either.
On the other hand, it is easy to argue that Soth does not truly count as a man in terms of the prophecy.
He's not really human- he's not even technically alive. He's an animated corpse. Does that count as 'man?' Do animated objects (for that is what a corpse truly is) actually have genders?

[Zenthar]

The real question here would be:
Does Lord Soth count as a man under the terms of the Witch King's prophecy?
I can see arguments either way, so I honestly don't think this fight will be resolved nicely.

The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.

[Mr. Scaly]

On the other hand, it is easy to argue that Soth does not truly count as a man in terms of the prophecy.
He's not really human- he's not even technically alive. He's an animated corpse. Does that count as 'man?' Do animated objects (for that is what a corpse truly is) actually have genders?

Technically not, but everyone refers to him as a man. Even himself.

[Innis Cabal]

The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.

did you even read the books? Or see the movies?

[AmberVael]

Technically not, but everyone refers to him as a man. Even himself.

Which is why I initially stated in the thread that it would be a very difficult argument. On one hand, technically he is not a man. On the other... in all perception and in his life, he was a man.


The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.

Um. If someone is prophesied to be killed by a specific type of person (in this case, someone not a man), that most certainly counts if we're asking whether a certain type of person could kill them.
And no, he was NOT destined to be killed by a hobbit, he was destined to by killed by Eowyn, who is a woman, not a man.
In fact, if we can believe Wikipedia, Tolkien argued that it would have, in fact, been impossible for a male hobbit to kill the Witch King, as they are merely a subrace of man, and not their own race as they would like to be.

[WalkingTarget]

Um. If someone is prophesied to be killed by a specific type of person (in this case, someone not a man), that most certainly counts if we're asking whether a certain type of person could kill them.
And no, he was NOT destined to be killed by a hobbit, he was destined to by killed by Eowyn, who is a woman, not a man.
In fact, if we can believe Wikipedia, Tolkien argued that it would have, in fact, been impossible for a male hobbit to kill the Witch King, as they are merely a subrace of man, and not their own race as they would like to be.

In an attempt to get in before this argument really gets going again, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4321511&postcount=335) is a post I'd made trying to state the prophecy != protection viewpoint.

Short version: prophecy is a plot device. If we're introducing events outside of said plot, then it's irrelevant.

[AmberVael]

Actually, your argument seems to point more towards that no one but Eowyn could actually kill the Witch King, since the terms of the prophecy are merely vague references to what someone actually knows about the future.

And to point things out from another viewpoint, a lot of the powers of any character come through machinations of plot. If we dismiss this prophecy merely because 'it is a plot device' then I'm sure we can dismiss a slew of Soth's powers, or many things about other threads such as this.

[Dallas-Dakota]

If Soth can have his Banshees then WK can have his Nazgul and his 8 companions.

[WalkingTarget]

Actually, your argument seems to point more towards that no one but Eowyn could actually kill the Witch King, since the terms of the prophecy are merely vague references to what someone actually knows about the future.

Ok, that's a way to view it. This makes any and all Vs. threads involving the WK completely trivial if they do not also include Eowyn so I go with the interpretation that allows for us to have an interesting discussion involving the character (or any character with a prophesied demise).


And to point things out from another viewpoint, a lot of the powers of any character come through machinations of plot. If we dismiss this prophecy merely because 'it is a plot device' then I'm sure we can dismiss a slew of Soth's powers, or many things about other threads such as this.

Powers gained over the course of the story are something else entirely. It'd be entirely different to say that he doesn't get to be a wraith since the acquisition of a Ring is part of the plot too. It's not like the WK has a "everybody but an Eowyn and Merry tag-team" force field as a specific ability. I'm sure he has some sorts of protective spells going on, but the specificity of "not by the hand of man" is what the viewpoint wants to get past.

[Zenthar]

did you even read the books? Or see the movies?

Yes. I remembered wrong.

And Vael, as has already been pointed out, the prophecy does not grant protection outside of the plot, because it is merely the destiny of the Witch King in the books/movies.

[Tyrant]

I thought that the generally accepted conclusion that had been reached in other threads was that the WK can be killed by anyone, so long as they can undo his magical protection. It seemed to be accepted that it was the sword strike from the hobbit with what amounted to an anti WK sword that made the death blow possible, not her gender.

If that is the case, then it comes down to if Soth can do that. I don't believe the Power Word Kill trick will work because WK is either undead or kept alive by Sauron's will and I don't see either of those factors overcome with that ability. Causing fear in one another is useless. WK serves an incarnation of evil and Soth has stood his ground against the primary evil goddess of his world. As far as actually destroying either one, it is not easy. It's been a while since I read the War of the Souls, but Soth was either brought down by Takhisis or her pawn Mina who, also being a god, may or may not have needed any boost from the Queen of Darkness , both of whom wield far greater power than the WK. WK is finally destroyed with the One Ring's destruction. I don't know how WK could harm Soth in any meaningful way and Soth would have an interesting time trying to harm the WK. It could be a stalemate, or they could fight for centuries and destroy everything around them. I guess the real question is if Soth can overcome the WK magical protection or somehow undo it.

In terms of a military conflict I think the WK potential numbers are a huge asset. Draconians are far better troops, but Soth would have far fewer of them. His hope would be the dragons. They could probably demolish the WK's army with minimal (if any) losses.

Escalating it to Sauron's entire army and territories (and like wise escalating to the entire armies of the Dragon Highlords), I think The Highlords are in for a more difficult fight. Suaron's forces are vast and his territory (at least Mordor) is very heavily defended. The Highlords have better troops and more readily available magic (divine and arcane). The magic won't work as well (if at all) in Mordor, but up to that point they will be obliterating orcs in large numbers. Depending on how far up the Mordor anti magic effect reaches, the Flying Fortresses could be used to drop Draconians behind the Black Gate (this tactic was actually used by Kitiara). The Flying Fortresses and Dragons make static defenses less of an issue. Sauron would probably need to be dealt with by Takhisis directly (or Mina I suppose).

[Mr. Scaly]

I think we should just keep the army battle between the Blue Dragonarmy and the forces that WK had at Pelennor Fields. If we add in Mordor and all the subject territories, then it would be Soth vs Mordor and it would turn into a Dragonarmies vs Mordor type of thread.

[EvilElitest]

Very few ME threads end in anything other than a tie. People simply get tired of debating with you but remain completely unconvinced. Remember LK vs. WK?
You claimed you "won" but when the poll came out people said they found the LK side's arguments more convincing.

1) An illegal poll
2) polls mean nothing, because in terms of numbers, nothing is proved. Lots of people like Eragon, that doen't make it a good book
3) you simply repeated your arguments again and again.
4) most other ME threads have a clear conclusions, mostly ME winning, through few bring about losses



The prophecy doesn't matter. It was only there because he was destined to be killed by a hobbit. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been there. So you can ditch it.
Actually it was the gender that let Eowyn hurt him, the hobbit thing was just a different loophole

Anyways, Soth isn't living so.....



Also would the WK's power allow any women to hurt him, like that general


a few other points here

1) Just because Soth was killed by a god, doesn't mean he can only be killed by a god. I have the Dragonlance RPG (through i'm afraid to open it because of spin damage) and it has the death knight template. So a non god can kill him, through it would be hard
2) Does the WK get all of Sauron's forces, just not Sauron? Because if that is the case, the vase number of forces compared to the Blue dragon army and lord Soth's personal army. lets look at Soth's army powers



1) a few hundred blue dragons of various ages
2) A few thousand humans
3) a few thousand draconicans of various types
4) goblins, hobgoblins, orges, a few thousand
5) A small honor guard of skelotons
6) 13 skelton knights and some banshees

Sauron's force are simply absurdly massive compared to this

Remember, even without Sauron, Dragons, for all of their power, can be affected by the WK's forces (if he gets all of his orces). Fel beats, hoards of morder flies, giant bats, normal bats, Cerbain, Crows, Cold Drakes, Fire Drakes,vampires plauge, along with archers and siege machines and towers. Also don't forget, dragons aren't immune to fear, nor to despair, nor to the corruption of mordor, and the WK has a morgul blades

from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

EE, if we put all the armies of both the Dragonarmies and Mordor together then it ceases to be a battle between Soth and WK. How about we just keep it between the Blue Wing and the forces that WK had at Pelennor field, for example? That seems more likely to me.

And for the record, the armies from the War of the Lance were pretty big. There are references to a Support Force that joined up with the Red Army being 10,000 strong.

[GoC]

1) An illegal poll
2) polls mean nothing, because in terms of numbers, nothing is proved. Lots of people like Eragon, that doen't make it a good book
3) you simply repeated your arguments again and again.
4) most other ME threads have a clear conclusions, mostly ME winning, through few bring about losses
1) Whatever helps you sleep at night.
2) See 1.
3) Kettle, pot, black?
4) See 2.

[EvilElitest]

1) Whatever helps you sleep at night.
2) See 1.
3) Kettle, pot, black?
4) See 2.

1) There is a rule saying you can't have two threads on the same thing
2) also i never rely on numbers. They don't prove anything. You could get a hundred thousand guys to say that Shreed Moose is an amazing webcomic and that dosen't make it so
3) Actually no, because i countered all of yours. Mr. Scaly was the best man on your side
4) See most ME threads, generally ME wins, through there a few more absurd exceptions
from
EE

[GoC]

1) There is a rule saying you can't have two threads on the same thing
2) also i never rely on numbers. They don't prove anything. You could get a hundred thousand guys to say that Shreed Moose is an amazing webcomic and that dosen't make it so
3) Actually no, because i countered all of yours. Mr. Scaly was the best man on your side
4) See most ME threads, generally ME wins, through there a few more absurd exceptions
from
EE
1) So because it's illegal it's also invalid?
2) No, you relied on sheer persistence. And actually due to the definition of "amazing" it does in fact make it an amazing webcomic. Also the people who remained unconvinced where intelligent and logical people so they could have been convinced had your arguments been worthwhile.
3) You left many things uncountered despite your claims otherwise.
4) So if ME doesn't win it's absurd...

[EvilElitest]

1) So because it's illegal it's also invalid?
2) No, you relied on sheer persistence. And actually due to the definition of "amazing" it does in fact make it an amazing webcomic. Also the people who remained unconvinced where intelligent and logical people so they could have been convinced had your arguments been worthwhile.
3) You left many things uncountered despite your claims otherwise.
4) So if ME doesn't win it's absurd...

1) For vs. threads, of course. Numbers are meanenless
2) No, a hoard of bleating sheep reciting praise does not make something good or something true. If the pouplation of china says the world is flat, that world is not flat. Quality over quantity, vs. threads aren't vote or polls, because that is just a popularity contest, not a discussion. Same with real debates
3) Actually no, my only uncountered point was the nature of WK's prophecy and the WK's protection vs. the Frostmourn, both of which were dropped. Also don't accuse me of stubborness it was the pro LK people who necro
4) I didn't say that, just the ones where Me is defeated from teh start are absurd, like ME vs. real life. I mean, there isn't any contest
from
EE
4)

[GoC]

1) For vs. threads, of course. Numbers are meanenless
2) No, a hoard of bleating sheep reciting praise does not make something good or something true. If the pouplation of china says the world is flat, that world is not flat. Quality over quantity, vs. threads aren't vote or polls, because that is just a popularity contest, not a discussion. Same with real debates
3) Actually no, my only uncountered point was the nature of WK's prophecy and the WK's protection vs. the Frostmourn, both of which were dropped. Also don't accuse me of stubborness it was the pro LK people who necro
4) I didn't say that, just the ones where Me is defeated from teh start are absurd, like ME vs. real life. I mean, there isn't any contest
from
EE

2. a. So you're calling numerous fellow giantitpers "bleating sheep" incapable of forming their own opinions?
b. The population of China isn't going to call the world flat because most of the population of China is intelligent.
c. Once the debate is over the "winner" is the person who's arguments would be most convincing to an intelligent person.
3. You left several things uncountered but they are currently in ancient threads I won't bother to dig around in so it's basically your word against mine.
4. But wouldn't Sauron use his awesome, globe-spanning, corruption powers that instantly turn every sentient creature in 1000 miles into his loyal slaves?
Don't you also remember that "a nuke wouldn't hurt him[Sauron]"?
And then he could use those amazing mountain destroying powers that someone mentioned in one of those deleted threads (had a black dragon avatar)... What did he say? Of yes I remember:
"Had Gandalf chosen to use his full power then Sauron would have done the same and Middle Earth would have been destroyed."

It certainly looks like there's a "contest".

[EvilElitest]

2. a. So you're calling numerous fellow giantitpers "bleating sheep" incapable of forming their own opinions?
b. The population of China isn't going to call the world flat because most of the population of China is intelligent.
c. Once the debate is over the "winner" is the person who's arguments would be most convincing to an intelligent person.


a) only if a statement is being badly misinterpreted. I'm saying numbers make no difference in a debate, like real debates. numbers mean BS, it means nothing. It is the arguments
b)your certainly being stubborn about missing the point. I'm saying if China said the world was flat, that would make no difference. Numbers do no defeat fact
c) And numbers make no difference, that just makes it a popularity contest. People support their favorite character or don't read the whole thread (IE, issue that came up because some posters didn't actually read the thread) or
because they haven't understood the argument. Numbers don't counter anything


3. You left several things uncountered but they are currently in ancient threads I won't bother to dig around in so it's basically your word against mine.
Considering your using faulty fact in the description of the thread.....


4. But wouldn't Sauron use his awesome, globe-spanning, corruption powers that instantly turn every sentient creature in 1000 miles into his loyal slaves?
Snark is like a sword, you don't use it well you only hurt yourself


Don't you also remember that "a nuke wouldn't hurt him[Sauron]"?
Personally i don't really think it makes a difference ether way, the US army would have enough nukes to destroy Mordor a few times over


And then he could use those amazing mountain destroying powers that someone mentioned in one of those deleted threads (had a black dragon avatar)...
Well you ether are miss quoting him or he is wrong.


What did he say? Of yes I remember:
"Had Gandalf chosen to use his full power then Sauron would have done the same and Middle Earth would have been destroyed."

It certainly looks like there's a "contest".
The US army can cause enough damage in such little time that Sauron couldn't mount a proper defense
from
EE

[Lepre_Khan]

Really, you're both missing the point.

The WK wins because he was written by a vastly superior author.

Though, if we have to dish it out by other means:

Wasn't the prophecy made more or less off-hand by Glorfindel? He came in and routed the Witch-Kings force, but rather than chase down and kill the WK, he instead says something to the effect of, "I suddenly feel that no man can kill the Lord of the Nazgul".

Also: Wasn't it, at least partially, Tolkien's frustration with Macbeth that led to this prophecy. He felt that Macduff's loophole was too forced (just as he felt that the forest should literally have came to the castle [two towers, eh?]. So from here it seems like it would be a lot more than just some fancy spell/sword (That Glorfindel surely could have handled).

[GoC]

a) only if a statement is being badly misinterpreted. I'm saying numbers make no difference in a debate, like real debates. numbers mean BS, it means nothing. It is the arguments
b)your certainly being stubborn about missing the point. I'm saying if China said the world was flat, that would make no difference. Numbers do no defeat fact
c) And numbers make no difference, that just makes it a popularity contest. People support their favorite character or don't read the whole thread (IE, issue that came up because some posters didn't actually read the thread) or
because they haven't understood the argument. Numbers don't counter anything
a) So you didn't actually call anyone a bleating sheep?
b) And I'm saying that these are intelligent people who have reasons for being unconvinced. Thus these aren't just empty numbers, they have meaning.
c) How on earth is this related to my c) that you were replying to?


Considering your using faulty fact in the description of the thread.....
Does that sentence make sense to anyone? I think you need to improve your grammar as I can't make head or tales of this.


Well you ether are miss quoting him or he is wrong.
Obvious much?
Please repair your sarcasm/snark detector.

[EvilElitest]

a) So you didn't actually call anyone a bleating sheep?
b) And I'm saying that these are intelligent people who have reasons for being unconvinced. Thus these aren't just empty numbers, they have meaning.
c) How on earth is this related to my c) that you were replying to?

1) I'm saying that numbers are meaningless
2) no they don't, for the same reason that numbers don't make a difference in formal debates, it is about the arguments, not the amount of people you can get to stat unbacked support.
3) That numbers are useless in proving a point, it is only a popularity contest



Does that sentence make sense to anyone? I think you need to improve your grammar as I can't make head or tales of this.

back of dyslexia. I'm saying that you can't call my stuff faulty when your using numbers as your proof of victory



Obvious much?
Please repair your sarcasm/snark detector.
It isn't funny enough to be worth mocking, and it is a second person source




Really, you're both missing the point.

The WK wins because he was written by a vastly superior author.
pretty much, i wish that worked more often


Though, if we have to dish it out by other means:

Wasn't the prophecy made more or less off-hand by Glorfindel? He came in and routed the Witch-Kings force, but rather than chase down and kill the WK, he instead says something to the effect of, "I suddenly feel that no man can kill the Lord of the Nazgul".
personally i think it is a protection that Glorfindal noted, you know like "Hey, that guy can't be hurt by men" or "Hey that vampire can't be hurt by non magical weapons" but it could just be he had the gift of forsight


Also: Wasn't it, at least partially, Tolkien's frustration with Macbeth that led to this prophecy. He felt that Macduff's loophole was too forced (just as he felt that the forest should literally have came to the castle [two towers, eh?]. So from here it seems like it would be a lot more than just some fancy spell/sword (That Glorfindel surely could have handled).
Yeah, Tolkien field the Shakesphere needed to make those prophecies more literal powers
from
EE

[Vael Nir]

internet, forum, arguing, serious business...

[EvilElitest]

internet, forum, arguing, serious business...

yes we've heard it
from
EE

[Occasional Sage]

Hoping to re-track this some, can somebody remind me what the actual details of Soth's resistances/immunities are? I haven't read any Dragonlance in years....

On the topic of Soth being able to affect the WK, I'm doubtful. He was a man in life, and has never stopped truly being one in the centuries since as his thinking and reactions show. There's the "undead" technicality, but if that were a serious way to circumvent the WK prophecy then I can't imagine other Nazgul leaving him to lead them. Yes he was more powerful than the others, but not that drastically, iirc.

Speaking of "in life," there was mention of beefy magic being able to affect Soth. With all of the power gained by the direct support of Sauron, wouldn't the WK's potency be right up there with what you'd need? It'd be roughly similar to a deity's avatar stepping in, I'd think.

[doliest]

Speaking of "in life," there was mention of beefy magic being able to affect Soth. With all of the power gained by the direct support of Sauron, wouldn't the WK's potency be right up there with what you'd need? It'd be roughly similar to a deity's avatar stepping in, I'd think.

Maybe, but the only people shown to overpower(Or can) Soth were
A.Mina-
Who WAS a godess
B.Raistilin-
Who would go on to time travel, attempt godhodd, and just generally overpowered most things that ever existed

Also to the person who said Tolkien was the better author...aside from being a bad arguement, that's an opinion, I personally hate anything Tolkien has ever written.

[EvilElitest]

apperently Doliest has no taste :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, just because powerful people defeated Soth, doesn't mean that soth can only be overcome by powerful people. He is a death knight, so he is powerful, but not unbeatable
from
EE

[Occasional Sage]

apperently Doliest has no taste :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, just because powerful people defeated Soth, doesn't mean that soth can only be overcome by powerful people. He is a death knight, so he is powerful, but not unbeatable
from
EE

So what ARE the limits of Soth's protection? I've gotten, "This is what we've seen work," but not actual limits. For all we know, Mina and Raistlin were overkill by a large margin, right?

[Lepre_Khan]

Also to the person who said Tolkien was the better author...aside from being a bad arguement, that's an opinion, I personally hate anything Tolkien has ever written.

A bad argument? You sir, are far too kind. It was in fact a terrible argument! A joke of an argument some might say!

That said, it's far from an opinion. Or, if it is an opinion, it's the correct opinion to hold as any English Major or professor or really, anybody qualified to hold opinions on that sort of thing, can tell you.

Whether you enjoy Tolkien or not doesn't take away from his skill as a writer.

[EvilElitest]

So what ARE the limits of Soth's protection? I've gotten, "This is what we've seen work," but not actual limits. For all we know, Mina and Raistlin were overkill by a large margin, right?

Well i can get teh states for a Dragonlance Deathknight if that could help
from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

Well i can get teh states for a Dragonlance Deathknight if that could help
from
EE

You should know better then to look at stats over fluff. Shame on you EE.

Id say its a tie honestly, both have ill defined ways to kill them off

[Mr. Scaly]

At last, a return to the topic at hand.

I distinctly remember two things that Soth is vulnerable to, as discussed by those who were about to be attacked by him.

A) Extremely powerful magic. At the time, only Raistlin had that kind of power and he was in another timeline.

B) Extremely powerful holy blessings/weapons, of which none existed at the time or with the power to produce them.

And C) a plot device god.

Let's be honest...Mina/Takhissis/whichever one did it didn't exactly defeat him. She/they returned him to mortality then dropped his castle on him, killing him over again.

Now, I see no reason for someone as evil as the Witch King to have a holy weapon/blessing. That leaves ridiculously powerful magic. And from what I remember he was always more warrior than mage, using his magic only to fight with Gandalf and pick on halflings.

[EvilElitest]

You should know better then to look at stats over fluff. Shame on you EE.

Id say its a tie honestly, both have ill defined ways to kill them off

but it is cannon through
from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

Its as cannon as SM stats.

Only the Dark Powers really can beat Soth, and then he is only ultimatly beating himself.

[Rowanomicon]

I always wanted to see Soth enter this, but then I realized that A) nothing good could come of it and B) there's really no way to settle it.

I think a one on one match is pretty much a tie.

They are both top tier swordsmen. No clear advantage either way.
They both wield powerful magic, but both have protection from most magic.

If Soth could sneak attack WK with the proper potent spell somehow then he could likely win, but sneak attacks don't generally happen in such one on one matches.

I'm not even going to touch the army battle.

OK maybe I will.
Since this is Soth v WK I think it's pretty obvious that Sauron and other such superior don't get involved, but if they are to have their servants then I think they should have all of them (later you'll see this doesn't make much difference).
So WK, Soth, and everyone with a lower rank is involved.
I'm not sure what this means for Soth, but for WK it means everyone on his side except Sauron and Saruman.

I gather Soth's forces are outnumbered and WK's are outgunned. Correct?

As I said earlier it doesn't matter all that much.
After a while everyone except the top tier will be dead.
For the WK this means himself and the other Nazgul are still around.
I can't really think of anyone else that could make it off the top of my head, except maybe for beings like the spirits of the Dead Marshes and other evil spirit types. It's up in the air if the Fell Beasts could make it for the Nazgul to still have at this point.

For Soth I'd say he'd still have the older Dragon that are on his side, and probably other things that I can't remember since it's been so long since I've read the books.

Now I'm actually going to drop it as I don't know where to go from here.

Sorry for my ramblings and poor spelling and grammer. I really shouldn't post if I'm not going to take the time to post well, but I am anyway.

Oh, and Lepre_Khan, you made me chuckle (and I agree with you), thanks.

[Mr. Scaly]

On a side note, if WK was once human then could Tahkissis do to him what she did to Soth?

[doliest]

On a side note, if WK was once human then could Tahkissis do to him what she did to Soth?

Probably, although if tahkissis showed up herself, she'd just kill him for his insolence. The only reason she didn't with soth was because A. she wanted to recruit him, and B. She knew it was probably what he wanted.

[EvilElitest]

On a side note, if WK was once human then could Tahkissis do to him what she did to Soth?

i doubt it, because the WK's soul is in the One ring.


On the note of Soth, i say again, while the Wk is extremly hard to hurt, Soth is still a Death Knight. An extremly powerful and dangerous Death knight, but a death knight none the less. He can still be killed
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

1) An illegal poll
2) polls mean nothing, because in terms of numbers, nothing is proved. Lots of people like Eragon, that doen't make it a good book
3) you simply repeated your arguments again and again.
4) most other ME threads have a clear conclusions, mostly ME winning, through few bring about losses
1) You were the only guy making a fuss about it, accusing me of starting a popularity contest when I was just attempting to moniter the beliefs.
2) Hey, Eragon was a good book. No one can deny that. Oh yeah, and polls do mean something. They represent the main populations decisions and choices. Most of what we have in government is made up of polls. Don't say they count for nothing.
3) Well... we attempted to bring evidence to the table (Which you did not see), and we were trying to hold a calm argument, only retaliating to insults.
4) Yeah, ME is not instant win. Never was, never will be. It actually does tend to be a handicap when compared to worlds like Azeroth in Warcraft or Eberron and Forgotten Realms in D&D.


3) Actually no, my only uncountered point was the nature of WK's prophecy and the WK's protection vs. the Frostmourn, both of which were dropped. Also don't accuse me of stubborness it was the pro LK people who necro
It was never actually settled. It left off with you self proclaiming that "You were winning the thread".
PS, I actually do know that Frostmourne can penetrate the Wk's armor. Chaos damage FTW (bypasses even the invulnerability cheat... yes, I know it because I cheated... so sue me)


1) I'm saying that numbers are meaningless
2) no they don't, for the same reason that numbers don't make a difference in formal debates, it is about the arguments, not the amount of people you can get to stat unbacked support.
3) That numbers are useless in proving a point, it is only a popularity contest 1) Yet you seem to rely on RPG sources alot, which are in form, just numbers.
2) You are saying that people don't have good reasons for what they believe? Are you the judge of good reasons?
3) Well... in technicalities, a vs. thread is a popularity contest. Sure its a debate, but is it not trying to prove strengths they have over each other, and who, ultimately based on arguments, wins? Yes. In that manner, it is a popularity contest. Note also how some people said in the poll that the LK side placed forth a better argument.


On the note of Soth, i say again, while the Wk is extremly hard to hurt, Soth is still a Death Knight. An extremly powerful and dangerous Death knight, but a death knight none the less. He can still be killed But not permanently. I think it did actually take a god to kill him. I've only read this up in the first few pages of his history, he is like a lich, his soul is bound to the world by a tomb thing.
Also, saying he is just a death knight by his class isn't fairly judging him. He is described as one of the most influencing and evil characters in the early D&D years. You can't just say he's a deathknight and say that makes him killable. While true, it is incredibly difficult, and out of all the people who likely attempted, he was only defeated by two powerful beings.

And now my opinion... I agree with Rowan, the two sides are just so powerful. Soth does have fewer numbers, while WK doesn't have as much overall power. One could say that quality over quantity wins, but its truly debatable. Numbers don't win a battle, but they sure do help.

Oh, and I think that the one ring doesn't count for squat when Sauron isn't involved. WK is vulnerable thus in vs. threads. And it truly debateable if the soul is actually in it. Unless it is possible to get proof of such a claim, don't make it.

[Mr. Scaly]

i doubt it, because the WK's soul is in the One ring.


On the note of Soth, i say again, while the Wk is extremly hard to hurt, Soth is still a Death Knight. An extremly powerful and dangerous Death knight, but a death knight none the less. He can still be killed
from
EE

I'm sure he can. I already listed the known quantities that could hurt him, ridiculously powerful magic, very high level holy blessings/weapons, or a god. Unfortunately WK isn't a god and has nothing holy about him, and I honestly don't think his magic is strong enough.

[EvilElitest]

1) You were the only guy making a fuss about it, accusing me of starting a popularity contest when I was just attempting to moniter the beliefs.
2) Hey, Eragon was a good book. No one can deny that. Oh yeah, and polls do mean something. They represent the main populations decisions and choices. Most of what we have in government is made up of polls. Don't say they count for nothing.
3) Well... we attempted to bring evidence to the table (Which you did not see), and we were trying to hold a calm argument, only retaliating to insults.
4) Yeah, ME is not instant win. Never was, never will be. It actually does tend to be a handicap when compared to worlds like Azeroth in Warcraft or Eberron and Forgotten Realms in D&D.

1a) which is in essence a popularity contest, because the implication is that the numbers make some sort of difference in a debate. It doesn't
1B)
One Topic, One Thread
There should be, in most cases, one active thread for a specific topic. Please check and see if there is already an active thread (one that has been posted on in the last six weeks and is no further back than page 3) discussing a topic before posting a new one.
a survey on another thread is illegal. you could do a popularity contest "who do you like better?
2a) Eragon a good book. your kidding right. That thing is simply pathetic. And the place to prove it (I thought players were supposed to add the spirit of a game?). Eragon was the work of a hack, and is utter disgrace to the fantasy genre
2b) Actually, if your referring to the American government, no. Popular vote decides who gets into office, but once there the guys make the decisions. We have a representative government. Also note national debates. Numbers are worth nothing, zip, nada, other fancy words in a debate
2c) and if you get a few million people to say Shreeded Moose is a great webcomic, that doesn't make it any less sexist and bad
3a) i did see the evidence, and acted upon it. Mr. Scaly and I am Undead brought up the most evidence that actually proved something. If we are going to talk about evidence, it was you trying to disprove the WoW RPG (Published with approval form blizzard and is considered cannon)
3b) Don't attempt to start the moral high ground, in you first post you called me a troll. It sounds great to act with more moral clarity, but anyone who read your original posts, while having valid points, were not a promotion of civility. (yes i still remember you accusing me of not providing page numbers i had provided long before you joined)
4) Yes. But it isn't instantly defeated by any of those setting actually


It was never actually settled. It left off with you self proclaiming that "You were winning the thread".
it was dropped because Rowan had long sense proved his point without being disputed. The case is still true


PS, I actually do know that Frostmourne can penetrate the Wk's armor. Chaos damage FTW (bypasses even the invulnerability cheat... yes, I know it because I cheated... so sue me)
1)
Frostmourne is a unique and indestructible item - an artifact-level bastard sword with the following abilities: an increased chance to hit, increased damage, an increased chance of scoring a critical hit, an increased attack speed, the ability to strike incorporeal creatures as though they were fully corporeal, the ability to cause bleeding wounds and reduce the victim's stamina, bonus damage against good-aligned beings, bonus damage against living beings, and a life-draining effect that heals its wielder when he deals damage. MoM 174
The chaos thing is vague, i think it means he can overcome natural armor, not sure about spells, because in WCIII it doesn't let him overcome protection spells i recall
2) Actually, that wasn't hte point of argument. The point was that if it did hit the WK (which ironically enough, i was fine with) would it be destroyed like any thing else it does. All items that touch him are said to be destoryed by the WK, and Frostmourn is said to be indestructible


1) Yet you seem to rely on RPG sources alot, which are in form, just numbers.
2) You are saying that people don't have good reasons for what they believe? Are you the judge of good reasons?
3) Well... in technicalities, a vs. thread is a popularity contest. Sure its a debate, but is it not trying to prove strengths they have over each other, and who, ultimately based on arguments, wins? Yes. In that manner, it is a popularity contest. Note also how some people said in the poll that the LK side placed forth a better argument.
1)........what? I mean numbers like numbers of people, not numbers literally
2) I'm saying that saying "I agree" doesn't prove anything. According to your logic, because China has 1.4 billion people who follow a communist (in theory) system they are right in saying it is the best system. Or if all of Asia decided to unite and become fascist, would that make them fight?
3a) No, vs. threads are like debates. Not a popularity contest, which are "I like him better" or "I think he is better" They are debates, and like real debates they are governed by logic and arguments, not masses of numbers. There is a reason why vs. threads generally don't have polls. I did a vs. thread once, Sora, vs. link. I put a poll up, Sora, link, and just for fun, link's hat. Link's hat got more votes than sora. By your logic, that means if Sora and link's hat fought, link's hat would win because of its vote count. Now we both know link's hat would win because it is awesome in every possible way but hey
2b) and that is all they said. That means nothing. Saying "I think their argument is better" means nothing, because nothing indicates the've read the thread nor understand the argument. That is nothing but a popularity contest


But not permanently. I think it did actually take a god to kill him. I've only read this up in the first few pages of his history, he is like a lich, his soul is bound to the world by a tomb thing.
Just because he was killed by a god doesn't mean a god can only kill him. And what about this tomb?


Also, saying he is just a death knight by his class isn't fairly judging him. He is described as one of the most influencing and evil characters in the early D&D years. You can't just say he's a deathknight and say that makes him killable. While true, it is incredibly difficult, and out of all the people who likely attempted, he was only defeated by two powerful beings.

Dude, Deathknight is a template. What is What he became, like a vampire



Oh, and I think that the one ring doesn't count for squat when Sauron isn't involved. WK is vulnerable thus in vs. threads. And it truly debateable if the soul is actually in it. Unless it is possible to get proof of such a claim, don't make it.

1)Actually i does in terms of soul it does make a difference, just not in any other sense. For example, the fact taht the WK comes back doesn't make a difference your right. But hte nature of his soul vs. certain effects yes. True if it was a god she could just destory him out right in another manner
2) He is said to be bound to Sauron and hte one right. Remember when they are destoryed at rivendale

Mr. Scaly

i need to check my books, but i don't htink those are the only things needed to hurt him. They work best i imagine but not hte only method

from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

i doubt it, because the WK's soul is in the One ring.


On the note of Soth, i say again, while the Wk is extremly hard to hurt, Soth is still a Death Knight. An extremly powerful and dangerous Death knight, but a death knight none the less. He can still be killed
from
EE

Umm..EE....no, the WK's ring was not the One Ring....that was Saurons and Saurons alone. In fact... the WK never wore it...not in anything printed......ever.....

[EvilElitest]

Umm..EE....no, the WK's ring was not the One Ring....that was Saurons and Saurons alone. In fact... the WK never wore it...not in anything printed......ever.....

that isn't what i'm saying. The WK's has his own ring, which is bound to Sauron's ring. So the Wk is bound to the one ring. that is why he can't be destoryed until it is, and why he serves Sauron. The WK never had the One Ring i know
from
EE

[Bago!!!]

I found Eragon a good read. Don't like it? Thats your oppinion EE. Calling the Author a hack, though I find that rude and wrong, your entitled to your oppinion. And if it is not a popularity contest, then how can you win? By smiting others with logic or simply telling the other side that they are wrong? Cause some people just don't know when to quit, and others are epic level necromancers. :smallwink: But I digress from the topic.

From what I have read about Lord Soth, he has slain epic creatures with but a word, penetrated cities thought unconquerable, devestated armies, achieved cursed immortality, out matched almost all with sword alone, and was defeated by the head of the dark pantheon who had to restore his mortality to do so. All I can say, from a brief reading, the very character just plain rocks the witch king's socks. His magics defeated a dragon, he can practically destroy many foes at once.

Just a death knight? I thought death knights were more significant than a vampire, just like ring wraiths are more significant than your average undead GI Joe.

Would write more, but it is late and I need to sleep.

[EvilElitest]

I found Eragon a good read. Don't like it? Thats your oppinion EE. Calling the Author a hack, though I find that rude and wrong, your entitled to your oppinion. And if it is not a popularity contest, then how can you win? By smiting others with logic or simply telling the other side that they are wrong? Cause some people just don't know when to quit, and others are epic level necromancers. :smallwink: But I digress from the topic.

1) No, when i say i don't like Star Trek, but i reorganize some of its good points, i just don't like. Calling him a hack is accurate, because that is what the books is the work of, somebody with no talent. http://anti-shurtugal.com/mission.htm see there
The book is nothing but the work of a hack, somebody without any talent working off of cliches and fridge logic
2) the same way you win real debate, through logic
3) you brought it back from the dead, not I



From what I have read about Lord Soth, he has slain epic creatures with but a word, penetrated cities thought unconquerable, devestated armies, achieved cursed immortality, out matched almost all with sword alone, and was defeated by the head of the dark pantheon who had to restore his mortality to do so. All I can say, from a brief reading, the very character just plain rocks the witch king's socks. His magics defeated a dragon, he can practically destroy many foes at once.

1) Fancy descriptions don't prove a point. I realize Soth is powerful, i just don't think he can win
2) Um, he got cursed with immortality, nothing special
3) He was defeated by the dark godess, don't mean nobody else coudl hurt him
4) His magic scared a dragon i believe, i don't recall him killing one.



Just a death knight? I thought death knights were more significant than a vampire, just like ring wraiths are more significant than your average undead GI Joe.

I need to check hte rule book again, but i think they are just freaking powerful, not absurd
from
EE

[warty goblin]

4) His magic scared a dragon i believe, i don't recall him killing one.
EE
Having just read Legends recently I can officially say that Soth killed a dragon. Of course he did it in a timeline that never technically happened, but he is capable of doing so. Specifically in the "Raistlin becomes a God, kills everything" timeline when Soth assaults Palanthas, Tanis challenges him. Soth breaks out the Power Word Kill on Tanis and the dragon he's riding- Tanis is protected by the bracelet thingy, but the dragon goes to that great goldpile in the sky.

On another note, the actual power of Soth is, at least in the books, rather hard to quantify, but is pushing the top of the charts. Here's a few examples that come to mind:

When Soth tried to kill Crysania, Paladine wasn't able to actually stop his spell, but only alter its effects somewhat from "Very, completely and irrevocably dead" to "pretty much like dead, but capable of being brought back by like three people in the history of the universe, all of whom have been dead for 300 years." That's the best that one of the most potent dieties was able to do against Soth's magic.

He scares Tasslehoff. That's like, damn...

He even scares Ariakas, which is no mean feat, given that Ariakas is regularly in communion with the most evil being in the cosmos. In fact it's not 100% clear from the books whether or not Ariakas would be able to beat Soth.

[EvilElitest]

WG thanks for the dragon note. I don't deny his badass powers, Soth is my second favorite character in th books, but i don't think we can just say "he is only able to be killed by a god"

Lets do this logically, what does Soth have that can hurt the WK and visa versa?
from
EE

[warty goblin]

WG thanks for the dragon note. I don't deny his badass powers, Soth is my second favorite character in th books, but i don't think we can just say "he is only able to be killed by a god"

Lets do this logically, what does Soth have that can hurt the WK and visa versa?
from
EE
I agree that just because Soth was killed by a god doesn't mean that only a god can do it. On the other hand the only other Death Knight I know of was Krell from the Amber & ____ trilogy, who was also done in by more or less a god. The only mortal I can think of who was able to defeat Soth was Raistlin, but seeing as he killed an entire pantheon that's not much of a lower bound either- although Soth recognizes Raistlin's superiority before he goes back in time and aquires all of Fistandantilus' power, so he's not yet at deicide power levels. Raistlin however also makes it perfectly clear that at that time the only reason he hasn't conquered the entire world is because the proposition is too boring to be worth his time.

Of perhaps more interest however is the encounter between Soth and Ariakas- who is both an adept wizard (he passed the Test), a very powerful warrior (he's able to throw a spear clean through a horse) and is Minion Numero Uno to Takhisis. He is in short a reasonable analogue in function and more or less in form to the Witch King- and Soth takes him down by grabbing his wrist. Ariakas is then literally awestruck by the power of Soth, and seeing as he tends to cahort around with two different goddesses (he serves Takhisis and has a son with Zebiom) Ariakas strikes me as a man not easily taken aback.

[Mr. Scaly]

EE, that's a reasonable assumption. But honestly, I have no idea what else could do the job. :smalleek:

As was mentioned earlier, he killed a dragon with a word.

He out duelled Tanis Halfelven, pain in the ass but a highly skilled swordsman. Or he did in the alternate timeline thing.

Not sure how analogous this is, but he was more than a match for Strahd von Zarovich of the Ravenloft timeline.

People who stab or even touch him are gripped with a chilling cold that numbs their limbs to the point of uselessness.

I don't think he actually has a physical body, to be honest. He's pretty much just armour with a pair of evil glowing eyes but nothing else is inside it. I suppose Witch King could try and sunder it but I doubt that would do much good...the armour isn't worn by Soth, it IS Soth.

[Steven the Lich]

1) No, when i say i don't like Star Trek, but i reorganize some of its good points, i just don't like. Calling him a hack is accurate, because that is what the books is the work of, somebody with no talent. http://anti-shurtugal.com/mission.htm see there
The book is nothing but the work of a hack, somebody without any talent working off of cliches and fridge logic
2) the same way you win real debate, through logic
3) you brought it back from the dead, not I


1) Fancy descriptions don't prove a point. I realize Soth is powerful, i just don't think he can win
2) Um, he got cursed with immortality, nothing special
3) He was defeated by the dark godess, don't mean nobody else coudl hurt him
4) His magic scared a dragon i believe, i don't recall him killing one.


I need to check hte rule book again, but i think they are just freaking powerful, not absurd
from
EE
1) I too, found Eragon a good read. As for your opinion, thats fine. But calling him a hack? Do you have any support for that matter? It seems just plain rude and radical just to say this stuff without proper evidence. I found most of the stuff unique, and while he may have used common lore, he did mix it up and created some spice. Heck, as far as I'm sure, Urgals and Shades were pretty unique, the dragon riders were cool, and as far as I'm sure, the dragon binding hasn't really been used before in the same context as Eragon. Provide evidence for your claim before making it, as making your oppinion public without support just makes you look like a jerk.
2)And, ultimately, what the crowd thinks of you in the end. Are you proposing debate without an audience, in which case cannot be won, even with logic. It is highly unlikely that one in a debate can persuade the other side into their beliefs. That is what happened in LK vs. Sauron, we couldn't persuade you nor you us, and that is why it kept going for some time.
3) Though it wasn't at all settled. Just a point.

1) But describing the character in such powerful forms does have an effect. If you just say "This dude is evil" and that alone, are you really giving the readers a good image to work with in terms of power? No, JRR tolkien gave fancy wording and history for his villains to add effect as well and to give more of an essence for his villains.
2) Yes, so did the WK. Difference? Soth got his cursed immortality on his own and keeps it independently. WK dies when Sauron dies. Soth is more independent.
3) Well... he was killed before, but only by powerful people. So are you saying that a random hobo in the streets can pick up a sword and run it through Soth with ease? The lord of a cursed realm had to give into his demands to keep him from destroying it and himself (Meaning the lord of the realm). He was only defeated by powerful beings of darkness (Who had to take away his undeath to do so, granting him a much longed for gift in the process), and a guy who traveled through time itself! Sounds pretty hard to top with your average adventurers and even epic adventurers.
4) Actually...

Strahd tried to use Soth to his advantage but this only cost him a red dragon which was one of his castle guardians.
He did kill one. :smallwink:


EE, that's a reasonable assumption. But honestly, I have no idea what else could do the job.

As was mentioned earlier, he killed a dragon with a word.

He out duelled Tanis Halfelven, pain in the ass but a highly skilled swordsman. Or he did in the alternate timeline thing.

Not sure how analogous this is, but he was more than a match for Strahd von Zarovich of the Ravenloft timeline.

People who stab or even touch him are gripped with a chilling cold that numbs their limbs to the point of uselessness.

I don't think he actually has a physical body, to be honest. He's pretty much just armour with a pair of evil glowing eyes but nothing else is inside it. I suppose Witch King could try and sunder it but I doubt that would do much good...the armour isn't worn by Soth, it IS Soth. Nicley put, Mr. Scaly.

Oh, and EE, sidenote
http://anti-shurtugal.com/mission.htm
This seems like a site of zealous fanatics when I just read the History.
Case in point.

Let us ponder this for just a second...

Arya is a noble elf princess, who insists on wearing skimpy leather outfits around a horny sixteen-year-old. And then denies the poor boy, telling him he should find someone younger.

"There is something dreadfully wrong with this." I say.

"But..." you say "It's not her fault, she's suffering from shyness and body image issues, by telling him to find someone younger she's merely acting the martyr. The poor girl deserves our pity!"

"Alas" say I, "I wish it were even so, but Nay! Elves are without a doubt the most beautiful creatures in existence, and age makes little or no impression on them."

"But..." you say "Maybe she's right, perhaps he should find someone younger."

"Forsooth." I reply "If it were so, even then would I agree with her most heartily. But Nay! Hast thou forgotten the skimpy leather outfits??? What then could be her purpose in wearing these abominations but to esnare the (almost) innocent young lad in her web of seduction?"

"But...but..." you say "Maybe she just likes wearing leather."

"Verily!" I remark, my tongue laden heavily with the demon, Sarcasm, and my eyes rolling heavenwards "Leather is not in the least bit comfortable, nay, niether is it practical in combat situations. For I say truly unto you, tight leather inhibits movement and flexibility!"

"But...but...but..." you say "Maybe...maybe she's just playing hard-to-get. Maybe she actually will love Eragon."

"Riiight." Respondeth I in typical sarcastic drawl "And get her ass thrown in jail for statutory rape?"

"Er..." Reply you with much scratching of thine noggin, endeavoring to figure out if that actually works.

"THE TRUTH IS!" bellow I with an excess of gusto "ARYA IS A DIRTY @#$%&!!!"

"*gulp*" you gulp

"THE TRUTH IS!!!!" I scream, veins pulsing on my forhead and sweat running down my livid face. "ARYA DESERVES DEATH FOR HER MERCILESS EXPLOITATION OF MALE EMOTIONS!!!!"

"*gasp*" you gasp

"THE TRUTH IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I shriek, jumping up and down, waving my arms frantically and getting tangled in the microphone cord.

"ARYA SHOULD BE SHOT AT DAWN!"

Thankyou, thankyouverymuch ladies and gentlemen.
And honestly, I thought she denied him a relationship because she didn't want him to be distracted from his duties. And I actually never imagined her wearing skimpy leather.
From my oppinion... the site is solely made for mocking Eragon and its author.
My oppinion... the site has no taste, and is vulgar. :smallyuk:
Oh yeah, and that speech is incredibly stupid and violent. Eragon's world doesn't have guns. The rant down from that has less caps, but maybe a more disgusting comparison. The third one... has little to no point... most likely the latter.

[Rowanomicon]

Well I haven't read Eragon, but that rant has a good point and if she didn't want him distracted then she wouldn't wear skimpy outfits.
gratuitous skimpy outfits on elven females is a common and stupid trope of bad fantasy writing (not saying it never appears in good writing, but even when it does it's still silly).

*ahem* Back so Soth and the WK.

WG, passing the test only means that he /is/ a wizard, not that he's a great one. I believe a wizard is required to take the test before learning 1st level spells (could be wrong, but I think it says something about Sleep in Soulforge) and I believe the (not-necessarily-cannon) 3.0 Dragonlance setting book gives level 3 as the level a wizard must take the test and choose robes or else become a renegade wizard and fear retribution.

Also the WK is not longer a mortal, I can't see him being afraid of anything really, not even Sauron. I think he just obeys Sauron fully. I sincerely doubt that the WK can feel fear.

Both combatants are rediculously good swordsmen so I see no big advantage either way.

Soth's magic is, in my opinion, stronger, but it is hard to grade the type of magic that appears in Middle Earth against D&D magic.
Also, as I stated with the LK, I don't see direct damage spells hurting the WK without first doing something to bypass his magical protection. Then again... destroying all his armor etc would mean that he needs to return to Mordor to get re-outfitted by Sauron. So, if you count that as a win, then Soth could probably pull it off.
Furthermore, Power Word Kill will not kill the WK as he is undead.

I can see Soth winning if he casts Cure Serious Wounds or something like that (I'm figuring that positive energy is basically the same as Anti-Sauron/WK magic), but even then he has to touch the WK, which might get risky (see next point).

Is Soth's sword indestructible? All blades perish...

(Just to be clear, it's very hard to touch someone with a sword without getting shanked to high heaven.)

So I guess I was wrong. They're both great swordsmen, but if it moves to melee the WK has a very clear advantage. Can Soth be defeated by weaponly damage?

[warty goblin]

Some examples of Ariakas' power:

- After Soth bitch-slaps him he turns around ready to reduce Soth to a pile of ash with a spell before realizing he is a Death Knight. By this point in the series Weis and Hickman are playing a bit fast and loose with spell levels and suchlike, but no way is burning somebody to a cinder a first level spell.

- He surrounds himself with a magical shield in Neraka potent enough to keep anybody from stabbing him, at least until Raistlin lowers it from a completely different part of the temple complex.

- I'm fairly sure, though I can't prove it atm, that he was involved in the creation of the Draconians.

Some more Soth trivia:
- His armor, sword etc are reasonably close to indestructable from what I can tell. For one thing he's been using the same stuff for 300 odd years, apparently without cleaning or other forms of maintenence. It also survived the fire that destroyed Dargaard Keep, a fire so hot it burned through rock.

- Raistlin is the only living thing Soth has ever met that he fears. Granted, Soth probably doesn't go on Meet 'n' Greet tours of Krynn, but he did spend a good portion of time kicking around Neraka, which was packed to the gills with priests, wizards and warriors of various and sundry power levels. It also clinches my earlier conclusion that Soth could dominate Ariakas, Dalamar and pretty much anybody else who comes to mind.

- Isn't Soth described somewhere as a being that the gods themselves might fear?

[Rowanomicon]

I know that Ariakas is certainly capable of spells higher than first level. I was simply pointing out passing the test alone doesn't rank someone very high on the over all power scale of literature.

Fireball is a spell that would certainly reduce most to ashes (or at least burn them to death).
A good spell, but not overwhelming power.

Anyway, maybe Ariakas is a better parallel for the WK than I first thought, but the WK is still not going to be afraid.

Well, do you think that Soth's sword would break against the WK?

Soth is certainly fearsome (and awesome!) and I do, for the record, think he definitely outranks the WK on the sheer power scale.
I'm just trying to figure out how this might go down.

Good to see you again by the way.

[Steven the Lich]

Well I haven't read Eragon, but that rant has a good point and if she didn't want him distracted then she wouldn't wear skimpy outfits.
gratuitous skimpy outfits on elven females is a common and stupid trope of bad fantasy writing (not saying it never appears in good writing, but even when it does it's still silly).
Actually, it said she had a unadorned leather shirt and unadorned leather pants, but there was nothing about her outfit being skimpy or being tight even. What really caught Eragons eye was her cat-like eyes, her raven black hair, and all. It was not in the leather.

Soth is a powerful being, I'm not sure that the WK's black breath will have any effect on him. I'm sure that plenty of Soth's spells can push WK around a lot as well. His armor survived fire bruning through rock, his sword is black with the blood of countless victims and still useable, and I think it is bound to him as he appears with it every time he forms a new body at the coffer, that I think is qualified as indestructible.

From the new facts I just noticed, WK is doomed to fail. There isn't much to back him up besides numbers of orcs (Which are easily killable and bear not as much quality of Soth's soldiers), while Soth has dragons and draconians and all that. Major difference in power.
Ultimately, WK has little hope. Soth is too epic a character, worthy of being a dark lord of evil. WK stands a better chance alone with Soth than against his armies. Even then, it's bleak.

[Rowanomicon]

reformable and indestrucable are two different things.
I'm still going to go with Soth's sword falling under the category of "all blades" as far as the WK's weapon shattering body goes.

However I still think Soth takes this (though not with ease). I was originally going to make a Soth v Sauron thread, but decided the boards didn't need another Sauron thread.

(and as to the off topic Eragon discussion. If she's not actually wearing skimpy leather then that's a whole different thing.)

[EvilElitest]

I agree that just because Soth was killed by a god doesn't mean that only a god can do it. On the other hand the only other Death Knight I know of was Krell from the Amber & ____ trilogy, who was also done in by more or less a god. The only mortal I can think of who was able to defeat Soth was Raistlin, but seeing as he killed an entire pantheon that's not much of a lower bound either- although Soth recognizes Raistlin's superiority before he goes back in time and aquires all of Fistandantilus' power, so he's not yet at deicide power levels. Raistlin however also makes it perfectly clear that at that time the only reason he hasn't conquered the entire world is because the proposition is too boring to be worth his time.

1) i checked my book, and my book is falling apart so opening it scares me, so in my quick look i noticed the death knight template. They gain 13 powerwords, fear arura, some immunities, resistence to turning, control over mindless undead, the abilty to summon a mount, and a few niffty powers but nothing absurd. Most of Soth's power simply comes from his high level as a fighter
2) Well Raistlin is absurd so....

Now i'm willing to believe that Soth is a better fighter than the WK in raw sword fighting, but in the miltary situation he could be brought down by mass numbers.




1) I too, found Eragon a good read. As for your opinion, thats fine. But calling him a hack? Do you have any support for that matter? It seems just plain rude and radical just to say this stuff without proper evidence. I found most of the stuff unique, and while he may have used common lore, he did mix it up and created some spice. Heck, as far as I'm sure, Urgals and Shades were pretty unique, the dragon riders were cool, and as far as I'm sure, the dragon binding hasn't really been used before in the same context as Eragon. Provide evidence for your claim before making it, as making your oppinion public without support just makes you look like a jerk.
2)And, ultimately, what the crowd thinks of you in the end. Are you proposing debate without an audience, in which case cannot be won, even with logic. It is highly unlikely that one in a debate can persuade the other side into their beliefs. That is what happened in LK vs. Sauron, we couldn't persuade you nor you us, and that is why it kept going for some time.
3) Though it wasn't at all settled. Just a point.

1a) Yes, he is a total hack. he is almost the poster child of a hack. He is utterly and totally talentless. Everything in the book has a total lack of quality, badly written or out right stolen. Allow me to expand
1B) orginial. Sure, in a not at all sort of way
Star wars break down (http://anti-shurtugal.com/starwars.htm)

http://anti-shurtugal.com/emperorjustin.htm

Lord of the rings
(http://anti-shurtugal.com/tolkien.htm)
hell, general cut and paste, fable had more originality (http://anti-shurtugal.com/warthorde.htm)

1c) we have his utter lack of actual writing style
Mary Sues (http://anti-shurtugal.com/derekeen4.htm)
awful character development (http://anti-shurtugal.com/characterdevelopment.htm)
inconsistencies (http://anti-shurtugal.com/inconsistencies.htm)
writing (http://anti-shurtugal.com/technicalities.htm)
prose (http://anti-shurtugal.com/prose.htm)
and those are just run of the mill writers
Eragon is a book which is written without talent. Like, none at all. We go from cliche to cliche and inconsistency to inconsistency without

[EvilElitest]

Oh, and EE, sidenote
http://anti-shurtugal.com/mission.htm
This seems like a site of zealous fanatics when I just read the History.
Case in point.
You should go into propaganda, where half truths and unbacked interpretations are rewarded :smallwink:
Now lets considered what you did
I gave you a link to a site that explains, logically why Eragon is a bad book. I sent you to the mission statement. Not saying that they are all fanatics sounds good, and if you can find one piece to back it up it works. But here is the thing, you didn't look into the history. That article is in fact under Miscellaneous under rants. Now i'm confused how you got there. I'd expect you'd look under maybe prose, or writing, or character, or if you want real quality (albeit a bit too pro Harry Potter for my taste) the Epistles. But instead you chose and admitting bad rant and used it to try to discredit the entire site. Which is bad form, and i suspect deliberate. You didn't go for hte history, you went instantly for rants. Which is an odd train of thought. Now if it was an honest mistake, i will defend the site and all of my complaints with eragon with the best writing on teh sight


Why So Many Young Authors Despise Inheritance

There are many popular books in the world. Not all of them are particularly deserving of their popularity. Others are. But few popular novels attract as much hatred as the Inheritance trilogy by young adult Christopher Paolini. On forums all over the internet debates over its quality are carrying on, and often they are quite vicious. The question here is – why? Why do non-fans of this series hate it so much, and why are they so vocal about their dislike? And why are so many of them other young authors not much different from Paolini himself? As fans have demanded time and time again, why don’t these critics simply move on and read something else?

The answer, I think, is quite simple. Other young writers object to Inheritance because they are young writers. In other words they are developing writers hoping to be published one day. This can and has led fans to accuse them of jealousy. This is a false argument which violates the famous Ebert’s Law, but is it true? For the most part, probably not.

In answering the question of why young writers hate the Inheritance series, it is important to note something which most non-writers probably aren’t aware of: publishing a book is not an easy thing to do. In fact it is extremely hard and, for some, impossible. If you were to ask an author with at least one book on the market about their publishing quest, they will almost invariably tell you it took them years of hard work. Not weeks. Not months. Years. And for some it can take a lifetime. The quest for publication usually works like this: an author writes a book. He thinks it is good enough to be published. He then begins writing proposal letters to publishers and, perhaps, seeks out the services of a literary agent. After sending those proposal letters, it’s all a matter of waiting. Then, often months after the initial sending of the letters, the replies come back. It is likely almost to the point of absolute certainty that they will all be rejections. Every professional writer has had rejection letters, and some have entire folders full of them. The legendary J.K.Rowling, for example, was supposedly rejected by nearly every publisher in the United Kingdom. And this is an author who has gone on to make millions and who, many agree, writes quality material.

Young, unpublished authors like the owners of this site are aware of that. They know that years of hard and unrewarding work await them in their quest to attain that distant, shining thing – publication. They long for it. They live for it. It is all they dare to dream of, and they would give anything to achieve it.
And then, quite suddenly, this young man called Christopher Paolini arrives on the scene. He’s published. Twice. He is a bestseller. He has been on TV. He is an international celebrity, and all because he published a book which he famously began writing at age fifteen and finished at nineteen. It all sounds so wonderful, does it not? A child prodigy, according to some. Look at what he has achieved! He’s living his dream and getting rich off it! He has a million fans! He is a genius!

But here’s something those young writers know which most of his fans do not: people who begin writing novels at fifteen are extremely common. There are thousands of them. Many of these young writers began writing before that age. Some of them are still at that age. In essence, the only difference between Mr Paolini and those young writers is that he is published. And he is not published because he wrote those letters and got those rejections. He is not published because he worked hard. He is not published because he is a genius. He is published because he has family connections. He is published because his parents own their own publishing company. He was picked up by Knopf because he did not have to go to school like those other young writers do. Instead he was free to travel the country – probably at great expense – publicising his book. Knopf took him on because they saw a great marketing opportunity in such a young client with his own novel. Most likely they wanted their own J.K.Rowling, and he would be sufficient to fill that role. So they published Eragon and began an aggressive marketing campaign, hailing their prize as a prodigy.

The problem is this: he is not a prodigy. He is, at best, a writer of average skill. If he had been forced to spend years reworking, revising and editing as writers normally do, he could have been very good. As far as young writers go he is perhaps a little above average. But as writers, period, go, he is mediocre. However, the public does not seem to be aware of this. They repeat what Knopf told them, leading some to think that he is still fifteen whereas he is in fact twenty-two and by no means a child any more. Young children and those inexperienced in the fantasy genre find his works accessible and admire him for his success, perhaps encouraged by of his rather naïve and innocent personal charm.

However, young writers like himself despise him. They loathe his books, they loathe the things he says, and most of all they loathe what he stands for. To them he is not a hero, or a genius, or a good writer. The fact of the matter is this: he did not go through those years of hard work. Instead of suffering all the anguish and self-doubt which a writer usually must, he had the world effectively handed to him on a silver platter. Does he have that folder of rejection letters? Does he have that terror that he will never realise his dream? No. Instead he has something which is normally reserved only for those of rare and special ability, something which should have gone to a truly original and distinguished writer. Not one who churns out simplistic, unoriginal airport novels aimed at a young or inexperienced audience.

So those young, unpublished writers are not impressed but enraged. By reaching this high point in the way he did, by becoming famous without hard work or significant ability, he has offended everything they hold dear. He has given the public the impression that publishing is easy, that near-plagiarism of other people’s ideas is acceptable behaviour, and that young authors do not know how to write. They are afraid that this phenomena is symptomatic of the corruption of literature and the transformation of writers from closeted, serious, hard-working people into vapid celebrities whose only gift is being charming on chat-shows.

And when they try and share this fear with others, they are all too frequently met with derision, with accusations of jealousy, intimations that they lack talent, and no form of respect for their opinions. Their refusal to accept Mr Paolini as one of their own means that his fans treat them with scorn, perhaps believing that it is they, and not he, who are phoney writers or pretenders. Not being writers themselves, they cannot know about the passion that drives these people. All they see are a group of individuals who hate what they love and won’t be silenced. They can’t understand their anger.

The writers are angry because they feel their efforts are being mocked. And they are afraid that, if they should ever realise their dream and become published, that status will have been degraded and so mean less than it did before.

Let me put it this way: if you had spent years painting an exquisite and precise picture of a magnificent old building and, having finally completed it after spending what feels like your entire life working at it, perfecting your craft and subordinating all else to getting that painting finished, and then the art gallery turned you down in favour of a piece of canvas which someone had spent an afternoon randomly splattering paint onto, how would you feel?

Bad writing

As established in the first Epistle, other writers – and not just young writers, as a matter of fact – consider the Inheritance series unworthy of its popularity because it is poorly written. Writers should of course be expected to know what they are talking about – published or no. And it is not just other writers who think this. The famous (or imfamous, depending on your point of view) Ivy is a professional editor as well as a writer. And people working in publishing – agents, proofreaders, executives, etc. – have agreed with her sentiments. It is common knowledge amongst people in ‘the business’ that Inheritance is merely a sensationalist popular phenomena. Nobody with experience in writing and publishing thinks of it as ‘literature’. Instead the common view among them is that the Inheritance series – Eragon and Eldest both – are ‘airport novels’. Readable, easily accessible, and very little else. It is only fans of the books who believe they are innovative, that they are literature, that they will last for longer than a few months after the publication of Empire, the final book in the trilogy. Fans may be inclined to wonder how the Epistler and others like him can so confidently predict that the trilogy will be quickly forgotten once it has been completed and released. This is what Epistle the Second will attempt to answer.

The reason – there are others, but this is the most important – for these predictions is very simple. The Inheritance series will be quickly forgotten because it is an example of bad writing. Not once in the pages of Eragon or Eldest does the quality of the prose rise above mediocre, and much of the time during Eldest it is not just mediocre but terrible. Epistle the Second will explain, using sub-headings and examples, just how this is so.

Problem One: Clunky. And. Robotic. Emotionless. Writing.

Imagine a friend of yours has just read a good book. He’s got that special glow, that satisfied expression. Clearly, he really enjoyed that book. Here’s an experiment: ask him just why he enjoyed it so much. The odds are very good that he’ll say it was because he really cared about what happened in it. “I just really connected with the characters”, he might say. Or, “it was so exciting! My heart was pounding!”. Anything along these lines would imply that he was able to connect, emotionally, with the characters and the story. In other words, he found himself caring about what happened. Every good book makes its reader care about what happens, and the level of emotional involvement depends on how good the writing is. That’s it. A sufficiently skilled writer can make you care about anyone. George R R Martin, for example, is able to make the reader sympathise with a traitorous murderer who had an incestuous relationship with his own sister. This is because he is an uncommonly good writer. It is a matter of skill, and enough stress cannot be placed on this point.

However, Paolini is unable to do this. At no point during Eragon and Eldest does the reader really care about what becomes of any of the characters. In other words, there is no emotional investment. The reader keeps on reading in the vague hope of finding out what happens next, but if the main character were to die he or she would almost certainly be left unmoved. Even the most rabid and obsessive fans of the series rarely, if ever, express any concern about the ultimate fate of any of the characters. Some even admit to caring more about minor characters such as Angela the witch than about Eragon himself.

This cannot be argued with. It is a solid, immutable fact. Nobody is emotionally invested in what will take place in Empire. And the blame for this rests squarely on the shoulders of Christopher Paolini. Love him or hate him, it is a flat fact that he has not the ability to put emotion into his writing. It is lack of skill on his part, not lack of intelligence on the part of his readers, that makes Eragon and Eldest so hollow and devoid of spirit.

And how, you may be wondering, does the Epistler know this? The answer is easy. Here is an extract from the ending of Eldest, when Eragon is thinking over the revelation that Morzan is his father.

“Eragon always assumed he would be glad to learn the identity of his father. Now that he had, the knowledge revolted him. When he was younger, he often entertained himself by imagining that his father was someone grand and important, though Eragon knew the opposite was far more likely. Still, it never occurred to him, even in his most extravagant daydreams, that he might be the son of a Rider, much less one of the Forsworn.
It turned a daydream into a nightmare. I was sired by a monster.... My father was the one who betrayed the Riders to Galbatorix. It left Eragon feeling sullied.”

Let us analyse this. Imagine for a moment that it is you who just found out your father was an evil man. Imagine you had just been told your father was a terrorist responsible for murdering innocent civilians. Imagine if your father was known the world over for having beheaded a helpless captive on camera, and shown no remorse for his actions. Imagine that. How would you feel? Unless you happened to agree that terrorist activities are just and noble, it can be assumed that you would be distraught, inconsolable. Most likely you would cry, be depressed, try endlessly to find reasons why it can’t be true. But Eragon does none of those things. All that happens – all the readers gets in the way of an emotional reaction – is the obligatory single tear, a paragraph of shouting, and finally this tiny section where Eragon thinks it over. This part should have been the most emotional of all, as it would logically be taking place when Eragon is able to think more calmly and begins trying to come to terms with the truth. But it isn’t. The writing tells you that Eragon is upset, rather than showing you that fact. And to make it worse, it does the telling in an entirely innappropriate manner, using formal language which makes it feel stiff and distant. Read aloud, this paragraph feels like someone making a formal statement in a court of law. Try reading it aloud, and the most fitting voice to read it in would be a flat monotone. It has no emotion in it. None. A robot could have written it. To cap it all, we then move onto the next paragraph and find that Eragon gets over it. That’s it. In the space of ten minutes he forgets how upset he is, and manages to rationalise the situation, and then everything is fine and dandy again. Observe:

“But no...As he healed a man’s broken spine, a new way of viewing the situation occurred to him, one that restored a measure of his self-confidence: Morzan may be my parent, but he is not my father. Garrow was my father. He raised me. He taught me how to live well and honorably, with integrity. I am who I am because of him. Even Brom and Oromis are more my father than Morzan. And Roran is my brother, not Murtagh.
Eragon nodded, determined to maintain that outlook. Until then, he had refused to completely accept Garrow as his father. And even though Garrow was dead, doing so relieved Eragon, gave him a sense of closure, and helped to ameliorate his distress over Morzan.”

This is not how a human being behaves. It simply isn’t. This is how a computer thinks. Cold, logical, utterly emotionless. No-one could possibly recover from such a painful blow so quickly, unless they were sociopathic. And, once again, this is written in the same formal, flat style. It even shows evidence of Thesaurus syndrome. No-one thinks the word ‘ameliorate’. Most likely you will have to look it up before you know what it means. It is a distraction. It does not add colour. Nor does it solve the problem that this passage is hollow and spiritless. How can the reader possibly hope to feel for Eragon’s sufferings if he himself cannot do it?

Here is an example of how a more skilled writer might portray this part of the story:

“Eragon wandered through the battlefield, surrounded by dead and dying men. He could hear the screams and moans of pain from those still alive, and thought grimly that for many of them this would be their only dirge and farewell. But somehow he could not feel for them. He could only feel rage at all that had happened, and guilt that he should be angry. What right did he have to rage against injustice? He was not the noble and righteous Rider he had thought he was. He was the son of a monster. The seed of a traitor and murderer lived inside him, and there was nothing he could do about it. It was irrational, he realised later, but he could not help but feel as if he had betrayed them all by his very existence. Eragon felt his heart shudder inside him, and tried his best not to cry. That would be weak. But he couldn’t help it. Hot tears poured down his cheeks, and he gave himself over to despair”

Not the best writing in the world, but still better than the extract you just read. How so? Because it actually goes inside Eragon’s head. It acknowledges the fact that he is feeling miserable, and shows his sense of duty, along with all else, being subsumed by his emotions. Human beings are emotional creatures, not automatons. And whether he likes it or not a writer is expected to know that and portray them accordingly. Paolini cannot or has not done this.

Problem Two: Purple Prose

Purple prose is a term for writing that is excessively ornate and flowery to the point that it distracts from the plot. It generally refers to description, and in Eldest especially purple prose appears again and again. Here is a prime example of purple prose, although there were many to choose from.

“Every day since leaving the outpost of Ceris was a hazy dream of warm afternoons spent
paddling up Eldor Lake and then the Gaena River. All around them, water gurgled through the tunnel of verdant pines that wound ever deeper into Du Weldenvarden.
Eragon found traveling with the elves delightful. Narí and Lifaen were perpetually smiling, laughing, and singing songs, especially when Saphira was around. They rarely looked elsewhere or spoke of another subject but her in her presence.
However, the elves were not human, no matter the similarity of appearance. They moved too quickly, too fluidly, for creatures born of simple flesh and blood. And when they spoke, they often used roundabout expressions and aphorisms that left Eragon more confused than when they began. In between their bursts of merriment, Lifaen and Narí would remain silent for hours, observing their surroundings with a glow of peaceful rapture on their faces. If Eragon or Orik attempted to talk with them during their contemplation, they would receive only a word or two in response.”

Reading this passage made the Epistler feel physically ill. Why? Because there is simply no reason to write so many words and say so little. A more formal expression for writing of this kind is simply ‘overwritten’. This is not beauty or eloquence. This is the author trying to sound beautiful and eloquent by imitating Tolkien. It does not conjure a vivid mental image, but instead bores and irritates.

Purple prose is not the only problem; verbosity is another, related one. Verbosity means wordiness, or an excessive use of words. Every good author knows that economy of language is important. It is a measure of a writer’s skill if he can say a lot using few words. Paolini does not do this. Everything he says is explained laboriously and almost nothing is described in less than a paragraph. He uses many words to say very little. What is worse is that much of the time the way things look is unimportant. For example, he spends a lot of time in this paragraph describing the two elves, even though after the party arrives at Ellesméra they disappear and are never seen again. Hence it was completely unnecessary to introduce them in such loving detail. Developing their actual characters would have been good, but this does not happen. In fact, Paolini draws so little distinction between them that he describes them together rather than individually. And this leads into the next problem.

Problem Three: Worldbuilding and Characterisation for Dummies

Creating an entire world is a hard thing to do. To make one that is realistic, interesting and believable can and does take years. Years. Even lifetimes. The world of Lord of the Rings took a lifetime to create, and even after the Silmarillion had been written and Tolkien was dead there was still a lot left to be uncovered. So creating a world is a slow and involved process. If Paolini had done it, he would still be working on Eragon. But that would have meant putting in a lot of effort for no immediate reward, and today’s modern mind isn’t interested in that. Besides which, if he had waited there would have been no chance to exploit his young age, because he would have been well into his forties by the time he was ready.

Paolini got around this easily enough: he didn’t create a world at all. Instead he took the one which Tolkien had already made, added a few bits and pieces of other, similar fantasy worlds, tweaked it in one or two places, and called it finished. That is why it took him so little time to have his first novel finished – he took shortcuts. Unfortuantely, he did the same thing with his characters. A real character, according to every true writer on the planet, is a person. They live, eat, sleep, think, dream, fight, cry, fall in love and do everything that real people do. The very best characters feel real and alive to the reader as well as the writer, and so endear themselves and make their story come to life as well.

The Inheritance series does not have characters like that. Instead of living, breathing people, the world of Alagaësia is populated by stereotypes, archetypes, entities and automatons.

For example, the villain. Galbatorix. To date he has not appeared in person at any point in the books, and thus we are given an idea of his character by other characters, who describe him, his past and his actions. And this is all we get. We hear almost nothing of him from people who are not his enemies, hence we only see one view – the one that says he is mad, evil, cruel and tyrannical. That’s it. That’s all we ever get. This being so, how can we truly feel angry toward him or care about his actions? Villains, just like heroes, need personalities and Galbatorix has had no opportunity to display one.

With Eragon, the hero, the opposite is true. Or is it? Unlike Galbatorix he remains central to the plot and is rarely not around. The bulk of the story is told through his eyes. This means plenty of opportunities to develop him as a character. This being so, what do we know about him? He’s brave, impulsive, somewhat naïve, hates Galbatorix with a passion and harbours unrequited love for Arya. But that’s all we know about him.

In spite of the fact that we know all this, Eragon still fails to be a fully fleshed out, three-dimensional character. The reason for this is fairly simple: he is never developed beyond what is absolutely necessary for the plot. He says, does and feels what the plot requires him to, and no more. The so-called ‘epic romance’ (Paolini’s own words, from Eragon) is limited to Eragon’s immature lust toward Arya the elvish woman. He rarely if ever makes a serious mistake, and when he does it is forgiven and forgotten almost immediately and never has any significant repercussions for him. For example, in Eldest it is revealed that he accidently put a curse on a small child he was supposed to be blessing. In a properly developed book with properly developed characters, there would be consequences for Eragon. For example, he may become unpopular among some people. His reputation might suffer. He could suddenly be deemed unfit to perform complex magic lest he make another mistake. He could suffer a period of self-doubt and need reassuring. But none of this happens. Instead Eragon feels embarrassed for an extremely short space of time, apologises to the child and offers to try and reverse the spell, and then all is well again.

This is not the only deficiency in Eragon’s personality. Many, many important things are never adressed. How does Eragon feel about being a Rider and having so much responsibility rest on his shoulders? Is he afraid he won’t be strong enough to do what he must? Does he miss his old, easier way of life? Does he ever wonder if war is the only answer and whether they could try negotiating with Galbatorix instead of resorting to violence? What does he think of himself? Is he humble? Narcissistic? Does he think he is good-looking or does he wish his nose was smaller? What kinds of food does he enjoy?

Questions like these may seem unimportant, but if they were answered they would go a long way toward developing Eragon and making him come alive. But they are either briefly skipped over or avoided altogether, and the result is, of course, a flat, cardboard cutout of a character. Even fans often claim they are more interested by side characters than by Eragon himself. And, unfortunately, these problems are present with every other character in the series. The ways in which they relate to each other are simple and clear-cut, with no ambiguities or subtleties present. Every character who dislikes Eragon is either on ‘the bad side’ or is unimportant. All the important characters on ‘the good side’ adore him, and he accepts this without question. This points to another problem – this being the fact that Eragon is a Mary-Sue (or Gary-Stu in this case). Mary-Sues tend to be ridiculously powerful – and given that Eragon is a Dragon-Rider, expert magician, elite swordsman and, by the end of Eldest, an elf/human hybrid with heightened senses, he fits that part to a tee. They also tend to be, yes, loved by every good character and hated by every bad character. There are other Mary-Sue characteristics which Eragon also fits, but these are the most important.

And so, with a world which is essentially Middle-Earth, a hero who is a Mary-Sue and a villain the reader has no chance to hate, it is safe to say that the Inheritance series has failed to provide a living, breathing story.

Problem Four: Intellectual Theft. Yes, Theft

The most common complaint from critics: the unnecessarily derivative and unoriginal world and plot of Inheritance. Many have even called it plagiarism. Fans are not happy about this. However, when challenged to name something from the books which is completely, 100% original, they have been unable to do so. This is yet another thing which cannot be disproved. Derivatives, the borrowing of ideas and similarities between books are by no means unknown. They are very common, in fact. The problem with Inheritance is not so much that it is derivitave but that it is nothing else. In other words, it is not unoriginality that is the problem, but lack of originality. Even the most imitative work in the world can be excused if it contains enough truly original material, but Inheritance does not have this. Absolutely nothing in it is special, nothing unique. Instead it is all borrowed material, linked together by more borrowed material. The list of derivatives is long and has been repeated many times, including elsewhere on this site, but a couple of less well-known ones are as follows.

The werecat: some have claimed – incorrectly – that the idea of a cat which sometimes changes into a human is original. It is not: a werecat appeared in Garth Nix’s book Sabriel.

The white raven: again, not original – white, talking ravens appear in the Edge Chronicles by Paul Stewart and there often serve as companions for human characters.

Even more damningly, the very few tweaks included in order to make the ‘borrowed’ ideas appear unique are either crude or laughably silly. The elves, for example, which are obvious transplants from Tolkien, down to the immortality, the mysterious origin in another land which they are now going to return to and so on, have been given a ‘unique’ philosophy and social system based on the idea that life is sacred. Not only is this poorly done; being frequently preachy and patently ridiculous (the idea that a people so ‘pure’ that won’t even kill animals for food has so few qualms about killing enemies in battle quite frankly beggars belief), but it makes the debt to Tolkien even more obvious – if the elves were the author’s own idea, he would not be making an effort to make them ‘special’ – however clumsily it has been done.

The tweaking – which also includes feeble attempts to respell names by shuffling a few letters here and there – is not just there to hide unoriginality. It is also there to cover the author’s back. Although the various thefts from other books are not sufficient to land the author in court, they are still obvious enough to be spotted, and they have been, numerous times. This near-plagiarism, although just barely legal, is frowned upon in the literary world. It also means that since, as Ivy puts it, the book brought nothing new to the table, there is little reason for it to be remembered. After all, there is nothing in it that can’t be found elsewhere, handled by more skilled writers into the bargain.

Problem Five: Preachy, preachy

A problem many young authors encounter at some point. After they have mastered – or think they have mastered – the basics of telling a story, beginning authors will start experimenting with the notion of inserting morals into what they write. This is a bad idea, and most authors eventually realise it, because moral lessons which have been deliberately inserted into stories inevitably appear forced and didactic. In Eldest Paolini betrays the fact that he has not yet learnt this, and he includes a few glaringly obvious anti-religious messages, as seen in the extracts below.

““I deny nothing, only ask what good might be accomplished if your wealth were spread among the needy, the starving, the homeless, or even to buy supplies for the Varden. Instead, you’ve piled it into a monument to your own wishful thinking.”
“Enough!” The dwarf clenched his fists, his face mottled. “Without us, the crops would wither in drought. Rivers and lakes would flood. Our flocks would give birth to one-eyed beasts. The very heavens would shatter under the gods’ rage!” Arya smiled. “Only our prayers and service prevent that from happening. If not for Helzvog, where—”
Eragon soon lost track of the argument. He did not understand Arya’s vague criticisms of Dûrgrimst Quan, but he gathered from Gannel’s responses that, in some indirect way, she had implied that the dwarf gods did not exist, questioned the mental capacity of every dwarf who entered a temple, and pointed out what she took to be flaws in their reasoning— all in a pleasant and polite voice.”

And yet, somehow, we are expected to agree and sympathise with her. This segment is particularly annoying because it assumes that the reader will automatically side with Arya… even though there is no reason given to do so. In fact this part is a collossal misjudgement on Paolini’s part, as it does nothing more than offend people with religious beliefs and also make Arya appear rude and self-righteous.

Later on, the subject comes up again when Eragon asks Oromis about what the elves believe in:

““And you don’t put stock in gods.”
“We give credence only to that which we can prove exists. Since we cannot find evidence that gods, miracles, and other supernatural things are real, we do not trouble ourselves about them. If that were to change, if Helzvog were to reveal himself to us, then we would accept the new information and revise our position.”
“It seems a cold world without something... more.”
“On the contrary,” said Oromis, “it is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our own actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment. I won’t tell you what to believe, Eragon. It is far better to be taught to think critically and then be allowed to make your own decisions than to have someone else’s notions thrust upon you. You asked after our religion, and I have answered you true. Make of it what you will.””

It could hardly be more clear which side Paolini is on here. The fact that he appears to be unaware that moralistic writing is unlikely to win him any admiration speaks volumes about his ignorance about writing for an audience. Whether you agree with him or not, it is hard to feel anything but irritation over having these morals forced down your throat. Again, this is something a more seasoned and talented writer would know better than to do.

Problem Six: Dullsville Arizona

The final and most sweeping problem of all is this: the Inheritance series is simply boring. What with the emotionless writing, shallow world and characters, and forced, obviously morality, the books simply collapse in on themselves and become tedious. If the reader does not care about Eragon or his struggle against the Empire, then there is no reason to read on. In reading Eragon and Eldest, all the reader can summon is, at best, vague curiosity. Capping this off are other problems – the slow pacing, the needlessly meandering plot, the black and white morality (evil is always ugly and black, good is always beautiful and shining white), and the forced and ridiculously archaic dialogue. All this put together does not make for a gripping read.

[EvilElitest]

going on



Epistle the Fourth
In His Heart Lay Dragons… or Maybe Not

“I have visions of lizards. Not just little rock lizards, or even something as big as an alligator, no – I see gigantic, majestic flying dragons. I have visions of them all the time, whether in the shower, sitting on the couch or riding in the car. The problem with seeing dragons is that they tend to take over your mind. And once that happens, you can go a little crazy. Which is probably why I became a published author at eighteen”

~Christopher Paolini

Such a sweet note with which to begin the next Epistle. Any uninformed person, reading it, would be led to believe that it is Paolini’s love of dragons which led him to ‘become a published author at eighteen’ (such modesty! The Epistler can scarcely contain his admiration!). As we all know, the hero of the Inheritance series is Eragon, who is a dragon-rider. His partner and steed is Saphira, the wise and beautiful blue dragon. At various times, Paolini has claimed that the most important part of the story is the relationship between Eragon and Saphira, who are mentally and emotionally bonded and whose destinies are irrevocably entwined:

“The kernel of the story [in Eragon] is about a young boy finding a dragon egg. When Saphira hatched, I didn't know how intelligent I was going to make her. But when Eragon first saw Saphira – I saw her so clearly, she was so beautiful with sapphire-blue scales, that I felt like she had to be this incredible character.”

And:

“I knew Eragon was going to become closely linked with her (Saphira) because they share feelings and thoughts.”

There is only one problem with this. Very well, the Epistler lied; there are several problems with this. But the main one is that Saphira is not an ‘incredible’ character and that she and Eragon are not all that ‘closely linked’. In fact she and her relationship with Eragon are one of the most hollow and disappointing parts of the books. Their relationship, far from being a central part of the story, is extremely shallow and uninteresting. As Paolini famously (and idiotically) said; “characters are born out of necessity”. It is certainly true that his characters are born out of necessity, or at least that he treats them as if they are, and Saphira is probably the most striking example of this. She is, at bottom, a flying, talking plot device. And the other dragons in the story are equally unmemorable. Far from making dragons the focus of the story, Paolini handles them very uninterestingly – physically speaking they are identical to the most stereotyped, boring version of dragons which readers have seen a million times before, character-wise they are little different than the non-dragonish characters and, all in all, they have nothing striking or unique about them. And, of course, bear in mind that there is a total of exactly two dragon characters in the story – Saphira and Glaedr. And they serve exactly two purposes: to provide ‘wisdom’ (or at least a lame imitation of what Paolini thinks passes for wisdom) and to make their riders more powerful. That’s all. Although Saphira occasionally provides some painfully unfunny comic relief.

Epistle the Fourth shall examine the characters of Saphira and Glaedr in order to explore this point, and will also discuss the handling of dragons generally, and both you and he will find out whether Paolini’s claims about being obsessed with dragons are as lame and meaningless as they appear to be.

Saphira

Saphira hatches at the beginning of Eragon, as is well-known. Depressingly, given her excuse for a character arc following this event, her hatching contains a modicum of interest. At first, while she is still an infant, she has no dialogue. This adds an element of mystery to her – the reader does not know what she is thinking, but he does know that she’s intelligent. It makes her feel a little alien, and the reader is intrigued by her, as well as moved by her inherent cuteness – a newly-hatched dragon with big dewy eyes is automatically cute. It provides some welcome relief and interest in the story, since until this point the reader has been forced to spend all their time with Eragon – the thick-headed, whiny and singularly unlikeable ‘hero’ – and very little has happened so far that contains any interest (a word of warning to developing writers – boring opening chapters in which nothing happens are a very, very bad idea). Hereafter we see Saphira begin to grow and develop, and watch as Eragon tries to find a way to deal with her sudden entry into his life. This part of the book is actually moderately enjoyable, as we see Eragon start to become fond of Saphira, and she remains voiceless, expressing herself through expressions and actions instead. At this point she reminds the reader of a cat or dog – and as owners of either pet will know, cats and dogs have ways of communicating their feelings to their owners in a way that goes beyond mere words. So far, so good – Saphira is an animal and acts like one, and is also cute. Not exactly ‘majestic’, but still endearing.

The Epistler advises readers to treasure this part of the book, because not long afterwards the bottom begins to fall out of it. Saphira begins to speak.

This scene is easily mockeable; Eragon starts to hear her voice in his head (the dragons are telepathic, which will be dealt with later). At first all she says is his name over and over again (this becomes quite irritating), and when he crabbily asks her if that’s all she can say she says ‘yes’. ‘Now it has a sense of humour’, Eragon thinks. Sadly, yes, and the reader will be subjected to an agonisingly long string of examples over the course of the rest of the book and into the sequel.

Thereafter we are treated to a scene where Eragon names Saphira. This part would possibly be interesting, but for the fact that it was lifted almost word-for-word from a book called Jeremy Thatcher: Dragon Hatcher, which Paolini admits was his favourite book as a child (for some reason he seems to think it is all right to steal from books he particularly enjoyed. Still, if one must steal, why not steal from the best?). Shortly after this, Eragon starts sulking over the fact that his cousin Roran is planning to leave home and get married. Luckily, Saphira is there to comfort our self-centred brat of a hero:

“Saphira was a balm for Eragon’s frustration. He could talk freely with her; his emotions were completely open to her mind, and she understood him better than anyone else.”

The text then goes on to talk about how she goes through a ‘growth spurt’ during this time, and the Epistler is left to tear his hair out in frustration. What, exactly is wrong with this little segment? It reveals just how clueless Paolini is about character development. It’s a classic case of telling rather than showing. So Saphira understands Eragon better than anyone else. Any author – ANY author who knows anything about his art – would know how this ought to have been handled. The reader should not be TOLD that Saphira understands Eragon better than anyone else. It should be SHOWN. Instead of a few sentences, there should have been a scene to demonstrate that Saphira understands Eragon better than anyone else. Taking a shortcut like this is an extremely bad move. If Paolini actually cared about the relationship between Eragon and Saphira, he would had dwelt on this point. He would have shown, not told. The focus isn’t on their developing relationship at all; instead it is on Eragon’s endless complaining over Roran leaving. As if it weren’t bad enough that Saphira has been shoved into the background (where she remains until the plot requires her to do something), the reader is also given more reasons to dislike Eragon – his objections to Roran leaving make him look very childish indeed. Saphira’s growth into adulthood and thus into an adult character is skipped over in exactly the same careless way. Many have complained about this and said they would have liked to see more of her babyhood, but this is not provided.

Worse still is that the character she becomes is nowhere near as interesting as the one she started out as. As one reviewer on Amazon.com put it; ‘She’s like this talking, perfect Lassie’. After Saphira begins talking, she reveals that she doesn’t have to spend time learning anything thanks to the magic of racial memory (this is an actual and extremely loopy pseudo-scientific theory long since disproved). “I may be younger than you in years, but I am ancient in my thoughts”, as she puts it toward the end of the book.

This is nothing short of pathetic. Saphira is only a few months old; a baby, to all intents and purposes, but she speaks and acts as if she had lived for centuries. Paolini explains it away with the reliable old Deus ex Machina known as ‘magic’, but it is still ridiculous and unbelievable. It feels as if Saphira the adult – Eragon’s infodumping grandma, as one person called her – simply came out of nowhere, fully-formed and knowing more than Eragon. So there is already a problem with the oh-so-deep relationship between her and Eragon – it’s unequal. If they were truly partners and equals, they should have developed side-by-side, both learning about the world and slowly becoming stronger and wiser. But no. Instead Saphira becomes a female counterpart to Brom – another wise old mentor who has to steer the wayward young hero onto his Path of Destiny, etc and so forth. Their mental bond is a very shallow one – in essence it is limited to their being able to communicate telepathically and occasionally share images of things they have seen. That’s it. They don’t share their emotions or have any kind of deep understanding – most of the time Eragon is nagging at Saphira because she won’t do what he wants, or she is lecturing him for being stupid. Much of the time they feel more like mother and son than partners. They are very much like Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket – one is naïve and stupid (and also made out of wood), and the other is the worldly-wise character who must do all his thinking for him and generally teach him about life.

A way to make Eragon and Saphira equal would have been to have them both act as if they were young. If they were BOTH immature and inexperienced, the reader could have seen them grow and develop together, learning from each other and the world around them. Having Saphira magically not need to learn anything means that the focus is taken off her and is instead placed on Eragon, the eternally ignorant child. So their relationship is not an equal one and thus it does not feel as if they are truly linked on that deep, magical level.

As for Saphira… what exactly does she do in Eragon? The Epistler decided to make a list:

1. She hatches and bonds with Eragon, thus turning him into a magical super-warrior

2. She drags him away from his uncle’s farm, thus dooming this poor abused minor character to a melodramatic death

3. She accompanies Eragon on his subsequent journey, remaining off-screen for much of the time, and provides a string of amusing or pseudo-philosophical remarks

4. She helps rescue him from Gil’ead

5. She distracts Durza so that Eragon can kill him

…and that’s about it. Bear in mind that the book Eragon is hundreds of pages in length. Saphira’s role in the plot is quite a small one. She does less than Brom, less than Murtagh, and far less than Eragon. She barely even counts as a sidekick for our hero. Although Eragon’s character development is minimal (something of a Paolini trademark), hers is even less. Much of the book’s very dull plot consists of monotonous travelling – pages and pages of it. Eragon and Brom ride along on horses together (not much actual dragon-riding is done by Our Hero), and Brom teaches Eragon about swordplay and magic and other boring things. Meanwhile Saphira… flies overhead. Staying high so no-one sees her. They stay in Teirm for a while, where Eragon meets an old friend of Brom, has his fortune told in the marketplace, throws a tantrum over the evil slave trade (which he forgets about awfully quickly), and nearly gets caught by guards. As for Saphira, she hangs around outside the city while all this is going on and does, well, nothing. Aside from acting as a convenient mental telephone to help Eragon and Brom stay in touch, anyway. Truly, there never was a dragon more magnificent.

But, the reader may protest, what about Eldest? Saphira does much more than just hide and be Eragon’s conscience there!

Very well. Here is another list of what Saphira does within the pages of the Red Book:

1. Stops Eragon dating a sorceress (matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match, indeed)

2. Accompanies him on the long, long, very long trip to Ellesméra

3. Undergoes some sort of training with Glaedr, most of which we don’t see and could care less about

4. Tries to get it on with her senile teacher, much to the reader’s disgust (however, she’s still happy to tell Eragon to stop hitting on Arya. Hypocrisy much?)

5. Fights alongside Eragon on the Burning Plain

Now, in Eldest, since our heroes are with the Varden, it’s no longer necessary for Saphira to stay in hiding all the time. Therefore, we should in theory be seeing more of her. But we don’t. Or, at least, she’s around but doesn’t do anything. Her character becomes even worse than it was in Eragon, where she at least asserted herself occasionally. But in Eldest she stops lecturing Eragon all the time and becomes… nothing. This is where we see her finally become what Paolini really intended her to be from the beginning – an accessory for Eragon. She’s no longer a real character; all she does is stay by Eragon and agree with him all the time, and carry him around like an overgrown horse with wings. We could almost imagine Eragon keeping her in his trophy cabinet next to his archery prize. Other characters adore Eragon because he’s a Rider (oh, and he killed Durza), and he’s only a Rider because he has Saphira. Without her he’d be just another idiot with a shiny sword (which he more or less is anyway, but let it pass). This is Saphira’s function; she makes Eragon cooler and more powerful. When he attends councils and gets involved in some boring political struggles, she does absolutely nothing. Many people, even in official publications (eg. the Entertainment Weekly article which named Eldest the worst book of 2005) have referred to Saphira as ‘the hero’s pet dragon’. The Epistler has a strong suspicion that Paolini is annoyed by this, but the truth is that Saphira, along with all the other dragons, more or less IS just a pet. A talking pet, maybe, but still a pet. The Epistler is reminded of occasions where someone is walking their dog and other people come up to pat the dog and compliment the owner on having a nice pet. In the Inheritance trilogy, people more or less come up to Eragon and tell him what a nice shiny dragon he has.

We do not get any insight into Saphira’s mind in either book, which we logically should have given that she and Eragon supposedly ‘share thoughts’. Eragon confides in Saphira very frequently, turning to her when he needs advice and sharing his feelings with her, but Saphira does not reciprocate. She never tells Eragon how SHE feels, never asks him for advice, never treats him as a true friend. When they talk, the focus is always on him. Eragon never asks her about herself, and all in all he takes her for granted, always assuming that she will be there when he needs her and never stopping to consider whether she might need him. And Saphira appears to be completely unbothered by this. Again, they are neither equals nor true partners. A true partnership – even a close friendship – requires that both give and take from each other. But this does not happen between Eragon and Saphira. Eragon does not act as if he truly cares about Saphira’s feelings. All he does is take and take and take from her, as if she were some sort of eternal wellspring. In a realistic world with properly developed characters, Saphira would probably be nursing a grudge against him and he would eventually be forced to confront his own selfishness, but it is a fair bet that this will not happen, as both characters are being handled by an author who would not recognise a real character if it stole the glasses off his nose. Instead Saphira, like every other ‘good’ character, behaves as if her life revolves around Eragon. Their conversations are all about him, him and only him, as if he were some kind of metaphorical sun around which even a wise, mighty dragon must orbit. It is the same for every other character. Everyone and everything in Alagaësia revolves around Eragon, and that includes Saphira.

In terms of Star Wars, which as most people know is where Paolini got his plot from, Saphira’s obvious equivalent character is in fact two characters – the droids R2-D2 and C3PO. This may seem absurd at first, but on examination it is quite plausible. Like the droids, Saphira is the catalyst for the hero’s adventure and the reason why the rebels accept him, and she also tags along on the adventure where she does nothing much except provide comic relief and exposition and once or twice help the hero out at some crucial moment. If during Empire she begins saying ‘oh my!’ or bleeping at frequent intervals, the Epistler will not be the slightest bit surprised.

What is most aggravating about all this is that it didn’t have to be this way. Saphira did not have to be the nothing character that she is. She had the potential to be every bit as incredible as Paolini felt she should have been. If only he had handled her properly.

If the Epistler had had the chance to provide a little advice during the writing of Eldest, he would have suggested that instead of making Roran and Nasuada new ‘viewpoint’ characters, Saphira should have been allowed to come to the fore. If parts of the story were told from her point of view, it would have been an excellent way to develop her character and show the reader everything that he wanted to know about her. Readers constantly talk about how much Saphira interests them, and if she had been a viewpoint character and there had been various subplots told through her eyes in place of Roran or Nasuada’s subplots, both of which were pointless and uninteresting, it could have been a great improvement.

Saphira and Eragon’s relationship could have been a deeply moving and affecting thing which had both a positive and negative side, which helped develop them both as characters and which gave the reader an emotional connection with the story. A story told about characters like this, with a truly well-developed and involving link, could have been great no matter how generic the plotline was. If Eragon and Saphira’s relationship had truly been the ‘kernel’ of the story, it could have gone a very long way toward redeeming Paolini’s ripoffs and endless list of clichés.

But the point is that it wasn’t and it didn’t. Paolini failed miserably – failed both his readers and his characters. And no amount of boasting or exaggeration on his part will ever change that.

Glaedr

If Saphira is a nothing character, then Glaedr is even less than nothing. He is the partner of Oromis, Paolini’s Yoda clone, and like Oromis he fills the mentor role vacated by the late Brom. When the Epistler says that he is less than a nothing character, he means it literally. The Epistler simply cannot think of a way to describe Glaedr’s personality, for the simple reason that he does not have one. He is simply words on a page; a vehicle for some tedious lessons on morality and philosophy which the Epistler does not remember nor care to remember, in spite of having read them several times. He is supposed to be Oromis’ counterpart, who teaches Saphira while Oromis teaches Eragon. He fulfils his plot device role, and otherwise does absolutely nothing and has no character development whatsoever. The Epistler honestly cannot think of anything more to say about him.

Thorn

Not a character at all. Thorn has a total of zero lines during his one appearance in Eldest and never does anything character-defining. Murtagh may as well have shown up at the Burning Plains on a donkey.

Shruikan

Has not appeared at any point in the series (although for some reason everyone already seems to know that he has red eyes). Being the steed of the oh-so-evil Galbatorix, Shruikan is black (if you find this surprising, please refrain from breeding). Apparently he was forced to serve Galbatorix by means of evil magic, which at first suggests he may be set free. But then we remember that Shruikan is black. Forget setting him free: he’s evil and must die.

And these are all the dragon characters to be found in the Inheritance trilogy so far – ‘characters’ being a relative term. They have physical descriptions and two have dialogue, so the Epistler is forced to concede that they must be characters, though he cannot help but feel as if he is insulting the thousands of REAL characters that exist in the realm of literature. They are simply uninteresting, and they are certainly not the focus of the story. The focus of the story is all on Eragon and Arya and other semi-humanoid characters. The dragons barely get a mention, and when they do it is never alone. Everything they do is defined by who their riders are – plenty of ancient elven warriors are named and talked about, but not a single dragon is mentioned that does not have a rider. And when it comes to heroic deeds, it is always the rider who does them, not the dragon. This being so, how can it possibly be said that riders are equal to their dragons? We are constantly TOLD that they are equals, but we are never once SHOWN it. All we actually do see confirms the idea that the rider is the important one, and that every rider has a nice sharp sword, fancy titles, magic powers and a dragon to ride. The dragon is simply a tool, and that is exactly how they are portrayed. And we never see Saphira complain about how Eragon orders her around all the time, either. She does not act like a proud, ferocious warrior of the sky, or even like a character that isn’t human. One reader remarked that they got some way through Eldest (not having read Eragon first) before realising that Saphira wasn’t human. And if a non-human character acts so much like a human that they actually become indistinguishable from one, why bother?

Oh, the reader protests, come now, Epistler, how can you be so stupid? You forgot all the things Saphira and the other dragons do that makes them special! They can fly and breathe fire and everything! Well, setting aside the fact that special abilities do not a convincing character make, let us examine these special dragon abilities.

Dragon Abilities

So what can dragons do in Paolini-land? They can breathe fire and fly. How very, very distinctive. And they are telepathic. Just like the ones in the Dragonriders of Pern novels. Who would have thought it – Paolini didn’t come up with telepathic dragons on his own, after all! But in all seriousness, what does it matter that Saphira is telepathic? Her dialogue with Eragon is no different than ordinary spoken dialogue – she may as well have been given a voice just like any other character. The impact that this has on the plot is limited to the fact that they can communicate over longer distances than most people, and that Eragon has to serve as her mouthpiece when she wants to talk to someone else. Like many other things in the Inheritance books, it seems to have been thrown in simply because Paolini thought it was cool, since it has absolutely zero effect on the plot or the characters. One thing that the Epistler finds most frustrating about Paolini is his lack of imagination – he puts things into his books ‘just because’, rather than because they actually mean something. Saphira’s telepathy is a prime example.

Riders Generally

The Epistler feels that he has already made his point about how dragon riders in the Inheritance series treat their dragons like pets. But he found his daily dose of nutritious irony within the pages of Eragon itself:

“They (the dragons) were no more animals than we are. For some reason people praise everything the Riders did, yet ignore the dragons, assuming that they were nothing more than an exotic means to get from one town to another. They weren’t. The Riders’ great deeds were only possible because of the dragons. How many men would draw their swords if they knew a giant fire-breathing lizard – one with more natural cunning and wisdom than even a king could hope for – would soon be there to stop the violence?”

~Brom

Oh Paolini, how you mock yourself. Brom could very well have been channelling the Epistler himself when he said this. The Epistler hates to break it to you, Paolini, but Brom was absolutely right – and he was talking about you.

odd morals

Epistle the Sixth
Black, White, Shades of Grey, and Hot Guys With Scars

The Epistler extends his greetings to his readers. Sadly, his suicide attempt was thwarted after some helpful voodoo priest cast a spell of resurrection over his grave and caused him to rise once more, replenished and ready to once again take up his spectral pen. It has recently reached the Epistler’s ear that some do not like the anonyminity implicit in his writings. The Epistler’s response to this is that his identity is unimportant and, were it known, it would prove far less interesting than his readers may have been led to expect. Some also dislike the Epistler’s habit of referring to himself in the third person. The Epistler’s response to this is: according to the Surgeon General, the Epistler’s stylistic choices will not cause any lasting damage to his readers. He apologises to those who dislike it, but he cannot please everyone.

And now, let Epistle the Sixth begin. Sit ye down and prepare thyself, mortal.

Character Arcs, X-Treme Edition

“SECTUMSEMPRA!” bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly.

Blood spurted from Malfoy’s face and chest as though he had been slashed with an invisible sword. He staggered backward and collapsed onto the waterlogged floor with a great splash, his wand falling from his limp right hand.

-Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Pg 489, Bloomsbury Edition, © J.K.Rowling, 2005

And with this simple paragraph, we see J.K.Rowling demonstrate her remarkable skill as a writer in a dramatic but deceptively simple way. Harry Potter, the beloved hero, has just demonstrated that he is a real human being – he has done something morally questionable.
The Epistler sincerely doubts that there is a single human being on the planet who has not yet read Half-Blood Prince yet cares about plot spoilers, so he has no qualms about discussing this scene and its ramifications. Harry suspects that his nemesis, Draco Malfoy, has some nefarious scheme. So far in the book he has spent a great deal of time trying to discover just what it is, only to be frustrated. At this point in the story he comes across Malfoy crying in a bathroom; the poor boy is being forced to work for Voldemort, under threat of death for himself and his family, and now, for the first time in the series, he shows an inner vulnerability. Harry is shocked to see him, but, on being seen spying, he ends up in a fight with Malfoy which ends when he uses a spell on him which he has never tried before – a spell which proves more descructive than he expected.
Now, although Malfoy is indeed a villain, and a highly unpleasant person into the bargain, what Harry does to him is both shocking and cruel. And afterwards he is forced to confront that fact. Harry is the hero of the story – we like him and we don’t like Malfoy – and yet he has just shown that he, like Voldemort, is perfectly capable of attacking other people, and not just humiliating them, but hurting them. His hatred for Malfoy got the better of him, and this is the bloody result.
So what does this mean? Does Harry’s behaviour mean that he is no longer the hero? Do we cease to care about him because he has done something unsympathetic? No.

What this scene really achieves is twofold – firstly it demonstrates that good is not all good, and that even the ‘pure of heart’ (as Dumbledore has previously described Harry) are not just able to do bad things, but are sometimes willing to do it, too. And secondly, it is an important character-defining moment for Harry. Previously, with the knowledge that it is his destiny to be the one to kill Voldemort, it seemed hard to believe that our protagonist could possibly do it – after all, he has never killed or really fought anyone in his life. He is still an innocent, and innocents do not kill.
But now it is plain that Harry is no longer an innocent. He has stepped over the line and become a fighter, and fighting has a dark side – at bottom, it involves hurting and, ultimately, killing other people.

It is both moving and, in a way, saddening. For Harry to become a true hero – to finally triumph over the forces of evil – he has no option but to become like them. As he observes to himself during Order of the Phoenix, he must end his life as either murderer or victim.

In war, innocence dies first.

Whether Harry dies at the end of the last book or not, his role will still be a sacrificial one – he must lose his purity in order to be the saviour of all he holds dear. Even if he triumphs over Voldemort in the end, he will never be the same again. Such is the price of victory.

So what is the point of all this, and what does it have to do with Eragon? Yes, the Epistler must finally return to the subject of his least favourite book, much as he would have enjoyed writing about Harry Potter instead.

Well, let us compare and contrast Harry’s character arc with that of our beloved Eragon. To date, in both series, Harry has killed zero people and Eragon has killed hundreds.
Did anyone really notice? Not really. Since Eragon is a sociopath (see Epistle the Fifth) he is able to become a mass murderer without suffering any lasting psychological effects.
The difference between Eragon and Harry – aside from the fact that one is a cardboard cutout with a mental disorder and the other is a well-rounded, three-dimensional character – is that Harry has a dark side, and Eragon does not. And in this day and age, when reality has made cynics and realists of us all, a hero who is a shining beacon of purity cannot help but feel somewhat farcical.

Black and White and Shades of Grey, Help Us Keep the Fools at Bay
The morality in Eragon and Eldest is extremely simplistic, and that’s putting it lightly.
Here is the formula:

White + Beautiful + Sparkly = Good
Black + Ugly + Smelly = Evil

That strange, incense-scented breeze you just felt was the Epistler’s depressed sigh.
And here is the second formula:

Good Character Does Something = Automatically Virtuous
Bad Character Does Something = Automatically Heinous

That rumbling in the earth was the Epistler bashing his head against his desk.

Out of all the characters in the story, the only one who does not quite fit the mould of either ‘good’ or ‘bad’ is Murtagh. And coincidently he is widely acknowledged to be the favourite character of many, many readers.
…Let it be now acknowledged that the word ‘coincidently’ did not in fact need to be in the previous sentence. It is not a coincidence at all that Murtagh is the most beloved of all Paolini’s characters.

Why is this so? It is because Murtagh, unlike Eragon, is an anti-hero. He is neither on the side of evil or the side of good – he acts according to what he wants, not according to what someone else wants. Typically his characterisation is as thin and shaky as it is with everyone else’s, but it is possible to read a pattern into his behaviour by applying previous experience with characters in other books and movies. So, completing his ill-defined personality by fitting in parts of other, similar characters, as the DNA of the dinosaurs in Jurrassic Park was completed by splicing it with the genetic materials of frogs, we are able to get a picture of what Murtagh is like (let us pause to remember that we should not have been required to do this in the first place, and we all know who is to blame for it).

So. Murtagh is tough and independent-minded – a rogue not dissimilar from Han Solo of Star Wars fame (is anyone surprised? Of course not). He does not trust anyone (not even – gasp! – Eragon) and is self-reliant. He is also not above doing morally questionable things for his own benefit – for example, in Eragon he kills a slave trader who attempted to capture himself and Eragon when he was disarmed and helpless. Eragon, much to our complete lack of surprise, proceeds to throw a tantrum and accuse Murtagh of murder. Murtagh, however, is unmoved; pointing out that killing the slaver was in their own best interests, since they cannot afford to have anyone know where they are. Eragon, needless to say, is too abysmally stupid and self-righteous to understand, but Murtagh immediately gains the reader’s sympathy because he has, in the space of a few pages, shown more common sense than Eragon has displayed throughout the entire book so far.
Murtagh is also one of the few characters who remains more or less unimpressed by Eragon’s status as a rider. He, unlike even the Kings and Queens whom Eragon later encounters, has the spine to argue with him. He also, much to the reader’s glee, is able to defeat him in combat – and this is before he becomes a rider.

Murtagh garners even more sympathy after he and Eragon finally reach the Varden, since he is immediately treated with suspicion and locked up for the crime of being Morzan’s son (apparently the Varden believes that Evil is hereditary). Eragon, meanwhile, is greeted with a ticker-tape parade and people wearing t-shirts with his face on them. Which is only just, since he has… uh… done… absolutely nothing beyond becoming a rider and blundering his way into their hiding-place. Which is, uh, highly impressive, to be sure. And no, the Epistler does not ever waste an opportunity to say unpleasant things about Eragon. He thanks you kindly for asking.

In the end, Murtagh is simply a more interesting character than Eragon is. He is morally ambiguous and rough around the edges, and his backstory – since there is a fair amount that we simply don’t know about him – is intriguingly mysterious.
When Eldest was released, many of those who read it did so eager to discover what became of Murtagh – the only character who ever had a hope of being even slightly interesting. But Paolini blew it.
Murtagh ‘dies’ during the first chapter and is absent from the rest of the book right up until the end, where he appears just when we most expect it, at the height of the ‘climactic’ final battle, now riding a dragon of his very own. He then proceeds to make Eragon look like the weak, whiny pansy he is for the second time, steals his sword and makes another abrupt exit from the text.
In doing what he did with Murtagh, Paolini may as well have tattooed the words “I Am Clueless” on his forehead. He took the most popular character he created and, instead of enlarging his role in the story, reduced it to a virtual cameo – and a highly disappointing and predictable one at that. So Murtagh ended up working for the enemy. Who would have thought it?

Well, pretty much everyone who has seen Star Wars, actually.

Paolini is an idiot. He took all the potential Murtagh had, used it to clean his lavatory and then threw it into the gutter to rot.

And what will happen to Murtagh in the third and (thankfully) final book in the series? The Epistler will now use his psychic powers to find out.
Let the door of knowledge open unto him…

Murtagh will sacrifice himself to save Eragon and thus redeem himself before dying a tragic but honourable death, thereby proving Eragon’s moral superiority once and for all.
It is unavoidable. Paolini has already locked himself into the Evil Path of Cliché, and is now lost forever. Fare thee well, thou poor soul.

Anti-Heroes FTW
Once upon a time, every story told was a fairy story. Myth, legend… old stories.
These stories were, by and large, fairly simplistic. Today, as the art of storytelling has become more sophisticated, stories have become more complex. And fasions come and go. Once upon a time, it was commonplace for heroic characters to be shining beacons of purity – incorruptible, unconflicted… pure of heart.
In this modern age, however, this has changed. The trend is now toward darker, grittier, more psychologically and morally complex heroes. The readers of today are far too cynical and jaded to be easily impressed by a hero who can do no wrong and never does – today, when we have been forced to admit to ourselves that bad things do indeed happen to good people, when greed and corruption beget descruction and genocide which we seem powerless to stop, we find it far easier to relate to an anti-heroic character.
Once we had John McClane and Luke Skywalker. Now we have Captain Malcom Reynolds, Beatrix Kiddo and Captain Jack Sparrow.
Once we had heroes in children’s literature like Sarah Crewe (incidently, she is one of the most blatant examples of a Mary Sue in original fiction that the Epistler has ever come across) and Matilda Wormwood. Now we have Harry Potter, who slashed his enemy’s face open in a fit of rage, and Will Parry, who committed murder at the age of twelve.
Paolini is writing from a very childish and naïve perspective – which is only to be expected, given his obviously sheltered upbringing. Having been homeschooled and brought up in isolation, he was incredibly inexperienced when he began writing Eragon – it would appear that more or less the only other humans he ever interacted with on a regular basis were his parents and his sister. It is unlikely that he had any wider experience, and to this day, at the age of twenty-two when he is more than old and wealthy enough to move out on his own, he is still living at home and, the Epistler suspects, allowing his parents to screen all his fanmail (it is certainly true that his father is claimed to have been spotted persecuting critics on the internet, along with someone who may or may not be his sister Angela).
Much of this remains moot, but it would certainly explain the simplistic world-view presented in the Inheritance trilogy so far – along with the apparent inability to create realistic characters (human interaction is an absolute requirement to writing good characters).
If Paolini has never experienced real suffering and loss, or spoken to someone who has, how can he be expected to portray that in his writing? He does not and cannot. He is a man who writes like a child, and hence he is completely oblivious to the reasons why it should have been Murtagh, and not Eragon, who was the protagonist of his books.

the lack of orginality

[EvilElitest]

Epistle the Seventh

Imitation as the Most Insincere Form of Flattery



Let it not be said that the Epistler does not listen to his readers. He is pleased that the fruits of his labours have provided entertainment and proven informative. It has reached his attention that his diagnosis of Eragon’s sociopathy has been challenged. The Epistler admits that he may have been less thorough than he should have been, but would like to add that he sadly passed beyond the mortal plane before he had the opportunity to make a study of psychology, much as he would have liked to. Either way, even if Eragon is not a full-blown sociopath, it remains true that he has severe psychological problems. Much like the Epistler does, but the Epistler would like to believe that his own psychosis is a little more entertaining.



The Epistler would like to take this opportunity to thank those who have put forward suggestions for further Epistles, as he had been having difficulty thinking of a new topic to cover. In order to thank these people, he will now offer the following teaser for future Epistles. The Epistler intends to view the upcoming Eragon movie and will compose an Epistle which gives his views on it – even if the movie proves to be good, which at the moment appears unlikely. He will also obtain a copy of the Eldest Deluxe Edition as soon as he is able to, and will write an Epistle about the “special exclusive features” therein (the use of salesperson language puts a bad taste in the Epistler’s mouth). When the final book of the Inheritance trilogy is released, the Epistler intends to read it and write a running commentary on it, most likely spread over several Epistles. He cannot but feel some trepidation at this prospect, especially if said book proves to be as long as rumour implies, and even more so if people’s impressions of the sample provided in the Eldest Deluxe Edition is found to be accurate and the book surpasses the awfulness of its prequel (now there is a run-on sentence to be proud of!).



And now, without further ado, on with Epistle the Seventh. Of all the topics that have been suggested so far, the Epistler found this one the most challenging but also the most tantalising. Besides which, how can he set out to criticise Paolini’s work without doing justice to what is possibly the most loathed aspect of it? He cannot and shall not.



Of all the crimes Paolini has committed against literature, possibly the most heinous one is his plagiarism. The Epistler absolutely refuses to call it “homage”, “tribute” or “influence” for the simple reason that it is not. Perhaps Paolini thinks it is these things, but if he does then he is wrong. Epistle the Seventh will discuss the difference between plagiarism and paying tribute, and will explain why Paolini should not be excused.



On Originality

True originality does not exist.

This is a sweeping statement which many people – including writers – have made and created instant controversy with. The Epistler thought long and hard about it and eventually decided that it was both true and untrue.

Interpreted at its most superficial level, the statement is false. If one reads it to mean that it is impossible to create a work which is distinct, then it is absolute nonsense. Anyone who truly believes this should not be allowed to write novels. Ever. But at a deeper level, it is true. If by “true originality” one means that every story has something in common with every other story, then, no, true originality does not exist. Every story ever written is related to every other story ever written at a fundamental, unchangeable level. No matter how hard you may strive to make your work completely different from everything else, others will always find ways to compare it to something else. All stories have one thing in common: they are stories. If one were to take out the things that make a story – plot and character are the most fundamental – there would be nothing left but a lot of words strung together. And, although there is nothing wrong at all with experimentation and thinking outside the box, most writers are disinclined to create works that other people will not want to read, because a story not read is completely worthless.

In literature, much emphasis is placed on experimental works such as, for example, the French novelette called The Malady of Death, which goes so far into the realm of plotlessness and characterlessness that it is virtually incomprehensible. The Malady of Death is a smoothly written and beautiful work, but very few people would be able to relate to it, even though they may feel sophisticated and intellectual for having read it.

What people want – the dirty little secret that lurks at the bottom of literary study – what people truly want from stories is very simple: entertainment. People read stories because it’s fun. The human brain does not take kindly to boredom. Stimulation is what it craves. In other words, entertainment. Stories are a way to make life interesting, a way to escape from reality and a way to define the world and create some kind of order out of chaos and confusion.

The best stories, the ones that provide the entertainment people want, are the ones that are easy to relate to, and hence, in the end, they must have characters and situations the reader finds familiar in some way, and there must be something going on in order to maintain the reader’s interest – in other words, a plot. There is little point in writing a novel if nobody can relate to it. The Epistler has travelled in academic circles and has been forced to listen to a large amount of nonsense about style, trend, literary theory and the importance of showing the world how clever you are by writing a 60-page novel wherein two people do nothing but screw and talk about nothing, and the conclusion he has reached is as follows: pull your head in and just write a good story.

So. The point of this rather longwinded discussion is that, no, in the end the true essence of originality does not exist because at the end of the day stories remain stories and cannot escape from what lies at the heart of their nature and which they all have in common.



But this in no way implies that each story should not strive to be unique.



A story is not just a collection of words. It is, at bottom, an expression of something pure that lies inside every person. Everyone has at least one story in them. And this story comes from them. Not from anyone else. There will inevitably be influences from elsewhere in any given work, but the driving force behind the story comes from inside its writer’s soul. A writer writes to express something. It can be anything, but this something is always something they have felt and been profoundly affected by. This is what every true novel has at its heart. It may not be well-expressed, it may be obscure, it may be false or distasteful, or even boring, but it is always there.



But the Inheritance trilogy has no heart. It is a book without a soul. The Epistler says this with complete seriousness.



Why?



The Inheritance trilogy is pulp. Mindless, empty, bland pulp. It cannot be called literature because it, unlike those novels worthy of the name, completely lacks that sense of truth at its heart. Not a hint of its creator’s soul showed through at any point in the text. It never had the chance. How could it possibly reveal anything about the boy who wrote it when he has utterly failed to include even a hint of original thought or creativity?

The trilogy does not have a “voice”. Instead it is an echo of an echo of an echo. It does nothing but mindlessly and pointlessly regurgitate things which have been done a million times before, in exactly the same way, over and over again. While Paolini has lifted the characters, worlds, ideas and plots of other writers verbatim, what he has failed to transplant is what that really matters about these things. Everything in his books is there “because”. For example, in the Star Wars trilogy, it was revealed that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker’s father because this revelation created realistic and sympathetic conflict within the hero’s mind. It added a touch of darkness and complexity to the story and heightened the viewer’s interest and emotional investment in what was happening. At the time, it was also a relatively new and fresh idea that genuinely surprised people.

In Eldest, it is revealed that Morzan was Eragon’s father and this makes absolutely no difference to anything. Paolini includes this plot point for the gods alone know what reason – most likely because he thought it was “cool” – apparently unaware that it has to do more than just be there. In Star Wars the “I am your father” revelation was shocking and involving. In Eldest the only response from the reader is one of boredom and contempt. Why should anyone find it at all shocking or interesting when it is so familiar? Everyone knows about what happened in Star Wars – the “I am your father” line has been relentlessly copied and parodied and has ingrained itself into popular culture to the point that most people know it before they even watch the movie. The way it is done in Eldest means that the reader feels absolutely no surprise, only astonishment that Paolini apparently believed it would provide a big “wow” moment for his readers.



And yet the idea of the protagonist of a story being in some way related to the villain does not need to be unoriginal. The reasons why Paolini failed to make it work are as follows:

Firstly, it is clumsily done. The fight between Murtagh and Eragon is painfully contrived, and when Murtagh “dramatically” reveals to Eragon that they are brothers it is hampered by Paolini’s excruciatingly stilted writing. There is no sense of drama inherent in the prose at this point; the dialogue remains as horribly forced and unrealistic as ever, and this makes it difficult for the reader to immerse himself in what is going on.

Secondly, the theft is so blindingly obvious as to render this part of the book outright laughable. Absolutely no attempt has been made to hide the “inspiration” behind it; on reading it, one instantly recognises it as having come from Star Wars. Some time later the line “look inside yourself, you know it to be true” appears. This is almost identical to Vader’s famous line; “search your feelings, you know it to be true”, and only helps to confirm that, yes, Paolini stole the scene from Star Wars.

And finally, the impact that it has on the plot and characters is virtually nil. Eragon feels a little depressed about it for approximately half a page, and then it is all over and forgotten. The fact that it makes so little impression on Eragon makes the reader dismiss it just as quickly and move on. If Eragon is barely upset by it, why should the reader care? Thus we see the point emerge; we have had the idea without the spirit. Paolini stole the “I am your father” element but completely ignored the whole reason why Lucas used it in the first place. It is simply there, and that is all.

Now, there could easily have been a way to make Eragon be related to a villain without making it an obvious ripoff of Star Wars. There would have been nothing wrong with Paolini using the idea, even if he did get it from Lucas, if he firstly put an original spin on it and secondly made it count. There was no need to have it revealed at the height of a fight scene with the evil emperor’s right-hand man. It could have been known from the beginning. A different character could have revealed it. Eragon could have gone through the whole trilogy not knowing and not found out until the very end of the story. By taking not just the essence of the idea – ie that the hero’s father was evil – but the way in which someone else has already expressed it, Paolini made the ripoff incredibly blatant. The near-identical “revelation” scene means that the reader can easily see the strings, and hence it is not an old idea expressed in a new way, but simply another example of plagiarism.

Paying Tribute: a Tithe to the Greats

In writing, it is common practise to pay tribute to the works of other people. Homages are completely the norm in the creative world. For example, Quentin Tarantino is a fan of old Japanese kung-fu movies and constantly references them in his own works. But this does not make him a plagiarist. Kill Bill is not a ripoff just because it includes a line from another movie called Lady Snowblood. Why? Because the plotline and characters are original, the way in which the movie was made is Tarantino’s own unique style, and the whole production is stamped with his personality. The “revenge movie” is a well-known subgenre, but it is the way in which Tarantino has created his own revenge movie that makes it his and nobody else’s. He created the character of The Bride, he created the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad, it was his idea to show parts of the movie out of sequence, to include a segment shot in black and white and to animate another part. This all came from him. But, every now and then, something appears in the movie which is not his creation. When O-ren Ishii says “look at me… take a good look at my face… do I look familiar? Do I look like someone you murdered?” she is paraphrasing Lady Snowblood’s line; “…do I look familiar? Do I look like someone you raped?”. But the line is used for a different purpose and in a different way. It is not there to compensate for a lack of creativity on Tarantino’s part. If he had written a different piece of dialogue that expressed the same thing, the impact would have remained the same. He took the line and used it in a slightly similar scenario (ie someone getting revenge) as a nod to a movie he admired. At the same time, the tribute only extends as far as this one line. There are no major plot-points lifted wholesale from somewhere else – even if there is influence present, Tarantino has put his own spin on everything.

Thus we have an excellent example of a proper tribute. It is not intellectual theft; it is perfectly acceptable, even clever.

Some people, in attempting to defend Paolini on the charge of plagiarism, have said that all his supposed thefts were in fact tributes. But they are not.

For one thing, in all the interviews he has given, although he claimed that some of his names were “tributes” or “contained hidden jokes” (in fact, virtually all of them were lifted from Lord of the Rings with a few letters changed and none of them were either hidden or at all amusing), Paolini never added that his plot-line was taken from Star Wars – hence he did not acknowledge that it does not belong to him, which amounts to pretending that it does. When challenged about his thefts, he simply responded that “all fantasy is derivative”. It is highly probable that he knows his works are unoriginal, but he is apparently under the delusion that this is somehow acceptable. Or perhaps he simply does not care. The Epistler is uncertain as to which attitude is more aggravating.

Another reason why Paolini’s “ideas” are not tributes but thefts is that he has used what he has taken not in order to enrich a world, story and characters that belong to him, but in place of the original ideas that should have been there. Instead of coming up with his own plotline he copied Star Wars, and instead of creating his own world he stitched together a Frankenstein’s monster from pieces of a hundred other fantasy books. Absolutely everything in his books is recognisable as having been taken from somewhere else, and only the barest hint of originality ever shows through. Even the most minor and inconsequential elements are stolen.

Solembum the werecat? Taken from Garth Nix (albeit with an absolutely ridiculous new name slapped on). Angela the witch? Which of any number of “cheerfully eccentric” mystics would you prefer? Elva? Taken from Dune, or possibly The Ring. Arya’s name? Stolen from G.R.R.Martin. Eragon? Perilously close to Aragorn. Even if it was actually created by changing one letter in the word “dragon”, as Paolini claims, the Epistler does not believe it. Saphira? Taken from, of all places, the Bible. Hrothgar? Taken from Beowulf. The Star Sapphire? Step forward, David Eddings. Elves and dwarves? Everyone already knows the answer to that one.

And so on and so forth.

Paolini seems to have written the books in reverse. The so-called “tributes” make up the bulk of the story, and the very, very few vaguely original elements appear here and there and do not make an important part of the story, as if they were taking the place of proper homages.

The reason why his “tributes” are not tributes is because, rather than enriching the story, they are the story. It is all homage, all reference. Eragon and Eldest are nothing more than a pair of extended quotations with a few words changed here and there. Because Paolini has allowed other people’s ideas to take the place of his own, he has stepped very firmly indeed over the line from tribute into plagiarism.



Plagiarism: The Unforgivable Crime

In the literary world, there are few things as despised as much as plagiarism. A book is hard to write, and new ideas are worth their weight in gold. Hence, stealing them is the equivalent of stealing money. It is, in essence, cheating. Not taking the time to think up your own ideas shows open contempt for the creative process, and stealing someone else’s ideas mocks and cheapens their hard work.

Paolini is a literary parasite. He has taken things which do not belong to him and used them as if he owned them, and in the process has made the entire world of fantasy writing look bad. This is not something that should be ignored. Too many people have admitted that he is a thief, but then proceeded to pretend that it doesn’t matter. It does matter. It matters because writing is an art, and one which has enriched the lives of millions ever since the written word first came into existence. If the Epistler stole a necklace from a jewellery shop and then claimed to have made it, even though it still had the maker’s label prominently visible, would you be impressed?

So, you may be wondering, if Paolini is indeed a thief, what should be done about it?

The Epistler is aware that, as far as most people know, none of Paolini’s victims have pressed charges. Unfortunately, copyright cannot be placed on ideas. Paolini had just enough common sense to make enough changes – superficial though they be – to avoid actually breaching copyright laws. However, he need not be taken to court. All it would take would be for George Lucas, Anne McCaffrey, the Tolkien estate, David Eddings or any one of those whose ideas he stole to acknowledge the crime committed against them and, preferably, condemn it. The Epistler does not know why they have not done so. Perhaps they don’t know about it, or perhaps they don’t care. But the Epistler believes that they have a duty to their fans to not let this sort of thing pass unchecked. There should be some sort of reaction.

As for the rest of the world, who are not so fortunate to have been left with an itchy welt from Paolini’s proboscis, if they truly care about creativity, and respect those who take the time and effort to be original, the way to punish Paolini would be to boycott him. Do not buy his books. Do not see the movie or buy any of the tie-in merchandising. Stop putting money in his pockets, because he has not earned it. Stealing is a crime. See to it that it doesn’t pay.


read any of those if you want a demonstration of the valid complaints about Eragon

or my first review of the book

This has been done to death, does my option even matter any more?


Ah Eragon
"The writing was okay, I guess. But I couldn't take it anymore after Harry returned from his first run-in with the Dementors to find the Ring Wraiths had burned the Lars Homestead."
I highly disliked the writering
I hated the characters, Eragon is a mary sue, the best at everything, a boring may character, and apperently a sociopath as show here, credit goes to the Epistler



Quote:
Eragon Shadeslayer: Ye Olde Faux-Medieval Sociopath



Mary Sues are quite common in both original fiction and fanfiction. However, Eragon also bears the less common distinction of apparently suffering from antisocial personality disorder. The Epistler did a little research and uncovered the most common traits of sociopathy, which are as follows:



1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. This may seem a little shaky at first. The Epistler had difficultly analysing it, since it would appear that, in fact, Eragon is perfectly law-abiding and has never been arrested.

But after pondering on it for some weeks, the Epistler suddenly had a revelation. Eragon is a criminal of the first order – he’s a member of the rebel army, guilty of repeated acts of high treason against the ruler of Alagaësia, not to mention disturbing the peace, ignoring a peace offering, using dishonourable tactics in battle, breaking out of prison and freeing a known supporter of the rebels who was guilty of smuggling stolen goods.

Yes, Galbatorix is ‘the bad guy’. But he’s still the King, and legally speaking he has authority over everyone who lives in Alagaësia – including our righteous hero. Eragon grew up under his rule, and by all accounts had a fairly peaceful childhood. The Empire did not harass him or his family, he had enough to eat and a roof over his head – from all we’ve seen so far, the most evil thing Galbatorix has done is (gasp!) make people pay taxes. But we must remember that the much-maligned King is trying to fight a war against the Varden, and that wars are expensive. The fact that he got his throne through violent rebellion does not change the fact that he is the King and Eragon is his subject. If one looks at it from an unbiased perspective, the Varden are nothing more than a group of terrorists. The Epistler urges his readers to consider this. If the Varden did not exist, there would be no war. The Empire’s citizens would be able to live peacefully, and there would be no armies wreaking destruction on the landscape. War profits no-one – once the Varden wins (there is no doubt whatsoever that they will), they will place their own candidate on the throne and so will begin a new Empire, which will have no essential difference whatsoever from the previous one. It will still be a dictatorship, it will still have been placed there by bloody and violent rebellion, and the common people will still have to pay taxes.

Eragon, of course, is completely unaware of any of this. However, by this logic, once the glamour and black-and-white morality has been stripped away, we can see that he is, at bottom, a criminal. The Varden stole Saphira’s egg from the King, probably murdering a few people in the process. Once Eragon found it and became a rider, his duty should have been to pledge himself to the Empire and use his newfound power responsibly. However, since the King is just so evil (we shall ignore the fact that Kings generally rule Kingdoms and that Empires have Emperors), he does not do this. Instead he joins the Varden, and during the course of both Eragon and Eldest he commits numerous criminal and terrorist acts, without showing the slightest trace of remorse. He kills Imperial soldiers – men who were merely doing their duty – destroys property, lies and steals, refuses all offers of clemency, and in general does his best to create chaos wherever he goes. And we know perfectly well that he will not at any point be brought to book for any of this, because God – otherwise known as Paolini – loves him too much for that to happen.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. Eragon is a poor liar, but is one of the most self-centred individuals the Epistler has ever had the displeasure of reading about. Consider this… has he at any point achieved anything notable during the course of either book, on his own?

….not really. He escapes from prison only because Murtagh and Saphira help him. He makes it to the Varden because of them and Brom. He only kills Durza because of Saphira and Arya’s intervention – without them he would have been killed. Not a single one of his ‘heroic’ exploits succeeded because of his own cleverness, strength or daring. Eragon is a pathetic child who calls himself a grown man yet needs someone to hold his hand every step of the way. He takes no pride in doing anything himself.

And yet he never appears to notice this. He takes his friends absolutely for granted, expecting them to wait on his every command and indulge the childish tantrums which invariably take place whenever someone does not rush to help him at every turn. He is also utterly ungrateful – witness his ‘grudging’ thanks to Brom after the aforesaid makes him a saddle, his constant whining to Saphira, his outright rudeness to Oromis, his pathetic bewilderment and emotional blackmail when Arya rebuffs his sickly-sweet romantic approaches, the hysterical abuse he throws at the already much-abused Murtagh, his brother and apparent whipping-boy, his sulky rage over Vanir’s refusal to kowtow to him, and his generally condescending and overbearing behaviour toward every other character in the book. The Epistler admits that Eragon does not lie or deceive to get his way – but he does not have to.

Eragon is a spoilt brat wearing a hero’s armour and carrying a sword. He treats every other character in the book like his personal entourage, and yet accepts the respect he gets as if it is his due. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the Epistler is rooting for the Empire to win?



3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. This is no contest. Even other characters remark on Eragon’s rashness and stupidity. He constantly rushes into things without a second thought (only to be miraculously saved every time, but this is beside the point). This trait is probably supposed to be endearing – our hero is meant to be a hot-headed but courageous lad who has a lot to learn… blah blah blah. The Epistler has a better way of putting it: he’s a moron.



4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. On numerous occasions in the books, Eragon has temper tantrums, usually over something trivial. It is a little unfair to add that he constantly fights and kills people as a solution to his problems (i.e. he would rather not work for the nasty ol’ King), given that he is a fantasy character and that is what fantasy characters do… but the Epistler used up all his charity a very long time ago.



5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. This has already been covered more or less in point 2, but the Epistler will recap. Eragon is constantly putting himself and other people in danger, usually because he is too stupid to think about anything for more than two minutes together. He is extremely reckless, and this cannot be overlooked given that he lives in a world where danger is ever-present and real, and the consequences are, frequently, death (or, at least, they would be if Paolini knew anything about a little thing called ‘realism’. Let us interpret it the way he apparently wished us to)



6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honour financial obligations. If you will indulge the Epistler for a moment… he just had an hilarious mental image of Eragon trying to obtain a job at McDonald’s.

To return to the topic at hand, Eragon is indeed irresponsible. In spite of the fact that everybody is relying upon him, he constantly does stupid and irresponsible things which get himself and other people into trouble; his apparent inability to think ahead only compounds the felony.



7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. Now this is the real killer. One day, perhaps, in the far distant future, some deranged person will go through the trilogy-to-be and make a tally of all the people Eragon kills, but for now it is safe to estimate that it stands at at least a hundred.

Now… in Eldest, when Eragon’s cousin Roran is forced to begin fighting and killing people, he keeps a mental count of all his victims and angsts about it. It is lame and unconvincing, but at least in this case Paolini made an attempt at showing some realism – Roran is shocked by the fact that he has killed people. Eragon, however, has no such reservations. At no point in either book does he truly feel remorse for anything, even something as heinous as killing another living soul. In Eragon, when he first kills a group of urgals, he has no reaction beyond (to quote Ivy), “OMG I gotz magick??!!”. He pats himself on the back for having discovered his magical abilities, but doesn’t pause for a second to consider the fact that he has just become a killer. Yes, the victims were evil, beastly urgals, but they were still, technically, people. And yet Eragon feels nothing at having killed them. Later on he kills human beings with a similar lack of reaction or human feeling. Where is the disgust? Where is the guilt? Where is the horror? He acts like a robot. In the, uh, glorious final battle of Eldest, he uses the uber-speshul magical death words (the Epistler has a name for these: cheap cop-out) to instantly kill dozens of Imperial troops, and his only real thought is ‘geez, this is just too easy’. And this is after he’s been told that there is no life after death and that this life is all anyone gets.

…Does anyone else see the internal contradiction here, or is the Epistler hallucinating?

This is not all. After Murtagh ‘dies’ at the beginning of the book, Eragon feels (or rather, thinks) sad for exactly a paragraph, and then forgets about him for the rest of the book. When he reappears at the end and reveals that he is now working for the Empire, Eragon screeches at him about how he was ‘mourning’ for him (liar), and goes on to be a complete ******* toward him – taunting him about the scar he got from his violent father, and continuing to hurl abuse at him after it is already clear that he has been coerced into his current position and is now more of a victim than ever. Once the fight is over (and Eragon has been soundly defeated, much to the reader’s pleasure – this reader, at any rate), he continues to feel sorry for himself and barely spares a thought for Murtagh at all – after he has discovered that they are brothers, no less.

There are even more examples to be had of Eragon’s selfishness and lack of remorse. Elva is an excellent one. When he discovers that he unintentionally cursed the child instead of blessing her, he is dismayed for approximately one minute before he moves on to other things and forgets all about the matter. He suffers from no lingering guilt or anxiety whatsoever, and when he finally meets his victim face-to-face, he briefly apologises and promises to try and remove the curse before he wanders off and forgets about her again for the rest of the book. Somehow, the Epistler is not taken in by this display of remorse.

Strangely, however, he goes to pieces over having killed a few rabbits.



The diagnosis is now complete: Eragon is a sociopath. He fulfils every single one of the criteria. As a bonus, he also displays a few of the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, namely:

1. A grandiose sense of self-importance

2. Requires excessive admiration

3. Strong sense of entitlement

4. Takes advantage of other people

5. Lacks empathy (again)

8. Arrogant affect (he accepts being the Last Hope of pretty much everything with scarcely a pause. One would expect some feelings of self-doubt or at the very least embarrassment, but apparently Paolini thinks otherwise)



From the accounts he has read, it would seem that narcissists, far from actually being special, have very little personality to call their own. Instead, they create a false personality from bits and pieces of the personalities of other people whom they regarded as an authority. They adopt other people’s tastes and opinions as if they were their own, they have sterile inner lives and resent having to do anything for themselves, and they don’t talk about their feelings…

…does this sound at all familiar?

Eragon is a blank slate of a character. He never thinks for himself. Instead he mindlessly repeats things which other people have said, has no real opinions or beliefs of his own – he has no individuality. Everything he is is a quotation of some sort; he becomes a vegetarian atheist like Oromis with little or no resistance, and never shows any resentment over the fact that he is being changed by powers outside of his control. Narcissists also show an inability to change as a person based on their experiences, which, again, is true for Eragon. He begins as a selfish, immature brat, and stays that way right to the end of Eldest, in spite of all the huge changes that have taken place in his life. His view of the world changes not one iota.

(For more information about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, see www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html)



The Epistler does not pretend to be a qualified psychologist, but it is easy to see from this that Eragon has some serious issues. He is a Gary Stu of the first order, with Sociopathic and Narcissistic Personality Disorder thrown in as a bonus.

What is even more hilarious about this is that Paolini almost certainly does not know it. The Epistler will refrain from making cruel comments about how author and protagonist may have a lot in common – he has no right to say such things, and nor does anyone else who does not know Paolini personally.

However, the Epistler feels he is able to safely say that it is unlikely that Paolini put as much thought into his works as went into a single one of the Epistles written thus far. He speaks of ‘searching introspection’ as if he were a literary mastermind, but there is no way he can have applied much of it to the works that have made him so wealthy and famous. If he had done so, he surely would have realised that his beloved hero has a mental disorder and urgently needs psychological attention. Meanwhile those who read his books must suffer through an endless string of Eragon whining, Eragon throwing tantrums like a four year old, Eragon magically getting stronger without doing any work, Eragon being praised to the skies by a bunch of yes-men other characters, and Eragon doing stupid and irresponsible things and getting away with it without so much as a slap on the wrist.

…and this is the character whose name is currently being shouted from the rooftops and whose exploits have made his creator a hero to children all around the world.



There will be no further Epistles. The Epistler is now going to seek out a good exorcist to help him commit suicide. Fare thee well, readers.
credits to the Epistles, he does infact come back from the dead


He also meets up with Arya, his Faux Action girl, Brom, the mentor knock off, meets the Murtagh the anti hero, who's father is the dragon

who later does a face heel turn. The hero then goes on his many adventures with his dragon fighting the evil empire , which by the way, i don't really understand why it is evil

However, what annoys me most is how black and white the story is, how bad the characters are and the issues with stealing the plot


In case you haven't read the book, here is a brief description of Book 1
and book 2
I feel so obsalite, now, what is my option worth
from,
EE

Conclusion, Eragon is the work of a hack, no, a talentless hack. The book is at best an over praised medoricty. There are writers who i despise who at least have better quality than this






2)And, ultimately, what the crowd thinks of you in the end. Are you proposing debate without an audience, in which case cannot be won, even with logic. It is highly unlikely that one in a debate can persuade the other side into their beliefs. That is what happened in LK vs. Sauron, we couldn't persuade you nor you us, and that is why it kept going for some time.
No, because numbers don't change a fact. Propaganda is the idea of getting masses of numbers to "prove a point" not logic. As i said, debates make no difference. In early times, people believed that the world was flat. Most of them in fact (not during Columbus's time actually, but point remains) did that make it so? In Russia the overwhelming majority of the people were Communist, does that make Communism the perfect system? Numbers mean nothing, only the points on the table


3) Though it wasn't at all settled. Just a point.

Forum rule, if a thread is dead, make a new one, don't raise the old one


1) But describing the character in such powerful forms does have an effect. If you just say "This dude is evil" and that alone, are you really giving the readers a good image to work with in terms of power? No, JRR tolkien gave fancy wording and history for his villains to add effect as well and to give more of an essence for his villains.

No a realize Soth is badass and amazingly dangerous, i'm just saying i don't think he can defeat the Wk

He isn't protected from the WK (normal weapons can hurt him however). In a one on one the WK would simply win over a long time, because i don't think Soth can hurt him. Soth is most likely a better sword fighter, but can he actually hurt the WK? Soth has no magical protection against swords through he is immune to some magics
He is dangerous certainly, i don't deny that, just not enough


2) Yes, so did the WK. Difference? Soth got his cursed immortality on his own and keeps it independently. WK dies when Sauron dies. Soth is more independent.

1) But you can't claim his obtaining immortality as an asset, or something to be impressed by. Also He can't come back from the dead like the WK can


3) Well... he was killed before, but only by powerful people. So are you saying that a random hobo in the streets can pick up a sword and run it through Soth with ease? The lord of a cursed realm had to give into his demands to keep him from destroying it and himself (Meaning the lord of the realm). He was only defeated by powerful beings of darkness (Who had to take away his undeath to do so, granting him a much longed for gift in the process), and a guy who traveled through time itself! Sounds pretty hard to top with your average adventurers and even epic adventurers.


in theory, a hobo with a sword could kill him. i'm not saying Soth is a weaknling no, he could kill Arthas any day, but he doesn't have any sort of special protection from swords. So if the Wk simply swarmed him with a bunch of guys, he'd lose most of them but they would still prevail


He did kill one.
Touche. I forgot about that one. It was young i recall


Not sure how analogous this is, but he was more than a match for Strahd von Zarovich of the Ravenloft timeline.
they never fought i believe. They both disagreeded, but Strahd one in the end, he got Soth to kill a rival and to go into his own demi plane (where he got stuck)



People who stab or even touch him are gripped with a chilling cold that numbs their limbs to the point of uselessness.

I don't think he actually has a physical body, to be honest. He's pretty much just armour with a pair of evil glowing eyes but nothing else is inside it. I suppose Witch King could try and sunder it but I doubt that would do much good...the armour isn't worn by Soth, it IS Soth.
death knights do have phyical bodies, but they can turn incorpral for a brief amount of time, (I'm too afraid to open my book sadly to double check) Also the Wk isn't mortal, wouldn't be effected by the chill



- I'm fairly sure, though I can't prove it atm, that he was involved in the creation of the Draconians.

i don't think so. He knew about it, but i don't think he actually did anything



His armor, sword etc are reasonably close to indestructable from what I can tell. For one thing he's been using the same stuff for 300 odd years, apparently without cleaning or other forms of maintenence. It also survived the fire that destroyed Dargaard Keep, a fire so hot it burned through rock.
But magical weapons still get destroyed by the WK

Does Soth still have his holy sword however?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Glossing over the irrelevent Eragon parts.



He isn't protected from the WK (normal weapons can hurt him however). In a one on one the WK would simply win over a long time, because i don't think Soth can hurt him. Soth is most likely a better sword fighter, but can he actually hurt the WK? Soth has no magical protection against swords through he is immune to some magics
He is dangerous certainly, i don't deny that, just not enough

in theory, a hobo with a sword could kill him. i'm not saying Soth is a weaknling no, he could kill Arthas any day, but he doesn't have any sort of special protection from swords. So if the Wk simply swarmed him with a bunch of guys, he'd lose most of them but they would still prevail

Question: Soth is dead and has been for some four hundred years. Can a Morgul blade shank something with no physical body? Deathknight template or no, his death was described quite thoroughly, and he's often described as being nothing more than empty armour with glowing eyes.


Touche. I forgot about that one. It was young i recall

A forty foot long mature young dragon come into its own strength and magic, yes. :smallwink:


they never fought i believe. They both disagreeded, but Strahd one in the end, he got Soth to kill a rival and to go into his own demi plane (where he got stuck)

I never read the book admittedly, but wikipedia describes it "Soth attacked Strahd unceasingly and the vampire had no choice but to release Caradoc in order to keep his domain in one piece."


death knights do have phyical bodies, but they can turn incorpral for a brief amount of time, (I'm too afraid to open my book sadly to double check) Also the Wk isn't mortal, wouldn't be effected by the chill

Alright. Another example. Ausric Krell. Another deathknight (more of cowardly ass than a fallen but honourable man). He had no body left either, nothing but his suit of armour which was more like his 'essence'.


But magical weapons still get destroyed by the WK

Does Soth still have his holy sword however?
from
EE

If his sword was holy before it is now. It's not out of the question actually, since he was once highly placed in the knighthood.

But I think it's a part of him as much as his armour. Sundering it MIGHT work but it would be like trying to sunder an immensely powerful being as well.

[EvilElitest]

Glossing over the irrelevent Eragon parts.


At least acknowledge taht it was amazing



Question: Soth is dead and has been for some four hundred years. Can a Morgul blade shank something with no physical body? Deathknight template or no, his death was described quite thoroughly, and he's often described as being nothing more than empty armour with glowing eyes.

1) Well the morgul blade would have no effect in terms of magic
2) A normal sword can hurt him yes. I think Soth has a burned body, just often becomes ghostly (i wish somebody else could double check the time limit on taht


A forty foot long mature young dragon come into its own strength and magic, yes. :smallwink:

was it that big in the book


I never read the book admittedly, but wikipedia describes it "Soth attacked Strahd unceasingly and the vampire had no choice but to release Caradoc in order to keep his domain in one piece."

What happened i believe is taht Strahd simply was fed up with him and wanted him out because Soth was slaughtering random people. In the scene where Strahd is described he doesn't seem miffted, he has no love for Caradoc


Alright. Another example. Ausric Krell. Another deathknight (more of cowardly ass than a fallen but honourable man). He had no body left either, nothing but his suit of armour which was more like his 'essence'.

he is actually the sample death knight in the book, which i'm too afraid to double check (really, it is on the verge of falling apart


If his sword was holy before it is now. It's not out of the question actually, since he was once highly placed in the knighthood.

would it become unholy then?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

At least acknowledge taht it was amazing

The sociopath comments were hilarious. And intriguing. We need more sociopathic heroes.



1) Well the morgul blade would have no effect in terms of magic
2) A normal sword can hurt him yes. I think Soth has a burned body, just often becomes ghostly (i wish somebody else could double check the time limit on taht

Huh. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that it would be that easy. Someone would have done it before some time.


was it that big in the book

I don't remember and a brief glance doesn't say. But it was a bronze.


What happened i believe is taht Strahd simply was fed up with him and wanted him out because Soth was slaughtering random people. In the scene where Strahd is described he doesn't seem miffted, he has no love for Caradoc

I don't think anyone was fond of Caradoc by that point. But why didn't Strahd try and take out Soth himself if he was raising chaos?


he is actually the sample death knight in the book, which i'm too afraid to double check (really, it is on the verge of falling apart

Irony of ironies. :smallwink: In Amber and Ashes, Chemosh tells about how Krell became a deathknight. Zeboim was a little miffed that he murdered her son and sought him out. Chemosh's words? "I'm told that there wasn't enough left of him to fill a bucket." And in Amber and Iron Krell is musing to himself about how is armour is his 'body'. He clanks around a lot because he likes people to know he's coming and fear him, but he can be perfectly silent when he wants to.



would it become unholy then?
from
EE

Good question...

[Bago!!!]

EE, could give us a quote on the whole Strahd and Caradoc bit please about it? From what I have heard and read on many websites, he practically wreaked pure havoc on Strahd's kingdom.

Course Strahd has no love, he's a bloody vampire in ravenloft. EVIL! Well, thats actuelly wrong, but you get the idea. What he lost when he gave up Caradoc was any possibility of manipulating Lord Soth for his own ends.

Holy or unholy weapon.... hhhhmmmmmm... tough one...

But that is irrelivant. Sword skill wise, Lord Soth. He can outmatch Witch King without a doubt. He is epic level, with levels in fight, that I have little to no doubt.


And Arthas is more than a match for him, because arthas' magic is a demi god in his own right at the very least, has tremendous magic, a tremendous swordsman, and an incredibly shrewd tactition.


But yeah, lord soth is easily epic level.

Death Knight stats just plain ROCK! They have Ice wall at will, can probally dispell magic, can cast atleast one fireball, spells that hit said death knight have a high chance of doing nothing to him, another chance of reflecting off of them, they are immune to cold, with two other immunities if I am correct (though I forget what. Maybe Lightening and Fire?). Not only that, all of those spells are treated as a 20th level sorcerer casted them, or so I believe. Then the runes and words of pain, stun and such.

And if I recall, he also killed one of Strahd's Red Dragons, unless wikipedia lies to me. And I personally think that if he caused any trouble in Strahd's realm, such as killing a red dragon and causing havoc, he would try to confront himself. I think he did do that, and he did not do so well.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well I wouldn't say that Soth is an infinitely better swordsman because he's a deathknight. It's that he was one of the most skilled Solamnic Knights, who themselves were legendary for their skill at swordplay.

[EvilElitest]

The sociopath comments were hilarious. And intriguing. We need more sociopathic heroes.


It is sad because the writer isn't aware of this



Huh. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that it would be that easy. Someone would have done it before some time.


I said it was possible. It is possible to kill Soth with a sword. Now nobody pulled it off, because well, he lives in his nasty castle with his army. Also he is an incredible fighter, so killing him isn't hard. The Wk however can be hurt by Soth, and can just keep it up until eventually he hurt Soth. The one on one might take a few years actually, as both would fight until the WK shanked him to death (which wouldn't be easy). In the full scale battle, the Wk can just swarm him to death



I don't remember and a brief glance doesn't say. But it was a bronze.

red actually, and yes it was young p. 147


I don't think anyone was fond of Caradoc by that point. But why didn't Strahd try and take out Soth himself if he was raising chaos?
Strahd didn't care. Chapter 16 it shows Soth's attack on Strahd, who deliberately pretends to be upset by it (through Soth isn't fooled) The count then tells Soth where the ghost is (near the mists) knowing full well that if Soth enters the mists he will be stuck in his own realm. So he got rid of Soth



Irony of ironies. :smallwink: In Amber and Ashes, Chemosh tells about how Krell became a deathknight. Zeboim was a little miffed that he murdered her son and sought him out. Chemosh's words? "I'm told that there wasn't enough left of him to fill a bucket." And in Amber and Iron Krell is musing to himself about how is armour is his 'body'. He clanks around a lot because he likes people to know he's coming and fear him, but he can be perfectly silent when he wants to.

Just checked the book again, they aren't incorporal. Maybe his armor must be destroyed for him to die.

edit
Oh Soth can used magical attacks however to hurt the WK. Most of them are evil however



Good question...
If so it can't hurt the Wk




EE, could give us a quote on the whole Strahd and Caradoc bit please about it? From what I have heard and read on many websites, he practically wreaked pure havoc on Strahd's kingdom.

Course Strahd has no love, he's a bloody vampire in ravenloft. EVIL! Well, thats actuelly wrong, but you get the idea. What he lost when he gave up Caradoc was any possibility of manipulating Lord Soth for his own ends.
the entire chapter 16, too long to quote.

Also he gave up Caradoc to manipulate Soth into entering the mists



But that is irrelivant. Sword skill wise, Lord Soth. He can outmatch Witch King without a doubt. He is epic level, with levels in fight, that I have little to no doubt.
1) I'm willing to admit that Soth is a better swordsmen, but not an infintly better one, the WK is very good
2) Also how is his sword going to hurt the WK


And Arthas is more than a match for him, because arthas' magic is a demi god in his own right at the very least, has tremendous magic, a tremendous swordsman, and an incredibly shrewd tactition.

Most of Arthas' attack magic isn't going to work on ether Soth or the Wk. if we take away his undead, Arthas is powerful, but i don't think he could defeat Soth.
Also Arthas is an awful tactition. He overextends himself and has no unity in his forces, also has no political mindset


Death Knight stats just plain ROCK! They have Ice wall at will, can probally dispell magic, can cast atleast one fireball, spells that hit said death knight have a high chance of doing nothing to him, another chance of reflecting off of them, they are immune to cold, with two other immunities if I am correct (though I forget what. Maybe Lightening and Fire?). Not only that, all of those spells are treated as a 20th level sorcerer casted them, or so I believe. Then the runes and words of pain, stun and such.

This are a different death knight template you realize. They can control undead, use unholy fire, 13 power words, immunities to turning, briefly turn incorporal ect.
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

It is sad because the writer isn't aware of this

But imagine if he was and Eragon was an 'evil hero.'


I said it was possible. It is possible to kill Soth with a sword. Now nobody pulled it off, because well, he lives in his nasty castle with his army. Also he is an incredible fighter, so killing him isn't hard. The Wk however can be hurt by Soth, and can just keep it up until eventually he hurt Soth. The one on one might take a few years actually, as both would fight until the WK shanked him to death (which wouldn't be easy). In the full scale battle, the Wk can just swarm him to death

Why can't WK be hurt by Soth again? I thought there was a general 'prophecies off' rule in effect.


red actually, and yes it was young p. 147

Are we thinking the same dragon? I mean Fireflash the Bronze, from Dragons of Spring Dawning and the Test of the Twins. And he was old enough to fight with mature dragons in aerial combat.


Strahd didn't care. Chapter 16 it shows Soth's attack on Strahd, who deliberately pretends to be upset by it (through Soth isn't fooled) The count then tells Soth where the ghost is (near the mists) knowing full well that if Soth enters the mists he will be stuck in his own realm. So he got rid of Soth

Oh, cool.

[/QUOTE]Just checked the book again, they aren't incorporal. Maybe his armor must be destroyed for him to die. [/QUOTE]

That's the problem with source books and fluff. So often they clash with each other and we all argue over which is consistent.


edit
Oh Soth can used magical attacks however to hurt the WK. Most of them are evil however

As they say in Dragonlance, Evil turns in on itself. Just because something is evil doesn't mean it can't harm another evil being. Hence this thread. Hehe... To your knowledge, has the WK ever fought an evil being of approximately his power level? If not i don't think anyone has used an evil weapon or spell on him.

[EvilElitest]

But imagine if he was and Eragon was an 'evil hero.'

Then it would be amazing


Why can't WK be hurt by Soth again? I thought there was a general 'prophecies off' rule in effect.

no this isn't hte prophecy (no living man can hinder me), this is the fact that he has a spell that protects him from all but holy anti undead weapons and magic


Are we thinking the same dragon? I mean Fireflash the Bronze, from Dragons of Spring Dawning and the Test of the Twins. And he was old enough to fight with mature dragons in aerial combat.

oh i'm talking about Stahd red dragon guard, so we are not talking about the same dragon


Oh, cool.

thanks, it was odd i was walking past my shelf and it was just peeking out



That's the problem with source books and fluff. So often they clash with each other and we all argue over which is consistent.
well i don't thing e has ever been considered incorporeal, and in Knight of the Black Rose he was bite by a red dragon, so i think you can't hurt him, just not easily


As they say in Dragonlance, Evil turns in on itself. Just because something is evil doesn't mean it can't harm another evil being. Hence this thread. Hehe... To your knowledge, has the WK ever fought an evil being of approximately his power level? If not i don't think anyone has used an evil weapon or spell on him.
1) Well yeah, but the magic Soth has wouldn't work on the Wk. Unholy energy, power word kill/pain/madness ect. He has unholy fire, but the WK can use fire as well
2) No actually he hasn't, through i imagine the Wk would be considered unholy
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Then it would be amazing

Light Yagami, eat your heart out.


no this isn't hte prophecy (no living man can hinder me), this is the fact that he has a spell that protects him from all but holy anti undead weapons and magic

But since he's never been stabbed by unholy weapons we don't actually know if they work or not.


oh i'm talking about Stahd red dragon guard, so we are not talking about the same dragon

But he can kill dragons then. Apparently at will.


thanks, it was odd i was walking past my shelf and it was just peeking out

Lucky...all the books I want don't come out for a few months.


well i don't thing e has ever been considered incorporeal, and in Knight of the Black Rose he was bite by a red dragon, so i think you can't hurt him, just not easily

Hmm... I can't find any reliable info on Soth's game stats. They all seem to differ.


1) Well yeah, but the magic Soth has wouldn't work on the Wk. Unholy energy, power word kill/pain/madness ect. He has unholy fire, but the WK can use fire as well
2) No actually he hasn't, through i imagine the Wk would be considered unholy
from
EE

Oh, I doubt much of his magic would work. Power words Fear and Kill wouldn't work on undead, but Stun might ( I think. It did back in Baldurs gate at least...) and then theres his Dispel Magic at will thing, and fireball and wall of Ice and such.

[EvilElitest]

Light Yagami, eat your heart out.


He is just amazing


But since he's never been stabbed by unholy weapons we don't actually know if they work or not.


It said no other sword could do it however. Merry's was uniquly made. Magic might work i admit



But he can kill dragons then. Apparently at will.
1) Not at will, it was a hard fight both times
2) and dragons can be hurt by any weapon so.....


Lucky...all the books I want don't come out for a few months.
N, what was weird was on my book shel


Hmm... I can't find any reliable info on Soth's game stats. They all seem to differ.

I found it. p. 148 Knight of black rose

"Needle sharp teeth clamped down on the death knight's wrist"



Oh, I doubt much of his magic would work. Power words Fear and Kill wouldn't work on undead, but Stun might ( I think. It did back in Baldurs gate at least...) and then theres his Dispel Magic at will thing, and fireball and wall of Ice and such.

1) what would dispel do?
2) Ice and fire would do much to the WK ether
3) Stun can work on undead
What else does he have
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

It said no other sword could do it however. Merry's was uniquly made. Magic might work i admit
No other sword in Middle Earth. That is the intended meaning. Don't presume it means "every sword that anyone will ever put in a fantasy in the future and any sword of any fantasy previously", because JRR Tolkien could not have seen the swords in future fantasies, which actually has his paling in terms of power. Also, the unholy magic in LotRs belonged to Saurons side, so WK has never faced it before at all.


1) Not at will, it was a hard fight both times
2) and dragons can be hurt by any weapon so.....
1) He did so anyway.
2) Yeah... but they're... big... and aren't dragonscales hard?

[QUOTE]1) what would dispel do?
2) Ice and fire would do much to the WK ether
3) Stun can work on undead[QUOTE]
1) Are you clueless? Dispel would disable the WK's protection. That said, Soth would be able to harm him.
2) Unholy fire is different than normal fire. To the best of my knowledge, WK just uses fire.
3) Score one for Soth.

[EvilElitest]

No other sword in Middle Earth. That is the intended meaning. Don't presume it means "every sword that anyone will ever put in a fantasy in the future and any sword of any fantasy previously", because JRR Tolkien could not have seen the swords in future fantasies, which actually has his paling in terms of power. Also, the unholy magic in LotRs belonged to Saurons side, so WK has never faced it before at all.

You always try to pull this card, stop making me have to rebuke it. Really Stop doing this
1) Weather Tolkien saw other worlds or not is irrelevant, he made the characters protection, and so swords of a simliar nature to Merry's must be used (holy, anti undead)
2) Pales in comparison. You should know by know that ME can certainly hold its own against plenty of other setting, i remind you of Rowans hat
3) Except undead are immune to most of Soth's magic
4) and unholy tends not to hurt evil or undead creatures much. Soth might have some spells that can hurt him, but not many


1) He did so anyway.
2) Yeah... but they're... big... and aren't dragonscales hard?
1) But not auto kill, he had to fight and struggle, hence he isn't perfect
2) Yeah, but nothing a basic magic weapon can get through. They don't have some sort of absurd super special awesome protection



1) Are you clueless? Dispel would disable the WK's protection. That said, Soth would be able to harm him.
2) Unholy fire is different than normal fire. To the best of my knowledge, WK just uses fire.
3) Score one for Soth.
1) Dispel magic doesn't overcome natrual protections, for example a vampires protection from non magic weapons isn't taken away.
2) He summons fire, evil dude, Sauron uses evil fire, Balrog uses evil fire, stands to reason that the WK would as well. Also evil fire was used at the siege of minas Tirith, with the WK, a powerful caster overseeing it. Also why would unholy fire hurt him more, he is undead
3) Um, what. How would Stun not effected the WK be a score for Soth?
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

You always try to pull this card, stop making me have to rebuke it. Really Stop doing this
1) Weather Tolkien saw other worlds or not is irrelevant, he made the characters protection, and so swords of a simliar nature to Merry's must be used (holy, anti undead)
2) Pales in comparison. You should know by know that ME can certainly hold its own against plenty of other setting, i remind you of Rowans hat
3) Except undead are immune to most of Soth's magic
4) and unholy tends not to hurt evil or undead creatures much. Soth might have some spells that can hurt him, but not many
@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?
1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.


1) Dispel magic doesn't overcome natrual protections, for example a vampires protection from non magic weapons isn't taken away.
2) He summons fire, evil dude, Sauron uses evil fire, Balrog uses evil fire, stands to reason that the WK would as well. Also evil fire was used at the siege of minas Tirith, with the WK, a powerful caster overseeing it. Also why would unholy fire hurt him more, he is undead
3) Um, what. How would Stun not effected the WK be a score for Soth? 1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.

EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.

[Mr. Scaly]

He is just amazing

But to a captain is he a captain?


It said no other sword could do it however. Merry's was uniquly made. Magic might work i admit

I still think that line 'no other sword would have struck such a mighty blow' (paraphrased) refers to the fact that Merry's was designed to smite him, not that he's sword invincible. Without the enchantment protecting him Eowyn's stabbing did the trick.


1) Not at will, it was a hard fight both times
2) and dragons can be hurt by any weapon so.....

Um...he pointed at Fireflash and said "Die." :smalleek:


N, what was weird was on my book shel

But you have the books you want on your shelf...the ones i want, I still have to buy. :-P



I found it. p. 148 Knight of black rose

"Needle sharp teeth clamped down on the death knight's wrist"

Did said needle sharp teeth do any damage at all?


1) what would dispel do?
2) Ice and fire would do much to the WK ether
3) Stun can work on undead
What else does he have
from
EE

1) I figure that it would bring down his magical protections much like Merry's magical protection breaking sword did.
2) Just because a man can wield a gun doesn't mean he's immune to getting shot. :smalltongue: Horrible metaphor.
3) Then if it can work on undead, there should be no problem, right?

I don't know, I haven't seen his actual stats.

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago


1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead



2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one



3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
Such as?.......


4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.
You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead


1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.
1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune




EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.
1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago


1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead



2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one



3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
Such as?.......


4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.
You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead


1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.
1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune




EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.
1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago


1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead



2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one



3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
Such as?.......


4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.
You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead


1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.
1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune




EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.
1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago


1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead



2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one



3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
Such as?.......


4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.
You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead


1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.
1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune




EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.
1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago


1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.
We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead



2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.
Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one



3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.
Such as?.......


4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.
You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead


1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.
1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune




EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.
1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him.

Well, "specifically", it says “No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..." This says nothing about other weapons not being capable of hurting him, just that they wouldn't hurt him as much. I know I've quoted this exact line in several of the other threads you keep talking about this stuff being decided in so long ago. The matter of other "magic" weapons' effects on the WK isn't addressed at any point as nobody else ever actually manages to hit him that we get to hear about. At best, there isn't enough data to say what can and can't bypass whatever protections the WK has going for him (beyond the Barrow Blades, of course). You're entitled to your opinion, but it's unsporting to state it as fact. It's not like this quotation was even hard to find (I Googled "no other blade" and "bitter" and it was available in the first link along with several of the other results). Sure, the Barrow Blades were anti-Mordor/Angmar, but the elf-made swords (like Sting and Glamdring) were anti-Morgoth/orcs. Are you saying that you'll allow "holy" weapons from other settings but not ones from the same setting that were targeted towards a bigger evil? That would approach the argument that "nothing can hurt him unless it's specifically made for that and since other settings don't take that into account, he's immune from everything. Nyah nyah :smalltongue:" which none of us like in our vs. threads.

Anyway, I dislike the categories of "high magic" and "low magic". ME is definitely a setting where magic is not easily accessible (in the form of casting "spells" at least, artificing is fairly common as the Elves pretty much get it as a natural skill). What is present tends to be very strong, but just about any other modern fantasy setting that has magic at all will have much more of it floating around (especially since, in my experience, the protagonist(s) tend to have access to it; especially any fantasy that's been influenced by D&D). Instead of 2 or 3 characters in the entire setting being noteworthy magicians you end up with dozens if not hundreds or thousands. A matter of quantity, but not necessarily quality. However, just as flashy != powerful, it's also true to say flashy != weak. Impressiveness and strength are independent qualities here and there's no real reason to say that somebody from a non-ME setting couldn't theoretically overpower something from ME.

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.

[EvilElitest]

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.[/QUOTE]

[WalkingTarget]

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.[/QUOTE]

I take it this is either a rather badly botched response (wherein your actual reply got lost somehow) or an attempt to discredit everything else I said in the preceding post by pointing out a gap in my knowledge on Soth.

If the latter, I don't see how not knowing much about Dragonlance/Ravenloft has any effect on comments made about something out of Tolkien. You said that "no other type of weapon could hurt" the Witch-king and I pointed out that this is not a statement that is supported by the source material despite your repeated attempts to present it as such. I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument, not claiming victory for either competitor.

Edit @v - That's alright then. I dunno, maybe just a server hiccup as you posted? I generally always do a "preview post" to try to avoid weird stuff like that.

[EvilElitest]

I take it this is either a rather badly botched response (wherein your actual reply got lost somehow) or an attempt to discredit everything else I said in the preceding post by pointing out a gap in my knowledge on Soth.

If the latter, I don't see how not knowing much about Dragonlance/Ravenloft has any effect on comments made about something out of Tolkien. You said that "no other type of weapon could hurt" the Witch-king and I pointed out that this is not a statement that is supported by the source material despite your repeated attempts to present it as such. I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument, not claiming victory for either competitor.

no the former, i had a very long response, i'll try to bring it back. Why did only the last thing show up then?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

These forums have been pretty bad lately...



Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass

Whereas a truly evil Eragon would be a 'go out and destroy' badass.


2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical

Looking up the description for Dispel Magic it can either end or suppress the magical effects on a person/being/object. And it's an enchantment that gives WK his protections i think.


3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to

Looking over the d20srd.org description of the Power Word spells it doesn't say anything about undead being immune to them... Do you mean WK has spell resistance?


4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after

One less dragon in the world. It must take a lot to really hurt him then.


5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

Right, undead are immune to cold I think.

[EvilElitest]

These forums have been pretty bad lately...

I know. Walking Target, there are holes in your argument sadly, but i'll repost my old post i lost tomorrow (i'm still hurt you thought i'd pull such a low trick)



Whereas a truly evil Eragon would be a 'go out and destroy' badass.
Like Artimis Enteria


Looking up the description for Dispel Magic it can either end or suppress the magical effects on a person/being/object. And it's an enchantment that gives WK his protections i think.
Then it would be a counterspell and the WK's will vs. Soths.


Looking over the d20srd.org description of the Power Word spells it doesn't say anything about undead being immune to them... Do you mean WK has spell resistance?

Um, the specific power word powers

Power word kill is useless
Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect


One less dragon in the world. It must take a lot to really hurt him then.
Oh yeah, you can hurt Soth phyically, it is just really really hard and takes a lot, i don't deny that



Right, undead are immune to cold I think.
Yep, through that goes for Soth as well
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Like Artimis Enteria

Or Kitiara, Kerrigan, and Dhoulmagus.


Then it would be a counterspell and the WK's will vs. Soths.

It's at least feasible then, though I have no idea whose will is stronger.


Um, the specific power word powers

Power word kill is useless
Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect

Well I don't know about Pain, Madness and Confusion, but I know for a fact that Soth has Blind, Kill, and Stun.


Oh yeah, you can hurt Soth phyically, it is just really really hard and takes a lot, i don't deny that

Speaks lots about his swordsmanship that no one has ever wounded him and lived to tell about it.


Yep, through that goes for Soth as well
from
EE

On a side note, in Test of the Twins he literally froze the gates into shattering. THAT is cool.

[Bago!!!]

Thats not counter spelling unless the WK decides to cast a spell, then Soth can counter the spell, according to D&D rules atleast. You have to ready an action to counter spells. Dispelling is just suppressing or cancelling an already exsistant spell.

[WalkingTarget]

I know. Walking Target, there are holes in your argument sadly, but i'll repost my old post i lost tomorrow (i'm still hurt you thought i'd pull such a low trick)

If you've got something that you think I'm missing there, go ahead. (also, note that my first thought was that your post had been lost somehow as it seemed a bit out of character, I was just trying to cover all the bases there :smalltongue:)


Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect


Power Word: Pain isn't in the SRD. How does it work? Purely mental or is it actually doing something to the target's body (and, as a D&D Wraith is not the same as a Ring Wraith, the latter has a body). Of course, if the spell description specifies that it doesn't work on Undead, transparency between settings would dictate that we'd have to extend that to the Nazgul (Tolkien's use of "undead" might not totally coincide with the mechanics of D&D, so it could be argued either way I guess, but seems like an even-less-resolvable-than-usual problem with definitions to me), but the closest I can find in SRD is Symbol of Pain which is neither Mind-affecting nor a Death effect (which Blind, Kill, or Stun are so Undead-type creatures are immune).

Again, we're dealing with an effect of the Barrow Blade, but the WK can definitely feel pain of some sort:

"Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee."

Hell, the repeated use of the word "bitter" in this and the other quote could be seen to imply that "no other blade" would cause him as much pain ("a wound so bitter"), not necessarily that nothing else would cause him pain at all.

[EvilElitest]

Alright, here we go with the lost response




Well, "specifically", it says “No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..." This says nothing about other weapons not being capable of hurting him, just that they wouldn't hurt him as much. I know I've quoted this exact line in several of the other threads you keep talking about this stuff being decided in so long ago. The matter of other "magic" weapons' effects on the WK isn't addressed at any point as nobody else ever actually manages to hit him that we get to hear about. At best, there isn't enough data to say what can and can't bypass whatever protections the WK has going for him (beyond the Barrow Blades, of course). You're entitled to your opinion, but it's unsporting to state it as fact. It's not like this quotation was even hard to find (I Googled "no other blade" and "bitter" and it was available in the first link along with several of the other results). Sure, the Barrow Blades were anti-Mordor/Angmar, but the elf-made swords (like Sting and Glamdring) were anti-Morgoth/orcs.

1) Tolkien said that only a barrow blade could have worked. If an elvish blade, or other powerful weapon could have worked, Tolkien would have said so. He would have made clear that another blade could have hurt him. However he never says "No other blade, except those forged by the Elvish smiths of old" or "No other blade, save perhaps the blades forged in the first ages of man to fight the Great Enemy". It says no other. It focuses upon the barrow blades specifically as being the only weapons able to inflict so much damage upon him. It focuses upon barrow blades, and makes no mention of other anti evil weapons in Tolkien's own world, thus logically they wouldn't have the same effect
2) So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Only the barrow blade can break the spell that gives him protection against normal weapons. Only this weapon could have destoryed his spell him in such a manner, or one like it in design


Are you saying that you'll allow "holy" weapons from other settings but not ones from the same setting that were targeted towards a bigger evil? That would approach the argument that "nothing can hurt him unless it's specifically made for that and since other settings don't take that into account, he's immune from everything. Nyah nyah :smalltongue:" which none of us like in our vs. threads.

1) Well because the super powerful anti evil blades in ME couldn't have hurt him like that, other wise Tolkien would have mentioned it. It did say no other blade, the elvish blades wouldn't have done as much
2)I do allow powerful holy anti undead weapons from other settings. THe master sword could have hurt him. Frostmourn would not

also i think power word pain only works on living targets
from
EE

[warty goblin]

Alright, here we go with the lost response




1) Tolkien said that only a barrow blade could have worked. If an elvish blade, or other powerful weapon could have worked, Tolkien would have said so. He would have made clear that another blade could have hurt him. However he never says "No other blade, except those forged by the Elvish smiths of old" or "No other blade, save perhaps the blades forged in the first ages of man to fight the Great Enemy". It says no other. It focuses upon the barrow blades specifically as being the only weapons able to inflict so much damage upon him. It focuses upon barrow blades, and makes no mention of other anti evil weapons in Tolkien's own world, thus logically they wouldn't have the same effect
2) So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Only the barrow blade can break the spell that gives him protection against normal weapons. Only this weapon could have destoryed his spell him in such a manner, or one like it in design


1) Well because the super powerful anti evil blades in ME couldn't have hurt him like that, other wise Tolkien would have mentioned it. It did say no other blade, the elvish blades wouldn't have done as much
2)I do allow powerful holy anti undead weapons from other settings. THe master sword could have hurt him. Frostmourn would not

also i think power word pain only works on living targets
from
EE

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Walking Target on this one. The barrow blade is clearly the most effective weapon against the Witch-King, but it is not definitively the only weapon that would work. We already know this is the case since the Witch King, along with the rest of the Nazgul were robbed of their form by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. Not a perma-kill, but enough damage to severely retard the Witch King, at least temporarily. And that flood sounds easily like the sort of thing that Soth could top if he wanted to (Abyssal Blast and Ice Wall come to mind). Remember this is a being who is fairly certain that he is more powerful than any non-Raistlin mortal in the entirety of Krynn, up to and including archmages, etc.

It is also made fairly clear that the Witch King can indeed feel pain, and hence is likely not immune to Power Word Pain. Blinding would obviously not function however, since the Nazgul don't "see" in the normal sense of the word.

[EvilElitest]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Walking Target on this one. The barrow blade is clearly the most effective weapon against the Witch-King, but it is not definitively the only weapon that would work. We already know this is the case since the Witch King, along with the rest of the Nazgul were robbed of their form by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. Not a perma-kill, but enough damage to severely retard the Witch King, at least temporarily. And that flood sounds easily like the sort of thing that Soth could top if he wanted to (Abyssal Blast and Ice Wall come to mind). Remember this is a being who is fairly certain that he is more powerful than any non-Raistlin mortal in the entirety of Krynn, up to and including archmages, etc.

You forget WG, that i already said eariler in the thread taht i admit that direct magic attacks could hurt him. That i have no problem with. It is sword attacks i'm making a case against. The Ford was a direct magical attack, that over comes his spell.


As for Soth, Ice wall (how many times can he do it), um he is the Witch King of Agmar, the icy realm if you recall

And abyssal blast does unholy magic




It is also made fairly clear that the Witch King can indeed feel pain, and hence is likely not immune to Power Word Pain. Blinding would obviously not function however, since the Nazgul don't "see" in the normal sense of the word.

No i think the spell power word pain is described to not hurt undead. can somebody check that actually?
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

I find it ridiculous how you find only the barrow blades are the single thing effective against the WK.
I think you are completely misinterpretting this statement...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter
Does it say "No other blade could have penetrated the WK's spell"? No. Does it say "No other blade could have dispelled it"? No. It is such a bitter wound, I believe, because it was caused by a halfling... I'm sure the WK would think himself vastly above them.
You are saying that even Anduril, which I believe was infused with magic of the Valar, greater beings than Sauron that actually destroyed him once (Resulting in the loss of his shapeshifting powers), is utterly incapable of slaying an underling of Sauron. That seems inconceivable.


And abyssal blast does unholy magic
It is divine fire. Not unholy. Even if it isn't, it projects such a force...
Case in point...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
I believe this is abyssal blast, and man it packs a punch.
Yeah, my point, whether or not it actually is effective, it has to at least force the WK back a good way and stun him.


As for Soth, Ice wall (how many times can he do it), um he is the Witch King of Agmar, the icy realm if you recall But does that make him any more capable of breaking through it? Does that make any of his minions immune? No, I would not think so. You already tried a point similar to this, which we countered in the LK vs. Sauron Thread. Orcs being from a icy land and being naturally immune to Northrends extreme weather.
WK may be the ruler of an icy realm, but how often does he go there? Does that give a reason why he is invulnerable to a magical wall of ice that is in no way natural.
If direct magic attacks work, why do you deny the effectiveness of fire and ice? Because the WK has control over them? A wizard has control of magic, but that doesn't make him any less susceptable to it.
I remain at my oppinion that Soth can actually defeat the WK.

[EvilElitest]

I find it ridiculous how you find only the barrow blades are the single thing effective against the WK.
I think you are completely misinterpretting this statement...


No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
yes it actually does. A barrow blade or something of similar make is needed to break his spell. So another good anti undead sword is needed


And Lord Soth does not have a good sword
In fact, i'm not even sure he has a magical sword. You called it epic, with no basis.


Does it say "No other blade could have penetrated the WK's spell"? No. Does it say "No other blade could have dispelled it"? No. It is such a bitter wound, I believe, because it was caused by a halfling... I'm sure the WK would think himself vastly above them.
Actually in that tense, he means bitter as in "Painful, damaging"


You are saying that even Anduril, which I believe was infused with magic of the Valar, greater beings than Sauron that actually destroyed him once (Resulting in the loss of his shapeshifting powers), is utterly incapable of slaying an underling of Sauron. That seems inconceivable.
1) Actually Anduril is not made by the Valar, it was made by the greatest dwarf smith and reforged by Elrond
2) Tolkien makes no mention to it, and Aragon does not use his sword against the Nazgul at weather top. So no.


It is divine fire. Not unholy. Even if it isn't, it projects such a force...
Case in point...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
I believe this is abyssal blast, and man it packs a punch.
Yeah, my point, whether or not it actually is effective, it has to at least force the WK back a good way and stun him.

1) That is a normal Death knight, not a Dragonlance Death Knight. Soth's kind are stronger, but they use unholy fire. It deals unholy damage, which heals undead
2) I don't believe it would drive him back, makes no mention of it in the article


But does that make him any more capable of breaking through it? Does that make any of his minions immune? No, I would not think so. You already tried a point similar to this, which we countered in the LK vs. Sauron Thread. Orcs being from a icy land and being naturally immune to Northrends extreme weather.
WK may be the ruler of an icy realm, but how often does he go there? Does that give a reason why he is invulnerable to a magical wall of ice that is in no way natural.
If direct magic attacks work, why do you deny the effectiveness of fire and ice? Because the WK has control over them? A wizard has control of magic, but that doesn't make him any less susceptable to it.

Except he is the lord of the icy magic there. And he is undead. Undead are immune to cold. Because you know, they don't have a body to be forzen

Also, and i forget what source it came from (Apendix, Simeralion, unfinished tales) the lord of Angmar is said to have power over frost and fire



I remain at my oppinion that Soth can actually defeat the WK.

And i personally think the first Batman and Robin was an amazing film of untold coolness, but that isn't the point

Now lets reiterate

Soth has a limit number of spells that can actually hurt the Witch King. The witch king can hurt soth normally, and a flaming sword does help (along with a giant mace). In single combat, it is uncertain, but advantage Witch King

In the full scale battle, the WK simply have the sheer numbers to wipe out the Blue Dragon army. And then can simply swarm Soth to death (might take a hundred guys, but hey)
from
EE

[Matar]

We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

This is just... wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. You should never use this type of argument, it's just plain flawed and utterly moronic.


yes it actually does. A barrow blade or something of similar make is needed to break his spell. So another good anti undead sword is needed


And Lord Soth does not have a good sword
In fact, I'm not even sure he has a magical sword. You called it epic, with no basis.

This statement may be true in the Tolkin-Verse (And ever then, people seem to disagree with you) but that's the only place it's true.

If the author states something, then it true -for the authors fiction- only. Weapons for other types of fiction are exempt from the ruling so long as there is logical reason to assume so.

Let me try to put this in a way you (might) understand.

1: In the Tolkin-Verse the Witch-King has an Enchantment that makes all normal weapons unable to harm him.
2: The Barrow Blade is the only holy weapon that can harm him in the Tolkin-Verse.
3: In the Tolkin-Verse only the Barrow blade can harm the Witch-King.

That's it. In the Tolkin-Verse, no farther then that. Powerful weapons from other types of places are exempt. Why? Because I don't recall Tolkin saying "The Witch-King can't be harmed by any weapons, including those from other types of fiction"

Now, does this mean ALL weapons from other storys can hurt him? No, only those of significant power. So a Normal sword from DnD won't do anything, or a +2 blade. But something like Frostmourn from Warcraft, Goku's fist from Dragonball Z, Excalibur from Fate/Stay Night, or Gae-Blog from Fate/Stay Night will do the trick.

Why do we do this? Why is this the proper way to debate? Because when you make people from two different types of fiction face off against each-other, the rules from their world have a bad habit of breaking.

Also.

Why not back up your main argument with quotes, as you always ask other people to do? This whole "Witch-King" shield is your main argument, yet you don't offer any quotes or anything. And you, quite often actually, misinterpret or just falsely state information on this Middle-Earth stuff. (Lol Sauron not being effected by a nuke)

The only quote I see, and the only one I see being offered is this.



No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..."

And this doesn't say no weapon would effect him, only that no blade (In the Tolkin-Verse) would have done it so well.

If Sloth has an epic weapon, then it can hurt the Witch-King. If not, then it won't. /End.

[Mr. Scaly]

EE, I hate to say it...but if WK doesn't have a body how'd he manage to get stabbed by a hobbit or even manage to hold a sword and wear armour? There must be 'something' holding up all that gear.

As to his weapon, I'm sure it's heavily magical...items possessed by powerful undead have a way of becoming powerful just by association. I don't know exactly how strong it is though since I can't seem to find a reliable description of it.

And finally...I'm not even going to touch the whole 'WK can't be stabbed by anything but an anti-undead sword ever' because both sides are firmly entrenched and not going to break. Suffice to say, I wouldn't be arguing for Soth if I didn't think it would work for him.

[EvilElitest]

This is just... wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. You should never use this type of argument, it's just plain flawed and utterly moronic.



Not it is not.
we assume magically works normally unless there is something that dictates otherwise. The Witch Kings fear? It will work unless a being is described or likely to be immune or resistant to fear (like say, lord Soth). Unless a being is specifically said to be protected from a certain power, they aren't immune, nor can they break other people's powers without special abilities


For example, The Lich King can use cold magic. It will effect any person who doesn't have magic resistance


This statement may be true in the Tolkin-Verse (And ever then, people seem to disagree with you) but that's the only place it's true.

If the author states something, then it true -for the authors fiction- only. Weapons for other types of fiction are exempt from the ruling so long as there is logical reason to assume so.
And yet there needs to be a logical reason. Link's master sword could hurt the Witch King because it is "all evils bane", through it would be destroyed in the process. However as a weapon like Narzil couldn't hurt him, then a weapon like Excalibur wouldn't (unless it has some sort of anti undead power that i'm not aware. Just because a weapon has a label "powerful" doesn't mean it is suited to getting through a certain power.


Let me try to put this in a way you (might) understand.

1: In the Tolkin-Verse the Witch-King has an Enchantment that makes all normal weapons unable to harm him.
2: The Barrow Blade is the only holy weapon that can harm him in the Tolkin-Verse.
3: In the Tolkin-Verse only the Barrow blade can harm the Witch-King.

That's it. In the Tolkin-Verse, no farther then that. Powerful weapons from other types of places are exempt. Why? Because I don't recall Tolkin saying "The Witch-King can't be harmed by any weapons, including those from other types of fiction"

Except even magical weapons in LotRs can't hurt him, like Narzil or Sting. Barrow blades, or weapons like barrow blades can hurt him, but not weapons


Now, does this mean ALL weapons from other storys can hurt him? No, only those of significant power. So a Normal sword from DnD won't do anything, or a +2 blade. But something like Frostmourn from Warcraft, Goku's fist from Dragonball Z, Excalibur from Fate/Stay Night, or Gae-Blog from Fate/Stay Night will do the trick.
None of these weapons are anti undead
1) Frostmourn is evil, and has no anti undead properties. I see no reason why it would hurt him. It is said to be powerful, but that doesn't allow it to become anti undead (you might make a case with chaos damage, but even then i don't think that dispels protection from spells)
2) Goku's first is just a powerful attack, it doesn't actually have any specific attack against undead
3) Why? Just because they are powerful, there are powerful weapons in LOTRs that can't do the trick. YOu need a specific power.
Just because a weapon is considered magical and powerful doesn't mean it is suited to over come a specific enchantment


Why do we do this? Why is this the proper way to debate? Because when you make people from two different types of fiction face off against each-other, the rules from their world have a bad habit of breaking.
This is frankly, an dishonorable way to argue. The WK has a protection against most weapons, "power level" isn't hte issue. THe issue is what their enchantment is, not how powerful they are, because other wise Glamring could have done it. It is silly to simply say that a weapon works for no logical basis other than it suiting your purpose. It really is, because it throws aside logic and discussion in exchange for what you want to win. I admit it isn't very fair that Soth can't hurt the WK, him not having any powerful weapons that we are aware of, but you can't simply state that a weapon can hurt him "because you say so" It is utterly absurd, because there isn't any basis. Why can Lord Soth hurt the WK? He weapon has no mention of being anti undead (unless he kept the one from his paladin days, and i don't think he can actually use that, at least easily). Why can Goku's first hurt him? It might be devastating but it can't over come magic as far as no (through the super blast might count as powerful enough in the same way the river was, but that is the magic thing coming from the first, not the first itself)

Better example, Excalibur from taht game, why can it hurt him? Is it anti undead? Is it forged to hurt undead or incorporeal beings? Does it have any specific power to harm undead? Or does it just have a label saying powerful? So does Narzil, and yet it wasn't mentioned of being able to hurt the Wk? Nor Sting, or Orcish, or any other middle earth sword. Simply saying that stuff from other worlds can hurt him "Because they can" is manipulating the situation to suit your own purposes, and that is extremly foul play.

.........is apologize

Now forgive my anger, maybe i just misunderstand your intentions, but really, you can't have stuff work simply because "It can" It is just suiting your own purpose. If you can find a logical reason for Soth's weapon being able to hurt him, like say, it in fact being able to hurt Banshees or other undead due to special enchancment, then i'd gladly say "Well then, the Wk is screwed" because Soth is a better swordsmen. however there needs to be a basis, a logical reason other than it suiting your purpose



Also.

Why not back up your main argument with quotes, as you always ask other people to do? This whole "Witch-King" shield is your main argument, yet you don't offer any quotes or anything. And you, quite often actually, misinterpret or just falsely state information on this Middle-Earth stuff. (Lol Sauron not being effected by a nuke)
1) What do you want? I've already provided the proof the WK's shield, what else do you need? We aren't using the prophecy, what else do you need?
2) Try backing that up. I have actually provided a massive amount of correct information about ME. Occasionally WK has corrected me, and occasionally i've corrected him, but i haven't made false statements. Because you call me a liar, witch is a great discrediting attempt, actually provide examples, because other wise you get
3) and out right lie I actually didn't really touch the Sauron Nuke issue. I commented upon his being destoryed by the Breaking of teh World (IE the entire world's shape changing him and the Island he was one being crushed underneath the earth) but i didn't care about the Nuke thing ether way
Before attempting to discredit me, back yourself up




The only quote I see, and the only one I see being offered is this.
Correction, the quote is this



No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
You need a barrow blade or something like it to break his spell

And this doesn't say no weapon would effect him, only that no blade (In the Tolkin-Verse) would have done it so well.
You need to have the specific requirements to get over the enchantment. Another weapon that is in fact anti undead could hurt him i admit, like Ashbringer, which isn't Tolkien verse, but it still needs to be anti undead or anti wraith



If Sloth has an epic weapon, then it can hurt the Witch-King. If not, then it won't. /End.
He needs more than an epic weapon, which Glamring is, he needs a weapon that can actually over come undead powers



EE, I hate to say it...but if WK doesn't have a body how'd he manage to get stabbed by a hobbit or even manage to hold a sword and wear armour? There must be 'something' holding up all that gear.
Same reason why a D&D ghost can


As to his weapon, I'm sure it's heavily magical...items possessed by powerful undead have a way of becoming powerful just by association. I don't know exactly how strong it is though since I can't seem to find a reliable description of it.
Also is it anti undead



And finally...I'm not even going to touch the whole 'WK can't be stabbed by anything but an anti-undead sword ever' because both sides are firmly entrenched and not going to break. Suffice to say, I wouldn't be arguing for Soth if I didn't think it would work for him.

The thing is you can't have it work because you want it to work, it has to work for a logical reason
from
EE

[Matar]

Not it is not.
we assume magically works normally unless there is something that dictates otherwise. The Witch Kings fear? It will work unless a being is described or likely to be immune or resistant to fear (like say, lord Soth). Unless a being is specifically said to be protected from a certain power, they aren't immune, nor can they break other people's powers without special abilities


For example, The Lich King can use cold magic. It will effect any person who doesn't have magic resistance

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.


Except even magical weapons in LotRs can't hurt him, like Narzil or Sting. Barrow blades, or weapons like barrow blades can hurt him, but not weapons

They are magic, sure. But not nearly close to the power were speaking of.


None of these weapons are anti undead
1) Frostmourn is evil, and has no anti undead properties. I see no reason why it would hurt him. It is said to be powerful, but that doesn't allow it to become anti undead (you might make a case with chaos damage, but even then i don't think that dispels protection from spells)
2) Goku's first is just a powerful attack, it doesn't actually have any specific attack against undead
3) Why? Just because they are powerful, there are powerful weapons in LOTRs that can't do the trick. YOu need a specific power.
Just because a weapon is considered magical and powerful doesn't mean it is suited to over come a specific enchantment

1: It's an object of insane power. The power of the weapon can't compare to anything in the LoTR-Verse. Tolkin never considered that the Witch-King would ever fight someone who had taht kind of weapon. So it -doesn't matter- if he said no weapon besides the Barrow Blade could hurt the Witch-King, because he never considered something of such massive power going against it.

2: Same as one. Are you honestly telling me that a punch with so much force that it send people through -planets- won't kill him with ease? Please. What's next, saying he would live a Falcon Punch?


Now forgive my anger, maybe i just misunderstand your intentions, but really, you can't have stuff work simply because "It can" It is just suiting your own purpose. If you can find a logical reason for Soth's weapon being able to hurt him, like say, it in fact being able to hurt Banshees or other undead due to special enchancment, then i'd gladly say "Well then, the Wk is screwed" because Soth is a better swordsmen. however there needs to be a basis, a logical reason other than it suiting your purpose

Piting two people against each other from two diffrent places in fiction, and making them fight each other even though there very -nature- is diffrent is illogical.

When doing a VS thread you have to go by common sense, and comprimises more then literal author interpritation. Otherwhys things just get fecking dumb.


He needs more than an epic weapon, which Glamring is, he needs a weapon that can actually over come undead powers

Then it will hurt him. Diffrent levels of power, mixing in a way both authors never intended them to.

Your debate shouldn't be "It won't hurt him." It doesn't work like that, and is an ignorant stance to take. A more logical stance to take would be "Okay, but would effect as much as it would someone else?" and compromise with people. Reach a ground everyone agrees with. Maybe not everyone is happy with it, but still can -agree- with it.

[Corolinth]

On the numbers thing, it should be pointed out if it hasn't been already that Mordor's armies were nowhere near as big as they appear in the movies. They fielded several thousand for various battles. While that sounds like a lot of troops on paper, it wasn't impressive enough for a movie. There may be a numbers advantage, but it won't be greater than 3:1 (which is something that wouldn't overcome dragons or draconians).

[EvilElitest]

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.

Who is TTGL? Doesn't matter, if mr. Freeze it all is described to be able to freeze anything, then so would this TTGL, who ever they are. Just because they come from another universe doesn't mean they get some sort of special immunity.


They are magic, sure. But not nearly close to the power were speaking of.

Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe



1: It's an object of insane power. The power of the weapon can't compare to anything in the LoTR-Verse. Tolkin never considered that the Witch-King would ever fight someone who had taht kind of weapon. So it -doesn't matter- if he said no weapon besides the Barrow Blade could hurt the Witch-King, because he never considered something of such massive power going against it.


Frostmourne is a unique and indestructible item - an artifact-level bastard sword with the following abilities: an increased chance to hit, increased damage, an increased chance of scoring a critical hit, an increased attack speed, the ability to strike incorporeal creatures as though they were fully corporeal, the ability to cause bleeding wounds and reduce the victim's stamina, bonus damage against good-aligned beings, bonus damage against living beings, and a life-draining effect that heals its wielder when he deals damage.
1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.
It is powerful yes, but it "doesn't compare with anything in Middle Earth". What, stealing somebody's soul is that impressive?
2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements


2: Same as one. Are you honestly telling me that a punch with so much force that it send people through -planets- won't kill him with ease? Please. What's next, saying he would live a Falcon Punch?
Yes and yes. It would knock him over, but it can't break his spell. Just because can smash a planet doesn't mean it can actually hurt him (through i imagine floating around in space wouldn't do him well at all). However it isn't anti undead. It simply is powerful, which doesn't mean it can break his specific requirements



Piting two people against each other from two diffrent places in fiction, and making them fight each other even though there very -nature- is diffrent is illogical.
not really, it is just making predictions on who will win. You use their powers as they are described to have, and then let it out. Now if the Wk fought, i don't know, somebody with an anti undead sword, like Ashbringer, then i can see him dying. If he fought, Rastalin he'd lose


When doing a VS thread you have to go by common sense, and comprimises more then literal author interpritation. Otherwhys things just get fecking dumb.
No, establishing your own rules to suit your purpose is freaking dumb. In a vs. thread, you use the powers of teh characters, and if an author says he can do something, then he can do that thing. If you need a specific power to over come his spell, then you need that power. Otherwise you cheating, your changing the nature of the contestants powers to suit your own purposes.


Then it will hurt him. Diffrent levels of power, mixing in a way both authors never intended them to.

The author's intention in this case doesn't matter, unless they wrote something on the subject. What matters is the powers of the characters. Soth could use an epic weapon, just like Glamring is an epic weapon, i doesn't let him over come the WK's powers without reason


Your debate shouldn't be "It won't hurt him." It doesn't work like that, and is an ignorant stance to take.
Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair.



A more logical stance to take would be "Okay, but would effect as much as it would someone else?" and compromise with people. Reach a ground everyone agrees with. Maybe not everyone is happy with it, but still can -agree- with it.

So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there


On the numbers thing, it should be pointed out if it hasn't been already that Mordor's armies were nowhere near as big as they appear in the movies. They fielded several thousand for various battles. While that sounds like a lot of troops on paper, it wasn't impressive enough for a movie. There may be a numbers advantage, but it won't be greater than 3:1 (which is something that wouldn't overcome dragons or draconians).
actually Mordor had more people in the books than in the movie. Can you please just trust me on this one and not make me explain it, it takes like a page
from
EE

[Matar]

Who is TTGL? Doesn't matter, if mr. Freeze it all is described to be able to freeze anything, then so would this TTGL, who ever they are. Just because they come from another universe doesn't mean they get some sort of special immunity.

Tengan Toppa Gurren Laggan. It's a robot that's about as tall as... say, 12 galaxys? And can toss them around for fun. And can take a blast from something with the same energy out-put as the Big Bang.

And no, no it wouldn't. You have missed the entire point; ether through your ignorance or my poor wording. Or a mix of the two, doesn't matter.

The quote of Mr. Freeze is only true in -that- work of fiction, and doesn't remain true in any other type. Why is this, even though the author so clearly stated that it would? Because he only said that -in regard to his story-.

Here's another example. Azathoth touches Mt.Freeze. Does he get frozen? Of course not! He's freaking Azathoth! Azathoth wants to destroy the one-ring for -whatever- reason. Does he destroy it, even though Tolkin said it was impossible? Yes, he does. Why? Because when Tolkin says something like "It's impossible" It's only impossible in LoTR.

And incase you don't know who Azathoth is, google it. H.P Lovecraft is incredible.


Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe

In Tolkin-Verse, sure. But there nothing compared to the stuff from other fiction. Excaliber from Fate/Stay Night, Frostmourn from Warcraft 3, The Red-Ruby wand from DnD.


1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.

Semantics. Please, that's honestly rather sad. You know what I meant, Nit-Picking just shows how poor of a sport you are.


2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements

No, if Tolkin knew about it he wouldn't have made an exception. Wanna know why? Because it doesn't effect his fiction. That's all he covered, his fiction. If he said some peasent with no powers could defeat anyone, then that would be true... in the Tolkin-Verse. But -only- in the Tolkin-Verse. Take him out of it, and it holds no power at all.


The author's intention in this case doesn't matter, unless they wrote something on the subject. What matters is the powers of the characters. Soth could use an epic weapon, just like Glamring is an epic weapon, i doesn't let him over come the WK's powers without reason

What you just said right makes no sense.


No, establishing your own rules to suit your purpose is freaking dumb. In a vs. thread, you use the powers of teh characters, and if an author says he can do something, then he can do that thing. If you need a specific power to over come his spell, then you need that power. Otherwise you cheating, your changing the nature of the contestants powers to suit your own purposes.

The character can do that thing in regards to the story he's in. Take a character from LoTR, give him a sheild that the author says will not break, and put him in a VS contest with Azathoth. Have Azathoth bitch-slap the dude with a tentical and the dude dies, and sheild breaks. Why? Diffrent fiction, diffrent levels of power that were never meant to mix. And as such, the absolute rules for one -don't work- in the other.


Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair.

And established power -in the Tolkin-verse-. The absolute there means bunk in another world. Will it protect the WK from most weapons? Sure. From alot of magic weapons? Sure. But reach a certain level of power, and the absolute from one world means jack in another.


So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there

Im asking for you to learn how to debate.

This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless.

[Steven the Lich]

Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe

1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.
It is powerful yes, but it "doesn't compare with anything in Middle Earth". What, stealing somebody's soul is that impressive?
2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements
Alright, as a statement, Frostmourne was forged by demons... Who are pretty much the main bane of all life and creation. This is the source of the chaos damage, which bypasses divine armor. DIVINE armor. Quit overlooking that detail, as it is important.
1) The Weapon is in almost every meaning of the word godlike. You'd have a hell of a time looking for a weapon belonging to any mere mortal in Azeroth that even comes close to Frostmournes power. I can only name Atiesh and Ashbringer, both of which outpower any weapon in ME. Frostmourne is definitely stronger than the Twin Blades of Azzinoth belonging to Illidan, and we can go on this assumption because we see Arthas defeat Illidan (Whether or not the fight was supposed to be longer is of no consequence, he would have defeated him anyway). The fact it steals souls, upon wielding it or cutting someone and killing them with it, is further explanation of its epic power (And I think it would bypass the ring wraiths reincarnation cycle thing).
2) Saying he never made the exception and knowing that he never knew it just doesn't mix. Heres what we know...
*Frostmourne is from a high magic setting, not low or mid, high.
*Frostmourne is chaos in a word, it is capable of passing through divine armor. Divine in a high magic setting I believe would surpass the WK's shield with ease.
*LotRs is a mid-magic setting. Frostmourne is from high magic setting.
The above points could very well be used for several epic weapons.

Yes and yes. It would knock him over, but it can't break his spell. Just because can smash a planet doesn't mean it can actually hurt him (through i imagine floating around in space wouldn't do him well at all). However it isn't anti undead. It simply is powerful, which doesn't mean it can break his specific requirements This said, Freezas death ball would not nuke him, Broileys super array of green energy blasts would not even scratch him... EE, what you are saying here... just totaled your credibility. Doesn't matter if they aren't specicially meant to destory undead... If it packs that much force, WK should be destroyed easily. DBZ is &^%*ing god like in every meaning of the word. Except it is all destruction... no creation.


not really, it is just making predictions on who will win. You use their powers as they are described to have, and then let it out. Now if the Wk fought, i don't know, somebody with an anti undead sword, like Ashbringer, then i can see him dying. If he fought, Rastalin he'd lose I can see him dying against a guy with Frostmourne. Utterly.


Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair. You need something like a Barrow Blade in the bloody Tolkien-Verse. You are taking the authors words (Or your own assumption) and placing them in another guys world. It... just... doesn't... work, because there are different items and lore and magic.


You need a barrow blade or something like it to break his spell According to what is said in that single quote, no. That is just your interpretation. Is your view correct? Many people here seems to think so. I think you are taking Tolkiens words literally... too literally.


Actually in that tense, he means bitter as in "Painful, damaging" Are you sure? Because the WK seems to be the prideful kind of guy to be shamed at being shanked by a midget. The hobbits rule in that manner.


1) Actually Anduril is not made by the Valar, it was made by the greatest dwarf smith and reforged by Elrond
2) Tolkien makes no mention to it, and Aragon does not use his sword against the Nazgul at weather top. So no. 1) If I'm not mistaken, it was forged with the Valar's magic, or their light. It was downright epic, and even cut right through Saurons barrier (If he had one) like tissue and sliced off his finger. Now taking this, is it completely illogical that it can't cut through the Wk's barrier, though it be weaker than what Sauron had? The fact it was made by the greatest dwarven smith doesn't help your case any. Need I say more?
2) That has a giant and huge hole in it. It likely never came to mind for Tolkien, because he never had Aragorn fight the WK with the sword, nor any intention of it likely. Just because he never mentioned Anduril being able to kill the WK, doesn't mean it is not able to.


And i personally think the first Batman and Robin was an amazing film of untold coolness, but that isn't the point And I think it just plain sucked because they made Mr. Freeze into a cheesy villain, with horrible puns (Seriously, chill?), who also made his villains recite a christmas song as his theme (The fact that Batman had his own credit card with a bat on it doesn't help any).


In the full scale battle, the WK simply have the sheer numbers to wipe out the Blue Dragon army. And then can simply swarm Soth to death (might take a hundred guys, but hey) :smallconfused:Sorry, but this seems horribly wrong. With those dragons, WK's orcs are as good as toast (And as crispy as it too:smalltongue:) To say that the sheer numbers will wipe them out is utterly illogical. Archers I can accept, but does every orc in the army carry a bow? To my knowledge, no.


So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there Honestly... I can say that this display of ignorance and "Holier than thou art" attitude surprises even me. EE, drop the self-righteous attitude, you aren't helping your case any with such declarations and drama.


This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless. Yeah, I've developed that feeling in the course of many ME threads... But its part of his tactics. His main point in vs. Threads is to be stubborn and immovable until his opponents give up on him and leave, so he can claim a false victory, completely ignoring the truth of numbers which, in my oppinion, is what wins these threads. Its better to keep a cool head and try and put up a good debate, as it can actually win you your own victory. Don't back down and wait till someone else starts this up again, its better to settle it now. I see Soths chances much higher than the WKs, despite EE's claims otherwise, so I'm not backing down.

[Tyrant]

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

Doesn't this line of reasoning make any and all vs thread meaningless? I mean, using your own take, I could say Frostmourn can't harm anyone from ME because it is never seen doing so. Using your logic, we have no reason to assume any level of transparency between the worlds and can make numerous arguments for why it won't do anything. Some examples:
1) Humans from ME aren't the humans in WoW, and are therefore not to be taken to have the same limitations, vulnerabilities, etc
2) The magic that drives Frostmourn will only work on WoW creations because it was made by them to fight against them
And on and on it goes. Without assuming some level of crossover, what's the point as we could simply argue nonsense like this for pages on end? EE is stubborn and takes this farther than I would, but you're approach is insanity.




For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.

It would freeze. Using you're set up, it will freeze. The word "anything" can only be taken one way. It is a fairly all-inclusive statement. Does it make sense that it would, probably not but that's not the point. If you throw out the fact that anything is fairly absolute, then any argument you can come up with the TTGL being able to hurt the Freezy also goes right out the window.

[EvilElitest]

Tengan Toppa Gurren Laggan. It's a robot that's about as tall as... say, 12 galaxys? And can toss them around for fun. And can take a blast from something with the same energy out-put as the Big Bang.

But it says it can freeze anything. There is no reason (at least an you've provided) that will give him protection other than "Well he is powerful" Sure he is powerful, but that isn't the point. the point is that he has no protection.


And no, no it wouldn't. You have missed the entire point; ether through your ignorance or my poor wording. Or a mix of the two, doesn't matter.

It is not ignorance, it is fairness. We argue based upon abilities shown to be present, not ones we wished they had. Just because somebody has a niffty label saying they are powerful, and they might even be powerful, that does given them powers they have never processed. The giant robot guy doesn't have an specific protection from being frozen, so the made up "Mr. Freeze guy" will in fact win. You are manipulating the cannon simply to achieve an outcome that you find favorable, and that has no cannon basis. Just because a character is considered powerful, or you claim (often without backing) that they are powerful, doesn't give them special immunities or abilities they never possessed in their original canon. Giant robot guy might be extremely powerful. He could very well blow up an entire galaxy sure, but if he touched, unless he has some sort of special protection he will freeze. Now if the giant robot guy is cannonly stated to posses some sort of immunity to cold or freezing or what not (or something like sun powered heating mechanism) then you could make an argument that it wouldn't work. However you can't simply use this because "HE IS POWERFUL" that is simplistic and dishonest. That is achieving an outcome with not canonical basis


The quote of Mr. Freeze is only true in -that- work of fiction, and doesn't remain true in any other type. Why is this, even though the author so clearly stated that it would? Because he only said that -in regard to his story-.
That is an ignorant approach, because in that case, the Elder Evils in their book might drive people in sane, but it wouldn't work on somebody like Morgoth, an being too powerful for Lovecraft to imagine.

You see what i'm doing? I'm using the same logic without any basis. I'm simply stating that Morgoth is immune "Just because" due to the fact he is considered powerful. Or Sargarous as well. Never of these beings have any immunity to the insanity that elder evils bring about, however because i don't want them to lose, i'm simply saying right out that they are far to powerful to be effected. And by your logic that makes sense, because even through Lovecraft stated that Elder Evils will drive you insane if you make true contact with them, however i'm claiming they are immune because Lovecraft never imagined that his elder Evils would come into contact with the world's creators.
If you state that powers of certain creatures can't go beyond their place of orgine , then no vs. thread could ever possibly work because non of their powers will have the same effect

Rastilin can use magic fire. And yet Gollum has never come into contact with Dragonlance fire. It would work, because the Makers of rastalin would never imagine that he would fight a LOTRS character. If you take away cannon this just because a fan devotion to who ever is you favorite character and nothing more.


We assume powers work normally, as shown in their canonical work unless there is a reason for it to work otherwise. the elder evils insanity will work on Morgoth and Sarcarous, because there is no reason why ether would be immune. Rastalin will burn gollum because gollum has no immunity. the imaginary freeze dude will freeze giant robot man because robot guy has no given protection from being frozen



Here's another example. Azathoth touches Mt.Freeze. Does he get frozen? Of course not! He's freaking Azathoth! Azathoth wants to destroy the one-ring for -whatever- reason. Does he destroy it, even though Tolkin said it was impossible? Yes, he does. Why? Because when Tolkin says something like "It's impossible" It's only impossible in LoTR.


Except Azathoth has a given reason. He can destroy the one ring and resist freezing because he is an elder evil. he has the powers of an evil evil, which means he can break the rules. Love craft established taht elder evils can destroy anything, and break every other rule, and as of such he wins simply because of his immunity



In Tolkin-Verse, sure. But there nothing compared to the stuff from other fiction. Excaliber from Fate/Stay Night, Frostmourn from Warcraft 3, The Red-Ruby wand from DnD.

1) In terms of a better sword? frostmourn is more unwieldy than Narzil and Glamring, and it corrupts the owner. It has some cool tricks, but it isn't worth the hype
2) I fail to see the Fate/Stay night powers. It could hurt the WK, because, unless i forgot something, it is just a really good magic sword, no special powers
3) Ruby Wand is impressive sure, but that doesn't give it the powers needed to hurt the Wk


Semantics. Please, that's honestly rather sad. You know what I meant, Nit-Picking just shows how poor of a sport you are.
out right lies and unbacked claims of grander along with disregard for canonical powers is far more unsportsmanlike then devotion to the cannon.


No, if Tolkin knew about it he wouldn't have made an exception. Wanna know why? Because it doesn't effect his fiction. That's all he covered, his fiction. If he said some peasent with no powers could defeat anyone, then that would be true... in the Tolkin-Verse. But -only- in the Tolkin-Verse. Take him out of it, and it holds no power at all.


And that would hold true to Lovecrafts elder evils and their powers wouldn't it. You take away people's cannon powers to suit your own purposes and before you know it, nobody can fight each other any more


What you just said right makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Just because a weapon is considered "Epic" doesn't mean it has the suitable quality to fight a certain foe. The sword of Truth is Epic, it wouldn't have any effect on the WK because he has no illusions about his existence. Glamring is epic, Orcish is Epic, Narzil is epic, and yet they don't have the effect on the WK. You need a specific type of weapon to be able to break the WK's spell, or something that makes the spell null (like say, rastalin)


The character can do that thing in regards to the story he's in. Take a character from LoTR, give him a sheild that the author says will not break, and put him in a VS contest with Azathoth. Have Azathoth bitch-slap the dude with a tentical and the dude dies, and sheild breaks. Why? Diffrent fiction, diffrent levels of power that were never meant to mix. And as such, the absolute rules for one -don't work- in the other.

Absolute rules do work unless there is something to challenge the absolute. Azathoth is cannonlly established to be able to break the rules of any universe, as said by Lovecraft. Thus he can defeat the un breakable shield.
According to your logic, i can put him Azathoth Against Eru and Eru would win because i claim he has "Awsome power that Lovecraft would never dream of"


And established power -in the Tolkin-verse-. The absolute there means bunk in another world. Will it protect the WK from most weapons? Sure. From alot of magic weapons? Sure. But reach a certain level of power, and the absolute from one world means jack in another.

power level means nothing. Power level isn't a black and white Dragon ball styled number system, it varies. Some weapons are good for certain situations. Sword of Truth is great against some people. it could kill Seph. It couldn't hurt the WK. The master sword could, because it has a specific reason


Im asking for you to learn how to debate.


You asking me to cheat and twist rules under the pretense of debate. That isn't debate, that is breaking rules to suit your purpose. It is dishonest, and dishonorable. It is simply making rules up on whim to suit my purpose rather than use the actual material at hand. In real debates you use sources to verify answers, i do real debate, you don't make stuff up to suit your point. Your not asking me to debate, your asking me to cheat



This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless.
Yeah, because i'm not going to give up my integrity to suit your naive assumptions and out right lies. Call me a brick wall, i'd rather be stubborn than a cheater




Alright, as a statement, Frostmourne was forged by demons... Who are pretty much the main bane of all life and creation. This is the source of the chaos damage, which bypasses divine armor. DIVINE armor. Quit overlooking that detail, as it is important.
1) actually, do your research, Frostmourn origin is unknown. Check it on the wiki
2) Divine natrual armor, not protection granted by spells



1) The Weapon is in almost every meaning of the word godlike. You'd have a hell of a time looking for a weapon belonging to any mere mortal in Azeroth that even comes close to Frostmournes power. I can only name Atiesh and Ashbringer, both of which outpower any weapon in ME. Frostmourne is definitely stronger than the Twin Blades of Azzinoth belonging to Illidan, and we can go on this assumption because we see Arthas defeat Illidan (Whether or not the fight was supposed to be longer is of no consequence, he would have defeated him anyway). The fact it steals souls, upon wielding it or cutting someone and killing them with it, is further explanation of its epic power (And I think it would bypass the ring wraiths reincarnation cycle thing).
1) So? God like weapon does it have the requirements needed to hurt him. Actually it does, it can hurt incorporeal beings, so no argument there, but its god powers have nothing to do with that, only its specific enchantment
2) Illidin being defeated was a close fight, but that was more about Arthas' skil, Illidin didn't have a specific protection
3) The twin blades have super powers as well, they couldn't hurt The WK because they lack any anti undead magic (while Frostmourn has the ability to hurt those without substance)


2) Saying he never made the exception and knowing that he never knew it just doesn't mix. Heres what we know...
Yes it does, only weapons with a certain quality can hurt him. Frostmourn has that quality, which is that it can hurt incorporal creatures, but if it didn't have that abilty it couldn't do that

*
Frostmourne is from a high magic setting, not low or mid, high.
*Frostmourne is chaos in a word, it is capable of passing through divine armor. Divine in a high magic setting I believe would surpass the WK's shield with ease.
*LotRs is a mid-magic setting. Frostmourne is from high magic setting.
The above points could very well be used for several epic weapons.
1) magic level doens't matter, its actual abilities do
2) Actually Divine magic is natrual, while hte WK has a spell, so if Frostmourn can make magical protections (like the spell armor) usless then it could break the WK's spell (never mind because it can already hurt incoporal creatures anyways but that isn't the point
3) LOTRS and Warcrafts magic levels don't matter. It is the actual abilities present that matter




This said, Freezas death ball would not nuke him, Broileys super array of green energy blasts would not even scratch him... EE, what you are saying here... just totaled your credibility. Doesn't matter if they aren't specicially meant to destory undead... If it packs that much force, WK should be destroyed easily. DBZ is &^%*ing god like in every meaning of the word. Except it is all destruction... no creation.

Does he have an establish power that can destroy protection spells? If no, can't hurt him. Might blow everything else around to pieces or could burn him to death, but direct attacks, can't hurt him



I can see him dying against a guy with Frostmourne. Utterly.
Raistalin. Don't make me laugh, your losing all of your credibility. Rastalin is a god powered mage, with specific powers that can destory universes, no chance there


You need something like a Barrow Blade in the bloody Tolkien-Verse. You are taking the authors words (Or your own assumption) and placing them in another guys world. It... just... doesn't... work, because there are different items and lore and magic.
We are using their established powers. I mean, if Frostmourn is taking out of its setting, it still works like Frostmourn. Or are you saying that it wouldn't work against somebody from another setting simply because writers of warcraft didn't consider it.


According to what is said in that single quote, no. That is just your interpretation. Is your view correct? Many people here seems to think so. I think you are taking Tolkiens words literally... too literally.

Tolkiens word is all we have to go on. I have defended my view point and nobody responded


Are you sure? Because the WK seems to be the prideful kind of guy to be shamed at being shanked by a midget. The hobbits rule in that manner

It was refering to the sword, not the hobbit. Bitter means pain you realize


1) If I'm not mistaken, it was forged with the Valar's magic, or their light. It was downright epic, and even cut right through Saurons barrier (If he had one) like tissue and sliced off his finger. Now taking this, is it completely illogical that it can't cut through the Wk's barrier, though it be weaker than what Sauron had? The fact it was made by the greatest dwarven smith doesn't help your case any. Need I say more?
2) That has a giant and huge hole in it. It likely never came to mind for Tolkien, because he never had Aragorn fight the WK with the sword, nor any intention of it likely. Just because he never mentioned Anduril being able to kill the WK, doesn't mean it is not able to.

1) It wasn't actually, and it didn't slice his finger, Sauron didn't have a barrier (he lost his at the breaking of the world). The Wk is a different type of being than Sauron with a different type of shield
2) tolkien is infamous for including exceptions, and he said "no other blade" If he would have made an exception, he would have included




And I think it just plain sucked because they made Mr. Freeze into a cheesy villain, with horrible puns (Seriously, chill?), who also made his villains recite a christmas song as his theme (The fact that Batman had his own credit card with a bat on it doesn't help any).



exactly, options are worth nothing if not backed. I can claim it is the best movie in the world, but it means nothing if i don't back it up. I is the best movie in teh world however :smallwink:



Sorry, but this seems horribly wrong. With those dragons, WK's orcs are as good as toast (And as crispy as it too) To say that the sheer numbers will wipe them out is utterly illogical. Archers I can accept, but does every orc in the army carry a bow? To my knowledge, no.
They will do a lot, but they still lost battles in Dragon lance , and most orcs do carry bows (at least in every mention of them) Also they are mortal, IE the Wk's powers can effect. Fear, Black breath, morgul blades, despair, corruption, more fear, plague, ect ect ect. Also , orcs use poison arrows, and a lot use ether arrows, darts or throwing spears, don't forget siege weapons.




honestly... I can say that this display of ignorance and "Holier than thou art" attitude surprises even me. EE, drop the self-righteous attitude, you aren't helping your case any with such declarations and drama.
There is no ignorence in defending cannon and sticking to the works of orgin. Cheating is when you ignore the works to draw your own conclusions without any basis





Yeah, I've developed that feeling in the course of many ME threads... But its part of his tactics. His main point in vs. Threads is to be stubborn and immovable until his opponents give up on him and leave, so he can claim a false victory, completely ignoring the truth of numbers which, in my oppinion, is what wins these threads. Its better to keep a cool head and try and put up a good debate, as it can actually win you your own victory. Don't back down and wait till someone else starts this up again, its better to settle it now. I see Soths chances much higher than the WKs, despite EE's claims otherwise, so I'm not backing down.

oh so when i argue on your side its different? When i'm agreeing with you on something suddenly being stubborn isn't a problem is that it? Whe we are on the same side, you never complain. What is this? You want Soth to win yes, and i admit Soth has a point, but using cross over logic. Really. You can't make a protest for cool heads and good debate until you start using ether one of those assets yourself, Steven really, your being insulting and confusing points, don't do this. You are just as damned as i am, at least i have the honesty about my stubbornness

As is aid before, Soth is powerful. He has a chance. And i said his magic might be able to hurt the Wk. It is his sword i doubt. In a one on one, Soth is a better swordsmen, and he has magic. i don't know what magic can hurt teh Wk, i wish i had more concreit stats, but he can do something. In a war situation, it isn't really a compitition, a part from Dragons they don't have very much to offer.

tyrant, thanks for drawing the same conclusions, you are a voice of sainty
from
EE

[Matar]

Doesn't this line of reasoning make any and all vs thread meaningless? I mean, using your own take, I could say Frostmourn can't harm anyone from ME because it is never seen doing so. Using your logic, we have no reason to assume any level of transparency between the worlds and can make numerous arguments for why it won't do anything. Some examples:

1) Humans from ME aren't the humans in WoW, and are therefore not to be taken to have the same limitations, vulnerabilities, etc

2) The magic that drives Frostmourn will only work on WoW creations because it was made by them to fight against them
And on and on it goes. Without assuming some level of crossover, what's the point as we could simply argue nonsense like this for pages on end? EE is stubborn and takes this farther than I would, but you're approach is insanity.

Insanity? This is VS THREADS!

I'm not going point by point, im just going to keep it simple.

It -is-confusing. Why would expect? Your merging two universes with two diffrent sets of rules. These two universes were -never- meant to be merged, the author didn't even think about it when writing it out.

An absolute means nothing when combining two worlds, it's that simple. When there is an absolute in one universe you have to understand that it won't be an absolute in another one. Is it confusing? Yes. That's why people have to work to find some common ground that they can all agree on for that debate.

If two partys are taking to absolutly diffrent stances, then they need to -both- find some middle ground to work with. However, some people are painfully stuburn and refuse to do this.


It would freeze. Using you're set up, it will freeze. The word "anything" can only be taken one way. It is a fairly all-inclusive statement. Does it make sense that it would, probably not but that's not the point. If you throw out the fact that anything is fairly absolute, then any argument you can come up with the TTGL being able to hurt the Freezy also goes right out the window.

I already covered this, but might as well restate it. Mr. Freeze was made in a Universe without Galaxy-spaning large robots that can take the full force of the big-bang and -live- without a scratch. His absolute is not absolute anymore.

[chiasaur11]

Insanity? This is VS THREADS!

I'm not going point by point, im just going to keep it simple.

It -is-confusing. Why would expect? Your merging two universes with two diffrent sets of rules. These two universes were -never- meant to be merged, the author didn't even think about it when writing it out.

An absolute means nothing when combining two worlds, it's that simple. When there is an absolute in one universe you have to understand that it won't be an absolute in another one. Is it confusing? Yes. That's why people have to work to find some common ground that they can all agree on for that debate.

If two partys are taking to absolutly diffrent stances, then they need to -both- find some middle ground to work with. However, some people are painfully stuburn and refuse to do this.



I already covered this, but might as well restate it. Mr. Freeze was made in a Universe without Galaxy-spaning large robots that can take the full force of the big-bang and -live- without a scratch. His absolute is not absolute anymore.

The real issue is how freaking Hot Blooded the TTGL crew is. Mr. Freezie is going to melt somewhere around the word "Drill".

[Mr. Scaly]

See? This is exactly why WK threads tick me off so much. Everyone starts arguing about that stupid enchantment, repeating themselves, misunderstanding what everyone else says, and the whole thread gets side tracked.



Anyway...here's the thing. Soth killed Caradoc. Caradoc was an undead skeletal knight who used to serve Soth but betrayed him and fled to Ravenloft. I don't have the book admittedly, but what else would he do after catching up to him, which he did?

And Caradoc was no pushover either. He and twelve other skeletal knights singlehandedly wiped out the Solamnic Knights that fought at Palanthas. He was bound to serve Soth out of loyalty too, not because he held the key to his immortality or something like that.

So...if Soth can kill undead like that without any special anti-undead weapons...dot dot dot...



Okay, the army battle hasn't been properly argued yet. First...how many soldiers does the WK have? And I mean 'the WK', not 'Mordor.' He's a general but he doesn't control every orc, Haradrim, troll and Easterling to ever set foot in Mordor. Hence my earlier proposal, I.E. he having the army at Pelennor...

[Steven the Lich]

Insanity? This is VS THREADS! Seconded. You should sig that you know.


1) actually, do your research, Frostmourn origin is unknown. Check it on the wiki
2) Divine natrual armor, not protection granted by spells 1) Oh yeah, so it is. But demons forging it is a credible assumption, knowing it does chaotic damage.
2)Ummm... Whats the point? It is still divine armor, which in Warcraft terms, it would be fair to assume that such magic would be beyond or equal at least to the WK's protection. Besides, chaos damage also bypasses invulnerability, which is the ultimate spell. :smalltongue:


1) So? God like weapon does it have the requirements needed to hurt him. Actually it does, it can hurt incorporeal beings, so no argument there, but its god powers have nothing to do with that, only its specific enchantment
2) Illidin being defeated was a close fight, but that was more about Arthas' skil, Illidin didn't have a specific protection
3) The twin blades have super powers as well, they couldn't hurt The WK because they lack any anti undead magic (while Frostmourn has the ability to hurt those without substance) 1) Alright, so it does. However, that is not a requirement. We saw Eowyn stab the WK in the face with a normal sword, did we not? Even if the shield was disabled then, would the incorporael trait of the WK not counter this? Apparently not.
2) Yeah, I realize that now. But Frostmourne had part in it and dealt a powerful blow.
3) No, I believe they could hurt the WK because of their chaotic nature. They belonged to a demon named Azzinoth, and demons are, as I mentioned, the enemy of life and creation, the essence of choas and destruction.


Yes it does, only weapons with a certain quality can hurt him. Frostmourn has that quality, which is that it can hurt incorporal creatures, but if it didn't have that abilty it couldn't do that No, not really. That is just taking the authors words and applying them literally in another, more powerful, world. We have strong reason to presume that an epic item from a high magic setting would be more than enough to bypass the WK's barrier, regardless of magic type or abilities.


1) magic level doens't matter, its actual abilities do
2) Actually Divine magic is natrual, while hte WK has a spell, so if Frostmourn can make magical protections (like the spell armor) usless then it could break the WK's spell (never mind because it can already hurt incoporal creatures anyways but that isn't the point
3) LOTRS and Warcrafts magic levels don't matter. It is the actual abilities present that matter 1) Abilities do count, but we cannot simply toss away magic level, as it is something to consider.
2) At the very least, it should bypass the spell.
3) As i said in 1.


Does he have an establish power that can destroy protection spells? If no, can't hurt him. Might blow everything else around to pieces or could burn him to death, but direct attacks, can't hurt him Magic smagic, its a pure energy attack capable of destroying planets, I think shattering a magic shield is not out of the question.


Raistalin. Don't make me laugh, your losing all of your credibility. Rastalin is a god powered mage, with specific powers that can destory universes, no chance there Hold it there. You never said anything about in in the piece of your posts I was responding to. Raistalin... I don't doubt he could cremate the WK, along with countless others. He is not the only one who can do it, however. I was simply saying that someone with Frostmourne could defeat the WK, just as you said someone with Ashbringer could kill him. Frostmourne is of origins unknown, while Ashbringer is man made, so it is fair to assume Frostbringer stronger (Though Ashbringer is the weapon of choice against undead). I said I could see someone defeat the WK utterly with Frostmourne, granted not some random hobo, but a well trained knight or something could do it.


We are using their established powers. I mean, if Frostmourn is taking out of its setting, it still works like Frostmourn. Or are you saying that it wouldn't work against somebody from another setting simply because writers of warcraft didn't consider it. What I am saying is you are taking Tolkiens words into another world and saying no weapon from that world, save holy ones, can damage the WK. This simply cannot be done, because it could be a world of greater magic, with stronger weapons than ME, with god-like enchants. Are you catching my point?


It was refering to the sword, not the hobbit. Bitter means pain you realize

1. having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
2. producing one of the four basic taste sensations; not sour, sweet, or salt.
3. hard to bear; grievous; distressful: a bitter sorrow.
4. causing pain; piercing; stinging: a bitter chill.
5. characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.
6. hard to admit or accept: a bitter lesson.
7. resentful or cynical: bitter words. Not just pain. It involves distastefulness, taste sensations, hard to bear (Which could be the one in use in the sentence), intense hostility, something hard to accept, or resentful. Now, 1 and 2 and 6 may be out of the question, the remaining though are plausible.


1) It wasn't actually, and it didn't slice his finger, Sauron didn't have a barrier (he lost his at the breaking of the world). The Wk is a different type of being than Sauron with a different type of shield
2) tolkien is infamous for including exceptions, and he said "no other blade" If he would have made an exception, he would have included 1) Wait... what? I thought a shard of it was used by Isildur to cut off the ring-finger. Seriously, I was under the assumption that Sauron spreaded to the four winds because his ring was separated from him. And I'm pretty darn sure there was something about the flame of the Valar being involved with it, as a powerful enchantment or something. And apoligies, I didn't know he was without his barrier during that battle (Though it does bring a question to mind... why did Sauron go out on a battlefield when there was a chance he would be wounded or something?).
2) But he had absolutely no knowledge about literature today. His exceptions would have only been in Middle Earth anyway, and is one of the only places it is viable. I am making a fantasy world myself, and I believe some of the weapons I have in it are capable of harming the WK, if they were ever used against him. Tolkien made no exception for them, however. He can't make a exception. Is my word meaningless?


They will do a lot, but they still lost battles in Dragon lance , and most orcs do carry bows (at least in every mention of them) Also they are mortal, IE the Wk's powers can effect. Fear, Black breath, morgul blades, despair, corruption, more fear, plague, ect ect ect. Also , orcs use poison arrows, and a lot use ether arrows, darts or throwing spears, don't forget siege weapons. I don't doubt that. But dragons are a huge advantage. As for the WK's abilities against them... don't dragons have a strong magic resistance? Or is Dragon Lance an exception?


There is no ignorence in defending cannon and sticking to the works of orgin. Cheating is when you ignore the works to draw your own conclusions without any basis But there is ignorance in blindly following it to the degree of refusing the effectiveness of foreign powers, for good example Frostmourne's chaotic divine penetrating powers not being able to overcome the WK's blade because cannon states no other blade but one can penetrate it (If frostmourne was not to have this wraith harming ability).


oh so when i argue on your side its different? When i'm agreeing with you on something suddenly being stubborn isn't a problem is that it? Whe we are on the same side, you never complain. What is this? You want Soth to win yes, and i admit Soth has a point, but using cross over logic. Really. You can't make a protest for cool heads and good debate until you start using ether one of those assets yourself, Steven really, your being insulting and confusing points, don't do this. You are just as damned as i am, at least i have the honesty about my stubbornness Woah, chill man. I honestly don't take as much notice when your on my side, since my main focus is to convince my opponents my views and score the win.
I think you are misinterpretting his point altogether and stretching it to make it seem unbelievable. I agree with him on the Mr. Freeze vs. the giant robot, because the giant robot has altogether more strength and resistance. He may have no specific protection, but he did survive an energy out-put matching the big bang, so I strongly believe that counts for something. There is no specific protection, because the authors hardly ever compare worlds, but that doesn't mean the abilities automatically suceed, because there may be other factors chipping in, which is very well the case.
How am I being insulting? I am just saying that its your favorite tactic, being stubborn enough to make the other side go away, and you stated this yourself back in the LK vs. Sauron thread. I wasn't even directing this at you, or anywhere near you. But sorry if you viewed it that way, as it wasn't my intention.
How am I confusing my points? What I said seems pretty clear to me.
I know I'm stubborn. I'm not denying it. Heck, its one of the things that kept the LK vs. Sauron thread going. Its a gift and a curse in itself. I however would like to state I don't solely rely on my stuborness to win an argument. I just like to be persistent.:smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

I'm not going point by point, im just going to keep it simple.

It -is-confusing. Why would expect? Your merging two universes with two diffrent sets of rules. These two universes were -never- meant to be merged, the author didn't even think about it when writing it out.

So we take the established powers and use them as they are logically suppose to work. Any power works unless there is a reason for it not to



An absolute means nothing when combining two worlds, it's that simple. When there is an absolute in one universe you have to understand that it won't be an absolute in another one. Is it confusing? Yes. That's why people have to work to find some common ground that they can all agree on for that debate.
Common ground. As in you deciding what works and what doesn't? As in you in particular dictating who can hurt whom and what works on what. That isn't common ground, that is one person saying 'yes, this will work, and this won't work, because i say so". There isn't any logic, there isn't any reason, it is just manipulation.


If two partys are taking to absolutly diffrent stances, then they need to -both- find some middle ground to work with. However, some people are painfully stuburn and refuse to do this.
This isn't finding middle ground, this you saying certain powers don't work and certain powers do without any logical reasoning other than "nuh nuh nuh, i say so". I'm stubborn yes, but at least i'm using the canonical information



I already covered this, but might as well restate it. Mr. Freeze was made in a Universe without Galaxy-spaning large robots that can take the full force of the big-bang and -live- without a scratch. His absolute is not absolute anymore.
Because you say so right? Does the giant robot have any protection against the absolute 100% freeze attack? No? Well then Freeze man's attack works. Your evading the point, and clumsily at that.





See? This is exactly why WK threads tick me off so much. Everyone starts arguing about that stupid enchantment, repeating themselves, misunderstanding what everyone else says, and the whole thread gets side tracked.

We need to make a little notice for OPs

here is how it works

Prophecy, man female thing, don't touch it. Ever

WK's protection. He can be effected by direct magic as per normal

Weapons- only a weapon with some sort of power to hurt undead or incorporeal beings can break his spell. After you break the spell you can just kill him as per normal. But your weapon, both the one you break his spell with and the one you kill him with will fall apart and you will get the Black Breath at full power




Anyway...here's the thing. Soth killed Caradoc. Caradoc was an undead skeletal knight who used to serve Soth but betrayed him and fled to Ravenloft. I don't have the book admittedly, but what else would he do after catching up to him, which he did?
Found it

"Attacks with mundane weapons [Soth's sword] had no effect upon the Ghosts non corporeal form, but...."
That being said, He breaks Carradoc's neck with his fist, so....touche


And Caradoc was no pushover either. He and twelve other skeletal knights singlehandedly wiped out the Solamnic Knights that fought at Palanthas. He was bound to serve Soth out of loyalty too, not because he held the key to his immortality or something like that.
Caradoc wasn't one of hte knights, those guys were different. he was another being. And yes, he actually is described as a push over several time, Stahq says he is utterly useless

So...if Soth can kill undead like that without any special anti-undead weapons...dot dot dot...

His fists apparently work, beat him to death? Through carradoc's protection isn't quite the Wk's protection


Okay, the army battle hasn't been properly argued yet. First...how many soldiers does the WK have? And I mean 'the WK', not 'Mordor.' He's a general but he doesn't control every orc, Haradrim, troll and Easterling to ever set foot in Mordor. Hence my earlier proposal, I.E. he having the army at Pelennor...

Well he has his massive army at Pelennor, his force at Angmar, and um, didn't he command some other army? I don't recall honestly, so that is two armies



Seconded. You should sig that you know.

heh, steven, that jokes has been done. I should know, i started teh whole vs. thread madness joke (page 49 of link vs. seph, where we didn't even argue and just wanted to get at page 50, we simply used that joke, THIS IS ZELDA......THIS IS THE PLAYGROUND)



1) Oh yeah, so it is. But demons forging it is a credible assumption, knowing it does chaotic damage.
2)Ummm... Whats the point? It is still divine armor, which in Warcraft terms, it would be fair to assume that such magic would be beyond or equal at least to the WK's protection. Besides, chaos damage also bypasses invulnerability, which is the ultimate spell.


1) here is the lore



Origin

Tichondrius claimed that the Lich King forged the sword; this is unlikely, as Ner'zhul probably did not possess the power to craft items from within the Frozen Throne. It is more plausible that it was forged by someone in the Legion, and Kil'jaeden included it in the prison for reasons unknown. If this were the case, however, then it is very odd that Kil'jaeden would give Ner'zhul the means by which to escape. For now, Frostmourne's exact origins remain a mystery, though sources suggest that it was forged by the Legion and not Ner'zhul:

"Frostmourne is an artifact of great evil and tremendous might, forged by demons to hold the Lich King's powers. Ner'zhul thrust the blade out of the Frozen Throne and masterminded it finding its way into Arthas' hands. Desperate for any power that might defeat the Scourge, the arrogant prince Arthas took possession of the runeblade and in doing so sealed his doom as Ner'zhul had planned." MoM 174

The story section of the official Wrath of the Lich King site also states that Frostmourne predates Ner'zhul:

World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King "Ner'zhul's spirit was magically shackled to a suit of ancient armor and bound to the mighty runeblade Frostmourne. To ensure Ner'zhul's obedience, Kil'jaeden sealed the armor and blade within a specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether."}

2) actually there is a subtle difference. Divine armor is natural, like devils damage reduction in D&D. The WK's protection is clearly a spell, like a buff. you know the armor spells in Wow? does it by pass those. If you so, you win. True, Frostmourn works anyways because of the incorporal thing, but hey


1) Alright, so it does. However, that is not a requirement. We saw Eowyn stab the WK in the face with a normal sword, did we not? Even if the shield was disabled then, would the incorporael trait of the WK not counter this? Apparently not.
2) Yeah, I realize that now. But Frostmourne had part in it and dealt a powerful blow.
3) No, I believe they could hurt the WK because of their chaotic nature. They belonged to a demon named Azzinoth, and demons are, as I mentioned, the enemy of life and creation, the essence of choas and destruction.

1) Because the spell had already been broken. once the spell is broken, then you can hit him in the face with a pointy stick and he dies
2) True, but that has to do with its innate awesomeness more than specific powers (nobody is denying it is a very advantageous weapon to have)
3) We have their stats, they don't do chaos damage.



No, not really. That is just taking the authors words and applying them literally in another, more powerful, world. We have strong reason to presume that an epic item from a high magic setting would be more than enough to bypass the WK's barrier, regardless of magic type or abilities.
The only strong reason you have is that you say so. We don't go by what we want, otherwise Blackadder would be the vs. thread champion, we go by the actual powers. Just people a weapon comes from a more powerful (IE flashy) setting does give it the special qualities


1) Abilities do count, but we cannot simply toss away magic level, as it is something to consider.
2) At the very least, it should bypass the spell.
3) As i said in 1.

1&3) It doesn't matter how much "power level" a weapon possessing, if it still needs the specific qualities
2) Can it over come buff protection granted by spells? Really, i have no idea. If so, then i can fully understand the spell being broken.


Magic smagic, its a pure energy attack capable of destroying planets, I think shattering a magic shield is not out of the question.

magic is a different sort of entity. If this power can destroy magic, then....yeah it could work. But if it can't destory magic, the Wk is not dead, he is just a wraith........IN SPACE

Now that would be awesome


Hold it there. You never said anything about in in the piece of your posts I was responding to. Raistalin... I don't doubt he could cremate the WK, along with countless others. He is not the only one who can do it, however. I was simply saying that someone with Frostmourne could defeat the WK, just as you said someone with Ashbringer could kill him. Frostmourne is of origins unknown, while Ashbringer is man made, so it is fair to assume Frostbringer stronger (Though Ashbringer is the weapon of choice against undead). I said I could see someone defeat the WK utterly with Frostmourne, granted not some random hobo, but a well trained knight or something could do it.

1) Ok then, Raistalin could destory both Soth, the Wk and the LK.
2) Frostmourn and ashbringing can hurt them, both because of their specific enchantments (IE, anti undead, anti ghost) not their orgin



What I am saying is you are taking Tolkiens words into another world and saying no weapon from that world, save holy ones, can damage the WK. This simply cannot be done, because it could be a world of greater magic, with stronger weapons than ME, with god-like enchants. Are you catching my point?

Except the WK's shield is clearly not an issue about "power level" because in his own world there are more powerful weapons that couldn't have done the job. The only reason why the barrow blade works is because of its good anti undead powers, not its power




Not just pain. It involves distastefulness, taste sensations, hard to bear (Which could be the one in use in the sentence), intense hostility, something hard to accept, or resentful. Now, 1 and 2 and 6 may be out of the question, the remaining though are plausible.


Look at the context through, it is clearly 4, because the sword is only thing that could have made such a bitter wound, not the hobbit (which would be really odd "no other man, other than short fat person could slay him")



1) Wait... what? I thought a shard of it was used by Isildur to cut off the ring-finger. Seriously, I was under the assumption that Sauron spreaded to the four winds because his ring was separated from him. And I'm pretty darn sure there was something about the flame of the Valar being involved with it, as a powerful enchantment or something. And apoligies, I didn't know he was without his barrier during that battle (Though it does bring a question to mind... why did Sauron go out on a battlefield when there was a chance he would be wounded or something?).
2) But he had absolutely no knowledge about literature today. His exceptions would have only been in Middle Earth anyway, and is one of the only places it is viable. I am making a fantasy world myself, and I believe some of the weapons I have in it are capable of harming the WK, if they were ever used against him. Tolkien made no exception for them, however. He can't make a exception. Is my word meaningless?
1a) Nah, that was only in the movie. In the book, there is a massive six on one fight, he drives back Elrond, Cirden, and Glorfindal, Burns Gil-ad to death, inflicts some sort of burn wound on isildur, kills Elendil, sword breaks, Isildur shank him, cuts the ring from his dead finger. I know, the movie messing people up, no big deal
1b) the four winds thing happen the second time he lost the ring, when it was destroyed. At that time, he still had a body, (his orginial being lost in the breaking of the world) and he simple forged a new one. When it broke, his spirit fled. He reformed in the Third age, and when the ring was destoryed, the power holding him together fell apart and his spirit was scattered
1C) Maybe your thinking of what destroyed him originally?
1d) Thanks for the apology, nice of you
1E) i think at that point he wanted to get rid of the enemy command in one quick attack, as he was losing the war. But yeah, he was exposed
2) Tolkien didn't make exceptions for any of his more powerful weapons, thus proving that it wasn't the "power level" of the sword that let merry kill him, it was its specific qualities


I don't doubt that. But dragons are a huge advantage. As for the WK's abilities against them... don't dragons have a strong magic resistance? Or is Dragon Lance an exception?
Hmmmm, you know, i need to check. I know they don't have any resistence to poison or morgul blades, and i need to check the Dragon lance thing again (but really, that book is on the verge of death) Yes dragons are a huge advantage, but the are pretty much Soths only unit advantage



But there is ignorance in blindly following it to the degree of refusing the effectiveness of foreign powers, for good example Frostmourne's chaotic divine penetrating powers not being able to overcome the WK's blade because cannon states no other blade but one can penetrate it (If frostmourne was not to have this wraith harming ability).

No that is perfectly ok, that is simply saying "well, ok, the WK's shield needs a specific quality to be destroyed, hmmmmm, does Frostmourn have this"

That is simply using the rules as stated and trying to reach a conclusion, which is a wonderful thing to do, np there. What is wrong is saying "This weapon will work, because it can" sort of thing



Woah, chill man. I honestly don't take as much notice when your on my side, since my main focus is to convince my opponents my views and score the win.
alright, fair enough. Mostly i'm mad at him, as i hate underhanded plans



I think you are misinterpretting his point altogether and stretching it to make it seem unbelievable. I agree with him on the Mr. Freeze vs. the giant robot, because the giant robot has altogether more strength and resistance. He may have no specific protection, but he did survive an energy out-put matching the big bang, so I strongly believe that counts for something. There is no specific protection, because the authors hardly ever compare worlds, but that doesn't mean the abilities automatically suceed, because there may be other factors chipping in, which is very well the case.

Taking energy from teh big bang is cool yes, but the Freeze guys powers are absolute. Unless there is a reason for him to resist, his anti giant energy blast powers aren't relevant, just his anti freeze powers.

what i don't like about Malar's point is summed up by Tyrant, who is a genius quite nicely


How am I being insulting? I am just saying that its your favorite tactic, being stubborn enough to make the other side go away, and you stated this yourself back in the LK vs. Sauron thread. I wasn't even directing this at you, or anywhere near you. But sorry if you viewed it that way, as it wasn't my intention.
Sorry, i thought you were going along with him, who is actually being insulting.


How am I confusing my points? What I said seems pretty clear to me.
I know I'm stubborn. I'm not denying it. Heck, its one of the things that kept the LK vs. Sauron thread going. Its a gift and a curse in itself. I however would like to state I don't solely rely on my stuborness to win an argument. I just like to be persistent.


1) nevermind, it isn't worth going into now
2) Ah alright, he meant it as an insult, i thought you were agreeing with it in that connotation fair enough:smallbiggrin:
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

We need to make a little notice for OPs

here is how it works

Prophecy, man female thing, don't touch it. Ever

WK's protection. He can be effected by direct magic as per normal

Weapons- only a weapon with some sort of power to hurt undead or incorporeal beings can break his spell. After you break the spell you can just kill him as per normal. But your weapon, both the one you break his spell with and the one you kill him with will fall apart and you will get the Black Breath at full power

Which begs the question that can one beat him without any weapon at all? You know, like, say, a high level monk's fist which counts for being magical, lawful, etc.

And a question for all. Can someone dispel the WK's magic protections, or suppress them for a while?


Found it

"Attacks with mundane weapons [Soth's sword] had no effect upon the Ghosts non corporeal form, but...."
That being said, He breaks Carradoc's neck with his fist, so....touche


His fists apparently work, beat him to death? Through carradoc's protection isn't quite the Wk's protection

Hehe. That cheered me right up. I needed that image.


Caradoc wasn't one of hte knights, those guys were different. he was another being. And yes, he actually is described as a push over several time, Stahq says he is utterly useless

According to the Dragonlance Nexus:


Caradoc (? - Frostkolt, 1 PC) was a former Knight of Solamnia that died during the Cataclysm in a fire at Dargaard Keep, becoming an undead skeletal warrior. He was the first to join up under Loren Soth and was Lord Soth's most loyal and trusted of all his knights. He also served as his steward.

He first served as a Knight of the Crown until Fierswelt, 4 PC, when he was promoted to the rank of Knight of the Sword.

He was a warrior who rode with Lord Soth to assist in stopping the Kingpriest of Istar from causing the Cataclysm. When in route, he watched as Lord Soth fell victim to Takhisis's Silvanesti Elf minions as they talked poison into his lord's ear. Lord Soth returned to Dargaard Keep in a rage and with his return, the Cataclysm struck Krynn. Caradoc, Wersten Kern, and Colm Farold, that had followed Lord Soth, were killed in the fire of the Cataclysm. Caradoc accually voluntarily walked into the fire at Dargaard Keep, killing himself.

As a skeletal warrior, he followed the death knight Lord Soth on the attack on Palanthas during the Blue Lady's War.

So at the very least he was as skilled as your standard Knight of the Sword.


Well he has his massive army at Pelennor, his force at Angmar, and um, didn't he command some other army? I don't recall honestly, so that is two armies

Huh...so say a hundred thousand or so, more or less? 10,000 Uruk Hai outnumbered the entire Rohan army and Mordor and Angmar outnumber Isengard so it can't very well be less than that.

It should be noted though that when Kitiara attacked Palanthas she only used a part of her army, the thousand or so that would fit into the Flying Citadel. Speed was her objective, not conquest. When she was beaten there the rest of her forces scattered.

At it's strongest...I would have to say that the Blue Wing was at it's height from 353 to 357 PC after it had absorbed the remnants of the Green Wing. There were at least 42 blue dragons plus an unknown number of blacks...hundreds of ogres (maybe some hill giants) as heavy shock troops...many thousands of draconians, goblins, human mercenaries...Soth and his undead servants of course, which weren't many but probably the deadliest forces in the army...

It really ticks me off that I can't find exact numbers though. I think anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 is the most likely, since the Sanction Reserve Army during the war had 10,000 men but this was only a reserve force. That's a really wide margin but it's the best I can figure for numbers.




magic is a different sort of entity. If this power can destroy magic, then....yeah it could work. But if it can't destory magic, the Wk is not dead, he is just a wraith........IN SPACE

Now that would be awesome

Another amusing image to brighten my day. :smallbiggrin:

Though it occurs to me that there have been wizards on DBZ. If i recall correctly Piccolo literally blasted clear through Babidi's magical shield.


Hmmmm, you know, i need to check. I know they don't have any resistence to poison or morgul blades, and i need to check the Dragon lance thing again (but really, that book is on the verge of death) Yes dragons are a huge advantage, but the are pretty much Soths only unit advantage

Raistlin once said that only the strongest of magics could hurt a dragon. Just throwing that out there. Of course Soth also once said that Raistlin was the only mortal who could destroy him.

[EvilElitest]

Which begs the question that can one beat him without any weapon at all? You know, like, say, a high level monk's fist which counts for being magical, lawful, etc.

Personally, i don't think you could beat him to death, but he does have a ghostly body so......yeah? But you'd die of the Black Breath (not Soth through)


And a question for all. Can someone dispel the WK's magic protections, or suppress them for a while?

It is a spell, so yes, but it would most likely need to be something nasty


Hehe. That cheered me right up. I needed that image.
Good old fashion fisticuffs




According to the Dragonlance Nexus:



So at the very least he was as skilled as your standard Knight of the Sword.
no, i'm sorry, that source is wrong

"Carradoc had been caught up in the curese taht had doomed Soth to unlife. IN life, the seneschal had been a grasping, ambitious man, who had helped his master's career in any way necessary. He has dpread scandalous rumors about any rival who challenged Soth's position in the knightly society. When the Knights Council had questioned his master's claims to good deeds, he bore false witness to uphold Soth's version. He had even murdered for Soth, taking a dagger to his first wife while she slept. Even as teh fire struck Dargaard, Caradoc had been forging financial records in Soth's private study. It was there his bones still rested."

"Part of Carradoc's curse, and that of most ghosts, was that his wraithlike body allowed him little contact with the phyisical world, to meve even the smallest pieces of stone would have required intense concentration."

"The death knight struck Carradoc. No mortal could have done the same, for the ghost's noncorporal form protected him from physical attacks. To Soth, another undead creature, Carradoc was as solid as the skeleton that lay preserved in the room."



Huh...so say a hundred thousand or so, more or less? 10,000 Uruk Hai outnumbered the entire Rohan army and Mordor and Angmar outnumber Isengard so it can't very well be less than that.
Correct. Well at Pelanor fields, he had over a hundred thousand, more if you count the black ship, and Angmar is bigger, 500,000?


It should be noted though that when Kitiara attacked Palanthas she only used a part of her army, the thousand or so that would fit into the Flying Citadel. Speed was her objective, not conquest. When she was beaten there the rest of her forces scattered.

Hmm, how large was it


At it's strongest...I would have to say that the Blue Wing was at it's height from 353 to 357 PC after it had absorbed the remnants of the Green Wing. There were at least 42 blue dragons plus an unknown number of blacks...hundreds of ogres (maybe some hill giants) as heavy shock troops...many thousands of draconians, goblins, human mercenaries...Soth and his undead servants of course, which weren't many but probably the deadliest forces in the army...
Soth only has his banshees, his knights, and some hundreds mindless undead, with his ghost
Why would she have blacks? Do you mean greens?


It really ticks me off that I can't find exact numbers though. I think anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 is the most likely, since the Sanction Reserve Army during the war had 10,000 men but this was only a reserve force. That's a really wide margin but it's the best I can figure for numbers.

yeah i can imagine. It seems really annoying




Another amusing image to brighten my day. :smallbiggrin:
See, my good deeds for the day. Nazgul in space.


Though it occurs to me that there have been wizards on DBZ. If i recall correctly Piccolo literally blasted clear through Babidi's magical shield.

Hm, if that is the case he could hurt the Wk



Raistlin once said that only the strongest of magics could hurt a dragon. Just throwing that out there. Of course Soth also once said that Raistlin was the only mortal who could destroy him.
We have the stats, so i think he was exaggerating , he is known to be melodramatic

from
EE

[Bago!!!]

I'll take it step by step in no specific order

DIVINE ARMOR!
Alright, so its supposedly 'natural' armor. Spell or no, the sheer power that it takes for an artifact to even bypass and penetrate a deity from a high magic setting is incredible. The only other beings capable of hurting deities are other deities and Grom when he was possessed. I agree with steven the Lich that divine armor, natural or otherwise, is still beyond the capabilities of the WK to match in magic alone. Are you saying that the WK is as powerful as a deity? I for one think that the WK hardly counts as any sort of deity.

POWER!
Alright, can I just say ont he subject of power itself, no matter what kind of protection you usually have, it can be over come by brute force most of the time or by superoir sources of power. Otherise, spell resistance wouldn't work, flamestrike wouldn't penetrate fire immunity (It does, just like abyssal flames bypasses such things because its part DIVINE, look it up if you don't believe me).

DISPEL!
Dispel magic specifically statest that it suppresses magic, so it stands to reason that this would work against the WK's shield, suppressing it to make way for the sword to plunge in his chest or head or fist. :smallbiggrin:

CANNON! (Canon sir!) No, Cannon. BOOM!
To be fair, this and every other vs. thread is noncannon because you would never see the WK fight against lord soth or Link fight Sepheroth or LK fight Sauron. So we can try to draw upon cannon as much as we can, but we must come up with our own assumptions in this tangled web of the IMPOSSIBLE, for there is no way Soth would be facing off against WK, or that the LOTR world or any of its character would meet with Dragonlance's. Anyone care to argue this point against me?

ARMY!
Army wise, dragons hold a great advantage, undead hold a gread advantage (damage reduction and no critical hits) for the hold no fear, and the power that every dragon possess as a creature made of magic is just plain awesome. Every dragon can cast its fair share of spells and can breath a cone of cold, can move faster than most ground units, can't be harmed to much, can send foes running away crying to their mommies and can sustain a great deal of damage. They have quality where the WK has quantity. I say that quality is better than quantity. Its like the Machine gun in WWI against the constant wave of troops on either side. Each dragon is like said machine gun in comparison to the orcs. Does that make any sense? Poisen against dragons? Their bodies would fight it off without any problem. And they are basically immune to fear, and some dragons are immune to cold. And their own magical protections should be enough against the black breath and such. Seige weapons for the WK? Dodge em and take em out. Not too hard, and it takes ALOT of effort to aim a catapult or trebuchet. Try aiming at a flying target, it isn't easy.

FROSTMOURNE & MAGICAL WEAPONS!
Unwieldy? I would say otherwise considering how arthas uses the weapon. Even if he is immensly skilled, the weapon seems to be about right for a greatsword and he still uses it with awesome skill, enough to over come Illidian, who was over 10,000 years of experiance under his belt, was wielding two weapons that he used with great finesse, was strong, and his current strength powered by incredibly powerful demons. Plus, its made by demons, which are not panzies. The sword can do things that are just plain impressive and would otherise be impossible, so I think it is worth the hype. I sincerely believe that mundane weapons can be destroyed by the WK's barrier, but magical weapons, depending on their power, can overcome them, for if I recall, the WK was only hit by only ONE magic weapon. Therefore, we cannot assume that all weapons are unable to penetrate the WK's shield.

EPIC!
I strongly believe that a weapon that is epic (and there is a point where an item does get to that point in power) can pull off alot of things. Course, specifically made epic weapons against specific enemies certainly are powerful (Ashbringer being the most notable that comes to mind). And how would we know if Glamdring or any of those other weapons would have no effect? I see no reason why the wouldn't.

ABSOLUTE RULES!
They are BS outside of their word for all I care. To say that the WK's shield is just plain unbreakble is purely hackneyed and overdone. I am fed up with this constantly coming up.

DEBATE!
No comment.

INTEGRITY!
I believe there is no quote that says anyone is asking anyone to give up their integrity, and I dare someone to say otherwise.

MAGICAL LEVEL!
Magical level does matter. Otherwise an Arch-mage could lose to your random grunt. The abilities of people in other settings are powered by their respective magic. Magic setting and power level is very important because it dictates what can be done and what can't be done.

DBZ!
Anything in DBZ wins the cake because they pull of the impossible every season, such as destroying the planet. If you do a Frieza vs. Sauron, Frieza wins because he can simply fly up and blow up the planet. If it can destroy the planet, then it probally can destroy a shield, since a river managed to bypass the WK's shield.

Tolkien's WORD!
Wait, so are we going by everything that Tolkien says? Because I've thought that some of what he said could not be used in some discussions. Which is it? We take is word or we don't? If you take one thing literal, you have to take EVERYTHING literal, and I HATE that.

EXCEPTIONS!
If Tolkien had an exception that had little to no relevance in his story, then it would not have been mentioned, at all.

BITTER!
Well, its really used in different ways. Intense pain, intense animosity, greif, regret.

SAURON & WK!
So Sauron is this godly being who had even more power but he couldn't make a shield atleast as powerful as the WK? Anyone else find this odd, considering Sauron is basically a demigod in tolkien's world atleast.

BACKING!
Backing is a matter of oppinion. You can say the movie was\ great and give your own backing, but another could say it sucked and give their own backing.

CHEATING!
Cut it out EE. I grow tired of your accusations. No one here is cheating, despite what you think, no one here is telling you to lose whatever honor and integrity you possess. People are tired of you overreacting to what everyone says about you.

TACTICS ON VS THREADS!
I recall that both me and Steve have said constantly that we are pigheaded. We aren't in denile about that. We are indenile that the purple elleks aren't real. THEY ARE REAL!!!

Edits below.



MONKS!
No, they are immune to any sort of Disease or poisen, magic or otherwise.:smallwink:

ARMY SIZE!
Can't make a comment. DARN IT!

[Mr. Scaly]

Personally, i don't think you could beat him to death, but he does have a ghostly body so......yeah? But you'd die of the Black Breath (not Soth through)

Yeah, Soth is already dead. ^^ Hey, is Black breath a poison or a curse? I've wondered.


It is a spell, so yes, but it would most likely need to be something nasty

I think Soth has Greater Dispelling at will...too bad I don't know his caster level. :-P


Good old fashion fisticuffs

We need a 'BBEG vs BBEG in a fist fight with no special powers' thread.


no, i'm sorry, that source is wrong

"Carradoc had been caught up in the curese taht had doomed Soth to unlife. IN life, the seneschal had been a grasping, ambitious man, who had helped his master's career in any way necessary. He has dpread scandalous rumors about any rival who challenged Soth's position in the knightly society. When the Knights Council had questioned his master's claims to good deeds, he bore false witness to uphold Soth's version. He had even murdered for Soth, taking a dagger to his first wife while she slept. Even as teh fire struck Dargaard, Caradoc had been forging financial records in Soth's private study. It was there his bones still rested."

"Part of Carradoc's curse, and that of most ghosts, was that his wraithlike body allowed him little contact with the phyisical world, to meve even the smallest pieces of stone would have required intense concentration."

"The death knight struck Carradoc. No mortal could have done the same, for the ghost's noncorporal form protected him from physical attacks. To Soth, another undead creature, Carradoc was as solid as the skeleton that lay preserved in the room."

I heard that Soth killed his wife.

Wikipedia calls it:

"He and his wife, Lady Korrine of Gladria, tried over and over to have a son to be Soth's heir but had few positive results. Soth's wife then visited a witch to help her with this problem who then agreed but warned that the child would be a representation of Soth's soul. Thinking Sir Loren Soth pure of heart, the wife had no fear of this warning. ... On the day Soth's wife gave birth the labor was very painful. After hours of childbirth the "child" came to be. It had the face similar to that of dragon-kin with two arms on one side and a leg on the other. The last leg was placed at the bottom of the buttocks as if a tail. Soth raged thinking his wife had been disloyal to him with some kind of demon and then slaughtered her and the abomination. Soth then asked Caradoc, his lieutenant to get rid of the evidence and reveal the news of the deaths as difficult childbirth.

But Caradoc did hide the body though...and anyway Ravenloft fans and Dragonlance fans have been scrapping for years over which is canon. (shrugs) They're mostly the same to me.


Correct. Well at Pelanor fields, he had over a hundred thousand, more if you count the black ship, and Angmar is bigger, 500,000?

What was the black ship again? And huh. I could see it as possible but with those kinds of numbers it would be hard for them to have lost the entire War of the Ring.


Hmm, how large was it

Gunther uth Wistan guessed that it could hold a thousand troops or so. Since it's a fricking castle I'd say more like five thousand, but what do I know? Anyway, the citadel is like a combination of artillery platform and troop transport. Black robed mages cast spells from the walls, soldiers fire arrows/rocks/siege weapons, draconians float down on their wings, stuff like that.


Soth only has his banshees, his knights, and some hundreds mindless undead, with his ghost
Why would she have blacks? Do you mean greens?

Not great in numbers but huge in killing potential. In Tanis' words, Soth evened out the Battle of Palanthas. And it sounds weird, but Kit did have blacks in her army. Maybe greens were there too.


yeah i can imagine. It seems really annoying

Good thing the Awesome factor outweighs the lack of empyrical data.


See, my good deeds for the day. Nazgul in space.

Hm, if that is the case he could hurt the Wk

Assuming that Babidi's magic works the same way of course.


We have the stats, so i think he was exasperating, he is known to be melodramatic

from
EE

True.

[Steven the Lich]

I heard that Soth killed his wife. I heard he killed both of them. :smalltongue:


I recall that both me and Steve have said constantly that we are pigheaded. We aren't in denile about that. We are indenile that the purple elleks aren't real. THEY ARE REAL!!! Ahem* They were pink. I specifically remember that detail. It doesn't matter if either of us were drunk when we saw them either.


Yeah, Soth is already dead. ^^ Hey, is Black breath a poison or a curse? I've wondered. Yep, Soth died already... a matter of times, in fact.


CANNON! (Canon sir!) No, Cannon. BOOM RETURN FIRE! (But sir, he's a friendly) Oh... then just shoot at the enemy. OPEN FIRE!


They are BS outside of their word for all I care. To say that the WK's shield is just plain unbreakble is purely hackneyed and overdone. I am fed up with this constantly coming Hmm... That sums up my belief pretty well.


Seige weapons for the WK? Dodge em and take em out. Not too hard, and it takes ALOT of effort to aim a catapult or trebuchet. Try aiming at a flying target, it isn't easy. This is very true. The most reliable siege engine for accuracy would be the ballista, and it too requires good aim (And the WK is in lack of those). Siege engines are for siege, not sniping flying units.


I think Soth has Greater Dispelling at will...too bad I don't know his caster level. If he does have it, I can say that WK is doomed. That shield is one of the only factors that are contributing to the WK's possibility of winning.


Soth only has his banshees, his knights, and some hundreds mindless undead, with his ghost
Why would she have blacks? Do you mean greens? By this you mean he has no dragons?

Campaign wise, I'll make some more statements.
1) Dragons in ME are considered the win button. This said, if the orcs were to face Soth's dragons, moral may be low (Sure, different type, but still, the legends of dragons in ME would discourage the orcs).
2) The orcs hardly see any undead to my knowledge, besides the ring wraiths. With Soths numbers of death knights, they would have even less moral.
3) Soth has necromancy on his side, correct? If so, then his can improve his numbers over time while killing orcs too.
4) 13 skeletal knights with the touch of death, that are nearly invincible. They are the spartans, except with maybe less combat godliness but more magic to make up for it.
5) I ask this question. If numbers played such a huge role in battles, how the heck did the Wk lose the battle of Pelenor fields? Such huge numbers, by your points, should have instantly swarmed the defenders. So how did mordor lose? Numbers don't win battles, they only help. I personally favor quality over quantity.

[Mr. Scaly]

Campaign wise, I'll make some more statements.
1) Dragons in ME are considered the win button. This said, if the orcs were to face Soth's dragons, moral may be low (Sure, different type, but still, the legends of dragons in ME would discourage the orcs).
2) The orcs hardly see any undead to my knowledge, besides the ring wraiths. With Soths numbers of death knights, they would have even less moral.
3) Soth has necromancy on his side, correct? If so, then his can improve his numbers over time while killing orcs too.
4) 13 skeletal knights with the touch of death, that are nearly invincible. They are the spartans, except with maybe less combat godliness but more magic to make up for it.
5) I ask this question. If numbers played such a huge role in battles, how the heck did the Wk lose the battle of Pelenor fields? Such huge numbers, by your points, should have instantly swarmed the defenders. So how did mordor lose? Numbers don't win battles, they only help. I personally favor quality over quantity.

1) They'd have low morale anyway...dragonawe.
2) Soth himself has a fear aura as well actually. Not sure about his skeletal minions, but the demoralising presence is kind of literal. Hehe.
3) Actually I don't think he's much of a necromancer.
4) They kicked ass at Palanthas singlehandedly. I think that the only reason the good guys won was because Soth left at the climax, taking his men with him.
5) That's my thinking too. Personally I think that any draconian could kill any orc any day. Trouble is, being outnumbered that much doesn't make things easier...

[Tyrant]

Here's something for people to consider when they continue to try to use the ZOMG powerful weapons can hurt anything because they hurt the ZOMG powerful characters in this other setting. Superman. Superman, by virtually any definition, is insanely powerful. He has basically 2 weaknesses. Kryptonite and magic. Magic is understandable as it breaks the laws of reality. Kryptonite, however, is different. It can kill Superman with reasonable speed by him merely being around it. However, if you try to use this weapon that can bring down someone who is practically a god against someone who isn't a Kryptonian, you're probably going down unless you're plan is kill them with cancer from extremely long term exposure. But this is something that can bring down a being who can absolutely destroy the majority of opponents in VS threads. Surely by the logic employed here that means it can bring down demigods from other worlds, right? Or could it be that Kryptonite, like some of the weapons mentioned, can hurt the people they hurt for a reason and likewise won't hurt people that aren't succeptable to their power? This is mainly about the differences in protections/spells/etc. Just because something can get past the damage reduction of a godlike being, doesn't mean it bypasses everything.

Using Superman again for this example. Suppose his powers were that he was absolutely invulnerable (he's relatively close as is). That his weakness was only kryptonite, not magic (let's assume it has been spelled out that he is in fact immune to magical assault). Would you still argue that anything short of reality manipulation could destroy him? Why? Even using the ZOMG powerful setting argument, his setting has beings that can chew up and spit out virtually any other fictional character without a second thought. There would be no point in that debate using either method of establishing common ground. Unless as I suspect some would retreat to the "absolute doesn't actual mean absolute" argument.

To continue to use Superman as a baseline, suppose he meets a character from a low power setting (let's say, the Devils Due GIJoe timeline for super low powered) who is one of the, if not the, only character with superpowers. His power is to absord energy and force (I'm thinking something like a hybrid of Bishop and Sebastian Shaw). All forms and it works instantly. And his power is said to be absolute. If Superman tries to hit him, it will do nothing. If he shoots his heat vision at him, it will do nothing. Yet some will argue that simply because Superman can juggle planets, he can magically overcome this guy's powers (not saying he couldn't kill him some other way like drowning him or something) when he hits him. This guy's power is said to be absolute. Without limit. It doesn't matter if the author can't envision what that truly means, that's the guy's power no matter what you throw at him.

If you want common ground, absolutes have to be taken into account (not saying the WK thing is absolute). If something can only be damaged one way, it doesn't matter if you transport it through time and space to the big bang unless it's weakness is the big bang (or something that would be present in a form that could damage it as per it's weakness) it will be unharmed. I'm not as absolute on the WK as EE, but without using this method you're left with "Nuh Uh", "Yeah Huh" style arguments. In the case of absolutes, you have to figure out why it is absolute. If then there is a logical reason (ZOMG powerful =/= logical) why something from another setting would bypass that, then that would be acceptable.

Take the Phoenix for instance. Along with ZOMG powerful stats, she can twist reality to her will on a scale far beyond ME magic. It is reasonable to assume she could undo the WK, probably even Sauron and the One Ring (maybe even everything up the chain to Eru). She isn't just powerful beyond comprehension, her power is to bend the rules of reality so she can overcome things such as this. If Xavier were to try to take control of the WK, he would fail. He would have to engage Sauron in a battle of wills over control of the WK and he would not walk away the victor (assuming he could walk anywhere, on again off again paralysis not withstanding). Maybe if he had the mind gem (though that moves us back into reality manipulation territory). Xavier is a supremely powerful telepath and one of the most powerful mutants on Earth in Marvel, and he would fail in this task. On the flip side, if the Punisher were given bullets that were enchanted to hurt the undead he could probably bring him down. A man with absolutely no powers could legitametly stand a better chance than one of the most powerful mutants on Earth. All because he has the right thing for the job, and not just a cloud of ZOMG powerful hype floating around him. That's the point. Some things simply can't be hurt beyond a handful of methods, not matter how much power you put behind one of the methods that don't work.


5) I ask this question. If numbers played such a huge role in battles, how the heck did the Wk lose the battle of Pelenor fields? Such huge numbers, by your points, should have instantly swarmed the defenders. So how did mordor lose? Numbers don't win battles, they only help. I personally favor quality over quantity.

If the defenders had simply been on the open plain before the city, that is exactly what would have likely happened. In that battle, the defenders were in a position that had defenses that had to be destroyed before the swarm could begin. Given the sheer number brought, I believe it is safe to assume that was the main plan once Grond destroyed the gate. In a battle where the two sides just charge each other (as most hypothetical fictional battles seem to be, hence the importance of huge numbers), the side with a massive numerical advantage stands the better chance of victory, all things being equal. Now, when one side has soldiers that are vastly superior (say, Draconians compared to Orcs) that will have to be taken into account. It is still reasonable to assume they could be overrun by sheer weight of numbers, but the odds move more in their favor. This is just ground forces, the dragons would likely level the playing field by inflicting massive casualties on the Orcs. If any are brought down, their corpses will kill dozens (or more) Orcs. They will serve the cause even in death, just like the Draconians.

[Innis Cabal]

As quoted from TV-Tropes(As it seems that it is almost literaly used in every thread i view at least once)
-The trick to this prophecy is that what it was saying was misunderstood. The prophecy wasn't talking about what can't kill the Witch King, but what was going to.

Make of it/ignore it as you will

[Bago!!!]

Innis Cabal!
Interesting....

Tyrant!
If I recall correctly, superman was BASHED,PUMMELED, AND PULVERIZED to death. This isn't his weakness or vulnerablility, for he could take punishment without even flinching. One guy managed to kill superman with using overly powerful force. No bending reality or magic or anything like that. Just brute force This is what I am trying to say. No matter your defense, you can overcome it if you have enough power. Superman was suposedly invulnerable to everything that hit him (kyrptonite and magic aside) so in his ball park he was considered the greatest hero. Then doomsday comes along, wipes out most of the justice league and then wipes the street and buildings with superman. Everything has a weakness, I don't deny that, but some strengths can be over come by other strengths. Nothing is absolute until it is proven so. Reality bending, proven. Immovable object against unstopable force and lets see what happens....
Divine armor is divine because, though it is natural, it is still magic by nature and as such, its measure of power by the deity and the world.


ARMIES pt. 2!
Army size against a wall matters little. Course, that army could make a breech and then voila! But thats away from the point.
There is also the resistances to consider, the ability to kill creatures with breath weapons and magic. Undead have their own resistances, ghosts are incorpereal to all but magic weapons, banshees the same, and they all can have a demoralizing effect. This is basically the orcs greatest fear, and there is no way the WK can convince them all to stay and fight. He can only be in so many places. So we have an army of number vs. an army of magc/tanks/AA/shock troopers/immunity to fear/protection up the hizzy.

[Steven the Lich]

The trick to this prophecy is that what it was saying was misunderstood. The prophecy wasn't talking about what can't kill the Witch King, but what was going to. Actually, this is exactly what is meant by the prophecy. What will destroy the WK, not what can. Prophecies aren't really a protection at all, and are only valid within their worlds. Elsewhere, WK is free game.


If I recall correctly, superman was BASHED,PUMMELED, AND PULVERIZED to death. This isn't his weakness or vulnerablility, for he could take punishment without even flinching. One guy managed to kill superman with using overly powerful force. No bending reality or magic or anything like that. Just brute force This is what I am trying to say. No matter your defense, you can overcome it if you have enough power. Superman was suposedly invulnerable to everything that hit him (kyrptonite and magic aside) so in his ball park he was considered the greatest hero. Then doomsday comes along, wipes out most of the justice league and then wipes the street and buildings with superman. Everything has a weakness, I don't deny that, but some strengths can be over come by other strengths. Nothing is absolute until it is proven so. Reality bending, proven. Immovable object against unstopable force and lets see what happens....
Divine armor is divine because, though it is natural, it is still magic by nature and as such, its measure of power by the deity and the world. Here we have a good voice of reason. Doomsday (aptly named) wasn't even killed. According to sources, he wasn't even dead in the end. Says on wikipedia, in the closing page, it showed him laguhing his head off attached to an asteroid.
I personally don't really like how it ends up.


Army size against a wall matters little. Course, that army could make a breech and then voila! But thats away from the point.
There is also the resistances to consider, the ability to kill creatures with breath weapons and magic. Undead have their own resistances, ghosts are incorpereal to all but magic weapons, banshees the same, and they all can have a demoralizing effect. This is basically the orcs greatest fear, and there is no way the WK can convince them all to stay and fight. He can only be in so many places. So we have an army of number vs. an army of magc/tanks/AA/shock troopers/immunity to fear/protection up the hizzy. And Soth does have fortresses, his own castle as a matter of fact, and fortifications can be made. And the balance tips even further for Soth in campaign.


3) Actually I don't think he's much of a necromancer. Does he have necromancers on his side?

[Matar]

Im confused about the army part, honestly. Are we comparing the two total armys in this? Like, all of the Witch-Kings forces (Which, by proxy, is all of Saurons as well). Or just one battles worth for both of them?

'Cause yeah. I can only think of a few armys that can take on the full-force of the Saroun army.

[Mr. Scaly]

Does he have necromancers on his side?

Well there are black robed wizards in the Blue Wing. They may or may not be necromancers.

Matar, that's what EE and I have been hashing out. We seem to have agreed to not use every orc, Easterling and Haradrim in existence, just the ones WK has led in an army before. Like in Angmar, and at Pelennor Field. Still a pretty grim number but not so devastating given the right tactics.

[Innis Cabal]

Actually, this is exactly what is meant by the prophecy. What will destroy the WK, not what can. Prophecies aren't really a protection at all, and are only valid within their worlds. Elsewhere, WK is free game.

Well since people have been using it as a "win" button, i thought id point out that.....its not a shield, its just what will in the end get him, since we arnt using the middle earth world i assume, it dosnt really matter

[Bago!!!]

If I recall correctly, even if Soth defeats the WK, WK will eventually recover and return, as will Soth, so neither will meet their end complete end. Prophecy will have little effect in either world. I don't recall Soth have soul sucking powers so I guess the prophecy will still be intact.

If we include wizards, then the chances only increase in Soth's favor. Really, nothing destroys an army like a wizard can (aside from the war mage, they ROCK!). And if they have necromancy spells, EEEEEEEKKK!!!!

As for the WK's Army size, NO CLUE! So I really can't make a proper assumption. I can assume that if its saurons full force, then their chances are slim to none, or so I believe.


Soth's fortress, are we talking about the flying one and not his original castle? Cause his original castle won't be used, or so I believe.


Question! How do we know that its a spell that protects the WK? I just want to know where its mentioned and I think it makes sense, but just want to be sure.

[Tyrant]

Tyrant!
If I recall correctly, superman was BASHED,PUMMELED, AND PULVERIZED to death. This isn't his weakness or vulnerablility, for he could take punishment without even flinching. One guy managed to kill superman with using overly powerful force. No bending reality or magic or anything like that. Just brute force This is what I am trying to say. No matter your defense, you can overcome it if you have enough power. Superman was suposedly invulnerable to everything that hit him (kyrptonite and magic aside) so in his ball park he was considered the greatest hero. Then doomsday comes along, wipes out most of the justice league and then wipes the street and buildings with superman. Everything has a weakness, I don't deny that, but some strengths can be over come by other strengths. Nothing is absolute until it is proven so. Reality bending, proven. Immovable object against unstopable force and lets see what happens....

Not to sound like an ass, but reread what I wrote. Specifically
Superman, by virtually any definition, is insanely powerful. He has basically 2 weaknesses. and
Suppose his powers were that he was absolutely invulnerable (he's relatively close as is). That his weakness was only kryptonite, not magic (let's assume it has been spelled out that he is in fact immune to magical assault). I said he has basically 2 weaknesses. Now, given that we are debating absolutes, my choice in words should show that I wasn't meaning them to be all inclusive (the use of basically, specifically). Compare my description to the one I used for the hypothetical in the second quote. Unlike writers who apparently can't grasp what the words mean (that is the only reason I can come up with that people are debating the limits of absolutes, the terms can only be taken one way unless improperly used), I know how to use absolutes. I am quite aware that in the comics he can be beaten to death (by another kryptonian). My first point was about showing that something that can kill one uber powerful creature can't kill all uber powerful creatures, not what else can kill Superman. The second point (the second quote), was a hypothetical. Note the word suppose. Bringing up Doomsday doesn't invalidate my comments in the least. It was dealing with hypothetical absolutes involving a character that is close to that point most of the time (note, close, not there yet) to best illustrate the points. Would it make more sense if I used an all powerful deity who for some reason could actually be injured by some random thing?


Divine armor is divine because, though it is natural, it is still magic by nature and as such, its measure of power by the deity and the world.
In a fair number settings that isn't true. Divine=/= magic in the divine/arcane sense. Or at least not the meaning of magic in that world. It may appear as magic to mortals because it is so far beyond them and behaves in a similar manner, but it isn't the same arcane power wielded by say, a wizard. Otherwise, dispel (or something else that breaks magical protection) would work against it. There are things that while they may seem interchangable, they really aren't. A shield that stops magic damage won't stop divine damage. They didn't name them seperately to simply sound cool.


Well since people have been using it as a "win" button, i thought id point out that.....its not a shield, its just what will in the end get him, since we arnt using the middle earth world i assume, it dosnt really matter
I want to be clear on my take on the prophecy. It was in no way protecting him. It was stating how he would die. Having said that, it is pretty obvious that the blow from the barrow blade was what undid his defenses. Given the wording, it is reasonably clear that no other sword (on ME) could have done that. So, from this you have to ask what makes that sword special. It isn't super powerful by the standards of the other super swords, so it must be some special property that it had. It was the properties of the blade that allowed it to work, not some power level beyond 9000. It specifically mentions it breaking a spell that was in place. All of this adds up to needing a weapon with specific properties (or the inherent means to injure him or bypass the spell entirely) to kill him. That (and sufficiently powerful magic) are his weaknesses. That has nothing to do with the prophecy.

[Steven the Lich]

My first point was about showing that something that can kill one uber powerful creature can't kill all uber powerful creatures, not what else can kill Superman. This is a good point. But to state that frankly, this does not work on a good deal of epic items like Frostmourne. But Kryptonite has a known limit that is very clearly stated. It only works on people from Krypton (Mainly Superman, but Doomsday as well (Thats right, Doomsday was an experiment of the Kryptonians), but not as strongly).
I also believe that you may be overlooking the point Bago was trying to make there. Supermans god-like strength and invulnerability was overcome by brute strength. A shield of any size can be overcome by amount of force.
Superman had only two weaknesses that were specifically named, and he was by far the most powerful of all heroes. He was defeated by Doomsday who used neither of his two weaknesses.
And to place out this theory, I believe that Narsil/Anduril could penetrate the WK's shield, because if I recall correctly, it was made using some of the Valars magic, making it downright epic. That said, I think it could penetrate the WK's shield. No mention of Tolkien making a exception for the blade does not discredit it, because Aragorn never would've fought the WK anyway with the blade, so it wouldn't have such an impact worth mentioning.

[WalkingTarget]

And to place out this theory, I believe that Narsil/Anduril [...] was made using some of the Valars magic

I don't remember this being said anywhere.

I might go poking around in my Silmarillion later if I remember, but I don't recall anything like this in LotR itself. It has been a long time since I read the Unfinished Tales and I haven't gotten around to the History series, so there might be something I'm missing there, though. From what I remember, it's just a standard magic sword for ME (meaning it's really good at doing "swordy" things like cutting off limbs and such) that flashes with a light like a flame occasionally (which is what it was named for) and also happens to be the sword that Elendil used which by default makes it a royal heirloom in Arnor and Gondor (which is its most important aspect for the purposes of the story). I recall no other outstanding properties being specified. Sure, it was used against Sauron, but so was Aeglos about which we know next to nothing. The same goes for Ringil that was used against Morgoth himself.

From what I remember, it was made by a Dwarf named Telchar (who also made the knife Angrist used by Beren and the Helm of Hador that Turin wore) but other than the dwarves being the creation and students of Aule, I'm not sure that the Valar really come into it. Most of the other "magical" gear is independent of them after all.

If anyone can find something outright stating some extra-Valar goodness, feel free to correct me, though. :smallsmile:

As for the differences between Arcane and Divine, there's not much of a distinction in ME. Most of the "magic" in the setting is performed by the setting's quasi-angel/deities or directly enabled by them (the Rings allow for some neat stuff, but rely on Sauron being around to work), so which does that make it, hmm?

[EvilElitest]

DIVINE ARMOR!
Alright, so its supposedly 'natural' armor. Spell or no, the sheer power that it takes for an artifact to even bypass and penetrate a deity from a high magic setting is incredible. The only other beings capable of hurting deities are other deities and Grom when he was possessed. I agree with steven the Lich that divine armor, natural or otherwise, is still beyond the capabilities of the WK to match in magic alone. Are you saying that the WK is as powerful as a deity? I for one think that the WK hardly counts as any sort of deity.

1) Weather magic can be matched or not isn't the issue, the issue is that Frostmourn can over come natural magic, but i don't think it cam over come spells taht grant protection
2) The divine armor you mentioned already is a natural effect from being divine, not a spell that grants protection



POWER!
Alright, can I just say ont he subject of power itself, no matter what kind of protection you usually have, it can be over come by brute force most of the time or by superoir sources of power. Otherise, spell resistance wouldn't work, flamestrike wouldn't penetrate fire immunity (It does, just like abyssal flames bypasses such things because its part DIVINE, look it up if you don't believe me).

You can say? With what justification? the Wk doesn't come fron D&D i remind you, he doesn't follow that set of rules. You don't have any backing other than your own words




CANNON! (Canon sir!) No, Cannon. BOOM!
To be fair, this and every other vs. thread is noncannon because you would never see the WK fight against lord soth or Link fight Sepheroth or LK fight Sauron. So we can try to draw upon cannon as much as we can, but we must come up with our own assumptions in this tangled web of the IMPOSSIBLE, for there is no way Soth would be facing off against WK, or that the LOTR world or any of its character would meet with Dragonlance's. Anyone care to argue this point against me?

Yeah, me, because it misses the point. Yes vs. threads aren't cannon, but we use cannonially established information to people's abilities. If i say the WK can shoot lazers out of his hand, i have no basis other than a bad fan fiction, and thus i am using uncannon information. If i say that the WK's magic can render all other magic useless, then i am using uncannon information. If a say that the Wk's shield won't work against a certain person's attack, even through said attack lacks the ability to actually hurt him, then i am using uncannon information


ARMY!
Army wise, dragons hold a great advantage, undead hold a gread advantage (damage reduction and no critical hits) for the hold no fear, and the power that every dragon possess as a creature made of magic is just plain awesome. Every dragon can cast its fair share of spells and can breath a cone of cold, can move faster than most ground units, can't be harmed to much, can send foes running away crying to their mommies and can sustain a great deal of damage. They have quality where the WK has quantity. I say that quality is better than quantity. Its like the Machine gun in WWI against the constant wave of troops on either side. Each dragon is like said machine gun in comparison to the orcs. Does that make any sense? Poisen against dragons? Their bodies would fight it off without any problem. And they are basically immune to fear, and some dragons are immune to cold. And their own magical protections should be enough against the black breath and such. Seige weapons for the WK? Dodge em and take em out. Not too hard, and it takes ALOT of effort to aim a catapult or trebuchet. Try aiming at a flying target, it isn't easy.
1) Dragons have powers depending on age. Non of the army had great wyrms, i mean the general only had an adult dragon. Their powers are limited
2) Quality is not better than quantity if that is the only trick you have up your sleeve. Dragons can do a lot, but against such a huge army, the can't do enough to actually win. Dragons aren't an instant win button and every dragon lost is gone for ever.
3) Um, while the claim that dragons are immune to poison is a nice sounding thing, they don't have that in their stats if you recall
4) Why are they immune to black breath or fear? There isn't any bearing to this. They aren't undead, so the Black Break should work fine. The black shadow (IE the crop duster effect) maybe not, but black breath is extremly powerful and there is no established immunity. Dispite your claims, they have no magical protections against fear or something absolute like the black breath (in close contact at least). Nor the morgul blades
5) I never said it was easy, but when you have these guys preoccupied in the air from arrow fire, Black Breath, Nazgul Shooting arrows and trying to stab you, fell beasts, thrown rocks from trolls, the extra baggage from having flaming rocks fly past you, particularly when they are infused with evil powers isn’t something to be. Also ballista. Easier to aim, easier to reload, harder to avoid.



FROSTMOURNE & MAGICAL WEAPONS!
Unwieldy? I would say otherwise considering how arthas uses the weapon. Even if he is immensly skilled, the weapon seems to be about right for a greatsword and he still uses it with awesome skill, enough to over come Illidian, who was over 10,000 years of experiance under his belt, was wielding two weapons that he used with great finesse, was strong, and his current strength powered by incredibly powerful demons. Plus, its made by demons, which are not panzies. The sword can do things that are just plain impressive and would otherise be impossible, so I think it is worth the hype. I sincerely believe that mundane weapons can be destroyed by the WK's barrier, but magical weapons, depending on their power, can overcome them, for if I recall, the WK was only hit by only ONE magic weapon. Therefore, we cannot assume that all weapons are unable to penetrate the WK's shield.
1) Its design, particularly the handle and the way it is weighted is the problem
2) Yes yes, it is a power sword, however so is glaimring which can't hurt the WK ether
3) I already said this, its origin is unknown, don't claim it was made by demons as if taht was a fact
4) Sign, please back this stuff up. The magical weapon that pieced his shield also broke, and Aragorn said that any weapon that hit him would have broken
5) It also said that such a weapon was what was needed to break the shield, with no exceptions mentioned


EPIC!
I strongly believe that a weapon that is epic (and there is a point where an item does get to that point in power) can pull off alot of things. Course, specifically made epic weapons against specific enemies certainly are powerful (Ashbringer being the most notable that comes to mind). And how would we know if Glamdring or any of those other weapons would have no effect? I see no reason why the wouldn't.
1) And i strongly believe that the world is controlled by a secret union of sheep and pumpkins, and yet nobody believes me. Really, epic weapons are great in their own way, but that doesn't magically give them the specific requirements needed to over come the WK's spell
2) Because in the aforementioned quote, it said no other blade could have broken his spell. Considering Glamring and Orcish and Narzil are in Tolkien's own world, and yet aren't given mention, the Barrow blade must have a quality they did not, IE that it had an anti undead spell thing forged into it


ABSOLUTE RULES!
They are BS outside of their word for all I care. To say that the WK's shield is just plain unbreakble is purely hackneyed and overdone. I am fed up with this constantly coming up.

So cannon powers aren't useful when applied outside their world? So the Elder Evils aren't in fact powerful out side Lovecraft's world. The Wk's spell is in fact unbreakable except against things that can
A) Evade it, like direct magical attacks, like the spell holy smite or something
B) and anti undead weapon, like Ashbringer or a barrow blade
C) Something that will render such a spell useless, like the powers of an Elder Evil, IE something that can ignore the established rules at will
D) Something that can simply divert magic, some a creature that can literally change the effects of magic
E) Something that can simply ignore the rules. IE, a sword that cuts through magic
F) A situation where it wouldn't matter. You drop the WK into molten lava, and he will be destoryed, shield regardless.
G) Link's hat.........What? I can still believe



INTEGRITY!
I believe there is no quote that says anyone is asking anyone to give up their integrity, and I dare someone to say otherwise.
Malar's claim that Author's cannon doesn't matter when it is convenient. That we can simply ignoring established rules simply because it suits our purpose. there isn't any logical reason, there isn't any proof, there isn't any sources other than "Because i want it too." Yeah sure, i can claim that the Witch King's magic is so strong that it can make Lord Soth have the black Breath, Because Sauron is so much stronger than Lord Soth, but that doesn't give my point any backing


MAGICAL LEVEL!
Magical level does matter. Otherwise an Arch-mage could lose to your random grunt. The abilities of people in other settings are powered by their respective magic. Magic setting and power level is very important because it dictates what can be done and what can't be done.
Magical power matter, the magic level does not. Your right in saying that the level of power than and individual Vs. thread contestant possesses yes, no argument there, but a weapon is not automatically better because it comes from a higher magic setting


DBZ!
Anything in DBZ wins the cake because they pull of the impossible every season, such as destroying the planet. If you do a Frieza vs. Sauron, Frieza wins because he can simply fly up and blow up the planet. If it can destroy the planet, then it probally can destroy a shield, since a river managed to bypass the WK's shield.
1) The river had magical effects, it was the magic, not the water
2) DBZ, and forgive me if i have no knowledge of this, has no actual magic, just uber powers. If so, then Sauron and the Wk will be blasted and sent into space...........witch would be amazing



Tolkien's WORD!
Wait, so are we going by everything that Tolkien says? Because I've thought that some of what he said could not be used in some discussions. Which is it? We take is word or we don't? If you take one thing literal, you have to take EVERYTHING literal, and I HATE that.

When have we said we can't take his word? The only time we need to be careful is when we look at his unpublished works, as they are only notes if you understand what i mean


EXCEPTIONS!
If Tolkien had an exception that had little to no relevance in his story, then it would not have been mentioned, at all.

You haven't read LOTRS recently have you? Tolkien loves detail, and so will often go into tangents weather their relevance is a point or not


BITTER!
Well, its really used in different ways. Intense pain, intense animosity, greif, regret.
Yes, through i don't think that the WK was suddenly feeling regretful about his actions after being stabbed. Through that would be funny


SAURON & WK!
So Sauron is this godly being who had even more power but he couldn't make a shield atleast as powerful as the WK? Anyone else find this odd, considering Sauron is basically a demigod in tolkien's world atleast.

The Wk's shield comes from the fact he is undead and not truly a person, IE living partly in that other realm that Frodo sees. Sauron is a different type of being. Sauron had his own shield, as all Maiar do, but he lost his when his first body was destroyed. When he fought the last alliance, he was far weaker than his true form would dictate

By backing i mean logical proof. For example, if Link faced off against the WK, could his sword hurt him. I'd argue yes, because the master sword is the Bane of ALL evil, and so he is certainly exposed there, along with being holy, and damaging to undead, and can hurt spirits. I make a logical argument based on facts i've provided. If Mr. Scaly makes the claim that Lord Soth cna hurt the WK, we check and realize, hey his firsts can in fact do that, and so he can hurt teh WK with his fists. IF i claim that say, Buffy's wooden spike can hurt the Wk, i don't have any logical proof other than "well i think it would work"


CHEATING!
Cut it out EE. I grow tired of your accusations. No one here is cheating, despite what you think, no one here is telling you to lose whatever honor and integrity you possess. People are tired of you overreacting to what everyone says about you.
No. Using non canonical information, or correction, knowingly using non cannon information is in fact cheating. If i claim that the Wk can read minds, then i am in fact cheating. If i claim that the LK has an ability to mentally control all dragons and can over come anyone's magic, i am cheating. And if i ignore cannon evidence simply because it suits me, i am ether cheating, or i am using a flawed argument.


TACTICS ON VS THREADS!
I recall that both me and Steve have said constantly that we are pigheaded. We aren't in denile about that. We are indenile that the purple elleks aren't real. THEY ARE REAL!!!
Fair enough




MONKS!
No, they are immune to any sort of Disease or poisen, magic or otherwise.:smallwink:
Ah, good point, except they aren't immune to curses or fear.


ARMY SIZE!
Can't make a comment. DARN IT!
To be fair, everybody is confused on that one, you certainly aren't alone


Yeah, Soth is already dead. ^^ Hey, is Black breath a poison or a curse? I've wondered.

Curse, but it requires the person effected has a life that can be effected. So while it is a curse, somebody like soth, whose body is a burnt crisp, wouldn’t be effected


I think Soth has Greater Dispelling at will...too bad I don't know his caster level. :-P

He does? Eh? I wish we had more sources


We need a 'BBEG vs BBEG in a fist fight with no special powers' thread.

Heh, I could see that. Through it takes some of the drama away



I heard that Soth killed his wife.

Wikipedia calls it:

"He and his wife, Lady Korrine of Gladria, tried over and over to have a son to be Soth's heir but had few positive results. Soth's wife then visited a witch to help her with this problem who then agreed but warned that the child would be a representation of Soth's soul. Thinking Sir Loren Soth pure of heart, the wife had no fear of this warning. ... On the day Soth's wife gave birth the labor was very painful. After hours of childbirth the "child" came to be. It had the face similar to that of dragon-kin with two arms on one side and a leg on the other. The last leg was placed at the bottom of the buttocks as if a tail. Soth raged thinking his wife had been disloyal to him with some kind of demon and then slaughtered her and the abomination. Soth then asked Caradoc, his lieutenant to get rid of the evidence and reveal the news of the deaths as difficult childbirth.

But Caradoc did hide the body though...and anyway Ravenloft fans and Dragonlance fans have been scrapping for years over which is canon. (shrugs) They're mostly the same to me.

I’ve never heard this story, I heard that he killed her so he could marry the elf lady. I know however that Carradoc was not one of the13 knights. Point remains, Carradoc is a ghost, and wasn’t a fighter in lift, but soth can hurt him with his hands


What was the black ship again? And huh. I could see it as possible but with those kinds of numbers it would be hard for them to have lost the entire War of the Ring.

1) The Black Ships were the forces of Umber who came in service to Sauron. 1 flag ship, 50 great ships, and 150 lesser ships I believe, manned by slaves and over flowing with warriors.
2) To be fair, that is counting my estimate of the forces of Angmar, who weren’t in they War of the Ring and were destroyed earlier
3) Sauron has a lot of bad things happen to him throughout the war, but it is stated that in terms of military might, the Good guys could not possible win. However after the Ring was destroyed, the army fell apart.



Gunther uth Wistan guessed that it could hold a thousand troops or so. Since it's a fricking castle I'd say more like five thousand, but what do I know? Anyway, the citadel is like a combination of artillery platform and troop transport. Black robed mages cast spells from the walls, soldiers fire arrows/rocks/siege weapons, draconians float down on their wings, stuff like that.
[/QUOTE
Yeah, are we counting that? I thought we were counting the original forces
[QUOTE]
I heard he killed both of them.

The second one killed herself


By this you mean he has no dragons?

No, I just through he had blue dragons, not blacks and greens



Campaign wise, I'll make some more statements.
1) Dragons in ME are considered the win button. This said, if the orcs were to face Soth's dragons, moral may be low (Sure, different type, but still, the legends of dragons in ME would discourage the orcs).
2) The orcs hardly see any undead to my knowledge, besides the ring wraiths. With Soths numbers of death knights, they would have even less moral.
3) Soth has necromancy on his side, correct? If so, then his can improve his numbers over time while killing orcs too.
4) 13 skeletal knights with the touch of death, that are nearly invincible. They are the spartans, except with maybe less combat godliness but more magic to make up for it.
5) I ask this question. If numbers played such a huge role in battles, how the heck did the Wk lose the battle of Pelenor fields? Such huge numbers, by your points, should have instantly swarmed the defenders. So how did mordor lose? Numbers don't win battles, they only help. I personally favor quality over quantity.

1) You do recall however, that the orcs moral, at least when the WK is alive doesn’t matter. They are so devoted to him, that if told them too, they would all fall on their swords according to the books.
2) Ah you forget, Barrow Wights, lesser wraiths. Also Soth only has skeletonal knights, not Death knights. Skeletonal Knights, as shown in the book, are smarter, tougher skeletons, but not super
3) He only can raise a small amount. In his castle or when facing adventures, a few dozen skeletons are nasty, but not when in an army. These are zombies and normal skeltons by the way
4) 4) see 2)
5) the WK didn’t have that many, I was counting his forces at Agmar (three giant armies, plus defensive forces) but the loss at Minas Tirith was a nasty battle, but here is the run down on why he lost
A) Gandalf was there. The defenders weren’t even suppose to be able to fight back, the WK’s fear effect was so great, but Gandalf was able to let the men react to the numbers and use their massively defensible seven level fortress to their advantage, inflicting more casualties then normally expected, along with gandalf’s aid. Gandalf also commanded the city garrison, so people were acting more competent then when Denethor was in charge
B) The Riders of Rohan showed up unrepentantly. While the WK bet they were going to show up, he sent a large amount of his force (something above 1,200 orcs) to block the only known road into the field. These guys never saw combat, and thus never joined the fighting. The riders however did show up, because of the secret pass through the Woses forest, where they crashed into the orcs right flank directly (in the movie they didn’t make a big speech, but instead quickly smashed into them) causing lots of chaos. The woses themselves were said to be hunting orcs and inflicting damage on the orcs as well
C) The death of the Hardadrim king,
D) The Death of the WK himself, massive moral problems, with fighting going on both at the gate, and in the field. The Prince, and Eomer were able to combine their forces and attack directly, being trapped on a hill near the ruined city. However, according to the book, the battle would have still been lost, had not
E) The Black Ships came. Now the entire navy was destroyed by the Army of the Dead, and all of the lands south of the White City were suppose to be taken over. However instead, all of these ships were filled with the warriors of the south, plus more who came up from the south directly, along with Aragon and his grey Company (I think they were about 50, both Rangers of the North and Elves, along with Legolas and Gimli). The slaves upon those ships joined the battle as well, along with the nifftyness of having ships so even on their own that would be a nasty army
F) It is made worst for the Forces of Mordor because this army was at first accepted as friends, and so this army was already directly behind them and in their mist when Aragorn led the attack, with the Banner of gondor (a scary moral thing). With a large army attacking with surprise, in their ranks, with the sword that was broken and the king returned, directly attacking them from behind (never mind that they were suppose to be friends) there are huge moral issues, made worst by the fact that the Riders and the forces of gondor are doing a renewed charge while they are still startled. Even then, the forces are said to still be to large, when
G) Sauron’s magic is dispelled, and the sun shines down. The orcs and trolls and the cross breeds are now usless, and the good guys get a huge moral boast. Even then, the evil men put up a good fight and the battle goes on for another day, but the forces of mordor eventually break and run, where they are more easily killed
So numbers did play a role, just it failed in the end. However, Mordor as suppose to have enough forces to dwarf the Wk's army.

Innas, the deal with the shield and the Prophecy are two different arguments

Good job Tryant

Walking target, the blade was forged by the best dwarven smith in the world, who's other weapons are said to be amazing. Narzil along with Gilads spear are said to be some of the beast weapons in the world. From wiki



Description

The reforged Andúril is described in The Fellowship of the Ring, the first volume of The Lord of the Rings as originally printed:

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West.[1]

Some passages in Tolkien's writings, including the above, imply or indicate that Narsil/Andúril glowed, similar to Sting and Glamdring.

From The Silmarillion:

...the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil. ...Thus Narsil came in due time to the hand of Valandil, Isildur's heir, in Imladris; but the blade was broken and its light extinguished, and it was not forged anew.[2]

There are several other indications of this in The Lord of the Rings, including:

But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head.[3]

Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out.[4]

Charging from the side, they hurled themselves upon the wild men. Andúril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went up from wall and tower: "Andúril! Andúril goes to war. The Blade that was Broken shines again!" ...Three times Aragorn and Éomer rallied them, and three times Andúril flamed in a desperate charge that drove the enemy from the wall.[5]

Tolkien confirms that this glow was not simply due to reflection or polishing in a private letter, where he describes Andúril as glowing with an "elvish light".[6]

Unlike Sting and Glamdring, Narsil/Andúril was not described to glow in the presence of Orcs, and it did not glow blue. Rather, it glowed with a red light in sunlight, and a white light in moonlight.
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

1) The river had magical effects, it was the magic, not the water

Supposition. Also, this point leads to the conclusion that any mundane thing with "magical effects" would bypass the WK's protections. How does a "magic sword" not count (as it could be "the magic, not the sword" that does it)? How about a hypothetical magic mace? It's not a "blade" so would that do the trick? Of course, I'm in the (apparently minority) camp that doesn't think that the Nazgul were "killed" at that point (just footbound and all but blind until they made it home), so make of that what you will.


The Wk's shield comes from the fact he is undead and not truly a person, IE living partly in that other realm that Frodo sees. Sauron is a different type of being. Sauron had his own shield, as all Maiar do, but he lost his when his first body was destroyed. When he fought the last alliance, he was far weaker than his true form would dictate

:smallconfused: Like the High Elves live simultaneously in that other realm that Frodo sees? Would Glorfindel have been able to kill them since he's able to hit them in both places at once (they were definitely scared of him after all)? I assumed that the "spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will" implied quite heavily that whatever protections he has are due to some specific magic going on. It's not like he stopped being "undead" when this spell was broken.

I'm also not sure where you're getting this "Maiar shield" idea either. Care to clarify that? Morgoth was wounded by an elf with a sword without losing a body first, and he's an order of magnitude higher up the ladder than the Maiar. Valar and Maiar "true forms" alike wouldn't be hurt by any weapon as they don't naturally have bodies to injure but when they take a body it's just as "destructible"* as anybody else's.

*word taken from Tolkien's Letters when describing the incarnations of Sauron and Gandalf.


No. Using non canonical information, or correction, knowingly using non cannon information is in fact cheating. If i claim that the Wk can read minds, then i am in fact cheating. If i claim that the LK has an ability to mentally control all dragons and can over come anyone's magic, i am cheating. And if i ignore cannon evidence simply because it suits me, i am ether cheating, or i am using a flawed argument.

EE, no offense meant, really, but the bolded part is precisely what many people see you doing. Frequently. Maybe not "ignoring" it as such, but at least forcing every round peg of text into the square hole that is your preconceived interpretation of events. Like your decision in the first line I quoted to assume that the "magic" in the river is what allowed it to harm the WK. There's no such evidence in the text to back that statement up, you just assume that since a flood set the WK back that there must be some reason for it beyond simply being hit by a few tons of water. I don't necessarily think that you do it intentionally, but your arguments aren't always as airtight as you claim they are. :smallfrown:

[EvilElitest]

Supposition. Also, this point leads to the conclusion that any mundane thing with "magical effects" would bypass the WK's protections. How does a "magic sword" not count (as it could be "the magic, not the sword" that does it)? How about a hypothetical magic mace? It's not a "blade" so would that do the trick? Of course, I'm in the (apparently minority) camp that doesn't think that the Nazgul were "killed" at that point (just footbound and all but blind until they made it home), so make of that what you will.


"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"
The flood is a magical effect, it rises at Elrond's command and Gandalf was able to create water horse people things, and they are in the magical valley of Rivendale. The Riders, weakened through they were, were hit directly by some sort of magical effect, and that drove them back (through non of them were as broken as the WK was when he was stabbed by Eowyn. Even then, only eight of the nine were crippled, as stated on page 288.

So direct magical effects will harm them, like Frodo's utterance of the holy words and gandalf's burst of light at the fields. But physical attacks with weapons need to be of a different quality, so you need a specific weapon that can hurt him, or Fisticuffs if your Soth.

A magic mace is simply nit picking, for the sake of clarity, we should assume this applies to all weapons, other wise why would they bother making anti undead swords in the first place. Everybody in Anor would use magic maces

Actually i don't think you are in the minority about the river incident, they are said to have been crippled and forced to go home to mordor. That being said, they were driven back. When the Wk was slain be Eowyn, his body was literally destroyed and he had to go back to Mordor in Spirit. Which sucked for him, because the Ring was destroyed shortly after




:smallconfused: Like the High Elves live simultaneously in that other realm that Frodo sees? Would Glorfindel have been able to kill them since he's able to hit them in both places at once (they were definitely scared of him after all)? I assumed that the "spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will" implied quite heavily that whatever protections he has are due to some specific magic going on. It's not like he stopped being "undead" when this spell was broken.

Actually your right. I didn't think about it that way. IN a sense the Wk has three protections
1) Against males. The prophecy. We never use this in vs. threads anymore, not worth the argument
2) The fact he is a wraith, like all of the other Nazgul. In order to harm the nazgul you need to be able to pull something impressive off, like Glorfindel did. I think he could have harmed or killed the lesser nazgul with his powers
3) The whole spell of protection. This is unique to him. Hmmmmm, that is an interesting thing to think about


I'm also not sure where you're getting this "Maiar shield" idea either. Care to clarify that? Morgoth was wounded by an elf with a sword without losing a body first, and he's an order of magnitude higher up the ladder than the Maiar. Valar and Maiar "true forms" alike wouldn't be hurt by any weapon as they don't naturally have bodies to injure but when they take a body it's just as "destructible"* as anybody else's.

I was thinking about the fact that Gandalf the White comments that normal weapons cannot harm him. Valar and Maiar protection isn't as absolute as the WK's protection, which is a spell thing, they just are hard to hurt or damage. Sauron in the second age was more so because his new body was weaker and remade


must[/I] be some reason for it beyond simply being hit by a few tons of water. I don't necessarily think that you do it intentionally, but your arguments aren't always as airtight as you claim they are. :smallfrown:

What i'm talking about is not making an assumption or proposing a theory, what i'm saying is simply ignoring evidence based on whim

For example, in the whole WK shield thing, you and me arguing over its effects is just different interpretations over evidence.

If me and you have an argument about the powers of super man based on different cannon, thats fine

However if, like the aforementioned poster, doesn't attempt to argue the powers of the shield, but acknowledge its power and then say "Nah, it doesn't work because i say so" That is just wanting your guy to win.

Saying "well it wouldn't work because this guy is from another universe" is a flawed argument because then vs. threads are useless, because nothing works

Saying "this guy is too cool to follow the rules" doesn't work unless we have in world evidence of his being able to break the rules (like the Elder evils).
from
Ee

[Tyrant]

This is a good point. But to state that frankly, this does not work on a good deal of epic items like Frostmourne. But Kryptonite has a known limit that is very clearly stated. It only works on people from Krypton (Mainly Superman, but Doomsday as well (Thats right, Doomsday was an experiment of the Kryptonians), but not as strongly).
I am aware that kryptonite only works on kryptonians. That was my point. Just because something can harm the most bad ass powerful character in an uber powerful setting doesn't mean that it can hurt anything and everything. Some of these things can hurt specific characters for specific reasons. I believe most epic weapons could injure a good number of characters outside their settings. However, if those characters require specific things to hurt them then epic weapons don't instantly gain the power to overcome established defenses without good reason. Again, going with my "suppose Superman were immune to magic" comments he wouldn't even be scratched by most epic weapons. They don't just suddenly gain the ability to hurt everyone from weaker powered settings based on the say so of fans.


I also believe that you may be overlooking the point Bago was trying to make there. Supermans god-like strength and invulnerability was overcome by brute strength. A shield of any size can be overcome by amount of force. Superman had only two weaknesses that were specifically named, and he was by far the most powerful of all heroes. He was defeated by Doomsday who used neither of his two weaknesses.
I'm not overlooking it. It isn't all encompassing. It works sometimes and other times it doesn't. Some shields truely can't be overcome by brute force. This really isn't a hard concept to follow. Superman, prior to being killed by Doomsday, had been beaten up by foes of comparible strength. To have him be killed by a foe of equal or superior strength falls right in line with that. He was never said to be absolutely invulnerable (and if he was said to be that, then it was a mistake as it was disproven numerous times against foes such as Darkseid) so this isn't going against everything that had come to pass.



And to place out this theory, I believe that Narsil/Anduril could penetrate the WK's shield, because if I recall correctly, it was made using some of the Valars magic, making it downright epic. That said, I think it could penetrate the WK's shield. No mention of Tolkien making a exception for the blade does not discredit it, because Aragorn never would've fought the WK anyway with the blade, so it wouldn't have such an impact worth mentioning.
Given that the quote says no other weapon (not though mightier hands had wielded it), I believe you are mistaken. The lack of exception, coupled with Tolkien's immense detail on even the most trivial of items, I think it safe to conclude that no other weapon wielded by men could have done that. Even if you were to narrow it down to just their types of weapons, that means no other sword (like Narsil), wielded by mightier hands (Aragorn's, for instance) could have done that. Now, I do believe that Aragorn could injure him with Narsil, just not destroy him or undo his protection which would allow him to be destroyed. Of course, Aragorn will only get one shot.


As for the differences between Arcane and Divine, there's not much of a distinction in ME. Most of the "magic" in the setting is performed by the setting's quasi-angel/deities or directly enabled by them (the Rings allow for some neat stuff, but rely on Sauron being around to work), so which does that make it, hmm?

As I was thinking about what I wrote sometime after I wrote it, this occured to me. In ME the line is pretty blurry as those with what would be called arcane power in other settings are almost all divine in nature. I think that some things could be distinguised, but I understand the argument against doing so. Things which are called spells outright, would likely fall under arcane. Things like Sauron's will driving his forces would be divine. Again, not an argument I would really stick to as I cna see where some would take issue with it and rightly so. However, in other settings, the line is usually pretty clear. I don't play WoW so I don't know if it is distinct like it appears to be in say, D&D (some settings anyway). But, based on the descriptions given, it does sound like the two are seperate and not the same thing. Which comes back to my comment that just because something can wound a god doesn't mean it can wound anything and everything that is even remotely similar. Now, using Frostmourne as the example (I believe it can hurt the WK, for the record), if chaotic says that it overcomes all defenses, then it would also overcome magical defenses as they are part of WoW and it says all. If it doesn't say that and singles out things like divine, then it isn't safe to just assume that because it can wound a god that it can wound anything.

[WalkingTarget]

"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"
The flood is a magical effect, it rises at Elrond's command and Gandalf was able to create water horse people things, and they are in the magical valley of Rivendale. The Riders, weakened through they were, were hit directly by some sort of magical effect, and that drove them back (through non of them were as broken as the WK was when he was stabbed by Eowyn. Even then, only eight of the nine were crippled, as stated on page 288.

So direct magical effects will harm them, like Frodo's utterance of the holy words and gandalf's burst of light at the fields. But physical attacks with weapons need to be of a different quality, so you need a specific weapon that can hurt him, or Fisticuffs if your Soth.

A magic mace is simply nit picking, for the sake of clarity, we should assume this applies to all weapons, other wise why would they bother making anti undead swords in the first place. Everybody in Anor would use magic maces

Actually i don't think you are in the minority about the river incident, they are said to have been crippled and forced to go home to mordor. That being said, they were driven back. When the Wk was slain be Eowyn, his body was literally destroyed and he had to go back to Mordor in Spirit. Which sucked for him, because the Ring was destroyed shortly after

Oh, I'm aware that the flood itself is a response to a magical command. Your supposition is that the "magic" there is what causes them harm, not just a bloody great wall of water. Flood conditions are a very effective way to "bar the Ford" but that passage makes no mention of any other magical effect the water has on the Nine (Gandalf admits to adding a cosmetic touch, but he doesn't say that it does anything other than look awesome).

Another point (and again, this is just my opinion) is that there aren't any do-overs for the Nazgul. Once they're actually killed, they're done. You shall not pass Go, and shall not collect a new body. I don't think they were killed at the flood and I don't think whichever one whose mount Legolas shot died either. I do think that after running into Eowyn, the WK was Killed Off For Real. Most opinions I've seen otherwise tend to use the flood-incident as evidence, but if people don't agree on the axioms then there can't really be any convincing anyway.


Actually your right. I didn't think about it that way. IN a sense the Wk has three protections
1) Against males. The prophecy. We never use this in vs. threads anymore, not worth the argument
2) The fact he is a wraith, like all of the other Nazgul. In order to harm the nazgul you need to be able to pull something impressive off, like Glorfindel did. I think he could have harmed or killed the lesser nazgul with his powers
3) The whole spell of protection. This is unique to him. Hmmmmm, that is an interesting thing to think about

On point three, there's not really any reason to think that this spell or whatever has to be unique to the WK. He's just the only one hit by a Barrow Blade (or injured in any way, really). A thought occurs: whatever this "spell" is might just be whatever effect that his Ring has in prolonging his "life" (keeping his body and mind/soul/fea together longer than it should), in which case all of the Nazgul would have it. This is just speculation as there's nothing to prove it, but what do people think?


I was thinking about the fact that Gandalf the White comments that normal weapons cannot harm him. Valar and Maiar protection isn't as absolute as the WK's protection, which is a spell thing, they just are hard to hurt or damage. Sauron in the second age was more so because his new body was weaker and remade

Hmm... I don't remember Gandalf claiming invulnerability to weapons, but I can't rule that sort of thing out. Of course, the White version was the 2nd incarnation after the Grey died, so the 2nd body = weaker rule would need modification in any event. I grant that Sauron in general was weaker during the days of the Last Alliance due to the spreading-evil problem that also plagued Morgoth, but I can't think of a reason why he couldn't magic up some protection like the WK's if it's just a spell. The point where you lose people is where you start claiming that the WK has better mojo than Sauron (as Sauron's not an idiot and if his minions have "absolute protection" then he's sure as s*** going to figure out how to arrange it for himself).


What i'm talking about is not making an assumption or proposing a theory, what i'm saying is simply ignoring evidence based on whim [etc.]


Gotcha. :smallsmile:

[WalkingTarget]

"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"
The flood is a magical effect, it rises at Elrond's command and Gandalf was able to create water horse people things, and they are in the magical valley of Rivendale. The Riders, weakened through they were, were hit directly by some sort of magical effect, and that drove them back (through non of them were as broken as the WK was when he was stabbed by Eowyn. Even then, only eight of the nine were crippled, as stated on page 288.

So direct magical effects will harm them, like Frodo's utterance of the holy words and gandalf's burst of light at the fields. But physical attacks with weapons need to be of a different quality, so you need a specific weapon that can hurt him, or Fisticuffs if your Soth.

A magic mace is simply nit picking, for the sake of clarity, we should assume this applies to all weapons, other wise why would they bother making anti undead swords in the first place. Everybody in Anor would use magic maces

Actually i don't think you are in the minority about the river incident, they are said to have been crippled and forced to go home to mordor. That being said, they were driven back. When the Wk was slain be Eowyn, his body was literally destroyed and he had to go back to Mordor in Spirit. Which sucked for him, because the Ring was destroyed shortly after

Oh, I'm aware that the flood itself is a response to a magical command. Your supposition is that the "magic" there is what causes them harm, not just a bloody great wall of water. Flood conditions are a very effective way to "bar the Ford" but that passage makes no mention of any other magical effect the water has on the Nine (Gandalf admits to adding a cosmetic touch, but he doesn't say that it does anything other than look awesome). There is no direct magical effect on the Nazgul here. The direct magical effect is on the water.

Another point (and again, this is just my opinion) is that there aren't any do-overs for the Nazgul. Once they're actually killed, they're done. You shall not pass Go, and shall not collect $200 a new body. I don't think they were killed at the flood and I don't think whichever one whose mount Legolas shot died either. I do think that after running into Eowyn, the WK was Killed Off For Real. Most opinions I've seen otherwise tend to use the flood-incident as evidence, but if people don't agree on the axioms then there can't really be any convincing anyway.


Actually your right. I didn't think about it that way. IN a sense the Wk has three protections
1) Against males. The prophecy. We never use this in vs. threads anymore, not worth the argument
2) The fact he is a wraith, like all of the other Nazgul. In order to harm the nazgul you need to be able to pull something impressive off, like Glorfindel did. I think he could have harmed or killed the lesser nazgul with his powers
3) The whole spell of protection. This is unique to him. Hmmmmm, that is an interesting thing to think about

On point three, there's not really any reason to think that this spell or whatever has to be unique to the WK. He's just the only one hit by a Barrow Blade (or injured in any way, really). A thought occurs: whatever this "spell" is might just be whatever effect that his Ring has in prolonging his "life" (keeping his body and mind/soul/fea together longer than it should), in which case all of the Nazgul would have it. This is just speculation as there's nothing to prove it, but what do people think?


I was thinking about the fact that Gandalf the White comments that normal weapons cannot harm him. Valar and Maiar protection isn't as absolute as the WK's protection, which is a spell thing, they just are hard to hurt or damage. Sauron in the second age was more so because his new body was weaker and remade

Hmm... I don't remember Gandalf claiming invulnerability to weapons, but I can't rule that sort of thing out. Of course, the White version was the 2nd incarnation after the Grey died, so the 2nd body = weaker rule would need modification in any event. I grant that Sauron in general was weaker during the days of the Last Alliance due to the spreading-evil problem that also plagued Morgoth, but I can't think of a reason why he couldn't magic up some protection like the WK's if it's just a spell. The point where you lose people is where you start claiming that the WK has better mojo than Sauron (as Sauron's not an idiot and if his minions have "absolute protection" then he's sure as s*** going to figure out how to arrange it for himself).


What i'm talking about is not making an assumption or proposing a theory, what i'm saying is simply ignoring evidence based on whim [etc.]


Gotcha. :smallsmile:

[Innis Cabal]

Actually your right. I didn't think about it that way. IN a sense the Wk has three protections
1) Against males. The prophecy. We never use this in vs. threads anymore, not worth the argument
2) The fact he is a wraith, like all of the other Nazgul. In order to harm the nazgul you need to be able to pull something impressive off, like Glorfindel did. I think he could have harmed or killed the lesser nazgul with his powers
3) The whole spell of protection. This is unique to him. Hmmmmm, that is an interesting thing to think about

Actually the protection isnt a protection, as it has been provided that the Prophecy was not what -can- hit him but what -will- kill him. A hafling(Not a MAN, as in the race of MEN) and a woman(Not a MAN, as in has girly parts). Thus the words that no MAN will slay him is in fact correct. Going on that, Soth is not a MAN as he has shed the mortal coil, joined the choir invisable, etc etc....the dude's dead. The WK actually dosnt have a "shield" he has a prophecy(Which still works with Soth, sorry no game on that) end of that discussion, just because you want to twist it away from how the writter meant it...well.....see above for the reasons why this dosnt work

[Mr. Scaly]

Yes, through i don't think that the WK was suddenly feeling regretful about his actions after being stabbed. Through that would be funny

(Witch King gets hobbit stabbed) "Only now do I realise the joys that a life of virtue would bring..."



1) Dragons have powers depending on age. Non of the army had great wyrms, i mean the general only had an adult dragon. Their powers are limited

Nitpicking, but the dragons are old enough to carry riders whatever that counts for.


2) Quality is not better than quantity if that is the only trick you have up your sleeve. Dragons can do a lot, but against such a huge army, the can't do enough to actually win. Dragons aren't an instant win button and every dragon lost is gone for ever.

More nitpicking. True they aren't an instant win button, but quality certainly helps a lot. I.E. The Blood War, where devils are regularly outnumbered 20 or more to one and win at least half the time.


4) Why are they immune to black breath or fear? There isn't any bearing to this. They aren't undead, so the Black Break should work fine. The black shadow (IE the crop duster effect) maybe not, but black breath is extremly powerful and there is no established immunity. Dispite your claims, they have no magical protections against fear or something absolute like the black breath (in close contact at least). Nor the morgul blades

So many nitpickings... WK et all would have to actually pierce their scales first which is tough to do. Don't know about fear effects affecting them, but they've got their own fear effects so...maybe?



1) And i strongly believe that the world is controlled by a secret union of sheep and pumpkins, and yet nobody believes me.

It's the Chinese who really control the world secretly. And China is secretly controlled by the cockroaches.


2) DBZ, and forgive me if i have no knowledge of this, has no actual magic, just uber powers. If so, then Sauron and the Wk will be blasted and sent into space...........witch would be amazing

The only really magical character that shows up was the wizard Babidi, who did things like mind control, magic shields, some weird attack that was pretty ineffectual...once he teleported a hostile waitress on top of a flag pole. Mostly he was a joke character.



Okay. No more nitpicking for me.




Curse, but it requires the person effected has a life that can be effected. So while it is a curse, somebody like soth, whose body is a burnt crisp, wouldn’t be effected

The advantages of being dead. Hey, how does WK fight? I was wondering since Soth tends to be honourable about it even in death, and will accept one on one challenges and stuff like that.


He does? Eh? I wish we had more sources

I think so...but I don't have the exact stats either. I've checked the net and found at least three different set of stats, ranging from CR 11 to CR 20. Two had the Greater Dispelling trick.


Heh, I could see that. Through it takes some of the drama away

But what could be more entertaining than watching Voldemort and Hannibal Lector beating the paste out of each other?


I’ve never heard this story, I heard that he killed her so he could marry the elf lady. I know however that Carradoc was not one of the13 knights. Point remains, Carradoc is a ghost, and wasn’t a fighter in lift, but soth can hurt him with his hands

Yeah, true. No matter who killed who when and how, Soth can apparently punch out WK.


1) The Black Ships were the forces of Umber who came in service to Sauron. 1 flag ship, 50 great ships, and 150 lesser ships I believe, manned by slaves and over flowing with warriors.
2) To be fair, that is counting my estimate of the forces of Angmar, who weren’t in they War of the Ring and were destroyed earlier
3) Sauron has a lot of bad things happen to him throughout the war, but it is stated that in terms of military might, the Good guys could not possible win. However after the Ring was destroyed, the army fell apart.

Should we assume that the Black Ships have already landed their warriors for this battle or are on their way?

Come to think of it, what's the battleground like?



Yeah, are we counting that? I thought we were counting the original forces

The Citadel is part of the original forces. It's like a weapon that the army mans. And it was used during the War of the lance too, so the Blue Wing has had it for a while.


The second one killed herself

Oh, right. The fiery mountain thing.


No, I just through he had blue dragons, not blacks and greens

Greens make sense since the Green Wing merged with the Blue Wing, but I guess some blacks just signed up.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, I'm aware that the flood itself is a response to a magical command. Your supposition is that the "magic" there is what causes them harm, not just a bloody great wall of water. Flood conditions are a very effective way to "bar the Ford" but that passage makes no mention of any other magical effect the water has on the Nine (Gandalf admits to adding a cosmetic touch, but he doesn't say that it does anything other than look awesome).

1) The river rising like that is a magical effect. It is physically impossible for a normal river to suddenly become gigantic nor to take funny shapes. So it is a magical effect at least. Also a river, or at least a normal one can't have rage
2) The valley is said to be magical
3) I doubt Gandalf would only add a magical effect in such a dangerous situation simply for the sake of awesome. I mean, it does look cool i admit, but isn't that little inappropriate? Wouldn't he do it to actually help, in the last page of the Chapter "Flight to the Ford" they are said to be charging the Nazgul, through i admit they don't say if they do anything


Another point (and again, this is just my opinion) is that there aren't any do-overs for the Nazgul. Once they're actually killed, they're done. You shall not pass Go, and shall not collect a new body. I don't think they were killed at the flood and I don't think whichever one whose mount Legolas shot died either. I do think that after running into Eowyn, the WK was Killed Off For Real. Most opinions I've seen otherwise tend to use the flood-incident as evidence, but if people don't agree on the axioms then there can't really be any convincing anyway.
I don't think so actually. I mean, i admit there physical bodies being destroyed doesn't happen in the books except with the WK, but they are bound to the one ring. I mean, i think they were destroyed in the Second age, and they are still spirits who are part of the One rings power, it seems like that as long as the One Ring exists, they can't die



On point three, there's not really any reason to think that this spell or whatever has to be unique to the WK. He's just the only one hit by a Barrow Blade (or injured in any way, really). A thought occurs: whatever this "spell" is might just be whatever effect that his Ring has in prolonging his "life" (keeping his body and mind/soul/fea together longer than it should), in which case all of the Nazgul would have it. This is just speculation as there's nothing to prove it, but what do people think?

Good point, considering everybody tends to treat the other nazgul in a similar way as the Wk in terms of combat (magic and the whole No man can hurt me thing non withstanding)


Hmm... I don't remember Gandalf claiming invulnerability to weapons, but I can't rule that sort of thing out. Of course, the White version was the 2nd incarnation after the Grey died, so the 2nd body = weaker rule would need modification in any event. I grant that Sauron in general was weaker during the days of the Last Alliance due to the spreading-evil problem that also plagued Morgoth, but I can't think of a reason why he couldn't magic up some protection like the WK's if it's just a spell. The point where you lose people is where you start claiming that the WK has better mojo than Sauron (as Sauron's not an idiot and if his minions have "absolute protection" then he's sure as s*** going to figure out how to arrange it for himself).

1) It is in the his introductory chapter in Two towers i think, i only have the first book at the moment
2) In gandalfs case he was reborn as a new person, while Sauron's first body was destroyed and lost so he made a new one
3) The WK's spell is tied to his unique beings as a wraith i think, as only the undead have shown its use. Sauron doesn't seems to have the physical requirements to use it. Even if the spell wasn't absolute, Sauron still didn't use it, so it seems to be a wraith only sort of deal



Gotcha. :smallsmile:
No problem



(Witch King gets hobbit stabbed) "Only now do I realise the joys that a life of virtue would bring..."

Oh i should have become an accountant like my mother told me to


Nitpicking, but the dragons are old enough to carry riders whatever that counts for.
That could be anywhere between adolescent and up so yeah. Also, with so much dodging the dragons will be doing, teh riders better be careful about falling off.


More nitpicking. True they aren't an instant win button, but quality certainly helps a lot. I.E. The Blood War, where devils are regularly outnumbered 20 or more to one and win at least half the time.

To be fair, the Demons don't really use plans, just charge


So many nitpickings... WK et all would have to actually pierce their scales first which is tough to do. Don't know about fear effects affecting them, but they've got their own fear effects so...maybe?
Dragon scales aren't impenetrable, participially in the younger ones, and the morgul knives are at least somewhat sharp (the Mithril shirt being able to turn their blades is stated as something worthy of a compliment



It's the Chinese who really control the world secretly. And China is secretly controlled by the cockroaches.
I thought it was link's hat



The only really magical character that shows up was the wizard Babidi, who did things like mind control, magic shields, some weird attack that was pretty ineffectual...once he teleported a hostile waitress on top of a flag pole. Mostly he was a joke character.
ah ok


Okay. No more nitpicking for me.

hurray.



The advantages of being dead. Hey, how does WK fight? I was wondering since Soth tends to be honourable about it even in death, and will accept one on one challenges and stuff like that.

Well he also prefers duels as every time we have seen him fight he does so. however, if he can help it, he stacks it in his favor and plays dirty


I think so...but I don't have the exact stats either. I've checked the net and found at least three different set of stats, ranging from CR 11 to CR 20. Two had the Greater Dispelling trick.

hmmmm, does he use it properly


But what could be more entertaining than watching Voldemort and Hannibal Lector beating the paste out of each other?

Touche




Yeah, true. No matter who killed who when and how, Soth can apparently punch out WK.

and that is all we care about


Should we assume that the Black Ships have already landed their warriors for this battle or are on their way?
I think everybody is together, with the troops the black Ship was taking on the ground, but their crews still in the ships


Come to think of it, what's the battleground like?
Yeah, i'd like to know as well


The Citadel is part of the original forces. It's like a weapon that the army mans. And it was used during the War of the lance too, so the Blue Wing has had it for a while.

only one, ok


Oh, right. The fiery mountain thing.
yep



Greens make sense since the Green Wing merged with the Blue Wing, but I guess some blacks just signed up.
Dragon requirement for the good of evil is an interesting thought right there



from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

You can say? With what justification? the Wk doesn't come fron D&D i remind you, he doesn't follow that set of rules. You don't have any backing other than your own words Heh :smallamused:... So your saying that because the WK is not from D&D this would not affect him? Is that not what you were critizing Matar for? *cough* hypocrite *cough*:smallannoyed:


1) Its design, particularly the handle and the way it is weighted is the problem
2) Yes yes, it is a power sword, however so is glaimring which can't hurt the WK ether
3) I already said this, its origin is unknown, don't claim it was made by demons as if taht was a fact
4) Sign, please back this stuff up. The magical weapon that pieced his shield also broke, and Aragorn said that any weapon that hit him would have broken
5) It also said that such a weapon was what was needed to break the shield, with no exceptions mentioned 1) It acts well enough as a sword. It is also cool looking... pun intended.:smallamused:
2)But Glaimring's origins are known to be elves. Frostmourne is said to have been forged by DEMONS. Educate yourself http://www.wowwiki.com/Demon (here)
3)Its origin is unknown, but it is a good bet it was made by the Demons. Kil'Jaeden placed Nerzhuls soul in it, the demons had it beforehand. Any of this making sense?
4) *sigh* THIS... IS... IN... LOTRs... stop mixing every other fantasy setting for Middle Earth.
5) No exception worth mentioning sounds more like it.


Also ballista. Easier to aim, easier to reload, harder to avoid. Ummm... Does the WK even have ballistas? And they're actually not meant to fire at flying units, making it all the more harder to target


1) Against males. The prophecy. We never use this in vs. threads anymore, not worth the argument
2) The fact he is a wraith, like all of the other Nazgul. In order to harm the nazgul you need to be able to pull something impressive off, like Glorfindel did. I think he could have harmed or killed the lesser nazgul with his powers
3) The whole spell of protection. This is unique to him. Hmmmmm, that is an interesting thing to think about 1st one is nullified. Prophecy doesn't mean protection, just what will happen.


No. Using non canonical information, or correction, knowingly using non cannon information is in fact cheating. If i claim that the Wk can read minds, then i am in fact cheating. If i claim that the LK has an ability to mentally control all dragons and can over come anyone's magic, i am cheating. And if i ignore cannon evidence simply because it suits me, i am ether cheating, or i am using a flawed argument. Whatever you say... *cough* Drama king *cough*. By the way, that statement hardly acts as a proper counter to Bago's point. I too am tired of how you overact to such matters. :smallannoyed:


1) You do recall however, that the orcs moral, at least when the WK is alive doesn’t matter. They are so devoted to him, that if told them too, they would all fall on their swords according to the books.
2) Ah you forget, Barrow Wights, lesser wraiths. Also Soth only has skeletonal knights, not Death knights. Skeletonal Knights, as shown in the book, are smarter, tougher skeletons, but not super
3) He only can raise a small amount. In his castle or when facing adventures, a few dozen skeletons are nasty, but not when in an army. These are zombies and normal skeltons by the way
4) 4) see 2)
5) the WK didn’t have that many, I was counting his forces at Agmar (three giant armies, plus defensive forces) but the loss at Minas Tirith was a nasty battle, but here is the run down on why he lost
A) Gandalf was there. The defenders weren’t even suppose to be able to fight back, the WK’s fear effect was so great, but Gandalf was able to let the men react to the numbers and use their massively defensible seven level fortress to their advantage, inflicting more casualties then normally expected, along with gandalf’s aid. Gandalf also commanded the city garrison, so people were acting more competent then when Denethor was in charge
B) The Riders of Rohan showed up unrepentantly. While the WK bet they were going to show up, he sent a large amount of his force (something above 1,200 orcs) to block the only known road into the field. These guys never saw combat, and thus never joined the fighting. The riders however did show up, because of the secret pass through the Woses forest, where they crashed into the orcs right flank directly (in the movie they didn’t make a big speech, but instead quickly smashed into them) causing lots of chaos. The woses themselves were said to be hunting orcs and inflicting damage on the orcs as well
C) The death of the Hardadrim king,
D) The Death of the WK himself, massive moral problems, with fighting going on both at the gate, and in the field. The Prince, and Eomer were able to combine their forces and attack directly, being trapped on a hill near the ruined city. However, according to the book, the battle would have still been lost, had not
E) The Black Ships came. Now the entire navy was destroyed by the Army of the Dead, and all of the lands south of the White City were suppose to be taken over. However instead, all of these ships were filled with the warriors of the south, plus more who came up from the south directly, along with Aragon and his grey Company (I think they were about 50, both Rangers of the North and Elves, along with Legolas and Gimli). The slaves upon those ships joined the battle as well, along with the nifftyness of having ships so even on their own that would be a nasty army
F) It is made worst for the Forces of Mordor because this army was at first accepted as friends, and so this army was already directly behind them and in their mist when Aragorn led the attack, with the Banner of gondor (a scary moral thing). With a large army attacking with surprise, in their ranks, with the sword that was broken and the king returned, directly attacking them from behind (never mind that they were suppose to be friends) there are huge moral issues, made worst by the fact that the Riders and the forces of gondor are doing a renewed charge while they are still startled. Even then, the forces are said to still be to large, when
G) Sauron’s magic is dispelled, and the sun shines down. The orcs and trolls and the cross breeds are now usless, and the good guys get a huge moral boast. Even then, the evil men put up a good fight and the battle goes on for another day, but the forces of mordor eventually break and run, where they are more easily killed
So numbers did play a role, just it failed in the end. However, Mordor as suppose to have enough forces to dwarf the Wk's army. 1) All the same, the WK can only be in so many places, and his absence in one part of the field will likely break apart the orcs there. The Wk can only be in so many places.
2) Different type of undead. I believe Soth has more guys than that... you also exclude banshees.
3) True... but his fortress is mentioned to be flying... how can the WK get there? And don't use fel beasts, because the dragons can fly around and get those Ring Wraiths to the ground quickly.
5) All the more proof... Numbers... do... not... win.

Question. The more and more I think about it, the more I come to puzzle with the WK's spell. It seems more natural than a simple protection spell casted around one self. It seems to come naturally, not from magic words or a scroll. It seems more passive than an actual magic spell. Does it not fall under natural protection, or am I just babbling? Please set this protection thing straight.

Heres a proposal for the battle ground.
Soth's flying Fortress - Soth's old castle - Osgiliath - Minas Morgul
Between each place is a small open field. Sound good?

And as for overall siege warfare and campaign... As the Nazgul were capable of doing during the Minas Tirith siege in the movie, any normal dragon could do. Nazgul can also count Felbeasts as useless, since if the heads are bitten off, they're grounded. The Dragons can comb the Wk's forces with breats off fire. And... well... Soth has a flying fortress... and those tend to be hard to get in, even using the Warhammer orcs siege method... launching themselves onto the wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwkSBymUl-8
Its the first thing they do. Just pointing this stuff out for the campaign.
And on the side, I've seen that pally twice in Warhammer movies, how many times does he need to be bashed into a pulp?

Oh, and to correct something.

The second one killed herself Looking this up, I've seen that Soth didn't kill her, only denied his son life. However, if he delivered the bloody artifact to the priest-king, her death might have been prevented. So he did cause her death in a way(And thus he would be met with the same disappointment as Belkar).


"Only now do I realise the joys that a life of virtue would bring..." "I gave up a promising career as a magical food and drink vendor". Of course, that would only be given if he was a warcraft mage. :smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

Heh :smallamused:... So your saying that because the WK is not from D&D this would not affect him? Is that not what you were critizing Matar for? *cough* hypocrite *cough*:smallannoyed:

Don't do the hypocrite thing. It gets old, and at least justify it



POWER!
Alright, can I just say ont he subject of power itself, no matter what kind of protection you usually have, it can be over come by brute force most of the time or by superoir sources of power. Otherise, spell resistance wouldn't work, flamestrike wouldn't penetrate fire immunity (It does, just like abyssal flames bypasses such things because its part DIVINE, look it up if you don't believe me).
The D&D spells will still effect teh WK, however as the WK's spells is not of D&D origin it is not held to the D&D rules of how spells work. Different


1) It acts well enough as a sword. It is also cool looking... pun intended.:smallamused:
2)But Glaimring's origins are known to be elves. Frostmourne is said to have been forged by DEMONS. Educate yourself http://www.wowwiki.com/Demon (here)
3)Its origin is unknown, but it is a good bet it was made by the Demons. Kil'Jaeden placed Nerzhuls soul in it, the demons had it beforehand. Any of this making sense?
4) *sigh* THIS... IS... IN... LOTRs... stop mixing every other fantasy setting for Middle Earth.
5) No exception worth mentioning sounds more like it.

1)
2a) Ok, why do i have to do this again, Frostmourns origin is unknown. Unconfirmed. Still a mystery. We don't know where it came from. The Wiki article is showed you earlier asserts that. We don't know. So stop claiming that like it is truth, it hasn't been confirmed, and official sources says it isn't known yet
in your words, education your self (http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne#Origin). It is strongly suspected to be made by
2B) Origin isn't relevant in this case. Power is what is relevant. Demons have made plenty of stuff, and that doesn't get them any better except for being unholy and/or fel. Unless i missed something on the Wow description of Demonic powers, i don't think they have a power that over comes magical shields and what not. The origin of the weapon doesn't matter compared to its actual effects, unless the origin grants it an effect (like Demonic weapons being unholy.......and thus not very useful anyways but hey)
3) And yet it is still a theory. A possible one, but not a confirmed one.
4) So? What qualities apart from origin does Frostmourn have that could hurt him. Actually it has the ability to make incorporeal things corporal, which is something that would logically make the WK easier to damage. However apart from that, it has nothing. Ok, better example, Seph's magic sword from Final Fantasy, why could it hurt him. It doesn't have any special quality needed, it is just another weapon. The fact it was made in the world of FFVII doesn't grant it special powers needed. Excalibur couldn't do it, at least from the legend i'm aware of (i haven't ready that many versions of the story actually) but it doesn't have any of the requirements. If non of its powers have the needed requirements to harm him, why should it harm him other than "Because i want it to"
5) This is bloody Tolkien. He loves normally pointless details. If there was an exception, he would have mentioned it, that is the assumption. If you can find a passage in one of his writings that prove me wrong, something showing a nazgul being directly harmed by another blade, then i will be happy to concede the point.


Ummm... Does the WK even have ballistas? And they're actually not meant to fire at flying units, making it all the more harder to target
He has a mix of siege machinery, i don't know if they go into detal. Considering the time period, it would make sense, but i actually don't know
They aren't meant to but they can hit better than a catapult


1st one is nullified. Prophecy doesn't mean protection, just what will happen.
I know, i said that



Whatever you say... *cough* Drama king *cough*. By the way, that statement hardly acts as a proper counter to Bago's point. I too am tired of how you overact to such matters. :smallannoyed:

Insulting me doesn't make a point any more solid i remind you. Anyways, on the subject, when you manipulate cannon simply because it is advantageous to you, that is out right dishonorable. If i say "Well this sword can hurt the WK, because i say so" am using an honest argument. If i say "well Frostmourn in fact has the power to hurt wraiths as shown in the description, so actually it could hurt him, hahahahahaha" that is a valid argument using cannonical information



1) All the same, the WK can only be in so many places, and his absence in one part of the field will likely break apart the orcs there. The Wk can only be in so many places.
2) Different type of undead. I believe Soth has more guys than that... you also exclude banshees.
3) True... but his fortress is mentioned to be flying... how can the WK get there? And don't use fel beasts, because the dragons can fly around and get those Ring Wraiths to the ground quickly.
5) All the more proof... Numbers... do... not... win.

1) Well he wasn't everywhere on the Fields and they didn't break. As long as he is alive, he is fine. Unless this is a large scale war over a country, in which case advantage Wk, because he can corrupt his foes and breed more orcs
2) He only has 12 Banshees i think, and that doesn't make a huge difference. Nasty yes, but barrow wights can handle them
3) Take out dragons first one by one, then get into the fortress, which moves slowly. Or kill everyone who comes out and use siege machinery. Might miss 90% of the time, but hey, you not going to run short of rocks any time soon. Maybe troll rock throwers can do the job if it goes close enough to the ground
5) we have a few thousand years of miltary history that disagrees. Also i think you miss the point of my post, numbers do make a difference. the Wk only lost after a series of Deus Ex machina and the enemy having a super defensible fortress and even then it was a hard fight



Question. The more and more I think about it, the more I come to puzzle with the WK's spell. It seems more natural than a simple protection spell casted around one self. It seems to come naturally, not from magic words or a scroll. It seems more passive than an actual magic spell. Does it not fall under natural protection, or am I just babbling? Please set this protection thing straight.
Well, we know that
1) it is limited to the nazgul at least
2) It is a spell, at least according to the passage.
Now personally i think it is a natural nazgul only spell that they cast on themselves. It is some sort of spell, yeah i know it is confusion


Heres a proposal for the battle ground.
Soth's flying Fortress - Soth's old castle - Osgiliath - Minas Morgul
Between each place is a small open field. Sound good?
Scratch Osgiliath, insert Agmar, and we are good



And as for overall siege warfare and campaign... As the Nazgul were capable of doing during the Minas Tirith siege in the movie, any normal dragon could do. Nazgul can also count Felbeasts as useless, since if the heads are bitten off, they're grounded. The Dragons can comb the Wk's forces with breats off fire. And... well... Soth has a flying fortress... and those tend to be hard to get in, even using the Warhammer orcs siege method... launching themselves onto the wall.

Actually the crippling fear and depression from the weakened WK along was enough to literally keep the defenders of the city from shooting their arrows or reacting in any way, until Gandalf shows up to help. The Fel beasts aren't push overs, and Dragons aren't immune to Nazgul effects




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwkSBymUl-8
Its the first thing they do. Just pointing this stuff out for the campaign.
And on the side, I've seen that pally twice in Warhammer movies, how many times does he need to be bashed into a pulp?
its warhammer, the fans seems to take it more seriously than the writers
Oh, and to correct something.

Looking this up, I've seen that Soth didn't kill her, only denied his son life. However, if he delivered the bloody artifact to the priest-king, her death might have been prevented. So he did cause her death in a way(And thus he would be met with the same disappointment as Belkar).

you get the idea



"I gave up a promising career as a magical food and drink vendor". Of course, that would only be given if he was a warcraft mage. :smallwink:
He'd be a rap artist in D20 modern
from
EE

[Tyrant]

4) *sigh* THIS... IS... IN... LOTRs... stop mixing every other fantasy setting for Middle Earth.
So then Frostmourne won't be able to bypass divine defenses, steal souls, or hit incorporeal creatures when used on someone not of the WoW universe? I mean, they aren't bound by the WoW rules like people keep trying to hammer home about the LotR characters interactions with outside powers. In fact, by this logic, it would also become destructible the moment it went beyond the WoW universe and simply be a large, sharp, piece of metallic junk. That is the flip side of this line of thinking and I am amazed it is so hard to get this point across.


Ummm... Does the WK even have ballistas? And they're actually not meant to fire at flying units, making it all the more harder to target

For whatever it is worth (probably not much), unless I am mistaken the Uruk Hai had ballistas at Helm's Deep in the movie. If we are using anything from the movies, then it stands to reason that these weapons would be available to Sauron. Having said that, given the nature of the city they were assaulting with it's massively high walls and that the ballistas at Helm's Deep were primarily being used to carry the ropes for the large ladders, I would personally consider in unlikely they were brought and definately not in any large numbers. Especially when considering that they brought actual seige towers to overcome the walls and didn't appear to be using ladders. And I agree on them not being meant to hit flying targets. They would stand a better chance than catapults, but neither stands a huge chance. They could possibly hit the flying citadel. Of course, it is manned by black mages who can presumably protect it (and act offensively).

[EvilElitest]

So then Frostmourne won't be able to bypass divine defenses, steal souls, or hit incorporeal creatures when used on someone not of the WoW universe? I mean, they aren't bound by the WoW rules like people keep trying to hammer home about the LotR characters interactions with outside powers. In fact, by this logic, it would also become destructible the moment it went beyond the WoW universe and simply be a large, sharp, piece of metallic junk. That is the flip side of this line of thinking and I am amazed it is so hard to get this point across.




Thank you, i've been trying to get this across for a while now, thanks a lot

Actually, i don't think Soth's greatest asset is his dragons it is the mages. we all know broken D&D mages

from
EE

[Tyrant]

Thank you, i've been trying to get this across for a while now, thanks a lot

Actually, i don't think Soth's greatest asset is his dragons it is the mages. we all know broken D&D mages

from
EE

As far as the mages, they would be a big asset. They are black robed Dragonlance mages who aren't Raistlin, however. So there are limitations and they probably aren't as broken as your typical D&D mage. If I remember correctly from that part of the book, they can set the Citadel on something similar to auto pilot. That will be helpful as that is one (or more) less people that are occupied with flying the thing and concentrating on killing. I honestly don't remember if it took a mage to fly it. I know it is their power keeping it up (or at least raising it and enchanting it in the first place) I don't think it did because Tas flew it as I recall. If they had enough Black Mages and could pull off something on that scale, uprooting Minis Tirith (or allying with Sauron and uprooting Barah Dur, though he may be more interested in scrying abilities to find The Ring) would give them complete dominance over ME. Orthanc could be used as a WMD against Rivendell or something.

If the WK had a Kender or two that he didn't just randomly murder they could be quite useful if they were thrown into the citadel. The Kender are probably in the fantasy Geneva Convention under cruel and unusual torture for the heroes (and occasionally villains).

[Steven the Lich]

Don't do the hypocrite thing. It gets old, and at least justify it Didn't I point out that you were using an argument similar to what you were criticizing Matar for?


2a) Ok, why do i have to do this again, Frostmourns origin is unknown. Unconfirmed. Still a mystery. We don't know where it came from. The Wiki article is showed you earlier asserts that. We don't know. So stop claiming that like it is truth, it hasn't been confirmed, and official sources says it isn't known yet But demons are a exremely likely source. Whether it is not officially known yet, we can conclude that much.


2B) Origin isn't relevant in this case. I must respectfully disagree. Demons are chaotic, and it is a good bet that they are the makers of Frostmourne. I am willing to accept demons as the official creators of frostmourne, even if the exact origins are unknown. Care to put forth a feasible theory on who made it?


4) So? What qualities apart from origin does Frostmourn have that could hurt him. sigh* You seem to be unaware of the point. Aragorn said every blade that strikes the WK would break... but when you take the WK out of LotRs, new possiblilities need to be considered. I'm not saying that a normal sword in warcraft can just penetrate it, but what about Frostmourne, which is of a power level no weapon in LotRs can reach (wraith killing quality aside). The twin blades of Azzinoth? As far as I can realize, LotR magic weapons at the max reach the normal magic weapon in Warcraft. This said, you can't say these weapons are incapable of leaving a dent and then leaving it at that.


He has a mix of siege machinery, i don't know if they go into detal. Considering the time period, it would make sense, but i actually don't know
They aren't meant to but they can hit better than a catapult So he loves pointless detail, but he never mentions a ballista?


Insulting me doesn't make a point any more solid i remind you. I know, but you seem to be overlooking what Bago was attempting to tell you. You honestly believe that you didn't overreact to Matar when he was just telling you to debate by reaching common ground with people. You dramatically retaliated... not in a good way. I say you did overreact, and that what irks me.


1) Well he wasn't everywhere on the Fields and they didn't break. As long as he is alive, he is fine. Unless this is a large scale war over a country, in which case advantage Wk, because he can corrupt his foes and breed more orcs
2) He only has 12 Banshees i think, and that doesn't make a huge difference. Nasty yes, but barrow wights can handle them
3) Take out dragons first one by one, then get into the fortress, which moves slowly. Or kill everyone who comes out and use siege machinery. Might miss 90% of the time, but hey, you not going to run short of rocks any time soon. Maybe troll rock throwers can do the job if it goes close enough to the ground
5) we have a few thousand years of miltary history that disagrees. Also i think you miss the point of my post, numbers do make a difference. the Wk only lost after a series of Deus Ex machina and the enemy having a super defensible fortress and even then it was a hard fight 1) Gondorians didn't have undead nor dragons, not even half dragons.
2) Maybe so.
3) You act like grounding a dragon was an easy objective. Dragons need only to bite off the fell beast's heads before the Nazgul are sent to the ground. Siege engines would be easy pickings as well.
5) But here we have a flying fortress, which will be all the more difficult to penetrate. Can the WK bring down a fortress once all his siege engines are destroyed? And with an army of dragons, a simple tactic would be to comb the fields with fire breath. If we used 50 dragons in one strike, 9 Nazgul would have a hard time. Remember that arrows would be deflected by the scales. Tough to aim a catapult at them too.


Scratch Osgiliath, insert Agmar, and we are good Morgoths old fortress? Or Angmar as in the WK's fortress? And why? Osgiliath seems to fit more, since Soth's old castle is in ruins now (it was burnt to the ground after all). Also, Osgiliath is actually close to Minas Morgul.


Actually the crippling fear and depression from the weakened WK along was enough to literally keep the defenders of the city from shooting their arrows or reacting in any way, until Gandalf shows up to help. The Fel beasts aren't push overs, and Dragons aren't immune to Nazgul effects But dragons do not use swords or bows, they use their teeth and breath. They don't need to strike at the nazgul directly, they just need to kill the mounts and get them to the ground quickly. And the fell beasts seem easy to kill, because as I recall, Eowyn lopped off the head of the WK's fell beast. That said, a vicious bite on the neck would be able to finish the job. I can honestly say that D&D dragons are stronger than fell beasts, and tougher to bring down because they have hard scales.


So then Frostmourne won't be able to bypass divine defenses, steal souls, or hit incorporeal creatures when used on someone not of the WoW universe? I mean, they aren't bound by the WoW rules like people keep trying to hammer home about the LotR characters interactions with outside powers. In fact, by this logic, it would also become destructible the moment it went beyond the WoW universe and simply be a large, sharp, piece of metallic junk. That is the flip side of this line of thinking and I am amazed it is so hard to get this point across. Look at how I responded to EE earlier in this post, you should find it.


For whatever it is worth (probably not much), unless I am mistaken the Uruk Hai had ballistas at Helm's Deep in the movie. It should be noted that the uruk hai at Helms Deep were under the command of Saruman, not the WK. And if we are using the movie, then there was not a single ballista in the Morgul Army.

And heres another thing to consider. The WK and the nazgul are the only flying guys on the field for their side, leaving them the only guys who can get in the flaying fortress. The Nazgul alone cannot take a citadel, no matter how powerful they are. Nine people cannot keep it flying either, so if they do succeed in taking over, and Soth isn't there, they're screwed. Not because he could keep it up, but because that would leave him the win. Thats presuming if the fortress needs someone to keep it flying.

[Tyrant]

Look at how I responded to EE earlier in this post, you should find it.
Easy to find. It doesn't address the point at all. If anything you help my cause by noting that once things are taken beyond their own universes new possibilites need to be considered, like them not working as you keep championing. You really don't see that this argument cuts both ways do you? ZOMG powerful is only ZOMG powerful in that world, by your own terms. Yet when it comes to WoW, these things miraculously retain all their properties even though those they face apparently lose their powers instantly. Why, that's not a one sided view in the least. Any argument you can devise for Frostmourne (and again, uber powerful isn't an argument as it assumes that we can come up with a common baseline and some people seem hell bent against that idea with their very obvious favoritism when "deciding" what works and what doesn't) working like it does in WoW can be applied to the WK and can be picked apart in the same manner you are proposing.

I would understand if your argument was against a comment like "Steve is the strongest guy in all of creation" and Steve is in fact the strongest guy on his world, but is clearly not the strongest anywhere. That is an absolute that is obviously not true or only applies there because it can be disproven. Saying that anything that hits object X will be destroyed is universal (again, reality manipulation/magic aside). You are championing Frostmourne's powers as absolute with absolutely no backing while discarding the absolutes of the WK for no good reason. That isn't how common ground is found and it isn't how to debate something. There is nothing in the argument for Frostmourne that disproves the WK's ability to destroy all weapons that hit him beyond "ZOMG power beyond 9000!!!!!" which is a worthless argument in this case.


It should be noted that the uruk hai at Helms Deep were under the command of Saruman, not the WK. And if we are using the movie, then there was not a single ballista in the Morgul Army.

I believe I made the distinction saying that it stands to reason that if they had them then Sauron would as well. It would be pointless to say that if I believed Sauron had them for sure. I believe that it is a fair assumption given his far greater experience and knowledge of battle when compared to Saruman. At any rate, I didn't see any in RotK either and I was merely making an observation. I explained why they wouldn't be there even if he did have them. No point bringing them when they would be mostly useless, but that doesn't rule out him actually having some somewhere (just not in this battle).


And heres another thing to consider. The WK and the nazgul are the only flying guys on the field for their side, leaving them the only guys who can get in the flaying fortress. The Nazgul alone cannot take a citadel, no matter how powerful they are. Nine people cannot keep it flying either, so if they do succeed in taking over, and Soth isn't there, they're screwed. Not because he could keep it up, but because that would leave him the win. Thats presuming if the fortress needs someone to keep it flying.
I honestly think they would be blown out of the sky by the dragons, draconians, or black mages before they got close to it. The blues shoot lightning bolts, the blacks spray acid, and the greens breath toxic gas. Those things may not effect the Nazgul, but they should kill the Fell Beasts. If not, there is always teeth and claws. Or, send in the type of Draconians that can fly and attack en masse. Or the magic using ones and the black mages can start pumping out the mystical beatdown.

[Matar]

Although I still say your points about the WitchKings sheild do -not- work, it's past that anyways. We've already come to the conclusion that Sloth would one One-on-One anyways.

However, im going to have to side on the LoTR side for the Army. Mainly because I don't think it's fair to leave Sauron out of the equation. Sauron can see anything, correct? Can see far into the battlefeild before hand, and see what units they have? Where they are set up? I would assume this would leave the Witch-King with a huge tactics advantage.

See, while the Witch-King never had Sauron fight with him, Sauron would have certainly cheaker out the posistion and battlefeild before hand, right? He would be an idiot not to.

And let's not forgest the Witch-Kings fear. Soth's army isn't all Dragons right? Or all undead? Or all mindless? The fear effect would be quite powerful then on those troops. Fighitng troops who are scared and unorganized would make a huge diffrence.

[Bago!!!]

Again, one thing at a time.

DIVINE ARMOR!
1. The Issue, as far as I can see, is that the WK's 'absolute shield' seems to always counter every thing thrown at it aside fromt he slight little blade of magic. Never in LOTR is it mentioned that another magic weapon could not break through, or so I believe. If I am wrong, please give me a quote.
2. Perhaps, but heres a little something. Where is it said that whatever protects the WK is a spell? Could it not be its own natural protection from simply being a immensly powerful wraith?

Power!
On what justification? Common sense, being an american citizen, being a person in general... the list goes on.
Superman vs. Doomsday seems to say alot about this. Not following? Lets try a real life method. Lets say theres this wall of stone. It won't break if I punch at it, nor will it break if a wind blows at it. But then you bring in the wrecking ball..... See where I am going with this? Whether D&D rules work on the WK or not is beside the point, the point is that defense can be overcome by power, all that it takes is either a good amount of it or a well placed strike. You learn that by punching a wooden board with your own fist in kempo. So yeah, I think I have something more than just my own words. Am I wrong that defenses can't be destroyed with power of any kind?

CANNON!
If that is so, then why bring in the prophecy? That is what the shield basically is from my understanding. Plot device. And if I may add, absolution and cannon makes little sense in vs. thread. Reason why I think so? I dunno, maybe this'll explain a little bit. Aragon (who I never thought to be the one to understand all the rules and magic....) says that any other blade would have broken on the WK's shield. Was he talking about every blade in every world? No, he was talking about every blade in his world. HIS world. Now this can be taken in two ways. YOu can either say that this rule, given by someone who can't use magic himself and is but a ranger/king, is a absolute rule and must be taken serouisly as such. Or you can believe that he was referring to all the weapons in his own world. I think the later seems more reasonable.

ARMY!
1. I think its a safe bet that most of the dragons are Young, and a young black dragon is a CR 9 all on his own. Which means damage reduction, frightful presence, good breath weapons, etc.
Their powers are not so limiting, since the breath weapon can be used ALOT on many targets at once, their frightful presence is huge in effect, their saves are all good, their flyspeed is pretty quick, and each one is not only strong, but are smart. Hit points are high, AC is high, attacks usually hit... need I say more?
2. I am not saying dragons are an instant win button. I am saying that an army of dragons with their own foot soldiers can take a LARGE army quite well. Every catapult and balista lost is usually lost can't be fixed over night. Plus, a dragon can endure alot, espicially with DR on every nonmagical attack, such as almost every arrow, and spear and such.
3. Your right. My bad, but their fortitude certainly rocks! Poisen? If its poisen that is produced in large numbers then I am pretty sure its not gonna affect these dragons too badly.
4. Black breath? Saves should cover that. Most are not gonna be that badly affected.
5. Balistas, while easier to reload and easier to aim, were never designed against flying units, and can only aim up and down (rather slowly!), unless you take the time and effort to move the balista around. As for the being occupied, meh. Most of the arrows won't pierce them, the Nazgul are only 9 in total and would quickly get blasted out of the air, the winged beasts are panzies, and anyone that gets close enough to stab the dragon with a morgul blade would most likely get brought down before they land the blow. The trolls, I can see as a slight problem, one that would taken rather quickly. Rocks of fire infused with what? Where is that mentioned? I want a page! Please?

Re: Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

Quote:


Quote:
ARMY!
Army wise, dragons hold a great advantage, undead hold a gread advantage (damage reduction and no critical hits) for the hold no fear, and the power that every dragon possess as a creature made of magic is just plain awesome. Every dragon can cast its fair share of spells and can breath a cone of cold, can move faster than most ground units, can't be harmed to much, can send foes running away crying to their mommies and can sustain a great deal of damage. They have quality where the WK has quantity. I say that quality is better than quantity. Its like the Machine gun in WWI against the constant wave of troops on either side. Each dragon is like said machine gun in comparison to the orcs. Does that make any sense? Poisen against dragons? Their bodies would fight it off without any problem. And they are basically immune to fear, and some dragons are immune to cold. And their own magical protections should be enough against the black breath and such. Seige weapons for the WK? Dodge em and take em out. Not too hard, and it takes ALOT of effort to aim a catapult or trebuchet. Try aiming at a flying target, it isn't easy.

FROSTMOURNE & MAGICAL WEAPONS!
1) That design doesn't seem to mess up Arthas' skill to use the weapon, now does it? And how do you know of its weight? The Mats made for the weapon are everyday steel. I don't even know what they are. Unwieldy?
2) Your point?
3) Demons is a safe bet, and it would fill in many of the gaps, or so I believe. Whoever made it, they were really powerful, like IMMENSELY powerful.
4) Like I said before, Aragon was talking about the weapons in his world. And I find it odd that he knows this as a fact. I don't recall him as a user of magic.
5) Where does it say that? And perhaps there are no expcetions because that would ruin the whole story. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions, they just didn't make any hypothetical situations.

EPIC!
1. I believe you. :smallwink:
But I see them as powerful enough to not bypass or slide in but shatter the shield because epic weapons possess insane power, which aids them in every swing and every blow they deal.
2. If Aragon said that, I doubt him. He is a secondary source. Does he know of Gandalf's weapon, or maybe Orcrist? I dunno if he does, certainly doesn't mention that he does.

ABSOLUTE RULES!
Not saying that. Just saying that about absolute powers. The Eldars could probally pull that off against anyone they want, aside from beings of equal power. Then again, I know little of Lovecraft's Eldars so I can't really make perfect sense out of it without readign his books.

A) Explain how direct magical attacks evade it?
B) It could work.
C) No idea about that, so can't say too much about it.
D) Makes sense.
E) Alright.
F) Then he would be destroyed by a blast from frieza, or crushed by the foot of a man the size of how many galaxies?
Good points, but I believe there are more than just those things that can defeat his shield. Mentioned them so many times, need I say them again?

INTEGRITY!
Can you give me a quote on that?

MAGICAL LEVEL!
Magic power is measured by magical level. Simple to understand, yes?

DBZ!
1. So there for a magic sword could pull it off by that logic and not just a holy magic sword.
2. No, their bodies or physical manifestations would be destroyed because their rings wouldn't be able to survive it.

Tolkien's WORD!
No I don't. They are his word so they should be used as his word.

EXCEPTIONS!
Course he loves detail, like when Gandalf fell into darkness in the first book. I could just see Frodo crying as he fell. Oh wait! He didn't even mention that!

BITTER!
True. But thats not to say that no other blow could deal pain, just this one that dealt more pain than any other could have dealt.

SAURON & WK!
So its a natural protection from being undead?
Alright, but is Sauron out matched by his own lackey in terms of power?
I am using logical backing, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

CHEATING!
Then I think your either cheating or your using a flawed arguement. Everyone else, I think really believe in their logic, and I have yet to see anything to prove their logic inert.

TACTICS ON VS. THREADS!
Oink.

MONKS!
Right, forgot. But what about Outsiders? Could they not be affected by fear? Curses, alright, but fear?

ARMY SIZE!
Moooooo?

Alright.

Either he has Greater Dispelling at will or he has it 2 or 3 times a day and Dispell at will. One or the other.
So confusing!


I believe the second one was killed in the Cataclysm, he just chose not to help. Same thing as murder in my oppinion.

1. Okay
2. Alright, that makes some sense.
3. As it should be.

Campaign?
1. Frightful presence changes that. :smallbiggrin:
2. Skeletons are better than orcs in my book.
3. No idea
4. Read?
5. I agree with most of this.

Dunno what to say to that stuff for now.


WIll talk more lter! Late now, bored of typing, willy wonka on now, brain melting... Moo....

[Matar]

If you want to get Techincal, all it says is blade. So a hammer, Fist, spear, ect will all work fine against him.

-Edit

Hell, if you want to get even more technical. It said no blade can harm him, it says nothing about the force transfered from the blade though. Hit 'em hard enough and the blade may not cut him, but the force behind it will still hurt.

[Mr. Scaly]

Couple points on the army battle.

The dragons have a fearful presence too, much like WK's. So whether they're loyal to WK or not, the orcs and men of his army will be terrified. There are descriptions in the books of armies scattering before dragons so if the orcs even still want to fight they'll be greatly demoralised. Same goes for any mortal who gets near Soth...he made Tasslehoff himself wet himself in terror.

Not that it matters, but I remembered that the various dragonarmies employed a few wyvern riders for scouting and messengers. They wouldn't make a big impact on the army itself but they'd serve as advance scouts and some information for Soth's army.

I think the effectiveness of Soth's undead forces is being understated. It's stated time and again that their touch is death, that men fear them, and that they're devastatingly effective in battle. Heck, the whole Palanthian army couldn't stop them.

The flying citadel isn't an entire city. It's a fortress. And the spells that tore it from the ground were very powerful, so it would take a lot of effort to do it again, let alone to a city the size of Minas Tirith.

[Steven the Lich]

Easy to find. It doesn't address the point at all. If anything you help my cause by noting that once things are taken beyond their own universes new possibilites need to be considered, like them not working as you keep championing. You really don't see that this argument cuts both ways do you? ZOMG powerful is only ZOMG powerful in that world, by your own terms. Yet when it comes to WoW, these things miraculously retain all their properties even though those they face apparently lose their powers instantly. Why, that's not a one sided view in the least. Any argument you can devise for Frostmourne (and again, uber powerful isn't an argument as it assumes that we can come up with a common baseline and some people seem hell bent against that idea with their very obvious favoritism when "deciding" what works and what doesn't) working like it does in WoW can be applied to the WK and can be picked apart in the same manner you are proposing. My point has little appliance to actual weapons, I was not extinguishing the power of weapons transfered nor enlarging them. My point was the credibility of one authors words in the world of another author. IE, Aragorn said that all blades would break and such, you claim that no other weapon can penetrate the shield. Well, you can only use that as a absolute in the world it was meant for.
Point in case. No weapon, magical or no, in LotRs can penetrate the WK's shield except a holy anti-undead one. Now EE seems to apply this logic outside the world, which just doesn't work at all. Using his knowledge and word for word points, not even Sargeras' sword could cremate the dude, and his sword was described as the strongest sword in the whole setting of Warcraft. Of course, hey, that doesn't matter, it was only the sword of the grand demon lord of the Burning Legion, who is far more powerful than the WK and Sauron combined, so no big deal. Your accusation on me championing is poorly made, as it seems to directly differ with EEs belief that all items affect other worlds as they do their own.


I would understand if your argument was against a comment like "Steve is the strongest guy in all of creation" and Steve is in fact the strongest guy on his world, but is clearly not the strongest anywhere. That is an absolute that is obviously not true or only applies there because it can be disproven. Saying that anything that hits object X will be destroyed is universal (again, reality manipulation/magic aside). You are championing Frostmourne's powers as absolute with absolutely no backing while discarding the absolutes of the WK for no good reason. That isn't how common ground is found and it isn't how to debate something. There is nothing in the argument for Frostmourne that disproves the WK's ability to destroy all weapons that hit him beyond "ZOMG power beyond 9000!!!!!" which is a worthless argument in this case. You honestly don't pay attention to my arguments, do you? I have been backing up my points. For our topic of powerful weapons, Frostmourne. There is a high chance it was forged by demons, and they are the enemies of order and life officially in Warcraft. Frostmourne has chaotic energy, which allows it to bypass divine armor magical or natural, it is still armor of the deities! Technically, it even bypasses the invulnerability code due to that chaotic energy, which could very well be considered a ultimate spell. It serves as the extension of the LK's will as the ring does for Sauron. But this all means nothing without the wraith harming ability, does it?
Now what you and EE seem to be doing? You are championing the WK's shield, saying it is completely indestructable unless combated with holy magic. Even a freaking kamehameha (Or death ball or Spirit bomb) couldn't get through by EE's words, because it is not anti-undead, or doesn't have the specific qualities! He is taking the whole shield word for word against everything in the whole collection of fantasies and sci-fictions, only excluding magical attacks, and little else. THAT is championing. Yet you accuse me of it? Truly poor show.
You are insulting my integrity for a fault which you seem to share with EE, when I am actually attempting to back it up with agreeable evidence, which your side seems to toss aside as pointless words, while in the meantime you just use flawed logic and literal interpretation.
You have that much nerve, I'll give you that. :smallmad:
As for the point, you clearly cannot grasp it.
The WK's shields indestructability is not as absolute in Warcraft as it is in Middle Earth, holy weapons aside. That is the very short version of it, but with the density of some peoples heads, I may have to elaborate pointlessly on that.:smallannoyed:


I honestly think they would be blown out of the sky by the dragons, draconians, or black mages before they got close to it. The blues shoot lightning bolts, the blacks spray acid, and the greens breath toxic gas. Those things may not effect the Nazgul, but they should kill the Fell Beasts. If not, there is always teeth and claws. Or, send in the type of Draconians that can fly and attack en masse. Or the magic using ones and the black mages can start pumping out the mystical beatdown. We agree on that much. The balance tips more in the favor of Soth.


If you want to get Techincal, all it says is blade. So a hammer, Fist, spear, ect will all work fine against him. EE would argue against you on that point, but... touche. :smallamused:
Although with his determination, it may very well come down to bare fists.


The dragons have a fearful presence too, much like WK's. So whether they're loyal to WK or not, the orcs and men of his army will be terrified. There are descriptions in the books of armies scattering before dragons so if the orcs even still want to fight they'll be greatly demoralised. Same goes for any mortal who gets near Soth...he made Tasslehoff himself wet himself in terror.

Not that it matters, but I remembered that the various dragonarmies employed a few wyvern riders for scouting and messengers. They wouldn't make a big impact on the army itself but they'd serve as advance scouts and some information for Soth's army.

I think the effectiveness of Soth's undead forces is being understated. It's stated time and again that their touch is death, that men fear them, and that they're devastatingly effective in battle. Heck, the whole Palanthian army couldn't stop them.

The flying citadel isn't an entire city. It's a fortress. And the spells that tore it from the ground were very powerful, so it would take a lot of effort to do it again, let alone to a city the size of Minas Tirith. Now here we have a voice of reason. Mr. Scaly, I'd like to personally extend an invitation for the Cult of the Damned to you. Too bad we haven't formed it, so I can't...:smallfrown:

PS: At Tyrant.

There is nothing in the argument for Frostmourne that disproves the WK's ability to destroy all weapons that hit him beyond "ZOMG power beyond 9000!!!!!" which is a worthless argument in this case. Brute force against super man seemed pointless, but Doomsday pulled it off effectively.

[Innis Cabal]

Brute force against super man seemed pointless, but Doomsday pulled it off effectively.

Doomsday was also an awful villian, but the point still does remain...also, Super Man dosnt stay dead.

[EvilElitest]

Didn't I point out that you were using an argument similar to what you were criticizing Matar for?

no, i criticized Malar for condemning one absolute and yet supporting another without and basis other than "I want it to happen" which is blatant favoritism and dishonest manipulation of events to suit one's own purpose, oppose to actual canonical evidence. Now Mr. Scaly found a perfectly logical way for Soth to hurt the Wk, his first are proven to be able to hurt ghost, but simply saying "It happens" isn't fair, it is silly.
What i'm doing is saying that because the WK' spell isn't a D&D spell, so it shouldn't be treated like a D&D spell



But demons are a exremely likely source. Whether it is not officially known yet, we can conclude that much.

No, you can conclude that much, it doesn't prove anything. As it is unknown, and officially stated to be unknown by the makers of the game, we shouldn't use that has evidence. It is a theory, a valid and quite likely theory, but not one we can act upon as of yet. Focus on its powers, not its origin


I must respectfully disagree. Demons are chaotic, and it is a good bet that they are the makers of Frostmourne. I am willing to accept demons as the official creators of frostmourne, even if the exact origins are unknown. Care to put forth a feasible theory on who made it?

1) The old gods could have made it, it helps them after all.
2) When i say origin is irrelevant, i really mean that, how Frostmourn was made is totally irrelevant in this dicussions, it's physical powers are what matters, not how it was made.



sigh* You seem to be unaware of the point. Aragorn said every blade that strikes the WK would break... but when you take the WK out of LotRs, new possiblilities need to be considered. I'm not saying that a normal sword in warcraft can just penetrate it, but what about Frostmourne, which is of a power level no weapon in LotRs can reach (wraith killing quality aside). The twin blades of Azzinoth? As far as I can realize, LotR magic weapons at the max reach the normal magic weapon in Warcraft. This said, you can't say these weapons are incapable of leaving a dent and then leaving it at that.

1) I am totally aware that there is no point to speak of. The "Power level" of the weapon makes no difference, as "Power level" isn't what allowed the Barrow blade wasn't able to break the Spell of the WK because of some arbitrary power level or because it was "Powerful" it was able to break the shield because it had a specific enchantment needed to destroy the shield.
2) And why is it that WoW gets to have special powers outside of universes, but LOTRS does not. Favoritism some?


So he loves pointless detail, but he never mentions a ballista?
No, he mentions siege machinery. He does however go into page long rants about the names of things particular powers ect. Point remains, if the narration stats that no other weapon could do it, then Narzil couldn't do it.


I know, but you seem to be overlooking what Bago was attempting to tell you. You honestly believe that you didn't overreact to Matar when he was just telling you to debate by reaching common ground with people. You dramatically retaliated... not in a good way. I say you did overreact, and that what irks me.
When an argument relies ether on blatant favoritism or simple lack of clear thinking (as Tyrant proves) i think i am well justified in calling it out.


1) Gondorians didn't have undead nor dragons, not even half dragons.
2) Maybe so.
3) You act like grounding a dragon was an easy objective. Dragons need only to bite off the fell beast's heads before the Nazgul are sent to the ground. Siege engines would be easy pickings as well.
5) But here we have a flying fortress, which will be all the more difficult to penetrate. Can the WK bring down a fortress once all his siege engines are destroyed? And with an army of dragons, a simple tactic would be to comb the fields with fire breath. If we used 50 dragons in one strike, 9 Nazgul would have a hard time. Remember that arrows would be deflected by the scales. Tough to aim a catapult at them too.
1) So? The orcs are described as being totally and utterly loyal, ready to kill themselves on his command. As long as he is around, the orcs won't break. There aren't even a 100 dragons
3a) Fell Beasts are freaking fast, and aren't as small as you say. The Dragons in the Blue Army are young and not as powerful as they could be, and Fell beasts are really really fast (getting from the Black Gate to Mount Doom in a few mins).
3B) The Nazgul fear, despair, black Shadow, black breath, and morgul blades can do the job. Remember, the Nazgul can use niffty arrows with the black breath on it. THe dragons, and certainly their riders will be have a lot of problems,



Morgoths old fortress? Or Angmar as in the WK's fortress? And why? Osgiliath seems to fit more, since Soth's old castle is in ruins now (it was burnt to the ground after all). Also, Osgiliath is actually close to Minas Morgul.

Morgoth's fortress is Angband. Angmar was the WK's fortress and main land, and was his land. Osgiliath isn't a good options because
A) It is utterly in ruins, not a good defensible position, and as of such, of little actual use.
B) He only barely owned it, it was fully under his control only for a few days
C) It isn't really his. Angmar and Morgul were the WK's actual realms, but Osgiliath was only temporarily dominated city

Angmar is better because
A) It is actually his, he owned it and used it
B) We are counting his forces from the region, and as of such, we should count their native homeland
C) It is actually useful




But dragons do not use swords or bows, they use their teeth and breath. They don't need to strike at the nazgul directly, they just need to kill the mounts and get them to the ground quickly. And the fell beasts seem easy to kill, because as I recall, Eowyn lopped off the head of the WK's fell beast. That said, a vicious bite on the neck would be able to finish the job. I can honestly say that D&D dragons are stronger than fell beasts, and tougher to bring down because they have hard scales.
1) The point is they literally couldn't attack his army, despite the fact they were attacking their city, without Gandalf's aid they wouldn't have even fired back
2) In both cases those were heros. I don't deny that Fell beasts are mortal, but they are far from pushovers.
3) In any case, Fell Beasts aren't suppose to directly attack the Dragons (that would be moronic, they'd be slaughtered your right) There job is too support the Nazgul, who are far more dangerous and can Weaken and slay the Dragons themselves with their awesome powers.


Look at how I responded to EE earlier in this post, you should find it.

It should be noted that the uruk hai at Helms Deep were under the command of Saruman, not the WK. And if we are using the movie, then there was not a single ballista in the Morgul Army.

Tryant summed my words up quite nicely




And heres another thing to consider. The WK and the nazgul are the only flying guys on the field for their side, leaving them the only guys who can get in the flaying fortress. The Nazgul alone cannot take a citadel, no matter how powerful they are. Nine people cannot keep it flying either, so if they do succeed in taking over, and Soth isn't there, they're screwed. Not because he could keep it up, but because that would leave him the win. Thats presuming if the fortress needs someone to keep it flying.
The Citidel is slow moving and crumbersom. Its main purpose is to transport troops over the mountains and get them over harsh terrain, and act as a troop bomber. The Mordor Forces need to win the main battle, as the Cideal acts mostly as a transport, not a fighting weapon (mages aside). Remember, it took like 3 people to destroy the original. Once the Fortress is isolated, the Nazgul can use their fear, despair and black breath. Considering most of the troops, (who fly) will already have been dropped off in the main battle, and the mages would use up their spells, it actually isn't that hard. THe Fell Beasts can pick people off, and the Nazgul themselves are pretty nasty



Although I still say your points about the WitchKings sheild do -not- work, it's past that anyways. We've already come to the conclusion that Sloth would one One-on-One anyways.

Soth attacks with great sword, WK attacks with Mace and Flaming Sword. They fight, then Soth, being a better fighter, gets his first hit off. It is presumable that he has been hit by the Wk, and a few hits must have not gotten through his armor, but eventually the sword will make contact. Then suddenly, it breaks, and the Wk is fighting with a flaming sword and a mace, against a dude with his fists. Now Soth's spells might even the playing field, but he has disadvantage there. True Soth is a very good fighter, but he is going to have trouble taking on an armored foe with a flaming sword and a mace


However, im going to have to side on the LoTR side for the Army. Mainly because I don't think it's fair to leave Sauron out of the equation. Sauron can see anything, correct? Can see far into the battlefeild before hand, and see what units they have? Where they are set up? I would assume this would leave the Witch-King with a huge tactics advantage.

See, while the Witch-King never had Sauron fight with him, Sauron would have certainly cheaker out the posistion and battlefeild before hand, right? He would be an idiot not to.
You right, Sauron in every battle was the main organizer, teh WK was more of a field commander you might say. Sauron would not just scout out the area for him, he would often plan ahead and arrange things so he would have plenty of advantages, such as corrupting Denethor so he wouldn't be an effective leader under attack.
I see your point, but isn't Sauron over kill?



And let's not forgest the Witch-Kings fear. Soth's army isn't all Dragons right? Or all undead? Or all mindless? The fear effect would be quite powerful then on those troops. Fighitng troops who are scared and unorganized would make a huge diffrence.
Actually, most of the forces are ogres, goblins, humans and Dracionicans, all of whom are far from immune to fear. So your right, fear will make a huge difference, considering non of the enemy commanders will be ready for it.

Bago


Again, one thing at a time.

DIVINE ARMOR!
1. The Issue, as far as I can see, is that the WK's 'absolute shield' seems to always counter every thing thrown at it aside fromt he slight little blade of magic. Never in LOTR is it mentioned that another magic weapon could not break through, or so I believe. If I am wrong, please give me a quote.
2. Perhaps, but heres a little something. Where is it said that whatever protects the WK is a spell? Could it not be its own natural protection from simply being a immensly powerful wraith?

1) Actually, in the quote that was provided it says "no other blade" so actually, yeah. We already showed this quote
"No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
2) Yet again, the protection is a spell. The fact that he is invisible is the wraith thing. Frostmourns Chaos damage can get through the latter, the incorporeal thing the former but it needs both


oh some general powers of the Nazgul, quotes i found

"Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore." - Flight to the Ford, Fellowship of the Ring, p.227

MAKE SWORDS FLAME
"The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
"'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade." - The Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.103

SNOW AND ICE
"Lossoth, the Snow Men of Forchel ... they were afraid of the Witch-king, who (they said) could make frost or thaw at his will." - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322
Finally, i was looking for that one
SNOW AND ICE II
"But the snow men were uneasy; for they said they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: 'Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.'" - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322

Weather control man


"The drums rolled and rattled. With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands. It reached the Gate. It swung. A deep boom rumbled through the city like thunder running in the clouds. But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke.
"Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.
"Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell, it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground." - Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.102

IN DARKNESS AND LONELINESS
"In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at Westgate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him." - Aragorn, Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, p. 186

THE BLACK BREATH
"But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died." - Houses of Healing, Return of the King, p.136

BLACK SHADOW IN BREE & DEALINGS WITH FERNY
"[Merry] gasped: 'I have seen them, Frodo! I have seen them! Black Riders! ... Here. In the village. I stayed indoors for an hour. Then as you did not come back, I went out for a stroll. I had come back again and was standing just outside the light of the lamp looking at the stars. Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near: there was sort of a deeper shade among the shadows across the road, just beyond the edge of lamplight. It slid away at once into the dark without a sound. There was no horse. ... It seemed to make up off the road, eastward. ... I tried to follow. Of course, it vanished almost at once; but I went round the corner and on as far as the last house on the Road. ... I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow. Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over.Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I... I fell over.'
"'I found him, sir,' put in Nob. '...I went down to West-gate, and then back up towards South-gate. Just nigh Bill Ferny's house I thought I could see something in the Road. I couldn't swear to it, but it looked to me as if two men was stopping over something, lifting it. I gave a shout, but when I got to the spot there was no signs of them, and only Mr. Brandybuck lying by the roadside. He seemed to be asleep. 'I thought I had fallen into deep water,' he says to me, when I shook him. Very queer he was, and as soon as I had roused him, he got up and ran back here like a hare.'
"'I am afraid that's true,' said Merry, 'though I don't know what I said. I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me.'
"'I do,' said Strider. 'The Black Breath. The Riders must have left their horses outside, and asked back through the South-gate in secret. They will all know the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probably that Southerner was a spy as well." - Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, p.186

ALL BLADES PERISH
"Look!" he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. "This was the stroke of Frodo's sword," he said. "The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." - Aragorn, "Flight to the Ford," Fellowship of the Ring, p.201

BOWS AND ARROWS USELESS
LEGOLAS: The Winged Messenger! I shot at them with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?
GANDALF: One that you cannot slay with arrows. You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgûl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun.

THE EFFECTS OF THE MORGUL BLADE
"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand." - Gandalf, Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring
GANDALF: ...You were in the gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them and they could see you. - Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring


Power!
On what justification? Common sense, being an american citizen, being a person in general... the list goes on.
Just because something is powerful (like a plus 5 sword in D&D) doesn't mean it is always the best weapon for the job

Merry's barrow blade isn't a powerful weapon. It isn't like Narzil, Sting, or Glamring, it simply has a special power to hurt teh Wk. Raw power isn't what is needed


Superman vs. Doomsday seems to say alot about this. Not following? Lets try a real life method. Lets say theres this wall of stone. It won't break if I punch at it, nor will it break if a wind blows at it. But then you bring in the wrecking ball..... See where I am going with this? Whether D&D rules work on the WK or not is beside the point, the point is that defense can be overcome by power, all that it takes is either a good amount of it or a well placed strike. You learn that by punching a wooden board with your own fist in kempo. So yeah, I think I have something more than just my own words. Am I wrong that defenses can't be destroyed with power of any kind?

Your thinking too simply. your imagining his shield like some sort of force field, that needs a certain amount of force to over come. Instead it is more like a shield that needs a specific substance to get through it


CANNON!
If that is so, then why bring in the prophecy? That is what the shield basically is from my understanding. Plot device. And if I may add, absolution and cannon makes little sense in vs. thread. Reason why I think so? I dunno, maybe this'll explain a little bit. Aragon (who I never thought to be the one to understand all the rules and magic....) says that any other blade would have broken on the WK's shield. Was he talking about every blade in every world? No, he was talking about every blade in his world. HIS world. Now this can be taken in two ways. YOu can either say that this rule, given by someone who can't use magic himself and is but a ranger/king, is a absolute rule and must be taken serouisly as such. Or you can believe that he was referring to all the weapons in his own world. I think the later seems more reasonable.

The prophecy and the shield are two entirely different thigns. The prophecy we don't use, because, well, it is a prophecy. Aragorn was a Dundain lord, who are well versed in all types of lore, so he would understand magic, and is stated to be wise even by Gandalf's standards

Now the weapon that was able to hurt them had special abilities unique to it, rather than raw power, so raw power certainly doesn't work here


ARMY!
1. I think its a safe bet that most of the dragons are Young, and a young black dragon is a CR 9 all on his own. Which means damage reduction, frightful presence, good breath weapons, etc.
Their powers are not so limiting, since the breath weapon can be used ALOT on many targets at once, their frightful presence is huge in effect, their saves are all good, their flyspeed is pretty quick, and each one is not only strong, but are smart. Hit points are high, AC is high, attacks usually hit... need I say more?
Most of them are blue, only 42, so very few greens and blacks.
They are not immune to any of the Nazgul's powers (remember how D&D wizards can defeat dragons) and while they will cause damage, they aren't even a hundred of them. Orc Arrows are poisoned, and while most won't hit, only a few dozen are needed per dragon and there are plenty of orcs to spare. The nazguls only need to pull off one black breath covered arrow to bring one down. And while catapult won't likely hit them, they are a hinderence to be sure



2. I am not saying dragons are an instant win button. I am saying that an army of dragons with their own foot soldiers can take a LARGE army quite well. Every catapult and balista lost is usually lost can't be fixed over night. Plus, a dragon can endure alot, espicially with DR on every nonmagical attack, such as almost every arrow, and spear and such.
But the Wk can spare men. If he has to lose a few armies to bring down the dragons, fair deal, he can make more (it takes six months to make ten thousand uruk-hai). Fear and what not can cause a lot of problems as well.


3. Your right. My bad, but their fortitude certainly rocks! Poisen? If its poisen that is produced in large numbers then I am pretty sure its not gonna affect these dragons too badly.
But there are literally thousands of arrows. They only need to fail a few saves and hey, pois on. And the Nazgul's version is far worst. Also Morgul fly by shank. If the arrows themselves don't hurt them enough, the massive amount of poison will.



4. Black breath? Saves should cover that. Most are not gonna be that badly affected.
No, your thinking of the Black Shadow. THe black breath is absurdly more powerful, and if you make direct contact with the Nazgul, or a weapon they have had direct contact with (like an arrow) you are pretty much going down, the question is how long you can last before you can't fight at all)


5. Balistas, while easier to reload and easier to aim, were never designed against flying units, and can only aim up and down (rather slowly!), unless you take the time and effort to move the balista around. As for the being occupied, meh. Most of the arrows won't pierce them, the Nazgul are only 9 in total and would quickly get blasted out of the air, the winged beasts are panzies, and anyone that gets close enough to stab the dragon with a morgul blade would most likely get brought down before they land the blow. The trolls, I can see as a slight problem, one that would taken rather quickly. Rocks of fire infused with what? Where is that mentioned? I want a page! Please?

1) There are plenty of arrows, fear/black shadow/black breath effects, thrown and launched rocks, some of which are flaming with evilness, throw in the balistas a few will hit. There are a lot of trolls, and they only need to bring down a few dragons to be worth the loses.
2) The Fell beasts aren't push overs, they are big and nasty. But their main goal to keep hte Nazgul flying around causing havoc
3) If the nazgul morgul shank a dragon but go down, fine. They lose a mount and get lost, the other team loses a dragon. Mounts are replaceable, dragons are not
4) there are plenty of trolls, and plenty of rocks. Not to mention massive swarms of arrows with poison.
5) Return of hte king , The siege of minis Tirith, infernal rock burning fire is mentioned made by some foul craft



Quote:
ARMY!
Army wise, dragons hold a great advantage, undead hold a gread advantage (damage reduction and no critical hits) for the hold no fear, and the power that every dragon possess as a creature made of magic is just plain awesome. Every dragon can cast its fair share of spells and can breath a cone of cold, can move faster than most ground units, can't be harmed to much, can send foes running away crying to their mommies and can sustain a great deal of damage. They have quality where the WK has quantity. I say that quality is better than quantity. Its like the Machine gun in WWI against the constant wave of troops on either side. Each dragon is like said machine gun in comparison to the orcs. Does that make any sense? Poisen against dragons? Their bodies would fight it off without any problem. And they are basically immune to fear, and some dragons are immune to cold. And their own magical protections should be enough against the black breath and such. Seige weapons for the WK? Dodge em and take em out. Not too hard, and it takes ALOT of effort to aim a catapult or trebuchet. Try aiming at a flying target, it isn't easy.
Quality can only do so much. In WWI what made the machine gun so devastating was that the people against it were morons and charged the damn thing. The WK isn't a moron and knows how to use his numbers, with some actual very good troops very well. The Dragons aren't even a hundred, the are barely over half a hundred, and every one lost is lost for ever. There are only 28 unique undead in the entire army. There is one flying fortress. The total number of the blue dragon flight army is in the low tens of thousands, most likely not even half a hundred thousand, while the Nazgul can command almost half a million. Magic of the Nazgul is absurdly dangerous and can take most of the army into confusion and chaos, and against normal troops the WK has hte advantage. Goblins are far weaker than any of the WK's troops, and the Easterlings, Haradrim, Hill men, Men of Angmar, Evil Dunidan of the North, Southerons, Swarthy men, Swertlings, Uruk-hai, half trolls, half orcs, goblin men, men orcs, Mumikil, deep haradrim, trolls, Olag hai, Men of Umber, Black Nudimorians, Barrow Wights, Men of Morgul, Lesser wraiths, silent wathcers, White wolves, Wargs, Spirit Wargs and what ever other nasty guys they can produce are enough to be very nasty for the Dragon folk, along with the more crappy orc and wolf troops. The army of Soth simply doesn't have the force to match, quality can defeat numbers, but it needs to be close enough in terms of strength to make a difference.


FROSTMOURNE & MAGICAL WEAPONS!
1) That design doesn't seem to mess up Arthas' skill to use the weapon, now does it? And how do you know of its weight? The Mats made for the weapon are everyday steel. I don't even know what they are. Unwieldy?
2) Your point?
3) Demons is a safe bet, and it would fill in many of the gaps, or so I believe. Whoever made it, they were really powerful, like IMMENSELY powerful.
4) Like I said before, Aragon was talking about the weapons in his world. And I find it odd that he knows this as a fact. I don't recall him as a user of magic.
5) Where does it say that? And perhaps there are no expcetions because that would ruin the whole story. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions, they just didn't make any hypothetical situations.
1) Look at the thing
http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne
That is utterly unwieldy as a sword. Still usable, but a more normal weapon would be better if it had the same powers. The handle is absurd, the design is all wrong. I mean the sample made is intended to be a show sword.
2) Who made it doesn't matter, its actual powers are what matters
3) Yes yes, we get it, but we can't take the demon thing for fact. We can however look at its actual confirmed powers and realizes its limitations
4) He is a master of lore, being the returned king and all that. Also magic in his world doesn't make a difference, if Glamring can't do it, then it is evident that raw power isn't what needed to win, what is needed is actual enchantments with powers
5) There are no exceptions made. The reasoning is irrelevant, the point is there are cannonly no exceptions, unless you posses a power like that of a barrow blade.



EPIC!
1. I believe you.
But I see them as powerful enough to not bypass or slide in but shatter the shield because epic weapons possess insane power, which aids them in every swing and every blow they deal.
2. If Aragon said that, I doubt him. He is a secondary source. Does he know of Gandalf's weapon, or maybe Orcrist? I dunno if he does, certainly doesn't mention that he does.
1) Insane powers isn't the issue, specific powers is. The WK's shield needs a specific type of weapon to be dispelled, one that is made against the undead
2) Actually he does, he is one of Gandalf's closest friend and confident and is a lore master himself, living far longer than normal humans (Hence why he is so wise and stuff)


ABSOLUTE RULES!
Not saying that. Just saying that about absolute powers. The Eldars could probally pull that off against anyone they want, aside from beings of equal power. Then again, I know little of Lovecraft's Eldars so I can't really make perfect sense out of it without readign his books.
They can break the rules. They don't have to follow them. Basically, in their full forms, they pretty much always win


A) Explain how direct magical attacks evade it?
B) It could work.
C) No idea about that, so can't say too much about it.
D) Makes sense.
E) Alright.
F) Then he would be destroyed by a blast from frieza, or crushed by the foot of a man the size of how many galaxies?
Good points, but I believe there are more than just those things that can defeat his shield. Mentioned them so many times, need I say them again?
A) It never is explained, just a magical attack is able to hurt him. I guess taht this spell is a cheap melee trick, but direct magic attacks don't need the phyical requirement to hurt him
B) The weapons needs an established anti undead or anti wraith abilty. Soth's fists and Frostmourn and Ashbringer have those traits
C) basically, if your power says you can break the rules, then you pretty much render the shield useless. The Elder evils can break any rules so......
D) Pretty much. Soth isn't that however
F) No and no, because he is immune to being frozen (no body) and he can' be crushed. He could be send flying and be pretty much taken out of the battle. The foot itself would destroy thing. Being driven through the earth into magma would however.


INTEGRITY!
Can you give me a quote on that?
The one i responed tio


MAGICAL LEVEL!
Magic power is measured by magical level. Simple to understand, yes?
Magic power is measured by waht it does. We might put it into levels, but in the case of teh Wk's shield it isn't like a D&D shield where you need a certain power level to be able to get through it


DBZ!
1. So there for a magic sword could pull it off by that logic and not just a holy magic sword.
2. No, their bodies or physical manifestations would be destroyed because their rings wouldn't be able to survive it.
1) Except physical magical items are stated to not be able to work. Direct magic attacks are a different issue, maybe they evade it
2) No because the person wouldn't phyicall hurt him (though being driven into magma would). his body needs to be destroyed by an actual weakness. Like say, having him body being punched, driven through a planet and burned



EXCEPTIONS!
Course he loves detail, like when Gandalf fell into darkness in the first book. I could just see Frodo crying as he fell. Oh wait! He didn't even mention that!
That is assumed. He did go into a page long rant about the different names of the Dwarven Mountains of Moria and the history of the Elven Dwarven trade relations


BITTER!
True. But thats not to say that no other blow could deal pain, just this one that dealt more pain than any other could have dealt.

This one was the only one that could break his spell



SAURON & WK!
So its a natural protection from being undead?
Alright, but is Sauron out matched by his own lackey in terms of power?
I am using logical backing, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

Sauron is a different type of being. Soth's dragon has different' powers them him, that doesn't make Soth any weaker.


CHEATING!
Then I think your either cheating or your using a flawed arguement. Everyone else, I think really believe in their logic, and I have yet to see anything to prove their logic inert.
As tryant said, only using an argument to suit your whims and not applying it universally is basically favoritism.



MONKS!
Right, forgot. But what about Outsiders? Could they not be affected by fear? Curses, alright, but fear?

I don't think Monks gain immunity to fear actually.


ARMY SIZE!
Moooooo?
bahhhhhhh



Either he has Greater Dispelling at will or he has it 2 or 3 times a day and Dispell at will. One or the other.
So confusing!
Does he ever use it in the book



I believe the second one was killed in the Cataclysm, he just chose not to help. Same thing as murder in my oppinion.

She burned herself up when he returned home and cursed him



Campaign?
1. Frightful presence changes that.
2. Skeletons are better than orcs in my book.
3. No idea
4. Read?
5. I agree with most of this.
1) Their loyallty isn't natrual, it is the WK's power, his will you might so. He also has more powerful fear powers
2) Eh? Skeletons, at least normals ones suck generally. They can't take many hits, they don't do much damage, and they aren't good troops. Their real advantage is the whole undead swarm. Orcs are better trained and better equipped. The Skeleton Knights are a different story, but there are only 13 of them
3) death knight stats, they can raise a small force of undead.
5) thank you



Dunno what to say to that stuff for now.


WIll talk more lter! Late now, bored of typing, willy wonka on now, brain melting... Moo....


exhausting work i imagine. You are also a page behind sadly

Malar


Hell, if you want to get even more technical. It said no blade can harm him, it says nothing about the force transfered from the blade though. Hit 'em hard enough and the blade may not cut him, but the force behind it will still hurt.
It would knock him over i suppose. I don't think it would actually do anything, but you could keep him out of combat i suppose


I think the effectiveness of Soth's undead forces is being understated. It's stated time and again that their touch is death, that men fear them, and that they're devastatingly effective in battle. Heck, the whole Palanthian army couldn't stop them.
I thought that was just his elite 13



My point has little appliance to actual weapons, I was not extinguishing the power of weapons transfered nor enlarging them. My point was the credibility of one authors words in the world of another author. IE, Aragorn said that all blades would break and such, you claim that no other weapon can penetrate the shield. Well, you can only use that as a absolute in the world it was meant for.
Point in case. No weapon, magical or no, in LotRs can penetrate the WK's shield except a holy anti-undead one. Now EE seems to apply this logic outside the world, which just doesn't work at all. Using his knowledge and word for word points, not even Sargeras' sword could cremate the dude, and his sword was described as the strongest sword in the whole setting of Warcraft. Of course, hey, that doesn't matter, it was only the sword of the grand demon lord of the Burning Legion, who is far more powerful than the WK and Sauron combined, so no big deal. Your accusation on me championing is poorly made, as it seems to directly differ with EEs belief that all items affect other worlds as they do their own.
your point, as Tyrant states quite clearly, is basically saying "well, this will work because it isn't from LOTRS" and yet WoW stuff always works fine.
The power and the origin of the weapon is irrelevant, i don't know why you can't get that. THe WK's shield isn't based upon raw power level, otherwise the more powerful weapons of LOTRS could piece it, it is based upon the anti undead quality of the weapon
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

You honestly don't pay attention to my arguments, do you? I have been backing up my points.
No he just notes the massive flaw in your argument, or the basic double standard and/or misunderstanding when it comes to the actual shield and weapon effects


For our topic of powerful weapons, Frostmourne. There is a high chance it was forged by demons, and they are the enemies of order and life officially in Warcraft. Frostmourne has chaotic energy, which allows it to bypass divine armor magical or natural, it is still armor of the deities! Technically, it even bypasses the invulnerability code due to that chaotic energy, which could very well be considered a ultimate spell. It serves as the extension of the LK's will as the ring does for Sauron. But this all means nothing without the wraith harming ability, does it?
Yeah, because Raw power isn't the basis shield. in LOTRs, the Barrow blade isn't an epic weapon. It isn't even on the scale. it is a minor random mass produced weapon. And yet, it can do something epic weapons can't. Why? Because of a specific enchantment. Raw power or niffty attack boosts aren't what is needed to win with this shield, it is specific qualities.


Now what you and EE seem to be doing? You are championing the WK's shield, saying it is completely indestructable unless combated with holy magic. Even a freaking kamehameha (Or death ball or Spirit bomb) couldn't get through by EE's words, because it is not anti-undead, or doesn't have the specific qualities! He is taking the whole shield word for word against everything in the whole collection of fantasies and sci-fictions, only excluding magical attacks, and little else. THAT is championing. Yet you accuse me of it? Truly poor show.
Yeah (wait, is a kamehameha a magical attack or a phyical bomb?) because it needs the specific requirements. It is quite clear that magical power, magic levels, and magic origin aren't the issue in terms of what teh Shield is weak against, it is weak against a specific type of attack. Abiding by established fact isn't poor show, breaking rules to suits ones own purpose is. You haven't found any actual flaws in Tryants reasoning, in fact you haven't really acknowledged his main point, IE the favoritism that such an argument relies upon


You are insulting my integrity for a fault which you seem to share with EE, when I am actually attempting to back it up with agreeable evidence, which your side seems to toss aside as pointless words, while in the meantime you just use flawed logic and literal interpretation.
What evidence? despite the established fact that the WK's shield has nothing to do with raw power, you keep insisting that raw power can somehow get around it.
You don't explain the flaw in my logic, where cannon assumptions are actually held to their word, and any inter-world relationships are actually held at a total standard, but more as an attempt to obtain a favorable outcome.



As for the point, you clearly cannot grasp it.
The WK's shields indestructability is not as absolute in Warcraft as it is in Middle Earth, holy weapons aside. That is the very short version of it, but with the density of some peoples heads, I may have to elaborate pointlessly on that.
1) I think you fail to grasp the point that the idea of stuff only working in one universe goes both ways
2) Then your missing the point. The raw power of a weapon is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the Wk's shield, because other more powerful weapons than the Barrow blades can't do it ether. A specific requirement is needed.



EE would argue against you on that point, but... touche.
Although with his determination, it may very well come down to bare fists.

i'll take that as a compliment, but hte point relies on a total nitpick. You could hit him with a sword and knock him over i suppose, i don't know what that would accomplish

from
EE

[Tyrant]

However, im going to have to side on the LoTR side for the Army. Mainly because I don't think it's fair to leave Sauron out of the equation. Sauron can see anything, correct? Can see far into the battlefeild before hand, and see what units they have? Where they are set up? I would assume this would leave the Witch-King with a huge tactics advantage.

See, while the Witch-King never had Sauron fight with him, Sauron would have certainly cheaker out the posistion and battlefeild before hand, right? He would be an idiot not to.
Of course if you involve Sauron to not involve Takhisis wouldn't be playing by the same rules. She is a far more proactive god and would take the fight to the field. As far as scouting, how could he when the Dragonarmies just materialize? He won't see that coming. They will be expecting Gondorians and they will be getting Draconians. Otherwise you could argue that Raistlin had likewise used his scrying abilites to scout out the area which nullifies any advantage they would gain by Sauron's indirect help.

And let's not forgest the Witch-Kings fear. Soth's army isn't all Dragons right? Or all undead? Or all mindless? The fear effect would be quite powerful then on those troops. Fighitng troops who are scared and unorganized would make a huge diffrence.
I don't know if it matters, but the army is almost entirely Draconians. They are the eggs of the good dragons mutated and twisted through dark magic to serve Takhisis. So, yes they are dragons, just not the large dragons. I honestly don't know where that puts them on the fear immunity/nonimmunity scale.

DIVINE ARMOR!
1. The Issue, as far as I can see, is that the WK's 'absolute shield' seems to always counter every thing thrown at it aside fromt he slight little blade of magic.
I'll stop you right there. Here is your problem. The Barrow Blade isn't some uber badass weapon of epic pownage and it takes down his defenses. So, you assume that anything more powerful will do the job. What you are totally failing to see (willfully I have to believe at this point) is that it hurt for a reason and that reason isn't just that it was magic. It was made to hurt him. Another weapon would have to be of a similar make (as in target the very things he is like the Barrow Blade does) to do what that blade did.

Again, the Superman argument. I'll use big bold letters this time as I am obviously not driving this point home H Y P O T H E T I C A L L Y if he were absolutely immune to everything save kryptonite, then nothing else you throw at him (again, barring reality manipulation as it can make up new rules as it goes) will hurt him. A star? No problem. Super nova? It won't even phase him. That blast the TTGL took? Won't even notice. Black Hole? He may never come back out but he will be in one piece. Big Bang? He's sneezed and felt it more than that. Getting the picture of what absolute immunity means yet? I'm not saying that one and only one sword could hurt the WK. I am saying that a sword would need to be able to overcome his magical defenses, and the quotes would lead most people to believe that brute force will get you nowhere (except dead from the black breath maybe).

Now, applying logic, explain to me why the epic pownage weapons of WoW retain their abilities while the WK gets the shaft? You still haven't answered this very basic question and continue to completely avoid it. You're own logic destroys your position. You argue that we basically can't trust the word o f the settings and therefore can't know how they will interact. You go on to assume that just because WoW is so uber it will naturally get to rewrite the rules to suit it's own purpose. While possibly entertaining, that doesn't follow any system of logic or debate beyond fanboyism.

So, very simply, explain to me why it is Frostmourne will still work as written and the WK gets told where to stick it.

Never in LOTR is it mentioned that another magic weapon could not break through, or so I believe. If I am wrong, please give me a quote.
The quote is given at least twice in this discussion. I don't know how you understand the phrase "no other blade" but it seems pretty clear to me. Do you mind enlightening us as to how else to understand that phrase because I'm just not seeing it. It even includes, "not though mightier hands had wielded it" Now, who do we know that had mightier hands and was using any other blade? Why, that Aragorn fellow is pretty mighty and he certainly has another blade. They talk about him and his sword quite a bit. They even titled the third book, Reutrn of the King, after the fact that he (the King) returned, so he must be important. Those dots really aren't hard to connect.

As a side note, I do have to admit that judging it technically, a non bladed weapon could in theory work.

2. Perhaps, but heres a little something. Where is it said that whatever protects the WK is a spell? Could it not be its own natural protection from simply being a immensly powerful wraith?
Why, right here it is in the same quote. "cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will" This blow came just before the death blow by Eowyn. This description tells me this is the shot that made the death blow possible.

Superman vs. Doomsday seems to say alot about this. Not following?
No, I'm not following because it doesn't relate to any point being made against you. Superman was beaten up by villains prior to getting killed by Doomsday. Therefore, it stands to reason that he was not absolutely invulnerable. Following that, him being killed proves nothing as he was not absolutely invulnerable.

Here's an experiment. Tell me the difference between these two phrases and you may beign to see my point.
1) absolutely invulnerable
2) virtually invulnerable
They don't mean the same thing and that is my point. I'm sure you can figure out what I am saying. You can't simply overcome absolute invulnerability with brute force. Being absolutely invulnerable is like being pregnant. You are or you aren't. There is no middle ground. The fact I have to use the word absolute shows how awfully the word invulnerable has been used. The word by itself should tell you that nothing can harm the object it is describing but poor usage in comics and games (and the general path speech has taken in the last decade or two when it comes to people describing things) has forced the need for the absolute description to get the point across. That this conversation is even happening and someone is actually debating this point with me only illustrates this point further.

Lets try a real life method. Lets say theres this wall of stone. It won't break if I punch at it, nor will it break if a wind blows at it. But then you bring in the wrecking ball..... See where I am going with this?
Not really because a wall of sufficient thickness of sufficiently dense stone won't break. They use dynamite against that and shatter it, not pointlessly beat on it.

Whether D&D rules work on the WK or not is beside the point, the point is that defense can be overcome by power, all that it takes is either a good amount of it or a well placed strike.
You need to unlearn what you have learned apparently. A well placed strike is not overcoming something with brute force. It is exactly the opposite and hurts you're argument even more as a well placed strike is exactly what we are saying it takes to bring down his defenses. There are some things which can not be over come by brute force or power. Packaging peanuts can take an incredible amount of weight being placed on them. Considerable force. Yet I can tear one in half with little to no effort. One way works, the other doesn't. This plays out across numerous materials in the real world. None of those are reinforced by magic or the will of a dark god. Once you add that in making it absolutely true becomes a real possibility as you kissed reality and it's rules goodbye. Things in a fantasy don't conform to what you believe the real world conforms to. You want a real life absolute? The gravity of a black hole. Once you are passed a certain point, you aren't coming back out. That's real life. Now just think what can be accomplished with something that can make up rules as it goes along (magic).

You learn that by punching a wooden board with your own fist in kempo. So yeah, I think I have something more than just my own words. Am I wrong that defenses can't be destroyed with power of any kind?
Yes you are wrong. You keep trying to apply what is true in the real world to a fantasy world where magic exists. There is nothing in the real world that can be compared to that. Magic doesn't work by the same basic rules of the universe as we know them to work. If a spell renders something absolutely indestructable then nothing can harm it unless it can somehow undo or bypass the spell. Being an uber cheese weapon with a side of pownage beyond level 9000 doesn't give things a free pass to do that. They have to be able to for a reason beyond the rule of cool.

If that is so, then why bring in the prophecy? That is what the shield basically is from my understanding. Plot device.
Even the other people arguing with you seem to get that the prophecy is no protection at all. It isn't a "this and only this can hurt you" kind of prophecy, it is a "this is how you will die" prophecy. His protection was the spell, not the prophecy. The prophecy was speaking of how the spell would be undone and who woud actually kill him. Like Macbeth.

And if I may add, absolution and cannon makes little sense in vs. thread.
So Frostmourne isn't indestructable and can't steal the souls of people not of the WoW setting then? I'll remember that.

Reason why I think so? I dunno, maybe this'll explain a little bit. Aragon (who I never thought to be the one to understand all the rules and magic....) says that any other blade would have broken on the WK's shield.
Aragorn, while likely not being all knowing on this subject, is quite well versed in the history of his people and their struggle against Sauron. If any mortal would know, it would be him. Being raised by Elves and taught you're history (and living longer than normal men) tend to let you pick up things like that. Given that the Nazgul were an enemy he would likely have to face directly or deal with indirectly at some point, he would probably learn as much as he could about them. He isn't an idiot after all. So, while he may not absolutely understand the magic of ME, I think painting him ignorant of it isn't even close to the books. I mean, he did know how to fight the effects of the Morgul Blade used on Frodo and the black breath at Minas Tirith when most others seemed dumbfounded. He isn't a peasant.


Was he talking about every blade in every world? No, he was talking about every blade in his world. HIS world.
Is Frostmourne's indestructability talking about every world? Using your logic, no, only WoW. See how the door swings both ways?


Now this can be taken in two ways. YOu can either say that this rule, given by someone who can't use magic himself and is but a ranger/king, is a absolute rule and must be taken serouisly as such. Or you can believe that he was referring to all the weapons in his own world. I think the later seems more reasonable.
What seems reasonable to me is to apply this to all sides of the debate which renders things like Frostmourne usuless pieces of scrap metal with no power beyond their native world. That is what your logic leads to. Can't you see that?


The flying citadel isn't an entire city. It's a fortress. And the spells that tore it from the ground were very powerful, so it would take a lot of effort to do it again, let alone to a city the size of Minas Tirith.
I know. That was simply musing at possibilties from the crossover. I think they would need Raistilin and Dalamar and about every other Black Mage they could round up plus a blessing (if not direct help) from Nuitari to pull it off. Likewise for Barah Dur.

My point was the credibility of one authors words in the world of another author.
And yet, you clearly favor taking the words of the authors of one setting as absolute truth in comparison to the other which you apparently take as heresay. Again, favoritism much?

IE, Aragorn said that all blades would break and such, you claim that no other weapon can penetrate the shield.
Actually I never said no other weapon could do it. I said a weapon needed a reason beyond being stupidly powerful to do it. If a weapon were described as being able to bypass all defenses (in a setting with magical items, spells, etc), then I would agree that it would work. You know why? Because it says ALL defenses and I believe in using absolutes unless they are proven to not actually be absolute. If it singles out one type of defense, and that type isn't magic, then it won't work. I don't care if that weapon can somehow hurt God, that doesn't mean it can hurt anything else. This is based in the same place that you get your twisted logic. How can't you see that? Not everything plays by the same rules is your view, yet you renounce it when it hurts your case.

Well, you can only use that as a absolute in the world it was meant for.
You mean like every ability Forstmourne has is in the world it was meant for?

Of course, hey, that doesn't matter, it was only the sword of the grand demon lord of the Burning Legion, who is far more powerful than the WK and Sauron combined, so no big deal.
You're right. It doesn't matter and it is no big deal. If it can't do what needs to be done to bypass or overcome the shield, then it doesn't matter who made it or how powerful it is.

as it seems to directly differ with EEs belief that all items affect other worlds as they do their own.
If you take that meaning from my words, then nothing I can say will help you. I have said that all things should be taken to do what they say they do and the debate is how they interact when it isn't clear cut. Somewhere along the way the idea that objects of great power get a free pass to do whatever the hell the poster wishes they could do got thrown in for no apparent reason and I have been trying to understand how anyone using anything resembling logic can reach that conclusion. Thus far nothing beyond favoritism seems likely as you two seem to posses the ability to communicate effectively enough so I have ruled out stupidity.

You honestly don't pay attention to my arguments, do you?
Yes I do. I have to if I want to be able to point out their flaws and the obvious problems they present when applied across the board (as they should be if we are to use them). You have yet to answer my main criticism (which I have stated repeatedly) with any real argument.

There is a high chance it was forged by demons, and they are the enemies of order and life officially in Warcraft.
But not the enemy of all life and order in LotR.

Frostmourne has chaotic energy, which allows it to bypass divine armor magical or natural, it is still armor of the deities!
WoW dieites.

Technically, it even bypasses the invulnerability code due to that chaotic energy, which could very well be considered a ultimate spell.
A WoW cheat code and ultimate spell. Begining to see a trend here?

But this all means nothing without the wraith harming ability, does it?
Not really. If whoever made Frostmourne made a car (as in automobile) and it got 2 MPG and one made by the lesser abilities of those who made the swords of the Barrow Downs got 40 MPG, no amount of bluster about power levels and who made it will change the fact that it has sucky fuel consumption in comparison to a car made by lesser beings. Oh sure, the demonic will probably look cooler and have tons of cool features. But, when it comes to that one thing, it will fall short. So, for that one buyer who cares more about fuel economy than cool features, one of these vehicles will work and one won't (no matter how badass it may be otherwise)

Just because something is uber powerful does not mean that it does all things well. Is this really that hard to get? Is Frostmourne the best thing to use as a gate to a railroad crossing? Does it pick up many radio stations? Would it make a good solar probe? Can it cut adamantium? Just because it's absurdly powerful does not make it the master of all tasks. Seriously this isn't even high school level logic employed to understand that very basic concept.

You are championing the WK's shield, saying it is completely indestructable unless combated with holy magic.
No, I'm not saying that. For one thing, if something can bypass magical defenses it can hurt him. Magic can hurt him. Something which can shut down his defenses can hurt him. There are several ways around it. Brute force just isn't one of them.

The WK's shields indestructability is not as absolute in Warcraft as it is in Middle Earth
I guess it's a good thing he isn't bound by WoW rules then isn't it?

That is the very short version of it, but with the density of some peoples heads, I may have to elaborate pointlessly on that.
I would love to see the long version of that argument. Any charts or graphs to go along with it?

[Matar]

You right, Sauron in every battle was the main organizer, teh WK was more of a field commander you might say. Sauron would not just scout out the area for him, he would often plan ahead and arrange things so he would have plenty of advantages, such as corrupting Denethor so he wouldn't be an effective leader under attack.
I see your point, but isn't Sauron over kill?

I don't think so. Here's the thing, For -all- of the Witch-Kings battles Sauron looked over and scouted the battle first, right? I assume this mainly because Sauron would be a total -moron- not to.

So, in order for the Witch-King to have the proper troops that he would normally use we must fairly say that Sauron scouted the battle feild first and they know what they should use.

Sauron -effecting- the battlefeild beyound that, however, is overkill. As the Witch-King never had Sauron work under him beyond that point.

All assumptions though. I don't know if Sauron does that, but I think he would.

Also, if the army -does- teleport to where they attack then Saurons power means nothing. How they do this though, I have no idea.


It would knock him over i suppose. I don't think it would actually do anything, but you could keep him out of combat i suppose

I think force can "destroy" him though. But he comes back afterwards. From what I remember he and the other Nazguls were killed by a spell that animated water and made it crash upon them, correct?

Here's the thing. If the river was magic, then this isn't evidence. If it's normal water however, and just animated, then the force behind the crashing river "killed" them.

If not, all we have to go by is interpritating it literally. And if we do that, so long as you don't try to cut him with a sword, it will effect him. And, technically, the force behind the blow.


Of course if you involve Sauron to not involve Takhisis wouldn't be playing by the same rules. She is a far more proactive god and would take the fight to the field. As far as scouting, how could he when the Dragonarmies just materialize? He won't see that coming. They will be expecting Gondorians and they will be getting Draconians. Otherwise you could argue that Raistlin had likewise used his scrying abilites to scout out the area which nullifies any advantage they would gain by Sauron's indirect help.

Was she involved in every battle? Remember, Sauron was always indirectly involved in every battle. At least for the scouting part, and knowing what to send.

I assume, at least. With the power to see from afar what idiot wouldn't spy on his enemies to know what exactly to send?


So Frostmourne isn't indestructable and can't steal the souls of people not of the WoW setting then?

It can still steal souls, but is no longer indestructible. It would take extremly epic magic -to- break it, however.


Now, applying logic, explain to me why the epic pownage weapons of WoW retain their abilities while the WK gets the shaft? You still haven't answered this very basic question and continue to completely avoid it. You're own logic destroys your position. You argue that we basically can't trust the word o f the settings and therefore can't know how they will interact. You go on to assume that just because WoW is so uber it will naturally get to rewrite the rules to suit it's own purpose. While possibly entertaining, that doesn't follow any system of logic or debate beyond fanboyism.

They don't? When did someone claim they did? It keeps it's powers, but seeing as how it's in a new universe looses it "Absolutly indestructibleness".

[Tyrant]

Also, if the army -does- teleport to where they attack then Saurons power means nothing. How they do this though, I have no idea.
I assumed that they basically just appeared. Otherwise both sides would scout ahead and use their divine and arcane connections to gain any advantage they could.

I think force can "destroy" him though. But he comes back afterwards. From what I remember he and the other Nazguls were killed by a spell that animated water and made it crash upon them, correct?
Honestly, I agree with the force destroying them part. It won't kill them (my comments have thus far been about killing the WK, not destroying him like the flood) and that is an important distinction to make. Sauron's been "destroyed" before, but he hasn't been killed.

Was she involved in every battle?
Every battle? No. She was directly helping Verminaard until Paladine revealed himself forcing her retreat as she was not ready to directly challenge him yet. She was present (or as much as she could be) when Raistilin betrayed her and brought down Ariakas' shield allowing him to be killed. She did not act in the same capacity as you believe Sauron would (I agree on the likelyhood of him doing what you are suggesting). She was more about direct help of her clerics (Verminaard) and messengers (Mina, though how much was her and how much was Mina is debatable). She also begged Soth in person to join her cause if I recall correctly.

I assume, at least. With the power to see from afar what idiot wouldn't spy on his enemies to know what exactly to send?
Even without direct evidence (assuming there is none) I believe that to be a reasonable assumption given all that we know of Sauron.

It can still steal souls, but is no longer indestructible. It would take extremly epic magic -to- break it, however.

They don't? When did someone claim they did? It keeps it's powers, but seeing as how it's in a new universe looses it "Absolutly indestructibleness".
You are honestly the first person I have seen on here take the stance that it would cease to be absolutely indestructible (aside from my recomendation to apply the rules across the board).

As far as when who claimed that, the abilites have been repeatedly rambled off in this and other threads all the while claiming that it will harm the WK through the power of awesome and that he apparently gets to eat a bag of pure fail when it comes to his protection spell.

[Rowanomicon]

For the record, the "flood" that took out the WK and the other Nazgul was the combined magical mojo of Gandalf (though he was magically gimped by his human form, he's still a big name in magic), Elrond, and Glorfindle (?).

So seer force isn't necessarily enough, unless you like bury him in rocks that he couldn't possibly escape from physically, thus forcing him to leave his physical body.

Even this is not a final end for the WK, but if Sauron is not getting directly involved in this then I would say that it's enough of an end for the WK for this battle because when the WK's physical body is destroyed he needs to return to Mordor so that Sauron can give him a new body and mount.

Also, when discussing "indestructible" items in multi-verse versus threads I said that physical force, no matter how strong and from what universe, would not break it, but if someone like Q came along and just changed reality so that the item was in more than one piece or had not power left or was no longer indestructible, then that would supersede the item's indestructibility.

[Bago!!!]

Now we have come to the point in our discussion, kids, where people are twisting other peoples words!

Rowanomicon
But he just said he added a few of his touches like the horse bit, the river may not have any other special effect than to rush at them. He may have improved it somehow, but it doesn't say anything aside from that.

But you misunderstand me. I think that sheer force can break his defenses and hurt him significantly. And its possible to destroy him with overpowering force, otherwise he wouldn't have died from that water spell.

Alright.

I think that enough magical force could break it, or some really powerful brute force. Maybe doomsday, maybe AO from FR, or perhaps, as mentioned prevouisly, Q. I dunno the full extent of most of their powers, so I can only guess, but I am pretty sure that those are powerful enough to suffice.

Tyrant
To be fair, both me and Steven never took a stance on Frostmourne destructibility. What we did say was that it was indestructable to the WK's shield. I stick with that comment.

What me and Steve have been thinking of is destroying him from the beginning.

I don't recall saying by the power of Awesome, and niether has Steve. We have given our reasons why we think so, and it is not simply because we believe that Frostmourne is just plain kick ass. We are not Massive fan boys of the Warcraft universe. The reason why I did not say that Frostmourne could be destroyed by something else was because another scenario occured where I thought it could be destroyed, because this is the only scenario that was given.

I think the Lord Sauron and theat evil goddess should just be set out of this. To bring even Sauron's spirit is a pain to deal with, and our heads are already throbbing this army thing! To bring a Goddess is just wrong.


Now then, lets get to the comments on my post...

DIVINE ARMOR!
Hhhhhhhmmmm...... I don't recall having a problem... :smallannoyed:

I am well aware that the barrow blade is not epic, just it's spells are his weakness. I don't deny that and I can understand that. What I do deny is that divinity is weaker than this spell and what I can't understand is why couldn't this spell, something weaker than a deities' own personal power, could counter every other thing thrown at it. Absolute rules, again, are worthless.

I am well aware of what your saying, but I am not convinced with it because of the major flaw of Doomsday who smashed his face. He is not made of kyrptonite, so therefore this hypothetical he should not have been able to do that. Yet he DID. Your hypothetical point makes little sense to me. Try again please, for I haven't gotten the main idea just yet.

GIVE ME THE QUOTE! I obvoiusly haven't seen a direct quote yet otherwise I would not be asking! And if we take everything literal, then a mace oughta bypass his defense. If you don't, then that whole 'no other blade can hurt him' is just a sorry excuse without any real backing. If I am wrong, smite me with logic and some REAL backing.

You never said such question to me so simple. Not my fault. Both the shield and the blade can be broken, with enough power. The shield does not have enough power to break this sword. Stop twisting my words, and shoving them down my mouth. I am saying that the most basic ABSOLUTE law does not carry over because it was NEVER made to carry over into other worlds, which all have their own set of rules. WK is bad ass in his own world, but if you put him elsewhere, say.... right next to Doomsday..... Get my point yet? My logic is not destroying my arguement, your twisted version of my logic is just annoying.

Never says a protection spell, just a spell that knit his unseen sinews together. Where is the protection spell?

The quote said that no other blade could have hurt so much, though someone stronger has used it. Doesn't say that no other blade could hurt him peroid. And I don't believe Aragon is an expert in magic 101. Is he? Am I wrong in my assumption?

I see your point, but the whole invulnerability issue is all a matter of perspective than actuality. The WK's shield could very will be total in ME, there are other things that can make the WK's shield shatter outside his world.

The dynamite also works to prove my point.

Now your just being silly.... of course it steals souls. Stop being a kid about this and act grown up. I have the maturity of a 9 year old and yet I still manage to be civil (most of the time).

Many have said that I need to unlearn alot of things, but that is beside the point. Stop telling me I am totally wrong and prove that I am totally wrong, cause it gets tiring to hear from people that I must unlearn what I have learned because by their divine right they are always wrong. Sound familiar?
A well placed strike does not require too much force, this is true. But lets think about it this way then. Frostmourne has more power than the WK's shield, and its all attacking a single concentrated point. Logic says the shield will break.
What your saying is you need holy to bring down his defenses, not a well placed strike. So it doesn't help you out.
The rest makes no sense to me. Care to explain it?
I am well aware that fantasy doesn't conform, but we can see similiarities in rules that we can try to make sense of this. Now what are you saying? That we can't possibly make rules for this? That every thing is to be taken literall? Then take everything literal, maces don't get affected by the shield. If you take one thing literal, you have to take EVERYTHING literal. Now make up your mind.

I am wrong? Then prove me wrong. Prove to me that magic cannot over come magic if it has enough overpowering effects.
How can things not be compared to magic?

I know what my logic says and I know what I mean. You are telling me frostmourne would be pieces of scrap metal, not me. You are wrong here, not I.


Steven does not clearly favor one author over the other, he clearly favors Sargeras as a great being than the WK. It would be like having a blade of grass against a wave. Sargeras' power is practically godlike. It is godlike. The whole thing about this small wraith still standing against Sargeras after a great blade coming down at the hands of someone who has destroyed entire worlds and devoured their magics.

Beyond being stupidly powerful? Give me a reason the shield can't stop it beside being stupidly absolute.
I don't believe in absolutes when they are from one world and put up against completely different rules.

........ Stop with stupidity of repeating yourself like that. Not only is it unproductive, it only adds to the confusion and makes you seem like a jerk.

The other points you make on steven's reply are about as insightful as a bag of dog poop, and worth about as much.

Tyrant..... grow up. Stop belittling Steven, it REALLY gets under my skin...... Belittle me if you wish, but I ask you, BACK OFF of Steven. :smallmad:




Matar
Again, you've read my mind like Rowan did! How? I never new there was a mind there! I think I already said my fill on force and such.

The army and Sauron stuff seems to painful for my head to touch right now...

EE

THeres too much to that you have written.... will get back that HUGE post later...


And whats with the exact copy of Tyrant's post?

[Rowanomicon]

I don't think I misunderstood you, Bago, but just to be absolutely clear:
Did you mean sheer physical force or sheer magical force can break the WK's defenses and hurt him significantly?

Either way I do agree with you, however, with physical force it would have to be something like trapping him in a situation where he could only escape by leaving his physical body.

I believe you're saying that the "flood" was a case of physical force overcoming him. I disagree and say it is a case of magical force overcoming him, but I doubt either of us could find something to convince the other of our view. Be my guest in trying though. If there is some wording I do not remember form that part of the book then I may be wrong.

Anyway, I believe Soth can come back on his own while the WK needs Sauron's help. That's a big point for Soth winning this thing (if we count losing his physical body as losing for the WK, which I think I do).

To reallt get an opinion on who would win this I'd need to know more about Soth's army otherwise I can only judge the one on one battle which, if Soth can, in fact, reform while the WK can't, I give to Soth by a small margin.

Now if we say that one destruction of one's physical body counts as a loss (as has been said before in versus threads) then I pretty much think it's 50/50.

So, how did the thread devolve into whatever it is now anyhow?

[Mr. Scaly]

The conductor throws a switch and with an earsplitting squeal the thread is yanked back on track.


The Citidel is slow moving and crumbersom. Its main purpose is to transport troops over the mountains and get them over harsh terrain, and act as a troop bomber. The Mordor Forces need to win the main battle, as the Cideal acts mostly as a transport, not a fighting weapon (mages aside). Remember, it took like 3 people to destroy the original.

Correction. Three main characters with plot armour. And they didn't destroy it, they just stole it and floated it over the Shoikan Grove.

According to my book, draconians are not immune to fear or curses but they do have spell resistance. Might that help?

The goblins, humans and ogres likely wouldn't run. They'd be terrified yes but they work around dragons a lot (and I'm positive that many are full grown, though doubtless there are some younger ones. Even Fireflash, who was relatively young by dragon standards noted that he was older than Flint) and would be used to that sort of thing to an extent. Plus the draconians have very powerful discipline, goblins wouldn't run if the bulk of their army stayed to fight, and the humans and ogres are fighting for money, which is a crappy incentive but a better one than dying on the spot.

EE, what other undead does Soth have? I know there're his thirteen uber skeletons who took on Palanthas, three banshees...anything else?

Fell beasts are fast, yes. But the trip from Minas Morgul to Mount Doom is a straight line. They don't seem magically enhanced so natural physics affects them, and it is very hard to turn when going that fast. Ever drive a car at sixty kmh and try to turn a corner?

I vote that for the army battle there should be some neutral ground. At one end, WK's stronghold (Angmar's capital maybe?) and at the other end Soth's (I recommend Sanction as opposed to Soth's castle since it was the home base for the Blue Wing), each with their immediate landscape for, say, a mile. Between them is a combination of grassland, forest, and hilly mountains for them all to fight in. Sauron does his whole 'scouting the situation' thing, and Takhisis adds some support of her own. Maybe some evil clerics, I don't know. Any thoughts on all this?

[Matar]

You are honestly the first person I have seen on here take the stance that it would cease to be absolutely indestructible (aside from my recomendation to apply the rules across the board).

As far as when who claimed that, the abilites have been repeatedly rambled off in this and other threads all the while claiming that it will harm the WK through the power of awesome and that he apparently gets to eat a bag of pure fail when it comes to his protection spell.

Well, the Indestrucible power of the sword would be of a higher, well, ranking then the WK's Sheild. But not to the point where nothing can touch it. It loses it's indestuble power, however it's still godly tough.

In order to explaine this better let's put it in stages.

Immune to one thing: Fire Giants. Fire elementals, Witch King (If being literal).

Immune to Several things: Not sure, honestly.

Immune to Everything, inside reality: Frostmourn. The One Ring.

Immune to Everything, defys reality: Azathoth.

That's how I picture it at least.


For the record, the "flood" that took out the WK and the other Nazgul was the combined magical mojo of Gandalf (though he was magically gimped by his human form, he's still a big name in magic), Elrond, and Glorfindle (?).

Maybe, but is the water itself magic? Or did it simply take that many people to animate it?

[Tyrant]

DIVINE ARMOR!
Hhhhhhhmmmm...... I don't recall having a problem... :smallannoyed:

I am well aware that the barrow blade is not epic, just it's spells are his weakness. I don't deny that and I can understand that. What I do deny is that divinity is weaker than this spell and what I can't understand is why couldn't this spell, something weaker than a deities' own personal power, could counter every other thing thrown at it. Absolute rules, again, are worthless.
What I am saying, in very simple terms, is that just because something can injure some supreme being, does not automatically mean it can injure every being lesser than that being. Again, kryptonite. Given the unknown nature of Frostmourne's origins (as in how it was made, don't ramble on about Demonic origins and their likelyhood), how sure are you that it wasn't made with something that is specifically harmful to the deities of the WoW universe? Their kryptonite if you will? If a kryptonite bullet hits Superman (basically anywhere, doesn't even really need to be a vital spot) and stays within him (and he should be too crippled with kryptonite poisoning to remove it himself or seek help), he should die. If one hits me in a non vital area and I get it removed (and I should be able to at least attempt to get it removed as it is in a non vital area and I am not crippled with pain), the most I am looking at is pain, blood loss, and possibly some tissue damage. I would have a scar and Superman would be dead. By your logic, I should be a dust cloud or have my outline burned into the ground behind where I once stood after getting hit by something that could kill Superman. You're saying that bullet could hit me in the pinky and my body would simply shut down because of my status of a lesser being than Superman. I'm not a godlike being and I have a better defense against kryptonite than Superman. That is my point and it should be pretty easy to follow. Something that can kill a god can't necessarily be assumed to be able to kill everything lesser than that god.

I am well aware of what your saying, but I am not convinced with it because of the major flaw of Doomsday who smashed his face. He is not made of kyrptonite, so therefore this hypothetical he should not have been able to do that. Yet he DID. Your hypothetical point makes little sense to me. Try again please, for I haven't gotten the main idea just yet.
The fact you continue tells me you aren't aware of what I am saying. My first point had to do with kryptonite and nothing else. There is no real counter example for the point I made about kryptonite as it has nothing to do with his other vulnerabilities. The second point was a hypothetical situation as I believe I explained (and if I didn't initially then I surely have since, look for the big bold letters). If you go with my hypothetical, the Doomsday thing couldn't happen. Given that it's a hypothetical with pretty clear parameters, I don't have to account for every little incident that has occured in his decades of history as my only concern is the circumstances of the hypothetical. Similar to if I were to say "suppose the sun were blue" and you're response is "but it was yellow yesterday" and then I go into the possibilities of a blue sun while you continue to insist that the sun is actually yellow. That is usually why people distinguish hypotheticals so that others understand that it is purely musing on possibilites and not bound to whatever would normally be the rules. Apparently the large bold leters weren't enough to drive home the idea that my comments weren't bound by teh decades of established canon of the last son of Krypton.

If, hypothetically, he were invulnerable, Doomsday could have beaten on him until the end of time and not even phased him. However, given the ample evidence to the contrary by his getting pummeled by other villains using brute force, he wasn't actually invulnerable. Actual invulnerability can not be overcome by brute force. That is the point of the word. Again, it's like being pregnant. You are or you aren't. There is no real middle ground.

So, under my hypothetical, that incident wouldn't have happened and we can therefore not use it as any evidence for or against. I chose Superman as he had a specific weakness and is nearly (nearly, not absolutely) invulnerable. He was already close to what I was going for and I assumed what I was saying wasn't a huge logical leap. I guess I will just ramble off abilities and attribute them to a hypothetical character next time to avoid confusion. Maybe I could come up with something involving the Norse god Baldur (invulnerable to everything on Earth but mistletoe) that would be easier to follow.

You never said such question to me so simple. Not my fault.
I didn't think I would need to spell out what a hypothetical situation was and I have been assuming you could understand what I wrote. My mistake.

Both the shield and the blade can be broken, with enough power. The shield does not have enough power to break this sword.
And here is the heart of the problem. Why does it work one way and not the other? Since you are going to try to claim some type of authority in this matter, what exactly is the break point of the WK's shield? How much power does it take to shatter it? You say it can be done and are positive Frostmourne could do it, so surely you can answer that.

I am saying that the most basic ABSOLUTE law does not carry over because it was NEVER made to carry over into other worlds, which all have their own set of rules.
Two things you are overlooking here.
1) NONE of these powers were meant to carry over into other worlds. By your approach, we have to throw them all out and we are back to the fist fight idea (which I agree could be entertaining).
2) They aren't carrying over into the world of the people they are fighting. In most of these threads a neutral battleground is assumed. That doesn't mean that the WK must bow down to WoW rules. That means a common ground must be found. In fact, now that I think about it, most battles involving ME seem to take place there. Given what you said, shouldn't that make the other side bound to ME rules?

WK is bad ass in his own world, but if you put him elsewhere, say.... right next to Doomsday..... Get my point yet?
If the flood destroyed him through sheer force, then so will Doomsday. If it was magic that did it, then Doomsday will have to settle for destroying his armor (and losing whatever bits of himself manage to puncture the WK). Will the WK beat Doomsday? No way. He can't even really hope to hurt him. He will go all incorporeal and just leave. A foe can force him to do that, but it isn't killing him which as I have been saying takes something pretty specific. His body can be destroyed. If Frostmourne connects it could destroy him (and then his ability kicks in and a tear in the fabric of reality opens up to consume him, Forstmourne, and whoever is wielding it so that the paradox of something indestructable striking something that destroys everything doesn't destroy reality). It's killing him that is difficult. In his case destroyed=/= killing.

Also, in looking over my posts I see that I probably have not been previously making this distinction. It wasn't until a recent post that I realised I wasn't so if this has lead to confusion, I apologize.

I see your point, but the whole invulnerability issue is all a matter of perspective than actuality. The WK's shield could very will be total in ME, there are other things that can make the WK's shield shatter outside his world.
What else can make it shatter? At what point does it shatter? You can't hope to answer that with anything beyond speculation. That's why trying to ignore the absolutes (that aren't readily disproven or are subjective in nature) gets you nowhere. Someone has to make the call of where that absolute runs out and it will be nothing but guess work that will not have any real agreement (and thus long winded posts like these where people seriously try to debate indestructability).

The dynamite also works to prove my point.
Do you know how they use the dynamite? Do you think they just pile a lot of it up in front of the rocks and blow it up? They use it at specific points to bring it all down with minimal effort. That isn't brute force. The wrecking ball idea is brute force and you will probably break the wrecking ball before making any serious progress. Hitting a weak point isn't brute force. Can the stone wall be overcome by brute force? Sure. Two things to consider though. 1) We can make a realistic guess as to how much force it will take (and it will be considerable) as we can take measurements such as the size and density of the stone we are trying to destroy.
2) The stone wall isn't being protected by some kind of magical spell. It is just stone that has a known breaking point.
We can't measure the WK's shield strength or Frostmourne's (apparent) ability to overcome shielding. We can do nothing but guess as to how the two actually relate to one another.

Many have said that I need to unlearn alot of things, but that is beside the point. Stop telling me I am totally wrong and prove that I am totally wrong, cause it gets tiring to hear from people that I must unlearn what I have learned because by their divine right they are always wrong.
Given how much you have misunderstood my Superman example, despite numerous attempts to explain what you are not getting about it, I don't believe anything I say or do will prove to you how wrong you are. If many truly have said that to you, then take their advice. There's a saying along these lines. Jerks are actually fairly rare so if you think everyone you meet is a jerk, maybe it's you who is the jerk. I'm not calling you a jerk. I am saying that if a lot of people truly are telling you that you are wrong on some things (by your own words) there is the good chance that you are actually wrong (or that you're surrounded by idiots).

Frostmourne has more power than the WK's shield, and its all attacking a single concentrated point. Logic says the shield will break.
Here is where it breaks down. Frostmourne being more powerful than his shield is purely assumption. Could it be? Sure. Is it? Pure guesswork. There is no scale to measure this. Logic says you don't know that it will do what you think it will. You believe it will, but you don't know. That is part of the problem. There is no basis to make that assumption beyond the assumptions that any shield can be overcome with enough force (faulty) and that Frostmourne has such force (unprovable). Unless you can tell me at what point his shield breaks and show that Frostmourne in fact meets that power level, all you're doing is making a chain of assumptions built on a faulty premise. Is that clear enough?

The rest makes no sense to me. Care to explain it?
I'm honestly about to the point that I am going to stop trying to explain. As sad as it may sound I have run this by at least one person in real life. She understood with crystal clarity what I was saying. I had to do it because I wanted to be sure I wasn't just using unclear communication. She is also a scifi/fantasy buff. She readily understood the indestructable means indestructable principle and thought the idea of overcoming it with brute force was absurd. Now, take that for what you will. At this point I no longer believe I am misrepresenting my case in a way that is hard to follow and thus far your rebuttals don't seem to follow anything resembling logic or reason.

I am well aware that fantasy doesn't conform, but we can see similiarities in rules that we can try to make sense of this. Now what are you saying? That we can't possibly make rules for this? That every thing is to be taken literall? Then take everything literal, maces don't get affected by the shield. If you take one thing literal, you have to take EVERYTHING literal. Now make up your mind.
I did make up my mind. I spelled out that taken literally I agree that a mace would work. I could debate the author's intent, but it would just be my guess and would therefore serve no purpose in this thread.

I am wrong? Then prove me wrong.
I've tried repeatedly but you just can't seem to get what I am saying. Either you truly don't understand or are willfully not trying to understand. I have demonstrated that I understand you're stance with my replies. You have not done so in return. You continue to debate a point that is no point (Doomsday) and has nothing to do with the situation I put forth. If you can't see that then there is no point in me trying to continue to explain it.

Steven does not clearly favor one author over the other, he clearly favors Sargeras as a great being than the WK. It would be like having a blade of grass against a wave. Sargeras' power is practically godlike. It is godlike. The whole thing about this small wraith still standing against Sargeras after a great blade coming down at the hands of someone who has destroyed entire worlds and devoured their magics.
Have you ever heard the story of David and Goliath? Or do you watch the news and see how the most powerful military on Earth (this is a fact) is possibly not winning against a group that is so militarily inferior it's like a bad joke? Incredibly powerful and expensive fighter planes that require considerable training to be able to operate efficiently can be brought down by a person of questionable ability, minimal training, and an inexpensive rocket. Power isn't everything and in some situations it counts for absolutely nothing. I believed by your comment that you took some type of martial arts training and I would have thought that they would have driven that point home very early on.

Stop belittling Steven, it REALLY gets under my skin...... Belittle me if you wish, but I ask you, BACK OFF of Steven. :smallmad:
I get the impression Steven can fight his own battles.

And whats with the exact copy of Tyrant's post?I'm wondering that myself.

[EvilElitest]

Of course if you involve Sauron to not involve Takhisis wouldn't be playing by the same rules. She is a far more proactive god and would take the fight to the field. As far as scouting, how could he when the Dragonarmies just materialize? He won't see that coming. They will be expecting Gondorians and they will be getting Draconians. Otherwise you could argue that Raistlin had likewise used his scrying abilites to scout out the area which nullifies any advantage they would gain by Sauron's indirect help.

1) however Sauron's relationship with the WK is far more close than Takhisis and Soth's (ok that sounds wrong but)
the Wk's soul is dominated by Sauron, he is his closest and most elite servant. Soth and Kiteria are most like Mercanaries who just wish to cause general havoc on the dark godesses behalf
2) Also they aren't showing up when the Wk is marching towards gondor. The Wk and all of his forces (and i don't think Sauron counts, i just want to put this out there) just appear next to Soth and all of his forces.



I don't know if it matters, but the army is almost entirely Draconians. They are the eggs of the good dragons mutated and twisted through dark magic to serve Takhisis. So, yes they are dragons, just not the large dragons. I honestly don't know where that puts them on the fear immunity/nonimmunity scale.
Draconicans are not immune or resistent to fear, poison, cold, despair, terror, Morgul Blades, Black Shadow, Black Breath or what not so it isn't as big as an advantage as it is claimed. Also most of their troops are goblins or orges or humans, vastly inferior to these guys in terms of ablity, and even these guys the actual dangerous ones (the Spell casters) make up the smallest percent of the group. They are nasty, but not enough to make a real difference against the Wk's huge numbers




I don't think so. Here's the thing, For -all- of the Witch-Kings battles Sauron looked over and scouted the battle first, right? I assume this mainly because Sauron would be a total -moron- not to.

So, in order for the Witch-King to have the proper troops that he would normally use we must fairly say that Sauron scouted the battle feild first and they know what they should use.

Sauron -effecting- the battlefeild beyound that, however, is overkill. As the Witch-King never had Sauron work under him beyond that point.

All assumptions though. I don't know if Sauron does that, but I think he would.

Also, if the army -does- teleport to where they attack then Saurons power means nothing. How they do this though, I have no idea.
Sauron does do that, in all of his battles (angmar, Pelenor fields, Morgul ect).



I think force can "destroy" him though. But he comes back afterwards. From what I remember he and the other Nazguls were killed by a spell that animated water and made it crash upon them, correct?

Here's the thing. If the river was magic, then this isn't evidence. If it's normal water however, and just animated, then the force behind the crashing river "killed" them.

If not, all we have to go by is interpritating it literally. And if we do that, so long as you don't try to cut him with a sword, it will effect him. And, technically, the force behind the blow.
1) The water was magical itself, the horses and riders in the foam and the "river's wrath" it is like being hit by a cascade of holy water if your a wraith. The holyness is hurting you
2) Even then, they weren't destroyed, they were defeated and had to get new mounts in mordor, but they didn't suffer the Wk's fate when he was shanked
3) But the force wouldn't do anything. It wouldn't kill him, it wouldn't break his bones, his spell is still active (the thing that broke the spell was the blade itself). I suppose you could hit him an knock him over, but you wouldn't inflict physical damage to him (through you'd inconvenience him certainly)



It can still steal souls, but is no longer indestructible. It would take extremly epic magic -to- break it, however.
We don't know how Frostmourn can be destroyed, it hasn't been revealed as of yet. We can imagine, we can suppose, but we can't say for sure. It might require the death of Arthas, it might require the destruction of the rest of the frozen throne, i might require the Death of Kil'Jaeden, we don't know. Now a being who can break the laws and rules could destroy it (like an elder evil) but we can't simply assume an epic weapon can break it, just like an epic weapon can't break the One ring.




Now we have come to the point in our discussion, kids, where people are twisting other peoples words!
No they are just pointing out the major flaw in the arguments


Rowanomicon
But he just said he added a few of his touches like the horse bit, the river may not have any other special effect than to rush at them. He may have improved it somehow, but it doesn't say anything aside from that.

The horses and the riders charge the Nazgul, and Gandalf wouldn't just add magic for dramatic effect


But you misunderstand me. I think that sheer force can break his defenses and hurt him significantly. And its possible to destroy him with overpowering force, otherwise he wouldn't have died from that water spell.

Except you have no backing for this "Sheer force theory" other than your wanting it to happen. The Barrow blade isn't epic, it is using a specific enchantment needed to destroy the WK's shield. The water has magical effects and is part of Elrond's power and that defeats him at Rivendale, not sheer force. So direct magic can hurt him, just not enchanted weapons, regardless of specific powers

I mean, you could directly hit him with sheer magical force like a powerful holy spell, or you could hit crush him under a planet (the latter wouldn't kill him, he just couldn't do anything, and would most likely leave his body to return to Sauron.


Alright.
dude, just use quotes please, i don't know what your referring too



I think that enough magical force could break it, or some really powerful brute force. Maybe doomsday, maybe AO from FR, or perhaps, as mentioned prevouisly, Q. I dunno the full extent of most of their powers, so I can only guess, but I am pretty sure that those are powerful enough to suffice.

AO can use direct magical powers. however Saravok's sword couldn't hurt him, Twinkle and Iceing death couldn't hurt him as they lack the specific requirements nessarcy. Also AO can break the rules at his whim



Tyrant
To be fair, both me and Steven never took a stance on Frostmourne destructibility. What we did say was that it was indestructable to the WK's shield. I stick with that comment.

What me and Steve have been thinking of is destroying him from the beginning.

I don't recall saying by the power of Awesome, and niether has Steve.

Actually yes you have. Your only given reason for his shield being breakable is through epic weapons, which are clearly not the case when it comes to breaking the WK's shield, see my prior point on the barrow blade

..


I am well aware that the barrow blade is not epic, just it's spells are his weakness. I don't deny that and I can understand that. What I do deny is that divinity is weaker than this spell and what I can't understand is why couldn't this spell, something weaker than a deities' own personal power, could counter every other thing thrown at it. Absolute rules, again, are worthless.
Absolute rules are cannon and thus totally applicable to the current case. The reason why the Barrow blade could hurt him is because of their unique enchantment, not because of their raw power. Raw power has nothing to do with it. Unless you have a weapon that has the power to ignore any protection, then such a weapon will not be able to harm him, no matter how good it is


I am well aware of what your saying, but I am not convinced with it because of the major flaw of Doomsday who smashed his face. He is not made of kyrptonite, so therefore this hypothetical he should not have been able to do that. Yet he DID. Your hypothetical point makes little sense to me. Try again please, for I haven't gotten the main idea just yet.
In a hypothetical world, where Super man was only able to be armed


GIVE ME THE QUOTE! I obvoiusly haven't seen a direct quote yet otherwise I would not be asking! And if we take everything literal, then a mace oughta bypass his defense. If you don't, then that whole 'no other blade can hurt him' is just a sorry excuse without any real backing. If I am wrong, smite me with logic and some REAL backing.

He just gave you the quote. I gave you the quote, thrice now.

"No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
This is the fourth time i've provided this quote to you directly. I've given it to Walking target one more time


You never said such question to me so simple. Not my fault. Both the shield and the blade can be broken, with enough power. The shield does not have enough power to break this sword. Stop twisting my words, and shoving them down my mouth. I am saying that the most basic ABSOLUTE law does not carry over because it was NEVER made to carry over into other worlds, which all have their own set of rules. WK is bad ass in his own world, but if you put him elsewhere, say.... right next to Doomsday..... Get my point yet? My logic is not destroying my arguement, your twisted version of my logic is just annoying.
Please, just adress the point. By accusing Tryant of being a word twister instead of actually countering what he is saying and acknolage his very direct point, you just weaken your own argument and leave his point unadressed

Never says a protection spell, just a spell that knit his unseen sinews together. Where is the protection spell?

That is a spell. the thing that keeps any other blade, even if wielded by mightier hand from hurting him,


The quote said that no other blade could have hurt so much, though someone stronger has used it. Doesn't say that no other blade could hurt him peroid. And I don't believe Aragon is an expert in magic 101. Is he? Am I wrong in my assumption?
1) No other blade could break the spell
2) Aragorn is an expert, he is a master of lore even by Gandalf's standards, last king of the Dunidian who made the bloody weapons, and the most powerful human period.
3) And your twisting the quote when it clearly says something different. Don't nitpick to or twist words to make it favortable


I see your point, but the whole invulnerability issue is all a matter of perspective than actuality. The WK's shield could very will be total in ME, there are other things that can make the WK's shield shatter outside his world.
And tryant counter, re counter, then super re countered this point, and you haven't acknolaged it, your point being?


Now your just being silly.... of course it steals souls. Stop being a kid about this and act grown up. I have the maturity of a 9 year old and yet I still manage to be civil (most of the time).

And yet you aren't even countering Tryants major point against your entire argument, your point being


Many have said that I need to unlearn alot of things, but that is beside the point. Stop telling me I am totally wrong and prove that I am totally wrong, cause it gets tiring to hear from people that I must unlearn what I have learned because by their divine right they are always wrong. Sound familiar?
He did. You didn't counter it, or even make a reference to its existence, but he most certainly did


A well placed strike does not require too much force, this is true. But lets think about it this way then. Frostmourne has more power than the WK's shield, and its all attacking a single concentrated point. Logic says the shield will break.
And lets consider this, that your logic is utterly flawed and without basis because you are ignoring the evidence about the WK shield, namely that power level (and ignoring the fact that you didn't actually prove that Frostmourne is more powerful) because the WK shield does not rely on actual power level.


What your saying is you need holy to bring down his defenses, not a well placed strike. So it doesn't help you out.
The rest makes no sense to me. Care to explain it?
That you need a specific enchantment, not a certain power level to break his spell


Steven does not clearly favor one author over the other, he clearly favors Sargeras as a great being than the WK. It would be like having a blade of grass against a wave. Sargeras' power is practically godlike. It is godlike. The whole thing about this small wraith still standing against Sargeras after a great blade coming down at the hands of someone who has destroyed entire worlds and devoured their magics.

And your point being? Sargeras' power level is irrelvant, if he wished to destroy the WK (with a sword at least) he needs to have a holy one (He could defeat him using his own raw magic but that is besides the point)

Frostmourn isn't made by Sargeras officially and its powers are what is at stake here, not is creation.

Tyrant..... grow up. Stop belittling Steven, it REALLY gets under my skin...... Belittle me if you wish, but I ask you, BACK OFF of Steven.



Bajo, grow up. Whining is all fine and good, but in the end, all your doing is repeating an argument with more holes in it than the cheese i am eating right not (and it is some decisions cheese i do declare, i adore the fine food of France, yummy). Make the effort to at least counter the actual point he is making, rather than complaining about how unfair he is being and how much he is twisting your words. Your dancing around the issue, not actually confroting it


EE

THeres too much to that you have written.... will get back that HUGE post later...

good luck


And whats with the exact copy of Tyrant's post?
posting error



Rowan, the main point is on one on one, it is Soth's fists vs. the WK.



According to my book, draconians are not immune to fear or curses but they do have spell resistance. Might that help?

nope, Dragons do, not them


The goblins, humans and ogres likely wouldn't run. They'd be terrified yes but they work around dragons a lot (and I'm positive that many are full grown, though doubtless there are some younger ones. Even Fireflash, who was relatively young by dragon standards noted that he was older than Flint) and would be used to that sort of thing to an extent. Plus the draconians have very powerful discipline, goblins wouldn't run if the bulk of their army stayed to fight, and the humans and ogres are fighting for money, which is a crappy incentive but a better one than dying on the spot.

The Wk's fear is of far greater maganitude. The entire gondorian city, people use to fighting the Fell Riders, weren't even able to fight back. It isn't discipline, it isn't about experience Gondor had both and it didn't work out so well. It is about raw power of fear

EE, what other undead does Soth have? I know there're his thirteen uber skeletons who took on Palanthas, three banshees...anything else?


Fell beasts are fast, yes. But the trip from Minas Morgul to Mount Doom is a straight line. They don't seem magically enhanced so natural physics affects them, and it is very hard to turn when going that fast. Ever drive a car at sixty kmh and try to turn a corner?
Well i can't drive yet, but still

They are however nimble enough to fly above Minas Tirith and not get shot, and they at least have raw speed going for them. They just have to circle dragons and let the Nazgul do the work




I vote that for the army battle there should be some neutral ground. At one end, WK's stronghold (Angmar's capital maybe?) and at the other end Soth's (I recommend Sanction as opposed to Soth's castle since it was the home base for the Blue Wing), each with their immediate landscape for, say, a mile. Between them is a combination of grassland, forest, and hilly mountains for them all to fight in. Sauron does his whole 'scouting the situation' thing, and Takhisis adds some support of her own. Maybe some evil clerics, I don't know. Any thoughts on all this?
Take out both Sauron and Takhisis (Or at least make it clear what they can do specifically) and throw in Soth's castle and Minas Morgul and we are good

from
EE

[Matar]

1) The water was magical itself, the horses and riders in the foam and the "river's wrath" it is like being hit by a cascade of holy water if your a wraith. The holyness is hurting you
2) Even then, they weren't destroyed, they were defeated and had to get new mounts in mordor, but they didn't suffer the Wk's fate when he was shanked
3) But the force wouldn't do anything. It wouldn't kill him, it wouldn't break his bones, his spell is still active (the thing that broke the spell was the blade itself). I suppose you could hit him an knock him over, but you wouldn't inflict physical damage to him (through you'd inconvenience him certainly)
Quote:

1: I just don't see. They animated the river to the dead, they didn't creat the water themselves. If they did, then I could buy it, but I don't remember them doing that.

Also, while im fine with you saying the water was magic and can take that fine enough. Saying that it was turned into holy water needs a quote.

2: True, but in a duel being destroyed for awhile is the same as being defeated.

3: I disagree. We have both agreed that without the prophicy of sheild any weapon could harm the WK, magic or not. Simply being undead doesn't seem to grant you any immunitys to what would kill a normal man. As in, having your head removed or being shoped in half makes them as dead as anyone else.

Hit the WK's at about neck level hard enough and off it will go. Not saying Soth is strong enough to do that however. In fact, I highly doubt it. That would be a freaking insane feat of strength, but I know nothing of the dude.

Also, a bit of info about the Barrow-Blade.


The Barrow-blades were daggers or short swords forged in Arnor in the early Third Age. They were found by the Hobbits in the barrow of a barrow-wight and given to them by Tom Bombadil. Frodo's sword broke in the confrontation with the Nazgûl on the banks of the River near Rivendell and was replaced by Sting. Sam, Merry and Pippin kept their swords.

Merry's barrow-blade played a major role in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. It was enchanted with the power to harm the Witch-king of Angmar himself by a weaponsmith of Arthedain long before. When he stabbed the Witch-king in the knee with it, it broke the spell protecting his undead flesh and pierced his knee. He fell to the ground, and this gave Eowyn the chance to kill him.

The Barrow-blades were described as red in colour, with "flowing chararacters of Numenor" inscribed on them. They would not rust, so long as they are kept in their sheaths and are "wrought with spells for the doom of Mordor".

From here. (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-blades)

I fail to see why someone with the resource of a great enchanter can't just make something that can break the Witch-Kings enchantment. That's how the Barrow-Blade was made, and they made quite a few of them it seems.

[EvilElitest]

1: I just don't see. They animated the river to the dead, they didn't creat the water themselves. If they did, then I could buy it, but I don't remember them doing that.

Um, the stream was only knee deep. Then suddenly a huge massive river appears out of no where. That is pretty much summoning a giant water (which apparently had Wrath according to the quote) using the magic of rivendale the enchanted valley. That is pretty much a direct magical attack.


Also, while im fine with you saying the water was magic and can take that fine enough. Saying that it was turned into holy water needs a quote.
They never say the word holy in the entire LOTRS series, i was paraphazing. It was a "good magic" attack if you will, Elrond/Rivendales magic, mixed in with the attacking power of Gandalf (white horses and what not)


2: True, but in a duel being destroyed for awhile is the same as being defeated.

1) When the Nazgul were hit by the water, their bodies weren't destroyed, just crippled. So in a battle if that happen, in a one on one duel that would be true. However in a large battle, even if the Wk is crippled, he can still just hang around without doing anything and let his army go one

For example, Soth could bury him under a mountain in theory. the Wk can't do anything now, he's stuck, but the battle isn't over yet as he is not dead, his army can keep going. now normally he'd just leave his body and return to sauron your right, but as he is not allowed to do that in this situation, he could just hang tight.
2) Also it is worth noting one Nazgul wasn't accounted for in the flood's damage. I guess the head gu


3: I disagree. We have both agreed that without the prophicy of sheild any weapon could harm the WK, magic or not. Simply being undead doesn't seem to grant you any immunitys to what would kill a normal man. As in, having your head removed or being shoped in half makes them as dead as anyone else.
Wait, you confusing hte prophecy with the WK's actual powers. The shield spell is not the prophecy, that is the "no living man shall hinder me" thing. The spell is what protects him from being harmed. You hit his head, he could get knocked over (Aragorn drove him back without actually hitting him) and maybe you could keep him out of hte fight (through you'd lose your weapon) because the spell protects him for direct weapon harm (the exception being weapons that can destroy all magic or have anti undead good effects

now soth's firsts are able to hurt wraiths, so he could try to beat the WK to death. I don't know if he could pull it off because you know, the Wk has a mace and flaming sword against him, but he can hurt him




Also, a bit of info about the Barrow-Blade.



From here. (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-blades)

I fail to see why someone with the resource of a great enchanter can't just make something that can break the Witch-Kings enchantment. That's how the Barrow-Blade was made, and they made quite a few of them it seems.

Wait, your point? In LOTRS you can make enchantement upon blades. The Barrow blades are particularly good on their own, but they are able to hurt beings like wights and Wraiths so they were mass produced. I don't really see your point. Are you saying somebody who could make weapons like these could logically be able to case a spell to destory the Wk's shield? If so, it doesn't work entirely, because LOTRS magic doesn't work that way, if you can make enchanted weapons that doesn't mean you can cast uber spells, through some people could
from
EE

[Tyrant]

I fail to see why someone with the resource of a great enchanter can't just make something that can break the Witch-Kings enchantment. That's how the Barrow-Blade was made, and they made quite a few of them it seems.

I don't see any problem with your theory. If something such as that were used, it should hurt him in the same manner. If a weapon were made with the specific ability to hurt him, it would bypass his defense. By that, I don't mean that the enchanter would say "Thou shalt smite the WK" and enchant that into the blade. Anything that targeted him. If it targeted undead, sure. Targets wraiths, sure. Targets incorporeal targets, sure. Targets guys in all black with a pointy iron crown, sure. I have no problem with that idea and it sounds fairly reasonable. I would go so far as to say that a weapon that deals positive energy damage would work. A holy weapon may be a better phrasing. Holy to the gods of light, anyway.

[Mr. Scaly]

nope, Dragons do, not them

I have the stats right in front of my eyes now, including the WotC copyright sign. Trust me, they have spell resistance. And they're immune to disease apparently...


The Wk's fear is of far greater maganitude. The entire gondorian city, people use to fighting the Fell Riders, weren't even able to fight back. It isn't discipline, it isn't about experience Gondor had both and it didn't work out so well. It is about raw power of fear

When Kitiara attacked the High Clerist's tower she had three dragon's with her. The defenders, who'd stuck together through seige, betrayal, abandonment and constant attack from the previous day broke and ran. Only Sturm could buy time to trigger the trap. Her armies simply moved back to give the dragons time to do their work.


Well i can't drive yet, but still

They are however nimble enough to fly above Minas Tirith and not get shot, and they at least have raw speed going for them. They just have to circle dragons and let the Nazgul do the work

True but a simple arrow from Legolas brought one down, magic bow or not. A lightning bolt from a blue dragon, which physics dictates is faster than any ordinary arrow, would do much worse. And they're not fools. They'd travel in pairs at the least.


Take out both Sauron and Takhisis (Or at least make it clear what they can do specifically) and throw in Soth's castle and Minas Morgul and we are good


I wish I knew more about Soth's castle, other than its history.

[EvilElitest]

I don't see any problem with your theory. If something such as that were used, it should hurt him in the same manner. If a weapon were made with the specific ability to hurt him, it would bypass his defense. By that, I don't mean that the enchanter would say "Thou shalt smite the WK" and enchant that into the blade. Anything that targeted him. If it targeted undead, sure. Targets wraiths, sure. Targets incorporeal targets, sure. Targets guys in all black with a pointy iron crown, sure. I have no problem with that idea and it sounds fairly reasonable. I would go so far as to say that a weapon that deals positive energy damage would work. A holy weapon may be a better phrasing. Holy to the gods of light, anyway.

wait what, i've been saying this the whole time.



Holy actually wouldn't hurt him, at least holy weapons, as Glamring and narzil are holy. But anything else yeah. A holy weapon that is also anti undead will hurt him a LOT however. Holy direct attacks will hurt him.


Mr. Scaly

1) What source?
2) But that wasn't just Dragonfear, that was also moral issues. With the WK, they literally couldn't move. At all, they couldn't bring themselves to attack the giant army that was coming for him
3) In D&D terms, it goes the same distance, and Legolas got one that was swooping down. I realize they are mortal, but with the fear/black break/black Shadow/despair/Nazgul shooting deathly arrows at them, it will be challenging. Also once a fell beast is downed, it can just be replaced
4) It is actually very good, a nine leveled fortress on a hill with a single bridge leading to it, with an actual keep in the middle. It is still small, but nasty
from
EE

[Tyrant]

wait what, i've been saying this the whole time.
So have I. I just thought it best to state, again, that I agreed with it.

Holy actually wouldn't hurt him, at least holy weapons, as Glamring and narzil are holy. But anything else yeah. A holy weapon that is also anti undead will hurt him a LOT however. Holy direct attacks will hurt him.
I guess I should have clarified that when I meant holy, I am talking about weapons blessed by the gods of light (I presume via their clerics or possibly directly). I generally assumed they were effective against all evil and undead in general. Most of my D&D knowledge comes second hand through the miniatures game, the novels, Neverwinter Nights 2, and skimming through the core rule books once or twice so if holy won't do that or if that isn't the right term, then my bad.

Not that I can think of anyone within the Dragonarmy that would have such a weapon. The only real shot I see is Soth if he had his old sword and if it were such a sword to begin with. I think that would mostly be conjecture however. I don't think Kitiara has anything special as far as her sword. If they were included, Vermminaard or Ariakas might have something like that blessed by Takhisis, though I doubt they have such a weapon or that she would imbue it with the ability to hurt undead without it being something more all encompassing.


Mr. Scaly

1) What source?
I know in the story itself they were spell resistant. Raistilin made a big deal about it the first time he tried using magic against one.

[EvilElitest]

So have I. I just thought it best to state, again, that I agreed with it.

Fair enough, just wanted to clarify.



I guess I should have clarified that when I meant holy, I am talking about weapons blessed by the gods of light (I presume via their clerics or possibly directly). I generally assumed they were effective against all evil and undead in general. Most of my D&D knowledge comes second hand through the miniatures game, the novels, Neverwinter Nights 2, and skimming through the core rule books once or twice so if holy won't do that or if that isn't the right term, then my bad.

A weapon that is simply holy or good wouldn't do, through if combined with anti undead/anti incorporeal qualities would work great and could possible one hit him
Blessed weapons in D&D just do damage to evil

Holy magic or water would do amazing however




Not that I can think of anyone within the Dragonarmy that would have such a weapon. The only real shot I see is Soth if he had his old sword and if it were such a sword to begin with. I think that would mostly be conjecture however. I don't think Kitiara has anything special as far as her sword. If they were included, Vermminaard or Ariakas might have something like that blessed by Takhisis, though I doubt they have such a weapon or that she would imbue it with the ability to hurt undead without it being something more all encompassing.

Vermminaard has an evil mace i think, Soth has a normal sword, and maybe a holy sword (but that would hurt him if he used it)



I know in the story itself they were spell resistant. Raistilin made a big deal about it the first time he tried using magic against one.
Ok fair enough, but the fear will still be nasty certainly

from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

No deities. This is a battle between WK and Soth and their underlings. You can never have a guy that commands the subjects of the vs. Thread, as it wouldn't be a battle between those subjects anymore.


Tryant summed my words up quite nicely They would be your words, now wouldn't they?


1) The old gods could have made it, it helps them after all.
2) When i say origin is irrelevant, i really mean that, how Frostmourn was made is totally irrelevant in this dicussions, it's physical powers are what matters, not how it was made. 1)Ummm... Sorry, but I can't help but notice they've been locked beneath Azeroth for... more than 10'000 years. :smallamused:
2) How it was made is totally irevelant, but my point is who made it. Its damage type agrees with demons, chaotic... C H A O T I C. Fits extremely well, and yes, we can conclude very well that it is of demonic origins. Put forth a theory that makes sense.


1) I am totally aware that there is no point to speak of. The "Power level" of the weapon makes no difference, as "Power level" isn't what allowed the Barrow blade wasn't able to break the Spell of the WK because of some arbitrary power level or because it was "Powerful" it was able to break the shield because it had a specific enchantment needed to destroy the shield.
2) And why is it that WoW gets to have special powers outside of universes, but LOTRS does not. Favoritism some? 1) No, you miss the point completely.
Let me explain this.
WK has it given, that "no other blade" can harm him. That is his absolute... which is applied to LotRs.
WK gets taken out of it. New possibilities need to be considered, as his absolute doesn't exactly apply at full in another world with stronger magic.
2) Well, that depends, do you want them to have special powers? Because I can actually change my argument to that.
I never siad the WK lost any of his powers, I'm just saying that saying his shield is unaffected by ALL weapons in a magic setting above that of ME is a useless claim.


1) So? The orcs are described as being totally and utterly loyal, ready to kill themselves on his command. As long as he is around, the orcs won't break. There aren't even a 100 dragons
3a) Fell Beasts are freaking fast, and aren't as small as you say. The Dragons in the Blue Army are young and not as powerful as they could be, and Fell beasts are really really fast (getting from the Black Gate to Mount Doom in a few mins).
3B) The Nazgul fear, despair, black Shadow, black breath, and morgul blades can do the job. Remember, the Nazgul can use niffty arrows with the black breath on it. THe dragons, and certainly their riders will be have a lot of problems,
1) And you know the limit of dragons how? And whether or not theres over 50 or so, you underestimate severely their effectiveness. Whats to stop them from flying around the army and hitting the flank?
3a) Yet one can get its head chopped off by a human lady with a sword. And you seem to act as if dodging 50 dragons in their airspace is as easy as pie.
3b) Given if the Nazgul can fly and dodge the fire/acid/gas/lightning breath coming their way, as well as avoiding the dragons head on. Hard to fight and fly at the same time, don't you think?


A) It is utterly in ruins, not a good defensible position, and as of such, of little actual use.
B) He only barely owned it, it was fully under his control only for a few days
C) It isn't really his. Angmar and Morgul were the WK's actual realms, but Osgiliath was only temporarily dominated city
A) Utterly in ruins, but it could be useful to avoid the dragons line of fire. I think it would be a good spot to set encounters.
B) He owned it nevertheless.
C) Angmar would be a pain to bring in anyway. We know the terrain between Morgul and Osgiliath better.


A) It is actually his, he owned it and used it
B) We are counting his forces from the region, and as of such, we should count their native homeland
C) It is actually useful Not that big of a deal.
B) I know nothing of Dragonlance landscape, but wouldn't it be open field-ruined castle-icy land which has no place-Enclosed canyon. Honestly, I don't see it fitting.
C) But that would give the WK an edge. Soth gets stuck with his old ruined castle, while the WK seems to get a whole working fortress. Osgiliath would offer as much usefullness as Soths castle, and seems to fit more in whatever landscape we have.


1) The point is they literally couldn't attack his army, despite the fact they were attacking their city, without Gandalf's aid they wouldn't have even fired back
2) In both cases those were heros. I don't deny that Fell beasts are mortal, but they are far from pushovers.
3) In any case, Fell Beasts aren't suppose to directly attack the Dragons (that would be moronic, they'd be slaughtered your right) There job is too support the Nazgul, who are far more dangerous and can Weaken and slay the Dragons themselves with their awesome powers. 1) This does not properly counter my point, and the dragons don't have to worry about such issues, since they need only to torch the mount and send the wraith falling on some poor orc (killing it in the process with the Black Breath), or just bite the neck and kill it without even licking the WK. Soth would not worry about his soldiers getting cramps after shooting an arrow either.
2) Eowyn seemed to be pretty new to the hero buisness, even with a good heritage. And shes still a woman who didn't have good strength who still separated a fell beast's head from its body.
3) That makes them primary targets, and even more reason for them to be targeted first. Can nine Nazgul drive their mounts well with 50 pursuers all over? I don't think so.


The Citidel is slow moving and crumbersom. Its main purpose is to transport troops over the mountains and get them over harsh terrain, and act as a troop bomber. The Mordor Forces need to win the main battle, as the Cideal acts mostly as a transport, not a fighting weapon (mages aside). Remember, it took like 3 people to destroy the original. Once the Fortress is isolated, the Nazgul can use their fear, despair and black breath. Considering most of the troops, (who fly) will already have been dropped off in the main battle, and the mages would use up their spells, it actually isn't that hard. THe Fell Beasts can pick people off, and the Nazgul themselves are pretty nasty It moves nonetheless, and therefore it can move over Morgul, and drop soliders within it to take the fortress from within. Minas Morgul has no luxury to defend it from a flying transport the size of a castle.
The soldiers could flee to citadel, it would not be impossible. And wouldn't Soth be in that fort.


1) Actually, in the quote that was provided it says "no other blade" so actually, yeah. We already showed this quote
"No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
2) Yet again, the protection is a spell. The fact that he is invisible is the wraith thing. Frostmourns Chaos damage can get through the latter, the incorporeal thing the former but it needs both 1) You have a problem with taking things not literally. First off, you have no idea that the bitter refers to pian or grief (Which I believe makes sense... seriously, this great wraith lord gets stabbed by a hobbit, and doesn't feel any shame?), it does not say. You cannot assume the actual meaning.
2) And a spell can be overcome in almost any setting, with a greater amount of magic or a sword of power. You have not given me reason to dictate that Middle Earth is any different.

SNOW AND ICE
"Lossoth, the Snow Men of Forchel ... they were afraid of the Witch-king, who (they said) could make frost or thaw at his will." - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322
Finally, i was looking for that one
SNOW AND ICE II
"But the snow men were uneasy; for they said they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: 'Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.'" - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322

Weather control man[/QUOTE] No... Sauron has weather control, not WK. No weather control is mentioned, just the fact his power wanes in summer.


Quality can only do so much. In WWI what made the machine gun so devastating was that the people against it were morons and charged the damn thing. The WK isn't a moron and knows how to use his numbers, with some actual very good troops very well. The Dragons aren't even a hundred, the are barely over half a hundred, and every one lost is lost for ever. There are only 28 unique undead in the entire army. There is one flying fortress. The total number of the blue dragon flight army is in the low tens of thousands, most likely not even half a hundred thousand, while the Nazgul can command almost half a million. Magic of the Nazgul is absurdly dangerous and can take most of the army into confusion and chaos, and against normal troops the WK has hte advantage. Goblins are far weaker than any of the WK's troops, and the Easterlings, Haradrim, Hill men, Men of Angmar, Evil Dunidan of the North, Southerons, Swarthy men, Swertlings, Uruk-hai, half trolls, half orcs, goblin men, men orcs, Mumikil, deep haradrim, trolls, Olag hai, Men of Umber, Black Nudimorians, Barrow Wights, Men of Morgul, Lesser wraiths, silent wathcers, White wolves, Wargs, Spirit Wargs and what ever other nasty guys they can produce are enough to be very nasty for the Dragon folk, along with the more crappy orc and wolf troops. The army of Soth simply doesn't have the force to match, quality can defeat numbers, but it needs to be close enough in terms of strength to make a difference. *sigh* First, the machine gun was new, therefore they were not expecting it. If they had, I'm sure they would not have been so moronic. Now we have on Soth's side the machine gun... several types of it (metaphorically, I don't mean machine guns, just unique soldiers).
And could it be that you are just over classifying the sodiers? I seriously do not believe these guys were in the Morgul army. Also, should we even involve Angmar?


F) No and no, because he is immune to being frozen (no body) and he can' be crushed. He could be send flying and be pretty much taken out of the battle. The foot itself would destroy thing. Being driven through the earth into magma would however. Ummm... Frieza is an alien in DBZ who destroys planets... and has no ice powers. Its really a naming theme for his family, like his brother Cooler, or his father king Cold. Just thought to point that out, because you have no apparent knowledge of DBZ.


No he just notes the massive flaw in your argument, or the basic double standard and/or misunderstanding when it comes to the actual shield and weapon effects If that is a fancy way of saying he's ignoring me, then you are correct. If not...
He seems to be confusing what I am saying, and attempts to discredit my logic by twisting it to a meaning that isn't even similar to what I'm saying.


Yeah (wait, is a kamehameha a magical attack or a phyical bomb?) because it needs the specific requirements. It is quite clear that magical power, magic levels, and magic origin aren't the issue in terms of what teh Shield is weak against, it is weak against a specific type of attack. Abiding by established fact isn't poor show, breaking rules to suits ones own purpose is. You haven't found any actual flaws in Tryants reasoning, in fact you haven't really acknowledged his main point, IE the favoritism that such an argument relies upon Like your argument relies on favoritism?
Let me tell you something, go to Youtube and look up DBZ and educate yourself on its uberness, because you know nothing about it.
As for weakness. Again... DOOMSDAY. You really need to acknowledge that point, and I mean actually acknowledge, not pretending to and then putting it aside because it does not relate to the argument.


What evidence? despite the established fact that the WK's shield has nothing to do with raw power, you keep insisting that raw power can somehow get around it.
You don't explain the flaw in my logic, where cannon assumptions are actually held to their word, and any inter-world relationships are actually held at a total standard, but more as an attempt to obtain a favorable outcome. Superman... Doomsday. And I am explaining your flaw, you just blank out what I'm saying.
The WK's shield isn't as dominant in other worlds, because the weapons there can be stronger than any in the WK's world of origin. Sooner or later, the WK is going to come across a sword which can bypass his shield that is not of anti-undead qualities.


1) I think you fail to grasp the point that the idea of stuff only working in one universe goes both ways
2) Then your missing the point. The raw power of a weapon is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the Wk's shield, because other more powerful weapons than the Barrow blades can't do it ether. A specific requirement is needed. 1) I never said the WK's shield failed to work. I just said that a weapon of enough power could penetrate it, without the anti-undead trait. You cannot grasp this, you deny this, and ultimately deny it, saying raw power isn't the issue. If I made a blatant claim that the shield would only work in ME, then I would be saying all weapons could harm him.
2) I see your point, you constantly restate it a hundred times per post. I have to say, I disagree. It is logical to say that a shield can be overcome once enough force is applied. What you are saying is only holy weapons can affect this guy, and nothing else. You leave it at that.


Again, the Superman argument. I'll use big bold letters this time as I am obviously not driving this point home H Y P O T H E T I C A L L Y if he were absolutely immune to everything save kryptonite, then nothing else you throw at him (again, barring reality manipulation as it can make up new rules as it goes) will hurt him. A star? No problem. Super nova? It won't even phase him. That blast the TTGL took? Won't even notice. Black Hole? He may never come back out but he will be in one piece. Big Bang? He's sneezed and felt it more than that. Getting the picture of what absolute immunity means yet? I'm not saying that one and only one sword could hurt the WK. I am saying that a sword would need to be able to overcome his magical defenses, and the quotes would lead most people to believe that brute force will get you nowhere (except dead from the black breath maybe). I hate to say it... oh wait, no I don't.
This hypothetically thing means squat, nada, nothing, because Superman has been met with something.
And I'll let you know... that is like rewriting it to favor you more, whther it is hypothecial or not.


So, very simply, explain to me why it is Frostmourne will still work as written and the WK gets told where to stick it. It is like that because you perceive it as such. I would like to claim however that I never stated that, nor implied it.


Not really because a wall of sufficient thickness of sufficiently dense stone won't break. They use dynamite against that and shatter it, not pointlessly beat on it. We tried that, now lets try a nuke.
You are rejecting the point here... completely


What seems reasonable to me is to apply this to all sides of the debate which renders things like Frostmourne usuless pieces of scrap metal with no power beyond their native world. That is what your logic leads to. Can't you see that? No, he can't see that. Because that is not really what is there.


Yes you are wrong. You keep trying to apply what is true in the real world to a fantasy world where magic exists. There is nothing in the real world that can be compared to that. Magic doesn't work by the same basic rules of the universe as we know them to work. If a spell renders something absolutely indestructable then nothing can harm it unless it can somehow undo or bypass the spell. Being an uber cheese weapon with a side of pownage beyond level 9000 doesn't give things a free pass to do that. They have to be able to for a reason beyond the rule of cool. No he is not. While fantasy tends to ignore some laws, defense can be overcome by power. Hell, in fantasy, this is even more true.


And yet, you clearly favor taking the words of the authors of one setting as absolute truth in comparison to the other which you apparently take as heresay. Again, favoritism much? You presume as much, that much isn't true. However, it should be noted that the words


But not the enemy of all life and order in LotR. Wow, that is simply idiotic. Has no point in the matter.


WoW dieites. And your point? They're still gods. They're still divine. Which is something that the WK's shield cannot reach.


No, I'm not saying that. For one thing, if something can bypass magical defenses it can hurt him. Magic can hurt him. Something which can shut down his defenses can hurt him. There are several ways around it. Brute force just isn't one of them. And you exorcise enchanted weapons, god-like weapons, demon weapons, and the such possibility of anything physical getting through.


I guess it's a good thing he isn't bound by WoW rules then isn't it? That is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Then going by that, Soth isn't bound by any of LotRs rules. WK is screwed, because Soth can now ignore his shield and just about anything that doesn't apply to him. You see how the sword is double edged?


I would love to see the long version of that argument. Any charts or graphs to go along with it? Consider your skull thick then. And I won't give you the argument because... I just am too tired to.


Given the unknown nature of Frostmourne's origins (as in how it was made, don't ramble on about Demonic origins and their likelyhood), how sure are you that it wasn't made with something that is specifically harmful to the deities of the WoW universe? This is flawed on many levels. How do you know it only applies to them? Honestly, I'm growing more and more astounded by your tactics. You hold some points, but much else is yet to actually meet the test of reason.


You're saying that bullet could hit me in the pinky and my body would simply shut down because of my status of a lesser being than Superman. That depends, would you shut up if I said yes?


And here is the heart of the problem. Why does it work one way and not the other? Since you are going to try to claim some type of authority in this matter, what exactly is the break point of the WK's shield? How much power does it take to shatter it? You say it can be done and are positive Frostmourne could do it, so surely you can answer that. :smallsigh: Once again, you misunderstand what we are trying to say. We are in no way destroying any magical porperties nor enlarging them, you are only accusing us of doing so.
Plain and simple. If one says "all blades perish upon hitting his shield" wherever they say it is the place it applies at full without question.
It is more questionable elsewhere, because new possibilities need to be considered. If it is a lower magic setting, we can assume that no weapon there can do any more than those in Middle Earth, unless there are weapons that are god like, or maybe belonging to deities. However, in a setting with stronger magic, there are sure to be stronger enchants, stronger magic, etc.
That quote doesn't apply as much, because I severely doubt that the WK's shield can stand to the strongest demon and his sword in Warcraft, because the dude is far stronger with a weapon that makes the WK's shield look like childs play in magic power. If that couldn't do it, then the WK's shield can stand against even the Valar, and likely Illuvatar, and that is illogical completely.


1) NONE of these powers were meant to carry over into other worlds. By your approach, we have to throw them all out and we are back to the fist fight idea (which I agree could be entertaining).
2) They aren't carrying over into the world of the people they are fighting. In most of these threads a neutral battleground is assumed. That doesn't mean that the WK must bow down to WoW rules. That means a common ground must be found. In fact, now that I think about it, most battles involving ME seem to take place there. Given what you said, shouldn't that make the other side bound to ME rules? 1) :smallsigh: No, by his approach, we shouldn't assume that something involving an "all blades" quote or something should be questioned and judged depending on the power of magic in that world. You are accusing us of favoritism, and you are completely mistaking our points and applying a twisted version of that for your counters.
2) No, EE said quite clearly once that all things should affect each other as they do in their world. We are not forsaking this rule. Stop accusing us of so.


I'm honestly about to the point that I am going to stop trying to explain. As sad as it may sound I have run this by at least one person in real life. She understood with crystal clarity what I was saying. I had to do it because I wanted to be sure I wasn't just using unclear communication. She is also a scifi/fantasy buff. She readily understood the indestructable means indestructable principle and thought the idea of overcoming it with brute force was absurd. Now, take that for what you will. At this point I no longer believe I am misrepresenting my case in a way that is hard to follow and thus far your rebuttals don't seem to follow anything resembling logic or reason. Thing is, the shield is not indestructible, it's been dispelled. That said, it can be overcome. Frostmourne as a power that allows it to bypass divine armor, meaning belonging to deities. Whether or not they are of a different nature is not in question, they are deities nonetheless. As for Sargeras' sword... really, strongest weapon in the existence of a high magic setting, are you honestly saying that someone of a weaker magic setting and weaker existence can honestly resist that? Because then you are championing. Bring that to your friend.


We don't know how Frostmourn can be destroyed, it hasn't been revealed as of yet. We can imagine, we can suppose, but we can't say for sure. It might require the death of Arthas, it might require the destruction of the rest of the frozen throne, i might require the Death of Kil'Jaeden, we don't know. Now a being who can break the laws and rules could destroy it (like an elder evil) but we can't simply assume an epic weapon can break it, just like an epic weapon can't break the One ring. Actually, that's a problem. Frostmourne would possess the next soul to take it up. Frostmourne has the power top infuse souls of the wielder with the LK. Arthas' death would do little. I grant that Frostmourne could probably not break the ring, as dragon fire couldn't do it either. However, Sargeras' sword could do the trick...


No they are just pointing out the major flaw in the arguments And twisting them to a point where they don't represent what we mean at all. Theres also exageration.


Except you have no backing for this "Sheer force theory" other than your wanting it to happen. The Barrow blade isn't epic, it is using a specific enchantment needed to destroy the WK's shield. The water has magical effects and is part of Elrond's power and that defeats him at Rivendale, not sheer force. So direct magic can hurt him, just not enchanted weapons, regardless of specific powers Just as you have no backing for your "WK's shield is invulnerable to everything but magic and holy weapons", besides your "I say it is so" and flawed appliance of an authors word in another world where it is not the word of god.


Actually yes you have. Your only given reason for his shield being breakable is through epic weapons, which are clearly not the case when it comes to breaking the WK's shield, see my prior point on the barrow blade Actually, I believe we both pointed out that Frostmourne has the ability to bypass divine armor. The armor of the eternals. The armor of demi-gods, gods, goddesses, the old gods (Thats right, divine doesn't mean only holy), the titans, etc. As for Sargeras' sword... really, it only makes sense that an artifact of such incredible power (strongest weapon in all of Warcraft) cremates the WK, as he is a being of far lesser power.


That you need a specific enchantment, not a certain power level to break his spell I think both can be applied honestly. If no amount of power can break it, not even a god's sword could bypass the WK's shield... and that makes sense how? (By the way, Sargeras qualifies as a god... he is a fallen Titan)


Rowan, the main point is on one on one, it is Soth's fists vs. the WK. Not counting dispell... Fist may no longer be needed to be applyed.


nope, Dragons do, not them You're sure? Because Scaly I'm sure would not make a claim if it was not backed.


They are however nimble enough to fly above Minas Tirith and not get shot, and they at least have raw speed going for them. They just have to circle dragons and let the Nazgul do the work You say the Fell Beasts can dodge fifty dragons or more? Whats to stop the dragons from breathing lightning and killing them? I don't think 9 fell beasts have a good chance, even with the Nazgul. The Dragons would try and stay away from the riders, and go for the mounts. However, technically, they could deal a lot of damage to the WK with their teeth because they're not blades. :smallamused:


1) When the Nazgul were hit by the water, their bodies weren't destroyed, just crippled. So in a battle if that happen, in a one on one duel that would be true. However in a large battle, even if the Wk is crippled, he can still just hang around without doing anything and let his army go one But if I may say, if he wasn't able to keep on the field of battle, it would be demoralizing to the orcs. If WK can no longer fight, he is as useful as a rusty sword on the verge of breaking.


True but a simple arrow from Legolas brought one down, magic bow or not. A lightning bolt from a blue dragon, which physics dictates is faster than any ordinary arrow, would do much worse. And they're not fools. They'd travel in pairs at the least. This is a good point, well made Mr. Scaly.


3) In D&D terms, it goes the same distance, and Legolas got one that was swooping down. I realize they are mortal, but with the fear/black break/black Shadow/despair/Nazgul shooting deathly arrows at them, it will be challenging. Also once a fell beast is downed, it can just be replaced I think the Fell Beasts should be just as replaceable as dragons. Does WK not have to go back to Sauron to get a new mount? If they are spawned in Minas Morgul, okay, but then the WK and his brothers would have to walk all the way back, which would take a toll on the moral of the soldiers... even more.

By the way, EE, Tyrant, thanks for allowing me to keep up. Not. :smallyuk:

[Tyrant]

Consider your skull thick then. And I won't give you the argument because... I just am too tired to.

Will post more. But please grant me one request. Wait til I edit this before responding... I'm in dire need to catch up.

Due to the first portion I am quoting, consider me not granting your request to catch up. I covered a great deal of what you just rambled on in considerable detail in a later post. The fact that you really have no long version of the argument is of no suprise to me. Your entire point is this: Brute force can overcome any defense. If I somehow am misunderstanding it, enlighten me. Now, given that I very clearly understand your point and have demonstrated such, repay me the courtesy and at least try to read what I wrote and stop with this pathetic attempt to say I am ignoring you or not paying attention. I have yet to see an answer to my real questions in my post beyond the one this is replying to. If you can say with 100% certainty that these things can bypass his shield, then at what point can it be bypassed? Pure and simple. If you know they can, then you know the limit and can somehow demonstrate that they are beyond it. How much power is enough? Don't lay on some crap about divine shields and uber pownage power. Give me a real answer.

[EvilElitest]

No deities. This is a battle between WK and Soth and their underlings. You can never have a guy that commands the subjects of the vs. Thread, as it wouldn't be a battle between those subjects anymore.

Fair enough

They would be your words, now wouldn't they?
your point


1)Ummm... Sorry, but I can't help but notice they've been locked beneath Azeroth for... more than 10'000 years. :smallamused:
2) How it was made is totally irevelant, but my point is who made it. Its damage type agrees with demons, chaotic... C H A O T I C. Fits extremely well, and yes, we can conclude very well that it is of demonic origins. Put forth a theory that makes sense.
1) Hmmmm, and yet, the've still been doing their own thing for quite a while now. Corrupting the Black Dragon flight, insect empire to the south, their actions underground. The elder gods are still very active and doing stuff. I mean, consider the guys guarding it, and how old it could have been.
2) Who made it is niffty to know, but
2a) Other beings use chaotic powers. LIke you know, the old gods. Or the naga
2b) And for hte purpose of this thread (not just general warcraft theories) the makers aren't important, because we already know its powers.


1) No, you miss the point completely.
Let me explain this.
WK has it given, that "no other blade" can harm him. That is his absolute... which is applied to LotRs.
WK gets taken out of it. New possibilities need to be considered, as his absolute doesn't exactly apply at full in another world with stronger magic.
2) Well, that depends, do you want them to have special powers? Because I can actually change my argument to that.
I never siad the WK lost any of his powers, I'm just saying that saying his shield is unaffected by ALL weapons in a magic setting above that of ME is a useless claim.

1) I see the fact that your point doesn't have evidence. Because Stronger magic isn't what is used to overcome the shield. THe barrow blades do not have stronger magic than Narzil, or Glamring, or sting, or Ocus. However the have a special unique power that only they use. What can destroy the Wk isn't magic power or magic level (Unless said item is able to break the rules or destroy magic), it is based upon specific enchantments. This isn't like a spell DC thing where if you weapon is powerful enough it can over come it, it is about having hte specific requirements needed
2) But you did. You said that the WK loses the power of his shield. His shield spell can protect him. your changing how it works to suit your own needs



1) And you know the limit of dragons how? And whether or not theres over 50 or so, you underestimate severely their effectiveness. Whats to stop them from flying around the army and hitting the flank?
3a) Yet one can get its head chopped off by a human lady with a sword. And you seem to act as if dodging 50 dragons in their airspace is as easy as pie.
3b) Given if the Nazgul can fly and dodge the fire/acid/gas/lightning breath coming their way, as well as avoiding the dragons head on. Hard to fight and fly at the same time, don't you think?

1a) Um, because mr. Scaly gave me a number. 42 blues, with some scattered blacks and greens, that is like a little over half a hundred
1b)They can do that, and they will inflict losses, however with the thrown stones, poisoned arrows and what not, they will lose guys, and every dragon (along with rider) lost is a permanent loss
3A) part of hit and run, you don't take on all 50 at the same time. You and the other eight will pick them off one by one. The fell beast just need to fly around, if the dragons spend all their time chasing them, they will be picked off by arrows (slowly mind you, but still it will be done) or thrown stones from giants/trolls. If worst comes to worst, a nazgul can ram one, shank the dragon and let himself fall, they can get new mounts
3B) The fell beast are doing the flying, the nazgul fear, despair, black breath, black shadow are all passive actions, they just need to scream and shoot. Remember, the Dragons will be suffering hte effects of the nazgul, some will flee, some will lose hope (or their riders, far more effectible) some will get to sick, some will be unable to attack, some will freeze up from teh sceams some will get show, and in the end, morgul shanked
The WK can use his more direct magic on his bigger mount.



A) Utterly in ruins, but it could be useful to avoid the dragons line of fire. I think it would be a good spot to set encounters.
B) He owned it nevertheless.
C) Angmar would be a pain to bring in anyway. We know the terrain between Morgul and Osgiliath better.
A) It would, but compared to the actual land of Angmar, it just isn't as good. I mean, it could help and couldn't hurt, but angmar would simply be better
B) Well Soth owned the city that couldn't be conquered for a brief time, but it isn't to his advantage
C) So is the blue dragon fortress. Ok, how about this. Blue dragon fortress, next to the Castle of the Black Rose, A field with the ruined city (no body in it), Angmar, with minas morgul behind agmar. basically, Where Minas Tirith is, we have Soth's fotresses, and where Ithlean is we have Angmar, and the Minas Morgul


C) But that would give the WK an edge. Soth gets stuck with his old ruined castle, while the WK seems to get a whole working fortress. Osgiliath would offer as much usefullness as Soths castle, and seems to fit more in whatever landscape we have.

Its not my fault Soth's castle is ruined (I thought it was just burned but still usable). It is an advantage to being a guy who prefers large scale conquest.


1) This does not properly counter my point, and the dragons don't have to worry about such issues, since they need only to torch the mount and send the wraith falling on some poor orc (killing it in the process with the Black Breath), or just bite the neck and kill it without even licking the WK. Soth would not worry about his soldiers getting cramps after shooting an arrow either.
2) Eowyn seemed to be pretty new to the hero buisness, even with a good heritage. And shes still a woman who didn't have good strength who still separated a fell beast's head from its body.
3) That makes them primary targets, and even more reason for them to be targeted first. Can nine Nazgul drive their mounts well with 50 pursuers all over? I don't think so.
1) Um, the Army of the Blue Dragon won't be able to attack until the nazgul are gone, and same goes for the dragons. And fell beasts won't be an instant kill, the Dragon would have to grapple it, allowing a morgul shank. Even if the fell beast is downed, one less dragon. Also the Wk could use crows and Cerbain as distractions, holding off the dragons to give his nazgul more time to let their fear do the work. As long as they are in the sky, all of Soth's forces (except his undead) will be suffering
2) She is a shield maiden, and in the house of healing chapter is said to be a better fighter than Faramir, and the Fell beast flew into her blade. They aren't usless, and can claw and bit
3) Considering the dragons will be effected by the nazgul effects, and not all 50 (Even those who can actually fight, as some will be effected by the many nazgul things i mentioned, or simply shot by a Nazgul arrows) will not be chasing them, some have to focus on the infantry. If all 50 focus on the nazgul, then the nazgul can simply fly away and keep them distracted while the infantry wins below.

It moves nonetheless, and therefore it can move over Morgul, and drop soliders within it to take the fortress from within. Minas Morgul has no luxury to defend it from a flying transport the size of a castle.
The soldiers could flee to citadel, it would not be impossible. And wouldn't Soth be in that fort.
1) I has to win the battle against the WK forces before it can even get to Morgul, which is the Wk's last stand.
2) Why would soth be in the fortress? He is extremly honorable, he'd want to be in the actual battle itself


1) You have a problem with taking things not literally. First off, you have no idea that the bitter refers to pian or grief (Which I believe makes sense... seriously, this great wraith lord gets stabbed by a hobbit, and doesn't feel any shame?), it does not say. You cannot assume the actual meaning.
2) And a spell can be overcome in almost any setting, with a greater amount of magic or a sword of power. You have not given me reason to dictate that Middle Earth is any different.

1) and you have a talent for making unbased interpretations. When your trying to twist words, look at its context. The blade, not the hobbit, the damn blade dealt a bitter wound. The most logical contest is painful, considering he cried out in pain and fell to the ground in pain. Don't twist things like this
2) A spell can be over come with an items that is against spells. Considering raw power has absolutely nothing to do with this shield, raw power makes no difference. You need to ether be able to over come spells in general, or has the specific requirements. Don't make unbacked absolute rules without a basis

No... Sauron has weather control, not WK. No weather control is mentioned, just the fact his power wanes in summer.

Sauron and the Wk have weather control. The Wk is limited to cold and ice, but Sauron wasn't in Angmar then, he was in Southern mirkwood. It was the WK acting independently, through his powers are limited to cold and frost


*sigh* First, the machine gun was new, therefore they were not expecting it. If they had, I'm sure they would not have been so moronic. Now we have on Soth's side the machine gun... several types of it (metaphorically, I don't mean machine guns, just unique soldiers).
That isn't why they were so devastating in WWI, they had the machine gun long before that. It was because nobody had ever fought another power that also had it. WWI was a war of utter stupidity, and nobody knew how to use them properly.


And could it be that you are just over classifying the sodiers? I seriously do not believe these guys were in the Morgul army. Also, should we even involve Angmar?

considering that these guys were in the army at Minas Tirith (not all of them were from morgul, but they all came together to fight gondor) or were under his command pior, yes

Why shouldn't we count agmar. Full power, we count all of the troops that he commanded while a Nazgul (just not troops sauron commanded, so Isegard, Mordor and the many other armies aren't being counted)


Ummm... Frieza is an alien in DBZ who destroys planets... and has no ice powers. Its really a naming theme for his family, like his brother Cooler, or his father king Cold. Just thought to point that out, because you have no apparent knowledge of DBZ.
Ignoring the fact that i don't care for DBZ, which has awful pacing, my point still stands


If that is a fancy way of saying he's ignoring me, then you are correct. If not...
He seems to be confusing what I am saying, and attempts to discredit my logic by twisting it to a meaning that isn't even similar to what I'm saying.

You haven't even responded to what he is saying except in defensive accusations, what are you talking about


Like your argument relies on favoritism?
Let me tell you something, go to Youtube and look up DBZ and educate yourself on its uberness, because you know nothing about it.
As for weakness. Again... DOOMSDAY. You really need to acknowledge that point, and I mean actually acknowledge, not pretending to and then putting it aside because it does not relate to the argument.

1) Favoritism? i rely on fairness. Why do you never make these accusations when i'm on your side i wonder?
2) If i wanted to waste my time, i'd play wow, not watch DBZ.
3) Um, you make this accusation when you don't even address what i say? poor show



The WK's shield isn't as dominant in other worlds, because the weapons there can be stronger than any in the WK's world of origin. Sooner or later, the WK is going to come across a sword which can bypass his shield that is not of anti-undead qualities.
But the Shield doesn't rely on power level. ignoring the fact that the power level of a sword is generally vauge and hard to determine, the shield's ability means that power level is usless. It is specific properties of the weapons that is important. now if you have a weapon that is specifically stated to be able to ignore any protection, or get rid of magic, or not apply to the rules, then your fine.


1) I never said the WK's shield failed to work. I just said that a weapon of enough power could penetrate it, without the anti-undead trait. You cannot grasp this, you deny this, and ultimately deny it, saying raw power isn't the issue. If I made a blatant claim that the shield would only work in ME, then I would be saying all weapons could harm him.
I "fail to grasp this" because brute force doesn't solve everything and your not showing a basic understanding of how the Wk's spell works. Raw magic power isn't what over comes it, other items of far more raw magic power were unable to hurt him. It isn't about power, it isn't about brute force, it is about actual abilities


2) I see your point, you constantly restate it a hundred times per post. I have to say, I disagree. It is logical to say that a shield can be overcome once enough force is applied. What you are saying is only holy weapons can affect this guy, and nothing else. You leave it at that.

Logically, how can you say it is logical when there is no basis to it. The WK's shield doesn't rely on magical powers. In vs. thread we assume powers work as normal unless there is a reason for it not to. Weapons with certain properties can hurt him (like the master sword, or Frostmourn)




from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Due to the first portion I am quoting, consider me not granting your request to catch up. I covered a great deal of what you just rambled on in considerable detail in a later post. The fact that you really have no long version of the argument is of no suprise to me. Your entire point is this: Brute force can overcome any defense. If I somehow am misunderstanding it, enlighten me. Now, given that I very clearly understand your point and have demonstrated such, repay me the courtesy and at least try to read what I wrote and stop with this pathetic attempt to say I am ignoring you or not paying attention. I have yet to see an answer to my real questions in my post beyond the one this is replying to. If you can say with 100% certainty that these things can bypass his shield, then at what point can it be bypassed? Pure and simple. If you know they can, then you know the limit and can somehow demonstrate that they are beyond it. How much power is enough? Don't lay on some crap about divine shields and uber pownage power. Give me a real answer. Wow, your maturity in this matter surprises me. I was expecting a denial of my request anyway, but this surprises me. Denying my request, however, just shows me what kind of guy you are. :smallannoyed:

No, I can offer you an extended version of that argument, but now it is late, and I'm not feeling like it. I could have posted an incredibly flaming post of how you accused me of championing without backing and blatant favoritism, and I restrained myself.

I'm not going to try and enlighten you, because I've been attempting that for the last few posts now. You reject almost everything I say as favoritism/championing/bs, similar to EE, while you fail to notice the flaws of your own argument. That said, I don't know what good it'll do to in another attempt

You claim to know well my statements. Yet, you exaggerate my points to degrees that rather make them absurd, and presume that I'm saying one thing when I'm clearly not. Example? I merely am stating that the whole "All blades" quote thing is not as absolute in other worlds because there could be stronger magic weapons in them that we have to consider (Not destroying the shield at all, just giving other options to bypassing it). Your translation? Frostmourne outside of WoW is merely a hunk of metal with no powers, because it was meant to battle guys in WoW. I may have trouble getting my points clear at times, but I think I'm being transparent when I say the translation holds little truth to the original. So when I say your missing the point, I mean it, because you don't tend to actually acknowledge what I'm giving as logic.

Pathetic attempt to say you are ignoring me and my points? What of your attempt to twist my words to a new meaning? What of your attempt to accuse me of fanboyism? You beard is as white as mine in this case at least. From my perspective, you are ignoring my points, but if you aren't ignoring my points, then you are simply denying them, simply because it does not agree with your logic. You haven't provided clear reason to say that the WK won't be instantly cremated with a swipe of Sargeras' sword, just that raw power isn't acceptable. Doomsday... that says a lot on the matter, as was stated by Bago.

As for your power level requirement... I honestly do not know, because I have an incomplete knowledge of all magic swords. But I can say that swords that are epic in high magic settings can do this very well. However, if your asking for a specific limit, face disappointment, since I can't offer an exact one. However, that wouldn't be the point anyway. It would make sense that Frostmourne can bypass the natural defenses of divine natured beings, and the more you come to realize it, the WK's protection seems natural and passive than a simple spell you cast on yourself, and he is a being of far less power than deities in WoW (and everywhere else).

PS: I don't have a beard :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, come on, you too EE? :smallsigh: Well, it was all my fault for requesting time anyway.

[Matar]

Um, the stream was only knee deep. Then suddenly a huge massive river appears out of no where. That is pretty much summoning a giant water (which apparently had Wrath according to the quote) using the magic of rivendale the enchanted valley. That is pretty much a direct magical attack.

How wide is the river? And long is the river? how fast does the river flow? Is the water foamy? If you take 100 feet of a knee deep river, that's like, 12 yards across or something. That's a -ton- of freaking water. If the shapeing of it adds alot of air bubbles to it it look even bigger.




They never say the word holy in the entire LOTRS series, i was paraphazing. It was a "good magic" attack if you will, Elrond/Rivendales magic, mixed in with the attacking power of Gandalf (white horses and what not)

And I need evidence that the water is holy, still. Because, by your argument, something holy should kill them. And it doesn't, it just destroys there body. All I see is a ton of crushing force, nothing more.


1) When the Nazgul were hit by the water, their bodies weren't destroyed, just crippled. So in a battle if that happen, in a one on one duel that would be true. However in a large battle, even if the Wk is crippled, he can still just hang around without doing anything and let his army go one

Same thing in a VS thread. If your unable to do anything, then you lose.



For example, Soth could bury him under a mountain in theory. the Wk can't do anything now, he's stuck, but the battle isn't over yet as he is not dead, his army can keep going. now normally he'd just leave his body and return to sauron your right, but as he is not allowed to do that in this situation, he could just hang tight.

However in a duel if the WK is traped and unable to do anything, then it counts as a lose. Add to it, if it's an Army VS Army, then the WK is traped and if his army loses, it's still a lose as no one can dig him out.





Wait, you confusing hte prophecy with the WK's actual powers. The shield spell is not the prophecy, that is the "no living man shall hinder me" thing. The spell is what protects him from being harmed. You hit his head, he could get knocked over (Aragorn drove him back without actually hitting him) and maybe you could keep him out of hte fight (through you'd lose your weapon) because the spell protects him for direct weapon harm (the exception being weapons that can destroy all magic or have anti undead good effects

now soth's firsts are able to hurt wraiths, so he could try to beat the WK to death. I don't know if he could pull it off because you know, the Wk has a mace and flaming sword against him, but he can hurt him

It was a typo. I meant prophcy -or- the sheild. My bad.

And that just proves my point. He's effected by force just like anyone else. Hit him hard enough and his body is crippled and useless. Will this -kill kill- him? No, but it's as good as a lose really.





Wait, your point? In LOTRS you can make enchantement upon blades. The Barrow blades are particularly good on their own, but they are able to hurt beings like wights and Wraiths so they were mass produced. I don't really see your point. Are you saying somebody who could make weapons like these could logically be able to case a spell to destory the Wk's shield? If so, it doesn't work entirely, because LOTRS magic doesn't work that way, if you can make enchanted weapons that doesn't mean you can cast uber spells, through some people could
from
EE

That's basically what I am saying. If these blades were capable of being mass-crafted before, then it should be possible to do so agine if someone is skilled enough.

[EvilElitest]

How wide is the river? And long is the river? how fast does the river flow? Is the water foamy? If you take 100 feet of a knee deep river, that's like, 12 yards across or something. That's a -ton- of freaking water. If the shapeing of it adds alot of air bubbles to it it look even bigger.



[QUOTE]

And I need evidence that the water is holy, still. Because, by your argument, something holy should kill them. And it doesn't, it just destroys there body. All I see is a ton of crushing force, nothing more.
Um,
1) The River (which has wrath apparently) is part of the holy vally of Imadus, or Riven dale, like the Golden wood, one of hte last good refuge of the elves
2) Elrond using the good holy styled magic magic
3) gandalf using the good holy styled magic
Its a spell basically


Same thing in a VS thread. If your unable to do anything, then you lose.
In a one on one, yes your right (soth vs. WK in a duel). But in a full scale army battle, then your army can keep going without you as long as you are alive (remember, his fear powers don't stop then)




However in a duel if the WK is traped and unable to do anything, then it counts as a lose. Add to it, if it's an Army VS Army, then the WK is traped and if his army loses, it's still a lose as no one can dig him out.
IN the duel yes, but his army can keep fighting without him. The niffty thing about vs. threads, unlike more realistic battles, is that the amount of causalities suffered doesn't actually matter s long as one team wins. In a realistic battle, losing 90% of your guys and having your leader buried under a hunk of rock is awful, as you lose you miltary power in the region, but in a vs. thread it doesn't matter as long as they win.


It was a typo. I meant prophcy -or- the sheild. My bad.

Fair enough


And that just proves my point. He's effected by force just like anyone else. Hit him hard enough and his body is crippled and useless. Will this -kill kill- him? No, but it's as good as a lose really.

he is effected by force in the being forced back sense, but not in actual damage to himself, because the spell protects him from that (IE if you hit him with a mace, the mace will break and his body won't be effected phyisically, but he will fall over. Soth could do this and then try to break his neck i suppose)


That's basically what I am saying. If these blades were capable of being mass-crafted before, then it should be possible to do so agine if someone is skilled enough.
Oh, yes. I don't really see how this helps your argument, but yes somebody who understood the making of Barrow blades (like the Dunidain) could make some new ones

Actually, there are barrow wights in the Wk's army who use these weapons. this allows them to hurt Soth's Banshees (only three it seems according to the wiki) but soth could take them
from
EE
Edit
Steven, you haven't even countered any of his points, or make the appearance of understanding them. Malar was able to, why not follow his logic
Also is Bajo your brother?

[Tyrant]

Wow, your maturity in this matter surprises me. I was expecting a denial of my request anyway, but this surprises me. Denying my request, however, just shows me what kind of guy you are. :smallannoyed:
I'm the kind of guy who is tired of dealing with someone who is oblivious to the obvious. If you are so damn sure this works, then why can't you provide anything resembling a coherent argument for it? You're entire argument is based on a faulty premise (power overcomes everything if you use enough). That applies in some settings, yes. It does not apply in all settings and does not apply in reality. Therefore, it is not all encompassing (what goes up must come down is all encompassing, and if you counter with something about flight or something about lack of gravity I am going to assume you have the IQ of a rock which may be doing a diservice to the rock as I think even one of those could get my point) as you seem to believe it is. You may as well say that since Krynn has 3 moons in Dragonlance all settings have 3 moons. They all have their rules. In some, power can overcome anything. In others, not so much (and it isn't for lack of power). This is something I really shouldn't have to explain.

For a moment, I will assume you are right and power overcomes everything. Here is the other problem with your argument. How much is enough? You don't know. I don't know. No one does. It's pointless to debate it as we will just go round and round. You're come back with the rock wall and using a nuke is a perfect example. If the wall is thick enough, that won't work. You have to use a bomb beyond any we have built. While possible, it isn't probable. At some point the power required isn't realistically available. You have no idea if that is the kind of power needed and I could always argue that it is. You would have no real counter argument beyond "Come on. Really?" And round and round we could go. We could debate until the end of time when fictional absolutes cease to be absolutes, or we can accept them on their face when they aren't readily disprovable.

Re:Doomsday, here it is in terms anyone should be able to understand: If Doomsday killed Superman through brute force, then Superman wasn't indestructible. Something that is indestructible can't be beaten to death. What here don't you get? This applies across the board. Things that are said to be indestructible and then get destroyed? Guess what, they weren't indestructible and the writer doesn't understand what the word means. It's not my fault that writers can't be bothered to look in a damn dictionary or decide to simply cast aside all reason in favor of rule of cool. I am also not at fault if the people reading my posts don't understand what the word means.

In the hypothetical I put forth, to better explain my point, you are required to ignore the history of Superman. I have explained this in detail at least once and shouldn't have had to. I will stop assuming I am speaking with people who have something resembling a vocabulary that includes the word hypothetical if you don't understand it this time and somehow demostrate so. So, to again recap, here is the conversation so far:

Me: What if the Sun were Blue?
Steven/Bago: The Sun is yellow
Me: I know that, but supposing it were blue, conditions xyz would apply.
S/B: But the Sun is yellow. So that disproves that it is blue. Stop ignoring me.
Me: I'm not. The Sun being yellow can't disprove a hypothetical. Do you know what hypothetical means?
S/B: The Sun is yellow. The Sun is yellow. The Sun is yellow. The Sun is yellow.etc.
See what I am saying? Doomsday has no bearing whatsoever on my points that involved Superman. He has no relevance to the discussion, save to illustrate he was in fact not indestructible. You have proven that point, which does nothing to help you prove that indestructible objects can be destroyed with enough brute force (which is just about as ridiculous a point as could be made).

You're other point is that different settings have different rules (yet you seem to ignore this when it suits you). You use this to justify Frostmourne being able to harm the WK. It already meets one requirement to do so, but you insist it can on brute force. I say, not by LotR rules. You say, Tolkein can stick it in his ear and his rules are superceeded because WoW is a more powerful setting and different so maybe it will work. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. And maybe if they are that different, it won't. Maybe Frostmourne's powers won't do anything to people from LotR. When you start throwing out things built on questionable logic, don't be suprised if it has undesirable consequences. You're position of, "well, maybe they won't work how they should" is basically pandora's box. It can be used to justify saying that anything won't work and you can't really counter that argument unless you are wanting to be a hypocrit. That is why I am asking about the power levels. You're argument revolves around this concept and yet you can't provide anything close to a clear answer on the subject. If you can't answer how powerful these things are, how are you so sure one is more powerful than the other? What is your basis for power level? Does power level suddenly convey attirbutes beyond those described? Why? Who gets to decide what it can and can't do once we start down the wonderful road of "what if?"? Can you really not see that this is what it comes to if you start down that road?

Re: Power swords and all things divine
I will live with your incomplete knowledge as I don't care about all magic swords. Only a handful concern this conversation. Tell me when Frostmourne has destroyed the magical shield of a foe. The power of the sword itself (obviously someone would be swinging it), not some spell or attack by the wielder using their own power.

As far as the divine defenses, I still see nothing to make me believe that it wasn't made to exploit some weakness they have. Nothing you have shown me about the sword says otherwise. I can even counter with an example of when arcane has overcome divine. Raistilin defeated Takhisis with magic. She was a god, argumably the most powerful of the evil gods. He exploited a weakness and defeated her. Then he killed the rest of the dragonlance pantheonand destroyed the universe. A lowly mortal spellcaster defeated an entire pantheon through magic. And these weren't crappy gods or ME type finite power gods. These are D&D gods. 21 of them. Divine does not always trump arcane.

My theory on Frostmourne's ability to hurt gods doesn't depend on who made it and it fits within what we know. It explains how magic could block it when a god would be hurt by it. As your retort to my comment of WoW gods illustrates, you believe that divine is divine no matter the source. Gods can have weaknesses. Again, Baldir (mistletoe was his weakness). Show me otherwise, and I will reconsider. Massively powerful characters can kill the WK. They just can't do it by swinging bits of sharp metal at him.

[Matar]

1) The River (which has wrath apparently) is part of the holy vally of Imadus, or Riven dale, like the Golden wood, one of hte last good refuge of the elves

If it says River Wrath it doesn't mean it has to actually -have- wrath. It's just a saying. I would need it in context though.

And again, I don't see it. If the entire vally is magical and holy then why even use all that magic might to kill them? Why not make a few traps with the holy trees in the vally?

From what I can tell it looks like this. The river isn't that deep, so they had to use alot of magic to animate the amount they needed in order to smush the dudes.


2) Elrond using the good holy styled magic magic
3) gandalf using the good holy styled magic
Its a spell basically

Just because your a good wizard doesn't mean all your magic is holy. If so, then why bother with the river and just cast some holy lightning on them? I don't really see that as plausible.


In a one on one, yes your right (soth vs. WK in a duel). But in a full scale army battle, then your army can keep going without you as long as you are alive (remember, his fear powers don't stop then)

Fair enough.


he is effected by force in the being forced back sense, but not in actual damage to himself, because the spell protects him from that (IE if you hit him with a mace, the mace will break and his body won't be effected phyisically, but he will fall over. Soth could do this and then try to break his neck i suppose)

And we are back to the point of the river. IF he is effected by force, and things that can kill a human can kill him (A sword, for example. Without his magic sheild and prophicy a normal sword and hurt him) then force should be able to kill him, with the right amount.

Wether or not Soth is strong enough to do this however is something else entirely. I doubt WK would become dazed from a blow to the the head. I doubt he feels pain. And though his body can br broken, using a blow with enough force to -break- it will leave yu right open for an attack (And WK wouldn't care if he died, if the enemie died to. Seeing as how he would just come back.)

Im not Soth expert, so I will leave that to someone else.


he is effected by force in the being forced back sense, but not in actual damage to himself, because the spell protects him from that (IE if you hit him with a mace, the mace will break and his body won't be effected phyisically, but he will fall over. Soth could do this and then try to break his neck i suppose)

Technically all the sheild says is blade, and a mace certainly isn't a blade. I'll take your word for the weapon breaking part, though I have yet to see any evidence that it would.

Here's the thing, however. To the best of my knowledge magic weapons can't be sundered. However, magic of a high enough level can rip out the enchantments. I don't think that the WK has that type of magic however. Gandalf, Sarumon, and Sauron sure. But not the WK.


Oh, yes. I don't really see how this helps your argument, but yes somebody who understood the making of Barrow blades (like the Dunidain) could make some new ones

I think there are several spells that let people find out this kind of thing. Scry, Speak with Dead, Greater Scying, Legend Lore, ect. Does Soth have access to this type of magic?


As far as the divine defenses, I still see nothing to make me believe that it wasn't made to exploit some weakness they have. Nothing you have shown me about the sword says otherwise. I can even counter with an example of when arcane has overcome divine. Raistilin defeated Takhisis with magic. She was a god, argumably the most powerful of the evil gods. He exploited a weakness and defeated her. Then he killed the rest of the dragonlance pantheonand destroyed the universe. A lowly mortal spellcaster defeated an entire pantheon through magic. And these weren't crappy gods or ME type finite power gods. These are D&D gods. 21 of them. Divine does not always trump arcane.

Well. The only being in the game that I recall with Divine Armor was abeing of such power and magical might that something that could only harm -pure- magic could kill him.

That being, wisp. I don't really see it as being hard to put these two things together. The big-bad was, in essance, magic. I would assume at least. Why else would something that only harms magic be the thing that dealt the only true death blow to him?

[EvilElitest]

If it says River Wrath it doesn't mean it has to actually -have- wrath. It's just a saying. I would need it in context though.

I showed it two pages ago with Walking target, but Elrond summoned the River's wraith or something to that effect


And again, I don't see it. If the entire vally is magical and holy then why even use all that magic might to kill them? Why not make a few traps with the holy trees in the vally?

Well the river is the border of the land, and the Nazgul were just about to get frodo, so if they hadn't used the river Frodo would be dead. I'm sure i a full scale invasion occured they gladly use more trap like methods


From what I can tell it looks like this. The river isn't that deep, so they had to use alot of magic to animate the amount they needed in order to smush the dudes.


They summoned the water, with magic water horses and riders to directly attack the Nazgul. That is Good elrond, River, and Gandalf magic combined (and Glorfindal)


Just because your a good wizard doesn't mean all your magic is holy. If so, then why bother with the river and just cast some holy lightning on them? I don't really see that as plausible.

Gandalf isn't a wizard in the D&D sense, he is a Mariar. IE, the power of "good" is used by him, the Flame of Arnor and what not. Gandalf uses good magic
Also he did fight the nazgul on weather top, he just failed to actually defeat them






And we are back to the point of the river. IF he is effected by force, and things that can kill a human can kill him (A sword, for example. Without his magic sheild and prophicy a normal sword and hurt him) then force should be able to kill him, with the right amount.
The river's force didn't defeat him, it was a direct magical attacK (and he didn't die ether, one nazgul escaped). If you talke his spel away and his prophecy, then you could kill him normally (IE, Soth could use his firsts


Wether or not Soth is strong enough to do this however is something else entirely. I doubt WK would become dazed from a blow to the the head. I doubt he feels pain. And though his body can br broken, using a blow with enough force to -break- it will leave yu right open for an attack (And WK wouldn't care if he died, if the enemie died to. Seeing as how he would just come back.)
fair enough. Through the Wk can inflict pain, soth would have to get up to him with his undead hurting fists




Technically all the sheild says is blade, and a mace certainly isn't a blade. I'll take your word for the weapon breaking part, though I have yet to see any evidence that it would.
Any weapon that touches hims burns up. But the spell protects him from weapon harm, a blade is just one type of weapon. A mace wil knock him over and maybe make him droop his weapon however



Here's the thing, however. To the best of my knowledge magic weapons can't be sundered. However, magic of a high enough level can rip out the enchantments. I don't think that the WK has that type of magic however. Gandalf, Sarumon, and Sauron sure. But not the WK.

The Wk can destory magic weapons with distance. Anyways, a normal weapon that just is powerful couldn't over come his enchantments. A weapon that has the power to normally over come enchantments, like LInk's master sword could do the job yes


I think there are several spells that let people find out this kind of thing. Scry, Speak with Dead, Greater Scying, Legend Lore, ect. Does Soth have access to this type of magic?
he might have speak with dead, but he wouldn't know how to make a barrow blade however....
I mean if this battle had neutral people he could torture somebody to make it i suppose
from
EE

[Matar]

I showed it two pages ago with Walking target, but Elrond summoned the River's wraith or something to that effect


"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"

That doesn't show that the river is sentient, or capable of wrath. All it is is being poetic.

It's the same as a DnD wizard going "If ye dare cross me I shall smite you with flames of rage!" And then crossing him. Then burning. From a Fireball.

While still alve.

...Burning...

Er, sorry. I'm rambling and it's eairly in the morning. Point is, that seems to be nothing more then a poetic use of words. Books do it all the time, and Gandalf seems the showy type.


Well the river is the border of the land, and the Nazgul were just about to get frodo, so if they hadn't used the river Frodo would be dead. I'm sure i a full scale invasion occured they gladly use more trap like methods

So, the River itself is the border to the land? Also, that just doesn't seem to work. The elves would have to get there arrows from the wood in the land. Those making all there arrows holy and magical. And there bows. And technically all they have.

Thus, every single elf would have holy/magic weapons. And although I can understand them each having magic stuff (there elves). All elves being capable of breaking the WK's sheild seems hard to believe.



They summoned the water, with magic water horses and riders to directly attack the Nazgul. That is Good elrond, River, and Gandalf magic combined (and Glorfindal)


All the wording suggests is that Eldrod commanded the water to smush them. And Gandalf shaped in the riders. I don't see it saying he made anything just shaped it.


The river's force didn't defeat him, it was a direct magical attacK (and he didn't die ether, one nazgul escaped). If you talke his spel away and his prophecy, then you could kill him normally (IE, Soth could use his firsts

I don't see anything suggesting it was not the river. And yeah, he didn't "die die" but was crippled. Same deal, really. In a VS thread, at least.


fair enough. Through the Wk can inflict pain, soth would have to get up to him with his undead hurting fists

A common misconception is that undead no longer feel anything in DnD. This is not true, there sences are "dulled" however. It's extremly blunt though, and very dulled. So bringing them pain is quite impossible. Incorpral undead don't have the feeling of touch, however.

FYI: From what I can tell, Undead are rather of a paradox in DnD. Alot about them just doesn't make sence. By rules they only see 60 feet in darkness. By fluff, there not hindered by it. And im not even going to get started on how sight and hearing work. Talk about a freaking headache.

And Lifesence. Blargh.


Any weapon that touches hims burns up. But the spell protects him from weapon harm, a blade is just one type of weapon. A mace wil knock him over and maybe make him droop his weapon however

Okay, -now- I need a quote or something. From what you'v been saying the sword shatters, but now they... burn up? What?

And yeah, that's my point exactly. A blade is -one- type of weapon. And the sheild specfically and literally protects him only from that type of weapon.

It's nearly word-for-word dude. "No blade would have dealt such a bitter wound". Or something like that.


The Wk can destory magic weapons with distance. Anyways, a normal weapon that just is powerful couldn't over come his enchantments. A weapon that has the power to normally over come enchantments, like LInk's master sword could do the job yes

I'v never heard that before, but alright. However if the WK does that to Sloths epic sword (Epics are artifacts, right? I would assume so) then the WK has a chance of becoming totally disconnected from magic. Which is -really- bad for him, I would assume.

There's no way to gain back this connection, ether.


he might have speak with dead, but he wouldn't know how to make a barrow blade however....
I mean if this battle had neutral people he could torture somebody to make it i suppose

I don't think Speak with Dead would work, now that I think about it. I think the body has to be fresh or something. Though a Legend Lore or something should do the trick. Or something close to it. I honestly have trouble keeping up with all the damn books and stuff.

But this is a moot point. Does Sloth even have access to these types of spells? Someone else will have to say something about that.

[WalkingTarget]

I showed it two pages ago with Walking target, but Elrond summoned the River's wraith or something to that effect

Well the river is the border of the land, and the Nazgul were just about to get frodo, so if they hadn't used the river Frodo would be dead. I'm sure i a full scale invasion occured they gladly use more trap like methods

They summoned the water, with magic water horses and riders to directly attack the Nazgul. That is Good elrond, River, and Gandalf magic combined (and Glorfindal)

Here's the quote that EE brought up earlier.

"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"

However, that's not the whole quote. Here's some more:

"and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."

Gandalf reiterates that they "let loose" the flood, not that they created it from nothing or whatever. The water came from the "snows of the Misty Mountains" and I don't think it's too hard to imagine that the water held back in some way and is simply released when defense is needed. There's nothing inherently "magic" or "holy" about Imladris. The reason it and Lothlorien seem that way is due to the use of the Rings in those areas.

However, an earlier quote (from the previous chapter) seems more applicable as evidence for EE's position regarding magic in the water.

"...there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes."

The "flames" that Frodo saw seem a better candidate to me for some sort of "good" mojo worked into the flood (and could easily be another of Gandalf's "touches" which he didn't feel the need to explain to a hobbit). Still not definitive because there's still no evidence stating it's anything but cosmetic, but having found that I'll agree that it's a possibility.

[EvilElitest]

That doesn't show that the river is sentient, or capable of wrath. All it is is being poetic.

It's the same as a DnD wizard going "If ye dare cross me I shall smite you with flames of rage!" And then crossing him. Then burning. From a Fireball.

While still alve.

...Burning...

Er, sorry. I'm rambling and it's eairly in the morning. Point is, that seems to be nothing more then a poetic use of words. Books do it all the time, and Gandalf seems the showy type.

1) A fire ball cast by a wizard is still a direct magical attack. A wizard shooting a ray spell onto a pot of boiling oil that causes the contents to fall on a dude is just using minor magic to cause a larger effect. A fireball, or a summoned river is a direct magic effect.
2) In response to WT, the water came from the misty mountains, but you can't just turn a small drained river into a massive flood without magic, or use the magical effects Gandalf mentioned (they didn't break a damn, they literally commanded the water


So, the River itself is the border to the land? Also, that just doesn't seem to work. The elves would have to get there arrows from the wood in the land. Those making all there arrows holy and magical. And there bows. And technically all they have.


Thus, every single elf would have holy/magic weapons. And although I can understand them each having magic stuff (there elves). All elves being capable of breaking the WK's sheild seems hard to believe.

1) The valley is enchanted, just not in that sense (the Golden wood is encanted like that.) The valley acts as a haven for good against the evil beings of sauron
2) Even if the elves bows are magical (i don't know, the ones in riven dale aren't mentioned but the elves of the Golden woods do use magical bows and arrows made from the trees. These can't hurt the WK, because they aren't anti wraith (see quote i provided on Nazgul vs. arrows)
On that note actually, that would indicate taht all nazgul have that sort of shield to protect them



All the wording suggests is that Eldrod commanded the water to smush them. And Gandalf shaped in the riders. I don't see it saying he made anything just shaped it.
Which is like summoning a fire ball and enhancing its size.



I don't see anything suggesting it was not the river. And yeah, he didn't "die die" but was crippled. Same deal, really. In a VS thread, at least.


The river is being magical

WK, they didn't break a damn, they summoned the water. That is magical. Valley in the hobbit is said to be enchanted i think, and the river does magical effects. If the Wk is cripplied in the one on one fight, he is screwed but he can keep going in the army fight

A common misconception is that undead no longer feel anything in DnD. This is not true, there sences are "dulled" however. It's extremly blunt though, and very dulled. So bringing them pain is quite impossible. Incorpral undead don't have the feeling of touch, however.
The Wk can feel pain however, and doesn't abide by D&D undead rules entirely (for example, if you can break his spell, you can hurt him normally)


FYI: From what I can tell, Undead are rather of a paradox in DnD. Alot about them just doesn't make sence. By rules they only see 60 feet in darkness. By fluff, there not hindered by it. And im not even going to get started on how sight and hearing work. Talk about a freaking headache.

And Lifesence. Blargh.
and don't even get started on the whole alignment soul thing



Okay, -now- I need a quote or something. From what you'v been saying the sword shatters, but now they... burn up? What?
your mixing two things
1) The Wk can shatter weapons using his magic, he broke Frodo's blade at the Ford
2) Now when you stab him with a weapon, the blade literally burns up and the guy who stabbed him will suffer from the black breath
In both cases it is magic weapons and non magic


And yeah, that's my point exactly. A blade is -one- type of weapon. And the sheild specfically and literally protects him only from that type of weapon.

It's nearly word-for-word dude. "No blade would have dealt such a bitter wound". Or something like that.
They never say it is blade only, only that blades (and arrows actually) have been used as an example. Considering that he is protected by some sort of spell, (remember, arrows don't work well ether) we don't have any reason to think it is blade only




I'v never heard that before, but alright. However if the WK does that to Sloths epic sword (Epics are artifacts, right? I would assume so) then the WK has a chance of becoming totally disconnected from magic. Which is -really- bad for him, I would assume.

1) soth only uses a normal weapon
2) Eh? How would destroying a magic weapon from a distance hurt him? Explain your self please





I don't think Speak with Dead would work, now that I think about it. I think the body has to be fresh or something. Though a Legend Lore or something should do the trick. Or something close to it. I honestly have trouble keeping up with all the damn books and stuff.

But this is a moot point. Does Sloth even have access to these types of spells? Someone else will have to say something about that.
1) In theory, yes, through you'd still have to get an enchanter. But yeah, in theory
2) however this is a close circuit, so there isn't anyone to question i think
3) I don't think Soth has that, unless somebody has a source i'm not aware of
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

1) A fire ball cast by a wizard is still a direct magical attack. A wizard shooting a ray spell onto a pot of boiling oil that causes the contents to fall on a dude is just using minor magic to cause a larger effect. A fireball, or a summoned river is a direct magic effect.
2) In response to WT, the water came from the misty mountains, but you can't just turn a small drained river into a massive flood without magic, or use the magical effects Gandalf mentioned (they didn't break a damn, they literally commanded the water

I don't know about anybody else, but to me Gandalf saying that at Elrond's command a "flood was released" sounds exactly like there is a dam or some magical equivalent involved. The water is physically present as it came from the snows of the mountains (maybe at his command the snows melt and crashes downstream or some such, but it's still just water). He can control the river (it is "under his power"), but that's a far cry from being able to create water out of nothing. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no magic involved here, just that creatio ex nihilo isn't available in ME to anybody but Eru Ilúvatar so the water had to already be in existence and since teleportation isn't an option either the water had to be in place upstream of the ford already. "Summoning" spells à la D&D don't exist in ME. That's where we don't agree with you, EE. We don't think that they water for the flood was summoned like a fireball, but more likely was released via a ray spell (not literally a ray spell, just using your examples from above).

A question as D&D really isn't my game of choice and I've never played a caster anyway: are conflagrations started by a fireball spell still "magical" in nature? That is, if you cast fireball inside a wooden building and it caught fire, could you put that fire out through some anti-magic effect? Saying that fireball is a "direct magical attack" seems to imply that it would. I always assumed that the fireball is brought into existence by magic but once it's there the fire is just fire and the target is damaged simply by being, you know, on fire. Think a magical implosion-style nuclear weapon. The only difference being that instead of HE lenses to compress the fissile material, you use magic to compact it into a critical mass. The trigger mechanism is magic, but the primary effect is no different from a "mundane" nuke. Is that a reasonable analogy?


2) Even if the elves bows are magical (i don't know, the ones in riven dale aren't mentioned but the elves of the Golden woods do use magical bows and arrows made from the trees. These can't hurt the WK, because they aren't anti wraith (see quote i provided on Nazgul vs. arrows)
On that note actually, that would indicate taht all nazgul have that sort of shield to protect them

Well, pretty much anything Elves make qualifies as "magic" (as much as things like lembas or the cloaks are at least). That basically means that their bows are exactly what a bow ought to be and any faults in operation as such are therefore user-error (to paraphrase Ghostbusters: they provide the tools but not necessarily the talent). Agreed that this doesn't mean that they'd do any more to a wraith than a particularly well-aimed shot from a mundane bow, although an Elvish arrow might pierce armor or tough hides better, but might just fly straighter in general.

[EvilElitest]

I don't know about anybody else, but to me Gandalf saying that at Elrond's command a "flood was released" sounds exactly like there is a dam or some magical equivalent involved. The water is physically present as it came from the snows of the mountains (maybe at his command the snows melt and crashes downstream or some such, but it's still just water). He can control the river (it is "under his power"), but that's a far cry from being able to create water out of nothing. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no magic involved here, just that creatio ex nihilo isn't available in ME to anybody but Eru Ilúvatar so the water had to already be in existence and since teleportation isn't an option either the water had to be in place upstream of the ford already. "Summoning" spells à la D&D don't exist in ME. That's where we don't agree with you, EE. We don't think that they water for the flood was summoned like a fireball, but more likely was released via a ray spell (not literally a ray spell, just using your examples from above).


He summoned the rivers rage. He didn't summon the water in a D&D monster style, however he did summon the water in the sense of water bending you might say. The water was there, he just drew it forth in great mass and fury, Remember the quote


"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"

1) It is under his power and will rise in great anger
2) If it was a damn, they would have no way of knowing its realize time. It started the moment hte Wk stood in the water. A damn would be more clumsy


A question as D&D really isn't my game of choice and I've never played a caster anyway: are conflagrations started by a fireball spell still "magical" in nature? That is, if you cast fireball inside a wooden building and it caught fire, could you put that fire out through some anti-magic effect? Saying that fireball is a "direct magical attack" seems to imply that it would. I always assumed that the fireball is brought into existence by magic but once it's there the fire is just fire and the target is damaged simply by being, you know, on fire. Think a magical implosion-style nuclear weapon. The only difference being that instead of HE lenses to compress the fissile material, you use magic to compact it into a critical mass. The trigger mechanism is magic, but the primary effect is no different from a "mundane" nuke. Is that a reasonable analogy?

Actually, a fire ball doesn't catch wood. Like, it shows up, it explodes, and then the fire is gone.........no i have no idea how that works out



Well, pretty much anything Elves make qualifies as "magic" (as much as things like lembas or the cloaks are at least). That basically means that their bows are exactly what a bow ought to be and any faults in operation as such are therefore user-error (to paraphrase Ghostbusters: they provide the tools but not necessarily the talent). Agreed that this doesn't mean that they'd do any more to a wraith than a particularly well-aimed shot from a mundane bow, although an Elvish arrow might pierce armor or tough hides better, but might just fly straighter in general.

remember the quote i provided on the last page
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

He summoned the rivers rage. He didn't summon the water in a D&D monster style, however he did summon the water in the sense of water bending you might say. The water was there, he just drew it forth in great mass and fury, Remember the quote

[snip as we've all ready it many times already, although I do applaud the increased usage of quotes]

1) It is under his power and will rise in great anger
2) If it was a damn, they would have no way of knowing its realize time. It started the moment hte Wk stood in the water. A damn would be more clumsy

I think it much more likely that Elrond has some means of keeping tabs on his borders granted to him by virtue of his Ring. Putting a "shutting spell" (which is something that we know exists in canon here, while "water bending" isn't) on some flood gates that he can turn off at will works just as well. Hell, there could even just be some sort of warding effect that triggers something similar when Evil crosses the border. They wouldn't be worried that the flood might wash away their friends if he could control it to the extent you seem to be claiming. If he can pull forth massive amounts of water from the surrounding area (and if it's not in some kind of reservoir then it's going to be spread over a very large area) in a short period of time to get it going, how could he worry about being able to control it down the line after it's all in one place? You'd think that would be easier.

I see we've gone from "it's holy water summoned with the holy magic of the enchanted valley" to "he pulls water from the surrounding area into the channel of the river." If it's a large collection of water held ready for this purpose, then you're agreeing with me. If it's diffuse, it's going to have to be pulled from a very large area to get that volume of water in such a short period of time (at which point it's not really "in" the river anyway). The only other option is summoning it from "elsewhere" which I addressed last time.

I still think that a river called Loudwater can be assumed to be furious enough on its own if it's in flood.


Actually, a fire ball doesn't catch wood. Like, it shows up, it explodes, and then the fire is gone.........no i have no idea how that works out

Dude, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm): "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." Wood is combustible the last time I checked.


remember the quote i provided on the last page

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you on that point, just making a clarification on what a "magic bow" might do. Kudos on that quote in general though. That's actually the best (not only, just best) reference I've seen to support an actual "shield" interpretation of the spell that the Barrow Blade subverts.

[Mr. Scaly]

1) What source?
2) But that wasn't just Dragonfear, that was also moral issues. With the WK, they literally couldn't move. At all, they couldn't bring themselves to attack the giant army that was coming for him
3) In D&D terms, it goes the same distance, and Legolas got one that was swooping down. I realize they are mortal, but with the fear/black break/black Shadow/despair/Nazgul shooting deathly arrows at them, it will be challenging. Also once a fell beast is downed, it can just be replaced
4) It is actually very good, a nine leveled fortress on a hill with a single bridge leading to it, with an actual keep in the middle. It is still small, but nasty
from
EE

1) The source is the rules insert at the back of Draconian Measures. It covers everything from recent history and character traits to hit dice and standard feats. But Tyrant is right. There's a couple times in Dragons of Autumn Twilight where spell resistance is mentioned. The fear aura would be bad though. I'm thinking the officers go Comissar on panicking soldiers.

2) That's the point though. The ones who were left had gone through schisms in the knighthood itself and the knowledge that all their comrades were slaughtered two days ago. They were truly dedicated to defending the tower.

3) I'm not so sure that they can be replaced...wouldn't the nazgul have to go all the way back to Mount Doom to get a replacement? And dragons, not to mention riders aren't dumb either. Taking out the enemy flying troops would leave them in control of the sky and practically free to rain havoc on the foot soldiers. There's multiple instances of dragons decimating ground troops that can't even fight back, though some hundreds of thousands would take a while...

4) Ooh! Cool! I wonder if it was that strong when he was alive or if it took centuries of undeath to make it so?


On a side note, I think we can all assume that Soth has a magic sword of some level. He's a death knight whose lived for some four centuries, and in all that time he has NEVER been beaten. And not because he just kills everyone, if they challenge him he will accept. For an example of this (and I know I keep pointing this out) he out duelled Tanis Halfelven who'd been enchanted to protect himself from Soth's magic and fear aura, and Tanis was a hell of a swordsman. Plus there's the fact that when powerful undead keep items for centuries they tend to become powerful just by association.

Say, does anyone else think WK's weapons are sunderable?

[EvilElitest]

I think it much more likely that Elrond has some means of keeping tabs on his borders granted to him by virtue of his Ring. Putting a "shutting spell" (which is something that we know exists in canon here, while "water bending" isn't) on some flood gates that he can turn off at will works just as well. Hell, there could even just be some sort of warding effect that triggers something similar when Evil crosses the border. They wouldn't be worried that the flood might wash away their friends if he could control it to the extent you seem to be claiming. If he can pull forth massive amounts of water from the surrounding area (and if it's not in some kind of reservoir then it's going to be spread over a very large area) in a short period of time to get it going, how could he worry about being able to control it down the line after it's all in one place? You'd think that would be easier.

1) There is no mention of a damn, and the context doesn't imply it. Elrond commanded it, that he is commanding the river
2) I mean summoning the water into one body then simply unleashing it, which is magical. The obvious indication is that he is simply calling forth the water, i mean you could presume it was a flood gate, but there isn't any backing to it




I see we've gone from "it's holy water summoned with the holy magic of the enchanted valley" to "he pulls water from the surrounding area into the channel of the river." If it's a large collection of water held ready for this purpose, then you're agreeing with me. If it's diffuse, it's going to have to be pulled from a very large area to get that volume of water in such a short period of time (at which point it's not really "in" the river anyway). The only other option is summoning it from "elsewhere" which I addressed last time.

Or possibly, magic that allows him to draw the water forth in great mass, maybe increase the spell of the water in other areas. Its magic that isn't explained, however we don't have an explanation for it that indicates a flood gate.


I still think that a river called Loudwater can be assumed to be furious enough on its own if it's in flood.


IN that time and place however, and so sudden?


Dude, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm): "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." Wood is combustible the last time I checked.

Sorry i was thinking of lighting bolt. However on the fire ball thing, if a fire ball is shot into an anti magic field, the fire will vanish. And if it is shot at a being that has DR against everything but magic, it will ignore the DR



Yeah, I'm agreeing with you on that point, just making a clarification on what a "magic bow" might do. Kudos on that quote in general though. That's actually the best (not only, just best) reference I've seen to support an actual "shield" interpretation of the spell that the Barrow Blade subverts.

Thank you, i remember it when people brought up hte nazgul. Even better than the normally quoted one through?


Mr. Scaly

1) Really? Any stats on Soth? Anyways, The Draconoics make up the smallest percent of the army (dragons aside) and as of such the chaos among the other troops will be crazy alone. Many of them will succumb to
2) But that wouldn't happen among the WK's forces, they might cower in fear, but the WK's fear is greater. There was already internal strife among the Knights, while the orcs know not to screw up the WK's plans
3) The Nazgul replaced their mounts before, they are most likely in Morgul Also the Dragons are going to lose guys getting these nine nazgul down. The nazgul can fly away from the battle draw the dragons towards the archers, or if they feel the need, just draw them off the battle completly. The fear, Despair, Black Shadow, Black Breath are all going to be effecting the dragons (and their riders even more so) no matter what the Fell beasts do, it will be a constant effect, never mind the black breath tainted arrows being shot at them, and the WK's magic
4) It was like that before he got it. It was burned up, but the walls still stand, just weakened and in some disrepair, but still effective.
5) Soth is said (I mentioned this eariler) to have normal sword
6) Hmmmm? Why would it matter
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

1) I wish...if there were there'd be less confusion. But draconians are much more numerous than you think. They were created to be the warrior race that Takhisis needed and would do the bulk of all the fighting.

2) So the orcs' reason for fighting is to not be killed by their leaders? So if massive winged monsters are bearing down on them they'll be terrified but won't run away. Works for me...terrified foes who stand in place make good targets.

3) Dragons aren't exactly slow either. One on one, I'm sure a dragon could kill a fell beast and they tend to travel in pairs for aerial combat. Dragons have great willpower and spell resistance (hence Raistlin's comments about them being powerful magic users themselves and how only powerful magic could hurt them) so they can resist fear. Breath weapons are very powerful, and plenty enough to unhorse the nazgul. Claws and teeth and tail and even wings are all deadly weapons. Heck, even the riders are an asset, another set of eyes or weapons. Besides all of which, dragons are experts at aerial combat. I doubt the nazgul have ever done it before. If the nazgul fly up to meet them they'll get knocked down again...and if they get new mounts it will happen again. I'm sure they're tough and all but there's only nine of them at any time and the dragons are freaking dragons.

4) I wonder how many men it can hold?

5) I remember you mentioning it but I'm not convinced...he has a greatsword, but we don't know if it's enchanted or not. Why wouldn't it be?

6) I'm just thinking that killing things is harder to do when your sword has been cleaved and your flail has been smoten.

[Tyrant]

Well. The only being in the game that I recall with Divine Armor was abeing of such power and magical might that something that could only harm -pure- magic could kill him.

That being, wisp. I don't really see it as being hard to put these two things together. The big-bad was, in essance, magic. I would assume at least. Why else would something that only harms magic be the thing that dealt the only true death blow to him?

What are you talking about? Can you elaborate?

Edit:
As a side question about the topic at hand, can the dragons direct their fear or is it all around them? It's been a little while since I read the War of the Lance so I don't recall.

[Mr. Scaly]

Edit:
As a side question about the topic at hand, can the dragons direct their fear or is it all around them? It's been a little while since I read the War of the Lance so I don't recall.

I seem to remember a dragon named Immolatus focussing his dragonfear on Kitiara once. It didn't work but she's a tough cookie.

[EvilElitest]

1) I wish...if there were there'd be less confusion. But draconians are much more numerous than you think. They were created to be the warrior race that Takhisis needed and would do the bulk of all the fighting.

2) So the orcs' reason for fighting is to not be killed by their leaders? So if massive winged monsters are bearing down on them they'll be terrified but won't run away. Works for me...terrified foes who stand in place make good targets.


4) I wonder how many men it can hold?

5) I remember you mentioning it but I'm not convinced...he has a greatsword, but we don't know if it's enchanted or not. Why wouldn't it be?

6) I'm just thinking that killing things is harder to do when your sword has been cleaved and your flail has been smoten.
1) Yeah. Aren't their five types through? Anyways, they will be effected and they aren't that many of them compared to the other forces
2) They are, as long as the WK is alive, deathly loyal. Even if you can break that with fear, they won't go against his order. They won't do as well however, so it isn't useless
3) Below
4) Its small, and somewhat falling apart, so i don't know. it can hold at least a thousand however, maybe more
5) But the book said it was normal. Could be masterword and well made, but not magical, other wise it could have hurt his ghost
6) But Soth can't use that magic however.....


3) Dragons aren't exactly slow either. One on one, I'm sure a dragon could kill a fell beast and they tend to travel in pairs for aerial combat. Dragons have great willpower and spell resistance (hence Raistlin's comments about them being powerful magic users themselves and how only powerful magic could hurt them) so they can resist fear. Breath weapons are very powerful, and plenty enough to unhorse the nazgul. Claws and teeth and tail and even wings are all deadly weapons. Heck, even the riders are an asset, another set of eyes or weapons. Besides all of which, dragons are experts at aerial combat. I doubt the nazgul have ever done it before. If the nazgul fly up to meet them they'll get knocked down again...and if they get new mounts it will happen again. I'm sure they're tough and all but there's only nine of them at any time and the dragons are freaking dragons.


1) Dragons actually have poor flight mavuvablity (how ever it is spelled)
2) These are in their youth and so their magic resistence isn't as powerful nor their will. The Nazgul's fear would be at its full strength (which is more than that used in the LOTRS books) and there nine of them, and don't forget despair, Black Shadow, and the Black breath, WK's magic and the Nazgul bows
3) The Riders will be a hinderence, because the dragons who can resist will have riders who won't be able too
4) The fell beasts wouldn't take them on directly, they don't even need to get in range. The dragons will have to come to them. I admit all of the nazgul will most likely be brought down multiple times, however if they can kill and hinder the dragons, it is well worth it. Even if the dragons recover after the nazguls fall, the time they took fighting the nazgul keep them from protecting their limited foot troops


The dragon fear is, at least according to the normal Dragon stats (maybe dragon lance are different) general
from
EE

[Matar]

What are you talking about? Can you elaborate?

Let me try to explain.

Archimonde is a demon. However, there not demons as you would think. They are a corrupted race. The Eredar. They were a race of beings with great magical power.

Sargeras made a pack with the leaders of the Eredar. Long story short, he offered power and they accepted. And there race was turned into extremly magical and powerful demons.

Skip ahead 25,000 years and we hit the the current time line. During the battle of the World Tree the demon Archimonde climbed Mount Hyjia in order to drain the World Tree of it's power, and become so strong that -nothing- would stand in his way.

Now, before I go on. I would like to explain two things. One: Archimonde can not be killed. Or, I should say, it is impossible for him to die by cannon. Nothing hurts him, magic not attacks. Your entire purpose is to just slow him down.

Now. Wisp's are beings that can only harm magic. Im not exactly too sure -how- they harm it. Disrupting, destroying, whatever. But that's what they do. They impact you, die, and magic is disrupted (Going with that, dun matter anyways.). When Archimonde reached the world tree Malfurion blew the Horn of Cenarius. This summoned a ton of Wisp's from the forests (Thousands) that all hit Archimonde and destroyed him.

Now, here's the thing. He had Divine Armor. No weapons could hurt him, at all. He also couldn't be effected by magic. And yet, The Wisps were able to destroy him even though they can only harm pure magic (They also damage summoned creatures, things of pure magic). The Frostmourn is also capable of damaging Archimonde just as well as a normal blade would harm a human.

WoW has changed alot of lore with Warcraft however. I mean, a **** ton. Not added to, just altered all together. So, I have no idea if this is still true in WoW. But this -is- how it was in War3.

[EvilElitest]

I think that is a matter of cannon and plot armor, not actual powers however, at least with WoW
from
EE

[Tyrant]

Let me try to explain.

Archimonde is a demon. However, there not demons as you would think. They are a corrupted race. The Eredar. They were a race of beings with great magical power.

Sargeras made a pack with the leaders of the Eredar. Long story short, he offered power and they accepted. And there race was turned into extremly magical and powerful demons.

Skip ahead 25,000 years and we hit the the current time line. During the battle of the World Tree the demon Archimonde climbed Mount Hyjia in order to drain the World Tree of it's power, and become so strong that -nothing- would stand in his way.

Now, before I go on. I would like to explain two things. One: Archimonde can not be killed. Or, I should say, it is impossible for him to die by cannon. Nothing hurts him, magic not attacks. Your entire purpose is to just slow him down.

Now. Wisp's are beings that can only harm magic. Im not exactly too sure -how- they harm it. Disrupting, destroying, whatever. But that's what they do. They impact you, die, and magic is disrupted (Going with that, dun matter anyways.). When Archimonde reached the world tree Malfurion blew the Horn of Cenarius. This summoned a ton of Wisp's from the forests (Thousands) that all hit Archimonde and destroyed him.

Now, here's the thing. He had Divine Armor. No weapons could hurt him, at all. He also couldn't be effected by magic. And yet, The Wisps were able to destroy him even though they can only harm pure magic (They also damage summoned creatures, things of pure magic). The Frostmourn is also capable of damaging Archimonde just as well as a normal blade would harm a human.

WoW has changed alot of lore with Warcraft however. I mean, a **** ton. Not added to, just altered all together. So, I have no idea if this is still true in WoW. But this -is- how it was in War3.

I see. Reading the WoWWiki, I see at least one thing that stands out about this so I have to ask (as I don't play WoW so maybe teh distinction is obvious to everyone but me). What exactly defines a summoned creature? It says that Archimonde had to be summoned to Azeroth is why I ask. Rituals and all is the way it makes it out. So, I ask because if he were summoned, it would stand to reason that something that can harm summoned creatures would harm him.

[EvilElitest]

Archimond was there in his true form, but it was a special occasion. that is why he was able to die however
from
EE

[Matar]

I would have sworn that Archimonde steped out of a portal in his full form. He wasn't summoned in the normal sence. But instead they created a portal for him to come through.

I -think-. Been awhiel sense I played.

[Tyrant]

I would have sworn that Archimonde steped out of a portal in his full form. He wasn't summoned in the normal sence. But instead they created a portal for him to come through.

I -think-. Been awhiel sense I played.

Like I said, I don't play the game so I was just curious. I was going off what they said and they didn't make any distinction. I assume that there is a difference, but I thought it best to ask instead of simply assuming.

[doliest]

Just wondering, are the witch-king's weapons unbreakable? Because if they aren't, then logically, Soths spell of fire, ice, & force would eventually destroy the weapons ending this fight in a draw.

[EvilElitest]

Just wondering, are the witch-king's weapons unbreakable? Because if they aren't, then logically, Soths spell of fire, ice, & force would eventually destroy the weapons ending this fight in a draw.

his flaming sword might be, but i don't know for sure. his weapons are surly of good quality, but i don't know if they are enchanted (it would make sense certainly, but i don't know).

however Soth's spells don't normally break weapons i think, through the ensuring fisticuff battle would be cool
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Thank you, i remember it when people brought up hte nazgul. Even better than the normally quoted one through?


Yeah. The "no other blade" quote says three things: the Barrow Blade is the best thing at causing painful wounds to the WK, that it is capable of cutting undead flesh, and that it broke a spell that "knit his unseen sinews to his will". None of that line says anything about other weapons being totally ineffective (it's a possible interpretation, but it's not absolute). If the spell had been "protected him from harm" or something it would be much clearer, but the line as it stands is wide open for interpretation.

Having Gandalf say that the Nine can't be killed by arrows is a much stronger statement.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah. The "no other blade" quote says three things: the Barrow Blade is the best thing at causing painful wounds to the WK, that it is capable of cutting undead flesh, and that it broke a spell that "knit his unseen sinews to his will". None of that line says anything about other weapons being totally ineffective (it's a possible interpretation, but it's not absolute). If the spell had been "protected him from harm" or something it would be much clearer, but the line as it stands is wide open for interpretation.

Having Gandalf say that the Nine can't be killed by arrows is a much stronger statement.

Alright, fair enough. So the shield spell thing is officially over, we can just stop going with that now
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

1) Yeah. Aren't their five types through? Anyways, they will be effected and they aren't that many of them compared to the other forces

Technically ten, but that's a long story and not really relevent. Soth is a much better strategist than I am but even I can see that a frontal assault wouldn't work. I'm sure there's other tactics he could use.


2) They are, as long as the WK is alive, deathly loyal. Even if you can break that with fear, they won't go against his order. They won't do as well however, so it isn't useless

Thank heaven for a sense of self preservation or there's be no stopping them at all. All the battles where they broke and ran, they'd stand and fight and the good guys would be overwhelmed.


4) Its small, and somewhat falling apart, so i don't know. it can hold at least a thousand however, maybe more

So it would hold out for a while at least, theoretically, if it came under siege.


5) But the book said it was normal. Could be masterword and well made, but not magical, other wise it could have hurt his ghost

The line was something like "Soth's mundane weapon could not pierce his body", right? Sounds like 'mundane' in this sense refers to the material nature of Soth's sword.


6) But Soth can't use that magic however.....

I meant through more mundane, physical means.


1) Dragons actually have poor flight mavuvablity (how ever it is spelled)
2) These are in their youth and so their magic resistence isn't as powerful nor their will. The Nazgul's fear would be at its full strength (which is more than that used in the LOTRS books) and there nine of them, and don't forget despair, Black Shadow, and the Black breath, WK's magic and the Nazgul bows

Well, even young dragons have a couple centuries of experience. Remember that line that Fireflash had to himself about how he was older than Flint (who was 150 years) but still young. That's a lot of time to practice their flying skills and combat. Plus in order to be large enough to carry a rider of human size SRD states that most dragons have to be at least juvenile in age. Most are older.


3) The Riders will be a hinderence, because the dragons who can resist will have riders who won't be able too

Not all riders will be so easily influenced, particularly if they've got a close connection with their dragon. To ride one well takes a lot of strength, particularly with evil dragons most of which would just as soon eat their rider. But really, a dragon could just ignore a panicking rider until he contains himself.


4) The fell beasts wouldn't take them on directly, they don't even need to get in range. The dragons will have to come to them. I admit all of the nazgul will most likely be brought down multiple times, however if they can kill and hinder the dragons, it is well worth it. Even if the dragons recover after the nazguls fall, the time they took fighting the nazgul keep them from protecting their limited foot troops

Why would dragons have to come to them? They could just fly around and nuke any ground troops that get near until the nazgul decide to investigate.


The dragon fear is, at least according to the normal Dragon stats (maybe dragon lance are different) general
from
EE

Who knows? I just remember a few specific exceptions, like the Immolatus incident. It's the rule though, that I know.

[EvilElitest]

Technically ten, but that's a long story and not really relevent. Soth is a much better strategist than I am but even I can see that a frontal assault wouldn't work. I'm sure there's other tactics he could use.

Defensive wouldn't work because the Wk can just breed more troops. Also, how many types does Soth have? Only Braks?



Thank heaven for a sense of self preservation or there's be no stopping them at all. All the battles where they broke and ran, they'd stand and fight and the good guys would be overwhelmed.
once the Wk dies they just have normal moral and then could break under pressure yes. But the didn't break until he died


So it would hold out for a while at least, theoretically, if it came under siege.

yeah, through the Wk could take it given time. But yeah, i could hold out against a normal force, it did for a few years when Soth was alive (true the walls are weaker now, but hey)


The line was something like "Soth's mundane weapon could not pierce his body", right? Sounds like 'mundane' in this sense refers to the material nature of Soth's sword.

No it was more like "mundane weapons were useless against an incorporeal beings, but Soth, a death knight, could harm him directly with his fists" or something like that



I meant through more mundane, physical means.

like what


Well, even young dragons have a couple centuries of experience. Remember that line that Fireflash had to himself about how he was older than Flint (who was 150 years) but still young. That's a lot of time to practice their flying skills and combat. Plus in order to be large enough to carry a rider of human size SRD states that most dragons have to be at least juvenile in age. Most are older.

1) They still have poor flying skill
2) They are all young from dragon age through, Kiteria's mount is pretty young himself and he is the oldest


Not all riders will be so easily influenced, particularly if they've got a close connection with their dragon. To ride one well takes a lot of strength, particularly with evil dragons most of which would just as soon eat their rider. But really, a dragon could just ignore a panicking rider until he contains himself.
Does matter through, the Wk's fear when he is at full power is absurd. Two examples of him in his weakened stat
1) The entire city of gondor couldn't fight back
2) Theodeon's horse went insane and through him off because the Wk was flying by



Why would dragons have to come to them? They could just fly around and nuke any ground troops that get near until the nazgul decide to investigate.
Well all of the nazgul's effects will still happen even through the dragons aren't chasing them. In fact it will make it easier for the Nazgul to shoot them

[QUOUTE]
Who knows? I just remember a few specific exceptions, like the Immolatus incident. It's the rule though, that I know.[/QUOTE]
I think the normal monsters just use general effects
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Defensive wouldn't work because the Wk can just breed more troops. Also, how many types does Soth have? Only Braks?

There were all five evil types in the dragonarmies...Auraks, Sivaks, Bozaks, Kapaks, and Baaz. Though that does beg the question, can WK even breed more troops? I'd think that it's something Sauron would reserve for his own use. He's a jealous creep after all...he wouldn't have tried to conquer the world if he wasn't.


once the Wk dies they just have normal moral and then could break under pressure yes. But the didn't break until he died

Fair enough. Though WK can't be everywhere at once, so I'd suggest that in smaller engagements where he's not orcs would break and run easier.


yeah, through the Wk could take it given time. But yeah, i could hold out against a normal force, it did for a few years when Soth was alive (true the walls are weaker now, but hey)

Oh right, I forgot about that...the knighthood actually lay siege to him. The weaker walls may be compensated for the aura of fear surrounding Soth.


No it was more like "mundane weapons were useless against an incorporeal beings, but Soth, a death knight, could harm him directly with his fists" or something like that

Yeah, that's what I mean. Soth is semi-incorporeal so he could harm Caradoc. His sword wasn't corporeal at all so it couldn't.


like what

Well, literature is full of instances where swords cleave other swords.


1) They still have poor flying skill
2) They are all young from dragon age through, Kiteria's mount is pretty young himself and he is the oldest

1) Hence why they tend to travel in pairs. Say a fell beast whirls around one attack, he flies right into another. And sometimes strength and size is better...hence why griffins don't beat dragons one on one.

2) Then again Kitiara's mount was some kind of uber dragon god thing, but that's beside the point. Takhisis woke her dragons up from the sleep centuries ago, so logically a good number of them must have been older and more powerful than ones born more recently.


Does matter through, the Wk's fear when he is at full power is absurd. Two examples of him in his weakened stat
1) The entire city of gondor couldn't fight back
2) Theodeon's horse went insane and through him off because the Wk was flying by

How do you know he was weakened there? Well either way, it couldn't have been that all encompassing, or the Rohirrim would have fallen off their horses mid charge. The horse makes sense though, evil things tend to freak them out.


Well all of the nazgul's effects will still happen even through the dragons aren't chasing them. In fact it will make it easier for the Nazgul to shoot them

I have never even heard of a Nazgul using a bow or ranged weapon...



I think the normal monsters just use general effects
from
EE

The dragons certainly would in a situation like this.

[Tyrant]

I asked about the dragonfear because if it just generally affects everything around, then the troops of the dragon army have overcome it. They aren't, to my knowledge, ever listed as somehow being immune. That means they have overcome at least one supernatural fear, so the case can be made that a number could overcome another supernatural fear.

[EvilElitest]

There were all five evil types in the dragonarmies...Auraks, Sivaks, Bozaks, Kapaks, and Baaz. Though that does beg the question, can WK even breed more troops? I'd think that it's something Sauron would reserve for his own use. He's a jealous creep after all...he wouldn't have tried to conquer the world if he wasn't.

Ok thanks
The Wk can breed his own troops, he did so in Angmar when Sauron was in Dol Guldor (actually Sauron came there later i think)



Fair enough. Though WK can't be everywhere at once, so I'd suggest that in smaller engagements where he's not orcs would break and run easier.

True but he was able to command the entire force at Gondor, so that is niffty. As long as his force stays unified he is good



Oh right, I forgot about that...the knighthood actually lay siege to him. The weaker walls may be compensated for the aura of fear surrounding Soth.

fair enough, but what about the catapults?


Yeah, that's what I mean. Soth is semi-incorporeal so he could harm Caradoc. His sword wasn't corporeal at all so it couldn't.

Dragonlance dude, magic swords can hurt ghosts no problem.


Well, literature is full of instances where swords cleave other swords.

Wouldn't the Wk just use his sword snap


1) Hence why they tend to travel in pairs. Say a fell beast whirls around one attack, he flies right into another. And sometimes strength and size is better...hence why griffins don't beat dragons one on one.

But the Fell beast is faster. It isn't going to attack, it just needs to let teh Nazgul do all the work with his passive ablity plus his bow


2) Then again Kitiara's mount was some kind of uber dragon god thing, but that's beside the point. Takhisis woke her dragons up from the sleep centuries ago, so logically a good number of them must have been older and more powerful than ones born more recently.

Except they weren't (also not her mount when she attack the free city, that guy was a young dragon) they were no ancient dragons there, they were all general size.



How do you know he was weakened there? Well either way, it couldn't have been that all encompassing, or the Rohirrim would have fallen off their horses mid charge. The horse makes sense though, evil things tend to freak them out.
the Wk was weakened throughout the entire third age because Sauron didn't have the ring. At full power his powers are even great and the elves fear him
The riders almost were destroyed, but he stopped to finish off the king when eh was migit shanked


I have never even heard of a Nazgul using a bow or ranged weapon...

They are mentioned to use arrows in Return of the king, the healers are thankful that he was not hit by a nazgul arrow, which indicates they do use them



The dragons certainly would in a situation like this.
Not quite sure how it would work

Tryant, Dragon fear does effect everybody, except for undead and teh Dragon folk who are in Soth's army. However the goblins and humans and orges will be effected
from
EE

[Tyrant]

Tryant, Dragon fear does effect everybody, except for undead and teh Dragon folk who are in Soth's army. However the goblins and humans and orges will be effected

That's what I thought. So that means they have overcome it somehow or another since they don't run in terror when their own heavy hitters show up. I suppose it would also mean that dragons are either used to or immune to that brand of supernatural fear as well since they usually travel in groups and aren't deathly afraid of one another.

[Matar]

Wait. Im confsued. Are you saying that an Aura of Fear effects allys that are not immune to it?

Im sorry, but that's just completly false. Fear Aura's and stuff only effect enemies units. I mean, why the blazes would you be afraid of your allys? It's not like it's a magical fear, it's just a good 'ol fashoned "HOLY ****ING **** THERE IS A DRAGON OH MY GOD" kind of fear.

Or am I just misunderstanding what your all saying?


Dragonlance dude, magic swords can hurt ghosts no problem.

In order to hit a DnD Ghost you need a Ghost Touch type weapon. Normal weapons don't do it.

Ether that, or you only have a 50% chance of effecting one with a magic sword. I forget.

[EvilElitest]

Wait. Im confsued. Are you saying that an Aura of Fear effects allys that are not immune to it?

Im sorry, but that's just completly false. Fear Aura's and stuff only effect enemies units. I mean, why the blazes would you be afraid of your allys? It's not like it's a magical fear, it's just a good 'ol fashoned "HOLY ****ING **** THERE IS A DRAGON OH MY GOD" kind of fear.

Check the 3.5 MM for me, i don't recall. I know it is an Aura, ut i don't know if it effects any non dragon, or just enemies. You could be afraid because you know, its a dragon. Check the books




In order to hit a DnD Ghost you need a Ghost Touch type weapon. Normal weapons don't do it.

Ether that, or you only have a 50% chance of effecting one with a magic sword. I forget.

second one, a ghost touch works as per a normal weapon. As Soth couldn't hurt him at all, no deal
from
EE

[Matar]

Check the 3.5 MM for me, i don't recall. I know it is an Aura, ut i don't know if it effects any non dragon, or just enemies. You could be afraid because you know, its a dragon. Check the books

Just did, and no, Fear Aura only effects opponents.

Scroll to Presence of Fear. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)


second one, a ghost touch works as per a normal weapon. As Soth couldn't hurt him at all, no deal

One: It would be Soth effected by the 50% thing anyways. From what I hear, he is incorpral. Witch Kings incorpal doesn't work like DnD's incorpral, as we have agreed on.

Two: We have agreed that he could not be cut (I still think that's wrong, but whatever). But from what I remember, we all agreed that force can hurt him just fine. And with enough force, cleave and cripple his body 'ala the waters.

Also, if we are taking the Sheild literally then Blunt weapons can hurt him just fine.

[Mr. Scaly]

Ok thanks
The Wk can breed his own troops, he did so in Angmar when Sauron was in Dol Guldor (actually Sauron came there later i think)

It occurs to me that I don't know that much about Angmar. I thought it was a city of men.


True but he was able to command the entire force at Gondor, so that is niffty. As long as his force stays unified he is good

Isn't it kind of dangerous to run an entire army personally without non-coms and sergeants to keep things under control?


fair enough, but what about the catapults?

Either they roll a critical failure and blow themselves up with their own flaming pitch (something I read in the ongoing games section :smallbiggrin: Those were the worst rolls I ever saw) or blown up from a distance by mages, dragons, or flaming arrows.



Dragonlance dude, magic swords can hurt ghosts no problem.

Dragonlance is a DnD setting, right? Swords need the ghost touch ability to hit them consistently, even magical.


Wouldn't the Wk just use his sword snap

Theoretically, but if he felt he had no need to fear it why would he? He didn't sword snap Eowyn's sword.



But the Fell beast is faster. It isn't going to attack, it just needs to let teh Nazgul do all the work with his passive ablity plus his bow

A bow isn't going to do a hell of a lot to a dragon, and when the Fell beast gets fried and the nazgul plummets the passive ability won't work so well. In Fellowship didn't that one's aura of fear fade after Legolas shot its mount?



Except they weren't (also not her mount when she attack the free city, that guy was a young dragon) they were no ancient dragons there, they were all general size.

Later in the series it was revealed that Sky is one of a bunch of monstrous dragons from some other world settling down on Ansalon. At full length he was 300 feet long, and not even one of the biggest. But setting that aside, there's a bunch of references in the various books to much older, stronger dragons being present. In 'Dalamar the Dark' one of the invading dragons was called 'the oldest and strongest in the army'. In 'Autumn Twilight' Flamestrike was so ancient she could barely see. A dragon called Borac in one of the short stories kicked ass among a bunch of younger silvers until an old wily one got him from behind. Immolatus fought during the first dragon war. Harkiel the Bender who helped create draconians was ancient. And heck, how could they have even breeded? After the first dragonwar was lost, they were all put into the Sleep. How could they mate to make younger dragons when they were all asleep?



the Wk was weakened throughout the entire third age because Sauron didn't have the ring. At full power his powers are even great and the elves fear him
The riders almost were destroyed, but he stopped to finish off the king when eh was migit shanked

The elves seem pretty terrified of him already, but okay. So it was his presence that sent the Rohirrim into a panic?


They are mentioned to use arrows in Return of the king, the healers are thankful that he was not hit by a nazgul arrow, which indicates they do use them

It could refer to arrows that have the same Black Breath type poison as the nazgul do.



Not quite sure how it would work

Tryant, Dragon fear does effect everybody, except for undead and teh Dragon folk who are in Soth's army. However the goblins and humans and orges will be effected
from
EE

I suspect that dragons can turn it on and off at will but that the humans, goblins etc are somewhat used to it, being around them all the time.

[doliest]

Continueing where my last post left off(because I'm not the foremost knower of...well Lord of the rings or even dragonlance) I'm thinking that once soth's sword snaps, he'd start using spells to try to disable(read:Destroy to the point where it literally breaks the law of conservation of mass) the Witch-king's weapons.


Of course I may only be coming to this conclusion based on how awesome the resulting fistfight would be.

[WalkingTarget]

Something that's been bugging me about some of the discussion here.

Where are people getting the idea that Nazgul are intangible (and therefore need a ghost-touch weapon or whatever to be harmed)?

Is it just because the word "wraith" is attached to them? That seems to be the primary argument. (edit - maybe the "give shape to their nothingness" line?)

All of the description I can remember just says that they are invisible, not ghostly (in fact a few lines make specific mention of them having bodies, "undead flesh" and "unseen sinews" for example). If anybody has a specific line to support the etherealness, I'd like to see it.

[EvilElitest]

Just did, and no, Fear Aura only effects opponents.

Scroll to Presence of Fear. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)


Fair enough



One: It would be Soth effected by the 50% thing anyways. From what I hear, he is incorpral. Witch Kings incorpal doesn't work like DnD's incorpral, as we have agreed on.

Two: We have agreed that he could not be cut (I still think that's wrong, but whatever). But from what I remember, we all agreed that force can hurt him just fine. And with enough force, cleave and cripple his body 'ala the waters.

Also, if we are taking the Sheild literally then Blunt weapons can hurt him just fine.
1) Soth isn't incorporeal, he can just overcome ghost powers
2) We didn't agree that, because the water has magical effects. We have no reason to believe taht his shield doesn't protect him from anything apart from certain magic.



It occurs to me that I don't know that much about Angmar. I thought it was a city of men.
It was a kingom. There were three races of men up there (the normal men of Angmar, the local hillmen who serve Sauron, and the corrupted men of Rhudar (two kinds, the northmen and the less but more powerful fallen Dunidain), along with many orcs/trolls/wolves/wargs (with a special breed of white evil wolf as well) and what not, along with evil spirits like Barrow wights
At its height it included all of Anor, but was destroyed



Isn't it kind of dangerous to run an entire army personally without non-coms and sergeants to keep things under control?

I'm talking about the moral thing, making sure his army stays under control. After the Wk died, the army was able to function under Gothmog, so it isn't the end of the world.


Either they roll a critical failure and blow themselves up with their own flaming pitch (something I read in the ongoing games section Those were the worst rolls I ever saw) or blown up from a distance by mages, dragons, or flaming arrows.
eh? Is this personal experience, i feel for you


Dragonlance is a DnD setting, right? Swords need the ghost touch ability to hit them consistently, even magical.
Yeah, but any magic could hurt him 50% of the time. Soth has a normal sword oddly enough



A bow isn't going to do a hell of a lot to a dragon, and when the Fell beast gets fried and the nazgul plummets the passive ability won't work so well. In Fellowship didn't that one's aura of fear fade after Legolas shot its mount?

1) A arrow won't, but the black breath upon will directly infect any dragon hit. Which is pretty much a one hit kill, the dragon might stay in the air for a while, but he'd quickly lose strength and die
2) The passive abilites work no matter what hte Fell beast is doing, so the Fell beasts just need to stay away from the dragons and let the nazgul do their work. Sure eventually all nine will be brought down, but teh dragon who does so will be wounded and quite possible morgul shanked
3) It didn't, the range just decreased because the nazgul was on the ground

Later in the series it was revealed that Sky is one of a bunch of monstrous dragons from some other world settling down on Ansalon. At full length he was 300 feet long, and not even one of the biggest. But setting that aside, there's a bunch of references in the various books to much older, stronger dragons being present. In 'Dalamar the Dark' one of the invading dragons was called 'the oldest and strongest in the army'. In 'Autumn Twilight' Flamestrike was so ancient she could barely see. A dragon called Borac in one of the short stories kicked ass among a bunch of younger silvers until an old wily one got him from behind. Immolatus fought during the first dragon war. Harkiel the Bender who helped create draconians was ancient. And heck, how could they have even breeded? After the first dragonwar was lost, they were all put into the Sleep. How could they mate to make younger dragons when they were all asleep?


1) really sky was one of those? Anyways, when he was under the command of the Blue dragon flight he was acting like a smaller one, so no worries there
2) Most of the dragons in the actual battle where the Blue Dragonflight worked with Soth were described as being the relativity small, like the size to carry a rider but huge. I don't think the really old dragons were at that battle actually


The elves seem pretty terrified of him already, but okay. So it was his presence that sent the Rohirrim into a panic?

Yeah, but when he was died, the Riders were able to re rally and charge the orcs directly.



It could refer to arrows that have the same Black Breath type poison as the nazgul do.
Black Breath isn't a poison, it is a magical effect thing. It effects stuff that is in direct contact with the Nazgul, but when Merry was effected, it can be used as a ranged attack. the Black Shadow is a crop duster effect


I suspect that dragons can turn it on and off at will but that the humans, goblins etc are somewhat used to it, being around them all the time.
fair enough


Wk, the ghost touch thing is more about seeing what can hurt him. Soth's sword isn't magic, otherwise it could hurt ghosts. His fists can hurt incorporal creatures, so logically it could hurt the Wk right?
from
EE

[Matar]

2) We didn't agree that, because the water has magical effects. We have no reason to believe taht his shield doesn't protect him from anything apart from certain magic.

And once more, you have no shown that the water is magical. The only magical thing about the while water thing was the fact that it was commanded from far away to crash on them.

From that quate earilier they called it from the Misty Moutains, right? It's more then obvious that that is where it came from. The only evidence really that it's magical is that it's shaped like the White Riders (Whoever they are) and that's not really evidence at all. Gandalf mentions it so offhandly that it seems to be nothing more then for show.

And why not just do it for show? He's god damn Gandalf, it's not like anyones going to complain.

Your going to have to prove it's magical beyond just going "A wizard made the water flow, so obviously he turned all the water into magical holy water to!". It just doesn't work =/.

[Mr. Scaly]

It was a kingom. There were three races of men up there (the normal men of Angmar, the local hillmen who serve Sauron, and the corrupted men of Rhudar (two kinds, the northmen and the less but more powerful fallen Dunidain), along with many orcs/trolls/wolves/wargs (with a special breed of white evil wolf as well) and what not, along with evil spirits like Barrow wights
At its height it included all of Anor, but was destroyed

It just occurred to me that at the time of Pelennor Fields Angmar was destroyed... Not to complicate everything again, but hows it possible for the two forces to fight on the same side? o_O



I'm talking about the moral thing, making sure his army stays under control. After the Wk died, the army was able to function under Gothmog, so it isn't the end of the world.

Ah, so they did have a chain of command.


eh? Is this personal experience, i feel for you

Just something I read in the ongoing games forum a while back. My worst experience was the party halfling (a Belkar rip off) openly contemplating shooting me in the back in the middle of a battle.



Yeah, but any magic could hurt him 50% of the time. Soth has a normal sword oddly enough

Unless he 'rolled' badly, but that's a point.


1) A arrow won't, but the black breath upon will directly infect any dragon hit. Which is pretty much a one hit kill, the dragon might stay in the air for a while, but he'd quickly lose strength and die
2) The passive abilites work no matter what hte Fell beast is doing, so the Fell beasts just need to stay away from the dragons and let the nazgul do their work. Sure eventually all nine will be brought down, but teh dragon who does so will be wounded and quite possible morgul shanked
3) It didn't, the range just decreased because the nazgul was on the ground

1) Unless spell resistance overcomes the effects of the curse.
2) Suppose the nazgul's body is destroyed in the fall? or incapacitated anyway.
3) It didn't approach them though. Maybe it was 'wounded' or hindered or something.


1) really sky was one of those? Anyways, when he was under the command of the Blue dragon flight he was acting like a smaller one, so no worries there
2) Most of the dragons in the actual battle where the Blue Dragonflight worked with Soth were described as being the relativity small, like the size to carry a rider but huge. I don't think the really old dragons were at that battle actually

1) He really was. He was featured in a couple trilogies, including the War of Souls one. But you're right, he never assumed that size in the Blue Wing. I was just commenting on dragon sizes.
2) Which battle do you mean? And where's it say that?


Yeah, but when he was died, the Riders were able to re rally and charge the orcs directly.

Hmm...would you say his aura is stronger in his presence?


Black Breath isn't a poison, it is a magical effect thing. It effects stuff that is in direct contact with the Nazgul, but when Merry was effected, it can be used as a ranged attack. the Black Shadow is a crop duster effect

I mispoke when I said 'poison'. But since the curse can be carried on arrows like a poison, it's conceivable that non-nazgul would fire them from bows instead of nazgul themselves?

[EvilElitest]

And once more, you have no shown that the water is magical. The only magical thing about the while water thing was the fact that it was commanded from far away to crash on them.

From that quate earilier they called it from the Misty Moutains, right? It's more then obvious that that is where it came from. The only evidence really that it's magical is that it's shaped like the White Riders (Whoever they are) and that's not really evidence at all. Gandalf mentions it so offhandly that it seems to be nothing more then for show.

And why not just do it for show? He's god damn Gandalf, it's not like anyones going to complain.

Your going to have to prove it's magical beyond just going "A wizard made the water flow, so obviously he turned all the water into magical holy water to!". It just doesn't work =/.
1) see WT's quote
2) See other quote (normal water does not have flaming white horses and riders attack you, that is magic. Its a magical attack. The idea that Gandalf would only add them for show is absurd, its totally out of character and it doesn't accomplish anything. he said he added a touch of his own, and i imagine he would have a good reason. I mean, he is just being a bastard if he is going "oh hang on, i need to make this flashy"
considering hte riders attacked the nazgul (along with Strider and Glorfindal) it is kinda clear that they had a point, thus magical attack. If sheer force hurt them, then the nazgul who fell out of the sky would have been injured (he wasn't)
3) See my response to Elrond, summoned watter



It just occurred to me that at the time of Pelennor Fields Angmar was destroyed... Not to complicate everything again, but hows it possible for the two forces to fight on the same side? o_O

This isn't Pelennor Fields, this is just teh WK and all of his forces, so he gets all the forces we know he commands on his own (IE, not Sauron's troops that he just was with, actually commands) That is morgul and Angmar


Ah, so they did have a chain of command.
Yeah, after the nine are destroyed, you have the commander Gothmog, then the indivisual generals (Easterling chief, Haradrim King ect)



Just something I read in the ongoing games forum a while back. My worst experience was the party halfling (a Belkar rip off) openly contemplating shooting me in the back in the middle of a battle.

wow, that is painful



Unless he 'rolled' badly, but that's a point.
Actually he never used it, they just mentioned it was mundane to explain why he didn't



1) Unless spell resistance overcomes the effects of the curse.
2) Suppose the nazgul's body is destroyed in the fall? or incapacitated anyway.
3) It didn't approach them though. Maybe it was 'wounded' or hindered or something.
1) It is at full power when in direct contact, and i mean the full power of mordor's power. So while some dragons could resist its lesser effects, direct contact is like an absolute (they might last longer, but they are still screwed)
2) It was said to have been unharme
3) He fell on the wrong side of the river i think, i mean when it was shot it flew then fell i imagine, it is like shooting down a plane


1) He really was. He was featured in a couple trilogies, including the War of Souls one. But you're right, he never assumed that size in the Blue Wing. I was just commenting on dragon sizes.
2) Which battle do you mean? And where's it say that?

1)Alright, i never knew that, fun fact
2) When they destroyed the free city and Kiterina died. Or in the battle where Flint got to fly. One or the other



Hmm...would you say his aura is stronger in his presence?

His fear? yes, through when he is flying it is vastly increased, on foot it is only the general area



I mispoke when I said 'poison'. But since the curse can be carried on arrows like a poison, it's conceivable that non-nazgul would fire them from bows instead of nazgul themselves?
Yes, i think that happened in the books actually (the nazgul breathed on a haradrim arrow, but didn't use their own on Faramir.) I think that is what happened. But yeah
from
EE

[Matar]

1) see WT's quote

You mean this one?


"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"

"and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."



Nothing about that suggests that the water was summoned. Infact, it does the exact opiset. It suggests that the water was called from up stream from the Misty Moutain. While letting loose the water many rolling and grinding boulders came free. Key words "Let loose too fierce a wrath". Hell. Gadalf himself says exactly where they come from. "There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."

Keep debating the magic point and holy point if you want. But stop claiming that they summoned the water. It's directly stated where it comes from.

Even better, seeing as how it stated to be coming from the Misty Moutains you can't use the "The water is naturally magical". Becuase the water isn't even from there anymore.


2) See other quote (normal water does not have flaming white horses and riders attack you, that is magic. Its a magical attack. The idea that Gandalf would only add them for show is absurd, its totally out of character and it doesn't accomplish anything. he said he added a touch of his own, and i imagine he would have a good reason. I mean, he is just being a bastard if he is going "oh hang on, i need to make this flashy"
considering hte riders attacked the nazgul (along with Strider and Glorfindal) it is kinda clear that they had a point, thus magical attack. If sheer force hurt them, then the nazgul who fell out of the sky would have been injured (he wasn't)

Not sure how to adress this. With the way your worded it, doing it point by point will be a touch hard. I'll try though.

1: Out of Character? The same Gandalf who rides around on a white worse? The same one who had a **** ton of extremly awsome fireworks? From what I can tell there is absolutly nothing out of character with it.

2: Your twisting what it says. Here's the quote.


"...there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes."


Frodo, who was dillusional at the time? Who was poisoned at the time? Sick? And not in the best state of mind? And note how it says it seemed and how he half-fancied what he saw.


3) See my response to Elrond, summoned watter

Can't find it, and there is absolutly nothing suggesting that.

[EvilElitest]

You mean this one?




Nothing about that suggests that the water was summoned. Infact, it does the exact opiset. It suggests that the water was called from up stream from the Misty Moutain. While letting loose the water many rolling and grinding boulders came free. Key words "Let loose too fierce a wrath". Hell. Gadalf himself says exactly where they come from. "There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."

Keep debating the magic point and holy point if you want. But stop claiming that they summoned the water. It's directly stated where it comes from.

The water wasn't summoned like a fire ball, but it is still brought forth by Elrond, and we have no indication of a Dam. Water that is brought forth to attack the Nazgul is still water brought about through will or the ring


Even better, seeing as how it stated to be coming from the Misty Moutains you can't use the "The water is naturally magical". Becuase the water isn't even from there anymore.

However if used magically, it is still effective as such. Fire benders use any fire, but when they use it is magical




1: Out of Character? The same Gandalf who rides around on a white worse? The same one who had a **** ton of extremly awsome fireworks? From what I can tell there is absolutly nothing out of character with it.

2: Your twisting what it says. Here's the quote.
1) Yeah, he rode a white horse because it was the best horse in the world, and he shot the fireworks at a party. When the one ring is being threatened
by Sauron's most powerful servants. I mean, it is totally out of character for him to go "Dude, wait a second, before you go it, let me try something. Lets make white riders, it would look so cool
Elrond- "oh man dude, that would be freaking sweet, lets go for it dude"
2) and gandalf confirms what he saw, IE there were white riders attacking the nazgul



Can't find it, and there is absolutly nothing suggesting that.
We have no mention of a damn, and i remind you that it is impossible for water to be summoned forth from in huge numbers like that
from
EE

[hamishspence]

"the river will rise in anger" and "the flood was released" suggests SOMETHING was done to get the water there. However the reference to the water having "great vigour" suggests it was summoned from somewhere.

Maybe, (sorry about the catgirl killing :smallbiggrin:) Elrond moved the water from upriver downwards, very suddenly, very fast. Result. Water rises up in height. (and for a while afterwards, the river upstream will be nearly dry)

Gandalfs "touch" might make the water more intimidating, maybe more dangerous, to the Nazgul

Unfinished Tales suggests they are already wary of the "elfish" waters of the river.

[Matar]

The water wasn't summoned like a fire ball, but it is still brought forth by Elrond, and we have no indication of a Dam. Water that is brought forth to attack the Nazgul is still water brought about through will or the ring

This has reached the point of sheer denial now.Thw water was neither summoned nor called for. In fact, I don't think LoTR magic even WORKS like that.

Elrond command the water up stream, in the Misty Moutains, to come down harder and faster. In the context of the book it says he unleashed it. That could mean that there is ether a dam, or natural boudlers and stuff limiting the amount of water that flows.


"elrond commanded it.' answered Gandalf. 'The River of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the waters the flood was released. If I may say so, i added a few touches of my own.: you may not have noticed but but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders"

"and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."

There. Stating exactly where it came from and everything. You can keep claiming it's magic water if you want, whatever. But to deny that the water came from Misty Moutains, or to deny that the Misty Moutains is where they unleashed it from is nothing more the sheer ignorance and ignore the truth. Like, seriously. What your doing is in extremly poor taste and has no place in a debate.


However if used magically, it is still effective as such. Fire benders use any fire, but when they use it is magical

From Avatar? No, it's normal fire. Same with all the stuff they use. It's even in the name itself. Fire *Bending* dude.

Hell-Fire from DnD is magical. Not Fire Bending.


1) Yeah, he rode a white horse because it was the best horse in the world, and he shot the fireworks at a party. When the one ring is being threatened by Sauron's most powerful servants. I mean, it is totally out of character for him to go "Dude, wait a second, before you go it, let me try something. Lets make white riders, it would look so cool

It seems perfectly in character to me. It just screams Gandalf. It's telling the Nazguls not to **** with us. I can also assume that the White Riders has some really deep meaning as well. And it's not too hard to belive that making it look like the White Riders would add some more force behind the impact.


2) and gandalf confirms what he saw, IE there were white riders attacking the nazgul

I know there were. I saw talking about the "flames" Fordo imagined he saw, which could be anything. Personally, I imagine as being the water splashing and forthing from being shaped the way it was.


We have no mention of a damn, and i remind you that it is impossible for water to be summoned forth from in huge numbers like that

No mention of dam directly. But it is stated that the water is being held back by something. There is no saying "No evidence" because we have a friggen quote on that. Wether or not it's just a natural formation or an elvin dam or something we can't be sure of. But we know for a fact that the water is being held back.

And... what? I'm too sure I understand that last part, but are you saying that it's impossible for them to make such a large mass of water move?

...What? After claiming that they *summoned* the water out of no-where. After claiming that Gandalf shaped all the water in the way he did (And he did)? After claiming that they made -all that water- magical *and* holy?

Make up your mind about there limits, because so far your making them whatever you want them to be at the time.

[Devon]

I have a question i don't think anyone has asked (i scanned the other posts and didn't see anything about it). Is there a system we are using to decide the figh - or are we talking "real life"?

also - for the person who hadn't heard of Nazgul using ranged weapons, look up Uvatha the Horseman in the MERP rules - he uses throwing kynacs (first time we ever met a Nazgul in game, guess wht got me:))

Also, where would the "campaign" between the two take place? locations would make a lot of difference.

Lord Soth is listed in the Dragonlance rulebook as using a 2h sword +3, so he does have a magic weapon.

Devon

[EvilElitest]

This has reached the point of sheer denial now.Thw water was neither summoned nor called for. In fact, I don't think LoTR magic even WORKS like that.


See Hamispace


Elrond command the water up stream, in the Misty Moutains, to come down harder and faster. In the context of the book it says he unleashed it. That could mean that there is ether a dam, or natural boudlers and stuff limiting the amount of water that flows.


Or he could have used his ring to summon the water down in a massive burst.



There. Stating exactly where it came from and everything. You can keep claiming it's magic water if you want, whatever. But to deny that the water came from Misty Moutains, or to deny that the Misty Moutains is where they unleashed it from is nothing more the sheer ignorance and ignore the truth. Like, seriously. What your doing is in extremly poor taste and has no place in a debate.
i didn't deny it came from the misty mountains, don't put words in my mouth. however Elrond could have brought it forth with magic






It seems perfectly in character to me. It just screams Gandalf. It's telling the Nazguls not to **** with us. I can also assume that the White Riders has some really deep meaning as well. And it's not too hard to belive that making it look like the White Riders would add some more force behind the impact.
1) Gandalf is simply being retarded? I'm sorry, but considering the threat, i don't think he would waste time and power simply to make it look cool. If he added the white fire and white horses/riders, i imagine he had good reason, they did attack the Nazgul
2) Riders in the water wouldn't have an effect on impact, it wouldn't make sense. that effectively makes the water magical, because normal water doesn't work that way



I know there were. I saw talking about the "flames" Fordo imagined he saw, which could be anything. Personally, I imagine as being the water splashing and forthing from being shaped the way it was.
Considering that Gandalf said he added his own touches, we have no reason to believe that Frodo saw wrong, considering Gandalf's statements


No mention of dam directly. But it is stated that the water is being held back by something. There is no saying "No evidence" because we have a friggen quote on that. Wether or not it's just a natural formation or an elvin dam or something we can't be sure of. But we know for a fact that the water is being held back.


And... what? I'm too sure I understand that last part, but are you saying that it's impossible for them to make such a large mass of water move?


If you don't have a dam, you can't pull forth a mass of water no make the water "rise in anger" like that, it isn't possible.





...What? After claiming that they *summoned* the water out of no-where. After claiming that Gandalf shaped all the water in the way he did (And he did)? After claiming that they made -all that water- magical *and* holy?
please don't make claims that aren't true, i never said they summoned it out of nowhere. They did call the water forth from the Mountains, somehow with special awesome timing.



Make up your mind about there limits, because so far your making them whatever you want them to be at the time.
The point remains, weather through Elronds, his ring, the elfish water, or Gandalf, teh water is magical. It can directly hurt the nazgul. If force hurt them, the one who fell off his fell beast would have died rather than just lose his mount
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

This isn't Pelennor Fields, this is just teh WK and all of his forces, so he gets all the forces we know he commands on his own (IE, not Sauron's troops that he just was with, actually commands) That is morgul and Angmar

I'm just saying that it's confusing to have all the men/orcs that WK ever commanded in history to be in one army no matter they're current state of decay. If you extend the comparison enough one could argue that most of the knights and footmen in the Solamnic order at the time of Soth's life should be included in his army because he outranked and commanded them.


Yeah, after the nine are destroyed, you have the commander Gothmog, then the indivisual generals (Easterling chief, Haradrim King ect)

Question, for all actually. Should Kitiara be included in this? The Blue Wing has its own subcommanders and whatnot, but she's technically a part of it. Before dying anyway.


wow, that is painful

He was rolling dice to see who he'd attack. Hehe...he seriously considered the party wizard's familiar, who was at -3 hitpoints. Finally he attacked an enemy when the other wizard threatened him.


Actually he never used it, they just mentioned it was mundane to explain why he didn't

Well that's annoying, though one undead strangling another is a wonderful sight.


1) It is at full power when in direct contact, and i mean the full power of mordor's power. So while some dragons could resist its lesser effects, direct contact is like an absolute (they might last longer, but they are still screwed)
2) It was said to have been unharme
3) He fell on the wrong side of the river i think, i mean when it was shot it flew then fell i imagine, it is like shooting down a plane

1) Since WK hasn't even fought with dragons from his own universe one can't say for sure that they'd be screwed, though it's certainly a threat.
2) Unharmed as in 'took no damage at all' or as in 'was somewhat inconvenienced and had to withdraw for a while?'
3) That sounds so mundane though...


1)Alright, i never knew that, fun fact
2) When they destroyed the free city and Kiterina died. Or in the battle where Flint got to fly. One or the other

2) Huh...I don't remember any references to the exact age of dragons beyond Fireflash.


His fear? yes, through when he is flying it is vastly increased, on foot it is only the general area

Logically then shooting down his fell beast would help...taking into account the issues involved in that.



Yes, i think that happened in the books actually (the nazgul breathed on a haradrim arrow, but didn't use their own on Faramir.) I think that is what happened. But yeah
from
EE

I wonder how much of the book it would have saved if a nazgul had just shot Aragorn or Frodo from a distance?

[EvilElitest]

I'm just saying that it's confusing to have all the men/orcs that WK ever commanded in history to be in one army no matter they're current state of decay. If you extend the comparison enough one could argue that most of the knights and footmen in the Solamnic order at the time of Soth's life should be included in his army because he outranked and commanded them.

We normally do that in vs. threads. Any forces who they have personally commanded in their current form
The WK does not get his forces from when he was alive, nor does soth get the forces from when he was evil.


Question, for all actually. Should Kitiara be included in this? The Blue Wing has its own subcommanders and whatnot, but she's technically a part of it. Before dying anyway.

I thought se was?


He was rolling dice to see who he'd attack. Hehe...he seriously considered the party wizard's familiar, who was at -3 hitpoints. Finally he attacked an enemy when the other wizard threatened him.


........


Well that's annoying, though one undead strangling another is a wonderful sight.

i can imagine. I'm think Soth is a better fighter, but unarmed (after his sword is destroyed of course) can he take on a dude using a giant mace and a flaming sword? Maybe with magic


1) Since WK hasn't even fought with dragons from his own universe one can't say for sure that they'd be screwed, though it's certainly a threat.
2) Unharmed as in 'took no damage at all' or as in 'was somewhat inconvenienced and had to withdraw for a while?'
3) That sounds so mundane though...
1) don't do that. They are living creatures, no reason why they wouldn't be effected. they will certainly do better than most, but they aren't immune (through soth is)
2) He fell off and didn't die, but wasn't near enough to hte battle to do anything
3) Yeah well......



2) Huh...I don't remember any references to the exact age of dragons beyond Fireflash.

they mention size through


Logically then shooting down his fell beast would help...taking into account the issues involved in that.
Taking that into account, yes you are totally right. It would hinder them, and limit their fear effect, but not end it. They can remount new fell beasts, and when they run out of those, they can use the mordor horses to keep their men under control, weaken their foes and particularly the dragons



I wonder how much of the book it would have saved if a nazgul had just shot Aragorn or Frodo from a distance?
Well when they were on a moving river, i don't think it was a good situation. But it went down before it could make a difference

[Mr. Scaly]

We normally do that in vs. threads. Any forces who they have personally commanded in their current form
The WK does not get his forces from when he was alive, nor does soth get the forces from when he was evil.

That makes sense. So WK didn't rule Angmar when he was alive, or he did and just continued his rule after death?


I thought se was?

I didn't know if she was included or not.


........

Heh. I did say he was a Belkar Bitterleaf rip off.


i can imagine. I'm think Soth is a better fighter, but unarmed (after his sword is destroyed of course) can he take on a dude using a giant mace and a flaming sword? Maybe with magic

I guess he'd try and smash them with his sword before it breaks. WK tends to wait until it's dramatic rather than practical to pull that trick. I.E. Frodo at the ford but not Eowyn at Pelennor Field. But I guess he could fireball WK's weapons or something.


1) don't do that. They are living creatures, no reason why they wouldn't be effected. they will certainly do better than most, but they aren't immune (through soth is)
2) He fell off and didn't die, but wasn't near enough to hte battle to do anything
3) Yeah well......

1) Do what? I'm sure they'd be affected, but saying that they'd be 'screwed' implies no chance whatsoever especially for something like a dragon.
2) Couldn't he have pursued or something?
3) Common sense just isn't fantastic enough. Heh.



they mention size through

Yeah. They were at least large enough to carry a rider. Fireflash was big enough to carry two at least. Isn't there some chart that says how big something has to be to carry a human sized rider? (Or two dwarf and kender sized riders.)


Taking that into account, yes you are totally right. It would hinder them, and limit their fear effect, but not end it. They can remount new fell beasts, and when they run out of those, they can use the mordor horses to keep their men under control, weaken their foes and particularly the dragons

But depending on wherever the WK army is fighting they'd have to travel all the way back to Minas Morgul or wherever they happen to be stashing their mounts, putting them out of the fight for a while at least.


Well when they were on a moving river, i don't think it was a good situation. But it went down before it could make a difference

Makes me wonder how many epics could have ended at any moment from a lucky shot.

[EvilElitest]

That makes sense. So WK didn't rule Angmar when he was alive, or he did and just continued his rule after death?

Angmar wasn't built until the third age, so he was long since a wraith.


I didn't know if she was included or not.
i'm pretty sure she was, i'd have to check again, but i'm pretty sure she was



Heh. I did say he was a Belkar Bitterleaf rip off.
fair enough



I guess he'd try and smash them with his sword before it breaks. WK tends to wait until it's dramatic rather than practical to pull that trick. I.E. Frodo at the ford but not Eowyn at Pelennor Field. But I guess he could fireball WK's weapons or something.

1) But think for a second. soth doesn't know that his weapon breaks when he stabs the Wk. He'd fight as per normal, he'd take some hits but eventually he'd pull off a blow, only to find that his sword falls apart and his attack fails. Then he'd be unarmed. He wouldn't instantly switch to fisti cuffs, through i imagine he'd have magic as a back up
2) the WK uses his attack when he thinks he has a chance of being hurt. Frodo was using a barrow blade, and so the Wk knew he couldn't allow frodo a chance of hurting him and broke it. Eowyn was using a normal weapon, so he didn't see the need, he was in a hurry to get back to the battle
3) Does fire ball break weapons like that? I mean it could hurt the Wk somewhat, but no super special awesome stuff. WK is going up against him with a giant mace and flaming sword


1) Do what? I'm sure they'd be affected, but saying that they'd be 'screwed' implies no chance whatsoever especially for something like a dragon.
2) Couldn't he have pursued or something?
3) Common sense just isn't fantastic enough. Heh.


1) Against the direct black breath or an arrow coated in it, there really isn't anything they can do, they are doomed, it is just how long they can last. Dragons could resist the black shadow and hte black breath aura (along with fear/despair) for a while, but will eventually succumb if exposed too long
2) Well imagine this, he falls from the fell beast somewhere on the wrong side of the river. The fellowship are in boats going through some rapids. By the time he, on foot (nazgul don't do well in day light or without mounts) gets back to the place where he saw them, htey have long since gone down river. Not to mention he needs to rejoin his troops if he hopes to pursue. Instead he returned to mordor, the nazgul were needed as messangers for Sauron's forces
3) Heh


Yeah. They were at least large enough to carry a rider. Fireflash was big enough to carry two at least. Isn't there some chart that says how big something has to be to carry a human sized rider? (Or two dwarf and kender sized riders.)

and old dragons can carry quite a few dragons, if they can only carry one (the blue general's dragon could carry three i think, biggest guy there) then they aren't that big.


But depending on wherever the WK army is fighting they'd have to travel all the way back to Minas Morgul or wherever they happen to be stashing their mounts, putting them out of the fight for a while at least.


hmmm, good point, but it is a big battle, they just mount horses and return. or they might have some extra mounts with the main force. It would put them out of the fight, but they are far from gone. And when they get their mounts, they can return very very quickly




Makes me wonder how many epics could have ended at any moment from a lucky shot.
Well look what happened to Achilles
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

1) But think for a second. soth doesn't know that his weapon breaks when he stabs the Wk. He'd fight as per normal, he'd take some hits but eventually he'd pull off a blow, only to find that his sword falls apart and his attack fails. Then he'd be unarmed. He wouldn't instantly switch to fisti cuffs, through i imagine he'd have magic as a back up
2) the WK uses his attack when he thinks he has a chance of being hurt. Frodo was using a barrow blade, and so the Wk knew he couldn't allow frodo a chance of hurting him and broke it. Eowyn was using a normal weapon, so he didn't see the need, he was in a hurry to get back to the battle
3) Does fire ball break weapons like that? I mean it could hurt the Wk somewhat, but no super special awesome stuff. WK is going up against him with a giant mace and flaming sword

1) Or he might start off with magic first before sword stabbing, but same results mostly.
2) Frodo was also on the other side of the river, completely out of his sword's short stabbing range (I think that's what happened.)
3) It sets stuff on fire and causes fire damage. How much it would take to warp weapons is a matter of science. I guess he could freeze them to breaking point too. It's what he did to Palanthas' gates.


1) Against the direct black breath or an arrow coated in it, there really isn't anything they can do, they are doomed, it is just how long they can last. Dragons could resist the black shadow and hte black breath aura (along with fear/despair) for a while, but will eventually succumb if exposed too long
2) Well imagine this, he falls from the fell beast somewhere on the wrong side of the river. The fellowship are in boats going through some rapids. By the time he, on foot (nazgul don't do well in day light or without mounts) gets back to the place where he saw them, htey have long since gone down river. Not to mention he needs to rejoin his troops if he hopes to pursue. Instead he returned to mordor, the nazgul were needed as messangers for Sauron's forces
3) Heh

1) Assuming the arrow pierced its scales and the curse overcame its SR, yes. I wouldn't think it's his 'presence' exactly that causes death though, or half the army of Gondor wouldn't have lived. I think he has to concentrate or work his magic first.
2) I see. F


and old dragons can carry quite a few dragons, if they can only carry one (the blue general's dragon could carry three i think, biggest guy there) then they aren't that big.

Hence why I want to see if there's a size-age chart for dragons so we can know for sure.


hmmm, good point, but it is a big battle, they just mount horses and return. or they might have some extra mounts with the main force. It would put them out of the fight, but they are far from gone. And when they get their mounts, they can return very very quickly

I don't think there's be many of these special mounts since there's only nine nazgul, but true.



Well look what happened to Achilles
from
EE

I'll bet in real life Hector killed him and his men covered it up.


I notice it seems to be just the two of us again.

[EvilElitest]

1) Or he might start off with magic first before sword stabbing, but same results mostly.
2) Frodo was also on the other side of the river, completely out of his sword's short stabbing range (I think that's what happened.)
3) It sets stuff on fire and causes fire damage. How much it would take to warp weapons is a matter of science. I guess he could freeze them to breaking point too. It's what he did to Palanthas' gates.

1) Normally he doesn't do that in duels i think through, however if he realizes he is in trouble he will resort to magic
2) Frodo also had a dangerous sword, and he nazgul planned to sweep across the river and take him, so it is worth getting read of his dagerous defense first
3) Fair enough, through i don't know if he could pull it off in a fight



1) Assuming the arrow pierced its scales and the curse overcame its SR, yes. I wouldn't think it's his 'presence' exactly that causes death though, or half the army of Gondor wouldn't have lived. I think he has to concentrate or work his magic first.
2) I see. F

1a) Plenty of arrows to use, and it will eventually work, i mean the passive effects along are damaging enough .
1B) your confusing Black Shadow with Black Breath. The shadow is the crop duster effect, and it is much weaker, (through some dragons will eventually be effected) while the far more powerful black breath is a limited range/aura effect. If you directly attack the nazgul (IE hit them) you are over come by it, like Merry and Eowyn. Don't forget the fear and despair
2) eh?


Hence why I want to see if there's a size-age chart for dragons so we can know for sure.


I don't have the book on dragons, but i think a these guys are juivinle to young adult (with a few full adults) if that is all they can carry


I don't think there's be many of these special mounts since there's only nine nazgul, but true.


They replace them pretty quickly, through i imagine if will eventually run out. Even then, they have their horses



I'll bet in real life Hector killed him and his men covered it up.


eh, didn't Achilles kill hector and paris shoot the arrow?




I notice it seems to be just the two of us again.
Well i'm fine with it, your a very reasonable debater.
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

1) Normally he doesn't do that in duels i think through, however if he realizes he is in trouble he will resort to magic
2) Frodo also had a dangerous sword, and he nazgul planned to sweep across the river and take him, so it is worth getting read of his dagerous defense first
3) Fair enough, through i don't know if he could pull it off in a fight

1) Yeah, especially if it turns out his opponent is a magical swordsman too.
2) He wasn't much of a swordsman so how much he could have done is debatable, but that's a good point.
3) Well we'll never know.



1a) Plenty of arrows to use, and it will eventually work, i mean the passive effects along are damaging enough .
1B) your confusing Black Shadow with Black Breath. The shadow is the crop duster effect, and it is much weaker, (through some dragons will eventually be effected) while the far more powerful black breath is a limited range/aura effect. If you directly attack the nazgul (IE hit them) you are over come by it, like Merry and Eowyn. Don't forget the fear and despair
2) eh?

1) OH! Okay, I didn't know there was a difference between the two. Thanks. That makes more sense.
2) Huh...I was trying to say 'fair enough.' Must have hit enter too soon.



I don't have the book on dragons, but i think a these guys are juivinle to young adult (with a few full adults) if that is all they can carry

Draconomicon puts that at around 30 to 50 feet. However old that may be.



They replace them pretty quickly, through i imagine if will eventually run out. Even then, they have their horses

Hard to fly at dragons on horses. Though that remind me, when I read the trilogy in grade school I figured the fell beasts were flying horses.


eh, didn't Achilles kill hector and paris shoot the arrow?

So Homer would have us believe.


Well i'm fine with it, your a very reasonable debater.
from
EE

Ah, thanks. You're the same...I don't see why everyone says otherwise.

[Mr. Scaly]

I hereby call a draw with the following conditions.

In army battle WK would win since he vastly outnumbers the Blue Wing and has the Black Shadow to instill fear in his enemies.

In personal duel Soth would win since his magic is more directly harmful to WK and it's been shown that he could hurt him without his sword.

Both get a 'BUT...' though.

It has to be understood that in army battle overall Soth has better troops and with some very careful tactics it's possible they could win since literature has all kinds of situations where small outnumbered forces massacre large armies. Dragons help with that, especially if they don't directly engage nazgul on a regular basis, and the flying citadel provides a nigh impenetrable mobile fortress to fall back upon. I don't think it would be enough but it's happened before.

In the duel it largely comes down to their individual skills and how good Soth is at unarmed fighting. I'd bet good money that he's damn good and that he can use his magic to hurt WK first or destroy his weapons but for a while there he's at a disadvantage. Magically he's largely immune to anything but godly power and there's no evidence of him being physically hurt but it's possible and WK is no slouch with that mace either.

[Steven the Lich]

I believe that quality is better than quantity in many aspects.
LotRs is full to the brink with hopeless odds for the good guys because they are so vastly outnumbered. However, we see them top Sauron's in multiple battles, despite overwhelming numbers for the enemy. They win through tactical expertise, defensive position (Though they have been known to fight outsidethe walls of a fort or city), and perhaps two of the most important factors... luck and skill. Sure, the orcs have so many numbers, but consider this... Can they be trained into the most elite force in Middle Earth? Hell, no. In fact, greater numbers means a harder time to train them, as well as a longer duration of training. Orcs have no outstanding moral, and tend to kill themselves when not in battle, as we see in multiple cases. I also doubt they can afford top knotch material that will serve them flawlessly in battle in the numbers they come in. Soth has better quality for soldiers, and even has dragons... d-r-a-g-o-n-s... While they may not be as epic as LotRs dragons, the orcs will still be at low spirits, WK withstanding or no. Dragons can engage with the Nazgul on a good basis and win by just grounding the Nazgul. In a immediate battle, I don't think the WK can just go back to his fort to get a new mount without abandoning his forces on the battlefield... which would cause them to run away like rats due to the absence of their leader and the pressing intimidation of their enemies. I recall no such description that the WK brought an assortment of extra Fell Beasts with him when going into battle, so he'll have to go to his fortress to get another. So if the WK gets grounded (More than likely when fighting dragons), he'll either go get a new one and leave his army leaderless and low moral, and come back to find it very much scattered. From descriptions you gave us on the orcs dedication to the WK, his prescense would be the only thing keeping them from running, so the moment he leaves the battle to fetch a new mount... Keep in mind he'll be walking back.
Here are some tactics Soth can use...
Rising sun. Charge in when the sun rises, and charge from the dircetion the sun rises. Such a tactic has been used before, and orcs hate sunlight I hear.
By the way, couldn't a dragon just chomp down on the WK and kill him? Because I think that would be possible, considering a dragons teeth aren't swords. I won't argue that the Dragon would die drom the Black Breath, and maybe his teeth would be shattered, but it could get the job done.
Anyway, I'll now answer some unanswered questions directed at me, which I never really got to.
EE, I know of no Bajo on this thread. I think you misspelled his name. Maybe you meant to say Banjo... And if I'm his brother... Oh you found out my true identity. I AM CHUCKLES! The evil clown puppet! Feel the wrath of my stick! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
... What? Oh come on, you don't really believe that do you? I was joking. Though I could have done that so much better with a chuckles smilie.
Yes, Bago is my brother. The doctor didn't tell me how a lich can have a goblin for a brother (And I'm not a goblin lich), but he told me it was better not to ask.

I also would like to set this straight for the absolute record. EE and Tyrant, you clearly aren't understanding my point. I never did nullify any of the WK's powers, nor did I say they were completely overwritten. I never actually took that stance. You accused me of doing so, though.
I'll leave a simple example to prove my point.
There is a guy in a low magic universe with a barrier that blocks all swords. There are no epic magic swords in that universe, and a lot of stuff in it is weak.
That guy now travels to a new more higher magic setting universe. His shield remains, no normal sword is effective against him. A guy with a magic sword comes along. He attacks with his sword. The guy from another universe scoffs at the idea a sword can penetrate his shield. Sword cuts through, and guy dies, because the magic of the sword is greater than the shield, despite so called presumptions that no sword ever can penetrate his shield.
I never favored Warcraft over LotRs (I find both to be cool), and I never dispelled a single spell as it crossed over into another universe. I'm simply pointing out that while one thing may be absolute in one universe, certain factors need to be considered for another universe... like magic enchantments on swords, making some godly in power.
I find no credibility in stating "Not even the sword of the mightiest evil being in the universe of Warcraft can penetrate the shield of a being so much lower in power than him who is from a universe with no such magic weapon" just because the author of the latter said "no sword, though mightier hands have wielded it, would have dealt a wound so bitter". The word of an author is the word of god in his book. HIS book. It is just championing to take the word of god of one book and say it is automatically true in others, especially in the case of "No sword can penetrate his shield".

[Tyrant]

I also would like to set this straight for the absolute record. EE and Tyrant, you clearly aren't understanding my point.
I understand your point. Part of it involves never hearing the David vs Goliath story apparently. Might doesn't always win and isn't the answer to all problems. Don't get me wrong, I will almost always believe the stronger of two opponents will win. That is how it usually works, in real life. However, not always and even less often in fantasy.


I'll leave a simple example to prove my point.
There is a guy in a low magic universe with a barrier that blocks all swords. There are no epic magic swords in that universe, and a lot of stuff in it is weak.
That guy now travels to a new more higher magic setting universe. His shield remains, no normal sword is effective against him. A guy with a magic sword comes along. He attacks with his sword. The guy from another universe scoffs at the idea a sword can penetrate his shield. Sword cuts through, and guy dies, because the magic of the sword is greater than the shield, despite so called presumptions that no sword ever can penetrate his shield.
But why can the sword do that? Is it enchanted to bypass defenses, or just magical in general? That is what I am saying. Your route leads me to believe that an enchanted table knife from WoW that is the absolute greatest at carving meat and is used by the most powerful demon in existance can carve through battle armor for no other reason than it is magical and comes from a high magic setting. Here is your entire case: High magic beats low magic. In some cases you are right. I expect a high level wizard to beat a low level one. I don't expect a high level wizard from a low level setting to automatically lose to a low level wizard from a high level setting unless there is reason to believe one really is more powerful than the other (which is entirely possible). Besides, where exactly in this equation does the magic of a weapon interact with the shield if the weapon doesn't have shield breaking qualities? Ramble about divine armor all you want, it was singled out in a universe that has magical defenses of other types though I am not suprised that the idea of being able to overcome one defense and not another is hard to grasp at this point. Take a Genie's lamp for instance. I would ague that it is undeniably a powerful object (unless you think something that can summon a creature that break the rules of reality and having it at your command isn't powerful, in which case just stop reading now). However, no matter how powerful it is, I don't expect it to shatter a magical shield even if I use the kind of pointy end (or even as a blunt object). It simply isn't the right tool for the job no matter how powerful it is.

High magic doesn't equal autowin and doesn't just randomly confer qualities onto items. They can either do something or they can't. They don't suddenly gain new abilities because their foes have lesser magic. It is within my power to kill someone (within anyone's power really, but that has no bearing on this). I don't suddenly gain the ability to launch a psychic attack through the ground (thereby penetrating the defenses afforded by being underground) against the queen if I decide to kill some ants (though that would make it completely worth it to start killing ants for the hell of it). I have to think of some way to bypass the defenses of the colony. My superiority doesn't give me an auto win on the power of awesome.

I have no doubt that the creatures that wield the weapons you speak of from WoW are probably powerful (in most cases) to destroy the WK. However, they would do it through their magical power, not swords. There is nothing that allows their swords to work beyond a power level over 9000 (which, last I checked, doesn't automatically mean they bypass magical shielding). They aren't enchanted to bypass any and all defenses (that would work). They aren't enchanted to destroy undead (that would work). They are simply the wrong tool for the job. If you need a phillips screwdriver, a pipe wrench won't work no matter how magical it is (unless it were enchanted to also act as a phillips screwdriver which for this example and the one were discussing it isn't). The wrong tool usually can't get the job done no matter how much you payed for that tool (increased cost implies better materials, craftsmanship, etc). You can think and claim that it can all you want, but it won't help you finish the job any faster and you just end up looking like a fool who can't figure out how to use a screwdriver while insisting that a hammer fixes everything and you just need to find a bigger hammer.

[Steven the Lich]

I understand your point. Part of it involves never hearing the David vs Goliath story apparently. Might doesn't always win and isn't the answer to all problems. Don't get me wrong, I will almost always believe the stronger of two opponents will win. That is how it usually works, in real life. However, not always and even less often in fantasy. Might doesn't always win, I agree there. But then again, this is technically magic vs. a stronger magic.
If you do understand my point, then you are just twisting my words. When I say magic items in a higher magic setting are more capable in penetrating a magic shield in a setting of lower magic, you seem to say I am favoring the higher magic setting and nullifying the power of the lower magic setting.
I am using common sense here. It is incredibly likely that Illuvatar could make a mighty sword and slay the WK utterly if he wanted to, so why can't Sargeras, who too was a being of immeasureable power and considered a god, can't use the mightiest sword in the universe to cremate the WK? I'd say the sword has more magic than the WK has in his entire body.
Oh, and for the closing sentence, it isn't even less in fantasy. In fact, there are more ways to bypass a defense in fantasy. Though in fantasy, there are more types of defenses as well, that is a given. Common sense dictates, though, that any defense can be overcome with the right amount of logic.
Bago pointed this out, but I'll repeat his point.
A wall is invulnerable to swords. You go and get a bazooka. You make a dent, but the wall is still there. Get a cannon, makes a dent too, wall still stands. Get a tank, and if that doesn't work, fire a missile. If even that doesn't work, some other ways to get past would be to dig a tunnel under, or fly on a pane over. A wall can't keep everything out. Even if there is a cited weakness, there are bound to be other effective means


But why can the sword do that? Is it enchanted to bypass defenses, or just magical in general? It can because it is of stronger magic than the shield. It comes from a higher magic setting. The shield is of a lower magic setting, described to be immune to normal swords, and there are no magic swords in that setting. I also stated that magic in the setting was weak. By logic, a magical sword of stronger magic can break the shield. Even if it is described to be absolute in the world of origin, that doesn't give it greater power in other worlds.
What you are doing is pretty much giving it more power.


High magic doesn't equal autowin and doesn't just randomly confer qualities onto items. They can either do something or they can't. They don't suddenly gain new abilities because their foes have lesser magic. It is within my power to kill someone (within anyone's power really, but that has no bearing on this). I don't suddenly gain the ability to launch a psychic attack through the ground (thereby penetrating the defenses afforded by being underground) against the queen if I decide to kill some ants (though that would make it completely worth it to start killing ants for the hell of it). I have to think of some way to bypass the defenses of the colony. My superiority doesn't give me an auto win on the power of awesome. That is correct, higher-magic is not a auto-win, but it is an asset that is not to be dismissed so easily just because of the requirement of specific weapons in the world of question.
I also would like to state that you are making examples completely irrelevent to the argument. Also makes no sense. If that is suppose to be a representation of my point, it isn't very accurate. And the answer is simple to bypass the defenses of the colony. Pour water into the ant hole. Cruel but effective I'm sure.

You know what, why are we even arguing about this now. It was very much proven that Tolkien never said the Barrow Blade was the only way to harm the WK.

I just found an interesting question that went unanswered.

Something that's been bugging me about some of the discussion here.

Where are people getting the idea that Nazgul are intangible (and therefore need a ghost-touch weapon or whatever to be harmed)?

Is it just because the word "wraith" is attached to them? That seems to be the primary argument. (edit - maybe the "give shape to their nothingness" line?)

All of the description I can remember just says that they are invisible, not ghostly (in fact a few lines make specific mention of them having bodies, "undead flesh" and "unseen sinews" for example). If anybody has a specific line to support the etherealness, I'd like to see it. As asked by Walking Target.
He brings a good point, where is it stated that the Ring Wraiths are ghosts? I did read that they are invisible and wear the black cloaks so they could be seen, but I'm not so sure that there is a spot in the books that define that the Ring Wraiths are ghosts.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Hum...there is one detail with the protection the Witchking has...

Even weapons that are specifically made to hurt him are destroyed when they strike him...

They are made just to order even then they are destroyed if they hit.

That detail should tell you something about how dangerous the protection he has actually can be.

As for ethereal, the ringwraiths are said to be partly of this world and partlyy of another. I am guessing that you could define ephemeral that way.
Remember the ringwraiths who were hit by torches just back away of Strider without really seeming to be in much pain.
Their robes burn quite well but they themselves seem to nor really care too much.
They ran off after ganking Frodo fully expecting Frodo to die from that.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think what Steven is saying that if two magics come into conflict the stronger one would logically override the weaker one. Am I right on that? Thus if a stronger magic artifact faces a weaker magical field it would overcome it.

There's a Baldurs Gate example I'd like to use here...Protection from Magic Weapons. Protects against damage from ANY magical weapon, no matter how powerful. BUT the caster can still be wounded by a nonmagical butter knife because it doesn't protect against that.

[EvilElitest]

My hand healed horray



1) Yeah, especially if it turns out his opponent is a magical swordsman too.
2) He wasn't much of a swordsman so how much he could have done is debatable, but that's a good point.
3) Well we'll never know.

If they fought single combat, he'd use his sword. When it broke, it will be Soth with fisti cuffs and magic against a sword and mace.
2) Well its a risk however, one taht costs the WK nothing to eliminate
3) Soth doesn't normaly do that in a fight however, he could destory Morgul's gate through


1) OH! Okay, I didn't know there was a difference between the two. Thanks. That makes more sense.
2) Huh...I was trying to say 'fair enough.' Must have hit enter too soon.


1) no problem, glad to clear that up. One is a crop duster, another is more like an aura
2) Oh, ok then, ok that happens to everybody


Draconomicon puts that at around 30 to 50 feet. However old that may be.

at waht age?



Hard to fly at dragons on horses. Though that remind me, when I read the trilogy in grade school I figured the fell beasts were flying horses.


1) True, through by the time the nazgul run out of fel beasts, they wont' be as many dragons due to the nazgul or the arrows/rocks. The nazgul on horses can still oversee their forces however, and use their black breath/fear/despair and in the WK's case, magic
2) hey, me too actually, and i thought i was right when i watched hte old cartoon version



So Homer would have us believe.

duh duh duh



Ah, thanks. You're the same...I don't see why everyone says otherwise.
thanks, through people saying i'm a bad debaters really grats the nerves. I'm stubborn, no question there, but that doesn't make my points any less accurate



I hereby call a draw with the following conditions.

In army battle WK would win since he vastly outnumbers the Blue Wing and has the Black Shadow to instill fear in his enemies.
true,


In personal duel Soth would win since his magic is more directly harmful to WK and it's been shown that he could hurt him without his sword.

meh, alright, through i'm kinda vauge on Soth's magic, we do know he can hurt with his hands, and has killed at least one ghost that way (snaped his neck, through the other guy wasn't a fighter)
.


It has to be understood that in army battle overall Soth has better troops and with some very careful tactics it's possible they could win since literature has all kinds of situations where small outnumbered forces massacre large armies. Dragons help with that, especially if they don't directly engage nazgul on a regular basis, and the flying citadel provides a nigh impenetrable mobile fortress to fall back upon. I don't think it would be enough but it's happened before.
That being said, as i pointed out before, The Wk's force can inflict so many casualties against Soth's forces that it doesn't even really matter. The nazgul don't even need to directly attack the dragons, just use their black breath and what not


In the duel it largely comes down to their individual skills and how good Soth is at unarmed fighting. I'd bet good money that he's damn good and that he can use his magic to hurt WK first or destroy his weapons but for a while there he's at a disadvantage. Magically he's largely immune to anything but godly power and there's no evidence of him being physically hurt but it's possible and WK is no slouch with that mace either.



1) Well i think Soth is a better swordsmen, however i don't know abotu his unarmed fighting
2) What spells does he have that can hurt him again?
3) He has magic resistance, but not to hte level that you've described



I believe that quality is better than quantity in many aspects.
Only when used well, and not in every case. Quality can beat quantity but it needs to be used well, and it isn't perfect. For every battle that Hannibal wins, there are a hundred losses. Quality often requires the enemy to not use quantity well. In theory, quality can defeat quantity, but not in this case, because the mass quantity can over come the quality, which isn't that far ahead.



LotRs is full to the brink with hopeless odds for the good guys because they are so vastly outnumbered. However, we see them top Sauron's in multiple battles, despite overwhelming numbers for the enemy. They win through tactical expertise, defensive position
Yeah, but they have specific advantages. Just because some people can pull it off under certain situations doesn't mean they all can. And the good guys of ME lose.........a lot. And even when they win, it is often really really tough. Name me a battle, and i will explain why they won.


(Though they have been known to fight outsidethe walls of a fort or city), and perhaps two of the most important factors... luck and skill. Sure, the orcs have so many numbers, but consider this... Can they be trained into the most elite force in Middle Earth?
Small band can be expertly trained, the Uruk hai of Baradur are nasty bastards, the body guard of blog slew Thorne okenshield, and Boldogs are nasty (but they are part spirit so...) And elite troops do not mean you always win. They help, but they don't win, it is who has the best army who wins.


Hell, no. In fact, greater numbers means a harder time to train them, as well as a longer duration of training.
So? The WK's elite troops are his human forces, so he has actual good troops. The orcs fill a very important position, mass fodder. As orcs are better than Goblins, and can swarm humans, orges, hobgoblins, and draconics they suit their purpose. The Wk has hundreds of thousands of orcs, along with elite forces. The Wk doesn't care how many many he losses as long as he wins, and he just needs to bring down his enemies. Just becasue the orcs aren't taht good (they aren't total crap, but they aren't amazing) they just need to suit their purpose


Orcs have no outstanding moral, and tend to kill themselves when not in battle, as we see in multiple cases.
not when they are being overseen, which is this situation. They lose moral and fight each other when they aren't being overseen and have not other enemy (see Frodo's statement when witnessing an orc murder in mordor)


I also doubt they can afford top knotch material that will serve them flawlessly in battle in the numbers they come in.
So? They just need to suit their purpose. There are so freaking many of them that they can just bring down their foes, which considering their numbers they will bring down plenty. Soth doesn't have enough men. His entire army is small, and not all of them are elite. Goblins are crap, hobgoblins are decent but limited, Orges are stupid and small in numbers, humans are adverage but few, and he has a limited numbers of dragon beings or greater undead, and orcs can beat minor undead. Orcs aren't good, but they can still do their job. Which is really what matters. Also, the Wk has forces besides orcs. Hill men, morgul men, men of angmar, uruk hai, orc men, half orcs, troll men, half orcs, trolls, Olag hai, Men of Rhaduar, some northern dunadian, Haradrim, Easterlings, Men of Rhu and Swertling, and fell beasts ect.



Soth has better quality for soldiers, and even has dragons... d-r-a-g-o-n-s... While they may not be as epic as LotRs dragons, the orcs will still be at low spirits, WK withstanding or no.
And as i said, they will inflict, just not enough. They are half a hundred in number, they aren't super powerful, they have weaknesses, and the Wk has plenty of resources to deal with them.


Dragons can engage with the Nazgul on a good basis and win by just grounding the Nazgul.
All the nazgul have to do is stay out of the dragons reach and let their magic work



I recall no such description that the WK brought an assortment of extra Fell Beasts with him when going into battle, so he'll have to go to his fortress to get another. So if the WK gets grounded (More than likely when fighting dragons), he'll either go get a new one and leave his army leaderless and low moral, and come back to find it very much scattered. From descriptions you gave us on the orcs dedication to the WK, his prescense would be the only thing keeping them from running, so the moment he leaves the battle to fetch a new mount... Keep in mind he'll be walking back.
Wrong. When he fled from the main gate of gondor, he returned with a larger than normal fel beast. As he didn't walk back to mordor, he must have had one around. Also three other nazgul were diven down by gandalf but came back on mounts. When he runs out of field mounts, he can send the other eight to get re mounted (they will be mounted on horses).



Rising sun. Charge in when the sun rises, and charge from the dircetion the sun rises. Such a tactic has been used before, and orcs hate sunlight I hear.
Um, yeah, it works, when the orcs were flanked and attacked by behind. A blind charge wouldn't work because
a) his entire force isn't mounted
b) his force is too small
c) you haven't explained how he out flanks his foes
d) the Wk has forces who can work in the light
e) um defensive position?

Blind charge doesn't work on its own. You need to rout his forces first.


By the way, couldn't a dragon just chomp down on the WK and kill him? Because I think that would be possible, considering a dragons teeth aren't swords. I won't argue that the Dragon would die drom the Black Breath, and maybe his teeth would be shattered, but it could get the job done.

how would it hurt him, it can't over come his protection (see the other quote with the arrow)


EE, I know of no Bajo on this thread. I think you misspelled his name. Maybe you meant to say Banjo... And if I'm his brother... Oh you found out my true identity. I AM CHUCKLES! The evil clown puppet! Feel the wrath of my stick! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Explains so much


... What? Oh come on, you don't really believe that do you? I was joking. Though I could have done that so much better with a chuckles smilie.
Yes, Bago is my brother. The doctor didn't tell me how a lich can have a goblin for a brother (And I'm not a goblin lich), but he told me it was better not to ask.

OK, i'll try not to think about it


I also would like to set this straight for the absolute record. EE and Tyrant, you clearly aren't understanding my point. I never did nullify any of the WK's powers, nor did I say they were completely overwritten. I never actually took that stance. You accused me of doing so, though.
Yes you did, you took away his protection, which doesn't work on a "power scale" style.


I'll leave a simple example to prove my point.
There is a guy in a low magic universe with a barrier that blocks all swords. There are no epic magic swords in that universe, and a lot of stuff in it is weak.
That guy now travels to a new more higher magic setting universe. His shield remains, no normal sword is effective against him. A guy with a magic sword comes along. He attacks with his sword. The guy from another universe scoffs at the idea a sword can penetrate his shield. Sword cuts through, and guy dies, because the magic of the sword is greater than the shield, despite so called presumptions that no sword ever can penetrate his shield.

Do these epic weapons have the ability to over come specific enchantments to over come such spell. No? Well too bad. Power levels have nothing to do with the WK's protection, because weapons more powerful than the barrow blade can't hurt him. Power level means nothing, it is like Zelda, only one thing can work


I never favored Warcraft over LotRs (I find both to be cool), and I never dispelled a single spell as it crossed over into another universe. I'm simply pointing out that while one thing may be absolute in one universe, certain factors need to be considered for another universe... like magic enchantments on swords, making some godly in power.
Except your ignoring how the WK's protection works. It isn't a sense of power, with shield 100 failing against weapons with power 101 up. It is a specific enchantment not


But then again, this is technically magic vs. a stronger magic.
no its not, because the WK's shield has nothing to do with magic level


Mr. Scaly you got it right in the second example
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

thanks, through people saying i'm a bad debaters really grats the nerves. I'm stubborn, no question there, but that doesn't make my points any less accurate You saying I'm championing powers and demolishing the WK's doesn't make my points any less accurate as well. You haven't really convinced me to think otherwise, and what you and Tyrant are doing really is irritating me.


That being said, as i pointed out before, The Wk's force can inflict so many casualties against Soth's forces that it doesn't even really matter. The nazgul don't even need to directly attack the dragons, just use their black breath and what not I would agree that if Dragons attacked the Nazgul directly, they would be affected by the Black Breath. Just by flying around the Nazgul's airspace? I believe Magic Resistance covers that.


Only when used well, and not in every case. Quality can beat quantity but it needs to be used well, and it isn't perfect. For every battle that Hannibal wins, there are a hundred losses. Quality often requires the enemy to not use quantity well. In theory, quality can defeat quantity, but not in this case, because the mass quantity can over come the quality, which isn't that far ahead. Seriously, WK used his quantity well and lost. Sauron lost using it on several occasions, whether its a deus ex machina that intervenes or no. Remember that Osgiliath was defended by only a few humans, yet they held their ground well enough, until Sauron decided to try a night strike.
Soth has magic, dragons, undead... WK's forces get only one of those three, and I don't think the WK can use magic to the extent Soth can.


Small band can be expertly trained, the Uruk hai of Baradur are nasty bastards, the body guard of blog slew Thorne okenshield, and Boldogs are nasty (but they are part spirit so...) And elite troops do not mean you always win. They help, but they don't win, it is who has the best army who wins. You're right, they help, but tactics ultimately win. Not oversized armies.


Quality often requires the enemy to not use quantity well. In theory, quality can defeat quantity, but not in this case, because the mass quantity can over come the quality, which isn't that far ahead. Yeah... Soth doesn't have anything that big... no wait... he does. DRAGONS! Orcs are going to have a hard time taking those dudes down, and the WK only needs to be on the ground for a bit for the dragons to roast the orcs to a golden crisp. Mmmmmmm... orc smores... No wait... Blech, horrible taste.


Yeah, but they have specific advantages. Just because some people can pull it off under certain situations doesn't mean they all can. And the good guys of ME lose.........a lot. And even when they win, it is often really really tough. Name me a battle, and i will explain why they won. I know the specific reasons each of them won. Deus ex machina. Seems to happen a lot in LotRs. So tell me, wouldn't that happen in this battle as well? The will of god is never with Sauron. Soth seems to have better luck.


So? The WK's elite troops are his human forces, so he has actual good troops. The orcs fill a very important position, mass fodder. As orcs are better than Goblins, and can swarm humans, orges, hobgoblins, and draconics they suit their purpose. The Wk has hundreds of thousands of orcs, along with elite forces. The Wk doesn't care how many many he losses as long as he wins, and he just needs to bring down his enemies. Just becasue the orcs aren't taht good (they aren't total crap, but they aren't amazing) they just need to suit their purpose All those orcs don't count as a win instantly, even with proper tactics. Yet they seem to you as a giant "Im-a-winner" button to you. Greater slaughter for greater numbers.


not when they are being overseen, which is this situation. They lose moral and fight each other when they aren't being overseen and have not other enemy (see Frodo's statement when witnessing an orc murder in mordor) Overseen by the WK. Any moment he leaves the field, they're bound to be scattered.


how would it hurt him, it can't over come his protection (see the other quote with the arrow) And we're back to the protection issue. What is the WK made of, adamantine? Dragons teeth man. I don't think the WK's protection does much against that. I don't think his protection does much to stop weapons and such, it only protects him from harm. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to turn swords to ash because they wouldn't be penetrating him. I honestly can't imagine a dragon biting down on the WK, letting him go, and him still being in one piece.
If what you say is true, hell, JRR Tolkien really screwed up this dude with so many godly protections that not even Sauron had. He made WK into the indestructible and evil chew toy.


All the nazgul have to do is stay out of the dragons reach and let their magic work Easier said than done. You act like thewy Nazgul would be able to casually sit back on their Fell Beasts while flying away from these scaled creatures that could easily kill their Fell Beasts simply biting the neck or such.


Wrong. When he fled from the main gate of gondor, he returned with a larger than normal fel beast. As he didn't walk back to mordor, he must have had one around. Also three other nazgul were diven down by gandalf but came back on mounts. When he runs out of field mounts, he can send the other eight to get re mounted (they will be mounted on horses). Okay, few question. Was his current mount dead? Wouldn't the heroes have seen spare mounts from their towers? Would that really be the case this time?
Also... You mean to say that the Fell Beast that Eowyn slew... slicing off the head with a sword... was one that was suppose to be bigger and tougher than a normal one... Wow, they really are *******.
Oh, and by the way... whats keeping the dragons from flying around the field and finding the cache of Fell Beast mounts and then burning them to a crisp? 50 dragons seem to be capable of that.


Yes you did, you took away his protection, which doesn't work on a "power scale" style. This is what I'm talking about. No I did not. If saying "The shield can be overcome by a god-like weapon" is removing the shield completely from the debate, completely weakening it to serve no use in another universe, then you are right. I would know my own argument and points better than you claim to without twisting my words into something completely different than what I implied. To you, I'm saying all magic entering the Warcraft universe is dispelled. What I'm saying is in other worlds, the WK's shield may not be as dominant as it is in LotRs.
In its own world, only the Barrowblade can remove it, but it is specifically meant to, designed in the aspect. Other weapons aren't so lucky, no matter how little sense it makes. However... Middle Earth lacks weapons belonging to gods... And I think if the Valar and Illuvatar made a sword of godly proportions, whether or not it has the Barrowblades enchantment, still a good bet that it can sever the WK in several pieces.


Do these epic weapons have the ability to over come specific enchantments to over come such spell. No? Well too bad. Power levels have nothing to do with the WK's protection, because weapons more powerful than the barrow blade can't hurt him. Power level means nothing, it is like Zelda, only one thing can work Maybe that is how it is in LotRs, but honestly, whose word and what divine right do you have to say that it works completely like that in all other universes. The more I hear about this protection, the less sense it makes.
Sauron is also put to shame as a minion vastly weaker than him actually has a stronger magic shield, that is stronger than the old one he had. That is just screwed up.


Except your ignoring how the WK's protection works. It isn't a sense of power, with shield 100 failing against weapons with power 101 up. It is a specific enchantment not I know exactly how the protection works, but I don't believe it won't shatter when confronted with a magic weapon that has god like powers.


no its not, because the WK's shield has nothing to do with magic level Says you. Does that mean you're right automatically? Not a chance. You realize that going by your view, the shield is just vastly overpowered. Not even a kamehameha, nor any other pure energy attack from DBZ, can get through, going by it through your logic. You realize that that just isn't credible, no matter how you go about it saying its true.
Besides, LotRs isn't high magic, and other universes have magic vastly stronger, with stronger sword enchants as well or stronger swords. You have no basis that they will not be effective other than the "No sword in the LotRs universe can do it". And thats just it, no sword in the LotRs universe other than the Barrowblade is ultimately effective, but that law doesn't go up for every universe in the whole fantasy genre.

[Tyrant]

Might doesn't always win, I agree there. But then again, this is technically magic vs. a stronger magic.
No it isn't. Based on the fact you avoided my question relating to this, I see you don't understand that. If it were a sword of a higher setting that had some ability in destroying magical defenses (but not said to be absolute, as the description for chaos damage that keeps getting brought up is not absolute), then I can see your argument that it will be stronger given it's background setting. However, what you are saying is that a sword with god like powers (though amongst them is not the ability to shatter magical shielding) can do whatever the hell it wants when it interacts with a lower level magical artifact. It doesn't work that way. It can do what it says it can do. If breaking magical shields isn't amongst them, how does it even interact on a magical level? Sure the physical sword will interact with his body in some way, but if it's magic doesn't concern that area then why does it suddenly kick in the power of awesome to overcome the shield? When something can only be destroyed in one way, other items (more powerful though they may be) don't suddenly gain the ability to hurt them without good reason. Again, I don't suddenly become 10 times stronger if I am faced with a midget in combat. I can still only do the things I could do before no matter how high my superiority in strength and stature are.

If it were truly a direct duel of their magics like you want to believe that it is (don't know why) then I could see merit in your argument. If one of these swords could fire out some type of mystical attack, then your on to something. As it is, it isn't something that destroys magical protections so why does it's power even interact with the WK's shield? I don't deny that it is a very powerful weapon.


If you do understand my point, then you are just twisting my words. When I say magic items in a higher magic setting are more capable in penetrating a magic shield in a setting of lower magic, you seem to say I am favoring the higher magic setting and nullifying the power of the lower magic setting.
If they are things that penetrate shields, sure more powerful can usually win (if it comes to a direct battle of powers). You're on to something. However, if the swords just has a random list of awesome powers that don't include that, why would it suddenly be able to do that? Is it in total more powerful, sure. However, it doesn't have the right power for the job.

I am using common sense here.
You are most definately not.

It is incredibly likely that Illuvatar could make a mighty sword and slay the WK utterly if he wanted to, so why can't Sargeras, who too was a being of immeasureable power and considered a god, can't use the mightiest sword in the universe to cremate the WK?
You answered your own question. Illuvatar could make a sword that could do that. "could make". He would know exactly what to target (or just wipe him out of existance if he took a really active role). Sargeras may be uber badass, but if his sword doesn't target what it needs to target then it won't work. His magics could probably destroy the WK without breaking a sweat. Stabbing him with his preffered piece of metal, not so much. Can he channel his own power or possibly imbue his weapon with an ability to hurt him, sure. The WK isn't anywhere near unstoppable. You just can't use the vast majority of swords to do the job. It's one thing that if you are going to use it needs to be of a very spefic type to work. Why is this so hard to grasp? You can't use just any radioactive crap from space against Superman no matter how awesome it is. It has to be kryptonite.


Oh, and for the closing sentence, it isn't even less in fantasy. In fact, there are more ways to bypass a defense in fantasy.
And yet you've been stuck on the "let me get the bigger hammer" routine for how many pages? If it is so full of these examples, why are you stuck on the one way that won't work in the face of at least myself conceding that there are other ways to kill him?



Though in fantasy, there are more types of defenses as well, that is a given. Common sense dictates, though, that any defense can be overcome with the right amount of logic.
I've never said otherwise. You're choosing to believe that logic is a hammer, which is wrong. Logic is finding something's vulnerability (which may involve throwing a variety of things at it until one of them finally wounds it), not beating on it over and over again with the same thing expecting a different result. If something can't be beaten with the frontal assault, you find a way around it. You don't just keep throwing the same things at it until it breaks. I mean you can try that, but you'd be stupid to do that when there are other far faster and better ways to do it. Like when a road meets a mountain. Do they do the utterly stupid and try to level the mountain (I'm sure someone has at least considered if not actually tried it, however that is obviously not what is considered a good idea)? No, they go over or through it. That is logic and reason.

You are proposing a slugfest. I'm saying go right ahead. You're opponent is a brick wall and you are using your bare fists. Hit it as hard as you want. You will break before it does. Your inevitable come back will involve a wrecking bar or something other than your hands (or kung fu or a body builder or some other random tangent that shows you are missing the point) so I'll save you some time. Note carefully what I said. I said you are hitting it with your bare fists. I never said the wall couldn't be destroyed in another way, just that it was invulnerable to you bashing it with your fists. It essentially has an immunity to that. It has one thing to which it is immune, your fists. Not anyone's fists, your's. Using something else you can overcome it. Using your fists beating on it, you can't. Any of this sinking yet or is this another obvious analogy that is going right by you?


Bago pointed this out, but I'll repeat his point. A wall is invulnerable to swords. You go and get a bazooka. You make a dent, but the wall is still there. Get a cannon, makes a dent too, wall still stands. Get a tank, and if that doesn't work, fire a missile. If even that doesn't work, some other ways to get past would be to dig a tunnel under, or fly on a pane over. A wall can't keep everything out. Even if there is a cited weakness, there are bound to be other effective means
He, like you, is missing the point. The wall was only said to be invulnerable to swords. How many of your methods were swords? The first one that didn't work by my count. The rest aren't swords. The wall was never said to be invulnerable to the other crap you are trying, so why wouldn't those other methods work? Between this and being utterly oblivious to my point with the Superman analogy I am wondering if you understand what logic is.


It can because it is of stronger magic than the shield. It comes from a higher magic setting. The shield is of a lower magic setting, described to be immune to normal swords, and there are no magic swords in that setting.
Really? None at all. Don't tell that to Tolkein (or whoever is watching over his estate) as he would disagree. Do his magical swords shatter worlds? No. Are they magical? Yes. Power doesn't count for much sometimes. I could take the strongest guy in the world and ask him to write a novel. Unless he is a good writer as well, his strength is pretty meaningless. Is this really such a hard concept to understand? Strength and power can count for absolutely nothing in the right situations. Stronger beings are brought low by weaker beings with reasonable frequency (more so in fantasy). Again, in the real world, we are the dominant military power on Earth without a doubt. Yet, we are having trouble with people so far behind the military curve it's like a bad joke. Why? Power doesn't win every battle. Sometimes it isn't the way to break your enemy.

I also stated that magic in the setting was weak. By logic, a magical sword of stronger magic can break the shield.

I am pretty sure I am not the only one in this thread who has disagreed with more than one of your statements, so the sweeping proclamation of the magic being weak on your say so doesn't really get you any points with me (not good ones anyway). You aren't using logic. It sounds good, but it isn't because you're omitting several facts, the least of which is that you can't absolutely state what would or would not happen or how powerful any of these things is in relation to one another. You can't form anything resembling a baseline for comparison or interaction. You have no idea what the supposed break point of the shield is and are left with nothing but assumption that another weapon meets or exceeds it. It isn't logic leading you to that conclusion (broken logic maybe). You don't have A>B. You have A=? and B=?. You are trying to say A>C or D or E while B<X, therefore A>B. That isn't how logic works. Applying logic to that (and that is what we have for all intents and purposes) gets you "does not compute". There is too little information (primarily from the Tolkein end) to form a reasonable conclusion. Obviously a conclusion can be formed as you are all too happy to do, but it isn't reasonable given the number of unknown quantities involved. That, coupled with your inability to grasp what absolutes are tells me that while you can claim to be using logic all you wan't, I'm not convinced you even understand the word.


That is correct, higher-magic is not a auto-win, but it is an asset that is not to be dismissed so easily just because of the requirement of specific weapons in the world of question.
Unless we have a reason to not believe the absolute (it being provably false, for instance), or if it is something that is obviously tied to the world in question (the strongest being on Earth for instance), then how do we determine how much power is enough to break those absolutes? That is the central flaw in your argument. You're entire come back is, " I don't know how powerful it needs to be, but surely this is strong enough". That may work for you. It isn't founded on logic. It is founded on satsifying your apparently low requirements for "proof". Why do you expect everyone else to be satisfyed with an answer that isn't really an answer? When the question is how much does it take, "I don't know but that's enough" doesn't satisfy most people (and if it does without good reason I wouldn't use them to back up your claims).


I also would like to state that you are making examples completely irrelevent to the argument. Also makes no sense. If that is suppose to be a representation of my point, it isn't very accurate. And the answer is simple to bypass the defenses of the colony. Pour water into the ant hole. Cruel but effective I'm sure.
I don't know what to say here. You're statment leads me to believe that you get it, but you're other statements tell me that you don't. Yes, the answer is bypass the defenses. That's my whole damn point. Your point is that you think you just need to keep grabbing bigger and bigger hammers for any and all problems no matter what tool is actually required. When you think like a hammer all of your problems start to look like nails.


You know what, why are we even arguing about this now. It was very much proven that Tolkien never said the Barrow Blade was the only way to harm the WK.
I was content to let it die until you kept going. That and seeing what you can come up with (along with writing monsterous replies) solves the issue of boredom.

There's a Baldurs Gate example I'd like to use here...Protection from Magic Weapons. Protects against damage from ANY magical weapon, no matter how powerful. BUT the caster can still be wounded by a nonmagical butter knife because it doesn't protect against that.
A perfect example of what I am talking about. Of course BG is wrong and Frostmourne can shatter that like glass because ANY magic weapon obviously never considered the awesomeness that is WoW. That's what I hear anyway.

[Steven the Lich]

No it isn't. Based on the fact you avoided my question relating to this, I see you don't understand that. If it were a sword of a higher setting that had some ability in destroying magical defenses (but not said to be absolute, as the description for chaos damage that keeps getting brought up is not absolute), then I can see your argument that it will be stronger given it's background setting. However, what you are saying is that a sword with god like powers (though amongst them is not the ability to shatter magical shielding) can do whatever the hell it wants when it interacts with a lower level magical artifact. It doesn't work that way. It can do what it says it can do. If breaking magical shields isn't amongst them, how does it even interact on a magical level? Sure the physical sword will interact with his body in some way, but if it's magic doesn't concern that area then why does it suddenly kick in the power of awesome to overcome the shield? When something can only be destroyed in one way, other items (more powerful though they may be) don't suddenly gain the ability to hurt them without good reason. Again, I don't suddenly become 10 times stronger if I am faced with a midget in combat. I can still only do the things I could do before no matter how high my superiority in strength and stature are. I'm not saying weapons of magic are amplyfied when faced with something weaker. Stop augmenting and deforming my argument to involve such false points.
I'm saying that logically, the sword of a god that is magical could break a magical shield if it is weaker, or a sword that is just of a stronger magic than the shield could overcome it. What you are saying is that even if the sword is godly powerful, and vastly stronger than the WK's shield (and don't give me any crap that the shield does not work on a power scale, as LotRs doesn't offer weapons on the power scale of Frostmourne, Sargeras' sword, etc.), couldn't get through it simply because "Sorry, the weapon wasn't designed to harm this dude".
Small skit.
Sargeras: Muahahahahaha, you shall pay for challenging me, Witch King.
WK: Brign it on, goat man.
Sargeras: Feel my wrath! (Attacks, WK is unscathed) wtf?
WK: My shield protects me from any swords excluding anti-undead or anti wraiths.
Sargeras: But I leveled worlds with this sword, I slew some of the greatest foes, I brought devastation in my wake with this sword. Your shield is of a vastly inferior nature. How does that make sense?
WK: Because it blocks ALL swords but holy ones.
Sargeras: My wrath is more terrible than the gods! I destroyed countless worlds! A being of your meager existence can not fathom my power!
WK: Doesn't matter, you need holy.
Sargeras: ... Damn you...

Not very credible, now is it? I also imagine the sword being so much larger than the WK himself... I mean, Titans (Which Sargeras is) are giants to say the least. The sword is likely oozing of magical power that he's gained from countless worlds. When it broke in two, he still had half and it became utter evil... And you say no matter what, it needs to have a meager holy enchant? Where is that BS button when you need it...


If they are things that penetrate shields, sure more powerful can usually win (if it comes to a direct battle of powers). You're on to something. However, if the swords just has a random list of awesome powers that don't include that, why would it suddenly be able to do that? Is it in total more powerful, sure. However, it doesn't have the right power for the job. No, that there is flawed.
Saying that all magical shields are invinceable unless confronted with something meant to destroy them... Absolute nonsense. Something doesn't need to be specifically designed to destroy a shield in order to break it, not even in the case of magic.


You are most definately not Are you?


You answered your own question. Illuvatar could make a sword that could do that. "could make". He would know exactly what to target (or just wipe him out of existance if he took a really active role Alright, now answer this one. Could he make any other kind of sword not following the WK's cited weaknesses, and would it not work? If you say he can't, you are doubting the power of gods vs. a meager mortal, WK or otherwise.


And yet you've been stuck on the "let me get the bigger hammer" routine for how many pages? If it is so full of these examples, why are you stuck on the one way that won't work in the face of at least myself conceding that there are other ways to kill And you've been twisting my words to mean something entirely different for how many pages? You concede that there are other ways to kill him, but you simply refuse to accept that the shield could be destroyed by something other than a holy sword. Really, if what you said was true, the WK has a protection greater than anything Sauron ever had, because not even a kamehameha can scratch him, excluding "holy" weapons. Going by LotRs actually, not EVEN holy weapons can get through, and that is just plain broken. I seriously doubt Tolkien would make it that way. You claim that he would have mentioned an exception, but heres one that would sound awkward all the way.
"His shield could be destroyed if Illuvatar forged a sword and entrusted it to a human who would use it to destroy the WK." Seriously, how would that affect his story in any way, and thus be even worth mentioning? You say that he can go on and on for detail, but I think he has to cut back on some details.


Really? None at all. Don't tell that to Tolkein (or whoever is watching over his estate) as he would disagree. Do his magical swords shatter worlds? No. Are they magical? Yes. Power doesn't count for much sometimes. I could take the strongest guy in the world and ask him to write a novel. Unless he is a good writer as well, his strength is pretty meaningless. Is this really such a hard concept to understand? Strength and power can count for absolutely nothing in the right situations. Stronger beings are brought low by weaker beings with reasonable frequency (more so in fantasy). Again, in the real world, we are the dominant military power on Earth without a doubt. Yet, we are having trouble with people so far behind the military curve it's like a bad joke. Why? Power doesn't win every battle. Sometimes it isn't the way to break your enemy. Wow... You realize that you once again twisted my words. That lower magic setting for my example was made up, it is not LotRs. Don't know why you believed that was my meaning. Maybe you don't understand my points as well as you think.
But you realize that LotRs have no such swords like Frostmourne nor anything rivaling it. I can say that very well, and wouldn't have a taint on my honesty.


I am pretty sure I am not the only one in this thread who has disagreed with more than one of your statements, so the sweeping proclamation of the magic being weak on your say so doesn't really get you any points with me (not good ones anyway). Just as I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who disagrees with you. And it is not a proclaimation, its a fact. Warcraft has wizards on the streets, in the wild, on the mountains, and even now in the air! It has beings that destroyed worlds on a daily basis. World rending magics, soul stealing swords... need I say more?
LotRs doesn't have that much. No proclaimation, just a cold hard fact.


Unless we have a reason to not believe the absolute (it being provably false, for instance), or if it is something that is obviously tied to the world in question (the strongest being on Earth for instance), then how do we determine how much power is enough to break those absolutes? That is the central flaw in your argument. You're entire come back is, " I don't know how powerful it needs to be, but surely this is strong enough". That may work for you. It isn't founded on logic. It is founded on satsifying your apparently low requirements for "proof". Why do you expect everyone else to be satisfyed with an answer that isn't really an answer? When the question is how much does it take, "I don't know but that's enough" doesn't satisfy most people (and if it does without good reason I wouldn't use them to back up your claims). Thats just it in your first sentence. It is an absolute applying to all swords but the barrow blades, and when an absolute like that is defined with the word all, we can't just casually and/or idiotically presume that it means every single world. No, that world. It becomes more complicated when you apply it to other worlds, because you need to consider that there could be magical weapons capable of bypassing it that don't fit in the categories the world of origin cites. Maybe "Law defiance" perhaps, or chaos (And yes, it is an absolute to bypass divine defenses, which is a natural defense sure, but then again, the WK's defense is natural as well, is it not?)


You aren't using logic. It sounds good, but it isn't because you're omitting several facts, the least of which is that you can't absolutely state what would or would not happen or how powerful any of these things is in relation to one another. You can't form anything resembling a baseline for comparison or interaction. You have no idea what the supposed break point of the shield is and are left with nothing but assumption that another weapon meets or exceeds it. It isn't logic leading you to that conclusion (broken logic maybe). You don't have A>B. You have A=? and B=?. You are trying to say A>C or D or E while B<X, therefore A>B. That isn't how logic works. Applying logic to that (and that is what we have for all intents and purposes) gets you "does not compute". There is too little information (primarily from the Tolkein end) to form a reasonable conclusion. Obviously a conclusion can be formed as you are all too happy to do, but it isn't reasonable given the number of unknown quantities involved. That, coupled with your inability to grasp what absolutes are tells me that while you can claim to be using logic all you wan't, I'm not convinced you even understand the word. According to who? You? Your blindly sticking to the words of an author in some other authors world. You are insulting me (Yet again) because I don't agree with you, no matter how many times you fail to convince me. What you say is WK's shield is unbreakable, and you just would leave it there without further discussion. What I'm saying is it is more than likely a weapon with superior magic (Sargeras' sword for instance(Strongest weapon in the universe of Warcraft)) can break the shield, and you say that's impossible because the shield doesn't act on a magical power scale, though in its own world there are no such weapons as the ones we are putting forth, and Tolkien would not bother making a exception for weapons that wouldn't affect his own world in any way, nor could he make exceptions for foreign weapons he couldn't have known to be existent in another fantasy in the future. You say if there was an exception, he would have made it... he didn't (Or maybe more likely he couldn't), and so you presume that the shield is invinceable but to the Barrow blades. I see the lambs, where's the shepard they follow?


I don't know what to say here. You're statment leads me to believe that you get it, but you're other statements tell me that you don't. Yes, the answer is bypass the defenses. That's my whole damn point. Your point is that you think you just need to keep grabbing bigger and bigger hammers for any and all problems no matter what tool is actually required. When you think like a hammer all of your problems start to look like nails. Oh yeah, heres another easy but maybe more complicated way to bypass the defenses. Drop a wrecking ball from the air (Say... 200 feet) onto the ant hill. Maybe shoot it with guns, maybe a cannon. More ways to skin a cat than one, I always say. And brute force can sometimes be the answer.


I was content to let it die until you kept going. That and seeing what you can come up with (along with writing monsterous replies) solves the issue of boredom. It would've died saying "The Barrow blade isn't the only thing effective". I was just setting the record straight, and you and EE decided to jump on it. You started this again, not I. Just so we're clear on the record.


A perfect example of what I am talking about. Of course BG is wrong and Frostmourne can shatter that like glass because ANY magic weapon obviously never considered the awesomeness that is WoW. That's what I hear anyway. D&D magic... not LotRs magic... D&D tends to be stronger. This doesn't help your point any at all.
Question, is this Dark Alliance, or classic Baldurs gate? And does such a feat exist in normal D&D? Remember, they've been altering the D&D world to make it more balanced, so it could be that the Magic Weapon resistance was erased, or altered. Also, does it's power depend on the caster, does it hold off ALL damage or a fraction, and would it withstand a sword belonging to and being wielded by a god?
I don't consider the BG games absolute canon, as with Dark Alliance mana is added along with other things, and was the classic made by the Wizards of the Sword Coast?

One more thing...

If it were truly a direct duel of their magics like you want to believe that it is (don't know why) then I could see merit in your argument. If one of these swords could fire out some type of mystical attack, then your on to something. As it is, it isn't something that destroys magical protections so why does it's power even interact with the WK's shield? I don't deny that it is a very powerful weapon Guess what... I think that Sargeras' sword IS the magical attack.

EDIT: I can't help but notice... That a interesting question went unanswered again, even when I pointed it out.
Are the Ring Wraiths specifically ghosts?
WT did point out that they seem to have unghostly qualities, such as "Unseen sinews" or "Undead flesh" as he brought up for example. You accuse me of avoiding questions, yet you seem to take the habit as well.

[Mr. Scaly]

Stephen, it was classic Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn. It protected you from all damage by all magic weapons for four rounds (I think it was four), but not from magical attacks themselves. the only exceptions were the Holy Avenger swords which had a big chance of dispelling upon hitting.

Tyrant, I know you didn't mean it that way but...five bucks says that Jon Irenicus could put Arthas over his knee and give him such a spanking he'd never forget. :smallbiggrin:

EE, good to see you're back.


meh, alright, through i'm kinda vauge on Soth's magic, we do know he can hurt with his hands, and has killed at least one ghost that way (snaped his neck, through the other guy wasn't a fighter)

Soth commands fire and ice, a super powered fear aura (not applicable against the undead and all), numerous power words or symbols (most of which I don't think work against the undead), and depending on what character sheet you look at some kind of Dispelling effect.


That being said, as i pointed out before, The Wk's force can inflict so many casualties against Soth's forces that it doesn't even really matter. The nazgul don't even need to directly attack the dragons, just use their black breath and what not

Black Breath is fairly close ranged though, isn't it? And as tot he army size thing...in one of the Sword of Truth novels (the second I think) an army of 4500+ green recruits slaughter a force of 52,000+ veterans. Only about 900 of the good guys survive but all the enemy are killed. So using the right tactics (they perfected the skill of shooting a man while he's in the latrine) anything is possible. Granted they were taught by a Mary Sue...


1) Well i think Soth is a better swordsmen, however i don't know abotu his unarmed fighting
2) What spells does he have that can hurt him again?
3) He has magic resistance, but not to hte level that you've described

1) On the reverse side, how is WK's unarmed fighting? If Soth does do the 'freeze-destroy' his weapons they'd be on even footing again.
2) Fire and ice. Maybe shield dispelling (again, depending on which character sheet). Maybe others.
3) Well in the book he considers Raistlin the only one who could destroy him. Dalamar, Justarius, Par Salian, Ladonna, all very skilled archmages, all he is utterly unafraid of.