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stupnick
2008-05-28, 03:24 PM
OK, so i was lucky enough to get my books early.

i have been reading them cover to cover, got the PHB done today at work. and started the MM and the DMG. But i wanted to come here and answer any questions anyone might have.

I was one of the few that didn't think it would be great, and i would just stick with 3.5, but so far i am REALLY liking the changes to 4E...

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-28, 03:26 PM
What are the dragonborn racial feats?

Is it possible to have an evil cleric that does evil things and uses evil power (necrotic damage instead of radiant, for instance)? Does it matter, mechanically, what god your cleric worships? Anything like domains in 3.5?

Raider
2008-05-28, 03:31 PM
How easy would you say it is for a 3.5er to explain the new system to a pack of DnD newbies? Are all the rules simple for new players to understand basically.

Morty
2008-05-28, 03:32 PM
Thre's already a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81547&page=6) where those lucky enough to have their 4ed books answer the questions of those who aren't. I don't want to be a vigilante mod here of course, but maybe it's better to stick to an existing thread.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 03:41 PM
What are the dragonborn racial feats?

Is it possible to have an evil cleric that does evil things and uses evil power (necrotic damage instead of radiant, for instance)? Does it matter, mechanically, what god your cleric worships? Anything like domains in 3.5?

Dragonborn Frenzy +2 damage when bloodied
Dragonborn Senses Low-light vision, +1 to Perception
Enlarged Dragon Breath Dragon breath becomes blast 5

the blast 5 is a 25x25 section adjacent to you that it covers
bloodied means 1/2 hp

as far as that. you would gain feats based on your diety that you could take. as far as the evil, in the PHB they really stay away from that. they don't even go into to much detail about the evil dieties. they only give a 1-2 quick sentence about them, unlike the good/unaligned.


How easy would you say it is for a 3.5er to explain the new system to a pack of DnD newbies? Are all the rules simple for new players to understand basically.

Very easy.. infact them reading the book will get it. while reading, they really take the point as if you never played a roleplaying game before and talk everything out. it does take a little bit to understand there line of thinking. like fighter powers deal damage of 1[W], which means 1*weapon damage, and some do 3[W]. once you figure out the system it's simple

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-28, 03:41 PM
What are the dragonborn racial feats?

Is it possible to have an evil cleric that does evil things and uses evil power (necrotic damage instead of radiant, for instance)? Does it matter, mechanically, what god your cleric worships? Anything like domains in 3.5?

Dragonborn can take a feat that gives them +2 damage when bloodied, and another that makes their breath be Blast 5 not Blast 3. There's a paragon feat which ups the dice on your breath weapon.



How easy would you say it is for a 3.5er to explain the new system to a pack of DnD newbies? Are all the rules simple for new players to understand basically.
It's simpler than 3E. It lacks the really messy stuff (like the ridiculous mess that is Grappling in 3E), and it's much more modular--there's a limited number of things the player of a given character has to know. Given that the DM handles things like XP, treasure, etc, there's not that much new players *need* to know.

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-28, 03:43 PM
So the dragonborn's breath weapon effects an area that's a perfect cube and not a line or cone? Weird.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 03:44 PM
Blast: A blast fills an area adjacent to you that is a
specified number of squares on a side. For example,
the wizard power thunderwave is a blast 3, which
means the power affects a 3-square-by-3-square area
adjacent to you. The blast must be adjacent to its origin
square, which is a square in your space. The origin
square is not affected by the blast. A blast affects a
target only if the target is in the blast’s area and if there
is line of effect from the origin square to the target.

there is the given definition from the book

yup.. kinda wierd.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 03:49 PM
the problem with the other thread is you have to register at another website to get questions answered. the thread here has evolved into a speculation discussion. nothing that people can ask and answer questions in.

RTGoodman
2008-05-28, 03:51 PM
So the dragonborn's breath weapon effects an area that's a perfect cube and not a line or cone? Weird.

I guess it makes more sense if you think of the Dragonborn (or whatever) is moving his head about while spewing fire/electricity/etc. Unlike in 3.5, you can't just stand one square in front and one square to the side of the origin and be missed.

Here's a question, since mods will probably merge this with the other thread anyway - as a Dragonborn, do you get to determine what sort of energy damage your breath weapon does? Or do they all have Fire? Or can you change it up or something?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 03:51 PM
Burst works like this

Burst 1:

XXX
XTX
XXX

Burst 2:

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXTXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

Burst 3:

XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXTXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX

... Or am I way off?

I'm way off... That's Burst with the Target at the center

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-28, 03:51 PM
I guess it makes sense if you picture the dragonborn breating and turning his head to hit everybody in the blast area. Still, that would be a semi-circle. House ruling may or may not be in order.


EDIT: Mega Ninja'd


So blast works out like this....

Blast 1:

XXX
XDX
XXX

Blast 2:

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXDXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

Blast 3:

XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXDXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX

... Or am I way off?

No, Sam, that's a burst, specifically a close burst which centers on the source. A blast would be like this:


Blast 3:
..X X X
DX X X
..X X X

stupnick
2008-05-28, 03:54 PM
I guess it makes more sense if you think of the Dragonborn (or whatever) is moving his head about while spewing fire/electricity/etc. Unlike in 3.5, you can't just stand one square in front and one square to the side of the origin and be missed.

Here's a question, since mods will probably merge this with the other thread anyway - as a Dragonborn, do you get to determine what sort of energy your breath weapon does? Or do they all have Fire? Or can you change it up or something?

Dragon Breath Dragonborn Racial Power
As you open your mouth with a roar, the deadly power of your
draconic kin blasts forth to engulf your foes.
Encounter ✦ Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Poison
Minor Action Close blast 3
Targets: All creatures in area
Attack: Strength + 2 vs. Reflex, Constitution + 2 vs. Reflex, or
Dexterity + 2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Constitution modifier damage.
Increase to +4 bonus and 2d6 + Constitution modifier
damage at 11th level, and to +6 bonus and 3d6 +
Constitution modifier damage at 21st level.
Special: When you create your character, choose Strength,
Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use
when making attack rolls with this power. You also choose
the power’s damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or
poison. These two choices remain throughout your character’s
life and do not change the power’s other effects.




And sam it's like this

Blast 3
XXX
XXX
XXX
_D_

Blast 5
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
__D__

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 03:54 PM
Blast 3
. XXX
DXXX
. XXX

Blast 5
. XXXXX
. XXXXX
DXXXXX
. XXXXX
. XXXXX

KillianHawkeye
2008-05-28, 04:08 PM
Blast: A blast fills an area adjacent to you that is a specified number of squares on a side. For example, the wizard power thunderwave is a blast 3, which means the power affects a 3-square-by-3-square area adjacent to you. The blast must be adjacent to its origin
square, which is a square in your space. The origin square is not affected by the blast. A blast affects a target only if the target is in the blast’s area and if there is line of effect from the origin square to the target.

there is the given definition from the book

yup.. kinda wierd.

Based on this, I think you can occupy any square adjacent to the blast effect. So...

Blast 3:

DXXX
_XXX
_XXX

or

_XXX
DXXX
_XXX

or

_XXX
_XXX
DXXX

And depending on the definition of "adjacent", you could put it completely diagonal to you as well:

D
_XXX
_XXX
_XXX

Xefas
2008-05-28, 04:15 PM
Can we get the rules for multiclassing via Paragon Path? Such as, what do you get at each level? Class Features? At-Will Powers?

stupnick
2008-05-28, 04:21 PM
Correct KillianHawkeye

stupnick
2008-05-28, 04:25 PM
Can we get the rules for multiclassing via Paragon Path? Such as, what do you get at each level? Class Features? At-Will Powers?

Multiclassing is handled extremely different

once you become a fighter, you are fighter till level 10. then instead of taking a fighter paragon path, you can instead choose to take another classes abilties. Now in order to do so, it takes 3 feats.

wall of text

Power-Swap Feats
The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power
feats give you access to a power from the class for
which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That
power replaces a power you would normally have
from your primary class. When you take one of these
power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice
from your primary class and replace it with a power of
the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed
in.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that
decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the
power-swap feat for the first time at the new level
you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you
gave up originally from your primary class, lose the
power that you chose from your second class, and
make the trade again. You give up a different power
from your primary class and replace it with a new
power of the same level from your second class.
You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers
you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny.
If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat
with another feat, you lose any power gained from the
power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level
from your primary class.

Novice Power
[Multiclass Encounter]
Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat,
4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power
you know for one encounter attack power of the same
level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.

Acolyte Power
[Multiclass Utility]
Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat,
8th level
Benefit: You can swap one utility power you know
for one utility power of the same level or lower from
the class you multiclassed into.

Adept Power [Multiclass Daily]
Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat,
10th level
Benefit: You can swap one daily attack power you
know for one daily attack power of the same level or
lower from the class you multiclassed into.

Paragon Multiclassing
If you have the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and
Adept Power feats for a class, you can choose to continue
to gain powers from that class rather than
take a paragon path. If you choose this option, you gain
several benefits.
At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your
at-will powers with an at-will power from your second
class.
In place of the paragon path encounter power
gained at 11th level, you can select any encounter
power of 7th level or lower from your second class.
In place of the paragon path utility power gained
at 12th level, you can select any utility power of 10th
level or lower from your second class.
In place of the paragon path daily power gained at
20th level, you can select any daily power of 19th level
or lower from your second class.

kamikasei
2008-05-28, 04:32 PM
Ah - so you don't have a choice of dabbling (via the multi-class and zero or more power-swap feats) or dual-classing, but of just dabbling or going full-out dual-classed as well. Interesting...

Xefas
2008-05-28, 04:41 PM
Multiclassing is handled extremely different

Awesome, thanks!

That's the only thing that's really been killing me to know.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 04:41 PM
As i said, they made it so you couldn't dip here and there.

there are other ways to gain class benifits, and those are the multiclass feats
Initiate of the Faith Wis 13 Cleric: Religion skill, healing word 1/day
Student of the Sword Str 13 Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter
Soldier of the Faith Str 13, Cha 13 Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter
Warrior of the Wild Str 13 or Dex 13 Ranger: skill training, designate prey 1/encounter
Sneak of Shadows Dex 13 Rogue: Thievery skill, Sneak Attack 1/encounter
Pact Initiate Cha 13 Warlock: skill training, eldritch blast 1/encounter
Student of Battle Str 13 Warlord: skill training, inspiring word 1/day
Arcane Initiate Int 13 Wizard: Arcana skill, wizard power 1/encounter

Class-Specific Feats
There are two restrictions on your choice of a
class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a
multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you
take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific
feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second
class but not a third.
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths. For example, a character who
takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose
of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite.
These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example,
a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the
rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that
he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.

Tingel
2008-05-28, 04:49 PM
Is it possible to have an evil cleric that does evil things and uses evil power (necrotic damage instead of radiant, for instance)? Does it matter, mechanically, what god your cleric worships? Anything like domains in 3.5?
The Dungeon Master's Guide has a small paragraph called "Divine Evil". It says that the cleric and paladin powers described in the PHB are designed with good and lawful good deities in mind. For evil clerics and paladins, the fluff should be changed without changing mechanics. The examples given are to exchange radiant damage (= holy light) with necrotic damage, ongoing holy fire with acidic slime, and being blinded by light with being blinded by clinging darkness.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 04:53 PM
TY tingel. i am still reading the DMG...

Raider
2008-05-28, 04:55 PM
Are there subraces listed in the MM for each race?

stupnick
2008-05-28, 04:59 PM
no duergar, no svirfneblin, drow are listed as there own entry.

so nope... nothing like whisper gnomes, ghostwise halflings, strongheart halflings and the like

Scintillatus
2008-05-28, 05:19 PM
Just use the standard race and re-flavour it. Throw together a racial feature if you gotta. These races are NOT difficult to design, there's no LA to worry about any more.

wodan46
2008-05-28, 07:01 PM
At-Will Power progression hasn't really been discussed like Encounter/Daily/Utility powers have.

How many At-Will powers are available to a given class at Level 1, at what levels do new sets of At Will powers become available, and how many At-Will powers are generally available total, per class?

Wizards reportedly have Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst, Magic Missile, and 2 other Level 1 At-Wills. What are those other At-Will powers? I'm betting that 1 of them is Shocking Grasp, and the other is Acid based with ongoing damage.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 07:04 PM
At-Will Power progression hasn't really been discussed like Encounter/Daily/Utility powers have.

How many At-Will powers are available to a given class at Level 1, at what levels do new sets of At Will powers become available, and how many At-Will powers are generally available total, per class?

Wizards reportedly have Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst, Magic Missile, and 2 other Level 1 At-Wills. What are those other At-Will powers? I'm betting that 1 of them is Shocking Grasp, and the other is Acid based with ongoing damage.

Rachel posted the wizard at-wills in the other thread.

A class gets 2 at-will powers (+1 if human), out of a set of 4 (5 for the wizard). You don't get new at-will powers (although you can change the ones you have), unless you get another class' by replacing your Paragon Path with multiclassing.

Scubasteve0209
2008-05-28, 07:05 PM
What are the stat modifications for the PC races?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:10 PM
Dragonborn: +2 Str, +2 Cha
Dwarf: +2 Con, +2 Wis
Eladrin: +2 Dex, +2 Int
Elf: +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Half-Elf: +2 Con, +2 Cha
Halfling: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Human: +2 to any one attribute
Tiefling: +2 Int, +2 Cha

stupnick
2008-05-28, 07:11 PM
Dragonborn Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma
Dwarves Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
Eladrin Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
Elves Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Half Elves Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma
Halflings Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
Humans Ability Scores: +2 to one ability score of your choice
Tieflings Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma

Raider
2008-05-28, 07:13 PM
Is the amount of weapons and armor sets very different from the amount featured in the last PH?

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 07:22 PM
That half-elf bonus doesn't make any sense. If you're half-any-attribute, and half-dex-and-wis, why are you con-and-cha?

Gorbash
2008-05-28, 07:30 PM
Any explanation why Half-Elves would get +2 con? :smallsigh:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:32 PM
The best reasoning that's been said so far is from the description of the Half-Elf


Ultimately, half-elves are survivors, able to adapt to
almost any situation. They are generally well liked and
admired by everyone, not just elves and humans.

The survivor aspect gives the con... the well-liked gives cha.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 07:32 PM
Any explanation why Half-Elves would get +2 con? :smallsigh:

Hybrid vigor.

Lazaro
2008-05-28, 07:32 PM
There are 2 Types of Armor. Light(Cloth, Leather and Hide), and Heavy(Chainmail, Scale Armor, Plate Armor). Each of these groups has three sets of armor to choose from.

There are only two types of shields Light and Heavy.

As for weapons:
Simple Weapons
(one-handed):club, dagger, javelin, mace, sickle, spear
(two-handed):greatclub, morningstar, quarterstaff, scythe

Military Weapons:
(one-handed):battleaxe, flail, handaxe, longsword, scimitar, short sword, throwing hammer, warhammer, war pick

(two-handed):falchion, glaive, greataxe, greatsword, halberd, heavy flail, longspear, maul

Superior Weapons
(one-handed):bastard sword, katar, rapier
(two-weapon):spiked chain

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:40 PM
Whoever said that Evil Deities aren't in the PHB lied. They are listed... its just that the commandments and various in depth info on them is in the DMG... but each gets a paragraph description in the PHB.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-28, 07:44 PM
Dragonborn: +2 Str, +2 Cha
Dwarf: +2 Con, +2 Wis
Eladrin: +2 Dex, +2 Int
Elf: +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Half-Elf: +2 Con, +2 Cha
Halfling: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Human: +2 to any one attribute
Tiefling: +2 Int, +2 Cha

For humans, isn't it +2 to any TWO attributes?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 07:46 PM
Nope, just one attribute.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 07:46 PM
Oh, a draft-PH I got off of a tester friend of mine a few months back showed paladins as being able to be of any alignment, and there wasn't anything about a code, falling, ex-paladins, etc. Has this been changed?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 07:49 PM
Oh, a draft-PH I got off of a tester friend of mine a few months back showed paladins as being able to be of any alignment, and there wasn't anything about a code, falling, ex-paladins, etc. Has this been changed?

No, it hasn't. Once a Paladin is imbued with powers (the fluff is a sort of ritual), they can't be revoked, even if they go evil and/or crazy.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 07:50 PM
No, it hasn't. Once a Paladin is imbued with powers (the fluff is a sort of ritual), they can't be revoked, even if they go evil and/or crazy.

Are they allowed to be Unaligned, Good, LE, E?

Lazaro
2008-05-28, 07:52 PM
Are they allowed to be Unaligned, Good, LE, E?

A paladins alignment must be the same as his deity

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 08:06 PM
A paladins alignment must be the same as his deity

Note that this is to become a paladin in the first place. After the powers have been granted, that's it.

"Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful."

Don Beegles
2008-05-28, 08:06 PM
Wait, no minuses for races? That's new. Does anyone know what the reasoning behind that is, because I thought the old system was really good, on the whole.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 08:06 PM
Ok... if a power says 1[W]+Strength damage...

Does the [W] itself mean your basic attack. For instance, I have a longsword with a 14 strength. 1d8+2 base attack damage. Would said power deal 1d8+4 damage?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-28, 08:07 PM
Ok... if a power says 1[W]+Strength damage...

Does the [W] itself mean your basic attack. For instance, I have a longsword with a 14 strength. 1d8+2 base attack damage. Would said power deal 1d8+4 damage?

No. [W] is your weapon's basic die.

A maul does 2d6. A +2 maul wielded by someone with 18 STR would, used in a power doing 1[W] + STR, do 2d6+8.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 08:19 PM
reel can you list the source in the phb that states you deal str+1/2 on 2 hand weapons. i have read it, and all it says is you deal +str...

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 08:33 PM
reel can you list the source in the phb that states you deal str+1/2 on 2 hand weapons. i have read it, and all it says is you deal +str...

Seconded. I searched all over the damn thing for a word on this.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-28, 08:45 PM
reel can you list the source in the phb that states you deal str+1/2 on 2 hand weapons. i have read it, and all it says is you deal +str...

I think he meant 2d6+4 Str +2 bonus.

stupnick
2008-05-28, 09:02 PM
but he listed it as +8 which means he counted +6 str and +2 weapon.. so i was wondering how he got the +6 str.. or where that other +2 came from

Theodoxus
2008-05-28, 09:04 PM
Only versitile weapons receive any bonus damage, unless you're using a feat, like Power Attack (which grants a +3 damage bonus rather than +2 when using a two hander.)

Note, versitile weapons are things like bastard swords that can be used either one or two handed. when used two handed (except by small races - ie halflings in the core races) they do an extra 1 point.

I think the assumption is that the two handed weapon base damage takes into consideration their bulk and thus additional strength damage was not included... yet another example how 4E <> 3.5, by a long shot.

As an aside, I really like how a lot of powers and feats allow players choice for attribute designation. Like the dragonborn breath weapon described earlier.

Also, the rangers At-Will ability Twin Strike is pretty potent, as it allows, at 1st level, the ability to use either two weapons or a ranged weapon to make two attacks. The damage isn't that great, provided their smaller weapon types, but given there are no more iterative attacks, the ranger will be quite potent... I could see quite a few multiclass ranger/rogue or rangers taking the sneak feat.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:07 PM
What do you mean smaller weapon types? Two Weapon Fighting Style for ranger lets you treat a one handed weapon as an off hand weapon.

Which means you can wield a Battleaxe in each hand (1d10 damage) ... That's what I just built, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2008-05-28, 09:09 PM
but he listed it as +8 which means he counted +6 str and +2 weapon.. so i was wondering how he got the +6 str.. or where that other +2 came from

The text of the Power Attack feat (in.. one of these other threads somewhere here) gives a 1.5x bonus for two-handers. I don't know if that's a general rule that is being repeated there or if it's a special benefit of the feat.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:11 PM
This is quite an interesting quote...


Malign Gods
The good, lawful good, and unaligned gods are
described in the Player’s Handbook. The evil and chaotic
evil gods aren’t detailed there, because the game
assumes that player characters view these gods and
their servants as enemies. The villains in your campaign,
though, can be servants of these malign gods.

Theodoxus
2008-05-28, 09:15 PM
damn it, you got me - I was trying to get people from playing berserker type rangers ;)

Here's an interesting bit... three powers, same level, different classes, and fairly close in crunch...

Ranger:
Two-Weapon Eviscerate Ranger Attack 17
You swing your blades in lethal arcs, dousing the battlefield in
your enemy’s blood.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon),
two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack. If both
attacks hit, the target takes an extra 1d10 damage and is
weakened until the end of your next turn.

Fighter:
Mountain Breaking Blow Fighter Attack 17
You land a ringing blow, then push your enemy back without
giving other nearby enemies the opportunity to strike you.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 3 squares.
Effect: After the attack, you can shift the same distance you
pushed the target. You must end your move adjacent to
the target

Wizard:
Ice Tomb Wizard Attack 17
You target an enemy with a freezing ray that briefly traps him in
an icy sarcophagus.
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d10 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and the
target is entombed in ice. While entombed, the target is
stunned, and attacks cannot gain line of effect against it.
This effect lasts until the end of your next turn.

Wizard has the advantage, if only for range, but still... he's definitely not outshining the bruisers.

Aquillion
2008-05-28, 09:17 PM
This is quite an interesting quote...
In case you missed it, 4th edition strongly discourages players from taking an evil alignment (it says outright that if you pick an alignment, you are supposed to pick good or lawful good). There's a brief note that all-evil parties are possible, but it seems as if the books are heavily written towards good parties.

Honestly, in a way it's a good idea. The mechanics for playing an evil party if you want are still there for those of us who know about them, but if you're reading the book for the first time and playing your first campaign, it's probably a bad idea to mix good and evil people in the same party.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:19 PM
damn it, you got me - I was trying to get people from playing berserker type rangers ;)


No way man...I just built a Dragonborn Ranger, dual Battle Axes... Dragonborn Frenzy as the feat... :)

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 09:20 PM
In case you missed it, 4th edition strongly discourages players from taking an evil alignment (it says outright that if you pick an alignment, you are supposed to pick good or lawful good). There's a brief note that all-evil parties are possible, but it seems as if the books are heavily written towards good parties.

Honestly, in a way it's a good idea. The mechanics for playing an evil party if you want are still there for those of us who know about them, but if you're reading the book for the first time and playing your first campaign, it's probably a bad idea to mix good and evil people in the same party.

I think they know that anyone experienced enough to handle the issues of an evil character/party will be able to swap things around to make it work.

McMindflayer
2008-05-28, 09:20 PM
Huh, I thought Half-elf was going to get +2 cha and +2 to any one stat( as long as it's not cha.)
But Guess I was wrong.

My question
IF Humans only get a +2 to any one stat, what else do they get that is over what another race would get? Is the ability to Choose really that much better than having 2 +2 to stats?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:22 PM
They get an extra At-Will power, Extra Trained Skill, +1 to reflex, fortitude and Will defenses.

The extra At-Will power is nice... you'll only ever have 2.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 09:22 PM
They get an extra At-Will power, Extra Trained Skill, +1 to reflex, fortitude and Will defenses.

The extra At-Will power is nice... you'll only ever have 2.

Unless ye be a wizard, iirc.

tyckspoon
2008-05-28, 09:24 PM
They get an extra At-Will power, Extra Trained Skill, +1 to reflex, fortitude and Will defenses.

The extra At-Will power is nice... you'll only ever have 2.

And neat action-hero racial feats that improve the effect of spending an action point or give you more things to do with said points. Since you're expected to be spending a point every other encounter or so, a human could get a lot of use from those.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:24 PM
Well, they get the Cantrips at will as well.. but no, they only get 2 basic at-will powers as well.

Edea
2008-05-28, 09:31 PM
The wizard's Spellbook is very nice, allowing you more variety in your daily and utility power selection (it doesn't seem like most classes ever swap these around without retraining, which should be used on feats). Also, seems the wizard (at least for the moment) is the one who's going to be taking care of ritual casting.

Orb, staff, or wand? I like the staff the most. The orb is enticing. The wand IMO sucks.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-28, 09:34 PM
Encounter and Daily powers do get "automatic swaps" at certain levels...

Encounter is at 13, 17, 23 and 27
Daily is at 15, 19, 25 and 29.

Utility and at-will have to be swapped using the retraining rules.

Edea
2008-05-28, 09:44 PM
I did realize that, sorry :s. I meant swap them after an extended rest (that's the kind I don't see most of the classes besides the wizard doing).

wodan46
2008-05-28, 09:47 PM
How many levels do you get the option of new At Will abilities? Is it just 1 set for Heroic, 1 for Paragon, and 1 for Epic?

Also, for typical base damage for an attack power, is this accurate?
---------------Heroic--Paragon--Epic
At-Will--------1[W]---2[W]------3[W]
Encounter-----2[W]---3[W]------4[W]
Daily----------3[W]---5[W]------7[W]

Edea
2008-05-28, 09:52 PM
Every level, you can -retrain- an old at-will ability out for a new one (at the cost of being able to retrain anything else). But choosing new ones (as in, -on top of- what else you already know) only seems to happen at 1st level per page 27 of the PHB. I'm not sure if there are any Paragon or Epic at-will abilities (I don't think there are).

ImperiousLeader
2008-05-28, 09:57 PM
A PC only ever gets 2 at-wills, 3 if human. At wills only upgrade at level 21.

wodan46
2008-05-28, 10:03 PM
So then its like this?:
---------------Heroic--Paragon--Epic
At-Will--------1[W]---1[W]------2[W]
Encounter-----2[W]---3[W]------4[W]
Daily----------3[W]---5[W]------7[W]

Makes more sense anyway.

So the Level 1 At-Wills are the ONLY Class At-Wills, and get +1[W] at Level 21?

Aquillion
2008-05-28, 10:03 PM
Also, seems the wizard (at least for the moment) is the one who's going to be taking care of ritual casting.Wizard, Cleric, or Paladin. All you really need is a feat and the correct skill, which is usually Arcana or Religion (although there's also a few Heal and Nature rituals, which even a fighter or ranger could learn with little trouble if they took Ritual Casting for whatever reason.)

And it looks like it wouldn't be too hard for another class to pick up the ability if they want to spend a few feats. In particular, if you have no wizard, it would be very easy for the cleric to grab the Arcana skill and the necessary feat, and be able to use arcane rituals fairly well (though obviously their int bonus will be lower)

In general, it looks like they tried to make rituals easy for any party to get... they represent the 'essentials' that were previously confined to full casters. Now, just about anybody can pick them up, so you no longer need, say, a Wizard or a Cleric quite as much... anyone who has the relevent skill on the list for their class and the ritual caster feat can choose to be trained in Arcana, Religion, Healing, or whatever, then start grabbing rituals.

Edea
2008-05-28, 10:07 PM
Oh, yes, being ABLE to cast the rituals is a snap. I meant the fact that wizards automatically pick a fairly large number of them up by levelling, without having to purchase them, and get three right from the off (clerics do get 2 right from the off, but then they are dependent on the purchase mechanism for new ones, or so it seems at least).

Hee hee, wizards and fighters using Raise Dead :x.

Theodoxus
2008-05-28, 10:52 PM
Raise dead's nice too - other than the 8 hour casting time... but no level loss, no con loss - yes please.

As for getting more at will powers... you can, if you multiclass. But then you run into the problem with 3.5 Gestault - a lot of power options, and limited actions to be able to use them. I could imagine someone going Wizard/Warlock or Warlock/Ranger for a lot of ranged attack powers, but really, the at wills are nice as is. Picking two will be hard for me - I might once again be making all humans :)

Edea
2008-05-28, 11:04 PM
That seems to be one of the powergame questions of the moment as far as mid-level play is going to be concerned: Paragon Path, or Paragon Multiclass? That latter option does freeze a significant number of your feat slots (4), and some of the Paragon Paths are, frankly, freakin' powerful in the context of the new mechanics.

Guess it depends how strong other feats are going to be. Actually, I'm not sure if the feat slots are frozen or not (can you drop them after you've PMed enough? Doesn't seem to specifically call out "These feats are considered prerequisites for PM and cannot be dropped," so I'm assuming it's implied).

Quellian-dyrae
2008-05-28, 11:51 PM
Out of curiosity, what happened to Disintegrate? It's my friend's favorite spell and we (meaning: I) like to joke about how it gets weaker in every edition.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-28, 11:56 PM
Out of curiosity, what happened to Disintegrate? It's my friend's favorite spell and we (meaning: I) like to joke about how it gets weaker in every edition.

Disintegrate Wizard Attack 19
You fire a green ray from your wand. Whatever the emerald
beam hits disappears in a puff of gray dust.
Daily * Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature or object
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Special: You don’t need to make an attack roll to hit an
unattended object with this power.
Hit: 5d10 + Intelligence modifier damage, and ongoing 10
damage (save ends). If the target saves, it takes ongoing 5
damage (save ends).
Miss: 3d10 + Intelligence modifier

Quellian-dyrae
2008-05-28, 11:59 PM
Thanks for the info!

Edea
2008-05-29, 12:01 AM
Bets on homebrewing finger of death to be a daily attack with initial necrotic damage on a hit, and a "first save failed, things get worse, second save failed, target dies" mechanic?

Kristoss
2008-05-29, 01:30 AM
How does item creation work?

Can a Bruiser such as a fighter or ranger craft thier own magic items?

Xefas
2008-05-29, 01:35 AM
How does item creation work?

Can a Bruiser such as a fighter or ranger craft thier own magic items?

I don't have the books, but so far as I know, yes.

If a Fighter takes the feat that allows them to cast rituals, they can use a ritual to break down old magic items into a powder called "residuum" and then use the residuum in another ritual to create magic items.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

tyckspoon
2008-05-29, 01:40 AM
Based just on the Ritual preview excerpt: Creating items is done via a Ritual called, naturally enough, Enchant Magic Item. Anybody with the appropriate skills and feats can perform a Ritual. The key skill for Enchant Magic Item is likely to be Arcana, although other skills may work for other kinds of characters and/or magic items (Clerics may use Religion, for example, or specific items [Holy Avengers?] may call out using Religion as a requisite.)

Fighting-type characters can perform the creation ritual; it'll just take them a few more resources to access it, since they will probably need to take a multiclassing feat to get training in the appropriate skill first. Then they can take the Ritual casting feat. At this point they can use any Ritual a Wizard could (assuming they got Arcana as their trained skill), although possibly not quite as well as the Wizard thanks to having a lower skill check.

Tengu
2008-05-29, 02:26 AM
Is there a way of using an encounter power more than once per encounter, for example by taking it twice (instead of taking two various powers)?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-29, 02:27 AM
Is there a way of using an encounter power more than once per encounter, for example by taking it twice (instead of taking two various powers)?

There's a variety of high-level abilities that let you recover used powers. For example, an epic feat lets you spend an action point to recover a used encounter power.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-29, 03:41 AM
There's a variety of high-level abilities that let you recover used powers. For example, an epic feat lets you spend an action point to recover a used encounter power.

Yes, that is the way to go.

You cannot take the same power twice just like your ToB martial adepts could take the same maneuver more than once.

Charity
2008-05-29, 04:01 AM
Any explanation why Half-Elves would get +2 con? :smallsigh:


Hybrid vigor.

Hybrid vigour is indeed very valid but I rather like the idea that it reflects their boldness, HP are not just about toughness they are also about bottle.

Aquillion
2008-05-29, 04:29 AM
Disintegrate Wizard Attack 19
You fire a green ray from your wand. Whatever the emerald
beam hits disappears in a puff of gray dust.
Daily * Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature or object
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Special: You don’t need to make an attack roll to hit an
unattended object with this power.
Hit: 5d10 + Intelligence modifier damage, and ongoing 10
damage (save ends). If the target saves, it takes ongoing 5
damage (save ends).
Miss: 3d10 + Intelligence modifierThat's sort of... disappointing. It's just a generic damage spell; it doesn't even take out chunks of terrain anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why they did it, but it's sort of a shame that the only way they could rebalance magic was to turn most of their spells into refluffed archery (and unlike what people used to mean when they said that, spells like that really are basically refluffed archery, especially since archers use the same system... now wizards are ultimately intended to be 'archers' who are good at hitting areas and causing debuffs.)

It's sort of a shame. They've certainly balanced everything, but I can't help but feel that they've done it at the cost of taking out much of the uniqueness between different options...

Well, this is just the core books. Probably once we start getting splatbooks and so on we'll see enough new unique and interesting abilities to seperate things out. At least the swap feats will hopefully keep the balance from collapsing too far, since if there's just one or two badly broken abilities, everyone will be able to swap for it...

It feels like there aren't as many complicated effects, too; very few abilities have more than one or two sentences of text, and almost none get more than a brief paragraph. (Rituals are the exception, but those are limited in various ways.) There's certainly a good side to this, and it makes the game much easier for new players to play... nobody has to spend time reading each other's abilities in combat, which is probably the main reason for it.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-29, 04:31 AM
Can objects even make saving throws? If not, Disintegrate removes objects just fine. Does damage to them and then doesn't stop doing damage to them.

Charity
2008-05-29, 04:42 AM
Can objects even make saving throws? If not, Disintegrate removes objects just fine. Does damage to them and then doesn't stop doing damage to them.

Hmmm hey DM, does a castle count as an object... no reason just asking...

Reel On, Love
2008-05-29, 04:44 AM
Hmmm hey DM, does a castle count as an object... no reason just asking...

Presumably, each square counts as an object.

Aquillion
2008-05-29, 04:52 AM
Can objects even make saving throws? If not, Disintegrate removes objects just fine. Does damage to them and then doesn't stop doing damage to them.Hmm. I step outside and cast disintegrate straight downwards, then.

clericwithnogod
2008-05-29, 04:57 AM
Well, this is just the core books. Probably once we start getting splatbooks and so on we'll see enough new unique and interesting abilities to seperate things out. At least the swap feats will hopefully keep the balance from collapsing too far, since if there's just one or two badly broken abilities, everyone will be able to swap for it...

It feels like there aren't as many complicated effects, too; very few abilities have more than one or two sentences of text, and almost none get more than a brief paragraph. (Rituals are the exception, but those are limited in various ways.) There's certainly a good side to this, and it makes the game much easier for new players to play... nobody has to spend time reading each other's abilities in combat, which is probably the main reason for it.

Maybe we'll get an AD&D4e book at some point...

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 07:36 AM
Beholders are scary. :smalleek:

2 eye rays per round... but they also have an Eye Frenzy ability that recharges on a 6... 4 eye rays with Eye Frenzy.

And the rays -hurt-... disintegrate eye ray has an ongoing 2d20 damage... if you save, you have ongoing 2d6 damage...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-29, 07:44 AM
Beholders are scary. :smalleek:

2 eye rays per round... but they also have an Eye Frenzy ability that recharges on a 6... 4 eye rays with Eye Frenzy.

And the rays -hurt-... disintegrate eye ray has an ongoing 2d20 damage... if you save, you have ongoing 2d6 damage...

Well I hope you had not expected Beholders to have flimsy powers like the Wizard? :smalltongue:

Petrifying Ray and Death Ray seems ok, since the save or suck effects have been scaled back.

Charity
2008-05-29, 08:12 AM
You seem to have beefed up a bit HP's wise as well, have you been working out?

@V I did have my suspicians...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-29, 08:18 AM
You seem to have beefed up a bit HP's wise as well, have you been working out?

You want to know the secret?

POPCORN!!

Aquillion
2008-05-29, 04:04 PM
Also, I don't know if this has been talked to death or what... but you get feats at every even-numbered level, now (plus at levels 1, 11, and 21). That's important to note when evaluating the new multi-classing rules.

brant167
2008-05-29, 05:57 PM
Someone asked about Races, there are a few in the monster manual.
Bugbear= +2 str +2 dex
Doppelganger= +2int +2 cha
Drow= +2 dex +2 cha
Githyanki= +2 con +2 int
Githzerai= +2 dex +2 wis
Gnoll= +2 con +3 dex
Gnome= +2 int +2 cha
Goblin= +2 dex +2 cha
Hoboblin= +2 con +2 cha
Kobold= +2 con +2 dex
Minotaur= +2 str +2 con
Orc= +2 str +2 con
Shadar-kai= +2 dex +2 int
Shifter, Long tooth= +2 str +2 wis
Shifter, Razorclaw= +2 dex +2 wis
Warforged= +2 str +2 con

All these races are playable which greatly expands the options when creating a level onr character.

Xsjado
2008-05-29, 06:19 PM
Warforged are looking pretty tasty as fighters.

Nevermore
2008-05-29, 07:50 PM
No 1/2 orcs? that blows

Reel On, Love
2008-05-29, 08:00 PM
No 1/2 orcs? that blows

Use Orc stats. What stats could they give half-orcs that are different from the +2s Orcs have but still fit, anyway?

Lazaro
2008-05-29, 08:07 PM
Half-Orcs are supposed to get their own write up for DDI.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 08:10 PM
Am I reading this wrong... when you do Paragon Multiclassing... you don't gain any of the class features of the class? You just get one at-will power to replace one of yours, an encounter power at level 11 that must be level 7 or lower, A utility power at level 12 that's 10th level or lower and a daily power at level 20 that's 19th level or lower.

No class features = waaaaaay lower powered than ANY paragon path that grants 3-4 "always on" features.

Why would you multiclass into rogue if you couldnt sneak attack... save for the once per encounter you get from the initiate feat?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-29, 08:14 PM
Am I reading this wrong... when you do Paragon Multiclassing... you don't gain any of the class features of the class? You just get one at-will power to replace one of yours, an encounter power at level 11 that must be level 7 or lower, A utility power at level 12 that's 10th level or lower and a daily power at level 20 that's 19th level or lower.
You gain a new at-will, and encounter/utility/daily powers at the same level the paragon path would give you such powers.


No class features = waaaaaay lower powered than ANY paragon path that grants 3-4 "always on" features.
NOT necessarily, no.


Why would you multiclass into rogue if you couldnt sneak attack... save for the once per encounter you get from the initiate feat?
Because some of the powers are great? For synergy? As an example, I'll bring up the Paladin/Warlock again, who uses Divine Challenge, then uses Fey Pact powers to make enemies take Divine Challenge damage when they attack each other thanks to the Fey powers.

Scintillatus
2008-05-29, 08:14 PM
Agreed. Taking another class's paragon path is cool though.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 08:16 PM
Well, its a good combo.. but you get just as much stuff with the 4 feats... I suppose if you wanted to double up (and get an at-will)...

Seems like a waste to me.

kamikasei
2008-05-30, 06:43 AM
Someone asked about Races, there are a few in the monster manual.

*snip*

All these races are playable which greatly expands the options when creating a level onr character.

I was under the impression that Changelings, and possibly also Kalashtar, were supposed to be in the MM as well... are they not?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-05-30, 07:30 AM
Is it true that Touch fo Death reduces to 0 HP on a hit and half HP on a miss with no saving throw?


Yeah, Orcus is badass.
:smallcool:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-30, 07:38 AM
Is it true that Touch fo Death reduces to 0 HP on a hit and half HP on a miss with no saving throw?


Yeah, Orcus is badass.
:smallcool:

Yeah. Orcus is freaking hardcore.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-30, 07:44 AM
I have a question: Who the hell let Leomund’s Secret Chest through playtesting? Most broken ritual in the whole book, the rest look at least mostly balanced on a once over.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 07:45 AM
I have a question: Who the hell let Leomund’s Secret Chest through playtesting? Most broken ritual in the whole book, the rest look at least mostly balanced on a once over.

Check out the other thread with a response from moi. I ask a pair of good questions about it. :smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 07:49 AM
Wait, what? I havent made it to the rituals yet... how is Secret Chest busted? :smalleek:

Charity
2008-05-30, 07:53 AM
Tippy is the king of logistics, DnD's Eddie Stobart.

ghost_warlock
2008-05-30, 08:41 AM
Does every class have a bit of MAD (other than Con, which everyone will want) or is that a thing of the past?

This has probably been explained somewhere already, but what are the classes and what are the roles (Controller, Striker, etc.) and Power Sources for each class? Are there any racial restrictions on choosing character class?

Has anyone heard if there's going to be an online SRD? :smalltongue:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 08:44 AM
Does every class have a bit of MAD (other than Con, which everyone will want) or is that a thing of the past?

Every class has 2 or 3 stats they will want to focus on... and con being required isn't necessarily true. your Con mod only applies to your first level HP and the number of healing surges you get at level 1. Your HP for the rest of your career is static. Your Strength mod can be used in place of Con for your Fortitude defense.



This has probably been explained somewhere already, but what are the classes and what are the roles (Controller, Striker, etc.) and Power Sources for each class? Are there any racial restrictions on choosing character class?

Cleric, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, Warlord

Divine Leader, Divine Defender, Martial Defender, Martial Striker, Martial Striker, Arcane Controller, Arcane Striker, Martial Leader... respectively.

No there are no racial restrictions on character class.



Has anyone heard if there's going to be an online SRD? :smalltongue:


There are plans to have an open gaming license, I believe.

Charity
2008-05-30, 08:45 AM
I've heard that there will indeed be an online SRD.

Also all classes are going to need at least 2 decent stats, 3 for most and my Dragonborn paladin/warlock is gonna need 4... but you do get mor stat boosts
+1 to 2 stats twice and +1 to all stats, per tier, so plenty of targeted boosts.

^Swift Sam the ninja strikes

ghost_warlock
2008-05-30, 09:01 AM
Every class has 2 or 3 stats they will want to focus on... and con being required isn't necessarily true. your Con mod only applies to your first level HP and the number of healing surges you get at level 1. Your HP for the rest of your career is static.

Static as in doesn't change, or static as in goes up by a set amount every level (or so)? I assume the latter, but...well, I suppose it could be either.

(My PHB won't even ship until the 6th or later.)

So, for magic item creation, am I getting this right that, in order to create a magic item you need to destroy a magic item? Or, can you get the residuum(?) from some other source?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 09:02 AM
Static as in it goes up a specific amount every level based on your class.

I haven't gotten to the item creation part yet... slowly making my way through the books. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-30, 09:04 AM
I haven't gotten to the item creation part yet... slowly making my way through the books. :smallbiggrin:

I read up to the race descriptions and then skipped to the rituals and then read what I needed to to confirm my reading of LSC.

I figure I will read the rest over the next day or so.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 08:57 PM
Hmm...Reading over the Fighter powers, I noticed the level 15 daily Dragon's Fangs. It lets you do two attacks, either at a single enemy, or at two different foes. The Hit says 3 [W] + STR.

Am I missing something, or does anyone else think it's REALLY strong for a mid-career power? No Mercy, the strongest fighter power by raw damage, does 7 [W] + STR, which is more or less the same than Dragon's Fangs when you factor that you get twice your STR to it. Is it really THAT strong, or is there something I didn't notice? Because as is, that's a power that allows for gross damage, possibly on the striker level (Though I still have to read through 'em, so I could be wrong).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 09:02 PM
That's strong, very strong...

But compare it to this Rogue daily at level 15


Bloody Path Rogue Attack 15
You dash across the battlefield, leaving bewildered and bleeding
enemies in your wake.
Daily ✦ Martial
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You can move your speed. Every enemy that can
make an opportunity attack against you as a result of this
movement attacks itself with its opportunity attack, rather
than you. Any enemy that can make an opportunity attack
against you during this movement must do so. It cannot
refrain from making the attack to avoid harming itself.

Or the ultimate Ranger power at level 15

Blade Cascade Ranger Attack 15
Time seems to slow down as your weapons fall upon your hapless
foes like rain from an ominous sky.
Daily ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Targets: One or more creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC. Alternate main and off-hand weapon
attacks until you miss. As soon as an attack misses, this
attack ends.
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.

(Blade Cascade = win)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 09:07 PM
Hmm...seems like it's not a freak occurrence. Apparently, EVERYONE gets a "Bow before me, because I'm going to cut your balls off" daily at level 15.

Blade Cascade ain't that good, though. If I remember correctly, you have something from 50 to 75% to hit an enemy (A Standard, mind you. A Solo or Elite is going to be hit on less if it's not a brute). At the second or third attack, the power falls, putting it at about even. And there's something similar with bloody path: It's like the Kensai's daily or better for Crowd control, but it ain't so hot against single enemies (Though it's still REALLY awesome).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 09:12 PM
I just want to have a rogue run through a big swath of minions and watch them kill themselves... :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 09:14 PM
I just want to have a rogue run through a big swath of minions and watch them kill themselves... :smallbiggrin:

Hey, now that I think of it, Dragon's Fangs and Bloody Path are almost swaps of role for the classes. The Fighter gets to do some big damage, and the Rogue gets to play Defender and keep enemies away from the frail components of the party (Namely, himself. :smalltongue:).

Aquillion
2008-05-30, 09:23 PM
(Blade Cascade = win)
You just know that sooner or later they're going to accidentally add some spell, ability, or item (or some combination thereof) that causes every attack you make in a given turn hit automatically.


Blade Cascade ain't that good, though. If I remember correctly, you have something from 50 to 75% to hit an enemy (A Standard, mind you. A Solo or Elite is going to be hit on less if it's not a brute). At the second or third attack, the power falls, putting it at about even.Even ignoring the above, Blade Cascade just looks like the sort of skill that's made to be broken. It is definitely going to be possible to optimize your hit rolls in some fashion or another eventually (this is WotC we're talking about here), and when you do, well. Of course as a daily it's not a huge deal, but in a build already focused on having a high chance of hitting it could be very powerful.

I think that part of the thing we have to remember here is that these aren't intended to be like spells from 3e and earlier, or even ToB maneuvers. You don't get more and more copies of low-level powers as you go up in level; you aren't forced to carry around a set number of low-level powers in addition to your high-level ones (you can swap out low level powers for higher level ones at set levels, remember), and you only get a set number of powers total.

So if a power scales up decently (and most of these do), there's nothing wrong with giving someone a power at level 15 that they'll use for the rest of their career. In some ways, they're more like feats than like earlier edition's wizard spells or 3e's ToB maneuvers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 09:30 PM
You just know that sooner or later they're going to accidentally add some spell, ability, or item (or some combination thereof) that causes every attack you make in a given turn hit automatically.

Even ignoring the above, Blade Cascade just looks like the sort of skill that's made to be broken. It is definitely going to be possible to optimize your hit rolls in some fashion or another eventually (this is WotC we're talking about here), and when you do, well.

It's like Avalanche of Blades, really. A supremely strong attack, that requires a big dose of twinkage to make broken.

Now, making every attack on the round hit? Never. Even WoTC isn't so stupid. Something a la Wraithstrike, maybe, but even they would realize how stupid autohits are.

Right now, though, Blade Cascade is more or less MADE to be combined with Fighter. They can use Weapon Focus and the like to get better AB, and the Kensai (I REFUSE to say Kensei, it simply sounds dorkier for some reason) can spend Action points to reroll something. I expect many people to suggest that multiclass just for that attack.

Or they could take Swordmaster. EVERYONE loves Crescendo sword, because it's like an epic ability-lite.

Aquillion
2008-05-30, 09:38 PM
Now, making every attack on the round hit? Never. Even WoTC isn't so stupid. Something a la Wraithstrike, maybe, but even they would realize how stupid autohits are.There are a few ways to get autohits in 3rd edition, actually, even in core. You can use Improved Precise Shot into a grapple, for instance.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 09:44 PM
There are a few ways to get autohits in 3rd edition, actually, even in core. You can use Improved Precise Shot into a grapple, for instance.

Name some that have use AND can be done with a full attack.

In a grapple, you can only do grapple damage, which is pathetic and nigh useless. Yeah, there ARE things like Aura of Perfect order, Weapon Supremacy, or surge of fortune, but all of them make it so it's either hell or impossible to get Avalanche of blades and make it work.

Nonah_Me
2008-05-30, 10:22 PM
Question: What are some of the fighter powers and abilities that relate to shield usage? I know they hyped this up during some of the exerpts and online speeches, but I want some crunch to look upon.

Thank you in advance.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-30, 10:25 PM
Question: What are some of the fighter powers and abilities that relate to shield usage? I know they hyped this up during some of the exerpts and online speeches, but I want some crunch to look upon.

Thank you in advance.

Diamond Shield Defense Fighter Attack 27
Your shield becomes your staunchest ally.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you take half
damage from the target’s attacks until the end of your
next turn.
Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to AC until the end of your
next turn.

Interposing Shield Fighter Utility 16
Using your weapon or shield, you block an attack made against
a close ally.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Immediate Interrupt Melee 1
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by an attack
Effect: The ally gains a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex
defense against the triggering attack. If you are using a
shield, increase the bonus to +4.

Is that enough?

Nonah_Me
2008-05-30, 10:31 PM
Thankee. A friend wanted to know some. I intend on playing a Warlord.

JaxGaret
2008-05-30, 11:38 PM
Hmm...Reading over the Fighter powers, I noticed the level 15 daily Dragon's Fangs. It lets you do two attacks, either at a single enemy, or at two different foes. The Hit says 3 [W] + STR.

Am I missing something, or does anyone else think it's REALLY strong for a mid-career power? No Mercy, the strongest fighter power by raw damage, does 7 [W] + STR, which is more or less the same than Dragon's Fangs when you factor that you get twice your STR to it. Is it really THAT strong, or is there something I didn't notice? Because as is, that's a power that allows for gross damage, possibly on the striker level (Though I still have to read through 'em, so I could be wrong).

The other level 15 Fighter Daily power is also quite strong and its max damage is higher than Dragon's Fangs', since you can make up to 4 attacks with it that each deal 2[W] + Str damage, plus also knock enemies that are your size or smaller prone.

You left out the part where Dragon's Fangs deals half damage on a miss :smallsmile:

Devastation's Wake, a 19th level Daily, is an attack against every enemy adjacent to you, that also deals 3[W] + Str damage, miss is half damage, and has a secondary effect if any enemies start their next turn you get a free attack against them that deals 1[W] + Str damage.

That's pretty comparable to, or possibly clearly better than Serpent Dance Strike; a lot depends on the situation. I think that the 15th level Powers are very strong, but the higher level powers still improve upon them.

You also missed the biggest damage dealer for the Fighter at level 29, which isn't the 7[W] + Str damage attack; it's the 5[W] + Str damage attack that you can use on 2 enemies at once, so it's doubled if there are two enemies in range for a total of 10[W] + 2Str dmg, and you also deal half damage on a miss, called Storm of Destruction. That's big damage.

Yakk
2008-05-30, 11:51 PM
Hmm...Reading over the Fighter powers, I noticed the level 15 daily Dragon's Fangs. It lets you do two attacks, either at a single enemy, or at two different foes. The Hit says 3 [W] + STR.

Ayep, that's too strong I think.

If the second required a hit on the first, or if it was 2[W] damage...


Am I missing something, or does anyone else think it's REALLY strong for a mid-career power? No Mercy, the strongest fighter power by raw damage, does 7 [W] + STR, which is more or less the same than Dragon's Fangs when you factor that you get twice your STR to it. Is it really THAT strong, or is there something I didn't notice? Because as is, that's a power that allows for gross damage, possibly on the striker level (Though I still have to read through 'em, so I could be wrong).

No Mercy is reliable. :)

...

But the Fighter 19 Reaving Strike is 5[W]+Str with a 1 square push -- admittedly, the Fighter 19 ability is also Reliable.

Maybe I'm just underpricing Reliable?

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 12:00 AM
Maybe I'm just underpricing Reliable?

I didn't know what Reliable did before I just looked it up, but now that I did, I know that it is awesome, especially for a Daily power. If you miss, you get to just use it again. You're going to miss, on average, probably about 33% of the time.

And especially against tougher, harder to hit foes, where that miss percentage goes up, you're going to really like getting those Dailies back. Reliable is the gift that keeps on giving, in that respect.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-31, 12:00 AM
I have a question: Who the hell let Leomund’s Secret Chest through playtesting? Most broken ritual in the whole book, the rest look at least mostly balanced on a once over.

Since nobody linked the appropriate post, I feel compelled to ask you to elaborate (particularly since I lack said books).

Also: I would have thought you'd be pleased with the Magic Economy WotC put in 4th Ed. Any complaints thus far? :smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 12:08 AM
Since nobody linked the appropriate post, I feel compelled to ask you to elaborate (particularly since I lack said books).

Basically, you can use LSC as a Teleportation Circle type effect, by setting up LSCs in various locations, summoning them to you, hopping inside them, and dismissing them back to where they came from, you included. Then you simply get out, and you've been "teleported".

They're more like Leomund's Teleportation Dumbwaiters.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-31, 12:13 AM
Basically, you can use LSC as a Teleportation Circle type effect, by setting up LSCs in various locations, summoning them to you, hopping inside them, and dismissing them back to where they came from, you included. Then you simply get out, and you've been "teleported".

They're more like Leomund's Teleportation Dumbwaiters.

Man, teleportation always ruins everything :smalltongue:

So, while I'm here, a general question: all this shifting business (particularly attacks that cause shifts) and "opportunity attacks" - is it in fact as complicated as it sounds, or surprisingly simple?

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 01:06 AM
Man, teleportation always ruins everything :smalltongue:

It is a fairly limited and easily disrupted form of teleportation. You can't just bamf anywhere, and if the chest is damaged in a specific fashion or moved, it becomes unusable.

I don't really see allowing it disrupting a campaign.


So, while I'm here, a general question: all this shifting business (particularly attacks that cause shifts) and "opportunity attacks" - is it in fact as complicated as it sounds, or surprisingly simple?

It couldn't be simpler. Shifting is just movement that doesn't provoke.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-31, 09:04 AM
Basically, you can use LSC as a Teleportation Circle type effect, by setting up LSCs in various locations, summoning them to you, hopping inside them, and dismissing them back to where they came from, you included. Then you simply get out, and you've been "teleported".

They're more like Leomund's Teleportation Dumbwaiters.

Dude, unless you are dead, you are not an object. Only objects can be transported. You can't dismiss stuff while dead.

stupnick
2008-05-31, 09:26 AM
So your complaining that at level 15 a fighter can deal up to 6d12+(strx2) with two attacks? assuming 18str for simplicity, that's 14-80

let's see, a fighter currently in 3.5 at level 15, can deal with the same weapon and same str bonus can deal 21-54. So yes more damage on the top end, but that's once per day, vs every single round.

i have played in 2 4e game demo's and actually am running and playing in a real game at the moment. from looking at the book, things definately look alot different and make you go "huh?". but in actually play, they are simplified and make alot of sense.

Not to mention if you fought an encounter level 15 encounter:
Level 15 Encounter (XP 6,400)
✦ 2 rakshasa archers (level 15 artillery) (110hp each)
✦ 2 rakshasa warriors (level 15 soldier) (142hp each)
✦ 2 hellstinger scorpions (level 13 soldier) (130hp each)

that daily power doesn't even kill 1 mob outright. yes it does a good amount of damage, but it won't kill them.

Edea
2008-05-31, 11:38 AM
Question: some monster attacks, such as a Beholder eye tyrant's death ray, cause effects on a failed first and a failed second saving throw. Many powers (particularly the Cleric's) grant an ally the opportunity to make extra saving throws. Do these extra saving throws count against your number of failed saving throws, or are the only ones that count the default saves you make at the end of your turn?

On the one hand, logic dictates that they all count (I haven't seen a rule yet saying otherwise)...but on the other hand (the reason why I'm asking), that would make a lot of Cleric powers -SUCK-. Getting more saving throws basically just increases the chances of killing the victim faster, you'd want to get opportunities to save as slowly as possible.

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 11:46 AM
Question: some monster attacks, such as a Beholder eye tyrant's death ray, cause effects on a failed first and a failed second saving throw. Many powers (particularly the Cleric's) grant an ally the opportunity to make extra saving throws. Do these extra saving throws count against your number of failed saving throws, or are the only ones that count the default saves you make at the end of your turn?

On the one hand, logic dictates that they all count (I haven't seen a rule yet saying otherwise)...but on the other hand (the reason why I'm asking), that would make a lot of Cleric powers -SUCK-. Getting more saving throws basically just increases the chances of killing the victim faster, you'd want to get opportunities to save as slowly as possible.

That's a very good question. Regardless of what the "official" answer is, I would rule that those extra saving throws do not count towards the "First Save/Second Save" mechanic.

I'll check the book to see if there's anything on this particular occurrence. If there isn't, I imagine it'll be included in the FAQ or errata.

Bleen
2008-05-31, 11:53 AM
Question: So there was a lot of buzz about how different classes of weapons would be handled in ways that makes each of them unique. For instance, playing with an axe would be mechanically different than playing with a sword outside of minor things like base damage. Likewise with maces, staves, lances, et cetera.

I guess my question is, how is this handled? Does each class of weapon have different, unique explicit rules for it? Or are there different tricks the Fighter can do that require he be wielding a specific weapon?

Scintillatus
2008-05-31, 11:57 AM
Or are there different tricks the Fighter can do that require he be wielding a specific weapon?

Ding ding ding. The powers are also keyed off different abilities; I believe flails use dexterity for extra damage, and axes use constitution.

zaei
2008-05-31, 12:56 PM
Is it possible to build a dexterity based melee character? I'm not even expecting to drop Strength completely, but is it possible to give dexterity a larger focus?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-31, 01:01 PM
Almost all of the rogue powers are Dex to attack and dex to damage. I havent looked at the fighter yet... but I know at least one has dex as a primary stat (the flail powers maybe? polearms? not sure)

Charity
2008-05-31, 01:09 PM
Ok so I was re-reading the multiclassing bit... for th dozenth time and it finally sunk in that the power swap feats are better than they look initially, and I don't think you will be allowed to take the same one multiple times

The relivant passage says -

"The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in."

Well we all knew that but...

"Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class. You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny."

and if you change your mind you can retrain it away -

"If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat with another feat, you lose any power gained from the power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level from your primary class."

I think this actualy makes them quite a bit more desirable... to me at least.
If you like to chop and change every level you can do this as well as retraining powers which lets you really explore combos as you level. i like it anyhow.

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 01:15 PM
Ok so I was re-reading the multiclassing bit... for th dozenth time and it finally sunk in that the power swap feats are better than they look initially

I completely agree.

The first time I looked at the multiclassing feats, my initial thought was "this is underpowered. They must not want people to multiclass".

Now that I've used the system in game a bit more, read the rules some more, and read the multiclassing rules/feats again, I find them to be almost perfectly balanced. If they had made them any stronger than they are now, they would indeed have been overpowered.

The fact that you can switch out your multiclass power every level is phenomenal. It means that you will always have at least two powers at their maximum level, instead of only at least one, which is so if you hadn't take the multiclassing feat. But then, there is the opportunity cost of having taken a multiclassing feat that doesn't explicitly increase anything about your character, it simply swapped one power for another, which is an increase in versatility rather than sheer build strength.

IMO they strike an elegant balance.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-31, 01:15 PM
Ok so I was re-reading the multiclassing bit... for th dozenth time and it finally sunk in that the power swap feats are better than they look initially, and I don't think you will be allowed to take the same one multiple times

The relivant passage says -

"The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in."

Well we all knew that but...

"Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class. You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny."

and if you change your mind you can retrain it away -

"If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat with another feat, you lose any power gained from the power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level from your primary class."

I think this actualy makes them quite a bit more desirable... to me at least.
If you like to chop and change every level you can do this as well as retraining powers which lets you really explore combos as you level. i like it anyhow.
3.5 example to explain:
Yeah, so basically, it would be like Fighter 5/Wizard one with every level you level Fighter you changed which spell slot/spell you know.
At level 1, you know only 1st level spells
Level 3 Fighter, you can use Glitter dust.
Level 5 Fighter, haste or Fireball.

So the power stays revelant all the time. I do wish you go the spell book (maybe PHB 2 but it would be nice in the primary PHB).

skywalker
2008-05-31, 01:49 PM
Hey, so, I don't actually have any sort of copy of 4th yet, but is it true there are only 4 epic destinies and metallic dragons aren't in the MM?

stupnick
2008-05-31, 01:55 PM
unfortunately that is correct Skywalker.

RTGoodman
2008-05-31, 02:58 PM
Another quick question - I know Half-Orcs aren't a core race, but are they even statted out in the MM? If not, I think that'll be my first bit of 4E homebrew...

Tengu
2008-05-31, 03:05 PM
No, but normal orcs are.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-31, 03:07 PM
It is true, Skywalker... but one of the first suppliments, Martial Power, promises more epic destines... and I believe that there's a book for the dragons as well.

Aquillion
2008-05-31, 03:15 PM
Dude, unless you are dead, you are not an object. Only objects can be transported. You can't dismiss stuff while dead.
Time to cast Linked Circle: 10 minutes.

Time to dismiss a Secret Chest: One minor action.

Stabbing your companion in the back and shoving them into said chest when they ask for faster transportation: Priceless.

Bleen
2008-05-31, 03:27 PM
Ding ding ding. The powers are also keyed off different abilities; I believe flails use dexterity for extra damage, and axes use constitution.

Counter-question:
Is this the same for other martial classes? For instance, would my (Theoretical-possibly-non-existent-since-I-haven't-seen-the-new-Rogue) Rapier Rogue have different features geared toward him than my Rogue-who-uses-a-dagger? My Paladin? I wouldn't mind if the various weapon differentiations were Fighter-only, I'm just curious.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 03:29 PM
Counter-question:
Is this the same for other martial classes? For instance, would my (Theoretical-possibly-non-existent-since-I-haven't-seen-the-new-Rogue) Rapier Rogue have different features geared toward him than my Rogue-who-uses-a-dagger? My Paladin? I wouldn't mind if the various weapon differentiations were Fighter-only, I'm just curious.

If they have no powers keyed off of weapons with special effects, then no.

Shades of Gray
2008-05-31, 03:33 PM
How are they implementing the fact that weapon choice makes a difference (hinted at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b))

Bleen
2008-05-31, 03:34 PM
If they have no powers keyed off of weapons with special effects, then no.

Yeah, I'm...asking whether they do. Or rather, which ones do. Or if it's only the Fighter.

Edit: Looks like it's just the Fighter.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 03:39 PM
How are they implementing the fact that weapon choice makes a difference (hinted at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b))

Mostly through the dice of the weapon and the bonus from proficiency, which varies. Usually, you want the weapon with the biggest dice you can get, but I'm partial to Greatswords because they have a nice bonus and damage.

Also, Exotic Superior weapons still suck. The only way they'd actually be useful would be by giving them BIG dice (Like 1d12 for a light blade, or 2d8 for a Heavy Blade/Axe) or Precision 19, or something like that. Else, they're not worth a feat.

RTGoodman
2008-05-31, 05:27 PM
How are they implementing the fact that weapon choice makes a difference (hinted at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b))

Also, Rogues have a list of weapons with which they get some bonuses on, I believe, damage. I don't know what they all are, but I think daggers, throwing knives, and stuff like that are on there.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 05:36 PM
Also, Rogues have a list of weapons with which they get some bonuses on, I believe, damage. I don't know what they all are, but I think daggers, throwing knives, and stuff like that are on there.

That would be Light Blades, hand crossbows, shurikens, and slings.

stupnick
2008-05-31, 05:41 PM
That would be Light Blades, hand crossbows, shurikens, and slings.

actually it's just shurikens (increase die size by 1 step) and daggers (+1 damage) not the others.

Asmodeus
2008-05-31, 05:42 PM
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Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 05:49 PM
actually it's just shurikens (increase die size by 1 step) and daggers (+1 damage) not the others.

Tellat to SA. That's a pretty neat bonus to damage. :smalltongue:

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-31, 05:53 PM
Isn't there a rogue paragon path that requires daggers?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 06:35 PM
Isn't there a rogue paragon path that requires daggers?

Yep, Daggermaster.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-31, 10:54 PM
I just ran a 4 person table through the 5 encounter dungeon in the back of the DMG. I had to tone it down since there its designed for 5 people...

I outright killed 2 people in the last encounter... but everyone had a good time and left with a smile on their face.

First time DMing 4e... I like it... cause there's so many things to do. Kobold Slingers with glue pots sticking people in the path of a rolling boulder = win. :smallbiggrin:

Accountant
2008-06-01, 09:46 AM
Okay, not actually a gameplay question or anything, but when does the srd come out?

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 09:47 AM
Okay, not actually a gameplay question or anything, but when does the srd come out?

According to what I've heard, June 6.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 09:51 AM
I just ran a 4 person table through the 5 encounter dungeon in the back of the DMG. I had to tone it down since there its designed for 5 people...

How exactly did you tone it down?


I outright killed 2 people in the last encounter... but everyone had a good time and left with a smile on their face.

The last last encounter, with the one BBEG? What happened that two PCs got killed.. I've killed a few PCs, too.


First time DMing 4e... I like it... cause there's so many things to do. Kobold Slingers with glue pots sticking people in the path of a rolling boulder = win. :smallbiggrin:

:smallsmile: Yeah, I've had fun DMing a number of battles in the system as well.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 10:07 AM
How exactly did you tone it down?

I played "less tactically" then I should have, and in the 3rd and 4th encounter I eliminated a couple of the baddies. They still had a hard time with it... but the whole point of us playtesting last night was to just get a feel of how things work... not really make a campaign out of it.



The last last encounter, with the one BBEG? What happened that two PCs got killed.. I've killed a few PCs, too.

The defender (A dragonborn paladin) kept marking me and it bothered me, so... (spoilered in case someone is gonna play it..)
I breathed on him... then I got the bloodied breath reaction... next round hit him with the claw claw + bite for big numbers, dropped him to -17 I think. The second one, the rogue, just got a bad opportunity attack from a bite... and then a follow up claw/claw bite... then the wizard just made a fighting withdrawl picking him off with magic missile




:smallsmile: Yeah, I've had fun DMing a number of battles in the system as well.

Its good that I had a good time... since I'm running the local game for it. :smallsmile:

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 10:13 AM
I played "less tactically" then I should have, and in the 3rd and 4th encounter I eliminated a couple of the baddies. They still had a hard time with it... but the whole point of us playtesting last night was to just get a feel of how things work... not really make a campaign out of it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing right now. I'm running with two 6th level PCs in place of 5 1st level PCs right now. It's interesting how that changes the dynamics of battles (we also tried some battles with the 5 premade characters).


The defender (A dragonborn paladin) kept marking me and it bothered me, so... (spoilered in case someone is gonna play it..)
I breathed on him... then I got the bloodied breath reaction... next round hit him with the claw claw + bite for big numbers, dropped him to -17 I think. The second one, the rogue, just got a bad opportunity attack from a bite... and then a follow up claw/claw bite... then the wizard just made a fighting withdrawl picking him off with magic missile

Heh. Yeah, it happens. One of my kills was at the Burial site in KotS. Halfling Slinger crit twice and hit with the third attack too. 41 damage, dropped the 6th level Wizard like a rock (he had already taken 8 damage from a drake bite) and the Wizzie even had Toughness too.

I think that Toughness may be a pretty popular feat in 4e, since it has been much improved. Not only does it give you 5 HP, but it also increases your healing surge value by 1.25. Also HP is the general metric for healthiness in 4e, so that increasing HP is not a fool's errand like in 3e where a SoD-type effect didn't care about how many HP you had.


Its good that I had a good time... since I'm running the local game for it. :smallsmile:

It definitely seems like the combat makes things easier and more fun for both sides of the table.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 10:27 AM
According to what I've heard, June 6.

Delayed a week.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 10:32 AM
Hmm, I'm trying to find the earliest instance of flight...

So far I think its Warlock 10 - Shadowform... you get Flight 6 for the encounter.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 10:37 AM
Hmm, I'm trying to find the earliest instance of flight...

So far I think its Warlock 10 - Shadowform... you get Flight 6 for the encounter.

Githyanki get to Fly 5 squares in one round as an Encounter power right from level 1; they can even target an ally with the power instead of themselves.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 10:39 AM
Githyanki get to Fly 5 squares in one round as an Encounter power right from level 1; they can even target an ally with the power instead of themselves.

Oh, well... I more meant class power. Githyanki cheat. :smallcool:

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 10:42 AM
Oh, well... I more meant class power. Githyanki cheat. :smallcool:

:smallsmile:

Yeah, the Warlock's Shadow Form is the lowest-level class power that gives a Fly speed.

Friv
2008-06-01, 03:30 PM
Based just on the Ritual preview excerpt: Creating items is done via a Ritual called, naturally enough, Enchant Magic Item. Anybody with the appropriate skills and feats can perform a Ritual. The key skill for Enchant Magic Item is likely to be Arcana, although other skills may work for other kinds of characters and/or magic items (Clerics may use Religion, for example, or specific items [Holy Avengers?] may call out using Religion as a requisite.)

Fighting-type characters can perform the creation ritual; it'll just take them a few more resources to access it, since they will probably need to take a multiclassing feat to get training in the appropriate skill first. Then they can take the Ritual casting feat. At this point they can use any Ritual a Wizard could (assuming they got Arcana as their trained skill), although possibly not quite as well as the Wizard thanks to having a lower skill check.

To turn your speculation into accuracy:

In order to create magic items, you need three things, in order:
1) To be trained in either Arcana or Religion. This does NOT require it to be on your skill list; if you do not have it naturally (as wizards and clerics do, for example), you can use one Feat for Skill Training. Skill Training, as I did not notice on my first readthrough but was delighted to discover on my second, doesn't require you to take your additional new Skill from your class list.
2) To have the Ritual Caster feat. This feat requires you to have the skill above. Wizards and Clerics start with this feat for free.
3) To have the Enchant Magic Item ritual, which costs 175 gp.

Residuum is not required, but can be used as one of the components. It's worth a lot of money, so it's a valuable component.

Now, the benefits are relatively slim; apparantly, all shops in the D&D universe sell magic items at cost, since the components required to enchant an item are equal to the cost of the item. This seems odd to me, but whatever.

Rutee
2008-06-01, 03:50 PM
Yeah, I'm...asking whether they do. Or rather, which ones do. Or if it's only the Fighter.

Edit: Looks like it's just the Fighter.

It's no, but it is most /strongly/ the fighter. The non class specific ones rely on feat choices that enhance certain features (For instance, swords can get more accurate AoOs)

Xilehxt
2008-06-01, 04:11 PM
I'm confused as to why rapiers are considered superior weapons. It's basically a longsword without versatility but is considered a light blade, only use being the ability to be used with rogue powers. (but then again, this is quite a factor, but it only affects rogues)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 04:13 PM
I'm confused as to why rapiers are considered superior weapons. It's basically a longsword without versatility but is considered a light blade, only use being the ability to be used with rogue powers. (but then again, this is quite a factor, but it only affects rogues)

Because the dev team screwed up on making the feat requiring weapons, AGAIN. There's a project in the homebrew forums about making new weapons, you should check it out if you have any fixes for it.

Vercingex
2008-06-01, 04:49 PM
Any slight chance of there being stats for renaissance/gunpowder weapons anywhere, or will I have to homebrew them in?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 04:56 PM
Any slight chance of there being stats for renaissance/gunpowder weapons anywhere, or will I have to homebrew them in?

Quick! To the homebrew forums!

TARARARARARARARARA! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI)

Kantolin
2008-06-01, 05:35 PM
I have heard that wizards in 4e no longer have familiars. Is this true?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 05:38 PM
I have heard that wizards in 4e no longer have familiars. Is this true?

Correct. Who needs 'em, anyway? They'd be slaughtered the second they reared up their heads.

Kantolin
2008-06-01, 05:45 PM
Frustrating.

On a similar note, are there any animal companion / mount or the like creatures? Or are they entirely gone?

On a similar enough subject to that, do they have riding dogs or the like either? Animals you can obtain?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 05:49 PM
Frustrating.

On a similar note, are there any animal companion / mount or the like creatures? Or are they entirely gone?

On a similar enough subject to that, do they have riding dogs or the like either? Animals you can obtain?

Nope, no animal companions. The ranger is now a lone wolf.

There are War and Riding horses, but no riding dogs (At least in the PHB, haven't cracked the monster manual). Shouldn't be too hard to make them, just reduce the cost by 1/4 and give them two squares less in speed or something like that. Actually, horses are the only animals detailed in the PHB. The MM probably has some more.

Kantolin
2008-06-01, 05:51 PM
Irritable. Well, thank you for the swift responses.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 06:36 PM
There are quite a few mounts in the Monster Manual, apparently. Griffons and Wyverns, for example. Oh, and Dire Boars, which I find extremely cool. :smallbiggrin:

However, I can't find that many animals, and Riding Dogs are not among the few.

Spiryt
2008-06-01, 06:48 PM
Ok so aside from archer disscussion -

How are crossbows in 4ed?

Are they still so very pointless, or rather not?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 06:52 PM
Ok so aside from archer disscussion -

How are crossbows in 4ed?

Are they still so very pointless, or rather not?

They're one of the few weapons that let a rogue use SA.

They're awesome for them. For everyone else, they still suck.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 06:58 PM
Not totally pointless.
Full attacks are gone, so their loading time doesn't make them useless by default.
They do take a minor action (of which you get one per turn) to load, though. And, since the only classes that will make frequent use of ranged weapons are Rogues and Rangers (who have better options), the impact of this depends heavily on the powers you use.
(Please forgive me that I don't look up all the Rogue powers and how useful they'd be for an archer now. :smalltongue:

An important sentence, however: "If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power.")


EDIT: I was talking about the normal crossbows. Hand crossbows are as good as ranged Rogue builds, which are promising.

Um...and apparently, Rogues are only proficient with hand crossbows. I wonder if the increased damage of normal crossbows justifies spending a feat on them. You get a lot of them, after all. Depends on the minor action thing in part, I guess.

Spiryt
2008-06-01, 07:14 PM
They do take a minor action (of which you get one per turn) to load, though. And, since the only classes that will make frequent use of ranged weapons are Rogues and Rangers (who have better options), the impact of this depends heavily on the powers you use.
(Please forgive me that I don't look up all the Rogue powers and how useful they'd be for an archer now. :smalltongue:


Minor actions? It's just part of the 6 second round, isn't it?

I wonder if real 1000 pounds draw force arbalest that takes at least good 20 seconds to reaload could be aplicate to D&D. Maybe I'll try homebrew someday.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 07:28 PM
Yeah, Minor Actions are the Swift Actions of 4e.

Oh, and yes, it's still 6 seconds, which still doesn't make sense to me. :smallamused:

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:34 PM
There are quite a few mounts in the Monster Manual, apparently. Griffons and Wyverns, for example. Oh, and Dire Boars, which I find extremely cool. :smallbiggrin:

However, I can't find that many animals, and Riding Dogs are not among the few.

Here are all of the mounts in the MM, with their level:


Warhorse 3
Hippogriff 5
Hippogriff Dreadmount 5
Dire Wolf 5
Dire Boar 6
Griffon 7
Celestial Charger 10
Manticore 10 Elite
Nightmare 13
Rimefire Griffon 20

Since a Warhorse as a Level 3 Mount costs the same as other Level 3 items, it is reasonable to assume that the other Mounts have their corresponding price levels.

For instance, the Rimefire Griffon would cost 125,000 gp as a level 20 Mount. The Celestial Charger would cost a mere 5,000 gp.

If you are starting your game at level 2, you can take a Warhorse as your level 3 Item. So any character other than a level 1 character can start with a Mount right off the bat.

Arbitrarity
2008-06-01, 08:05 PM
Ranger power Fox's cunning, in the sample character sheet, is an "immediate reaction" with a trigger. Does this mean it can be used at any time that the trigger is true, if the power is available (i.e. not expended)? Does this take an action? (like immediate actions?)

TheOOB
2008-06-01, 09:28 PM
Ranger power Fox's cunning, in the sample character sheet, is an "immediate reaction" with a trigger. Does this mean it can be used at any time that the trigger is true, if the power is available (i.e. not expended)? Does this take an action? (like immediate actions?)

Powers who are usable as an immediate reaction can be activated whenever the condition for the reaction is true, even if it is not your turn, but this does expend the power for the encounter/day(whichever is appropriate). Like free actions, you can perform any number of immediate reactions in a turn(within reason) and even if you have already used your standard, move, and minor action in that turn.

Crow
2008-06-01, 10:00 PM
Dumb question:

When listing damage, for example 3[W] + Str, Does the Str represent the strength score, or the strength modifier? Also, in the example above, is the Str damage multiplied by 3 as well?

Seperate question:

Can you completely re-tool your character at each level-up? Or only 1 power or 1 feat or whatever?

Edea
2008-06-01, 10:05 PM
Powers who are usable as an immediate reaction can be activated whenever the condition for the reaction is true, even if it is not your turn, but this does expend the power for the encounter/day(whichever is appropriate). Like free actions, you can perform any number of immediate reactions in a turn(within reason) and even if you have already used your standard, move, and minor action in that turn.

You only get one immediate action per round (p.268 PHB).

-Opportunity- actions are one/turn, any number/round. Mainly because the only action that falls under it for most PCs is "opportunity attack." Basically, Combat Reflexes is now approximately built-in to the system.

Suzuro
2008-06-01, 10:07 PM
It's STR modifier, and no, it's not multiplied. And only one power/feat/whatever at each level for retraining.

Although those are the monsters that have the (Mount) Keyword, that just means that they can be used more effectively as mounts, almost any monster in the MM can be used as a mount. It even has a little blurb in the DMG about Kobolds riding demons...


-Suzuro

TheOOB
2008-06-01, 11:46 PM
You only get one immediate action per round (p.268 PHB).

-Opportunity- actions are one/turn, any number/round. Mainly because the only action that falls under it for most PCs is "opportunity attack." Basically, Combat Reflexes is now approximately built-in to the system.

right right, was getting opportunity and immediate actions mixed up.

chiasaur11
2008-06-01, 11:52 PM
It's STR modifier, and no, it's not multiplied. And only one power/feat/whatever at each level for retraining.

Although those are the monsters that have the (Mount) Keyword, that just means that they can be used more effectively as mounts, almost any monster in the MM can be used as a mount. It even has a little blurb in the DMG about Kobolds riding demons...


-Suzuro

Man, those are some hard core Kobolds...

Helgraf
2008-06-02, 12:54 AM
There are a few ways to get autohits in 3rd edition, actually, even in core. You can use Improved Precise Shot into a grapple, for instance.

Umm, no. IPS means you will not ever hit the wrong target in a grapple. You still need to make your to hit roll as normal.