building an effective whip weilding bard

[alexi]

I've done too much reaserch on this and all I have is a headache and confusion.

I'm looking to build a bard who weilds a whip and is usefull with spells. Human levals 1-10. Open to PRC sugestions

str:14
dex:17
con:14
int:10
wis:9
cha:18


so what would a mele focus look like vs. a spell focus. I'm a bit lost mainly on feat selection, but I'm leaning towards focusing on feinting and snow flake war dance with a dagger whip.

[Solo]

I've done too much reaserch on this and all I have is a headache and confusion.

I'm looking to build a bard who weilds a whip and is usefull with spells. Human levals 1-10. Open to PRC sugestions

str:14
dex:17
con:14
int:10
wis:9
cha:18


so what would a mele focus look like vs. a spell focus. I'm a bit lost mainly on feat selection.

A melee focus would look like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=55571)

[alexi]

how is the Haunting Melody feat?

[Hal]

Well, whips lend themselves to Trip/Disarm builds. You could always try to take the Improved feats in either of those categories to work that magic. I'm not sure what else helps those.

If that's the path you seek, multiclassing in Crusader can help a great deal. This gives you access to a stance that allows you to get an AoO on an opposing 5' step. You can also take the feat Song of the White Raven, which lets you start Bardic Music as a swift action.

My $0.02.

And Haunting Melody is only helpful if you know combat is going to last a long time. It doubles the duration of your Bardic Music. Does it work for the special songs that only last one or two rounds? I don't recall.

[Solo]

how is the Haunting Melody feat?


Haunting Melody

Type: General
Sources: Eberron Campaign Setting
Heroes of Horror

You can use your music to inspire fear.

Prerequisite: Bardic music, Perform 9 ranks.
Benefit: When you sing or use some other Perform skill, you can inspire fear in enemies within 30 feet of you. Any opponent in range must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your bard level + your Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in the Perform skill. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Special: Using this ability counts as one of your daily uses of bardic music

Not bad, but it's more for a control character, like Batman or a caster bard.

Fear effects lose their bite as you level, since enemies either get higher will saves or become immune to mind affecting abilities.

[bigbaddragon]

Combat Expertize + Improved Trip + Enlarge Person + one level of Marshal with aura that adds charisma to trip attempts.

Edit: + Combat Reflexes of course.

[BadJuJu]

Well, whips lend themselves to Trip/Disarm builds. You could always try to take the Improved feats in either of those categories to work that magic. I'm not sure what else helps those.

If that's the path you seek, multiclassing in Crusader can help a great deal. This gives you access to a stance that allows you to get an AoO on an opposing 5' step. You can also take the feat Song of the White Raven, which lets you start Bardic Music as a swift action.

My $0.02.

And Haunting Melody is only helpful if you know combat is going to last a long time. It doubles the duration of your Bardic Music. Does it work for the special songs that only last one or two rounds? I don't recall.


You cant make AoO with a whip.

[SamTheCleric]

My bard whip tripper looks something like this:

Bard 6/Marshal 4/Dragon Disciple 10

I know dragon disciple is generally a bad idea... but the extra strength pays off when you're pulling people off their feet. Take the Art of War marshal aura to add your charisma to all grapple, bull rush, overrun and trip checks.

Not the best build in the world... but -i- like it. :)

[llamamushroom]

This may seem redundant, but why are you making it a whip-wielding bard? That is to say, which is more important?

I was under the impression that Bards, as all-rounders, were comparatively less effective in most situations (especially those with a +2 level adjustment :smallwink:). So, are you after a whip-wielder, and bard seemed appropriate, or a bard, and think whip-wielding is cool?

More on-topic - I would put more in strength and less in charisma if you're going for a more melee build than caster build. Also, Strength would help with those grapple checks (I think. I don't really know how those things work).

[Hal]

Heh, oops. Why don't I just stop talking about things I don't know, eh?

[llamamushroom]

Because making sense is for losers.

And why can't you make an attack of opportunity with a whip? Styalistically speaking, wouldn't that be their main place in a fight - reacting? (Of course, in a real fight, a whip would mean you'd die quickly. Bendy piece of leather, meet cutty piece of metal.)

[Hal]

Ah, because it says right there in the description, "You do not threaten the area to which you can make an attack."

However, the OP is planning on using a dagger whip. I have no idea how that's different.

[MorkaisChosen]

Has anyone said Snowflake Wardance yet? I know Jack (Solo's character) has it, but it may not have been pointed out. It basically lets you burn a Bardic Music shot to get +Cha to hit.

[BadJuJu]

Ah, because it says right there in the description, "You do not threaten the area to which you can make an attack."

However, the OP is planning on using a dagger whip. I have no idea how that's different.

If whip daggers are just whips that do real damage, then it wont. Whips are"ranged" weapons. Thus, no AoO.

[Toliudar]

As a side note, I find the idea of tap shoes as a MW tool for Perform (Dance) to be hilarious. However, in all fairness, there really should be a compensating penalty to Move Silently. :smallwink:

[Pirate_King]

is there a good reason for that rule? I could never determine why whips don't threaten.

[Solo]

is there a good reason for that rule? I could never determine why whips don't threaten.

I certainly find whips threatening...


As a side note, I find the idea of tap shoes as a MW tool for Perform (Dance) to be hilarious. However, in all fairness, there really should be a compensating penalty to Move Silently. :smallwink:
Only if they're worn while sneaking around.

[MorkaisChosen]

Wait, that's two prospective characters for that game with slightly unexpected Masterwork Tools that would have some... problems if worn all the time.

[/not-very-funny-in-joke]

[Solo]

Who's the other?

[ocato]

I just liked that in his equipment the last item listed is "a woman" (no name?) who's listed weight is 130 lbs and located at "home".

All I have to say is, "Just one woman? You call yourself a bard?!" :smallamused:

[Solo]

He doesn't own the others.

[SamTheCleric]

He doesn't own the others.

He just rents... and one is a time-share?

[Solo]

He just rents... and one is a time-share?

It is often more economical to rent than own these days, though ownership does have its benefits.

[TempusCCK]

Isn't there a feat which allows you to threaten with a ranged weapon, in the PHBII maybe?

[Person_Man]

You cant make AoO with a whip.

Ditto.

The main benefit of any reach weapon is the ability to generate AoO, so that you can use Knock-Down (Trip), Knock-Back (Bull Rush), Scorpion's Grasp (Grapple), or Stand Still (lock) your enemy. You can't make AoO with a whip. Thus they are of limited use beyond low levels.

Anywho, with full access to the right supplements, Bards are fundamentally a very powerful class. You can optimize Inspire Courage to give everyone in your party +10d6ish energy damage. Snowflake Wardance adds your Cha bonus to attack rolls with any slashing weapon you wield in one hand. Crystal Echoblades add 1/2 your Bard levels to damage. Song of the White Raven allows your Bard and Warblade or Crusader levels to stack for Inspire Courage. And Bards get a ton of great PrC and spells. So your choice of weapon really doesn't matter that much.

You might consider 1 level of Pyrokineticist to gain all day touch attacks. There's also a whip-centric 3.0 PrC from Sword and Fist called the Lasher that's pretty good.

A melee focused Bard generally tries to ditch spellcasting, going into Warblade, Crusader, War Chanter, Warrior Skald, or something similar. They generally end up with 18/20ish BAB and powerful music effects. Fear effects and Intimidate are also very potent against specific types of enemies, as melee Bards tend to have very high Cha. For example, Bard 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Warchanter 10.

A caster focused Bard tends to stay as far away from melee as possible. They might carry a bow, whip, or rapier as backup, but for the most part they're casting a spell and/or using music every round. You generally want to play them as your standard Batman Wizard, with the benefit of music, broader spell selection, and more Skills, at the expense of slower spell progression until you gain entry into a fast progression PrC. For example, Bard 5/Full Caster Progression PrC X/Sublime Chord Y.

Or you can go "balanced" and just be a Bard 20. With Bardic Knack (PHBII), Crystal Echoblades (Magic Item Compendium), and smart feat and spell selection, you can hold your own against any pure melee build.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Knock-Down is a good feat too; and makes for a Trip-Zilla. Has not been reprinted in later forms, it can be found in the 3.0 Sword and Fist. I think it was one of the 3.0 splatbooks that also gave us the wonderful Lasher prestige class.