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View Full Version : What's wrong with Weapons of Legacy?



Tokiko Mima
2008-05-29, 01:40 PM
I know the answer of course. "A whole lot!"

However, a LOT of what's in WoL is really cool, especially the fluff. The idea itself is quite solid and it addresses a complaint a lot of fantasy gamers have with magic item based adventuring: that items should grow with their wielder instead of being thrown away or sold.

So I'm working on a list of all the things that don't work like they should to maybe come up with a houserule for a working version of WoL.

Here's what I have so far:
Weapons don't scale like they should.
As WBL increases, most melee classes try to buy the best weapon they can afford first, as it's usually their single most important magic item. However, a careful analysis of WoL reveals that at higher levels legacy items are far behind other weapons you could have bought, without any personal cost!
Personal costs are too high/make no sense/are negligible for some classes.
They are definately too high for the value you get back, especially at higher levels. Some of them make little sense, like a universal skill penalty on a legacy item for skill monkeys. Others are laughable, like a caster level penalty that is easily overcome with several items.
The rules are really unclear about whether you need to spend a Feat for Legacy rituals, or if they are simply awarded to you for completion of the ritual.
If you need to spend three feats in order to wield a WoL, then their power should be greatly increased as that is close to half your characters total feat investment. If they are awarded to you, then there needs to be a clear language that prevents you from using rebuilding, Dark Chaos Shuffle, and other abusive tricks on Legacy feats.
Legacy's are too easily broken.
One spell and a bad roll on a save can cost you literally thousands of gold rebuilding your legacy, and roleplaying out visiting an ancient smith's home for a second time is pretty boring. It's actually much cheaper to get a True Ressurection in many cases!
Too many uses/day spell-like abilities
These are kind of boring and sometimes overpowered because players tend to save these up to 'go nova' with them at the end of the day. Less powerful abilities usuable at will, or effects that magically enhance class abilities would be more fun and useful. Save the X/uses a day for one or two really powerful abilities.

Anyone else have suggestions?

bosssmiley
2008-05-29, 03:07 PM
I only know weapons of legacy from the ones presented in Tome of Battle. They look like a great idea, badly executed.

These guys (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40605) have some fantastic ideas for legacy-style major weapons. The examples given may be a bit power rich for some tastes, but the idea of wielder level dependent damage + special abilities + secondary effects are great inspiration.

Example:
Tamed Lightning
For the purposes of proficiency, this counts as a spear, lance or greatspear. Select which whenever you pick it up.
Reach: 5-10' (like a spiked chain)
Damage: 1d6 Lightning damage per 2 levels. Strength modifier still applies. Remember that it's 2-handed.
Critical Hit: 20 x3

Special:
The Tamed Lightning's attacks ignore metal armour and shields, as well as all natural armour possessed by metallic foes (iron golems, copper dragons, whatever).

Every 5 rounds, it builds up enough electricity that it can cast Lightning Bolt as a Supernatural ability (Dex-based DC).

Once per round when you strike a foe in melee, one additional foe within 10' of that foe can also be targeted. Use the same attack roll.

Deals an additional amount of damage to creatures with the [Water] subtype equal to your BAB.

*That* is what the epic weapons in the ELH should have looked like! :smalleek:

Lycar
2008-05-29, 03:13 PM
Pesonally i'd ignore the skill point/saving throw/hit point etc. prices attached to WoL. Investing some part of yourself into the weapon makes sense but that is just silly.

It would maybe make more sense to handle it like a familiar: You have a link to your legacy weapon and suffer if it does, or maybe even if you get seperated from it. Needless to say that your WoL could be used as a focus for nasty ritual magic, should a nemesis get hold of it.

As for dayly abilitites: It does not make a difference if a mage saves his spells to go nova on the final encounter, or if you conserve dayly uses on items and use them up when you feel like wasting them otherwise.

As for the feats: The rules are unclear but it would appear that these are meant to be actual 'bonus feats'. Of course a DM worth his salt won't allow a player to abuse this.

Or you consider these feats to be regular feats, thus preventing abuse. But quite frankly, i think that a WoL alone isn't worth the trouble to sink 3 feats into them.

Bottom line: WoL are a neat idea, a weapon that grows with your character and that aquires abilities which are keyed to your characters adventures and experiences (or at lest they should be). They are not overpowered, rather the opposite, but the ability to customize your weapon to your liking offsets this somewhat. Just do away with the costs in abilities and be done with it.

Lycar

Aquillion
2008-05-29, 03:20 PM
Honestly, I would just suggest some alternate rules for players who want the flavor of legacy weapons:

You receive your legacy weapon as treasure early on. You don't need a feat for this, it's just that part of the treasure you would receive is a level-appropriate weapon delivered to you in some fashion or another... maybe you retrieve it from the ruins of your ancestral mansion, or a relative gives it to you at some point, or whatever.

After that, you pay gold to maintain, restore, and upgrade it (it has fallen into disuse, grown dull, and lost some of its powers... or whatever.) These gold costs are exactly equal to the amount a player would typically spend on weapons by whatever point in the game you're at.

The end. There's no need for feats, no need for fancy rules, nothing like that. It's basically just fluff, which makes sense because honestly what game mechanic effect do you expect "this is my father's sword" to have? You might need to relax or change the rules for enchanting and altering weapons to make it easier for them to do it with their legacy weapon, but it should be easy enough to keep it within what they're supposed to be spending.

Xyk
2008-05-29, 08:06 PM
Pesonally i'd ignore the skill point/saving throw/hit point etc. prices attached to WoL. Investing some part of yourself into the weapon makes sense but that is just silly.

It would maybe make more sense to handle it like a familiar: You have a link to your legacy weapon and suffer if it does, or maybe even if you get seperated from it. Needless to say that your WoL could be used as a focus for nasty ritual magic, should a nemesis get hold of it.

As for dayly abilitites: It does not make a difference if a mage saves his spells to go nova on the final encounter, or if you conserve dayly uses on items and use them up when you feel like wasting them otherwise.

As for the feats: The rules are unclear but it would appear that these are meant to be actual 'bonus feats'. Of course a DM worth his salt won't allow a player to abuse this.

Or you consider these feats to be regular feats, thus preventing abuse. But quite frankly, i think that a WoL alone isn't worth the trouble to sink 3 feats into them.

Bottom line: WoL are a neat idea, a weapon that grows with your character and that aquires abilities which are keyed to your characters adventures and experiences (or at lest they should be). They are not overpowered, rather the opposite, but the ability to customize your weapon to your liking offsets this somewhat. Just do away with the costs in abilities and be done with it.

Lycar

I'd say the feats are pointless. I'm probably gonna give my players some weapons of legacy when they reach the appropriate level. I really like having them as basically weapon familiars after the weapon is ritualized and attuned.