Yakk
2008-05-29, 01:50 PM
So it appears that there are some pretty effective minion killers -- abilities with large area effects, per-encounter usable, that don't deal that much damage but don't require a to-hit roll to connect.
While I find most of the 4e combat engine to be awesome sauce, this concerns me.
So my attempted fix:
Tough Minions
All minions on one side of an encounter share a HP pool. This HP pool is equal to the sum of the levels of the minions.
When a minion is damaged, if it takes damage equal to or greater than it's level, it dies and removes it's contribution to the HP pool.
Otherwise, the damage is applied to the HP pool. If the current damage in the pool is greater than the minion's level, then the minion dies, and the HP pool loses it's level in damage and total HP.
...
This was worded a a bit legalisticly -- sorry about that.
When implemented with uniform level minions, the rule is simpler: every MINION LEVEL damage done to minions collectively kills one minion, namely the one who took damage most recently. You cannot do more than MINION LEVEL damage to a single minion -- blows on one minion cannot take out 2. :)
The threshold remains relatively low, but a force of level 20 minions won't be killed en-mass by a single no-save low-level area effect.
...
Example useage:
Bob the level 4 Fighter is cut off from his party, and is fighting 8 level 4 minions. A hard fight! Bob is in trouble.
He swings and connects, hitting one and doing 8 damage. This is more than the minion level, so a minion dies. His attack, Cleave, gives him an extra attack -- which connects. It only does 3 damage, so the second minion doesn't fall (!).
Just then, Alice arrives and casts a Zone of Ice ability. All enemies who start their turn within the Zone of Ice take 1 ice damage. Under 4e vanilla rules, every minion now dies at the start of their turn.
Under Tough Minions, they take collectively 7 damage -- with the 3 damage they have already taken, that brings it up to 10 damage, or enough to kill 2 minions, leaving 2 damage left over.
The remaining 7 minions attack. One dies when it tries to slip past Bob to attack Alice, and the remainder chip away at our Hero's HP.
Bob then Cleaves again -- a hit for ... crap, 3 damage. 2 existing minion damage + 3 = 5, more than enough to drop a minion however, leaving 1 left over.
The follow-up Cleave also connects, doing 3 damage. 3+1 existing damage = 4, another minion falls, and the minion damage counter is now 0.
Alice lets off a close burst, and hits 3 times. The Players are rolling good. She does 2 3 and 8 damage -- not so good. The 8 damage roll just kills a minion -- 3 left. The 2 and 3 damage add up to 5 -- enough for another minion to drop.
The minion damage counter is now 1, and there are 2 standing. With a grin, Bob finishes the last two off.
...
Note that under these rules, the damage you do to minions does matter. But an attack that does a reasonable amount of damage for your level will drop a minion.
Instead of granting each minion it's own separate HP pool, under this system the DM only has to keep track of one damage track for all of the minions together. Then whenever a minion takes damage, compare it against that minions level -- if the total damage surpasses that minions level, eat up the damage and scratch one minion.
...
If this is too complex, you can just use the "LEVEL damage kills a minion" rule when a large number of minions are exposed to no-save damage. Add up the total damage they all take, then kill one minion per MINION LEVEL damage done. Any attack that actually uses an attack role and does at least 1 damage still kills the minion.
That kind of thing leaves large-scale Area attacks (like Hail of Arrows -- level 27 ranger encounter power, attack every enemy in bowshot for [W]+Dex damage (Dex vs AC)) that do extra-low damage as possibly a too-effective way to kill large numbers of minions.
Note that monsters of every level tend to have more than (LEVEL*4) HP. So the rule that "killing a minion is 4 times easier than killing a normal monster" still holds.
While I find most of the 4e combat engine to be awesome sauce, this concerns me.
So my attempted fix:
Tough Minions
All minions on one side of an encounter share a HP pool. This HP pool is equal to the sum of the levels of the minions.
When a minion is damaged, if it takes damage equal to or greater than it's level, it dies and removes it's contribution to the HP pool.
Otherwise, the damage is applied to the HP pool. If the current damage in the pool is greater than the minion's level, then the minion dies, and the HP pool loses it's level in damage and total HP.
...
This was worded a a bit legalisticly -- sorry about that.
When implemented with uniform level minions, the rule is simpler: every MINION LEVEL damage done to minions collectively kills one minion, namely the one who took damage most recently. You cannot do more than MINION LEVEL damage to a single minion -- blows on one minion cannot take out 2. :)
The threshold remains relatively low, but a force of level 20 minions won't be killed en-mass by a single no-save low-level area effect.
...
Example useage:
Bob the level 4 Fighter is cut off from his party, and is fighting 8 level 4 minions. A hard fight! Bob is in trouble.
He swings and connects, hitting one and doing 8 damage. This is more than the minion level, so a minion dies. His attack, Cleave, gives him an extra attack -- which connects. It only does 3 damage, so the second minion doesn't fall (!).
Just then, Alice arrives and casts a Zone of Ice ability. All enemies who start their turn within the Zone of Ice take 1 ice damage. Under 4e vanilla rules, every minion now dies at the start of their turn.
Under Tough Minions, they take collectively 7 damage -- with the 3 damage they have already taken, that brings it up to 10 damage, or enough to kill 2 minions, leaving 2 damage left over.
The remaining 7 minions attack. One dies when it tries to slip past Bob to attack Alice, and the remainder chip away at our Hero's HP.
Bob then Cleaves again -- a hit for ... crap, 3 damage. 2 existing minion damage + 3 = 5, more than enough to drop a minion however, leaving 1 left over.
The follow-up Cleave also connects, doing 3 damage. 3+1 existing damage = 4, another minion falls, and the minion damage counter is now 0.
Alice lets off a close burst, and hits 3 times. The Players are rolling good. She does 2 3 and 8 damage -- not so good. The 8 damage roll just kills a minion -- 3 left. The 2 and 3 damage add up to 5 -- enough for another minion to drop.
The minion damage counter is now 1, and there are 2 standing. With a grin, Bob finishes the last two off.
...
Note that under these rules, the damage you do to minions does matter. But an attack that does a reasonable amount of damage for your level will drop a minion.
Instead of granting each minion it's own separate HP pool, under this system the DM only has to keep track of one damage track for all of the minions together. Then whenever a minion takes damage, compare it against that minions level -- if the total damage surpasses that minions level, eat up the damage and scratch one minion.
...
If this is too complex, you can just use the "LEVEL damage kills a minion" rule when a large number of minions are exposed to no-save damage. Add up the total damage they all take, then kill one minion per MINION LEVEL damage done. Any attack that actually uses an attack role and does at least 1 damage still kills the minion.
That kind of thing leaves large-scale Area attacks (like Hail of Arrows -- level 27 ranger encounter power, attack every enemy in bowshot for [W]+Dex damage (Dex vs AC)) that do extra-low damage as possibly a too-effective way to kill large numbers of minions.
Note that monsters of every level tend to have more than (LEVEL*4) HP. So the rule that "killing a minion is 4 times easier than killing a normal monster" still holds.