[4e] Reintroduction: 3.5 Classes

[Daracaex]

Very soon now, we'll have D&D 4th Edition in our hands. I've noticed a few others already attempting to convert some of the 3.5 races and making house rules for it. I'd like to start a community effort to bring back some of the classes from 3.5, particularly the Druid, Monk, Bard, and Sorcerer, which were left out of the PHB this time.

The books aren't officially out yet, so our conversation is pretty limited to concepts of what each class should be and ideas for different powers, but I see no reason we can't start now.

So, any ideas?

[Yakk]

Races under 4e are relatively simple. A few stats get +2, average height and weight, speed, a few minor skill bonuses, a few features, typically an encounter-use power, and a few feats that are race-restricted.

Classes... aren't.

Each class is ~12 to 15 pages.
Each race is ~2 pages.

Paragon Paths are relatively simple -- half a page each.
Epic Destinies are relatively simple -- half a page each.

Classes .. are hard in 4e.

We'd have to reverse engineer a lot of game balance mechanics as well. The "typical" damage of a power ramps up as the levels progress: the rate of that has to be carefully managed.

How much is an attack vs AC worth vs an attack vs will/reflex/fortitude? How much should a class have attacks that vary on defenses?

...

Even harder would be new kinds of abilities.

I'd expect a real 4e druid would have serious conjuration powers that summon animal- and plant-spirits as allies.

The Bard is an Arcane Leader.

The sorcerer, honestly, was a class that existed only because they wanted to more efficiently use the long Wizard spell list. :) We could rework it...

The Monk is going to use the Ki power source (the Asian power source!) Maybe a Controller?

Balance wise, the game needs more Controllers. There is currently only one -- the Arcane Controller.

So.. filling in the empty class slots...

Bard: Arcane Leader
Hexblade: Arcane Defender

Monk: Ki Controller
Samurai: Ki Defender
Ninja: Ki Striker
Mystic: Ki Leader

Druid: Primal Controller
Barbarian: Primal Defender
Beastman: Primal Striker
Skald: Primal Leader

Illusionist: Shadow Controller
Lurk: Shadow Striker
Necromancer: Shadow Defender (-- uses minions to defend)
?: Shadow Leader

Favored Soul: Divine Controller
Demon Slayer: Divine Striker

?: Martial Controller

Psion: Psychic Controller
Psychic Warrior: Psychic Defender
Ardent: Psychic Leader
Wilder: Psychic Striker

[Theodoxus]

Knight for martial controller

And I see necromancer more of the shadow leader than defender. Maybe something along the lines of shadowdancer for striker and Lurk for defender? Shadow's pretty tricky all around, since the whole premise is to not be a tank.

It'll be interesting watching people's interpretations of the remaining classes... wonder how close they'll be to the actual implementation.

[Zeta Kai]

I agree with Yakk on this one. At this time, few people (if anyone) not employed by WotC understand the 4E ruleset well enough to craft a balanced class. The professional are probably hard at work making these classes as we speak, & will probably publish them in splatbooks (that cost $29.95USD, of course) after a playtesting phase.

I also agree that the game, as it stands, could use more controllers, & of a great variety.

Lastly, the Sorcerer is an artifact of the 3E ruleset, more specifically, it is an answer to the wizard's prepared-spell-only casting method. As such, it is an obsolete concept, seeing as how wizards now have per-encounter spell power. What would sorcerer do that a wizard could not already? That question needs to be answered before anyone makes Teh Besst Sorseror Bild, Lik Evar. As of right now, I don't think most people understand the 4E game well enough to adequately even begin.

[Xefas]

Lastly, the Sorcerer is an artifact of the 3E ruleset, more specifically, it is an answer to the wizard's prepared-spell-only casting method. As such, it is an obsolete concept, seeing as how wizards now have per-encounter spell power. What would sorcerer do that a wizard could not already? That question needs to be answered before anyone makes Teh Besst Sorseror Bild, Lik Evar. As of right now, I don't think most people understand the 4E game well enough to adequately even begin.

I think it was stated that Sorcerers would be highly elementally focused, and would have riding "aura" effects with their spells.

For instance, whenever they cast a Cold-type spell, a big aura of ice would emanate from them for a turn, slowing enemy movement through the area. When they cast a Fire-type spell, a big aura of fire would emanate from them for a turn, dealing damage to enemies who move through the area.

They're like a walking zone of control.

Druids, on the other hand, I believe they said would be Strikers focusing completely on the shapeshifting aspect and not the summoning aspect (with a few weather bits thrown in for good measure).

[Arioch]

I have a class which I plan to design after I've become familiar with the 4e classes and rules in general. I need it for a campaign I've got planned: the Witch.

[Yakk]

A first pass at the damage curve problem:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81786

[Daracaex]

I know it'll be hard, but I'm sure the ingenuity of the home-brewers here can make some pretty awesome stuff.


A first pass at the damage curve problem:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81786

Definitely helpful, but we'll also need a way of measuring the other benefits that come with some powers, especially for classes where damage isn't their main shtick. I've got a friend who has the books already, so I'll take a look at the other defenders and the strikers at least and see if I can't make tables for them as well.

Sorcerers: They'd certainly have to have a different flavor than they had in 3.5. One option is the "elemental aura" idea WotC is supposedly going with that was mentioned by Xefas. Another idea is expanding on the bloodline aspect, like Szatany did with his Ultimate Sorcerer (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Sorcerer). Of course, there's nothing wrong with splitting both aspects into separate classes.

Druids: Again, nothing wrong here with separating the "Wild Shape" druid and the "Nature's Ally" druid into separate classes. In fact, I'd imagine that Yakk already had this in mind judging by the "Beastman" entry under "Wild Striker."

[Ceiling009]

From the looks of things, everyone can damage the enemy some way or another. So even illusion-y people look like they can probably end up hurting the enemy directly in an indirect way.

[Pie Guy]

From the looks of things, everyone can damage the enemy some way or another. So even illusion-y people look like they can probably end up hurting the enemy directly in an indirect way.

Making an illusory bridge over a cliff?
Or they focas on confiusion so much that an anvil falling on you will cause you to get hurt mentally. No lethal damage, coup de grace them when they pass out from trauma.

[ghost_warlock]

Illusionist: Shadow Controller
Lurk: Shadow Striker
Necromancer: Shadow Defender (-- uses minions to defend)
?: Shadow Leader

I see the necromancer as more of a leader class. Admittedly, I don't have the books but it just seems more appropriate to me, what with leading armies of the undead and all.

Death Knight/Pale Master should be the shadow defender.

[Johnny Blade]

So, I posted some speculation about upcoming 4e classes and what they might be like over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81955).
Here they are, those ideas reintroducing old classes bolded:



Arcane Leader - Bard:
I think he may allow allies to regain expended powers (maybe even second winds) and spend healing surges when they (the allies, not the bard) hit an enemy. Apart from that, some illusion and enchantment stuff. Could probably be a passable Controller, too.


Divine Striker - "Inquisitor"/"Crusader":
Yeah, I'll go and quote myself...:smallbiggrin:

Now what I could picture and would like to see would be something like an Inquisitor as a divine striker: instead of focusing on direct damage, he'd single out an opponent and target his powers - either by inhibiting them or by punishing their use.
That could allow them to become some kind of striker/defender (or maybe striker/controller?) hybrid.


Psionic Striker - "Thoughtthief" (or something that doesn't sound like crap):
Invade your enemies' minds, leave them dazed and confused - and then, add insult to injury as you unleash their own powers against them!
Sounds cool, doesn't it? :smallwink:
(Inspired by the Spellthief.)


Psionic Controller - Psion:
Make your enemies fight each other and stuff like that.


Primal Striker - Druid/"Shapeshifter":
I think it has been confirmed that Druids would have this shapechange focus, so I'll say they're a striker, too. They would, however, probably have some interesting spells too (some summons, maybe, something to alter the field of battle), so I guess they'll be pretty versatile, also more than just capable of controlling duty.


Primal Defender - Barbarian:
They could probably have war cries. So, I guess they'll draw their enemies at them or drive them back. I could picture almost anything as their secondary role. If their war cries affect allies, too - leader. If they have particularly strong effects on the targeted enemies - controller. If the barbarian is a strong melee fighter and has some high damage powers as well as war cries that drive the mooks away so the path is clear - striker.


Primal Leader - "Totemist":
Many powers that allow to make an attack that resembles the fighting style of a particular animal and grant you and your allies some adequate characteristics.


Primal Controller - "Shaman" (the name doesn't fit that well, but hey, we need a shaman class):
Call upon the powers of the land, altering the battlefield by creating walls of earth and stone and entangling your enemies in suddenly appearing vines.
Perhaps some spirit summoning, too.


Elemental Controller - "Conjurer":
Um...conjure...elementals. Yeah. :smallbiggrin:


Elemental Leader - "Invoker":
Channel the power of the elements through you and your allies. Means adding some damage boni and resistances, plus some other stuff at later levels - flying for air powers and AC for earth powers, for example.
All while doing appropriate elemental damage, of course.


Shadow Striker - "Shadow Dancer"/"Assassin":
Teleporting, blinding strikes. Maybe some combat advantage stuff, maybe a damage bonus that is only triggered by attacks that catch your enemy by surprise.


Controller - "Shadowcaster":
Yeah, I expect the same here - a lot of stuff about tactical movement and perception, only aimed at the mooks, not the big bruisers.

[jagadaishio]

I have a class which I plan to design after I've become familiar with the 4e classes and rules in general. I need it for a campaign I've got planned: the Witch.

Wizard + Ritual Caster feat.