Is Xykon ever going to have a "rape the dog" moment?

[paladinofshojo]

I doubt we will ever lose sympathy or empathy with Xykon no matter whatever that heartless evil bastard does.................

Sure he killed Right-eye, but suprisingly most of us got over that, even :redcloak: but I'm wondering if Xykon is ever going to do something so earth-shatteringly evil with a capital "E" that he will be a proud member of the "Rape the Dog" trope........

[Dalenthas]

What the Paladin funball wasn't enough?

[The Extinguisher]

SoD spoilers:

Or the whole soul binding thing?

[the_tick_rules]

Who has sympathy or empathy for Xykon? He's an unrepentant sociopath who has no abuse or trauma as a justification, he's just a bad egg.

[SPoD]

Isn't this the third or fourth thread you've made criticizing Xykon, mostly for not fitting into your preconceived mold of what an evil overlord is supposed to be? We get it, you wish Xykon had a different personality than he does.

EDIT: Looks like I was lowballing the number:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81577
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81007
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79697
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76844
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76284
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69292

[GoC]

Who has sympathy or empathy for Xykon? He's an unrepentant sociopath who has no abuse or trauma as a justification, he's just a bad egg.

*whistles*:smallredface:

[chiasaur11]

Let's be honest here.
Xykon's whole life is a rape the dog moment. He killed his own parents with his zombie grandma, for pete's sake!

[Icewalker]

This thread REALLY needs a spoiler on it. Like, DAMN. START OF DARKNESS SPOILERS to quite the extreme :smallsigh:.

[Jayngfet]

Check the trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog), he's listed several times for his actions.

He's killed a good chunk of the sapphire guard in a manner meant to maximize sadistic opportunity, and planned to zombify them in the most offensive order.


SoD spoilers:

He killed his own parents, with the zombified remains of his grandmother and a man in a wheelchair.

He killed a wizard and a group of sorcerers who wanted him to join them.

He killed someone trying to hire him because his name was too long to remember.

[Shatteredtower]

Meh. All the world's a stage to Xykon, and he's worked his way up to star billing. Good or bad, those he's killed always got what they deserved in the afterlife, so what's the big deal? The show goes on, and damned if he doesn't put on a good one. Reuniting gate-crossed lovers? Beautiful.

Really, if the series was so determined to make anything Xykon's done seem unforgivably evil, it would have to spend a lot less time traversing the fourth wall.

The only thing he ever did to the dog was... reanimate it.

[Jayngfet]

Meh. All the world's a stage to Xykon, and he's worked his way up to star billing. Good or bad, those he's killed always got what they deserved in the afterlife, so what's the big deal? The show goes on, and damned if he doesn't put on a good one. Reuniting gate-crossed lovers? Beautiful.


What about the goblins he's thrown into the gate, their very souls were ripped apart by a god killing beast, because he was bored, weather or not Roy's sword got a +5, lich boy broke it, and Roy had to go through two ogres, bandits, a black dragon, more ogres, and Miko to fix it. He fails to remember who he kills beyond blood stains anyway, not to mention abusing his allies powers to save himself the difficulty of walking to his desk.

Even Redcloak hasn't slept easy after being around him for so long, this is his most trusted ally, who he lets hold his soul around his neck and focus unholy magic through.

[factotum]

Paladinofshojo, please don't presume to speak for everyone on the forums. I certainly don't have the slightest shred of sympathy or empathy for Xykon--he is an evil murdering *insert own expletive here*. I thought that even before I read SoD, and frankly, if anyone has ANY sort of sympathy for Xykon after reading that book, I despair of human nature...

[EvilJames]

Did you miss his sapphire guard encounter? He could have more but that's a big one.


What about the goblins he's thrown into the gate, their very souls were ripped apart by a god killing beast, because he was bored, weather or not Roy's sword got a +5, lich boy broke it, and Roy had to go through two ogres, bandits, a black dragon, more ogres, and Miko to fix it. He fails to remember who he kills beyond blood stains anyway, not to mention abusing his allies powers to save himself the difficulty of walking to his desk.

Even Redcloak hasn't slept easy after being around him for so long, this is his most trusted ally, who he lets hold his soul around his neck and focus unholy magic through.
Don't worry. In this case the goblins souls weren't ripped apart. They were killed because they touched the gates protections (It was sealed remember, they couldn't get through) the very same protections that destroyed Xykon's body.

[FoE]

SoD Spoilers:

He pretended to surrender beat Eugene's mentor to death just so he could steal a decorative headpiece.
He trapped Lirian's soul in a gemstone and then animated her corpse just to torment her. And then later planned to drive her insane by making her watch an ogre eat her corpse.
He enslaved the village of Redcloak's brother, Right-Eye, and then allowed Right-Eye's family to be killed by adventurers. For amusement. He let Right-eye's family die for fun!
He fed his own parents to zombies. What, not evil enough for ya?
Worst of all, and this is a big spoiler ...

... he manipulated Redcloak into killing his brother just to see if he would do it. And afterwards, he mocked Redcloak for being a spineless coward who murdered his own baby brother, and then taunted Redcloak with the knowledge that he killed Right-Eye for NOTHING.

If that doesn't count as a Rape the Dog moment, I don't know what does.

Out-of-comic? I would say the whole "bouncing ball of insanity" certainly qualifies. Or how about putting O-Chul through elaborate tortures? Or how about killing Roy, the freakin' hero of this comic?

[Kgw]

Xykon is an evil bastird. Not a madman and yes, he sometimes deliver some punches, but and evil bastird anyway. He'd rape the dog, kill it, zombify and fed it with his puppies' brains... which is not what we call "being nice". :smalltongue:

[Ceaon]

I doubt we will ever lose sympathy or empathy with Xykon no matter whatever that heartless evil bastard does.................
(...) but I'm wondering if Xykon is ever going to do something so earth-shatteringly evil with a capital "E" that he will be a proud member of the "Rape the Dog" trope........

I don't think one should sympathize or empathize too strongly with a character that is obviously meant to be very evil, even if he didn't have a rape-the-dog moment. He's funny, but if he wins, that'd be a 'bad' ending - he's the leader of Team Evil after all.

Also, to spoiler a bit of your post:
[spoiler] text goes here [/spoiler ], without the last space.
Start of Darkness spoilers should always be spoilered, because not everybody has read it.

And Xykon will have an even more Evil moment near the end of the comic. It's obligatory. :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Out-of-comic? I would say the whole "bouncing ball of insanity" certainly qualifies. Or how about putting O-Chul through elaborate tortures? Or how about killing Roy, the freakin' hero of this comic?

killing roy is the one thing that can be excused here, Roy was allready trying his best to kill Xykon, so i dont think we can ad it to his list of atrocities.

[Hippoboy]

I don't think people 'empathise' with xykon like: "poor Xykon! he got blown up"

I'm more think of Xykon more like:
:xykon: "Badass" *puts on crown* "really bad ass"

[Niknokitueu]

Paladinofshojo, please don't presume to speak for everyone on the forums. I certainly don't have the slightest shred of sympathy or empathy for Xykon--he is an evil murdering *insert own expletive here*. I thought that even before I read SoD, and frankly, if anyone has ANY sort of sympathy for Xykon after reading that book, I despair of human nature...
Heh. I have no sympathy for Xykon, but due to the reality-suspending effects of it being a comic, I can heartily laugh at the atrocities he commits.

Compare him to a real-life ticket-wielding evil overlord (y'know, the one we fought a second world war over, and I am not talking Mussolini here). I, like most reasonable beings, regard what he did as horrendous. Having said that, there are some people out there that have sympathy for him and what he did. Go figure.

If I knew of someone like Xykon in Real Life, I would really like to posess a gun. As he is restricted to a comic, and therefore not real (and is often surreal), I feel free to laugh with him on his actions and motivations. He knows what he wants (ie to have 'fun', or at least his definition of fun :smallwink: ), and just does it.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Roderick_BR]

Let's be honest here.
Xykon's whole life is a rape the dog moment. He killed his own parents with his zombie grandma, for pete's sake!
Or whole un-life *tibum-dish!*
But yeah, when I read the title, I thought "what, MORE momments?"

[Selene]

Sure he killed Right-eye, but suprisingly most of us got over that

I did not.

He's an amusing and entertaining character. That doesn't make him sympathetic.

[Gamerlord]

Isn't this the third or fourth thread you've made criticizing Xykon, mostly for not fitting into your preconceived mold of what an evil overlord is supposed to be? We get it, you wish Xykon had a different personality than he does.

EDIT: Looks like I was lowballing the number:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81577
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81007
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79697
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76844
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76284
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69292

Heeeeeelo? his name has the word "paladin" in it of course hes criticizing xykon!

[chiasaur11]

Or whole un-life *tibum-dish!*
But yeah, when I read the title, I thought "what, MORE momments?"

Both, for double the dog raping evil.

[BlackMageJ]

I would hate to be a canine in your house.

[Kato]

Okay... I think we need to make clear what 'sympathy' means in your language.. I mean... it's not like I hate him... but that's because this is a comedy webcomic. There's noone really getting hurt. So it is funny, when he does cruel things, because it's supposed to be funny.
But if we take it for real... omfg! I didn't read SoD (though I read the spoilers and know quite a bit, I think. btw, thanks for those who FORGOT the spoiler tagging, there are people who don't want to know) but just the things he did to O-Chul are rape the dog stuff. First the bouncing ball gag... then the acid shark... and I don't want to know what happened in between. He did it more than often... Remember when he turned his minions into zombies, so they don't want to be paid? OK, in D&D more common, but still...

[bahamut920]

I don't think Xykon CAN "Rape the Dog" as the trope, because in order to lose sympathy for him, one would have to HAVE said sympathy in the first place. Xykon is not, and was never meant to be, a sympathetic character. Clearly, the sympathetic character on Team Evil is the MitD. Hell, I even have more sympathy for Redcloak than Xykon, though I don't think of Redcloak as a sympathetic character either.

[PaladinFreak]

Ok. I completely fail to see how you can have any sympathy for Xykon. I can pinpoint at least a half-dozen Rape the Dog moments. Just about all of them have already been mentioned.

Personally, I consider the sending the goblins through the gate "Because I'm bored!" to be one.
Bouncy Ball.
Making his Grandma's zombie kill his parents.
The whole speech he delivered to Redcloak after he shot Right-Eye.
How and why he killed Fyron.

I could go on.

[Shatteredtower]

What about the goblins he's thrown into the gate, their very souls were ripped apart by a god killing beast...That's not the case. If it were, then Xykon would have been destroyed when Roy threw him into the very same gate.


...weather or not Roy's sword got a +5, lich boy broke it...So? What's so evil about breaking a weapon used against you?


...and Roy had to go through two ogres, bandits, a black dragon, more ogres, and Miko to fix it.No, he didn't. Sabine lied to him, remember? If anyone put him through all that to fix his sword, it was the Linear Guild.

But even if the sword did require that sort of attention to fix, so what? That's Roy's problem, and has nothing to do with Xykon.


He fails to remember who he kills beyond blood stains anyway...How many goblins and ogres do you think Roy knew by name before he killed them?

There's really nothing more reprehensible in Xykon's actions here than those of a typical D&D PC. Many players aren't going to bother remembering the name of NPCs they killed over the course of an adventure -- recurring villains, maybe, but the best most lieutenants get is a descriptive nickname ("Redcloak"), and let's not even talk about the disposable nature of the general forces.


...not to mention abusing his allies powers to save himself the difficulty of walking to his desk....silliness like that doesn't even qualify for a kick the dog moment. It's about as evil as twirling the mustache and reciting, "Muahaha."

Seriously, folks, you're trying too hard. He's a villain. We get that. But there really isn't anything that makes me have to hate him. Redcloak made his own bed by turning a blind eye to the evil his associate was doing to his own people from the start of their partnership. Roy and his merry band volunteered for a kill-or-be-killed mission. The paladins got in his way, and killing them en masse in a fashion that made them seem insignificant is just business coupled with a flare for showmanship.

Curiously, Start of Darkness made it easier for me to sympathize with Xykon than the main strips had. There was something very satisfying about watching him destroy people for their contempt, even if it involves an obvious double standard. Hubris destroyed a lot of his more significant opponents for underestimating him, yet the same hubris made him the force he is today.

Best and most disturbing of all, he doesn't really seem to care about losing all that much. The whole thing is just a game to him. It's a very liberating perspective, but not one I'd want to emulate. (I can't even apply it to rpgs these days. Pathetic, I know.) Its drawback is how it makes everything and everyone insignificant.

I can't loathe that. I can only pity it. Granted, his way of expressing this view means it would be in the world's best interests to destroy him, but that hardly requires hating him as a pretext.

[FujinAkari]

Sure he killed Right-eye,

He did? I think you may wanna go back and reread that section...

[Paladin29]

I hate Xykon as a "person", I love him as a villain character.. ¿what is the problem?

[MReav]

Xykon isn't one of those disgusting bio-philes, he's not going to "Rape the Dog"...

Oh wait, you mean the Trope name...

In that case, that's the point of the character.

[Shatteredtower]

The problem lies in how exactly a fanbase might define the point at which a villain goes "too far." For Xykon, I don't really see how that's possible, seeing as this is pretty much who he's always been. Getting Redcloak there would be easier -- all you'd have to do is make him viciously turn on his own people.

It's easier to imagine V having such a moment, though, what with the elf being the inventor of the Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion spell. Seems dogs weren't significant enough for V. :smalleek: I'm not just being literal here either.

[Calinero]

The thing about Xykon is that he is a horrible, horrible person....but does it all in a cheery, disarming sort of way. I've got the sort of feeling that he knows it, too. It's all a sort of way to throw us off guard. He must have a MASSIVE charisma score....it's so high, it's effecting the readers of the comic! I mean, look at Miko.

(takes moment to pray that this doesn't get turned into a Miko debate)

FAR more people hate Miko than Xykon, judging by the sheer number of threads. But he's done way more evil things than her. So, why does he get not as much hate? Well, partially because he's the villain, and it's expected of him. But also because he's funny. We're too busy laughing at him to totally comprehend how horrible he's being.

[John Campbell]

What the Paladin funball wasn't enough?

You kidding? That was hilarious! Sic semper paladins!

[Mauve Shirt]

Sure he killed Right-eye, but suprisingly most of us got over that, even :redcloak:
First of all, :xykon: did not kill Right-eye, that was the point of that section of the book. Xykon wanted Redcloak to do it. And :redcloak: has not gotten over that and I doubt he will.

I think the paladin insanity ball was the height of his evil in the comic, and that was pretty bad, but SoD is what made me really think that he's truly horribly evil.

[Eakin]

That's not the case. If it were, then Xykon would have been destroyed when Roy threw him into the very same gate.


Just wanted to point out here that Xykon was thrown into a closed gate and killed by its spell wards. He sent the goblins through the open rift in the sky over the remains of Azure city after he had destroyed the binding spell, into the waiting claws of the Snarl that completely unmade them and destroyed their souls. Slight difference. Plus, Xykon's soul would be safely around Redcloak's neck even if he went through a rift himself.

I notice you haven't addressed the bouncy ball of doom incident, which for a lot of people myself included is when he really went from "comical antagonist" evil to an evil people started to take more seriously.

[Jayngfet]

Just wanted to point out here that Xykon was thrown into a closed gate and killed by its spell wards. He sent the goblins through the open rift in the sky over the remains of Azure city after he had destroyed the binding spell, into the waiting claws of the Snarl that completely unmade them and destroyed their souls. Slight difference. Plus, Xykon's soul would be safely around Redcloak's neck even if he went through a rift himself.

The snarl couldn't kill Xykon, the placantary held his soul and regenerates him, so the snarl couldn't hold his soul unless redcloak throws his holy symbol in.

[Mauve Shirt]

The snarl couldn't kill Xykon, the phylactery held his soul and regenerates him, so the snarl couldn't hold his soul unless redcloak throws his holy symbol in.

Which COULD happen at the last stand, should Redcloak decide to break his deal with Xykon and perhaps join the OOTS, as others have speculated.

[Lupy]

Xykon does nothing but prove this Trope.

SOD Spoilers

Zombified his Grandma
Killed a man in a wheel chair
Fed his parents to zombies
Beat a man to death over a crown
Slaughter Paladins for existing
Killed an employer for having a long name
Watched his own Goblins be killed for fun
Screwed with his best ally by making him kill his litte brother for nothing


The Symbol of Insanity just made me sick. What he did to them deserves Redcloak feeding him to the Snarl. I mean it, he put them threw hell! Do you remember the Paladin who shouted "What have I done?!?" and killed herself? That's the kind of man Xykon is, he did that to her, he is SIC. Redcloak is likeable pitiable, but Xykon is a monster.

[Jayngfet]

Xykon does nothing but prove this Trope.

SOD Spoilers

Zombified his Grandma
Killed a man in a wheel chair
Fed his parents to zombies
Beat a man to death over a crown
Slaughter Paladins for existing
Killed an employer for having a long name
Watched his own Goblins be killed for fun
Screwed with his best ally by making him kill his litte brother for nothing



the zombies were his grandmother and the cripple.

[Kish]

I doubt we will ever lose sympathy or empathy with Xykon no matter whatever that heartless evil bastard does.................
The more of these threads you start, the more convinced I am you're reading some other comic strip, I swear.

Xykon has too much depth! Xykon should justify his evil! Xykon inspires too much sympathy! What would it take for you to see a character as utterly evil?

[neriana]

I have sympathy and empathy for Redcloak, though he is definitely evil. I can't help but wonder if you have him and Xykon confused. Sympathy for Xykon? When has he ever done anything to make him even remotely sympathetic? I can't think of even one itty bitty thing. He has no redeeming qualities, and is 100% pure evil, cartoonishly evil, soulless, heartless, utterly selfish, completely uncaring, the perfect psychopath. Being funny is not a "redeeming quality" :smalltongue:.

[David Argall]

Just wanted to point out here that Xykon was thrown into a closed gate and killed by its spell wards. He sent the goblins through the open rift in the sky over the remains of Azure city after he had destroyed the binding spell, into the waiting claws of the Snarl that completely unmade them and destroyed their souls.
When did this happen? The only known goblin at Azure City is Redcloak, who threatened to put some humans thru the Rift. We are told that the Snarl has not been noticed at all at Azure City.
Xykon killed a number of goblins back in the dungeon by telling them to try to open the gate there, but they were killed by the gate, not by the Snarl, and had their souls and bodies intact, if not exactly in working order.



Slight difference. Plus, Xykon's soul would be safely around Redcloak's neck even if he went through a rift himself.
The lich is a creature of mere mortal magic. So his ability to withstand the god+level magic of the Snarl is definitely suspect. Now while the rules seem to say his vitals are around Redcloak's neck, this is not completely the case. SoD Xykon informs us he would not be hurt at all by the destruction of the holy symbol. There is obviously some connection between phylactery and lich since what is in the phylactery knows what happens to the body. And whatever the connection, there is a good chance the Snarl can follow it to finish the lich.


I notice you haven't addressed the bouncy ball of doom incident, which for a lot of people myself included is when he really went from "comical antagonist" evil to an evil people started to take more seriously.
He's still a comical antagonist, and if you didn't take him seriously after he treated Roy as an annoyance, a minor annoyance, I'm not sure how the bouncy ball would change your mind.

[Calinero]

Just wanted to point out here that Xykon was thrown into a closed gate and killed by its spell wards. He sent the goblins through the open rift in the sky over the remains of Azure city after he had destroyed the binding spell, into the waiting claws of the Snarl that completely unmade them and destroyed their souls. Slight difference.

I do not recall any goblins ever being sent through an open gate. Very nearly a few humans, but no goblins. I doubt Redcloak would allow that after his epiphany. Maybe you're thinking of something else?

[krossbow]

xycon does nothing BUT rape the dog. I have no sympathy for him, and look forward to his imminent destruction.

[Liwen]

I noticed no one a yet to mention the way he killed Durokan. Smacking him over and over with energy drains after using his grilfriend soul as bait was horrible. That was the moment that sealed my opinion about him. I wish his true death to be as painfull and long as imaginable.

Plus, during the whole fight against Durokan, he didn't made any jokes, he wasn't uncaring or anything. And during the whole "right-eye mess" that followed, he was still being serious and methodically evil. I though Xykon was stupic before Right-Eye death, that the whole point of his character was to be hilarious overlord, but he is truly a fu***** bas****.

[Jayngfet]

We forgot to mention another one

Remember when the being of pure light and good saw his rotted remains invading her place of work and offered redemption?

...Remember how he laughed, murdered her, and animated her corpse to fight her friends?

[*Templar*]

If you sympathize or empathize with Xykon...

...seek help. Immediately.

Finding him amusing at times is not the same as feeling sympathy or empathy for him.

[krossbow]

Frankly, there's no going back for xycon.


There's no way he can get out of this strip without being utterly destroyed and have closure. There's absolutely no option of redemption for him. Even if he was given it by another character, no one would except it. His bill can only be paid in destruction at this point.

To quote Jin from samurai champloo "may the saints forgive you... Because i won't."

[The Extinguisher]

I honestly think the only end for Xykon is complete and utter destruction by the Snarl

[Gargor]

I don't have sympathy for Xykon. But i love the bastard. If you mean that he could do anything to make me hate him? ...no. Can't imagine anything he could do that would make me hate him.

[Eakin]

I do not recall any goblins ever being sent through an open gate. Very nearly a few humans, but no goblins. I doubt Redcloak would allow that after his epiphany. Maybe you're thinking of something else?

My bad. I was writing from memory, but a quick jump into the archives shows that you guys are indeed correct. Jayngfet mentioned something about Xykon destroying goblin's souls by sending them through the gate and I got the two incidents twisted together in my head.

Although it isn't like Xykon wouldn't throw anything sentient through the rift if he thought it would be briefly amusing, consequences for their immortal existence or lack thereof be damned.

[Eric]

Xykon is CE: Cool Evil.

In the bible, Satan never gets a rape the dog moment. He's STARTING as evil. Blofeld never gets a rape the dog moment. Similarly, Xykon doesn't get a rape the dog moment because his entire existence is as Evil. Capital E. One long dog rape.

You're mistaking enjoyment of the character with sympathy. They ain't the same. That you count them the same says much more about your mental problems than ours.

And lastly, IT'S A JOKE! The whole pigging STORY is a joke. Called comedy. Don't take it too seriously. And, because you ain't the author, just because the writing doesn't follow your preconceptions, doesn't mean it's all wrong.

Got it?

[Querzis]

With all the thread PaladinofShojo made about Xykon I'm seriously wondering if he hate Xykon and want everyone to hate him too or if he actually love Xykon and want everyone to talk about him.

Anyway, I have no sympathy for Xykon. Hell, I dont have sympathy for Redcloak, Belkar or even V. But I still like all of them (well, except Belkar). They are all great character and Xykon and V are just plain badass. But Xykon entire life is a rape the dog moment. If you dont even realize that then please stop making thread about Xykon ok?

[snafu]

In the bible, Satan never gets a rape the dog moment. He's STARTING as evil.

Actually debatable. Satan's not really in the Bible as much as you'd think, and the character evolved in the public consciousness over the centuries. He's an interesting figure to study. The Satan of popular Christian mythology - the Beast of Revelation, the anti-hero of Paradise Lost, the guy in red tights, implacable enemy of God and personification of evil - is a very different fellow to the Satan of older Hebrew texts. I mean, read the book of Job - here he is on reasonably cordial speaking terms with God, comes to visit him in heaven having been freely wandering the earth. He challenges God repeatedly to see just how far Job can be pushed - and God happily goes along with it!

This older version of Satan is more of a prosecuting counsel for God, or a quality control officer. He tempts and tests men, and at the end he accuses them of their sins before God. An unpopular job, but someone's got to do it.

Mythology has conflated and retconned originally separate figures into the Satan we know today - the Zoroastrians' evil Ahriman mixed with the Hebrews' Accuser mixed with the Morning Star mixed with the Serpent. The angel whose job it is to punish sin also working hard to encourage it. In the end our Satan of popular culture owes far more to Milton and Dante than he does to any canon material.

And reading the Bible itself I'm not sure Satan ever actually comes on stage and does anything really villainous. He never slaughters whole nations. He never burns cities to the ground. He never demands human sacrifice. None of the usual melodramatic dark lord stuff - at least not until Revelations, which hasn't happened yet and so can't in all fairness be held against the guy. He doesn't get to rape the dog and lose our sympathy, but then he's not on stage enough to gain any sympathy in the first place. He really doesn't get much character development at all.

Getting back to Xykon: I'm not sure what's being asked of him here. The way he exterminated the Sapphire Guard not good enough for you? I mean, they were the enemy and he was certainly going to kill them, but he went well out of his way and took additional risks in order to do it in the most degrading fashion possible. He didn't just kill them, he went way above and beyond the call of duty and he did it in a manner that negated all they valued and stood for. He reduced a brave and noble order of samurai to a brawling mass of chaos slaughtering each other in a sordid and meaningless scuffle. And he laughed as he did it.

Personally I thought it was awesome, but still it definitely qualifies as an RTD.

[EvilJames]

Just wanted to point out here that Xykon was thrown into a closed gate and killed by its spell wards. He sent the goblins through the open rift in the sky over the remains of Azure city after he had destroyed the binding spell, into the waiting claws of the Snarl that completely unmade them and destroyed their souls. Slight difference. Plus, Xykon's soul would be safely around Redcloak's neck even if he went through a rift himself.

I notice you haven't addressed the bouncy ball of doom incident, which for a lot of people myself included is when he really went from "comical antagonist" evil to an evil people started to take more seriously.

When did Xykon do that? They only tested the tower gate that way I don't recall them sending any Hobgoblins into the Azure City gate.
:EDIT: Never mind seems it's been resolved.

Also I'm not sure that Xykon would survive an encounter with the Snarl. It's pretty powerful it might be able to get him and destroy his soul through the mystical connection between his body and the phylactery. Who knows.

[David Argall]

The way he exterminated the Sapphire Guard not good enough for you? I mean, they were the enemy and he was certainly going to kill them, but he went well out of his way and took additional risks in order to do it in the most degrading fashion possible. He didn't just kill them, he went way above and beyond the call of duty and he did it in a manner that negated all they valued and stood for. He reduced a brave and noble order of samurai to a brawling mass of chaos slaughtering each other in a sordid and meaningless scuffle. And he laughed as he did it.

Personally I thought it was awesome, but still it definitely qualifies as an RTD.

Not at all. The very fact it was awesome pretty much disqualifies it as rape the dog. Compare with Belkar and the gnome which some have deemed an rape the dog scene. The one thing the scene isn't is awesome [tho we might label Belkar's excuse as such]. But the very awesomeness of Xykon in the throne room negates any claim of Rape the Dog. Not to mention they were the enemy. They were supposed to die. Rape the Dog is such because the dog is an innocent bystander that one has to go out of one's way to abuse.
As Xykon goes, Confusing the paladins is mild stuff.

[Kato]

Alright... concerning all those saying the bouncing ball wasn't that bad: he said himself he could have 'nuked them from orbit' but preferred making them kill each other. (though I wonder, how low their will saves were)
He made righteous good's kill each other, just for entertainment, probably taking additional risks that way. Don't know how that's not a rape the dog.
Also I wanna (again) mention, what he did to O-Chul when holding him prisoner.

[Eric]

And reading the Bible itself I'm not sure Satan ever actually comes on stage and does anything really villainous. He never slaughters whole nations. He never burns cities to the ground. He never demands human sacrifice. None of the usual melodramatic dark lord stuff - at least not until Revelations, which hasn't happened yet and so can't in all fairness be held against the guy. He doesn't get to rape the dog and lose our sympathy, but then he's not on stage enough to gain any sympathy in the first place. He really doesn't get much character development at all.

He does pop down to see the Big Yin and tell him he can help him out if he'd just worship Satan. He's also figured to be the snake in the tree of knowledge.

Then again, an ineffable god has to be pretty darn ineffable to

a) put the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden
b) let satan sit there and tempt away

rather than

a) put the forbidden fruit a long way away, on top of a mountain
b) kick satan out

[snafu]

He does pop down to see the Big Yin and tell him he can help him out if he'd just worship Satan.

Satan came down to tempt Billy Connolly?

[chiasaur11]

He does pop down to see the Big Yin and tell him he can help him out if he'd just worship Satan. He's also figured to be the snake in the tree of knowledge.

Then again, an ineffable god has to be pretty darn ineffable to

a) put the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden
b) let satan sit there and tempt away

rather than

a) put the forbidden fruit a long way away, on top of a mountain
b) kick satan out

Of course, there's the whole free will thing.
Whole lot's been written on that topic.

[Paladin29]

The genesis book is full of metaphors and figurative concepts, don´t take it literally.

And in my opinion Xykon not only rape the dog, he torture the dog, kill it, raise it as an undead dog, and then he rape it again. (come on, he tries to feed the MitD with babies).

[Thiefree]

I never thought about it in this much depth, I must confess. He is the Bad Guy, as well as a fun and interesting character. So he's likable, in a detached "wouldn't-trust-him-to-carry-my-sandwiches" kind of way.

[krossbow]

Xycon is a great example of why i generally like lawful evil better than Chaotic evil. Lawful evil may be cold, brutal and uncaring, but at least you know where they stand and what they intend. Chaotic evil is just as likely to rip its allies apart as its foes.


The devil you know is better than the one you don't after all.

[zergling001]

Xykon is one of the best antagonists... and the laziest...:smallbiggrin:

[Arkenputtyknife]

Satan came down to tempt Billy Connolly?
Of course. Where'd you think he got the wellies?

[Shatteredtower]

Plus, Xykon's soul would be safely around Redcloak's neck even if he went through a rift himself.Xykon would have to be really, really bored before he'd decide to test that theory. We're talking break-the-world levels of bored at least.

I see the issue of the goblin sacrifices got resolved, though.


I notice you haven't addressed the bouncy ball of doom incident, which for a lot of people myself included is when he really went from "comical antagonist" evil to an evil people started to take more seriously.

I did, though it might not have been very clear:


The paladins got in his way, and killing them en masse in a fashion that made them seem insignificant is just business coupled with a flare for showmanship.

I don't think it should have taken that long to start taking him seriously. The only difference in horror between what happened to the Sapphire Guard and his ogre henchmen comes from how much you're able to relate to both sets of victims.


If you sympathize or empathize with Xykon...

...seek help. Immediately.There's a world of difference between empathizing with the reasoning of a psychopath and supporting it. Anyone that can't see that, well... :smallamused:


Alright... concerning all those saying the bouncing ball wasn't that bad: he said himself he could have 'nuked them from orbit' but preferred making them kill each other.Who said it wasn't that bad? The issue is that it's really no worse than we should have expected from him, based on what we've seen.

When he was callously and sadistically sacrificing hobgoblins and ogres, it was funny -- but not when he does it to paladins who get in his way?

Actually, one of the things I like best about Xykon as a villain is the way he and Roy are alike: they've both been motivated by how dismissive wizards have been of both of their classes, even if the only wizard in question for Roy is his own father. It's also worth noting that Xykon isn't dismissive of Roy's chosen class -- only of his level


Also I wanna (again) mention, what he did to O-Chul when holding him prisoner.No worse than what he's done to goblins in his service -- whether they wanted to serve or not.

Again, there's no question of him being monstrously evil. It's just that he's always been monstrously evil, which precludes any need for the sort of moment we're discussing. One thing about the word "monstrous", however: we use it in an attempt to deny anything human about particular actions or events that are all too human in origin. Acknowledging that isn't approving of it.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I suppose my great love of unambiguous villains belongs in this thread

Xykon rules, anyone thinking otherwise is in delusion.

[Tass]

Actually debatable. Satan's not really in the Bible as much as you'd think, and the character evolved in the public consciousness over the centuries. He's an interesting figure to study. The Satan of popular Christian mythology - the Beast of Revelation, the anti-hero of Paradise Lost, the guy in red tights, implacable enemy of God and personification of evil - is a very different fellow to the Satan of older Hebrew texts. I mean, read the book of Job - here he is on reasonably cordial speaking terms with God, comes to visit him in heaven having been freely wandering the earth. He challenges God repeatedly to see just how far Job can be pushed - and God happily goes along with it!

This older version of Satan is more of a prosecuting counsel for God, or a quality control officer. He tempts and tests men, and at the end he accuses them of their sins before God. An unpopular job, but someone's got to do it.

Mythology has conflated and retconned originally separate figures into the Satan we know today - the Zoroastrians' evil Ahriman mixed with the Hebrews' Accuser mixed with the Morning Star mixed with the Serpent. The angel whose job it is to punish sin also working hard to encourage it. In the end our Satan of popular culture owes far more to Milton and Dante than he does to any canon material.

And reading the Bible itself I'm not sure Satan ever actually comes on stage and does anything really villainous. He never slaughters whole nations. He never burns cities to the ground. He never demands human sacrifice. None of the usual melodramatic dark lord stuff - at least not until Revelations, which hasn't happened yet and so can't in all fairness be held against the guy. He doesn't get to rape the dog and lose our sympathy, but then he's not on stage enough to gain any sympathy in the first place. He really doesn't get much character development at all.

Who was it who said that they run a "good cop - bad cop" scheme on the entire universe?

[busterswd]

Spoilertip: When your OP contains stuff from SoD or OOPC, put a spoiler tag around it, or at least mention that in your title.

[The Wanderer]

Who was it who said that they run a "good cop - bad cop" scheme on the entire universe?

Although I've run across that quote I can't remember... it is worth noting though that the quote is actually closer to the original concept than what most Christians believe today. In the original Jewish tradition, Satan is, in effect, God's spy, who tested people's hearts for God to see if they would remain true. (Sort of like the original mystery shopper :smallwink:).

As for the original thread: most people can be amused at Xykon's silliness or impressed with his take no ****, badass attitude. That's not the same as liking or sympathizing with him, and can be done mostly because this is a work of fiction. Most of those who few who truly root for him are those who will root for practically any villain out of perversity's sake, (unless the guy is laughably stupid, weak, or pathetic) sort of like the reverse people who root for whomever the designated hero of a story may be, no matter what the actions, personalities, etc of said hero may be.

Xykon has raped the dog at least half a dozen times over, and these have been listed plenty of times by earlier posters.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't discuss real world religion.

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