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SyrkthTheGreedy
2008-05-29, 10:51 PM
I've been all over, in, under and through the DMG and the PHB and the Complete Arcane (not helpful at all) and have come to the conclusion that in order to learn/research any new spell (other than the two you get per new level) a wizard is paying 1000g and a week of in game time per spell level of the spell acquired. Is this right? (DMG 198 - right column).
I'm playing in a low magic game world right now which means there are very few wizards of a level higher than my character and I'm getting stymied in my mage's usefulness as at 8th level I know a total of three 4th level spells.
And since the character isn't wading through piles of gold, he can't afford even one 4th level spell (4000g + one month) after 3 sessions.

Am I missing something? Is there and easier way to gain spells other than begging my GM to capture some spellbooks?
I don't want to be Batman I just want to settle for being effective.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-29, 10:57 PM
You get two free spells per level - it's right in the PHB in the Spellbook entry for the Wizard class - so you should have four 4th level spells.

Also, you can, by the book, sort of copy spells from the Cleric or Druid (provided they're on your spell list), although it's expensive to do so, it's less expensive than spell research at your level. To do so, you simply collaborate on a scroll of the spell you want, with you designated as the creator. When you're done, by the book, it's an Arcane scroll. You can then scribe it into your spellbook as normal (provided it's a spell that's on your spell list - sorry, no Cure Light Wounds for you without a feat). Including Scribing costs, a 4th level spell gained that way will run you 750 gp and 28 xp (350 gp and 28 xp to make the scroll, 400 gp to copy it into your spellbook, if I remember my scribing costs correctly, assuming you don't have a Blessed Book yet; more if you've got expensive material components to deal with).

SyrkthTheGreedy
2008-05-29, 11:05 PM
That seems a bit shady to me, but I'll run it (and the pages it's on?) past my GM.
Oh and while I should have four 4th, I used one of the free spells for a 3rd level one. I thought Rage would be a good buff spell but it turns out only one of the party would willingly accept the spell ><

Jack_Simth
2008-05-29, 11:20 PM
DMG page 215, Magic Item Descriptions, Prerequisites gives you the base rules on collaboration, including that the person agreed on as the creator can be either party.

DMG page 238, the parenthetical note in the upper-right hand corner notes that "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth."

Edit:
But yes, it is a bit shady, and open to some interpretation, as the collaboration section doesn't specify it applies to all aspects of creation.

Douglas
2008-05-29, 11:49 PM
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)

holywhippet
2008-05-29, 11:54 PM
Of course, that only helps if you obtain magical scrolls as loot. In a low magic game that's not guaranteed. Especially since if an enemy has a scroll, they are likely to cast it.

Chronos
2008-05-30, 02:18 AM
Or if you gain nonmagical spellbooks as loot. Wizards are not uncommon as villains, and every time you defeat one, you should be able to find his spellbook (or one of them, at least). Whereupon you copy every last spell he has into your own book.

If the wizards you meet are friendly, on the other hand, you can pay them for the same privilege, or trade spells with them. You still have to pay the scribing costs, but that's a lot cheaper than scrolls.

The shortage of wizards higher level than you is only a slight impediment to this plan. The best folks to trade with are the ones near your own level, anyway: Too low, and they won't have anything of interest to you, and too high, and you won't have anything of interest to them. But wizards of the same level as you, even if they only have their base two spells per level, will probably not have the same two spells per level.

leperkhaun
2008-05-30, 02:30 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook

No wizard should be without.

bosssmiley
2008-05-30, 03:46 AM
I've been all over, in, under and through the DMG and the PHB and the Complete Arcane (not helpful at all) and have come to the conclusion that in order to learn/research any new spell (other than the two you get per new level) a wizard is paying 1000g and a week of in game time per spell level of the spell acquired. Is this right? (DMG 198 - right column).

<trim>

Am I missing something? Is there and easier way to gain spells other than begging my GM to capture some spellbooks?
I don't want to be Batman I just want to settle for being effective.

Wizard's guilds. No, seriously. They're a combination of academic publishing (establish priority and get your name on that new spell), show-and-tell ("What I did on my dungeonbash") and Craigslist for wizards ("Wanted {blah} spell. Will trade {blah} or cash/power components if preferred"). Why else do you think a bunch of paranoid, touchy egotists with hair-trigger tempers bother trying to be civil to one another? :smallamused:

Between that, looting spellbooks from fallen enemies and good old-fashioned questing for spells (trapping the phoenix, conversing with spirit guides or the proxies of the gods of magic, tricking the genies out of elemental lore, communing with the winds of magic, etc.) you should be covered.

Mention this to your DM. DMs love plot hooks. :smallwink:

kamikasei
2008-05-30, 04:50 AM
I've been all over, in, under and through the DMG and the PHB and the Complete Arcane (not helpful at all) and have come to the conclusion that in order to learn/research any new spell (other than the two you get per new level) a wizard is paying 1000g and a week of in game time per spell level of the spell acquired. Is this right? (DMG 198 - right column).

I'm AFB - what are those, the rules for independent spell research? Those aren't meant to be your primary source of new spells.

You have two main sources of new spells besides the two free per level: spellbooks, and scrolls. Capture a spellbook and copy it - cost: zero. Borrow a spellbook - cost: 50gp per level of each copied spell. Copy a scroll into your spellbook, consuming it in the process - cost: whatever the scroll cost to buy, or whatever share of your treasure it made up if it was looted. All of these then cost an additional 100gp per level of the spell to actually add it to your own spellbook, unless you have a blessed book.

Is your world so low-magic that you can't buy scrolls or trade spells with other wizards? Talk to your DM about giving you scrolls as treasure. If you're supposed to be the first wizard to attain these levels or something, then you're kind of out of luck. You could always ask him to give you more free spells per level in exchange for less loot, or something.

kentma57
2008-05-30, 07:22 AM
Also, you can, by the book, sort of copy spells from the Cleric or Druid (provided they're on your spell list), although it's expensive to do so, it's less expensive than spell research at your level. To do so, you simply collaborate on a scroll of the spell you want, with you designated as the creator. When you're done, by the book, it's an Arcane scroll. You can then scribe it into your spellbook as normal (provided it's a spell that's on your spell list - sorry, no Cure Light Wounds for you without a feat).


Wait, cure light is a bard spell. So it's arcane... Our DM lets us learn any arcane spell(provided we pay the normal cost) though we can't convert any spell to arcane(I never read that rule)

ps: I like sorcerers more, they learn every spell

Solo
2008-05-30, 07:28 AM
Wait, cure light is a bard spell. So it's arcane... Our DM lets us learn any arcane spell(provided we pay the normal cost) though we can't convert any spell to arcane(I never read that rule)


's not on your spell list. You can't cast it.

Though it's not exactly unbalancing that you can.

kentma57
2008-05-30, 08:29 AM
's not on your spell list. You can't cast it.

Though it's not exactly unbalancing that you can.

I willl have to read those rules agin, but I do know Sorcerers can take spells from any list(I read those rules carfully) :smallbiggrin:.

Douglas
2008-05-30, 08:42 AM
I willl have to read those rules agin, but I do know Sorcerers can take spells from any list(I read those rules carfully) :smallbiggrin:.
Er, no. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererSpells) "Unusual spells" here means custom researched spells or spells otherwise given special permission by the DM. It does not mean going outside your class list as a matter of course.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 04:57 PM
Er, no. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererSpells) "Unusual spells" here means custom researched spells or spells otherwise given special permission by the DM. It does not mean going outside your class list as a matter of course.
Sorta.

There's a couple of relevant lines. You listed one of them. You appear to be missing the larger context and other supporting lines, though.

Let's start with one of the others, and compare to the equivalent sentence for the other Core casters:
Sorcerer: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list"
Now lets take a look at the other Core spellcasters:
Bard: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list."
Cleric: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. "
Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. "
Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. "
Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."
Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list."

None of the other Core casters include that word: "Primarily". The sorcerer does. This is the first notable distinction.

The second notable distinction is the one you listed, douglas: "...or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." Of note for that is that it's not included in the spellcasting section of any of the other Core casters. For the most part, the Core casters are fairly basic noun replacement - compare the Paladin's write up to the Ranger's:

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level The paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The ranger does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A ranger prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.
Other than the noun replacement of Ranger and Paladin, they two are exactly the same. The other spellcasting sections are essentially the same - there is some master template somewhere, and modifications are made on that for the specific class. The fact that the Sorcerer can get unusual spells is not included for any other of the Core spellcasting classes. It is a difference in things that are essentially the same, otherwise.

If you pull up the Magic Overview section in the PHB, for adding spells, for the Wizard it's spells gained at new level, copied from a spellbook or scroll, or independent research (bridging pages 178 and 179), with Independent Research pointing to the researching new spells section. For the Divine spells, it's Spells Gained at new level or Independent research (page 180) with Independent Research pointing to the researching new spells section. The Sorcerer and Bard (179) have different wording:

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3-5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells KNown to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the new spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.(Bold original, underline added) ... and the Sorcerer/Bard section does not reference independent research, unlike the Wizard or the Divine caster sections in that chapter.

Now, it lists no hard mechanics for going outside the Sor/Wiz list, but by RAW, a Sorcerer is not limited to just his class spell list - and he doesn't need proper spell research to do it.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-30, 05:13 PM
Now, it lists no hard mechanics for going outside the Sor/Wiz list, but by RAW, a Sorcerer is not limited to just his class spell list - and he doesn't need proper spell research to do it.

By that interpretation, he can pick spells from outside his list if he "might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook".

You appear to be omitting the last six words, but they are certainly part of the statement. And I'm not at all sure what you might find on a scroll or spellbook that isn't already on the sorcerer's list, but it would certainly be rare and unusual.

Collin152
2008-05-30, 05:17 PM
By that interpretation, he can pick spells from outside his list if he "might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook".

You appear to be omitting the last six words, but they are certainly part of the statement. And I'm not at all sure what you might find on a scroll or spellbook that isn't already on the sorcerer's list, but it would certainly be rare and unusual.

Bard spells.
Including healing magic and Glibness.

Wu Jen spells.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-30, 05:28 PM
Bard spells.
Including healing magic and Glibness.

Wu Jen spells.

Okay. The rule in question is vague enough to fall into "ask your DM" territory, and it's not like it'd pose a big problem if the sorcerer took some Bard or Wu Jen spells (nearly all of which are already on his list, anyway). Although the Glibness spell might be prohibited for other reasons (to wit, the wonkiness of the Bluff system).

Yes, I know "wizards can't cast healing spells" is one of the sacred old maxims of D&D. Meh.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 05:28 PM
Bard spells.
Including healing magic and Glibness.

Wu Jen spells.

Don't forget that if you take Scribe Scroll, you can also collaborate with the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, or Paladin in the party to make an arcane scroll of one of the Cleric, Druid, Ranger's, or Paladin's spells, and learn from that.

Oh, and Kurald Galain? The section you're quoting was a "for instance" - an example - rather than hard text.

Chronos
2008-05-30, 05:33 PM
I think the intent there is to give sorcerers some equivalent to spell research. For wizards, there's not really much of a distinction between "standard" spells and researched spells, or spells added in splatbooks. If I loot the villain's spellbook and find Fireball on one of the pages, then I can learn Fireball. If I find Evillo's Ultimate Arcane Thumb-Twiddler on one of the pages, then I can learn Evillo's Ultimate Arcane Thumb-Twiddler, despite it being a "custom" spell. And if I never happen to find Magic Missile in anyone's spellbook, then I'm not going to learn Magic Missile, despite it being a "standard" spell. This allows new spells from other sources (whether homebrew or splatbook) to be seamlessly incorporated into the game, as far as wizards are concerned.

For sorcerers, though, it's a little more complicated. Any sorcerer anywhere in the world can just wake up one day and suddenly be able to cast Fireball. But can a sorcerer just wake up one day and suddenly be able to cast Evillo's Ultimate Arcane Thumb-Twiddler, as soon as Evillo finishes researching it? That would seem to be somewhat unfair to Evillo, to go through all that work of research, and suddenly everyone can magically twiddle thumbs just as well. So there needs to be some sort of mechanic governing how a sorcerer can gain the nonstandard spells that a wizard could gain.

Collin152
2008-05-30, 05:41 PM
Wu Jen spells (nearly all of which are already on his list, anyway).

They keep all the cool ones to themselves.
Giant size.
Cloud Chariot.
That one what lets you remove your heart.

nargbop
2008-05-30, 11:13 PM
A wizard can...
[/b] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)

Oh ye Gods, giant link.

My factotum regularly stole spells instead of buying them. Technically, he wasn't able to research them and didn't get them free... my DM and I just ran with it. It's much more fun to be a sneaky take-what-you-can Robin Hood than a stuffy old caster-type.
Boccob's Blessed Book is one of the best items in core, BTW. Steal someone's spellbook and copy out as much as you can, for FREE. Then sell it in another town after putting a couple false auras on it.