4e Retraining

[Bosaxon]

Without playing the game, I feel like this mechanic, being able to swap out 1 power, trained skill, or feat per level, really makes choosing pointless. I understand retraining for a dynamic shift within the campaign (like a ranger who chose the nature skill for a forest campaign retraining for dungeoneering for a longterm underdark quest) but to me it just seems like an abuseable mechanic that just feels like a character has no concept anymore but instead is a series of slots where we place in soon to be useful traits versus traits we will use over the longterm.

[SamTheCleric]

The same system was introduced in the Players Handbook II for 3.5... I liked it then, and I like it now. :smallsmile:

[Azerian Kelimon]

Without playing the game, I feel like this mechanic, being able to swap out 1 power, trained skill, or feat per level, really makes choosing pointless. I understand retraining for a dynamic shift within the campaign (like a ranger who chose the nature skill for a forest campaign retraining for dungeoneering for a longterm underdark quest) but to me it just seems like an abuseable mechanic that just feels like a character has no concept anymore but instead is a series of slots where we place in soon to be useful traits versus traits we will use over the longterm.

Because screwing people due to a less than ideal choice is the way to go.

Monte Cook would like to have a chat with you.

[Edea]

Remember that it only happens when you gain a level, and you need to pick -one- of those options for swapping. Seeing how few power slots you receive to begin with, I'm pretty happy that exchange mechanic is present as opposed to, well, 3.0 Sorcs.

[Tsotha-lanti]

It's a cool mechanic. It's silly enough that the game is based on classes and levels and you're working with hard-coded limits to how many things you can do - at least this way you're not likely to really screw yourself over.

Choosing still makes a heck of a lot of difference, since you can't actually adapt to encounters, only to possibly changes in general campaign tone, and fix screw-ups in your build.

Along with removing actual multiclassing, this should make planning builds from level 1 onward more or less unnecessary. That's good, really. As much fun as coming up with good 3.5 builds may be, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with RPGs. (In fact, it's a distinctly WoW-ish thing... oh, the irony!)

[Rutee]

Remember that it only happens when you gain a level, and you need to pick -one- of those options for swapping. Seeing how few power slots you receive to begin with, I'm pretty happy that exchange mechanic is present as opposed to, well, 3.0 Sorcs.

Isn't it the same as the one in 3.0 Sorcs? I mean, I know Sorcs can only retrain spells known, just making sure I have that right.

[Kurald Galain]

The retraining mechanic is quite good, actually. The thing is, 3.5 doesn't really have the mechanic unless you use the PHB2, and it really desperately needs it. 4E has the mechanic in core, but has far less need of it.

This is primarily because 3E prestige classes (and some feats, even) have complex multi-layered prerequisites that will prevent you from entering them unless you plan ahead. 4E doesn't use that system.

Also, well, you get so little and few powers known in 4E, that I'm sure some people will get bored of some of them and will want to swap them out after a few levels.

[Edea]

Isn't it the same as the one in 3.0 Sorcs? I mean, I know Sorcs can only retrain spells known, just making sure I have that right.

3.5 Sorcs get to retrain their spells known, that's for sure. I thought 3.0 Sorcs were ****ed if they made an incorrect spells known decision? Mine wasn't allowed to, perhaps my DM was being a ****.

[Bosaxon]

Maybe it's just me then. I've never used retraining in 3.5, and I doubt I will in 4. If I make a crappy choice, it's my bad and I'll learn a lesson for next time around, which will happen a lot. :smallsmile:

[valadil]

I disagree that retraining will turn a character into a series of slots. On the contrary, I think the retraining option will let people think of their characters as characters instead of builds. Why? Because you can make up for sub par choices and fix them later. Some mechanics need to be played with in order to see how well they work. Other abilities just don't get used as often as predicted. It's not like we're getting to retrain class levels.

[Reinboom]

Isn't it the same as the one in 3.0 Sorcs? I mean, I know Sorcs can only retrain spells known, just making sure I have that right.


3.5 Sorcs get to retrain their spells known, that's for sure. I thought 3.0 Sorcs were ****ed if they made an incorrect spells known decision? Mine wasn't allowed to, perhaps my DM was being a ****.

Only on even levels of 4 or greater..
:smallsigh::smalltongue:

[Rutee]

I disagree that retraining will turn a character into a series of slots. On the contrary, I think the retraining option will let people think of their characters as characters instead of builds. Why? Because you can make up for sub par choices and fix them later. Some mechanics need to be played with in order to see how well they work. Other abilities just don't get used as often as predicted. It's not like we're getting to retrain class levels.

I can agree with the spirit behind this. I can see how it can damage people's sense of realism, but as a whole I like the ability to redistribute my abilities if I was wrong and am sucking. Reflavoring some mechanical abilities to be identical to the old IC version just sweetens the pot.

Bosaxon: You will need to swap out some powers known. Period. Or else you'll be using level 10 Encounter or Daily powers at level 30, where they're much less useful.

[Kurald Galain]

The only silly thing about retraining is that if you retrain a wizard spell or ritual, it somehow disappears from your spellbook.

I mean, they could just as easily have written that you're out of practice and thus no longer capable of performing it. But nooooo....

[KillianHawkeye]

If they didn't explicitly remove it from the spellbook, you KNOW there'd be someone who says "But it's still in my spellbook, so I can still prepare it even though I traded it for a new power, effectively getting a new power for free, right?"

Also, removing the need to build your character level by level is a great improvement for high level characters. I loved having that ability in Star Wars Saga Ed.

[Scintillatus]

I like the idea of a Spellbook being less a book of spells and more an ongoing set of arcane thesises and studies. It's less a case of you "mystically losing the paper", and more your pages being dedicated to newer, more complex spells.

[Bosaxon]

I can agree with the spirit behind this. I can see how it can damage people's sense of realism,

I think this is the prism I'm viewing this through. I don't see how it's realistic to retrain things instantly. In 3.5, it was supposed to be tied to some sort of side quest, which to me seems like a realistic reason to have a retrained ability. You earned it, you get it.


Bosaxon: You will need to swap out some powers known. Period. Or else you'll be using level 10 Encounter or Daily powers at level 30, where they're much less useful.

Why are there only level 1 at wills? I suspect those will get used the most. I understand this argument better than most for retraining, but of the three, I believe powers are the easiest to justify retraining. From a gameworld perspective, you'd focus practicing on one thing and get to the point where there's nonuse for the thing your replacing.



I'll admit my opinion on retraining is different than the norm, although I've only played with DM's that allow you to fix mistakes within a reasonable amount of time, usually one session. I also believe some characters should have their own quarks, mistakes that you made without realizing to make them more believable as a character.

[Suzuro]

Bosaxon: You will need to swap out some powers known. Period. Or else you'll be using level 10 Encounter or Daily powers at level 30, where they're much less useful.


...actually, when retraining you can only exchange it for powers of the same level.....so sorry charlie.


-Suzuro

[Azerian Kelimon]

...actually, when retraining you can only exchange it for powers of the same level.....so sorry charlie.


-Suzuro

Nope, you can change 'em for higher level powers.

[Suzuro]

You can replace a power with another
power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter
attack power, daily attack power, or utility power),
of the same level or lower, and from the same class

Straight from the PHB


-Suzuro

[Edea]

Um, I think there's two things going on here: "retraining" and "swapping." Swaps are preordained points in your character career where you can exchange the listed type of power with any other power matching that type (irrespective of level). Retraining a power by itself, however, is level-restricted (p.28, PHB).

[Azerian Kelimon]

Aaah, that's it. A confusion.

[Suzuro]

Yes, most likely, I misinterpreted you.


-Suzuro