Misconceptions About Flavor

[averagejoe]

It’s a Well Known Fact that every faucet of life isn’t defined by class, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) yet I see related errors being made all the time. There is very little actually written about the flavor of any given class, yet people seem to feel constrained by the connotations attached to the classes, always playing the class as presented instead of as desired, even when doing so would contradict nothing about the class itself. I think most people could agree that samurai is an unnecessary class because, besides being ridiculously bad, one only needs to play a fighter or paladin. In a similar way the truenamer class is unnecessary. It’s a cool concept, yes, but this can be done with any spellcaster. A wizard can summon a badger because he knows its true name. He can cast fireball because he knows the true name of fire. This isn’t explicitly stated in the wizard class, but nothing the wizard does contradicts this either. It’s even in the rules that these spells require verbal components, yet there’s nothing to suggest what these components should be, so they might as well be true names. Similarly, one could as easily describe power attack as a magic-like effect as describe it as the fighter hitting really hard. Maybe his sword glows just before the strike. There’s nothing that says you can’t do any of these things.

One of the most annoying incarnations of this is when people insist that ToB classes or 4e or whatever are “too anime.” Ignoring for a moment the gross misstatement this makes about anime itself, there is nothing anime at all about any class except for what you make of it. You can play any class as “anime,” it just depends on how you describe anything. I’ll illustrate with an example. Player 1 and Player 2 are playing a wizard and a warblade respectively. The wizard has a contingency-ed fly cast on him. They’re being attacked by a pair of, let’s say, vampires.
DM: As the spell goes off, the energy whips through the air around Wizard. His clothes and hair are ruffled as if by a strong wind. Warblade winces as the wave of power washes over him. The vampires halt for a moment, scared and a little awed by the display of power, thought their eyes still gleam with hunger in the moonlight. Player 1, it’s your turn.
Player 1: Wizard leaps high into the air and pauses for a moment. He brings his hands together, almost touching, and power cackles between them. A green ball of glowing energy appears as the spell forms, and Wizard shouts the verbal components to disintegrate. He thrusts his hands forward and the ball flies out from between them and toward the vampire.
DM: The ball rushes forward and impacts the vampire, the explosion kicking up dust and debris, blocking the vampire from your line of sight. Wizard is breathing hard from the effort of casting, and his chest rises and falls as he watches the dust cloud for signs of life. Finally the dust clears and *rolls* you see that the vampire has been completely destroyed. Player 2, it’s your turn.
Player 2: Warblade runs forward to strike and activates raging mongoose…
Player 1: Raging mongoose? What kind of weird anime attack name is that?
DM: Yeah, this is European fantasy. That’s lame.
Player 1: Totally lame.
Player 2: *sigh* Fine, I hit him with a sword.

Nothing I wrote actually contradicted the wizard fluff as written, yet the warblade mostly just acted like your standard figher, while the wizard's powere level was over nine thousand. There’s nothing about an ability called “disintegrate” that makes it one way or an ability called “raging mongoose” that makes it another way. Such rules are abstractions, and how the rules are interpreted and executed is a player’s choice. Like a poetic form, each class does impose certain flavor restrictions. For example, it would be difficult to style a rogue as a knight. However, within those restrictions there is a great amount of freedom, enough to make it interesting and varied. If a certain style isn’t yours then that’s cool; however, it’s incorrect to ascribe this to a certain class or mechanic. Such things are what you make of them.

[shadow_archmagi]

I agree. ToB is not mechanically anime.

I mean, Star Wars isn't anime, (well, it has been animized MANY times, but it wasn't originally) yet it includes people who fight with magic swords and shoot lighting at one another in the middle of a fight.

I adjust fluff however I need it.

[PaladinBoy]

My character is capable of casting the spell binding winds. The effect is to summon winds which flow around the target and prevent it from moving. I usually add a hand gesture to point out the target and a flash of light from the dragonmark (since it's a dragonmark power) but I don't believe these are strictly necessary.

One character from an anime I watch can cast a spell called Winds of Admonishment. The effect is to summon winds which flow around the target and prevent it from moving. (Yes, I did copy/paste that from the above section.) There's usually some wind flowing around said character during the casting, and she uses a hand gesture to direct the winds to flow around a particular target.

Other than the dramatics involved (the pure fluff which makes no game difference) these are exactly the same thing. I agree wholeheartedly (which I probably could have said without the example, but I find the example funny and enjoy sharing it).

EDIT: Despite the similarities, I have yet to hear anyone call dragonmarks or any spellcasting "anime".

[Blanks]

My current campaign is going to involve a paladin womanizer, a noblewoman barbarian, and a commoner spellcaster (okay, im gonna tweak the last one :smallwink: )

[Xefas]

Wait...how can something be "mechanically" Anime? Anime is an art style.

That's like saying Angels are too "Painting-y" because there are lots of paintings of Angels.

[Johnny Blade]

Well, I almost agree.

However, when an entire system is presented in a way that evokes the image of it being 'anime' somehow (I don't want to discuss what that actually means, by the way. Let's just assume it's totally unsexy.), then that's canon and every player has to deal with it.

And since not all gaming groups consist of people who have been friends for years and have the same views about the ideal system, what is canon will in most cases impact a compromise about how to portray actions when playing.

It also simply is the starting point of all modifications. And no matter how creative you are, it will always be in the back of your mind.

And, if it's a matter of the system played, the flavor parts of it probably also inspired the mechanics, meaning that the system lends itself to this flavor most easily.

So, what I'm trying to say is: while it's easy to change the flavor of a single class, race, or even entire splatbook, it becomes harder as the scale grows larger.



(By the way, I don't know **** about 4e, so this post is not about it.)

[UserClone]

No, I imagine every faucet of life is defined by an ability to draw water from the ground and put it in your container. I think that it's important that players know the faucet's purpose, even if they don't know specifically how it works (which is something that more the DM needs to work out within his/her own game world).

[Worira]

The ToB is totally anime. I mean, just look at the classes. One's dedicated to killing people by writing in a notebook, one pilots giant mecha, and one has zany romances.

[UserClone]

The ToB is totally anime. I mean, just look at the classes. One's dedicated to killing people by writing in a notebook, one pilots giant mecha, and one has zany romances.

...buh?10 characters
Edit: Mainly @ the first one, b/c I don't get the reference.

[averagejoe]

So, what I'm trying to say is: while it's easy to change the flavor of a single class, race, or even entire splatbook, it becomes harder as the scale grows larger.

But I'm not talking about changing the flavor of anything. I'm talking about a personal decision made by each player to play the sort of character they want to. In nothing I said did I change any flavor at all.

By the way, I didn't mean to focus the discussion so much on ToB, it's just the most common complaint I've seen. It just seems symptomatic of a larger problem with the perceptions people have about what "class" means.

[Xefas]

...buh?10 characters
Edit: Mainly @ the first one, b/c I don't get the reference.

Death Note.

Here, just watch a minute or two of this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huF_KE3-SmM)

Best Anime ever made, actually.

EDIT: Watch the Subtitled ones, THE SUBS, DAMNIT!

[Yuki Akuma]

...buh?10 characters
Edit: Mainly @ the first one, b/c I don't get the reference.

Death Note. It's about a guy who kills people by writing in a note book.

Also, potato chips are bloody epic.

[Project_Mayhem]

The ToB is totally anime. I mean, just look at the classes. One's dedicated to killing people by writing in a notebook, one pilots giant mecha, and one has zany romances.

I wish you spoke the truth. I really do.:smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, Average Joe hit the nail on the head. In our last game, my mate was playing a warblade while I played a Barbarian. His maneuvers were just that - sword techniques. While I yelled POWER ATTACK, and also RAAAAGGGGE every time I hit anything.

I'll admit that parts of TOB, which I assume Johnny Blade was refering to, specifically the ninja/monk-ish schools, come with a distinct Wuxia flavour about it, that might not fit in every campaign. However, the mechanics don't require you to go all slo-mo and shout GIRALLION WINDMILL FLESH RIP everytime you attack.

Hell, half the schools, like White Raven Tacticsm, or Devoted Soul seem to suggest the total opposite.

[JaxGaret]

No, I imagine every faucet of life is defined by an ability to draw water from the ground and put it in your container. I think that it's important that players know the faucet's purpose, even if they don't know specifically how it works (which is something that more the DM needs to work out within his/her own game world).

I too stopped reading after "faucet of life".

[Xefas]

I too stopped reading after "faucet of life".

It's just a magic item :smallannoyed:

The Faucet of Life

A Faucet of Life appears as a scintillating opalescent tube with a turnable knob on the top. When attached to the opening of a Decanter of Endless Water, the user may turn the knob to allow water from the decanter to pass through the faucet and out the other end. Any corpse touched by the water is automatically subjected to a Raise Dead spell. A round after the water leaves the faucet, it loses its purity, and no longer conveys its Raise Dead effect.

A Knowledge (Arcana) check will divulge the following information:
DC 15: Every faucet of life isn't defined by class.

Strong Conjuration (Healing); CL 9; Craft Wondrous Item; Raise Dead; Market Price: 590,000gp

[Scintillatus]

Why don't you address his points instead of mocking a minor spelling error? :smallsigh:

Seriously, he brings up an excellent point. People who don't have a legitimate complaint about 4e are quick to scream "mumorpergur!" or "animu!" rather than formulate an actual argument.

[Xefas]

Why don't you address his points instead of mocking a minor spelling error? :smallsigh:

Seriously, he brings up an excellent point. People who don't have a legitimate complaint about 4e are quick to scream "mumorpergur!" or "animu!" rather than formulate an actual argument.

Because his points don't need addressing. He's right and people who compare any edition of D&D to Anime are wrong; end of story.

It's like saying "The sky is blue. Discuss."

[JaxGaret]

Why don't you address his points instead of mocking a minor spelling error? :smallsigh:

Seriously, he brings up an excellent point. People who don't have a legitimate complaint about 4e are quick to scream "mumorpergur!" or "animu!" rather than formulate an actual argument.

First of all, I've seen this argument and participated in threads such as these already, many, many times.

Secondly, it takes a single sentence: "Some people play with mutable flavor, others don't, and the two sides will never agree on this issue" to dash the OP's argument to bits.

Essentially, the OP is making the same mistake as the people they are decrying. They're both claiming that others are "doin' it wrong".

[Azerian Kelimon]

Y'know, I'd love to see what would happen if we turned all maneuvers into things like, I dunno, Spinning strike or Deadly Hit. Everyone would complain about them being too bland.

And then, imagine what would happen if we gave spells Shonen names, like Seven Winds Annihilating Bomb of Devastation.

[JaxGaret]

And then, imagine what would happen if we gave spells Shonen names, like Seven Winds Annihilating Bomb of Devastation.

The Warlock gets a lot of cool power names like that, like Thirteen Baleful Stars.

[FlyMolo]

It is true, 4e has a lot of rules built in to make it more fun, that don't necessarily make any sense whatsoever. Healing surges, for instance.

But yes. Restyle all the ToB classes as an artificer-like class. Deals fire damage? Because he lit his sword ON FIRE! Gains DR? Because he painted himself with clay that hardened instantly. Ended the sun with Iron Heart Surge? Yeah well, that doesn't make sense any way you flavor it. :smallwink:

Don't be afraid to reflavor stuff incessantly. I reflavored one of my player's warlocks shatter invocation. Instead of breaking it, he called up the power of the Great Old Ones and turned it into something unpleasant depending on the Old One. Nyarlathotep basically explodes it, Dagon turns it into something unpleasant and fishy, etc etc. If your sword turned into an eel and bit you, you'd be surprised too. Especially if it wasn't an eel so much as a double handful of tentacles with a half-dozen eyes and a screaming mouth. Mechanically identical. But much cooler.

[seedjar]

Wait...how can something be "mechanically" Anime? Anime is an art style.

That's like saying Angels are too "Painting-y" because there are lots of paintings of Angels.

The fallacy of your argument is that angels are too paintingy.
On a more serious note, as someone who's enjoyed anime for much longer than its contemporary popularity, I feel it's important to point out to other fans that this argument is almost entirely semantic. When people say "too anime," they're usually referring to some objectionable trait common to the few anime they're familiar with. Rarely is the issue that the production was done by a Japanese firm (nowadays meaning in Korea.) My mother was born in the time of Astro Boy and Speed Racer; to her, anime means a low frame rate and disproportionate facial features. As someone who is interested in the field at large, I can always provide counterexamples, but that doesn't change my mom's memory of those first few clunky translations.
~Joe

PS - "Faucet of Life" is the hook! I continued to read because of it. Mockers should be slapped; I got a good laugh out of it.

[Xefas]

And then, imagine what would happen if we gave spells Shonen names, like Seven Winds Annihilating Bomb of Devastation.

I tried doing that a while ago. The thread might still be out there if you search. I made a list of Wizard/Sorcerer spells with their names replaced by DBZ/Naruto technique names.

I would have been willing to do more, but no one seemed to care, and I was largely ignored.

EDIT: My favorite was replacing Scorching Burst with "Continuous Die Die Beam", a technique of...Gotenks, I think? I dunno; I didn't watch much of DBZ, so I had to find an online list.

[SamTheCleric]

Abjuration Style: Dispel Magic Jutsu!!!!

:p

[BRC]

You can reflavor pretty much anything, I have a character in my head, a wizard named "The Incrediable somthing" (he insists on the full title), and with him I refluff all his spells to be like magic tricks (magic missle? A flock of doves made out of pure force. Stuff like that)

[JaxGaret]

PS - "Faucet of Life" is the hook! I continued to read because of it. Mockers should be slapped; I got a good laugh out of it.

As did I. And I wasn't mocking it, it was simply an acknowledgment of the fact that I stopped reading after it. It seemed like it was going to end up being tl;dr on a topic that's already been beaten to a fine horse-y mist.

[Scintillatus]

It is true, 4e has a lot of rules built in to make it more fun, that don't necessarily make any sense whatsoever. Healing surges, for instance.

Trash. HP is an abstract, not the number of litres of blood currently in your body. Healing surges exist in real life too. As do mooks.

[Chronos]

And then, imagine what would happen if we gave spells Shonen names, like Seven Winds Annihilating Bomb of Devastation.If a wizard had a spell with that name, I wouldn't assume that it was anime; I'd assume that he'd been eating too many beans.


Trash. HP is an abstract, not the number of litres of blood currently in your body.Sure, everything in the game is an abstraction. It's just a question of what it's an abstraction of. And personally, I think of HP as an abstraction of how many holes you have in your body that aren't supposed to be there (which I think makes a lot more sense than "Oh, you only have three real HP, all the rest are a measure of your luck", or the like).

[Azerian Kelimon]

If a wizard had a spell with that name, I wouldn't assume that it was anime; I'd assume that he'd been eating too many beans.

Sure, everything in the game is an abstraction. It's just a question of what it's an abstraction of. And personally, I think of HP as an abstraction of how many holes you have in your body that aren't supposed to be there (which I think makes a lot more sense than "Oh, you only have three real HP, all the rest are a measure of your luck", or the like).

1) Not anime. Shonen. Trust me, the difference is massive.

2) If you want, I can dig the Word of God GOOD explanation on HP.

[SamTheCleric]

I posted this earlier, but it pertains to here.

4e PHB, pg 293.


Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand
up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing
blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit
points represent more than physical endurance. They
represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all
the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a
combat situation.

HP is more than holes in you....

[UserClone]

Yes. Mooks are everyone, in that if you miss with, say, a gunshot, they aren't hurt, and if you hit them with, say, a gunshot, they're pretty much friggin' dead. Hole bad. Make blood. What doesn't exist are the heroes, if you wanna get that kind of technical. Also, I read the whole argument, not just the faucet of life. Essentially, I saw a nit and felt the need to pick it is all. Like when I emailed my DM to tell him to order carb rangoons, then re-emailed him to say that I'd wanted crab rangoons, after all, because Atkins made me feel guilty about the carbs. Think of the carbs, people.

[averagejoe]

First of all, I've seen this argument and participated in threads such as these already, many, many times.

Secondly, it takes a single sentence: "Some people play with mutable flavor, others don't, and the two sides will never agree on this issue" to dash the OP's argument to bits.

Essentially, the OP is making the same mistake as the people they are decrying. They're both claiming that others are "doin' it wrong".

Except that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a problem doesn't exist where people say it does. Basically this was a reaction to people going off on tangents in other discussions with stuff like this. Maybe it doesn't fit the current forum environment, but that was during finals, so I couldn't be arsed to do it then.

[JaxGaret]

Yes. Mooks are everyone, in that if you miss with, say, a gunshot, they aren't hurt, and if you hit them with, say, a gunshot, they're pretty much friggin' dead. Hole bad. Make blood. What doesn't exist are the heroes, if you wanna get that kind of technical.

That's the good ol' "pretty much everyone is a low-level Commoner" judgment. 3e Human Commoners are 4e Human Rabble Minions.


Also, I read the whole argument, not just the faucet of life.

I went back and read it, and you can find my one-sentence response to it a few posts back.


Essentially, I saw a nit and felt the need to pick it is all. Like when I emailed my DM to tell him to order carb rangoons, then re-emailed him to say that I'd wanted crab rangoons, after all, because Atkins made me feel guilty about the carbs. Think of the carbs, people.

I want some carb rangoons. Sounds tasty.

[Vael Nir]

first time I play a ToB character, I *will* call my strikes. :D

[JaxGaret]

Except that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a problem doesn't exist where people say it does.

If a person doesn't play with mutable flavor, and they don't like the flavor of a class, who are you to tell them that they are wrong for not liking it?

I personally play with mutable flavor, and prefer it immensely to static flavor, but I won't judge other people for not using it.


Basically this was a reaction to people going off on tangents in other discussions with stuff like this. Maybe it doesn't fit the current forum environment, but that was during finals, so I couldn't be arsed to do it then.

It's possible that there were specific things posted in those threads that you had issues with, sure, but the general arguments that you are positing here basically boil down to "I'm right, they're wrong".

[Temp.]

first time I play a ToB character, I *will* call my strikes.You, and this recurring thread, have inspired me.

The next time I play a Fighter, I *will* call ToB strikes.

[UserClone]

It's kind of like the poster who was claming that this was the argument of people who didn't have a "legitimate" complaint about 4e - who are you to decide whose dissent is legitimate? I dislike black sheep because it's harder to dye their wool. Maybe you prefer black wool. It comes down to my preference for colorful sweaters and yours for black sweaters. So I guess what I'm saying is: opinions are subjective, and therefore can't be wrong. Even Elvis fans.:smallamused:

[Sir_Dr_D]

Abjuration Style: Dispel Magic Jutsu!!!!

:p

:smallbiggrin: That was funny.

[averagejoe]

If a person doesn't play with mutable flavor, and they don't like the flavor of a class, who are you to tell them that they are wrong for not liking it?

I personally play with mutable flavor, and prefer it immensely to static flavor, but I won't judge other people for not using it.

But I'm not talking about the way people play, I'm saying that the flavor of different classes is less specific than is generally believed. The flavor comes mostly from the players; when most people talk about "default" flavor they're actually talking about the flavor they concieve of when they think of "wizards" or "barbarians." You can play wizards in the traditional way or warblades in the wuxia way, but it's only barely supported by the written material anyways. In my example I never contradicted any of the wizard's flavor, so how could I be playing with "mutable flavor?"

In short, I'm not telling people how to play. I'm saying that, in general, people are wrong when they state that certain classes have explicit flavor attached to them.


It's possible that there were specific things posted in those threads that you had issues with, sure, but the general arguments that you are positing here basically boil down to "I'm right, they're wrong".

I assumed that's what most arguments boil down to.

[Chronos]

Yes. Mooks are everyone, in that if you miss with, say, a gunshot, they aren't hurt, and if you hit them with, say, a gunshot, they're pretty much friggin' dead. Hole bad. Make blood. What doesn't exist are the heroes, if you wanna get that kind of technical.No, people can and do survive multiple gunshot wounds. A single gunshot won't usually kill a person instantly, and won't even kill a person slowly with a modicum of first aid.

And the concept breaks down if HP damage isn't obvious in some way to the characters. Otherwise the fighter who's lost a bunch of HP looks like the world's biggest pansy when he asks the cleric to heal him. "Why do you need healing? That arrow only barely grazed you!".

[The Extinguisher]

EDIT: My favorite was replacing Scorching Burst with "Continuous Die Die Beam", a technique of...Gotenks, I think? I dunno; I didn't watch much of DBZ, so I had to find an online list.

That's it. I'm making a wizard :smallsmile:

[JaxGaret]

In short, I'm not telling people how to play. I'm saying that, in general, people are wrong when they state that certain classes have explicit flavor attached to them.

That's your opinion. There is plenty of flavor text that the other side can point at to attempt to counter your position.


I assumed that's what most arguments boil down to.

If you're dealing with opinions, not facts, only the bad ones boil down to that.

[Blanks]

My campaigns usually have the "mechanics don't change, but change fluff all you want". Though there limits (No, your full plate isn't a space suit!)

[Cuddly]

ToB is extremely anime in presentation, and heavily fluffed anime. It is difficult to execute the stuff in it anything but an anime fashion. "Yeah, I'm so good, my anime styled, anime named ability lets me walk on air. Hiyah!"

Magic is magic. Within 3x and earlier versions, magic is explicitly different than non-magical stuff. It's a mechanical fluff difference. Your obnoxiously anime wizard can do that because he's using magic. The Warblade does it because he's good with swords.

[Xefas]

ToB is extremely anime in presentation, and heavily fluffed anime. It is difficult to execute the stuff in it anything but an anime fashion.

It can't be fluffed Anime because "Anime" is a style of art, and not a genre. There are many genres of Anime, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with fighting at all. I think what you're referring to is "superhuman".

See also:

The ToB is totally anime. I mean, just look at the classes. One's dedicated to killing people by writing in a notebook, one pilots giant mecha, and one has zany romances.

[Cuddly]

It can't be fluffed Anime because "Anime" is a style of art, and not a genre. There are many genres of Anime, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with fighting at all. I think what you're referring to is "superhuman".

See also:

Terrific semantics argument :smallconfused:

[Xefas]

Terrific semantics argument :smallconfused:

How so?

You're saying that a book about people doing superhuman things without magic is "Anime".

I'm saying you're wrong and then presenting logic to back it up.

"Anime" does not mean doing superhuman things. Anime means a highly stylized, colorful art style. "Walking on Air" is not a highly stylized colorful art style, ergo it is not Anime.

Any meaningful response to this?

[Cuddly]

{Scrubbed}

[Attilargh]

The Warblade does it because he's good with swords.
...Er, the Warblade can't walk on air. You're confusing him with the Swordsage, a class so steeped in Ancient Mysteries and crap that he can't pet a dog for the fear of killing fifteen times over.

I had a response to people using "anime" as an adjective, but then I realized Chiyo-chan is frequently show flying with her pigtails and I got a bit distracted.

[Xefas]

{Scrubbed}
"Walking equals the color yellow" you say.

And "Plane Shift" I say.

[JaxGaret]

{Scrubbed}

"Walking equals the color yellow" you say.

And "Plane Shift" I say.

This is GitP.

Bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly.

[Cuddly]

{Scrubbed}

[Reaper_Monkey]

first time I play a ToB character, I *will* call my strikes. :D


You, and this recurring thread, have inspired me.

The next time I play a Fighter, I *will* call ToB strikes.

I think this perfectly outlines the OP concept. Yes you may say one thing is overly fluffed one way, or another is under-fluffed and narrow in its setup etc, however it all makes the blindest amount of difference when you see that it is possible to swap it about.

If you want your class to be the exact assumed fluff, then awesome, if you don't however, you're not forced to have it that way.

There is no right and wrong, just that the OP wanted to outline how they kept coming across people who felt that if they were playing x character class, they had to play it in y way. Which is not the case. That's it.

Oh, and I also agree, its a rule set, of mechanics, and you can play it how you like. Making everyone right and everyone wrong (to anyone who doesn't agree) and some people careless to it all, because as long as its balanced and you can put up with someone yelling oddities next to you while they play, it matters not if at the end of the day you still slay the big bad dragon =)

[Rutee]

The Warlock gets a lot of cool power names like that, like Thirteen Baleful Stars.

I feel compelled to point out that if the name is gramatically correct, it's a lot less likely to be an anime-styled attack name. Also, there's a lot more western-inspired names in there (See: LEaf on the Wind. Get Over Here)

[Xefas]

Silly goose, I'm not using the tight, narrow definition of anime you're using. Read about it on wikipedia or something.

You're comparing an action with an art style.

Here's what Wikipedia says about Anime:


Anime is an abbreviation of the English word "animation", originating in Japan through the roots of manga. Although the term is used in Japan to refer to animation in general, in English usage the term most popularly refers to material originating from Japan, a subset of animation.

Anime is traditionally hand drawn, but computer assisted techniques have become quite common in recent years. It is used in television series, films, video, video games, and internet-based releases, and represents all genres of fiction.

"Walking on Air" is not animation. "Walking on Air" is not animation from Japan.

In an Anime, oh I dunno...Death Note. No one walks on air, despite it being drawn in the Anime style. The style and the action have nothing to do with one another.

EDIT: And now I'm going to sleep because I have to get up in 4 hours.

[llamamushroom]

I have two questions - how do people know about the flavor of the 4e classes already? I can't even pick up my ordered copy for another week! And its right there behind the counter! I can see it every time I walk through the front door!

Also, what's the issue with 'anime' flavor for DnD? I personally think that DnD is so western that I welcome a chance to have 'anime'-styled stuff in there.

Side Note: There is nothing wrong with using 'anime' as the descriptor, as everyone knows what the subject is being compared to - in this case, superhuman anime. Saying that 'anime' is a bad descriptor is like saying that knife-weilding is a bad descriptor. Do you have any idea how many different kinds of knife there are?

By the way, just because it's a strawman doesn't change the validity of my point. Language is about communication, so as long as the idea is conveyed, its a legitimate usage. Not a 'correct' usage, but what would the world be like if everyone wa a pedant?

[The Necroswanso]

first time I play a ToB character, I *will* call my strikes. :D

When I first started using ToB classes, everytime I would inform my DM of which Manuever I was using the first thing that would pop into my head was: "Scatter and die! Scatter and die! Scatter and Die!"

I started saying it, my friends stopped playing Soul Calibur with me.

[Quietus]

Various unrelated semantics

You're taking it too literally. When people claim that "ToB is too anime", they aren't saying that their character's actions are drawn in a particular way. It's an expression being used as shorthand to say that the actions those characters are capable of are similar to what many anime characters are capable of doing, and are presented in a similar way, such as having long, drawn out names that seem like they should be called out while performing the strike.

Drop this line of argument, please. It's ridiculous, and not helpful as far as this topic goes in the least.

[Xuincherguixe]

See, I actually agree with Xefas. People calling things Anime in addition to being inaccurate, it's also kind of disrespectful to the fans, and the writers. And it's actually kind of infuriating to me. But, in the interest of civilty and not fanning the flames anymore I'll leave it at that.

The reasons why "Too Anime" isn't a good descriptor have been already been brought up. (As have ones that imply it's valid, but I don't buy those :P)

[Tsotha-lanti]

But I'm not talking about changing the flavor of anything. I'm talking about a personal decision made by each player to play the sort of character they want to. In nothing I said did I change any flavor at all.

You're crazy, man! CRAZY!

It's not like the 3.5 PHB explicitly suggests changing the names of feats and skills - game mechanics! - to match your character's style and personality--

... oh...


"mumorpergur!"

Yes, we've all watched Zero Punctuation, now can we get over it and bury this meme too?

[nagora]

No, people can and do survive multiple gunshot wounds. A single gunshot won't usually kill a person instantly, and won't even kill a person slowly with a modicum of first aid.
That's true today. Up until the development of penicillin it was not true. Many deaths in the American Civil War were self inflicted headshots by men who had suffered a single wound to the stomach and knew that their only other option was a long painful death.

[Xefas]

You're taking it too literally. When people claim that "ToB is too anime", they aren't saying that their character's actions are drawn in a particular way. It's an expression being used as shorthand to say that the actions those characters are capable of are similar to what many anime characters are capable of doing, and are presented in a similar way, such as having long, drawn out names that seem like they should be called out while performing the strike.

But many Anime characters don't do that. I would say that the majority don't at all. You're making a sweeping generalization about a very small genre of Anime and applying it to the entire art style, which is at the very least shortsighted and/or misinformed.

So I'm informing you now. That "shorthand" is wrong, please stop using it. You don't have to like the Tome of Battle, but you should at least hate it correctly.

[Blanks]

Give us another way of saying "Styles that remind most people of the artform used in some anime/shonen, including a specific flavor both to the names as well as ability of the effect of certain characters". 2 Words max, otherwise it won't catch on.

Until then we use:
A.N.I.M.E. - A-long Non-important Issue Made Easy
(Sorry for the N, couldn't come up with something better on the spot :smallbiggrin: )

[Johnny Blade]

But I'm not talking about changing the flavor of anything. I'm talking about a personal decision made by each player to play the sort of character they want to. In nothing I said did I change any flavor at all.

Aah, okay, seems like I misunderstood that.

So, I assume you were talking about the creative effort of portraying your character and his actions during a D&D session.

Well, if so, I more or less stand by my view: you can do as you please, of course, but the base will mostly, if not always, be a specific flavor that is implied by the authors of the classes/feats/spells in question, especially since they are often part of a bigger work with a more or less coherent general style.

Also, you don't play role-playing games alone. Thus, you'll have to deal with the other players' conceptions and expectations, especially as they probably had no part in designing your character. Actually, you showed that in your example.

Again, I'm far from saying it's impossible. It's just that you are not absolutely free from the flavor that's implied by the rulebooks.



If a person doesn't play with mutable flavor, and they don't like the flavor of a class, who are you to tell them that they are wrong for not liking it?

I personally play with mutable flavor, and prefer it immensely to static flavor, but I won't judge other people for not using it.
But what's important is that every person has the option to deviate from what is presented and implied in the rulebooks.
So while it is wrong to judge people by their preferred style of playing, it's right that the rulebooks are just a starting point. How far you (can) change their flavor is another issue.

[The Necroswanso]

I keep going through the ToB, and I can't see where anyone can see it as Anime-esque. Is it that art? It's dark, gritty, almost like a dystopic retrospective really. The combat styles and manuvers? They remind me more of Soul Calibur and western mythologies as well as a hinting of Japanese mythology, as seen in Samurai Shodown. Not over the top like in Ninja Scroll or whatever randomly overly violent anime you choose.
The ninja class, is nothing more than a prettied up rogue.
The Bloodstorm Blade, is Captain America.

But you know, that's just whatI get out of it. What you get out of it, is totally cool. IT'S A FANTASY GAME AFTERALL.

[UserClone]

Maybe it's the sidebar on page 6 which specifically mentions anime as an influence, in addition to Hong Kong action movies and popular video games.

[The Necroswanso]

Quite possibley :P.
*Commits Seipuku*

[Chronos]

Give us another way of saying "Styles that remind most people of the artform used in some anime/shonen, including a specific flavor both to the names as well as ability of the effect of certain characters". 2 Words max, otherwise it won't catch on.Would "wuxia" or "wire-fu" work? I don't know the precise definitions of either, but from what I've picked up from popular culture, they seem to carry approximately the meaning folks are looking for here.

[Blanks]

Would "wuxia" or "wire-fu" work? I don't know the precise definitions of either, but from what I've picked up from popular culture, they seem to carry approximately the meaning folks are looking for here. Sure, now all we need to do is educate the rest of the playground :smallsmile:

[Rutee]

Wirefu isn't terribly accurate in depicting the ToB. It's most excellent for Swordsages, but Crusaders and Warblades aren't really very Wuxia.

[Agrippa]

My current campaign is going to involve a paladin womanizer

So, basicaly Roland from the Legends of Charlemagne. Why not, as long as he treats the women he sleeps with as human beings and gives them complete and utter respect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChivalrousPervert). Maybe even hold intelligent conversations with them the morning after.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't insult each other or fiddle with others' quotes. Please do make sure that your comments conform to our Forum Rules.

[Morandir Nailo]

Wirefu isn't terribly accurate in depicting the ToB. It's most excellent for Swordsages, but Crusaders and Warblades aren't really very Wuxia.

What's really funny about this is that as originally written, this was quite obvious in ToB. I remember reading that the devs who wrote ToB have said that the Crusader and the Warblade are supposed to represent western-style fighting systems, while the Swordsage is supposed to have an Asian flair; it was in editing that any "wire-fu" elements got added to the other two classes (with the kung-fu sounding maneuver names and such).

Mor

[Kami2awa]

Well, I almost agree.

However, when an entire system is presented in a way that evokes the image of it being 'anime' somehow (I don't want to discuss what that actually means, by the way. Let's just assume it's totally unsexy.), then that's canon and every player has to deal with it.
[/SIZE]

Why is it? Some of the best fantasy and sci-fi is in anime format.

[Johnny Blade]

Why is it? Some of the best fantasy and sci-fi is in anime format.
Well, I don't know. But it's at least as bad as World of Warcraft.

Not that I know more than maybe 8 anime series or have ever played WoW.

But it's bad. Or so I'm told.


(Really, I wasn't all that serious about that. And the antipathy towards 'anime' may have a lot to do with the stereotypical person that watches it anyway.)

[Scintillatus]

Most of Japan and a huge chunk of America? :B

Really I LIKE the stronger heroic fantasy flavour for classes other than the Wizard - it makes me much more enthusiastic about playing and has the added bonus of supporting a wider range of inspirations, not just from Wuxia or Anime, but also Greek myth, Irish myth, Norse myth, etc.

[Blanks]

So, basicaly Roland from the Legends of Charlemagne. Why not, as long as he treats the women he sleeps with as human beings and gives them complete and utter respect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChivalrousPervert). Maybe even hold intelligent conversations with them the morning after.

No intelligent discussions, but very honest:
"want a good time tonight?"
He will leave them after the night thinking "well, I wished he would stay, but at least I got to know him". He will also be an incurable drunk :smallbiggrin:

[Eldritch_Ent]

One side says that the fluff isn't set in stone, (And this I agree with).
Another says that they don't have to change the fluff, (And you can't make me!)
And while the second statement is technically correct, it still strikes me as odd that someone could complain so vehemently about something, then refuse to do a single thing about it because they don't "have to". "It's too hot in here!" "Why don't you adjust the thermostat? Or take off your sweater?" "Because I don't have to!"... Or something. I don't know.

... In the end, I guess some people just like having something to complain about, I guess. (Not that anyone here is like that or anything.) I've had some people like that in groups... For example, I once had a fellow player complain my monk was a Gregorian Monk, rather than an Eastern Monk, and tried to get the GM to force me to change it... It didn't work, because my GM was awesome, but still.

In the end, what I'm trying to say is- "You don't have to change the fluff if you don't want to, but if you refuse to and then complain about the standard fluff, I think you're being silly."

[Roderick_BR]

Y'know, I'd love to see what would happen if we turned all maneuvers into things like, I dunno, Spinning strike or Deadly Hit. Everyone would complain about them being too bland.

And then, imagine what would happen if we gave spells Shonen names, like Seven Winds Annihilating Bomb of Devastation.
Or Bigby's Crushing Hand or Mordenkainer's Faithful Hounds? :smalltongue:
Agreed. People waste too much time complaining about nothing.