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DareTheRogue
2008-05-30, 05:30 PM
So I was asked to build a Dwarven Wizard, why Dwarven, I do not know. But with no restrictions on how or what to do with him I decided on a Dwarven Abjurer. A bit odd for me seeing as how I love evokers... But I went and ran with the idea. So barring Illusion and Necromancy I pulled out all my books and started. I found wonderful things that just made me think oh how fun, and then realized I could try out a PrC I had never tried, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil... So why not wrap this guy up with it. Just putting together the level progression in a way that with a 18 Int all prereques for PrCs are filled and I get what I want from them I worked. Master Specialist helps a lot as it helps to fill the Feat prereques for IotSV. Runesmith because it is a full progression and I still can not imagine after many years of DnD that my Dwarf does not have armor on. Abjurant Champion because those 2 levels let you extend and quicken ALL your abjuration spells at no cost! and then the final touch 7 levels of IotSV. I want to know what you Wizardy PPL think. I know the penalties for xp at the end may add up but I must say he looks fun, but probably would never finish the IotSV levels in a game.
1 other thing, does anyone know if I can find a PrC like the Abjurant Champ for any other schools of magic?

1 Wizard 1
2 Fighter 1
3 Wizard 2
4 Master Specialist 1
5 Master Specialist 2
6 Runesmith 1
7 Master Specialist 3
8 Runesmith 2
9 Runesmith 3
10 Abjurant Champion 1
11 Abjurant Champion 2
12 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
13 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
14 Runesmith 4
15 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3
16 Runesmith 5
17 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4
18 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5
19 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6
20 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

tyckspoon
2008-05-30, 05:43 PM
It's pretty damn solid. Possibly even broken once you get into Initiate levels, especially if your group otherwise doesn't optimize very much. The only way I can think of to functionally improve it would be to find some other gishing PrC you could easily dip for the benefits you're taking from Fighter without dropping a casting level.. I don't think any exist, tho. You won't be taking any XP penalties by RAW, by the way- Prestige classes don't count, your two base classes are kept within one level of each other, and one of them is your favored class so it doesn't count anyway.

Edit: Although Master Specialist requires 2nd level spells, doesn't it? You may be short a Wizard level.

Glyphic
2008-05-30, 05:49 PM
Just as a note, Abby Champ likely means that you can cast Abjuration spells of 1/2 (rounded up) your Abjurant champion levels.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 05:50 PM
Don't you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells for master specialist?

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 06:07 PM
A few notes:
The Quicken Abjuration ability only applies to abjurations of 1/2 your Abjurant Champion class level or lower (rounded up). So with only two levels of Abjurant Champion, you only get a free Quicken Spell on 1st level Abjurations - which basically means Shield is about the only spell you'll regularly use with it, although it also applies to Resistance, Alarm, Endure Elements, Hold Portal, and the Protection from [Alignment] spells.

The Extend works on all of them, though.

Also, you have to be able to cast 2nd level spells for Master Specialist. The build is illegal as listed without some form of early spell level trick.

Let's see... any way to skip the lost caster level?

Wizard(Abjurer)-1 - Scribe Scroll (B), Spell Focus(Abjuration)
Wizard(Abjurer)-2
Wizard(Abjurer)-3 - Armor Proficiency(Light)
Master Specialist-1 - Skill Focus(Spellcraft) (b)
Master Specialist-2
Master Specialist-3 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) (B), Armor Proficiency(Medium)
Master Specialist-4
Master Specialist-5
Master Specialist-6 - Armor Proficiency(Heavy)
Runesmith-1
Runesmith-2
Runesmith-3 - Martial Weapon Proficiency(Whatever)
Abjurant Champion-1
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-1
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-2
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-3
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-4
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-5
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-6
Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil-7

... so yes, but you end up trading out some Runesmith and Abjurant Champion levels for Master Specialist levels (or trading out Intiatiate of the Seven-fold Veil levels for Master Specialist levels). Hmm.

ocato
2008-05-30, 06:59 PM
Don't let anyone tell you that you have to bar evocation to be good.

Be your own wizard. I support this build. Go, live your crazy dreams and fie on anyone who says otherwise.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 07:08 PM
Don't let anyone tell you that you have to bar evocation to be good.

Be your own wizard. I support this build. Go, live your crazy dreams and fie on anyone who says otherwise.

Like any school, Evocation has some nice spells - Wind Wall, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Contingency, and Forcecage (if you don't mind the material component), especially.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-30, 07:11 PM
Like any school, Evocation has some nice spells - Wind Wall, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Contingency, and Forcecage (if you don't mind the material component), especially.

The whole force line actually.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 07:15 PM
The whole force line actually.
Eh, Interposing Hand, Mage's Sword, and Floating Disk I can do without very easily.

But yes, in general, Force spells are rather nice, and most of them are Evocation.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-30, 07:17 PM
I'm always a fan of the prismatic line... I just like random effects, I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-05-30, 07:30 PM
You may want to simplify it and emphasize the Abjurer-size as follows:
Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 6/IoTSV 7/Master Specialist 4

It's a beautiful build in that it finishes both Prestiges it takes (thus getting also all the Master Specialist-goodies, making you something of a Dispel Expert and a rather durable one at that) and has nice synergies along the way. Abjurant Champion is more suitable for Gishes and Elven Wizards, since then you don't need to burn a feat/level to enter it.

Runesmith, while Dwarven, doesn't really seem to give you too many relevant abilities as far as Abjuration go, so I think the simpliest build would be the best for this particular scenario. The best part is that you get to finish Initiate already on level 16, so you may actually see the capstone ability in use (Kaleidoscopic Doom is just darn impressive when it goes off on some buffed character - and that guy is probably dead).


And no, D&D design isn't cyclical so there aren't cycles of prestige classes, feats or similar things for all different classes/schools of magic/etc. Abjurant Champion is quite unique and is really more of a fighter/mage specialist than an Abjuration-specialist.

Granulator
2008-05-30, 07:44 PM
Eh, Interposing Hand, Mage's Sword, and Floating Disk I can do without very easily.

But yes, in general, Force spells are rather nice, and most of them are Evocation.

Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Meteor Swarm aren't so bad either.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 08:13 PM
Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Meteor Swarm aren't so bad either.
If you're doing direct damage, you're in direct competition with the Fighter for his job. He can do his job - you've got better things to do - like Baelful Polymorph, Glitterdust, and Wail of the Banshee.

Eurus
2008-05-30, 08:24 PM
Bah. Sometimes you don't care about what's the most effective; sometimes you just want to sling bolts of skull-cracking power from your fingertips and scorch kobolds. I whole-heartedly support blasting, even if for nothing more than pure aesthetics. ^_^

Granulator
2008-05-30, 08:46 PM
Blasting isn't effective? I'd say it's very effective in certain situations, such as when that demonic horde is getting a wee bit close. The fighter can take on the Pit Fiend on the other side of this battlefield, that one's immune to fire anyway.

Of course, Wail of the Banshee, as just pointed out, might be used in that situation instead (Possibly with more effectiveness)... but it could just as well be a horde of undead.

But this comes from the most trigger-happy mage I've ever seen scouring for more six-sided dice.

Eldariel
2008-05-30, 09:06 PM
Basically, blasting isn't just that good as you're doing the same job everyone else does, while you can do things nobody else has the option to. Blasting is degrading yourself. Of course you'll want few damage spells around (be creative though - don't always pick that Fireball) to solve some problems, but mostly you can disable the opponents with much less resources and the rest of the party can go around Coup de Gracing them. Blasting is almost always overexpending resources. The few blasty spells could be Orb of Force or Acid Fog or some such. Things that work and are effective.

Ned the undead
2008-05-30, 09:35 PM
Take the Precocius Apprentince feat for early access to a 2nd lvl spell.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 09:41 PM
Take the Precocius Apprentince feat for early access to a 2nd lvl spell.
That could make the build work, yes. Precocious Apprentice at 1st, Scribe Scroll as a Wizard bonus feat, Spell Focus at 3rd, Combat Casting whenever. Rest is handled by bonus feats from his class levels.

Mind you - that's a three-book build he's looking at (Complete Mage, Complete Arcane, and Races of Stone) and he's only taking a single PrC to it's conclusion, which tends towards cheese.

Temp.
2008-05-30, 10:13 PM
That could make the build work, yes. Precocious Apprentice at 1st, Scribe Scroll as a Wizard bonus feat, Spell Focus at 3rd, Combat Casting whenever. Rest is handled by bonus feats from his class levels.Characters gain levels before feats. That means this doesn't work unless he's getting another feat somewhere at levels 1 or 2.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-30, 10:43 PM
As an aside, I realize that damage may step on the fighter's toes - but doing double the damage is never a bad thing. If he does the bad guy a bazillion damage, then you finish the guy with a Finger of Death, the Fighter is completely useless, and you're being totally redundant. More damage is actually good quite.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-30, 11:09 PM
Characters gain levels before feats. That means this doesn't work unless he's getting another feat somewhere at levels 1 or 2.
Check again. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites)

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.(Emphasis added)

DareTheRogue
2008-05-30, 11:17 PM
feats
1 precocious apprentice
3 spell focus abjuration
6 combat casting
no more needed. 3 levels of master spec give me needed for IotSV. I don't mind 1 caster level lost it is 1 caster level. And the build finishes 2 PrCs the runesmith goes to 5 and IotSV goes to 7. For quickened shield I will go with 2 abuchamp levels. All the PrCs have full spellcasting and a fighter level won't really hurt I am not a Batman person so oh well shame on me for having some fun, I just specialized in a school I didn't think I ever would.
thank you for the ideas and comments. I have looked it over and over and like it even more now.

DareTheRogue
2008-05-31, 08:20 AM
Ok I got the whole feat progression down now. And because of the Dwarven thing playing into my weakness for just being fun, and the fact the person telling me what I need to make is stupid.
1 Scribe Scroll [Wizard Bonus], Precocious Apprentice
2 Improved Toughness [Fighter Bonus]
3 Spell Focus (Abjuration)
4 Skill Focus (Spellcraft) [Master Sec Bonus]
6 Combat Casting
7 Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) [Master Spec Bonus]
9 Item Familiar (anyone seen this? 10% more exp. Unearthed Arcana p170)
12 Smiting Spell
15 Craft Wondrous Item
18 Craft Arms and Armor

So other then I just realized that in a way this Dwarven Wizard is just going to be walking around in Fullplate casting quickened Shield that gives a +6 shield bonus and tossing out some fun effects he will just be a new rollplaying experience. Item Familiar from UA is something I have not seen and good for the Item Creation feats I guess, but I really would like to get a Baccob's Book that talks to me....

Gorbash
2008-05-31, 11:05 AM
A bit odd for me seeing as how I love evokers

Burn the heretic! :smallbiggrin:


Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and Meteor Swarm aren't so bad either.

Fireball, which at 10th lvl does on average 35 damage on a successful save...? And let's face it, that save is going to be 19 or 20 at best, even creatures with mediocre saves like +7 will be passing that 50% of the time... Not to mention a bunch of creatures you'll be facing at that point are resistant to fire...

Enter Logic Ninja + Batman in google and let your eyes see the truth!

Eurus
2008-05-31, 12:23 PM
Ah. But you're forgetting an important part of the equation. Namely, the appeal of SHOOTING FLAMING DEATH RAYS OUT OF YOUR EYES. Okay, so that technically requires Occular Spell, but even if you're just blowing zombies away with Lightning Bolts, it's still cool. Sure, a Solid Fog might be more effective, but dang it, it's just not the same!

Jack_Simth
2008-05-31, 02:05 PM
Fireball, which at 10th lvl does on average 35 damage on a successful save...?
That's on a *failed* save. On a successful save, the average is 17.5 (ignoring abilities such as Evasion and fire resistance).

If you're operating without support, you do need to have something that does actual damage available (at least, up until the point where you're using the ones that are permanently incapacitating, rather than temporarily so) simply due to the little issue that otherwise they'll get better. Now, whether that's a scythe for the Coup De Grace, a light crossbow, or the Elemental Summoning Reserve Feat, you need something capable of doing actual damage... unless you're in a reasonably balanced party, that is.