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View Full Version : 4e Magic Items: Heroic/Paragon/Epic Pricing



JaxGaret
2008-05-30, 07:40 PM
Take the Shadowfell Gloves on page 247 as an example.

Is it just me, or does it seem like the Epic version of the item is way too expensive compared to the Paragon version, and the same for the Paragon vs. the Heroic?

AFAICT you're spending a million gold for an extra 1d6 dmg per day for the Epic item. Or an extra 43,000 gp for the same thing on the Paragon vs. the Heroic version.

It definitely seems as if Epic tier items (and possibly, to a lesser extent, Paragon tier items) include a hefty markup tag of their own, even if it isn't warranted.

Fizban
2008-05-30, 09:32 PM
Everything includes a hefty markup tag. They priced it so that an item 5 levels higher costs 5 times as much, so 10 levels higher is going to be 25 times as much. In case you're wondering, characters created above 1st are suggested to have 1 item one level higher, one at, and one 1 below their own level, with enough money for another one at their level.

And you can only sell items for 1/5 their standard price, so the DM is pretty much forced to hand out exactly what the PC's need unless he wants to gimp them.

And and, the items are pretty...dull. Like you said, flat bonuses and an extra die or two of damage on a crit. And you can't get fly for more than one round at a time. And you can only use so many items per day (seriously, if you use daily item A, you aren't allowed to use any other daily items for the rest of the day, or until you've completed two encounters).

Needless to say, I'm dissatisfied with the new item system. And everything else. As they're saying in other threads, it's a new game, not a new version of the old.

Edea
2008-05-30, 09:37 PM
Yep, that was also completely intentional. Like I said before, I love my characters to be dripping with magic items, but that was definitely both a game balance and game elegance issue, both things that are at the very top of 4E's "things to 'fix' " list. Most likely we will just have to see how the game plays with them in this new form (or, of course, not convert). I'm not sure yet, haven't played it.

Morandir Nailo
2008-05-30, 09:57 PM
Meh, this I don't care about so much. I've always been a big fan of characters who can survive with as few items as possible. I'm a big fan of Conan-style Sword & Sorcery, where items mean jack. I'm actually happy about the fact that I won't have to spend forever buying magic items when I make a high-level character. Often in 3.5 that takes more time than making the character itself, and the higher the level, the worse it is. Besides, this is just the beginning. I have no doubt that soon we'll see splatbooks dripping with crazy new items, just like before.

As for gimping players by not giving them what they need, you can always use the suggestion from the DMG of making the Disenchant ritual free, and having your characters drain unwanted items of magic so they can make their own at no (or reduced) cost. This is what I'll be doing, that way I can give my NPCs whatever magic items are appropriate for them, and my players can just make whatever they need.

This brings up another point which makes me extremely happy: the fact that my Fighter can forge his own enchanted weapon, without the Wizard's help. Just like Bruenor Battlehammer (who is never described in the books as having any magical ability, IIRC) made Aegis-fang, I'll be able to make some nifty signature weapon or item for my character. What it does isn't really as important as the fact that I made it, rather than paying someone else to do it. Much more satisfying that way. It'll cost me a few feats but since you get more in this edition I'm fine with that.

Mor

Kompera
2008-05-31, 07:24 PM
This brings up another point which makes me extremely happy: the fact that my Fighter can forge his own enchanted weapon, without the Wizard's help. Just like Bruenor Battlehammer (who is never described in the books as having any magical ability, IIRC) made Aegis-fang, I'll be able to make some nifty signature weapon or item for my character. What it does isn't really as important as the fact that I made it, rather than paying someone else to do it. Much more satisfying that way. It'll cost me a few feats but since you get more in this edition I'm fine with that.
I'm a big fan of this also. After all, what better supports the immersion in a fantasy setting:
Barbarian "I take my two small metal +1 shields, valued in the DMG at 1000 golds each, to MagicMart, and trade them for a +1 Sword, valued in the DMG at 2000 golds."
-or-
Barbarian "As was passed down by in the stories of my tribe, I build a longhouse. In this longhouse I set a large flat stone to be used as an anvil. Building a fire, I begin to meditate upon my totem creature for 24 hours, fasting and praying. Once I am purified by this ritual, I hammer the shields into a sword."

Others may prefer MagicMart, but I prefer a bit of roleplay in my RPGs, especially when the outcome is the same.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 07:29 PM
I'm a big fan of Conan-style Sword & Sorcery, where items mean jack.


Not as big as you think, because Conan is LOADED in magic items. Seriously. He's the archetypical Fighter, who is really skilled, but manages to beat impressive foes because he had magic items enhancing his capabilities.

Fizban
2008-05-31, 07:42 PM
As for gimping players by not giving them what they need, you can always use the suggestion from the DMG of making the Disenchant ritual free, and having your characters drain unwanted items of magic so they can make their own at no (or reduced) cost. This is what I'll be doing, that way I can give my NPCs whatever magic items are appropriate for them, and my players can just make whatever they need.

This brings up another point which makes me extremely happy: the fact that my Fighter can forge his own enchanted weapon, without the Wizard's help. Just like Bruenor Battlehammer (who is never described in the books as having any magical ability, IIRC) made Aegis-fang, I'll be able to make some nifty signature weapon or item for my character. What it does isn't really as important as the fact that I made it, rather than paying someone else to do it. Much more satisfying that way. It'll cost me a few feats but since you get more in this edition I'm fine with that.

Mor
Except, the disenchanting ritual renders it down to 1/5 the starting price worth of magic dust. If you disenchant something, you can only make an item of 5 levels lower in power. Now, if you meant that you'll let them keep more (say 50%) of the original item's price, then yea that'll help. Otherwise, if you throw enough items at them to craft their own level apropriate gear, they'll just keep them and be equipped 5 levels higher. Not to mention the whole: "items are not generally bought and sold, so characters desparate to sell something can get at most 1/5 of the base price", yet they must pay full price if they want to buy something. It made a little more sense with the magic pawnshop of 3e, but if by definition no one sells them, then you shouldn't be able to buy them. It seems more like offering full price just guarantees the sale, since no one can ever get more than 1/5 normal, they'd jump if some moron offered full price. Yes I know arguing about magic item economy is ridiculous.
As for anyone crafting anything, I can live with that. What kind of annoys me is that it takes only 1 hour to craft anything, at any time. You could actually sit down in the middle of the day, after finding out what you've got to fight later that day, and craft the item on the spot. No weeks of meditation, no fancy spiritual buildings, the most powerful of items are crafted in the same amount of time it takes to develop some pictures.

Edit: V: yes, there are. There's a crafting ritual to go with the disenchantning ritual. It allows anyone to create any item in 1 hour, as long as they have the "required materials", which is pretty much a bag of magic dust from the disenchanting ritual.

skywalker
2008-05-31, 07:48 PM
Word on the street is there are no rules for PCs creating magic items?

It would kinda render the disenchant discussion moot...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-31, 07:50 PM
Word on the street is there are no rules for PCs creating magic items?

It would kinda render the disenchant discussion moot...

Word on the street donnae know jack, sonny, 'cause Enchant item let's you make items of up to your level.

Aquillion
2008-05-31, 11:40 PM
More than that, Enchant Item lets you create any magical item at no more cost than spending 8 hours and paying a materials cost exactly equal to the item's cost.

Which makes you wonder how anyone ever makes a profit on those things...

You probably saw someone noting that there are no guidelines for custom magic items so far, which is true. I'm sure we'll get them eventually, though.

Morandir Nailo
2008-06-01, 12:14 AM
Not as big as you think, because Conan is LOADED in magic items. Seriously. He's the archetypical Fighter, who is really skilled, but manages to beat impressive foes because he had magic items enhancing his capabilities.

Huh?? Sorry, but in no Conan story I've ever read (and I own all of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories) did Conan ever, ever run around dripping in magic items. He's quite the opposite, having a huge distrust of sorcery in general (with good reason!). Most of the time the only thing Conan has is a weapon, and maybe some basic armor.

Fizban: I'm aware of how the Disenchant ritual works. But you can disenchant multiple items, and store the Residuum up until you have enough to make the item you want. So instead of giving them something 5 levels too high, I just throw 5 items of their level at them, and let them drain them and make something they actually want. However, right now items are so bland that it doesn't matter what I give the NPCs, the PCs will want it; so the "PCs will only see treasure they want" idea is a moot point - they'll want everything they see, because it's all the same. When more items come out though, I'll be able to give my NPCs items that fit them, without worrying about whether or not my PCs can/want to use it.

Mor