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JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 01:35 AM
Bait made a good point in the 4e Good or Bad thread, that an attack on a Minion that deals them 2 damage on a hit will kill them, but an attack that deals 3 damage on a miss doesn't.

Now, some of you may feel like this sort of thing doesn't matter. That's fine. This houserule suggestion isn't for you.

My suggestion for a houserule is that any time you make a miss-deals-damage attack on a Minion and miss, something should happen, instead of the nothing that the rules state.

My suggestion is thus: give them some condition instead of killing them. Looking at the list of conditions in the PHB, a simple one is to knock the Minion Prone.

So, instead of the blow damaging/killing the Minion, it just knocks them about a bit.

You can feel free to try other conditions; Dazed or Stunned works as well.

Farmer42
2008-05-31, 01:44 AM
Prone actually works fairly well. Just say that the hit knocked him slightly off balance and caused him to trip. Toss in a d20 roll and a chuckle beforehand, and the players will have no idea what the frak is going on.

Skyserpent
2008-05-31, 01:48 AM
Bait made a good point in the 4e Good or Bad thread, that an attack on a Minion that deals them 2 damage on a hit will kill them, but an attack that deals 3 damage on a miss doesn't.

Now, some of you may feel like this sort of thing doesn't matter. That's fine. This houserule suggestion isn't for you.

My suggestion for a houserule is that any time you make a miss-deals-damage attack on a Minion and miss, something should happen, instead of the nothing that the rules state.

My suggestion is thus: give them some condition instead of killing them. Looking at the list of conditions in the PHB, a simple one is to knock the Minion Prone.

So, instead of the blow damaging/killing the Minion, it just knocks them about a bit.

You can feel free to try other conditions; Dazed or Stunned works as well.

I like that.

I may have them be bloodied or something, maybe stunned. I really do enjoy that idea. Thanks! I think I'll use this!

Daracaex
2008-05-31, 01:51 AM
That makes sense. I'd use it as long as it doesn't have a major effect on combat balance, which I doubt. I think which condition applies would be up to the DM's judgment on how the power is supposed to work. One might knock him down while another justs stuns them.

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 01:59 AM
Thanks for the positive responses so far! :smallsmile: Glad I could be of service.

I like the idea of using different conditions for different situations; sometimes it could Daze them, sometimes it knocks them Prone, sometimes it'll Weaken them, depending on the Power used and the creature type. Up the the DM's discretion, of course.

Making them Bloodied is another option, though I think that might complicate things a bit too much, and also being Bloodied doesn't really have much effect on a character with 1 HP, no?

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-31, 02:05 AM
I was going to suggest bloodied, since there are many things that can exploit that. Knocking them prone is definitely an option though.

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 02:08 AM
I was going to suggest bloodied, since there are many things that can exploit that.

There are many things that can exploit the Bloodied condition, yes, but do any of them matter against an enemy with 1 HP? I don't recall off the top of my head, and too lazy to check the whole PHB right now.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-31, 08:33 AM
Tieflings get +1 to hit. So that gives a Tiefling ally now the abilit to better hit the creature.

Rutee
2008-05-31, 09:39 AM
Bloodied seems more likely to buff the enemy then hurt it.

I'd rule that anyone affected by miss on damage from a Single Target technique is prone, but from an area effect one, only half the targets are prone, or so. It makes the AoE just a wee bit too good. Still, I like the feel of it overall.

UserClone
2008-05-31, 09:48 AM
I had one also, in My Issue With Your Issue With 4E Swarms.

Seems to me that a simple houserule of "vs swarms of Fine creatures, Bludgeoning deals the normal 1/2 damage, slashing 1/4, and piercing is ineffective" would suffice to keep it realistic, if that's what you're into.
Also, I like yours, but it seems to me that knocking them prone gives them another chance to be one-shotted in a given round, as when they get up or crawl away, you'd AoO them to death, or someone adjacent would. Maybe just a simple -1 to attacks/AC? You could call it "distracted," even. Call me old-fashioned.

RoboticSheeple
2008-05-31, 09:59 AM
Why not just tell the PCs it's a minion so that they don't ever use that power on one?

UserClone
2008-05-31, 10:14 AM
Well, that would be metagaming, for one, which many groups don't appreciate, and secondly, it's not the whole power that we dislike, only its complete ineffectiveness on a minion. I, for one, plan to describe damage if the power calls for it, even if the enemy is a minion, so that my players won't know. I think that is the original intention.

Rutee
2008-05-31, 10:55 AM
I love how people keep saying "It's metagaming" when from the moment you sit down at the table, you start metagaming. Period.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-31, 10:56 AM
Why not just tell the PCs it's a minion so that they don't ever use that power on one?

You should tell the PC's that they are fighting minions. One og the big points of minions is that you don't khave to roll damage dice which greatly stream lines the game.

I see minions as soldiers, monsters or creatures, who do to training have increased their attack and defesne scores, but since they have not gone out adventuring they do not gain extra hitpoints. So a starting level soldier human I see having +1 to attack and defense, and about 10 hps. A tenth level elite soldier would still have 10 hps, but +5 to attack and defense.

A fighter with a long sword by 4th level would on averaga do 10 points of damge, which means killing those soldiers in one shot is very resonable.

I like the idea of the minion rules. It fills up a big void in the D&D world. I just don't like the way the rules are worded. But by altering them slighty, adn looking at them slightly different you can get them to work.

As DM I would use them as follows. When fighting a large number of low hp, but skilled opponents you want to stream line the combat. To do that you avoid damge roles, and assume your weapon always does half damge. If you hit the opponent you kill it, and if you miss it you don't. (the +3 damage on a miss wouldn't be enough to kill it.) If the creature you are fighting can not reasobly be brought down in one hit, it shouldn't be considered a minion. If your characters attack the minion with sub optimal weapons, such as a fighter with a fist, it is easy to make sub rulings. You can say in this case that it would take 2 hits to bring a minion down instead of one. For ease of book keeping you don't need to even keep track of which minons were hit. Just any two hits against the minion horde will kill one of them. I would do the same with cleaves. Every three succesfull cleaves, would kill one minion.

Fighting minions then, would be considered going into 'fast combat mode', an alternate system with less dicing and record keeping.But there is still a concept of how many hp the minions really have, and your powers would still have the appropriate effects.

UserClone
2008-05-31, 11:10 AM
I love how people keep saying "It's metagaming" when from the moment you sit down at the table, you start metagaming. Period.

I reject your absolute statement. It is based solely on your first- and secondhand experience. You may not believe me, but it is possible to forget it's a game and care about the story, specifically the characters. I have, and it is wonderful.

Rutee
2008-05-31, 11:32 AM
I reject your absolute statement. It is based solely on your first- and secondhand experience. You may not believe me, but it is possible to forget it's a game and care about the story, specifically the characters. I have, and it is wonderful.

How's that not metagaming? Metagaming is as simple as one's desires reflecting in their play.. which it pretty much always will. This isn't about "Not playing in character", by default. Meta-intentions are ones that advance our desires as players, which for many roleplayers, is "Play 100% in character."

JaxGaret
2008-05-31, 11:33 AM
How's that not metagaming? Metagaming is as simple as one's desires reflecting in their play.. which it pretty much always will. This isn't about "Not playing in character", by default. Meta-intentions are ones that advance our desires as players, which for many roleplayers, is "Play 100% in character."

Would you have been more amenable to Fiwipig's statement if they had said "some people like to keep metagaming to a minimum" instead?

Raum
2008-05-31, 11:39 AM
I reject your absolute statement. It is based solely on your first- and secondhand experience. You may not believe me, but it is possible to forget it's a game and care about the story, specifically the characters. I have, and it is wonderful.Compartmentalizing your experience to separate the game from the story doesn't invalidate Rutee's statement. If you're aware of and using the game's rules, you're metagaming. If you're not aware of and using the rules, I start to wonder if you're playing a game...

UserClone
2008-05-31, 01:32 PM
When you don't roll any dice or compare numbers, how do the rules come into play? That can happen, and often does. I fail to see how you are defining metagaming. Essentially, the way you see it, gaming=metagaming. That is simply not the case. Metagaming is the gaining and using of knowledge (other than the basics of the system in which you roleplay, that is obvious), such as "those baddies are minions," to give yourself an advantage, or negate a disadvantage, while simultaneously ruining suspension of disbelief. Incidentally, an appropriate knowledge skill check in 4E does tell you that the monster is a minion. To me there is more of a gray area than the line between "story" and "game mechanics" that you seem to be implying that I believe exists.

EDIT: I am going to stop feeding the trolls at this point; to the OP, I apologize for helping derail your thread.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 01:21 AM
to the OP, I apologize for helping derail your thread.

Oh, it's alright.

So, anyone else have 2cp to put in on the original topic?

RukiTanuki
2008-06-02, 05:41 PM
Proposed problem: A "miss" attack for 3 damage fails to kill the minion, while a "hit" attack for 2 damage kills a minion.
Proposed solution: Miss attacks that deal would deal damage to minions (were it not for minions' specific rules) knock minions prone instead.
Result: A "miss" attack for 3 damage knocks the minion down, while a "hit" attack for 2 damage knocks the minion down, DEAD. The lesser damage roll still has a greater effect.

Doesn't seem like you're achieving your actual objective.

Can someone actually point me at a 4e power that does damage on a miss, then point to another power, in the same class, at the same level, that does less damage (than power A's miss damage) on a hit? Does this theoretical hobgoblin actually exist?

If not (meaning miss damage is always smaller than hit damage anyway), can we go back to describing damage when the player thinks they did damage, and having monsters fall when they're defeated, and not worrying too much about whether the players are upset about numbers they can't see? :)

Raum
2008-06-02, 06:07 PM
If you really want a simple mechanic to avoid such situations, give your minions damage resistance (all types, not 3.5 DR) equal to half their level. Make it equal to level if half isn't enough. Then allow all damaging effects to incapacitate them as long as damage passes the threshold. You still don't have any accounting and, more importantly, you use the same damage system against all opponents instead of a separate subsystem for minions.

Yakk
2008-06-02, 09:11 PM
0 damage: no death
> 0, < level damage: 50-50 chance of death
>= level damage: dead

JaxGaret
2008-06-02, 09:16 PM
0 damage: no death
> 0, < level damage: 50-50 chance of death
>= level damage: dead

That gives me another idea. Make the Minion roll a save against death. Quick and easy, and you don't have to remember which Minion has which status effect.

I like it.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-03, 01:21 AM
Instead of all this stuff, can't we just give minions 4hp and be done with it?

JaxGaret
2008-06-03, 01:26 AM
Instead of all this stuff, can't we just give minions 4hp and be done with it?

Not really.

Yakk
2008-06-03, 09:50 AM
Instead of all this stuff, can't we just give minions 4hp and be done with it?
1> All of a sudden, you have to track minion HP. That is one of the reasons behind the minion rules: every standing minion should be indistinguishable to the DM, other than position.

2> Some miss attacks do 1 hp, some do 2 hp, some do 3 hp, some do 4 hp, some do 20 hp. This tends to grow with level.

Indon
2008-06-03, 10:01 AM
My proposed general houserules (so far):

That the Prone condition:
Provides a +2 bonus to ranged attack rolls.

Imposes a -2 penalty to all other attack rolls.

At present, going prone makes you worse at ranged attacking.

New condition, Kneeling:
Minor action to enter the kneeling state, minor action to stand from kneeling.
+1 to ranged attack rolls
-1 to all other attack rolls
+1 to defense against ranged attacks


I feel these houserules will make 4'th edition a better tactical game.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-03, 10:19 AM
That information is false... being prone does not make you more vulnerable to ranged attacks.


PRONE
✦ You grant combat advantage to enemies making
melee attacks against you.
✦ You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged
attacks from nonadjacent enemies.
✦ You’re lying on the ground. (If you’re flying, you safely
descend a distance equal to your fly speed. If you
don’t reach the ground, you fall.)
✦ You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls.
✦ You can drop prone as a minor action.

Indon
2008-06-03, 10:21 AM
Oh, my bad, I confused attack and defenses. Serves me right for not having the books onhand. I'll fix the houserule now. Good catch.

Dark Tira
2008-06-03, 10:37 AM
It might be good to extend this houserule to minions who have temp hp from a source (like a Kobold Wyrmpriest) and get hit with an autodamage effect that fails to kill them via damage (normal rules are autodamage effects instakill any minion).