Orcus & the 4e MM

[Cuddly]

Is anyone else really excited to see Orcus in the 4e MM? I know I am! They also include a high priest, and a bunch of other minions. I think it's pretty cool.

I'm actually really impressed with the 4e MM. I also like the cleaning up they did with types & subtypes, while still leaving room for more (whether by homebrew or supplements). The art in it is very clean, and just about every monster has a picture. They've also expanded on some monsters, like the Medusa, that no one ever used, since they don't make any sense, unless you want to right up a bunch of backstory about how the Medusa came to be and why you're using someone else's monster.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Same here. However, you know what's the really interesting bit?

Take a look at Orcus.

Then, take a look at the experience per monster tables in the DMG.

Notice how it goes up to 40? I'm wondering what kind of thing they're preparing about that. I find the idea of battling a level 40 Demogorgon really exciting. It makes me very hopeful about what we will see in the future MM's, because 40 levels give a wide range for the designers to invent new monsters, and under the new system, the possibilities for those are endless.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

40 will probably be for deities and high-end abominations.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Obviously, but considering the DMG says encounters of 8 levels above the PC's or more are nigh on impossible, this means that there's probably going to be something above and beyond the epic levels.

[Cuddly]

Obviously, but considering the DMG says encounters of 8 levels above the PC's or more are nigh on impossible, this means that there's probably going to be something above and beyond the epic levels.

Of course there will be. They've got to tap the Tippy market.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Of course there will be. They've got to tap the Tippy market.

:smallbiggrin:

[Reel On, Love]

Obviously, but considering the DMG says encounters of 8 levels above the PC's or more are nigh on impossible, this means that there's probably going to be something above and beyond the epic levels.

Some people like trying the nigh-on impossible.

It becomes less impossible if you have allies.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Some people like trying the nigh-on impossible.

It becomes less impossible if you have allies.

Yes, but considering the power Orcus has, I imagine Demogorgon would be outright impossible without more levels, to the point of "You lose unless you have at least THIS amount of levels".

[Draz74]

They've said before that their scale of calibration was that Major Deities, like Moradin, would end up being about Level 38. (Moradin was the specific example used.) High enough level that they would see Orcus as a fairly easy challenge in a fair 1v1 fight, but a real threat if he has strong helpers or if they are weaker than usual.

[Pronounceable]

Anyone notice how it looks suspiciously like a bloodthirster? He used to be a fat ugly meanie with a skully head, wasn't he?

[JaxGaret]

Blood for the Blood God!

[bosssmiley]

Anyone notice how it looks suspiciously like a bloodthirster? He used to be a fat ugly meanie with a skully head, wasn't he?

He's been working out...as has almost everything else in the Mesomorph Manual. :smallwink:

Orcus: "Ma. Where's my protein shake?" *Orcus 'roid rage*

( Fat skull-face Orcus > Beefcake Orcus )

[Ned the undead]

Post his stats!
Some of us can't afford/get the 4e books early right now.

[Overlard]

Post his stats!
Some of us can't afford/get the 4e books early right now.
Then wait til you can. Posting his stats is actually kinda illegal...

[Azerian Kelimon]

{Scrubbed}

Please don't post copyrighted content.

[Ned the undead]

Then wait til you can. Posting his stats is actually kinda illegal...

Oh.
That's no fun.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Oh.
That's no fun.

Guess you'll have fun anyway. :smalltongue:

[ShadowSiege]

He's been working out...as has almost everything else in the Mesomorph Manual. :smallwink:

Orcus: "Ma. Where's my protein shake?" *Orcus 'roid rage*

( Fat skull-face Orcus > Beefcake Orcus )

His depiction in BoVD and Fiendish Codex 1 is in line with the 4e depiction. Those didn't depict the bloat he was supposed to have. Maybe they got rid of that bit. He never had a skull face though, always something akin to a rams head, though 3e (perhaps 2e, but I'm unfamiliar with that edition) added much bigger teeth/tusks and big claws.

As for looking like a bloodthirster, it's because both are based around the same depiction of demons.

[RoboticSheeple]

No need to be rude, overlard.


There was nothing rude about it. Overlard was pointing out that until the SRD for 4.0 is out it is a violation of copyright law and maybe forum rules (not sure on that one but see copyright law violation) to post material from the books.

[Azerian Kelimon]

There was nothing rude about it. Overlard was pointing out that until the SRD for 4.0 is out it is a violation of copyright law and maybe forum rules (not sure on that one but see copyright law violation) to post material from the books.

As far as I know, WotC doesn't own Orcus.

If they don't own it, I have complete freedom to post his stats. Mindflayers would be a whole 'nuther story, though, as they are WotC monsters.

[Innis Cabal]

WoTC Does in fact own Orcus

[Azerian Kelimon]

WoTC Does in fact own Orcus

If he appeared in 1st or second edition, then no, Sirrah.

[Innis Cabal]

Mindflayers exitested in 2nd ed, beholders did to, alot of monsters did.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mindflayers exitested in 2nd ed, beholders did to, alot of monsters did.

Yes, but most of those monsters remain under TSR. The Beholder and Mindflayer are exceptions, as WotC had to buy them SPECIFICALLY. Everything else was sort of loaned.

[Artemician]

Yes, but most of those monsters remain under TSR. The Beholder and Mindflayer are exceptions, as WotC had to buy them SPECIFICALLY. Everything else was sort of loaned.

WotC owns the 4e stats for Orcus. Whether they own the copyright to the concept of Orcus is irrelevant.

[RoboticSheeple]

As far as I know, WotC doesn't own Orcus.

If they don't own it, I have complete freedom to post his stats. Mindflayers would be a whole 'nuther story, though, as they are WotC monsters.

EVEN if what you say is the case about Orcus not being a copyrighted property until the SRD is released June 6th 2008 it's still not kosher.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080108a

But this thread isn't for debating copyright laws so back to the subject of Orcus in 4.0 MM, Great stuff for making someone aside from the Tarrasque the end game beasty with minions and more built in story to work use.

[Moff Chumley]

Meh, your so called concepts of 'law' hardly are valid on the internet, are they?

[RoboticSheeple]

Meh, your so called concepts of 'law' hardly are valid on the internet, are they?

:smallamused: Not when we are discussing a book that we've all read that doesn't come out for a week anyway. :smallwink:

[RTGoodman]

*Kicks thread in direction of juicy details*

So, just how beefy are these abyssal ghoul myrmidons and dread wraiths? Are they Minions, or actually tough monsters (Elite, etc.)?

It seems to me that Orcus has a chance, by himself, to destroy most all parties. I mean, yeah being dropped immediately to 0 HP isn't as bad in this edition (since everyone can heal themselves to some extent), but healing surges run out and Orcus just has to wait a while before most of his stuff recharges (since his good abilities aren't 1/encounter or /day).


(Also, I'm still trying to get used to the speed being in squares instead of feet, and I freaked out a little when I saw "Fly 10 (clumsy).' I thought for a minute that this giant monstrous devil god was apparently the slowest flier ever! :smalleek:

[Azerian Kelimon]

*Kicks thread in direction of juicy details*

So, just how beefy are these abyssal ghoul myrmidons and dread wraiths? Are they Minions, or actually tough monsters (Elite, etc.)?

It seems to me that Orcus has a chance, by himself, to destroy most all parties. I mean, yeah being dropped immediately to 0 HP isn't as bad in this edition (since everyone can heal themselves to some extent), but healing surges run out and Orcus just has to wait a while before most of his stuff recharges (since his good abilities aren't 1/encounter or /day).


(Also, I'm still trying to get used to the speed being in squares instead of feet, and I freaked out a little when I saw "Fly 10 (clumsy).' I thought for a minute that this giant monstrous devil god was apparently the slowest flier ever! :smalleek:

Myrmidons are minions, but dread wraiths are the real deal, level 25 lurkers.

[bosssmiley]

WoTC Does in fact own Orcus

I know you can't patent it, but can you copyright prior art? :smallconfused:

Orcus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_(mythology)) - Etrusco-Roman death god

[kamikasei]

I know you can't patent it, but can you copyright prior art? :smallconfused:

We all can talk all we want about Orcus, a fictional character inspired by mythology.

We do not, however, have the right to copy the specific text authored by WotC describing Orcus and his stats in 4e.

[hamishspence]

Wasn't Orcus originally the name of the Underworld in Roman mythology: a plane in a D&D sense, not a character?

Was there ever a fictional being orcus before D&D did him?

[Roland St. Jude]

Meh, your so called concepts of 'law' hardly are valid on the internet, are they?

Sheriff of Moddingham: Somewhat. The Forum Rules certianly apply, and as a site devoted to original artistic content, we take a particularly dim view of copyright infringement. If the details turn out to be in the SRD, fine, but unless you can point to an OGL source (or you have express permission from a copyright holder to show us, please don't post copyrighted material.

[Innis Cabal]

I know you can't patent it, but can you copyright prior art? :smallconfused:

Orcus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus_(mythology)) - Etrusco-Roman death god

You can if it wasnt presently copyrighted by another entity. Even if it is a pre-existing thing you can still own the rights to it.

[Maerok]

Pssh... Mephistopheles or bust. :smallwink:

[bosssmiley]

Pssh... Mephistopheles or bust. :smallwink:

Try saying that fast three times. :smallwink:

[AslanCross]

I really liked Orcus's entry myself. I like how it wasn't just "Oh, hai, herez a big badd meaniez." It had a whole retinue of lackeys that would make for a great adventure/campaign ending sequence. (The presence of an Aspect is also pretty cool)

[hamlet]

His depiction in BoVD and Fiendish Codex 1 is in line with the 4e depiction. Those didn't depict the bloat he was supposed to have. Maybe they got rid of that bit. He never had a skull face though, always something akin to a rams head, though 3e (perhaps 2e, but I'm unfamiliar with that edition) added much bigger teeth/tusks and big claws.

As for looking like a bloodthirster, it's because both are based around the same depiction of demons.

Throughout most of 2nd edition, Orcus was "officially dead."

Slain by Kiaransalee and wiped from existance (almost) by her decree.

He cam back as an undead god with access to a deity slaying power (The Last Word) which he used to exact horrible revenge against everybody except the one who burned him and was, possibly, stopped by intrepid adventurers in the end before he could regenerate himself with his Wand and so he ended up burning himself out via use of the Last Word.

However, that is far from certain as the last scene of that adventure is . . . confusing. It is heavily hinted that the acts of the PC's not only fail to prevent the return of Orcus, but inadvertantly cause it.