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JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 02:36 AM
So who else is surprised at the number and relative usefulness of the monsters-as-PCs listed in the back of the MM?

They may be a shade less powerful than the PHB races (particularly the Human), but I can definitely see them easily competing, and of course just for the spice of variety it's nice that there are 16 different ones. I had been hearing that there would be like 5 playable races in the MM.

Some of them are actually pretty comparable to the PHB races - Githyanki make excellent Wizards, Bugbears make nice damage + stealth Rogues, Doppelgangers have a sweet racial ability that I can see being a lot of fun to play in a campaign, Gnolls get that extra square of movement that no one else has, the Gnome's Reactive Stealth, Fade Away power and +2 stealth bonus make them stealth monsters, the Hobgoblin's Resilience encounter power can be a life-saver, and Minotaurs are simply damage machines (pair them with a Maul or Heavy Flail or TWF Longsword/Shortsword for maximum effect).

Daracaex
2008-06-01, 02:52 AM
I think it's great! Sure, Gnomes were removed from the PHB. We still got them, though. The only thing they're missing is some of the fluff and racial feats. As a matter of fact, making more racial feats for all races is near the top of my list for 4th. I have a long list.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-01, 03:00 AM
Apart from being slightly faster then other races, what else can Gnolls do? Also, have Lupins or Phanatons been converted yet?

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 03:35 AM
Phanatons

Mmmm...phanatons. I remember playing one of them in OD&D. A shaman/druid-y kind of character named Rikiji.

The gnome racial reminds me a lot of ninjas in Final Fantasy Tactics. Not sure how I feel about that with all the various accusations that 4e is like a video game.

I wonder if they're going to do a 4e Council of Wyrms. Eh, probably not.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-01, 03:43 AM
I was thinking about using the Phanaton Wizard which I'm using in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80422) freeform game in a proper D&D game. (I like half-animal races, and I thought Phanatons looked fun to play as). Was Rikiji a fun character?

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 04:06 AM
Apart from being slightly faster then other races, what else can Gnolls do?

They get an Encounter racial power that adds damage to a charge, and they have a racial feature that makes them deal additional damage while they're bloodied.

Also, +Con, +Dex, +Intimidate, and LLV.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-01, 04:11 AM
Thanks. What does LLV shand for and what are the exact Intimidate, Con and Dex bonuses? Also, are they still mainly evil?

UserClone
2008-06-01, 04:34 AM
They're all +2. LLV=Low-light vision. There is no alignment restriction, but all the MM examples are CE in alignment.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 04:36 AM
What does LLV stand for

Low-light vision.


Also, are they still mainly evil?

Allow me to answer this question with a quote from the MM:


Gnolls are feral, demon-worshiping marauders that kill, pillage, and destroy. They attack communities along the borderlands without warning and slaughter without mercy, all in the name of the demon lord Yeenoghu.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 04:36 AM
I was thinking about using the Phanaton Wizard which I'm using in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80422) freeform game in a proper D&D game. (I like half-animal races, and I thought Phanatons looked fun to play as). Was Rikiji a fun character?

In previous editions I really liked man-imal races, too. I still get a kick out of the rakasta from OD&D and their toratsume. I've mostly played humans in 3e, though, for the versatility of the bonus feat.

Rikiji was a fun character; superstitious and a bit zany. I played him sort of like a cross between a kender and yoda - alternating sagacity with some serious AD/HD - in a party with your standard stoic knight, stuck-up wizard, and self-righteous cleric. I got along pretty well with the thief, though. The campaign never went very far but it was fun while it lasted. (My group tended to swap out characters and campaigns about once a month back then; it was rare that I'd play a character more than a few times until we got heavily involved in one friend's Mystara/Forgotten Realms crossover campaign that he took over from his older brother who went off to college.)

I believe I originally got the phanaton racial stats out of an issue of Dragon Magazine dealing with Mystara. Back in those days, if you weren't human, your race and class were the same thing. I remember being shocked that they had two different versions of the phanaton race/class: one was a martial 'brave'-type and the other was a shaman-type spellcaster. Most of the spells came from the druid spell list (which was odd in and of itself considering, to become a druid, you first had to advance to 9th level as a cleric and then, essentially, retrain into a 9th-level druid with a different spell list). Phanaton racials were also unique among the class/races because you'd eventually become able to fly (I think you initially gained a bonus to jumping or something, then around 5th you could glide, and then fly around 9-10th, can't remember exactly).

I worked a bit on a write-up for a homebrew 3e phanaton but ended up losing momentum in the face of other projects. I think a re-make of Rikiji would be a lot of fun using the Totemic class from the Magic of Incarnum or the spirit shaman from Complete Divine.

I did play a psionic version of him in an Alternity StarGate campaign...but he wasn't very well liked by the other players/characters or the GM. The GM really got annoyed when Rikiji made the rolls to resist being implanted/mind controlled by a symbiot and the campaign didn't last long after that. (Everyone else's character was implanted and taken over for the session, part of the plot, so Rikiji ended up spending the entire session in a coma. :smallmad:)

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-01, 04:37 AM
Thanks for the clarification. A lack of LA is definitly a good thing. I wonder why hey changed he Str bonus to Dex (I always thought Gnollls looked awkward). That sounds annoying about the coma. It seems strange that there were 2 different racial classes as well (I don't know much about the earliest editions).

Iku Rex
2008-06-01, 05:02 AM
So who else is surprised at the number and relative usefulness of the monsters-as-PCs listed in the back of the MM?There are no monsters-as-PCs listed in the DMG. (Edit: I mean MM of course.) There are "traits and powers ... provided to help Dungeon Masters create nonplayer characters (NPCs)". But, yes, they can be used as "guidelines" for creating player character (PC) versions of the creatures, "within reason".

It's a "let the DM handle it, so nobody can criticize us for lack of balance" approach.

UserClone
2008-06-01, 05:11 AM
What? He said MM, the DMG was never mentioned...?

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 05:15 AM
Monster Manual, page 276.

That's all I'm going to say to that.

Morty
2008-06-01, 06:58 AM
"Shade" less powerful? PC races get a boatload of stuff while monsters get only stat bonuses, skill bonuses, one feature and one power. Wheee. It's in no way better than 3ed, I'd say, with the exception of hobgoblins.

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 07:25 AM
"Shade" less powerful? PC races get a boatload of stuff while monsters get only stat bonuses, skill bonuses, one feature and one power. Wheee. It's in no way better than 3ed, I'd say, with the exception of hobgoblins.

Not really true, let's compare a bit.

We use the dragonborn as our pc race (taken because it was the first)

The dragonborn gets 1 additional point of AB when bloodied. - useful, but minor.

Healing surge get con mod added. - useful at low levels, less so at higher, as healing surge increases with, at least, 1 HP/level, and your con mod can only increase with +4 ever, over the course of 30 (well, 28) levels, and that's assuming you increase con every time you can. (Compare 7 + 3 (slightly less than one half is added) con at level 1 to 50 + 7 (slightly more than one seventh is added), not terribly impressive in my book.

Then they get a semi useful encounter power. - (assuming same dragonborn as before): An average of 16.5 damage at level 21, in a minor area (note that 4e assumes much larger battlegrounds than 3.x, and as such a 3 by 3 square isn't terribly impressive).

Then we have, say, the bugbear (taken for the same reason as the dragonborn.

Oversized, this is an average increase in damage of 1 point, which is part of [W], so, it scales well, in addition, it works by increasing die size, which results in better crits.

Their encounter power isn't very powerful either, having an average damage 10.5, but it is just a minor action, and as such gets added to the total damage tally of the round.

I'd say they are about equal in strength, and I just took the first PC race, and the first NPC race, and since they are alphabetical, that should be about the same as random.

Tengu
2008-06-01, 07:29 AM
I don't think if monster races are less powerful than player ones. Maybe if you're looking at Goblins or Shifters, but some races are really strong:

Bugbears are Oversized. So are Minotaurs.
Doppelgangers have a great racial.
Drow's Darkfire is awesome for rogues.
Githzerai have a very good defensive racial.

Gezina - Dragonborn can breathe as a minor action too.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:33 AM
"Shade" less powerful? PC races get a boatload of stuff while monsters get only stat bonuses, skill bonuses, one feature and one power. Wheee. It's in no way better than 3ed, I'd say, with the exception of hobgoblins.

I made sure to go back and look at all of the PHB races before I even posted this thread, to make sure that my premise wasn't way off.

You really need to look at the "boatload of stuff" the PHB races are getting and compare them to what each monster race actually gets. You might be surprised. Some of the monster races are inferior, sure, but there are a number of them that compete with the PHB races or even outdo them at certain builds, like those I posted above.

For instance, try and pick a flat-out "better" PHB race for each of these combinations that isn't a Human:

Githyanki Wizard
Bugbear Damage/Stealth Rogue
Minotaur TWF Ranger
Hobgoblin Warlock
Gnome Warlock

And the Doppelganger is a special case.

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 07:43 AM
Gezina - Dragonborn can breathe as a minor action too.

It's minor, okay, slightly better then.

Will still only, in a standard encounter, affect 2 enemies tops, so still not that good (and if it affects more (not counting minions, as the amount of damage is irrelevant to them), and doesn't damage any PCs, the DM needs a slap on the wrist for poor tactics)

Morty
2008-06-01, 07:48 AM
I admit I might've been suggested by looking at goblins, orcs and kobolds first, whose racial abilities are rather lackluster when compared to what PC races get. Because let's compare goblins to halflings, the only small PC race:
-They get exactly the same stat bonuses, and both get two skill bonuses. That's standard.
-Goblins get +1 to Reflex defense. Not bad, but not very impressive either. They also get Goblin Tactics, which might be useful, but mainly for rogues.
-Halflings get +5 to saving throws against fear, making them much more resistant to such attacks, +2 to AC against opportunity attacks, which helps them run around the battlefield and Second Chance, which can save your head once per battle. Orcs don't get much love either, Warrior's Surge is nice for frontline fighters, but +2 to speed when charging is rather minor.

Scintillatus
2008-06-01, 07:49 AM
They get a racial feat that expands it; none of the MM races get any racial feats.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:50 AM
I admit I might've been suggested by looking at goblins, orcs and kobolds first

Goblins, Orcs, and Kobolds are three of the weakest monster races in the MM.

Morty
2008-06-01, 07:53 AM
Goblins, Orcs, and Kobolds are three of the weakest monster races in the MM.

Well, then I guess it's just my luck to look at three weakest races first. Not to mention goblins being my favorite race of all.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 07:55 AM
I don't know.. the kobold ability to shift as a minor action makes them some of the most mobile S.O.B.s in the game... especially if you shift back away from the big bad guy, then take your move action to move 6 more away... :smallbiggrin:

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:57 AM
I don't know.. the kobold ability to shift as a minor action makes them some of the most mobile S.O.B.s in the game... especially if you shift back away from the big bad guy, then take your move action to move 6 more away... :smallbiggrin:

It is rather nice, but it's the only benefit they get, period, besides the usual 2 stat and skill boosts. Except for +2 against traps... which I guess is pretty good if you're the guy dealing with traps.

You're right, they do make decent sneaky mobile trapfinders, since both skills and both racial features and both stat boosts all lend to survivability and mobility.

Rutee
2008-06-01, 08:26 AM
They get a racial feat that expands it; none of the MM races get any racial feats.

That sounds like a job for homebrew.


Well, then I guess it's just my luck to look at three weakest races first. Not to mention goblins being my favorite race of all.
Also homebrew. I'll note though, I consider Kobolds to be an absolute nightmare. That racial shifting ability is an interesting, but surmountable, way to go "lolmelee".

Shouldn't Gnolls have, on the homebrew note, a Racial feat that buffs the way they interact with allies?

Ned the undead
2008-06-01, 06:54 PM
I'm sure a source book will be released in the future expanding on the playable races in MM.

Suzuro
2008-06-01, 07:30 PM
I, personally, like the shifters, both their concept and the abilities. The longtooth shifter seems like it would make a good Twin-Weapon fighting ranger.


-Suzuro

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:52 PM
I, personally, like the shifters, both their concept and the abilities. The longtooth shifter seems like it would make a good Twin-Weapon fighting ranger.

Yeah, the Longtooth Shifter and the Minotaur are both excellent choices for a TWF Ranger.

Karma Guard
2008-06-01, 08:06 PM
Other than the Githyanki racial power making absolutely no sense in my head (Going from Mage Hand, Daze, and... .... fffff that one defensive boost power to a strange sort of fly-shove-Fastball Special power? I would have added a simple Super Mage Hand/Bigby's Manly Grope sort of thing), I'm pretty down with the new way races are handled.

It makes them so much easier to make, and with no LA, I can finally play all those races I wanted without the uck of being permanently underleveled.

Hyudra
2008-06-01, 08:59 PM
I find the powers are very thematic. I want to try a bugbear as sort of a brute rogue, which would involve doing scads of damage. Gnoll looks interesting, and I'd play a kobold or gnome for their flavor & abilities.

I can see the abilities of the Gith drawing people into gith-flavored campaigns, as well.

Most underwhelming are probably orc & goblin. Lack of a half orc kind of stands out, IMHO.

Fhaolan
2008-06-01, 09:25 PM
No Centaurs. :smallfrown:

I need my Centaurs. They're actually reasonably important to my campaign setting.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I can homebrew them, but it's still annoying. :smalltongue:

Ned the undead
2008-06-01, 09:56 PM
When my group plays it's first 4e game I plan to play a Minotaur Ranger named Mr.Bahjahngle.

Iku Rex
2008-06-02, 01:01 AM
Monster Manual, page 276.

That's all I'm going to say to that.Yes, that's the page I was quoting from, where it says that the listed races are generally intended for NPCs.

(No idea why I said DMG instead of MM.)

Edea
2008-06-02, 01:02 AM
I like the idea of a gith wizard, but for the moment I'll stick with humans.

AaronH
2008-06-02, 03:33 AM
And once again, the choker doesn't make it in as a PC race. :(

I totally want to play as a choker paladin.