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Belial_the_Leveler
2008-06-01, 06:43 AM
OK, at level 10 you have 2 at will powers, 3 encounter powers, 3 daily powers and 3 utilities. You also have your Second Wind. One or two of your powers will be interrupts or minor actions so you won't use them as a main attack. Dailies have to be spread over many encounters so, on average, you will be using a daily per encounter only about half the time. Utilities are also mostly dailies so the other half of the encounters you'll use a utility (on average). You'll also be using a Second Wind when you're wounded.


This means 1 daily or utility, 1 second wind, 2 standard action encounter powers and 1 interrupt. That is 4 rounds.

Combat in 4E lasts about 8-10 rounds at medium difficulty. This means that at more than half the rounds you'll be using your basic attack: precise blow, eldritch blast, magic missile and so on.

At lower levels you're using many more basic attacks because you have less than 3 powers of each kind while the encounters last the same number of rounds. That means at level 6 you use standard attack for 7 rounds out of 10. At level 1 you'll be using standard attack at 9 rounds out of 10.

At higher levels this improves only marginally. Why? Because you don't gain any more class powers except for utilities.

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 07:04 AM
You forget a couple of things.

1. Magic items, most magic items also have powers, hugely increasing the amount of powers you can use.

2. Race, most races have either an encounter or an at will power, again, increasing the amount of powers you can use.

3. Paragon paths & epic destinies, both of which give powers. (Both give utility, PP gives encounter and daily)

So, assuming you are, say, level 11 you have:

2-3 at will powers, 4-5 encounter powers, 6 daily powers (They seem to assume 3 magic items/player), and 3 utility powers (of which you'll most likely have at least one that's usable as an encounter power)

Since most races provide an encounter power, and not an at will power, that is six encounter powers, and eight daily powers, assuming roughly 4 encounters every day, that's 8 powers which aren't at will every encounter. Since you said 8-10 rounds for an average encounter, you will, assuming 2 of these powers use non standard actions, have 6 power attacks every round.

In addition, at will powers aren't basic attacks, basic attacks are straight attacks with weapons, and don't use powers.

I should note that I haven't played at higher levels than 1 yet, but I can tell you, 1st level encounters take roughly 5-7 rounds (IMG).

Not to mention the new system is much more allowing for tactics than 3.5, I'll refer to something one of my warlock players did. You see, instead of standing in place and spamming eldritch blast, like he did with 3.5 warlocks, he never stood still, always trying to get closest to someone he hadn't yet cursed, curing him, and then proceeding to try and take out someone damaged.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 07:09 AM
And since encounter powers reset on a short rest (5 minutes)... you have those -probably- every 3 fights. (May differ between playgroups... my group last night had to take a short rest after every second fight... but they were 4 manning a 5-person adventure)

Reel On, Love
2008-06-01, 07:11 AM
You're used to 3.5, where you can spam a power--maneuver, spell, etc--every round. 4E has more tactics and more resource management. Heck, deciding when to use a Daily alone is a big decision.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-01, 11:41 AM
And since encounter powers reset on a short rest (5 minutes)... you have those -probably- every 3 fights. (May differ between playgroups... my group last night had to take a short rest after every second fight... but they were 4 manning a 5-person adventure)


The idea behind 4E is you should get the encounter powers back after every fight. It is asumed you can almost always do a short rest after an encounter. Encounter powers are like 3E barbarian rage, where there is a time out before you can use the power gain. To keep things simple in 4E they call it an encounter power , so you don't need to worry about counting rounds. But every fight you should have your encounter powers back, and encounters should be difficult enough that you need to use most of your encounter powers to survive.

RiOrius
2008-06-01, 12:18 PM
1. Magic items, most magic items also have powers, hugely increasing the amount of powers you can use.



You can only use so many magic item (daily) powers per day, based on your character level (well, tier really). 1-10 is 1 magic item daily power per day, 11-20 is 2, and 21-30 is 3. So even if you have a sack full of twenty wands, if you're only level 11 you can only use two of them per day.

For your calculations, this only reduces the number of fancy actions you get by one, but I thought it worth pointing out this rule. I was planning to build a character with a bajillion wands and go nuts until I saw it...

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 12:20 PM
You can only use so many magic item (daily) powers per day, based on your character level (well, tier really). 1-10 is 1 magic item daily power per day, 11-20 is 2, and 21-30 is 3. So even if you have a sack full of twenty wands, if you're only level 11 you can only use two of them per day.

Plus one more item Daily for every Milestone you reach that day, just like action points.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 12:30 PM
Not to mention, you get 2 at-wills PLUS your Basic attack. That means three different at wills, not two. Four of them if you are a human, and an extra encounter power if you're a half elf.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-01, 01:09 PM
In addition, at will powers aren't basic attacks, basic attacks are straight attacks with weapons, and don't use powers.

Eh? Sure they are. I don't see any reason for most classes to ever use a straight weapon attack over one of their at-will powers that deals weapon damage plus does something more.

Morandir Nailo
2008-06-01, 01:10 PM
I can see most groups definitely taking a short rest between every encounter, unless the DM just throws the next one at them without giving them the chance to do so.

I'm not so sure about the 8-10 round thing. I set up and ran the first encounter from KotS yesterday (by myself, just trying to get a feel for combat before I run it), and despite bad rolls for the PCs, great rolls for the monsters (several crits), and my forgetting to use several things (like the Fighter's class abilities), it was over in 4 1/2 rounds. It would have been 3 had the Rogue and Cleric not blown both their encounter and daily powers due to bad rolls.

On a side note, does anyone have a good way to keep track of marking? In the combat I ran I ended up with a crazy 5-way fight, with the Rogue, Fighter and Cleric all flanking the two Kobold Dragonshields. Between the fighter and the dragonshields, marks were flying like mad and I had trouble remembering who had marked who (and thus who should be taking attack penalties and generating OAs).

Mor

Edea
2008-06-01, 01:59 PM
PHB even says a combat encounter ends with a short rest (p.266).

ShadowSiege
2008-06-01, 02:04 PM
On a side note, does anyone have a good way to keep track of marking? In the combat I ran I ended up with a crazy 5-way fight, with the Rogue, Fighter and Cleric all flanking the two Kobold Dragonshields. Between the fighter and the dragonshields, marks were flying like mad and I had trouble remembering who had marked who (and thus who should be taking attack penalties and generating OAs).

Coins or plastic, stackable stands (recolored checkers pieces, perhaps?) would work well for tracking status effects such as marks, stuns, etc.

kamikasei
2008-06-01, 02:09 PM
On a side note, does anyone have a good way to keep track of marking? In the combat I ran I ended up with a crazy 5-way fight, with the Rogue, Fighter and Cleric all flanking the two Kobold Dragonshields. Between the fighter and the dragonshields, marks were flying like mad and I had trouble remembering who had marked who (and thus who should be taking attack penalties and generating OAs).

Wizards had an article (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dusg/20080227a) on the subject a while back.

Nikolai_II
2008-06-01, 03:00 PM
Combat in 4E lasts about 8-10 rounds at medium difficulty. This means that at more than half the rounds you'll be using your basic attack: precise blow, eldritch blast, magic missile and so on.


Huh? 8-10 rounds was a long fight for 3.5, and 4Ed is supposedly faster..

Jothki
2008-06-01, 03:04 PM
Huh? 8-10 rounds was a long fight for 3.5, and 4Ed is supposedly faster..

Each individual round is faster.

its_all_ogre
2008-06-01, 03:53 PM
a lot faster to play!
we played the first combat yesterday and it took about 6 rounds but only about 30 mins!
if we start playing 4ed i'm going to need to write up bigger adventures!!

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 04:08 PM
a lot faster to play!
we played the first combat yesterday and it took about 6 rounds but only about 30 mins!
if we start playing 4ed i'm going to need to write up bigger adventures!!
Aye, our DM ended up having us captured and thrown in an arena as gladiators.

Granted, we more or less openly suggested it, as we really wanted to fight all the shiny new monsters. :smallbiggrin:

By the way, while I'm still a bit disappointed by the low amount of powers(especially utilities, they really should have given every character some general skill-related and out-of-combat utilities), the pace of combat does a good job at keeping you from noticing this.

Especially since your opponents have their powers, too. This really makes things a lot more interesting.


EDIT: And, of course, everything is better than "5-foot-step. Full attack."...

nagora
2008-06-01, 04:15 PM
You're used to 3.5, where you can spam a power--maneuver, spell, etc--every round. 4E has more tactics and more resource management. Heck, deciding when to use a Daily alone is a big decision.
Yes, but we're all against that sort of thing, aren't we? I thought the whole reason people hated Vancian casting was because it required exactly that decision about when to use daily powers.:smallsmile:

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 04:19 PM
Yes, but we're all against that sort of thing, aren't we? I thought the whole reason people hated Vancian casting was because it required exactly that decision about when to use daily powers.:smallsmile:

No, it was the vast amounts of bookkeeping and prep time necessary with Vancian casting that I disliked. Choosing which spell to cast at the right time was the fun part...

nagora
2008-06-01, 04:47 PM
No, it was the vast amounts of bookkeeping and prep time necessary with Vancian casting that I disliked. Choosing which spell to cast at the right time was the fun part...
Vast? I had a pre-prepared "normal list" which sometimes had a few spells swapped in or out depending on what we were expecting to meet.

From the DM's point of view, NPCs could be rattled off just by running one's finger down the spell list and deciding how many of each you wanted the NPC to have.

Reel On, Love
2008-06-01, 04:50 PM
Yes, but we're all against that sort of thing, aren't we? I thought the whole reason people hated Vancian casting was because it required exactly that decision about when to use daily powers.:smallsmile:

If you think that's why people hated vancian casting you haven't been paying attention.

Everyone gets daily powers, on top of their cool encounter (also resource-management) and at-will powers: good.
Some people have only "at-will powers", some people have only "daily" powers, and you have to somehow balance the two despite encounter-per-day variance, and give the daily guys almost nothing to start with but way too much at high levels: bad.

nagora
2008-06-01, 05:15 PM
If you think that's why people hated vancian casting you haven't been paying attention.
Well, I can only go by what they were saying. I don't remember any many complaints that didn't boil down to having daily slots and having to decide when to use them and what to fill them with. I suppose you could class the decision about what to put in the slots as a separate complaint from having slots at all, but the two are closely related.


Everyone gets daily powers, on top of their cool encounter (also resource-management) and at-will powers: good.
Some people have only "at-will powers", some people have only "daily" powers, and you have to somehow balance the two despite encounter-per-day variance, and give the daily guys almost nothing to start with but way too much at high levels: bad.

At will powers: fair enough. Encounter powers: just plain dumb. Daily powers: fair enough. I just can't imagine taking a game with per-encounter power seriously.

Reel On, Love
2008-06-01, 05:19 PM
At will powers: fair enough. Encounter powers: just plain dumb. Daily powers: fair enough. I just can't imagine taking a game with per-encounter power seriously.

"Encounter" = 5 minutes.

Being able to do something awesome once every 24 hours = fair enough.
Being able to do something moderately awesome once every 5 minutes = just plain dumb.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u231/cheezeguy/n725075089_288918_2774.jpg

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 05:23 PM
At will powers: fair enough. Encounter powers: just plain dumb. Daily powers: fair enough. I just can't imagine taking a game with per-encounter power seriously.

D'you want the official explanation on encounter powers? Perhaps they'll sound dumber when you hear that.

nagora
2008-06-01, 05:29 PM
"Encounter" = 5 minutes.

Being able to do something awesome once every 24 hours = fair enough.
Being able to do something moderately awesome once every 5 minutes = just plain dumb.

So, after all this talk of per encounter, you're telling me that it actually means per 5 minutes? If an encounter takes 6 minutes then you can use your "per encounter" abilities twice? What the heck's the point of calling them "per encounter" then?!:smallconfused:

Reel On, Love
2008-06-01, 05:29 PM
The problem isn't encounter powers. The problem is Nagora refusing to accept any playstyle but heavy simulationist.

Personally, I think simulationist gaming is crap. But I'm not going to suggest that it's impossible to take GURPS (why don't you play that, anyway, Nagora?) or 1E seriously.

Edit: no, you can't use Encounter powers again in the same encounter. After a five-minute "short rest" outside of combat, you can use'em again.

Just like you can't use Daily powers again in the same day. After an eight-hour long rest outside of combat, you can use'em again.

Wow, it's like it's basically the same thing. But somehow, Barbarian's rage makes perfect sense if it's 1/day, but makes no sense if it's 1/encounter? LOL WUT.

nagora
2008-06-01, 05:38 PM
Wow, it's like it's basically the same thing. But somehow, Barbarian's rage makes perfect sense if it's 1/day, but makes no sense if it's 1/encounter? LOL WUT.
Yes, because "encounter" is not a time period, whereas "day" is. There is no way to compare the two. "Per encounter" has no reason to it, from the characters' point of view; it's just silly and out of place.

"Per 5 minutes" would have made so much more sense that I actually believed you for a moment!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 05:39 PM
Yes, because "encounter" is not a time period, whereas "day" is. There is no way to compare the two. "Per encounter" has no reason to it, from the characters' point of view; it's just silly and out of place.

"Per 5 minutes" would have made so much more sense that I actually believed you for a moment!

Again, I ask: Would you like to know the official stance on Encounter powers? It sounds pretty reasonable.

Crow
2008-06-01, 05:45 PM
Look at it like this;

Asume I can shoulder press about 175 lbs. That is my max. If you throw that weight up on the bar, I can go address the bar and press it over my head one rep. Since I am repping my max weight, I can't immediately lower it and pump out another one. If I rest a bit (5 minutes), I may be able to do it again. Now if instead of resting, I decide that I am going to do a circuit of jump rope and pushups for 5 minutes, I am not going to be able to press that 175 when i get back to the bar.

This isn't theoretical. It is a real-world example of how it could work.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 05:46 PM
Look at it like this;

Asume I can shoulder press about 175 lbs. That is my max. If you throw that weight up on the bar, I can go address the bar and press it over my head one rep. Since I am repping my max weight, I can't immediately lower it and pump out another one. If I rest a bit (5 minutes), I may be able to do it again. Now if instead of resting, I decide that I am going to do a circuit of jump rope and pushups for 5 minutes, I am not going to be able to press that 175 when i get back to the bar.

This isn't theoretical. It is a real-world example of how it could work.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Morandir Nailo
2008-06-01, 06:43 PM
Definitely. Encounter-based stuff really isn't that hard to wrap your head around if you think of it as something with a "power meter" that takes a little while to fill up. You use the ability, then wait a small amount of time for it to recharge. Per encounter is the unit used because that's the simplest way to keep track of it. Out of combat, once per 5 minutes works well; that's the way Martial Maneuvers are handled. When you consider that combats typically only take 30 seconds or so in-game, once per 5 minutes makes perfect sense. Fight for 30 seconds, spend a minute or two looting, take a 5-minute rest, then hit the next area. Works great.

Of course, for anyone used to Exalted which has lots of power durations of "one scene," a per encounter system is pretty easy to get.

Back to what I posted earlier: those bases look interesting, thanks for that link! I was thinking about buying a big bag of small rubber bands of different colors, and just draping them over figs. Red would be bloodied, with a different color for each person's mark. That way I wouldn't have to worry about constantly moving the figures to place something under them, and I wouldn't have any trouble picking them up.

We'll see though. My group never plays with minis; just getting them to use a rules set which is this minis-dependent is going to be hard enough. I refuse to run without them though, as there's no way I'll be able to keep track of whose bloodied, marked, combat advantage'd, etc. in my head.

Mor

Reel On, Love
2008-06-01, 06:57 PM
Yes, because "encounter" is not a time period, whereas "day" is. There is no way to compare the two. "Per encounter" has no reason to it, from the characters' point of view; it's just silly and out of place.

"Per 5 minutes" would have made so much more sense that I actually believed you for a moment!

"Encounter" makes much more sense than "day", because "day" is an arbitrary time period, while an "encounter" is something during which you're exerting effort and not taking a break to recover.

Irreverent Fool
2008-06-02, 01:42 AM
"Encounter" makes much more sense than "day", because "day" is an arbitrary time period, while an "encounter" is something during which you're exerting effort and not taking a break to recover.

I have to agree. 'Charges renewed at dawn' and the like irritated me greatly, as did our cleric suggesting we strike under cover of darkness so he could expend his spells haphazardly and re-prepare them mid-adventure when the sun came up.

After using the Tome of Battle for an extended period of time, I have to say that 'per-encounter' abilities just make the game faster, easier, and less homework-y. I enjoy my wizard's 12-page character sheet as much as the next guy, but I have a better grasp of what my warblade is capable of and have spent most my time thinking about the character and the events in the game rather than which maneuvers I'll need.

Edea
2008-06-02, 01:54 AM
I wonder if we'll ever see 2/enc or 3/enc. Beyond recharging a 1/enc with other abilities, obviously. Are there any PC abilities that use the monster's "recharge on a five or a six" mechanic?

Reinboom
2008-06-02, 02:01 AM
I wonder if we'll ever see 2/enc or 3/enc. Beyond recharging a 1/enc with other abilities, obviously. Are there any PC abilities that use the monster's "recharge on a five or a six" mechanic?

There are a couple powers that are two an encounter. They are class feature powers, however.

nagora
2008-06-02, 02:35 AM
Again, I ask: Would you like to know the official stance on Encounter powers? It sounds pretty reasonable.

Go on, then.

nagora
2008-06-02, 03:37 AM
Right; I've read over the stuff. I can see the justification for "per encounter" at least as regards combat, although I still think the terminology is misleading. I also see a lot of trouble with players arguing about what constitutes a rest. But, yeah, having a few things you can do and then need a break before repeating is fair enough.

"Burst abilities" or "Surge powers" or something like that would have been a better name. "Per encounter" implies the same silliness as "Per room" would.

I'm still not clear on why essentially the same "daily" mechanism was bad when it was called Vancian spell casting but is now apparently perfectly acceptable to the 4ed cheerleaders.

The New Bruceski
2008-06-02, 05:04 AM
For one thing, Encounter Abilities put the resources on a faster scale, where a short break prepares them again so the DM (and the players) don't need to worry about a tough dungeon resulting in setting up camp every 10 feet. I don't know the hard rules for recharging Dailies, but those are now used as supplementals rather than the main attack.

Also, it's now a level playing field. Everyone's operating in the same system, whereas previously mages and clerics held the other people up.

Neither of those were accomodated by 3.5-edition casting.

Ceiling009
2008-06-02, 05:24 AM
I think a few monster powers recharged, like they would roll a die, and if it was a 5 or 6, they could use it again. I can't quite remember, but some powers don't have a encounter recharge, they just sort of keep going kinda like the breath weapons of dragons in 3.5

Reinboom
2008-06-02, 05:49 AM
I also see a lot of trouble with players arguing about what constitutes a rest.

I don't. It's decently well defined in the PHB.


I'm still not clear on why essentially the same "daily" mechanism was bad when it was called Vancian spell casting but is now apparently perfectly acceptable to the 4ed cheerleaders.

I would love to see a group of gamers, both male and female, dress up in skimpy skirts, with pom poms, trying to advertise 4e...

Aside, I don't like daily powers. I prefer my resources to be easier defined. So, it is my opinion that if a daily power shows to be daily - it needs an explanation alongside it, in my opinion.
Magic at least has a bit of supporting behind it.

Douglas
2008-06-02, 09:07 AM
I'm still not clear on why essentially the same "daily" mechanism was bad when it was called Vancian spell casting but is now apparently perfectly acceptable to the 4ed cheerleaders.
The problem with daily stuff in 3.5 is not the existence of daily abilities, it's that only some classes get them. In 3.5, a fighter has only at will abilities and a wizard has almost everything as daily abilities. The wizard's dailies are, of course, generally more powerful than the fighter's at will abilities, and the fact that they're daily is supposed to balance that out. Inconsistent numbers of encounters per day and the large number of dailies the wizards get at high levels ruin the balancing act, though, causing wizards to be vastly more powerful than fighters in exchange for a drawback that hardly ever comes up.

Skyserpent
2008-06-02, 09:13 AM
Right; I've read over the stuff. I can see the justification for "per encounter" at least as regards combat, although I still think the terminology is misleading. I also see a lot of trouble with players arguing about what constitutes a rest. But, yeah, having a few things you can do and then need a break before repeating is fair enough.

"Burst abilities" or "Surge powers" or something like that would have been a better name. "Per encounter" implies the same silliness as "Per room" would.

I'm still not clear on why essentially the same "daily" mechanism was bad when it was called Vancian spell casting but is now apparently perfectly acceptable to the 4ed cheerleaders.


The rest issue isn't so bad considering they actually decided to state flat out what the time constraint was.

The Daily mechanism in 4e is such that no matter what you're always going to have at least 80% of your abilities at the start of a fight, as opposed to the Narcoleptic Wizard of 3.5 who's most important part of the day is the first 20 minutes or so, and then he needs to run/rope/port away to sleep some more.