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jcsw
2008-06-01, 07:13 AM
So I just noticed it said "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3." in the entry for kobolds.

I was wondering why this is so, wouldn't it mean that the CR of a Kobold Adept is lower than a Kobold without NPC classes at all, and does in fact have negative challenge rating?

Wouldn't this mean that if I was asked to design "a kobold encounter with CR 6" I could actually use a Kobold Rogue 8/Adept 1?

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-01, 07:18 AM
CRs are assumed to be guidelines anyways. I believe the implication is that one should adjust them when it seems appropriate.

You would also probably use the 8 rogue levels before the 1 adept too.

While the thing could have negative levels thanks to the NPC adept level, I would think that the very least it should be treated as having a CR of at least that of a normal Kobolds.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:19 AM
If you take that rule literally, then yes, by the RAW, a Kobold Rogue8/Adept1 would be CR6.

The RAW also doesn't state that you can't stand up and do a jig when you're dead.

It always helps to try and use a little common sense when it comes to CR, and indeed DMing in general.

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 07:40 AM
The RAW also doesn't state that you can't stand up and do a jig when you're dead.

Actually, it does, in some cases.

Today's D&D proof is that some dead people can't stand up and do a jig.

You see, when your HP is below zero (say, -11), you have more nonlethal damage than hit points (0 is more than a negative number).

When you have more nonlethal damage than hit points, you are unconscious.

When you are unconscious, you are helpless.

Helpless characters are treated as having a dexterity of 0.

Dexterity 0 means the character cannot move at all.

Q.E.D.

The only types of death which allow movement are death by constitution damage, and death by effects which neither lower a stat to 0, or lower HP to below 0.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 07:54 AM
The only types of death which allow movement are death by constitution damage, and death by effects which neither lower a stat to 0, or lower HP to below 0.

Ha! I lol'ed.

jcsw
2008-06-01, 08:20 AM
I was only wondering why the rules were so weird...

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 08:36 AM
I was only wondering why the rules were so weird...

That's like asking why the sky is blue, it is what it is.

The CR system in 3e isn't even close to perfect, there are many problems with it. It's more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule, really, as Xuincherguixe said.

ChaosDefender24
2008-06-01, 10:48 AM
It's because kobolds are weak.

For laughs, give a kobold 4 levels of adept so that you have a CR 1 creature with scorching ray, among other things

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-01, 01:04 PM
Negative CR? Is it really that hard to look at kobold and goblin CRs and connect the dots?

If you lower CR 1 by one, you get CR 1/2; if you lower that by 1, you get CR 1/3; then 1/4... and so on. So CR 1-3 is 1/4. Just like the kobold warrior 1 has... wow!

This might even be stated explicitly somewhere in the DMG or MM, I suppose.

And yes, the CR makes little sense, especially when you consider that a kobold spellcaster is better than an elf! The Str penalty is inconsequential to spellcasters, being Small is an advantage, and they even get darkvision. A kobold adept is slightly more effective, mechanically, than an elf adept, but has a CR of 2 lower.

Chronos
2008-06-01, 01:32 PM
I was wondering why this is so, wouldn't it mean that the CR of a Kobold Adept is lower than a Kobold without NPC classes at all...There is no such thing. The generic nondescript kobold they put in the stat block is a 1st-level warrior. The same is true for most other humanoids in the monster manual.


For laughs, give a kobold 4 levels of adept so that you have a CR 1 creature with scorching ray, among other thingsA kobold adept with Scorching Ray has a pretty good chance of killing one party member. A kobold adept with Web and Burning Hands has an excellent chance of killing all the party members.

ChaosDefender24
2008-06-01, 03:05 PM
Wow, I forgot about the "lighting webs on fire" bit.
Then again, since level 1 wizards can double glitterdust anyway, big whoop to the kobold.

Cuddly
2008-06-01, 05:15 PM
Wow, I forgot about the "lighting webs on fire" bit.
Then again, since level 1 wizards can double glitterdust anyway, big whoop to the kobold.

Kobold will likely have good dex, and two feats, while the wizard will probably only have one. Kobold spends one feat on imp. initiative, and the other feat on craft wand. He then gets a wand of scorching ray for cheap. Alternatively, the kobold could go for a sudden metamagic feat.

Web them, then burn the hell out of them.

[edit]
How the does a lvl 1 wizard cast glitterdust, anyway?

Chronos
2008-06-01, 05:53 PM
The Web spell also basically makes the kobold immune to counterattack, since it blocks line of effect. So the party has to incapacitate the kobold before he can get off a single standard action (when the kobold has darkvision, a Dex bonus, and a decent Hide mod even untrained), or everyone takes 6d4 fire damage (4d4 if they save, but everyone's got a -4 Dex penalty). And even if the barbarian survives that (nobody else is likely to), he's now got one more round to kill the kobold, before he gets hit by a second Burning Hands and is guaranteed to die.

ChaosDefender24
2008-06-01, 06:34 PM
It could happen with a raging barbarian with 24 strength, dealing 16 damage average per hit, especially if said barbarian did whirlwind frenzy... but that would make him less likely to survive the attack.

For two 2nd-level spells at level 1, play a focused specialist and do Precocious Apprentice.

jcsw
2008-06-01, 09:27 PM
Heh, I made a "CR 6" encounter in case my players start munchkin-ing on me.

Winged Insectile Kobold Mineral Warrior
Rogue 5/Adept 1/Mineral Warrior +1/Winged +1/Insectile +1
Chaotic Neutral
[Abberation]
[Earth][Dragonblood][Reptillian]

HP: 44

Str: 7
Dex: 28
Con: 16
Wis: 16
Int: 10
Cha: 6

AC: 28
Touch: 20
FlatFoot: 28

Landspeed: 30ft
Climb: 30ft
Airspeed: 50ft perfect

Fort: +5
Ref: +13
Will: +5

Escape Artist: 8+9 = 17
Balance: 8+9 = 17
Tumble: 8+9 = 17
Hide: 8+9+4 = 21
Move Silently: 8+9 = 17
Spot: 8+3+4 = 15
Disguise: 8-2 = 6
Listen: 8+3 = 11
Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab

Attack: +13, 1d3+1 (Pick)
Full Round: +13, 1d3 (Pick), +7, 1d4 (Tail)


Sundark Goggles
Masterwork Studded Leather Armor
Boots of Landing
+1 Small Light Pick
Metal Trout
600 GP 15 CP

Dragon Tail
Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes
Lucky Start
SneakAttack +3d6
Evasion
Trapfinding
Trap Sense +1
Uncanny Dodge
Tremorsense: Sense location of any creature within 60 ft in contact with ground
Wide Vision: Spot +4, Cannot be flanked
Earth Strike: 1/day Con to Attack Roll
DR 8: Adamantine
Draconic Rite of Passage: 1/day Ghostly Tail 2d6+5 Damage
Flaw: Shaky

Spells:
Level 0 - 3/day
Ghost Sound
Ghost Sound
Touch of Fatigue
Level 1 - 2/day
Obscuring Mist
Bless


It would replace the normal CR 6 Kobold without NPC levels, which was a level 5 rogue mineral warrior kobold, which was pretending to be a statue which is why he's holding a mining pick and a fish.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-02, 03:47 AM
You'd think common sense would apply here, and the -3 CR would only apply to the NPC class levels (which would still mean you'd get 3 of them for free, or at least for only +1 CR).