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SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 07:41 AM
Who's up for a round of speculation and debate?

The current power sources are: Divine, Arcane and Magical.

Upcoming power sources are: Elemental, Primal, Psionic, Shadow and Ki

Class Roles being Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller.

Let's fill em in! (Using the 3.5 classes that we know :P)

(Italics = Speculation)

Arcane
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Swordmage
Striker | Warlock
Controller | Wizard
Leader | Bard
[/table]

Divine
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Paladin
Striker | Favored Soul
Controller | Archivist
Leader | Cleric
[/table]

Martial
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Fighter
Striker | Rogue, Ranger
Controller | Scout
Leader | Warlord
[/table]

Psionic
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Psychic Warrior
Striker | Wilder, Lurk, Soulknife
Controller | Psion
Leader | Metamind
[/table]

Primal
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Bear Warrior
Striker | Barbarian
Controller | Druid
Leader | Spirit Shaman
[/table]

Ki
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Warblade
Striker | Swordsage, Ninja
Controller | Monk
Leader | Crusader
[/table]

Elemental
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Geomancer
Striker | Sorcerer, Dragonfire Adept
Controller | Conjurerer
Leader | Thaumaturgist
[/table]

Shadow
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Hexblade
Striker | Shadow Dancer
Controller | Shadowcaster
Leader | Necromancer
[/table]

Morty
2008-06-01, 07:56 AM
First, what exactly does "primal" mean?
As for the classes themselves:
-Arcane Leader would be Bard, I guess
-Psionic Defender would be Psychic Warrior and Psionic Controller would be Psion
I don't know about Ki, Shadow and Elemental. They too might mean different things. Although I seem to remember something about Sorcerers being elemental-based class.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 07:57 AM
"Primal" is nature... and the two examples given are Druids and Barbarians.

Morty
2008-06-01, 08:02 AM
I see. Well, Barbarians are quite obviously Defenders, and Druids could be either Leaders or Controllers. Defenders too, I guess. The problem is, Druids in 3ed were so broken they filled three roles at the same time. Other Primal class would be some sort of shaman, but they too could fit either Leader or Controller role depending on how they're made.

Scintillatus
2008-06-01, 08:06 AM
It'd be odd if Barbarians aren't strikers, IMO. They don't seem very Defenderish in concept or fluff at all.

Also, Sorcerors are definitely Elemental Strikers.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 08:11 AM
There's a thread somewhat like this over in Homebrew already...wouldn't be surprised to find a merge. You've got a much nicer table, though, btw. :smalltongue:

Divine Striker = Favored Soul
Divine Controller = Archivist

Elemental Leader = Thaumaturgist
Elemental Striker = Dragonfire Adept
Elemental Controller = Conjurer
Elemental Defender = Geomancer

Martial Controller = Scout

Ki Leader = Crusader
Ki Striker = Swordsage
Ki Controller = Monk
Ki Defender = Warblade

Primal Striker: Barbarian
Primal Leader: Spirit Shaman
Primal Controller: Druid
Primal Defender: Bear Warrior

Psionic Striker = Lurk & Soulknife
Psionic Leader = Metamind

Shadow Defender = Hexblade
Striker = Shadow Dancer
Controller = Shadowcaster
Leader = Necromancer

Glawackus
2008-06-01, 08:12 AM
Divine Striker = Favored Soul?
Ki Defender = Monk?
Ki Striker = Ninja?

InaVegt
2008-06-01, 08:12 AM
My guesses:

Arcane:
Leader: Bard (only role left to fill in, with the swordmage confirmed)

Primal:
Striker: Barbarian
Leader: Shaman (or at least something similar in concept)
Controller: Druid (They were already one of the two classes most suited to this in 3E)

Psionic:
Defender: Psychic warrior
Striker: Soulknife
Leader: Wilder
Controller: Psion

Ki:
Striker: Monk (seems to fit with 3E fluff)

Anything I haven't filled in I either have no clue, or already has a confirmed class for that role.

MorkaisChosen
2008-06-01, 08:19 AM
Wilder as Leader doesn't look right to me. I'd expect something borrowing from the Thrallherd PrC- using subtle psychic threads to inspire and influence people. If anything, a Wilder would be a Striker to me-

ZAP!

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 08:21 AM
Wilder as Leader doesn't look right to me. I'd expect something borrowing from the Thrallherd PrC- using subtle psychic threads to inspire and influence people. If anything, a Wilder would be a Striker to me-

ZAP!

Yeah, I think Wilder would be, yet another, psionic striker.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 08:24 AM
There's a thread somewhat like this over in Homebrew already...wouldn't be surprised to find a merge. You've got a much nicer table, though, btw. :smalltongue:


That's what I get for never goin' into that forum... :smalltongue:

What does everyone think of the Spellthief as an arcane striker?

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 08:29 AM
I wonder what the new classes will be like.
I mean, my 4e experience boils down to one session, which was yesterday, but I think the system could use some more variety. Most powers are aimed directly at either allies or opponents, and it seems like most of them just do damage.

Now what I could picture and would like to see would be something like an Inquisitor as a divine striker: instead of focusing on direct damage, he'd single out an opponent and target his powers - either by inhibiting them or by punishing their use.

And, of course, the 'primal' controllers and leaders could do a lot of fancy things with terrain, while the 'shadow' ones could mess with tactical movement and vision.




What does everyone think of the Spellthief as an arcane striker?
I think the concept would be cool for a psionic or ki striker - you know, stealing your enemies' powers and turning them against them.

After all, everybody has powers now, so why stick to the arcane alone? Simply go for the mind or soul of your adversary in general and you have a class that isn't as limited as the spellthief was.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 10:14 AM
I think the concept would be cool for a psionic or ki striker - you know, stealing your enemies' powers and turning them against them.

After all, everybody has powers now, so why stick to the arcane alone? Simply go for the mind or soul of your adversary in general and you have a class that isn't as limited as the spellthief was.

Hmm. That's a good point. A power stealin' striker would be fun... :smallbiggrin:

MorkaisChosen
2008-06-01, 10:23 AM
Now what I could picture and would like to see would be something like an Inquisitor as a divine striker: instead of focusing on direct damage, he'd single out an opponent and target his powers - either by inhibiting them or by punishing their use.

That's more of an alternative Controller archetype- Striker is pretty much defined as focusing on direct damage.

Ned the undead
2008-06-01, 10:47 AM
If monks keep flurry of blows I have to say they'd be the ki striker.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 10:50 AM
That's more of an alternative Controller archetype- Striker is pretty much defined as focusing on direct damage.
In the core rulebooks, yes. :smalltongue:
But that's a rather one-dimensional premise, and I think they'll have to deviate from it at some point. I mean, they want to sell splatbooks, after all.

And since the Striker's tactical role is usually to single out and attack an individual opponent while the Controller is mainly left to deal with the mooks, I think that an alternative Striker might well focus on said individual opponent's powers.

Especially since the more powerful foes often have more powers anyway, so that concept favors the Striker role.

Daracaex
2008-06-01, 12:00 PM
There's a thread somewhat like this over in Homebrew already...wouldn't be surprised to find a merge. You've got a much nicer table, though, btw. :smalltongue:


What he said. If you don't mind, may I steal some of these ideas for use over there?

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 12:15 PM
Upcoming power sources are: Elemental, Primal, Psionic, Shadow and Ki

How concrete is this info? And where did you see it from?

Trog
2008-06-01, 12:20 PM
Ki Leader should definitely be a Samurai

Soulknife gets my vote for Psionic Striker

Elemental I imagine to have some sort of casting class from the Al-Quadim books. Though they could easily make a Warlock with an Elemental Pact. :smallamused:

Starbuck_II
2008-06-01, 12:29 PM
Don't forget Druids, Barbarains, and Monks will be Hybrid (tm) in roles.

This means they count as two types:

So Barbarian might be Striker/Defender.
Monk might be Controller/Striker.
etc.

Only the primary (as in first) Core books are 100% one role. That is what designers said.

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 12:41 PM
Don't forget Druids, Barbarains, and Monks will be Hybrid (tm) in roles.

This means they count as two types:

So Barbarian might be Striker/Defender.
Monk might be Controller/Striker.
etc.

Only the primary (as in first) Core books are 100% one role. That is what designers said.

Oh yeah? Could you link to that conversation? :smallsmile:

Vortling
2008-06-01, 12:47 PM
I believe I read that conversation as well but I don't remember where it is. All the stuff I've heard has druids pegged as primal strikers, mainly focusing on the shapeshifting.

Terraoblivion
2008-06-01, 12:53 PM
Shugenja would make sense as an elemental leader while wu jen would fit the role as elemental controller. And i quite hope it is like that, it would be great to have some classes based on Asian concepts, or western perception of Asian concepts at least, brought out of the orientalizing ghetto that the Ki power source appears to be.

kamikasei
2008-06-01, 01:02 PM
Ki
{table]Class Role | Class Name
Defender | Warblade
Striker | Swordsage, Ninja
Controller | Monk
Leader | Crusader
[/table]

I don't see the ToB classes as ki-based and don't see any reason for their names to carry over at all. Warblades are 4e fighters (/warlords). Crusaders are 4e paladins (/clerics or /warlords). Actually traditionally Asian-themed classes would work better here.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-01, 01:04 PM
I don't see the ToB classes as ki-based and don't see any reason for their names to carry over at all. Warblades are 4e fighters (/warlords). Crusaders are 4e paladins (/clerics or /warlords). Actually traditionally Asian-themed classes would work better here.

Kensai is out, though.

Personally, I hope one of the ki classes is a Shaolin monk, preferably a striker or martial controller. Unarmed attacks should get more love.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 01:06 PM
I don't see the ToB classes as ki-based and don't see any reason for their names to carry over at all. Warblades are 4e fighters (/warlords). Crusaders are 4e paladins (/clerics or /warlords). Actually traditionally Asian-themed classes would work better here.

True, but besides ninja, samurai, shugenja, and wu jen, what else is there? Personally, I'm a bit vague on the OA classes. Somehow, it seems strange to me to toss the spellcasting classes into the Ki power source.

Shades of Gray
2008-06-01, 01:10 PM
ki

Striker: Monk+Ninja
Controller: ?
Leader: Samurai (perhaps some sort of ki warlord, screaming out powerful kiais and motivating his group.)
Defender: (Maybe Warblade, or samurai)

Shadow

Striker: Assasin
Leader: Necromancer?
Controller: Illusionist?
Defender: Hexblade/duskblade

Elemental

Striker: Warmage/ sorcerer
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: Wu Jen
Defender: ?

kamikasei
2008-06-01, 01:13 PM
True, but besides ninja, samurai, shugenja, and wu jen, what else is there? Personally, I'm a bit vague on the OA classes. Somehow, it seems strange to me to toss the spellcasting classes into the Ki power source.

Meh, just start running through random terms from Asian languages without regard to their original meaning. I don't imagine Wizards will be taking all that more sophisticated an approach.

Ninja, samurai, monk, shogun, ronin, shinobi, shinigami, shihonage...

ghost_warlock
2008-06-01, 01:15 PM
Striker: Assasin


I see Assassin more likely making an appeance as a lvl 10-20 rogue path.

Daracaex
2008-06-01, 01:18 PM
I see Assassin more likely making an appeance as a lvl 10-20 rogue path.

Seconded. We should keep in mind the possibility of using Paragon Paths for the more specific things.

Terraoblivion
2008-06-01, 01:20 PM
Sohei could be a Ki defender. It is the term for a Japanese warrior monk and it was actually used in the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book for a weird Paladin/Monk fusion. Might be too Divinely oriented to fit with the Ki power source, but it is not like everything has kept too close to the original meaning of the term for WotC anyway...Especially not monk and druid.

hamishspence
2008-06-01, 01:54 PM
Might be wise not to assume it will be a case of Filling up the Slots: needless symmetry is supposed to be what they were getting rid of.

I was hoping Monks would be a divine striker: bringing back aspects of the normal meaning of the word Monk in a western sense, monasteries and all. Fuse Western and Eastern concepts. If ki is in monk might tend to be mostly eastern in theme.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-01, 02:01 PM
Ugh, I hope they don't do stuff like Ninjas and Samurai again.
Really, mostly it's just using the cultural flavor as an excuse for a blatant lack of originality.
And now that all classes have individual powers but only a limited scope (that, however, still allows most of them to fill several roles if the need arises), they shouldn't run out of ideas too soon.

Hell, give me 10 willing playtesters and pay my rent for a month so I can quit my part time job and I'll have a splatbook ready in no time. :smallbiggrin:



Anyway, I thought it may be interesting to speculate how the individual classes work.

So, here are some thoughts:


Arcane Leader - Bard:
I think he may allow allies to regain expended powers (maybe even second winds) and spend healing surges when they (the allies, not the bard) hit an enemy. Apart from that, some illusion and enchantment stuff. Could probably be a passable Controller, too.


Divine Striker - "Inquisitor"/"Crusader":
Yeah, I'll go and quote myself...:smallbiggrin:

Now what I could picture and would like to see would be something like an Inquisitor as a divine striker: instead of focusing on direct damage, he'd single out an opponent and target his powers - either by inhibiting them or by punishing their use.
That could allow them to become some kind of striker/defender (or maybe striker/controller?) hybrid.


Psionic Striker - "Thoughtthief" (or something that doesn't sound like crap):
Invade your enemies' minds, leave them dazed and confused - and then, add insult to injury as you unleash their own powers against them!
Sounds cool, doesn't it? :smallwink:


Psionic Controller - Psion:
Make your enemies fight each other and stuff like that.


Primal Striker - Druid/"Shapeshifter":
I think it was said that Druids would have this shapechange focus, so I'll say they're a striker. They would, however, probably have some interesting spells too (some summons, maybe, something to alter the field of battle), so I guess they'll be pretty versatile, also more than just capable of controlling duty.


Primal Defender - Barbarian:
They could probably have war cries. So, I guess they'll draw their enemies at them or drive them back. I could picture almost anything as their secondary role. If their war cries affect allies, too - leader. If they have particularly strong effects on the targeted enemies - controller. If the barbarian is a strong melee fighter and has some high damage powers as well as war cries that drive the mooks away so the path is clear - striker.


Primal Leader - "Totemist":
Many powers that allow to make an attack that resembles the fighting style of a particular animal and grant you and your allies some adequate characteristics.


Primal Controller - "Shaman" (the name doesn't fit that well, but hey, we need a shaman class):
Call upon the powers of the land, altering the battlefield by creating walls of earth and stone and entangling your enemies in suddenly appearing vines.
Perhaps some spirit summoning, too.


Elemental Controller - "Conjurer":
Um...conjure...elementals. Yeah. :smallbiggrin:


Elemental Leader - "Invoker":
Channel the power of the elements through you and your allies. Means adding some damage boni and resistances, plus some other stuff at later levels - flying for air powers and AC for earth powers, for example.
All while doing appropriate elemental damage, of course.


Shadow Striker - "Shadow Dancer"/"Assassin":
Teleporting, blinding strikes. Maybe some combat advantage stuff, maybe a damage bonus that is only triggered by attacks that catch your enemy by surprise.


Shadow Controller - "Shadowcaster":
Yeah, I expect the same here - a lot of stuff about tactical movement and perception, only aimed at the mooks, not the big bruisers.




I guess I could post that in the thread in the Homebrew boards, too...

JaxGaret
2008-06-01, 02:48 PM
I see Assassin more likely making an appeance as a lvl 10-20 rogue path.

It already is, no? The Shadow Assassin paragon path.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-01, 10:17 PM
How concrete is this info? And where did you see it from?

I pulled it straight from the PHB...