4ed: Calling all Weaponsmiths!

[Azerian Kelimon]

For those lucky enough to have obtained the 4th edition core books early, you'll have seen how very important weapon choice is for a martial or melee character.

If you're like me, you'll probably have felt a bit disappointed. The 3.5 system still reigns, as there are a few clear and obvious choices, and the rest should only be ever taken for fluff reasons. This holds particularly true for Superior weapons. Much like Exotics in 3.5, they're nigh useless. Yes, you have more feats, but it's still wasteful to waste one for a single increase in the damage dice. Thus, I've decided to craft a few unique and useful weapons, and I invite every weapon and armorsmith in the playground to craft new implements of Justice and Destruction.

Before we reach the weapons themselves, there are some principles that need to be ennunciated:

A) For a martial character, weapon dice is EVERYTHING. Most of the powers function on a X [W] + STR/DEX mechanic, and thus, to maximize your damage, you want the biggest dice you can get. To exchange a big or "fat" weapon for a small or "thin" weapon, a big incentive must be provided. Something the other weapon cannot give.

B) Under the Critical Hits header, a very interesting property is mentioned. The name? Precision. Basically, precision enables you to score a critical hit on numbers other than 20. This is, of course, extremely useful, as very nice weapon buffs are activated when you crit.

Now, how to balance Precision? First off, it must be understood that Precision is a powerful tool, a very powerful one. A martial or simple weapon should, under no circumstances, be Precise, unless it has a puny damage dice or some other drawback. Most Precise weapons should fall under the category of Superior.

Second, the Precise number is extremely important. While at first glance, an 11 and a 19 seem to be the same for the purposes of precision, that is not the case. Why? Because, when you roll dice, it tends to favor the average. For a d20, the average is 10.5, thus, you're more likely to roll a 10 or 11 than a 20 or 1. Keep this in mind when making a precise weapon.

C) The special characteristics provided by the books are not the only ones that exist. Feel free to make new characteristics, IF they are balanced.

Now, without further ado, I present a few creations:

A) Name: Fullblade.

Proficiency Bonus: +2.

Damage Dice: 2d6.

Range: -

Price: 50 gp.

Weight: 25 lb.

Group: Heavy Blade, Superior Weapon.

Properties: When brandished without proficiency, a Fullblade user takes a -3 penalty to attack rolls, due to the difficulty of controlling the very heavy blade.

Description: If the Longsword is the queen of swords, and the greatsword is the queen's executioner, the fullblade is the warrior king, the mightiest in the battlefield, unparalleled and undefeatable. While extremely difficult to manipulate and use properly, the tremendous power of a fullblade makes the extra effort worth it.


B) Name: Main-Gauche.

Proficiency Bonus: +3.

Damage Dice: 1d3.

Range: -.

Price: 20 gp.

Weight: 1 lb.

Group: Light Blade, Superior Weapon.

Properties: Parrying, Offhand. A Parrying weapon provides thrice the normal bonus granted by Two Weapon Defense -That is, a +3 Shield bonus to AC and Reflex- when held in the off hand.

Description: A light and reliable weapon, the Main-Gauche is specifically designed to stop blows, not to attack. As such, it sees frequent use as the offhand weapon of martial artists that specialize in Two Weapon Fighting and who miss the defense a trusty shield provides.

C) Name: Whip.

Proficiency Bonus: +3.

Damage Dice: 1d3.

Range: -.

Price: 10 gp.

Weight: 5 lb.

Group: Flail (?), Superior Weapon.

Properties: Superior Reach, Deep Strike, Precision 19, Complex Use, Finesse. A weapon with Superior Reach can attack targets up to 3 squares away from the user. A Deep Strike weapon deals 2 ongoing damage per successful attack (Save Ends one instance) at the beginning of the target's turn. A weapon with Precision 19 deals a critical hit (But not an autohit; The user must hit on the attack to connect with the critical hit) on a roll of 19. A weapon of Complex Use cannot perform Opportunity Attacks. A Finesse weapon always adds DEX to the attack and damage rolls in place of STR.

Description: A tricky weapon to use, the whip is nonetheless popular among finesse fighters, who enjoy the reach and weakening strikes the whip provides.

More to come soon. Ideas are welcomed.

[Daracaex]

First of all, I wholeheartedly support this effort.
Second of all, you made a small mistake. On 1d20, the probability of rolling a 10 is exactly the same as the probability of rolling a 20. What you described only works for multiple dice rolls. For example, if it were 2d10 instead, the max would still be 20, but the probability of rolling two 10's is much smaller than rolling and adding up to ten on both die. This is because there are many different combinations that will lead to 10 with 2 10-sided dice (2+8, 3+7, etc.) There is only one combination that leads to 20: 10+10.

Secondly (EDIT: or thirdly, for those keeping track), I'll get started on some weapons right away. I want my double-longsword back!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, I know that only applies to bell curves.

But considering you're going to roll dozens of d20's over time, the probability of rolling the average slowly inches closer to one.

Hmm... Double weapons? Here's a keyword for them:

Double: A weapon with the Double property can be used both as a primary weapon and an offhand weapon with the Offhand property simultaneously.

Oh, here's the first piece of armor:

Name: Armor Pads (Light).

AC Bonus: +1.

Minimum Enhancement Bonus: -.

Check: +5 Armor bonus to Acrobatics checks to reduce falling damage, +2 checks to Athletics checks to swim due to buoyancy of the pads, +1 to Reflex saves.

Speed: -.

Price: 5 gp.

Weight: 3 lbs.

[Daracaex]

I'm sorry to keep bagging on you like this, but you're still wrong. If I roll 1d20 200 times, by the laws of probability, I'd expect to get 10 of each number on the die. I may be getting this term wrong, but I believe it works that way because each roll is mutually exclusive. Because one roll has nothing to do with the next one, having multiple rolls does not affect the probability of rolling a certain number.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Which is correct. However, over time and over an amount of rolls, the numbers will gravitate towards the average. Yes, you'll still roll 1's and 20's, but most of your rolls are going to be closer to ten and eleven, and if you sum up every roll and then divide by 1/2, you're likely to get the average or a very close number. The average is the most LIKELY result, not the only result.

And then there's bell curve rolls using multiple dice. The average becomes extremely likely then.

[Yakk]

B) Under the Critical Hits header, a very interesting property is mentioned. The name? Precision. Basically, precision enables you to score a critical hit on numbers other than 20. This is, of course, extremely useful, as very nice weapon buffs are activated when you crit.

Now, how to balance Precision? First off, it must be understood that Precision is a powerful tool, a very powerful one. A martial or simple weapon should, under no circumstances, be Precise, unless it has a puny damage dice or some other drawback. Most Precise weapons should fall under the category of Superior.

Second, the Precise number is extremely important. While at first glance, an 11 and a 19 seem to be the same for the purposes of precision, that is not the case. Why? Because, when you roll dice, it tends to favor the average. For a d20, the average is 10.5, thus, you're more likely to roll a 10 or 11 than a 20 or 1. Keep this in mind when making a precise weapon.

No, you fail to understand probability.

A single d20 generates a flat probability curve. P(d20 rolls a 11) = P(d20 rolls a 19) = P(d20 rolls a 1) = 5%, barring the die being loaded.

Do critical hits that miss still connect and do crit damage?
Yes: Low precision numbers > high precision numbers
No, they miss: High precision numbers > low precision numbers
No, they do normal damage: No obvious ordering

[Azerian Kelimon]

Who spoke of a single d20? Precision has to be balanced against the fact that you're rolling dozens, hundreds, possibly THOUSANDS of d20s. Whether it's all at once or over time, it doesn't matter. The average result of those rolls is going to be close to 10.5.

[jindra34]

Who spoke of a single d20? Precision has to be balanced against the fact that you're rolling dozens, hundreds, possibly THOUSANDS of d20s. Whether it's all at once or over time, it doesn't matter. The average result of those rolls is going to be close to 10.5.

yes but each individual event is seperate. Plus you said rolling a specific number not above it or below it. Thus the average does not matter.

[Elana]

Yes, but the average roll has nothing to do with the number coming up.

If I roll a 1, a 2, a 19 and a 20 the average roll is 10.5.

but as you can see, I don't need to roll a 10 for that.


Now if I use a D20 and make 1000 rolls I expect the average to be 10.5, because I should have 50 rolls of each number.

but my 50 rolls of 20 gets averaged with my 50 rolls of 1 to 10.5
my 50 rolls of 19 get averaged with my 50 rolls of 2 to 10.5
...
my 50 rolls of 11 get averaged with my 50 rolls of 10 to 10.5


But still I roll as many 20s as I roll 10s

[Azerian Kelimon]

yes but each individual event is seperate. Plus you said rolling a specific number not above it or below it. Thus the average does not matter.

If I roll 2000d20, the dice results are separate, even if I later add 'em all together. It's the same as rolling 1d20 2000 times.

Now, since we KNOW that over the course of many rolls, the results will tend towards the average (And the numbers nearest to it), Precision 10 and 11 are better than Precision 20 or 1, assuming you hit anyway with 10 or 11.

Essentially, the totality of the rolls you make is a gigantic bell curve. Thus, effects stemming from the middle of the bell curve are going to be more frequent than effects stemming from the extremes of the bell curve, over the course of many rolls.

[jindra34]

If I roll 2000d20, the dice results are separate, even if I later add 'em all together. It's the same as rolling 1d20 2000 times.

Now, since we KNOW that over the course of many rolls, the results will tend towards the average (And the numbers nearest to it), Precision 10 and 11 are better than Precision 20 or 1, assuming you hit anyway with 10 or 11.

Essentially, the totality of the rolls you make is a gigantic bell curve. Thus, effects stemming from the middle of the bell curve are going to be more frequent than effects stemming from the extremes of the bell curve, over the course of many rolls.

a Gaint bell curve sum that reflects naught the numbers that go into it. again no number is more likely to come up more often though you are garunted to roll over a low number more often than a high one.

[Adumbration]

If I roll 2000d20, the dice results are separate, even if I later add 'em all together. It's the same as rolling 1d20 2000 times.

Now, since we KNOW that over the course of many rolls, the results will tend towards the average (And the numbers nearest to it), Precision 10 and 11 are better than Precision 20 or 1, assuming you hit anyway with 10 or 11.

Essentially, the totality of the rolls you make is a gigantic bell curve. Thus, effects stemming from the middle of the bell curve are going to be more frequent than effects stemming from the extremes of the bell curve, over the course of many rolls.

Maths don't work that way. I'm also curious on how do you "KNOW" that they tend towards the average - that's something I've never heard before and doesn't make any sense.

[Elana]

With single dice rolls you don't get a bell curve but a line.

Over the course of any game you will roll just as many 20s then you will roll 10s

You only get curves if you add the results of several dice.

But since you don't add all rolls together you make in the game and then create the average, the chance for rolling a 10 is the same as the chance to roll a 20.

it is 5%.
And it doesn't matter if you do 1 roll, 10 or one gazillion.
5%of your rolls will be a 20. And 5% will be a 10.

(Actually with the standard dice, the chance for a 20 is actuallly slightly higher as that side is lighter by a very small margin. but that difference is neglegtable)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Aha. Thanks for the math lesson, guys. Now, can we focus on what we're here for, which is making new weapons?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Would it be legal under the Open Game License for you to give us a list of weapon properties? I want to make a pair of Wolverine-style claw weapons as well as some knuckles and greaves for unarmed fighters, but I'd like to know what bonuses I could reasonably give them.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Would it be legal under the Open Game License for you to give us a list of weapon properties? I want to make a pair of Wolverine-style claw weapons as well as some knuckles and greaves for unarmed fighters, but I'd like to know what bonuses I could reasonably give them.

I can give you a list of properties and an idea of what they do, but nothing more. Note, however, that of all the keywords I used, the ONLY one that appears in the PHB is offhand. I invented everything else.

Here they go:

Offhand: The weapon can be used as an offhand weapon with ease.

Versatile: One handed weapons that you can use two handed and give you a bonus to damage if you do.

Reach: You can attack enemies up to 2 squares away, but you can only do Opportunity attacks to enemies adjacent to you.

Load X: Action it takes to reload a weapon that lets loose projectiles.

High crit: Extra damage on a crit.

Small: Small creatures can use this weapon like Medium creatures.

Heavy/Light Thrown: This weapon can be thrown and uses STR or Dex, respectively.

That's all of 'em. See why I invented half a dozen keywords for a single weapon?

[Daracaex]

I want to make a pair of Wolverine-style claw weapons as well as some knuckles and greaves for unarmed fighters, but I'd like to know what bonuses I could reasonably give them.

These will probably need new weapon groups and thus different attributes than the other weapons. Probably would be a good idea to add more powers for characters to use with them later. Maybe make an Arms (biological, that is) group that covers any weapon used with your fist or elbow, such as guantlets or some strange elbow blade (armor spikes?), then a Legs group that covers knees and feet. That would make it neat later on for the Monk too, because then he'd be able to pick different powers based on whether his style is upper-body focused or lower-body focused.

[jagadaishio]

I rather like these weapons. However, I feel that a feat is worth the extra damage that most superior weapons provide. After all, the extra damage granted by Weapon Focus (no Specialization in 4e) is not counted as weapon damage, which means it doesn't multiply along with it in martial exploits. If my fighter is going to do 6[W] damage and has Weapon Focus with whatever she chooses, 6d8+1 is not nearly as impressive as 6d12+1. It makes big weapons very worth the feat under this system.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I rather like these weapons. However, I feel that a feat is worth the extra damage that most superior weapons provide. After all, the extra damage granted by Weapon Focus (no Specialization in 4e) is not counted as weapon damage, which means it doesn't multiply along with it in martial exploits. If my fighter is going to do 6[W] damage and has Weapon Focus with whatever she chooses, 6d8+1 is not nearly as impressive as 6d12+1. It makes big weapons very worth the feat under this system.

Of course, but note that most superior weapons offer a single step up in damage, from, for example, 1d6 to 1d8. That's really very minor, in comparison to the expenditure of a feat. Note how the fullblade, which I made as an upgrade from the greatsword, has TWO step ups from dice, and the very big benefit of making vorpal weapons more powerful. And even then, I had to counteract it with no proficiency bonus.

Daracaex: Katars qualify under Light Blades, right? That should be the group of the claws. They're basically the same.

[Daracaex]

I rather like these weapons. However, I feel that a feat is worth the extra damage that most superior weapons provide. After all, the extra damage granted by Weapon Focus (no Specialization YET in 4e) is not counted as weapon damage, which means it doesn't multiply along with it in martial exploits. If my fighter is going to do 6[W] damage and has Weapon Focus with whatever she chooses, 6d8+1 is not nearly as impressive as 6d12+1. It makes big weapons very worth the feat under this system.

:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Sir_Dr_D]

It sounds to me for balance that if a power does [4W] then any bonuses to damage from feats should get multiplied by 4 as well. For those of you who have the PG already, does that sound like a reasonable house rule?

[Cubey]

It sounds to me for balance that if a power does [4W] then any bonuses to damage from feats should get multiplied by 4 as well. For those of you who have the PG already, does that sound like a reasonable house rule?

Overpowered. Power Attack is a feat, remember? Maybe if we houseruled it for every feat but Power Attack, but I'll have to check to make sure the bonuses don't add up to +10 or so even without the houserule.

EDIT: On the OP's weapons. You sure we want the Main Gauche to be more powerful than a shield? Sure, you burn a feat (Two Weapon Defense), but the weapon has its other uses too. Two-Weapon Fighting is one of them. The Ranger's powers are the other. I'd make it just +2.
Is Fullblade two-handed? If so, it's kinda weak. Heavy Flail deals the same damage, has +2 to attack and it's a Military weapon. Same for the Maul.

[Ceiling009]

So far, Unarmed is pretty much improvised, I think. And interestingly enough, I haven't seen anything about opportunity attacks from anything other than powers making you grant it or conditions that make you grant it (there's also a feat...) But there isn't a gauntlet or knuckles category at all yet; and a katar is really more like a dagger that you can attach to your hand in a sense.

[Chumbaniya]

Some of the maths in this thread is hurting my eyes. A fair die roll has an equal probability of landing on any given number. There is nothing more to it than that. The average has nothing to do with the regularity the die will show a given number. I could roll a die 10 times and get 5 10s and 5 11s which would give me the same average as if I rolled 5 1s and 5 20s.

[Chumbaniya]

Maths don't work that way. I'm also curious on how do you "KNOW" that they tend towards the average - that's something I've never heard before and doesn't make any sense.

It's a misinterpretation of the mean value theorem, which states that if you take a collection of identical random variables, as you increase the number of random variables the distribution of the sum of them tends to a normal distribution (a bell curve). It doesn't mean that if you keep rolling a die over and over that numbers nearer the average will come up more often. If you kept rolling a d20 and tallied the results over time, you'd expect to see the same number of occurences for every number, so just a uniform distribution as you have for a single die roll.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Overpowered. Power Attack is a feat, remember? Maybe if we houseruled it for every feat but Power Attack, but I'll have to check to make sure the bonuses don't add up to +10 or so even without the houserule.

EDIT: On the OP's weapons. You sure we want the Main Gauche to be more powerful than a shield? Sure, you burn a feat (Two Weapon Defense), but the weapon has its other uses too. Two-Weapon Fighting is one of them. The Ranger's powers are the other. I'd make it just +2.
Is Fullblade two-handed? If so, it's kinda weak. Heavy Flail deals the same damage, has +2 to attack and it's a Military weapon. Same for the Maul.

Mostly. Consider it,

A) Requires two feats, as it's a superior weapon,

B) Does puny damage, and

C) You can't use it with shield powers. Because of all of that, it's kinda on the WEAK side.

As for the fullblade, yes, I had all of that taken into account. If you take a look at feats, blades have more ways of improving attack bonus than most other weapons (even if they're situational), and if you take a look at powers, blades lag behind the weapons you mentioned. The idea is that the fullblade, to compensate the feat expenditure, puts you up to par with the damage of other fighting styles. D'you think it's still weak after adding all of that? If so, what should I do, up the dice once, to 2d8?

Also, for everyone clamoring for unarmed weapons, here are a pair of gauntlets and a set of claws.

Name: Spiked Gauntlets.

Proficiency Bonus: +3.

Damage Dice: 1d6.

Range: -.

Price: 3 gp.

Weight: 1 lb.

Group: Unarmed, Simple Weapon.

Properties: Offhand.

Description: A favorite of martial artists everywhere, the Spiked gauntlets can inflict vicious wounds upon the enemy.


Name: Bladed Gauntlets.

Proficiency Bonus: +3.

Damage Dice: 1d8.

Range: -.

Price: 10 gp.

Weight: 2 lb.

Group: Unarmed, Military Weapon.

Properties: Offhand.

Description: While the small blades protruding from the knuckles make the Bladed Gauntlets difficult to use, they also make every punch a devastating attack that the enemy will never forget.


Name: Claw.

Proficiency Bonus: +3.

Damage Dice: 1d8.

Range: -.

Price: 20 gp.

Weight: 4 lb.

Group: Unarmed, Superior Weapon.

Properties: Offhand, Deep Strike. A Deep Strike weapon deals 2 ongoing damage per successful attack (Save Ends one instance) at the beginning of the target's turn.

Description: The ultimate weapon for those who prefer to fight with fists as opposed to axes and swords, the claws long fingerlike blades inflict terrible wounds in the hands of a skilled martial artist.


And here are some feats.

Unarmed Fighter:
You have learnt to strike your enemies weakpoints when fighting unarmed.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Str 13, Heroic.
Benefit: Increase the damage dice of any unarmed weapons you use by one step.


Superior Unarmed Combat:
Blades and arrows are no match for the lethal weapons that you call fists.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Str 13, Paragon, Must have Unarmed Fighter.
Benefit: Increase the damage dice of any unarmed weapons you use by two steps. This benefit doesn't stack with that granted by Unarmed Fighter or Unarmed Mastery; They overlap.


Unarmed Mastery:
Your fists have become powerful enough to split mountains.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Str 15, Epic, Must have Unarmed Fighter and Superior Unarmed Combat.
Benefit: Increase the damage dice of any unarmed weapons you use by three steps. This benefit doesn't stack with that granted by Unarmed Fighter or Superior Unarmed Combat; They overlap. Additionally, when you make a melee attack with a weapon belonging to the Unarmed group, you can now score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.

I'll also make a Fighter paragon path and some powers if it's necessary.