GitP Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread

[DracoDei]

Lord Garrath(First read-through of class itself): The focus on pain seems to dilute the theme of the contest a bit. Also, you need MOAR FLUFF! (by which I mean the stuff that has nothing to do directly with game mechanics) for how your appearance changes (if at all, and I recommend it does) when you take on types and subtypes without changing your stats.

[MageSparrowhawk]

I'm in the process of filling out all the additional info....however, I'd like to see what people think of what's there so far.

[dyslexicfaser]

I've got an idea I'll be working on - a homage to the greatest and weirdest optimization build I've ever seen over on the Wizards' CO boards: the Power Rangers.

Now hopefully I can just work out the mechanics.

[ErrantX]

I've got an idea I'll be working on - a homage to the greatest and weirdest optimization build I've ever seen over on the Wizards' CO boards: the Power Rangers.

Now hopefully I can just work out the mechanics.

I was wondering if someone was going to go all the way and try to make a Power Ranger :P

-X

[dyslexicfaser]

I do like the Half-dragon Ascendant, Mage. I would say that a new ability every level plus full spellcasting might be overpowered, but... well, first you have to be a half-dragon, and that's enough of a drawback as it is. The way you did SR and DR did kind of confuse me, though. Racial HD?

By the by, is there a list of MM constructs somewhere? The Power Rangers need a capstone ability... heh.

[Llama231]

Whoa, where did a 9 page thread suddenly sprout out of?

[MageSparrowhawk]

The racial HD that I'm referring to is basically your level in the class, because that's 1) what levels in the class provide, 2) what those abilities tend to be based off of normally (e.g. breath weapon), and 3) it fits flavor-wise.

[MageSparrowhawk]

:bump: for lots of new stuff on mine.

hey, what do ya'll forum-goers (I'm sorry for that phrase) think of the capstone ability? Weak/OP/good?

[Ascension]

I want to enter a class revolving around gradually becoming treelike. It seems like I ought to make it a druid PrC, but I really don't want to make a caster class. I'm thinking something more Bear Warriorish, something with a closer-to-nature feel without actual divine magic. Does that sound like a workable idea?

[ErrantX]

I think it's a great idea.

The theme does not require the character to be a spellcaster. Bear warrior is a great example of a non spellcasting transmutational class.

-X

[boomwolf]

Working hard on my lycan PrC (Silvermoon Hunter. an anti-lycan lycan PrC)

not sure it will be done in time, or be able to beat the existing competition, but I'm planning to give them a fight. with fang and claw as one might say. (doing homebrews while on the army is hard work...not alot of time...)

[ErrantX]

Working hard on my lycan PrC (Silvermoon Hunter. an anti-lycan lycan PrC)

not sure it will be done in time, or be able to beat the existing competition, but I'm planning to give them a fight. with fang and claw as one might say. (doing homebrews while on the army is hard work...not alot of time...)

Well if you have questions or need to ask, obviously, this is a good thread to do it on. You've still got 18 days, friend, lots of time :) Good luck though, that sounds quite cool. I hope to see it.

-X

[boomwolf]

Everyone else got 18 days, but I got a computer only on: 6,7,12,13 and 14 of the month (26,27,28 too but that's too late)

The IDF is sometimes so troublesome...

Questions I am lucky to have none, its just a matter of making it good enough to be deserved to be posted in the competition. (i totally scrapped my first idea that was something completely different because it was simply not good enough.)

Well then, back to work. nearly finished the crunchy parts, only a little remains there. then finishing to write down fluff, and the last thing is the encounter.


BTW-you might want to update the main post of this thread, its out-of-date.

[Mr.Moron]

I put up a very primitive version of my idea. A master blacksmith who can fuse with his weapons & armor for short periods of time. As well as having some other abilties.

It hasn't been checked at all for balance, spelling, grammar or pretty much anything else but the structure of it's abilties. So it could probably use a good once over, or twice over. I tend to overload my classes, so chances are it could use some a good deal of pruning.

[Bhu]

well crap my initial concept isnt panning out so well. I'll need to do another one

[ErrantX]

Just a reminder to everyone, we've got just under two weeks left on the contest, I've seen a few good entries come through and I'm hoping to see a few more at least :)

Hey Krimm, what happened to you putting something in? :smallwink:

Happy Homebrewing!
-X

[boomwolf]

God i hope a sample encounter is not necessary, i don't think I'll make it in time.

I got 3 hours till I have to go to sleep, and when i wake up (6 hours later...) I go back to my base for 2 week, with no internet. and I got tons of other things I need to do until then... (like packing, and eating, and shower and study for my tests. arg!!!)

Well, that's all I managed to do in my short time. what do you think?

[Mr.Moron]

God i hope a sample encounter is not necessary, i don't think I'll make it in time.

I got 3 hours till I have to go to sleep, and when i wake up (6 hours later...) I go back to my base for 2 week, with no internet. and I got tons of other things I need to do until then... (like packing, and eating, and shower and study for my tests. arg!!!)

Well, that's all I managed to do in my short time. what do you think?

Control Shape: Where does this skill come from? I'm not over familiar with were-stuff, but as far as I know it isn't core. If there is an external source for this, it should be cited. If there isn't I don't see where you've defined the skill in the entry.

Willing Transformation: This is more of a flavor bonus than a strict mechanical advantage. Flavor is good, but so are fun abilties. Since this is the entry level and the class gets all good saves it doesn't feel as dead as it might otherwise. Still, this could be paired with something a bit more dynamic.

Lycanhunter Claws: Even as a bonus that applied to all enemies, this would make for a bland class feature. Especially when it's standing on it's own in half the classes levels. This can be replicated or done better with low-level spells, or a magic item. Enhancement bonuses gained in those ways aren't limited to one class of enemies either. This really isn't much of a feature at all, in my opinion.

Track the Beast: This class is very specific and while that's not a bad thing, especially for a prestige class when you specialize you bonuses need to be that much better in your area of specialty. Again, this is something that would be a fairly trivial bonus if it applied against all enemies.

Also, when tracking by scent you can choose to make a wisdom check instead of a survival check ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent ). How does it interact with those?

Silver Resistance: DR is nice, but unless someone is specifically hunting for you with silver weapons.. it's probably not going to come up. Not much tends to just incidentally have silver weapons on them. So, this makes for a fairly situational ability. Maybe if it tweaked your DR in more likely scenarios a bit more, it'd feel more solid.

Reverse the Curse: This is almost entirely flavor. It offers little in the way of real benefit to the someone taking levels in the class. It feels a bit like a dead level to be honest.

Darkest Hour: The power of this is really hard to evaluate. It scales with HD so, that's nice. However the DC is charisma-based, and this is a bruiser class you probably won't have the best charisma score. It's meaningless against even matches, but if the effect gets off absolutely a game-ender against a group of mooks. I think you're headed in the right with this direction. I'd tone down the severity of the fear effect overall, and give it another even lesser effect against things closer to your own power level.

Right now it's just useless in certain situations, and overwhelmingly powerful in others. I really feel it should be more consitant.



Overall: The class is shaky mechanically, I think. Given their narrow field of application, the features just don't do enough.

Fluff-Wise, it needs more and it needs something to feel different. Maybe it's just me but I think "Were_____" vs Were____" just feels a bit too predictable for a transformation theme. That doesn't mean it can't work, but it needs something extra to really make it sparkle.



On a similar note to all this:
Anyone have any thoughts on the class I submitted. I still need to tweak it of course (do a balance pass, fix that one really wordy ability) but someones quick thoughts would be nice.

[boomwolf]

Control Shape is part of the lycanthrope entry in the MM. it SHOULD be known to everyone using a lycanthrope character.

"Willing Transformation" might sound fluff-only, but when the DM plays right, alignment change matter. suddenly turning from lawful-good to chaotic-evil results in a massive behavioral change. lycanthropes are normally blood-thirsty monsters, and the entire class relies on not having to be one in order to change. so even tough mostly fluff, its necessary.

The fear ability of "Darkest Hour", As I assume you didn't notice, is a replica of the dragon's "Frightful Presence"

In many things you said "its too narrow", but keep in mind many "Anti-X" PrCs are out there at wizard's books, and they all have situational abilities. this class WAS designed to be a specialized PrC, and not a "everybody does it" PrC. however some of your points are well made, so I tuned him up a little against all favored enemies, giving a bigger range of effectiveness, while keeping lycanthropes the main enemy. (you CAN have more then 1 after all.)


Now for your class, I fear it suffers from over-complexity. it took me awhile to figure out what is going on there and how things work, and when I did then I realized many things there are way over the edge in power level. Tough Body gives you +7 Con at level 20, Resistant Body gives you SR 32 at that point and Durable Body supply a DR 10/-, these three without everything else he gets make him quite powerful, but add in some attack-improving abilities, the ability to make magic items at rapid speed without wasting feats or knowing spells, AND being immune to pretty much every type-based hostile spell, and you turn every fighter who was willing to waste some skill points and a single feat (not like a fighter is missing any) into a highly-flexible, item-maker, nigh-unkillable monster construct something, even if for a short time. (ho wait, only 1 minute recharge. so you just gotta hide for 10 rounds before you start the rampage all over again.

Its not that its BAD, its jest overpowered, many abilities are strong when you first acquire them and the then scale up nearly automatically as you level up. and every time you face a challenge you cannot defeat you can make up the perfect-for-the-situation magic item out of thin air if you are willing to give up some xp.

Now, if I were a munchkin, I would have taken a single level in the class at level 6 and start forging myself epic magic items, then easily beating should-be-hard opponents, and sticking to easy fights, get tons of xp, and make even more far-over-my-level magic items until I got the absolute best magic items possible, and THEN start to level myself up, quite likely in this very class for the absorbed bonuses you get at high levels from the transformation.

On another note, your class is fluff-less. you gotta add some.

[Mr.Moron]

Control Shape is part of the lycanthrope entry in the MM. it SHOULD be known to everyone using a lycanthrope character.

That's good. As I said, I'm not overly familiar with Lycanthropy rules.



"Willing Transformation" might sound fluff-only, but when the DM plays right, alignment change matter. suddenly turning from lawful-good to chaotic-evil results in a massive behavioral change. lycanthropes are normally blood-thirsty monsters, and the entire class relies on not having to be one in order to change. so even tough mostly fluff, its necessary.


That's nice. But it could be paired paired with something else. After all if you were played someone already in-line with your lycan alignment it does nothing.



The fear ability of "Darkest Hour", As I assume you didn't notice, is a replica of the dragon's "Frightful Presence"

I didn't notice. Even if it is, my feelings on the ability stand. It just doesn't feel quite right. I think a direct port of a dragon ability just might not be the best choice.



In many things you said "its too narrow", but keep in mind many "Anti-X" PrCs are out there at wizard's books, and they all have situational abilities. this class WAS designed to be a specialized PrC, and not a "everybody does it" PrC. however some of your points are well made, so I tuned him up a little against all favored enemies, giving a bigger range of effectiveness, while keeping lycanthropes the main enemy. (you CAN have more then 1 after all.)

I said that specialization was fine. It's just when you're as specialized as he is, you really need to shine in your area of specialization. He spends 1/2 his levels getting enhancements bonuses to natural attacks. Anyone can get this with low-level spells or magic items, and against everyone. His bonus against lycans needs to be exceptional. Not "Greater Magic Fang".
As written he is marginally better against lycanthrophes. Hes giving up a lot of power in other areas, he needs to turn lycanthrophes into a fine fur-laden slurry.



Now for your class, I fear it suffers from over-complexity.

Noted. I'll look into simplifying the mechanic. What abilties specifically do you feel are hard to use?


it took me awhile to figure out what is going on there and how things work, and when I did then I realized many things there are way over the edge in power level.

Certainly possible, i haven't done my balance pass on the all of the formulas yet. I'll try to tackle each of your cocerns one by one.



Tough Body gives you +7 Con at level 20,


This feels reasonable to me honestly, though I dislike the odd number. I'll find a way to round the formula so it winds up being 6. Bigger bonuses are available for longer periods from other classes. If you have specific thoughts on why a CON bonus of this size is overpowered at 20, I'm certainly open.



Resistant Body gives you SR 32 at that point

Agreed. This is unintended. I meant for the formula to grant ~20-24 SR at level 20. I must have left the +12 in from another version.



Durable Body supply a DR 10/-,

Frankly looking at this, DR 10/- feels a little underwhelming to be honest. At 20 you're going to have a lot of magic being thrown around, and anything (that should be) throwing physical attacks is certainly going to be hitting for big numbers.



but add in some attack-improving abilities


He has some. Most of his Forge-Power abilties are offensive. Battle Arm, Chain Arm & Molten Arm all lend themselves to offense. Maybe it isn't enough, I'm not sure. I had a hard time coming up with offensive abilties that weren't just hit point damage. Hit point damage is as dull as things get, especially on a melee class.



the ability to make magic items at rapid speed without wasting feats or knowing spells

I'll tone down the speed ability, if I get other people feeling that's too good. However, I don't think making items as a non-caster really constitutes any advantage as being a non-caster already constitutes the largest disadvantage in the game.



AND being immune to pretty much every type-based hostile spell,

Hmm. You're right on this, it wasn't really I wanted the ability to go. I'm going to limit it to buffs & friendly spells. It was mostly intended to allow him to be repaired by spells that target objects, and mostly as a matter of fluff. I went about it the wrong way.



and you turn every fighter who was willing to waste some skill points and a single feat (not like a fighter is missing any) into a highly-flexible, item-maker, nigh-unkillable monster construct something, even if for a short time.

Nigh-Unkillable sounds like a bit of an exaggeration to me. Yes, he has access to some nice abilties. But energy damage and things that target his will save aren't really bothered by the classes abilties. The SR is over inflated and turned down.

Thematically though, the class is supposed to have a very burst of power.



(ho wait, only 1 minute recharge. so you just gotta hide for 10 rounds before you start the rampage all over again.

Who gives up 10 rounds in combat? Really? Still, the intention is that it's usable once per encounter. I just didn't want to explictly word it that way since "Encounter" doesn't seem to be a definition used much outside Tome of Battle.

I'll just change it to once per encounter, so as to totally squash the issue.



many abilities are strong when you first acquire them and the then scale up nearly automatically as you level up.


This much is intentional. I think static abilties you "Grow out" of, just plain stink. If the scaling is out of whack, it can certainly be fixed. However, the class abilties are supposed to grow with you, so they remain relevant.



and every time you face a challenge you cannot defeat you can make up the perfect-for-the-situation magic item out of thin air if you are willing to give up some xp.


Again, you're only supposed to be able to make Armor, Weapons (with DMs permission, a limited number of armor-like weapons). He can't use it to pop out staves, potions, gloves, rings. I'll clarify the limits, and again if someone else agrees on the speed issue dump that.



Now, if I were a munchkin, I would have taken a single level in the class at level 6 and start forging myself epic magic items

You can't do that. The enhancement bonus of items you work on is limited by your class level (not your character level, I'll make sure that's clear). With 1 level in the class, you can only make +1 weapons and armor. I'll clarify that at class level 6 you can't break the standard rules on enhancement bonuses/type to get epic items.

It's good you pointed it out. That's kind of stupid abuses that can slip through designs, and have "Unintended Results" as people put it.



, then easily beating should-be-hard opponents, and sticking to easy fights, get tons of xp, and make even more far-over-my-level magic items until I got the absolute best magic items possible, and THEN start to level myself up, quite likely in this very class for the absorbed bonuses you get at high levels from the transformation.


The crafting ambiguities will be fixed to eliminate any potential abuses like this.



On another note, your class is fluff-less. you gotta add some.

I know. The fluff section is still empty. I'm still working on it.

[Frog Dragon]

I'm working on a PRC for this one. The farshaper. A shapechanger who's seen the far realms and is going to share his/her experiences firsthand. Also raving mad.

[DracoDei]

Looking a bit grim for getting my class whipped into the correct format (BBCode vs MS Word, not to mention turned from a Base class into a PrC) and finished by the deadline. If it comes to that will delete my skeleton and then (hopefully) post the base-class version in a seperate thread at some later time.

[Mr.Moron]

I figured I'd chime in on the other classes.

Excruciator

Pre-Reqs: There is no reason to require Improved Toughness over standard toughness. Improved Toughness counts as Toughness for pre-reqs, and allowing standard Toughness allows people without sources including to qualify.

Sanguine Transformation:

The mechanic feels solid, and the transformation is nice. The undead form doesn't quite seem to be as useful as the cost indicates, but I could be missing something at first glance.

Sanguine Empowerment:

Allowing a choice between Strength & Dexterity off the bat would make for a nice bit of flexibility in builds, without strictly affecting power.

Sanguine Shield:

Dispel magic can affect it, but how? What's it's caster level for dispel checks, does it have one? This is a solid ability for what you trade in.

Cripple:

This is nice. It's a solid debuff, that scales with the number of hits you have. The 1/2 BaB keeps the number of hits from getting out of control. Something feels off, but I can't put my finger on it. In any case, solid ability.

Sanguine Adaptation:

This is a bit reliant with what you have on hand, if I'm understanding it correctly that is. If you've got a handy supply of aberrations or dragons on hand, this could be very cool indeed. If you don't it's kind of useless.

Of course, the open-ended nature might wind up gaining some abilities with unintended consequences, but that's a fault that's hard to avoid.

I think I might pair with this with something a bit less situational.

Sanguine Feast:

I'd probably drop the 'wasted' part. The once per round limitation is enough to keep it from making you immortal. Besides someone is most likley to use this on their most accurate attack of the round, they've missed out on enough if they wiff with it. They may as well get another short at the class abilties.

Excruciate:

On-save damage should scale, other than that it's fine.

Fluff: Can't say it's exactly my favorite style of stuff, but I can see what you're doing with it. You've succeeded in that regard.


Overall: Power wise it feels fine overall, it's not too strong, not to weak. It falls more to the conservative side of power, but not cripplingly so.

My biggest criticism is that it offers little in the way of new actions. You can transform, but beyond that the class is 90% passive bonuses. Other than Sanguine Adapation (which won't always offer new powers) it still leaves you with "Attack" as the sum of your options. With the low BaB and reliance on on-hit effects, even that is made somewhat less dynamic.

The class has space for additions in the way of active abilties. Since It's on the lower end of the balanced range, you probably wouldn't even have to take anything out to compensate.


Half-Dragon Ascendant:

Spellcasting: Normally any full-progression caster class sends of flashing red alarm bells in my head. Since if you've got that and features you're adding to what is by several orders of magnitude, the strongest mechanic in the game.

However, the limitation on spell types and mandating the half-dragon template basically makes this a 7/10 PrC, which is more reasonable. I mention all this because on exception warrants consideration: LA Buyoff. Still, that's an outside case and probably shouldn't be too troublesome.

Feats: The feats are outside core. It might be nice to provide a source & page number for easy reference.

Dragon Essence: This is good, it keeps the breath weapon BC relevant. However it does nothing to keep the damage relevant. That seems a shame, you've got improved breath later but it's a bit of a bland increase. I think the class might be well served by ditching Improved Breath and giving him a means to burn spell slots to up his breath weapon. I think that'd feel like a very natural mechanic, given there are feats to turn spell slots into breath weapons.

Warrents clarification that you don't get Dragon-Type Attacks bonus from

Scaled Armor: At 14, the Armor Bonus just seems too high.

Lesser Keen Senses: Nice little bonus. No other thoughts.

Spell Resistance: This mostly Okay. Again, it'd feel too strong with LA buyoff, but that's an outside case.

Damage Reduction: This is going to be flat-out bypassed, so it's a bit of a non-feature. However, it'd be fun to laugh at any annoying runts that attacked you. With the casting progression, every ability doesn't have to be a winner. I like this here.

Improved Breath Weapon: Too static. See Dragon Essence.

Additional Limb(s): Fun. At this point, it isn't giving you anything you can't get our of your casting.. so it's mostly freeing up spells known. Very good placement on this one.

Greater Keen Senses: Another small bonus that keeps things from being dull, without a real power increase. Good idea, given the casting progression.

Attack Form Improvement: I'm not sure I like this. This is three new attacks. With the casting there are ways to abuse that. Badly. Then again with casting there are ways to abuse anything. I think it might be nice to see some sort of limitation on this, there are few combos that would just be really brutal with this.

Draconic Ascension: More/Less my same feeling on Attack Form improvement.

It says once per day, and then it says you can split the rounds up as you wish. That's confusing. Needs clarification.

Overall: Other than the Attack Form Improvement & Draconic Ascension this all feels very solid. The Breath issue isn't major, since it'll probably always be inferior to spells, but it's worth looking at.

[MageSparrowhawk]

I figured I'd chime in on the other classes....
Half-Dragon Ascendant:

Spellcasting: Normally any full-progression caster class sends of flashing red alarm bells in my head. Since if you've got that and features you're adding to what is by several orders of magnitude, the strongest mechanic in the game.

However, the limitation on spell types and mandating the half-dragon template basically makes this a 7/10 PrC, which is more reasonable. I mention all this because on exception warrants consideration: LA Buyoff. Still, that's an outside case and probably shouldn't be too troublesome.
I see what you're saying. I'd like to bring up the fact that even at 20th (excluding LA buyoff...which hadn't even occurred to me...I've never personally seen it used) this only brings the caster up to effectively 14th level, and with it being sorcerer levels, that's just barely 7th level spells. Like I said before though, I didn't even think of LA buyoff...but as you point out, it's not like it would be much of an issue.


Feats: The feats are outside core. It might be nice to provide a source & page number for easy reference.
good call...*goes to note*


Dragon Essence: This is good, it keeps the breath weapon BC relevant. However it does nothing to keep the damage relevant. That seems a shame, you've got improved breath later but it's a bit of a bland increase. I think the class might be well served by ditching Improved Breath and giving him a means to burn spell slots to up his breath weapon. I think that'd feel like a very natural mechanic, given there are feats to turn spell slots into breath weapons.
I see what you're saying...are you suggesting burning a spell slot for an additional number of dice equal to the spell level?


Warrants clarification that you don't get Dragon-Type Attacks bonus from
huh?


Scaled Armor: At 14, the Armor Bonus just seems too high.
Remember, this is non-enchantable, and even then, is only one more than +5 fullplate. I did that to make it worthwhile, but still not too great.


Lesser Keen Senses: Nice little bonus. No other thoughts.
I figured that since wyrmlings get blindsense, half-dragons should too.


Spell Resistance: This mostly Okay. Again, it'd feel too strong with LA buyoff, but that's an outside case.
*nod* understood


Damage Reduction: This is going to be flat-out bypassed, so it's a bit of a non-feature. However, it'd be fun to laugh at any annoying runts that attacked you. With the casting progression, every ability doesn't have to be a winner. I like this here.
cool. I've never really understood why dragon DR is x/magic...but oh well....


Improved Breath Weapon: Too static. See Dragon Essence.
yup...I'll think about some other ways of messing with this...


Additional Limb(s): Fun. At this point, it isn't giving you anything you can't get our of your casting.. so it's mostly freeing up spells known. Very good placement on this one.
I'm glad you think so :smallbiggrin:


Greater Keen Senses: Another small bonus that keeps things from being dull, without a real power increase. Good idea, given the casting progression.
as above...mostly just finishing out the previous step.


Attack Form Improvement: I'm not sure I like this. This is three new attacks. With the casting there are ways to abuse that. Badly. Then again with casting there are ways to abuse anything. I think it might be nice to see some sort of limitation on this, there are few combos that would just be really brutal with this.
technically, it's two new attacks, and one alternate attack option. You can't use the tail sweep as part of a full attack. However, I do see your point....I'll look into it...


Draconic Ascension: More/Less my same feeling on Attack Form improvement.

It says once per day, and then it says you can split the rounds up as you wish. That's confusing. Needs clarification.
will fix


Overall: Other than the Attack Form Improvement & Draconic Ascension this all feels very solid. The Breath issue isn't major, since it'll probably always be inferior to spells, but it's worth looking at.
Why thank you...and I'll see what I can do to fix the issues you bring up.

[Mr.Moron]

I see what you're saying...are you suggesting burning a spell slot for an additional number of dice equal to the spell level?


Something like that. Damage Dice, Direct Damage boost. You know, whatever. Scaling abilties are just plain more fun than static ones. It's never fun to outgrow an ability. Especially one as cool as breathing fire.



huh?


Sorry about that, awkward wording on my part. I just meant clarify that class levels counting as Dragon Hit Dice doesn't cause Dragon-Hit Dice bonuses to override the class table. Your intent seems pretty clear to me, but it could possibly wind up fuzzy to some.

[MageSparrowhawk]

Good call....and don't forget, that's breathing fire, lightning, acid, evil shadows...etc. :smallbiggrin:


oooh...yeah, I see what you mean....any suggestions on how to clear that up?

edit: before I forget, how does the fluff look?

[Mr.Moron]

Good call....and don't forget, that's breathing fire, lightning, acid, evil shadows...etc. :smallbiggrin:


oooh...yeah, I see what you mean....any suggestions on how to clear that up?

Soemthing along the lines of "This treatment is only for the purposes of abilties that refer to racial hit dice. For Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Skill Points refer to the class table".



edit: before I forget, how does the fluff look?

I like it. While there is perhaps an overabundance of dragon-related material, that makes it hard to really stick out, lets face it: Dragons are cool. The fact that you have to commune and relate to your dragon-relatives is actually a somewhat refreshing change of pace, most half-dragon stuff I've read has more to do with them being outsiders than expected. It's not anything revolutionary (but then again what is) but I think it works well with what you've got here.

[MageSparrowhawk]

I like it. While there is perhaps an overabundance of dragon-related material, that makes it hard to really stick out, lets face it: Dragons are cool. The fact that you have to commune and relate to your dragon-relatives is actually a somewhat refreshing change of pace, most half-dragon stuff I've read has more to do with them being outsiders than expected. It's not anything revolutionary (but then again what is) but I think it works well with what you've got here.

I'm glad to hear that...and I totally agree, Dragons are cool. :smallbiggrin:

I did quite a bit of editing and revision. What do you think? I fixed/noted the places you pointed out, as well as attempting to clear up what most of the abilities do more accurately.

Oh, I was wondering, do you have any thoughts on the 'draconic themed' spells I mention in the spellcasting section? I've been debating on whether or not to add any more options in, as they have quite a few choices (and you only have to pick half your spells of that type anyway).

[Mr.Moron]

I'm glad to hear that...and I totally agree, Dragons are cool. :smallbiggrin:

I did quite a bit of editing and revision. What do you think? I fixed/noted the places you pointed out, as well as attempting to clear up what most of the abilities do more accurately.

Oh, I was wondering, do you have any thoughts on the 'draconic themed' spells I mention in the spellcasting section? I've been debating on whether or not to add any more options in, as they have quite a few choices (and you only have to pick half your spells of that type anyway).

I'm not left with any major criticisms.

As for the spellcasting, I'm neutral. It probably winds up limiting to the caster to more blaster-type stuff, but sorcs often do that anyway. While blasting is the weakest of things you can do with spells, it's still a very solid use of actions in the grand scheme things, I don't think it makes a huge difference either way, so if you like the flavor of it I'd say leave it as is.

[MageSparrowhawk]

Alright, great. I'm gonna think about allowing any spells specifically noted as Sorcerer only...and maybe anything that has the word Dragon in it somewhere...but I'll have to look and see what that actually includes.

how about minor ones? I'd like to clean it up as much as I can.

Also, is your Avi of Alton Brown? If so, that gives you +2 on the win scale. maybe even +3 :smallbiggrin:

[Mr.Moron]

Alright, great. I'm gonna think about allowing any spells specifically noted as Sorcerer only...and maybe anything that has the word Dragon in it somewhere...but I'll have to look and see what that actually includes.

how about minor ones? I'd like to clean it up as much as I can.


Anything else would be just talking about how I'd do a similarly theme class, rather than offering suggestions on how to tweak your implementation. I think I've offered everything useful I have, short of commenting on some major overhaul you decide to make.



Also, is your Avi of Alton Brown? If so, that gives you +2 on the win scale. maybe even +3 :smallbiggrin:

Yes. Indeed it is. It really is a shame what happened to his hair. *shudder*.

[Lord_Gareth]

Mr. Moron (y'know, the irony in your name must either be the world's deepest coincidence or the extremely justified pride), would you do me the honor of looking over my entry and giving it a nice swift PEACH in the ass?

[Mr.Moron]

Mr. Moron (y'know, the irony in your name must either be the world's deepest coincidence or the extremely justified pride), would you do me the honor of looking over my entry and giving it a nice swift PEACH in the ass?

Already did, see #273. I did yours at the start of the post I did the Ascendent did.

Short Version: What you have, for the most part is very nice. But it could just plain use more. Especially in the way of actions. It's a melee class with almost all passive abilties. That's snooze-ville man.

[Lord_Gareth]

I figured I'd chime in on the other classes.

Excruciator

Pre-Reqs: There is no reason to require Improved Toughness over standard toughness. Improved Toughness counts as Toughness for pre-reqs, and allowing standard Toughness allows people without sources including to qualify.

I'm of the opinion that this feat you call Toughness does not exist, and that, in fact, Improved Toughness was printed in its place. The "Improved" in its name is the only problem with my theory :smalltongue:


Sanguine Transformation:

The mechanic feels solid, and the transformation is nice. The undead form doesn't quite seem to be as useful as the cost indicates, but I could be missing something at first glance.

While undead, in addition to the full host of immunities you have and the benefit, you don't have a con score, basically delaying when you "actually" end up paying for the transformation.


Sanguine Empowerment:

Allowing a choice between Strength & Dexterity off the bat would make for a nice bit of flexibility in builds, without strictly affecting power.

Good idea!


Sanguine Shield:

Dispel magic can affect it, but how? What's it's caster level for dispel checks, does it have one? This is a solid ability for what you trade in.

It doesn't have one; it's dispelled automatically.


Cripple:

This is nice. It's a solid debuff, that scales with the number of hits you have. The 1/2 BaB keeps the number of hits from getting out of control. Something feels off, but I can't put my finger on it. In any case, solid ability.

?


Sanguine Adaptation:

This is a bit reliant with what you have on hand, if I'm understanding it correctly that is. If you've got a handy supply of aberrations or dragons on hand, this could be very cool indeed. If you don't it's kind of useless.

Of course, the open-ended nature might wind up gaining some abilities with unintended consequences, but that's a fault that's hard to avoid.

I think I might pair with this with something a bit less situational.

Something less situational? Like what?

As far as the ability's intent, it was actually meant to be used when enemies of the appropriate type were nearby, though I suppose summons could work too...


Sanguine Feast:

I'd probably drop the 'wasted' part. The once per round limitation is enough to keep it from making you immortal. Besides someone is most likley to use this on their most accurate attack of the round, they've missed out on enough if they wiff with it. They may as well get another short at the class abilties.

Good point.


Excruciate:

On-save damage should scale, other than that it's fine.

The only reason it would scale would be for epic levels, and I've yet to see a damage-based class feature that continues to scale that high.


Fluff: Can't say it's exactly my favorite style of stuff, but I can see what you're doing with it. You've succeeded in that regard.

Thanks!



Overall: Power wise it feels fine overall, it's not too strong, not to weak. It falls more to the conservative side of power, but not cripplingly so.

My biggest criticism is that it offers little in the way of new actions. You can transform, but beyond that the class is 90% passive bonuses. Other than Sanguine Adapation (which won't always offer new powers) it still leaves you with "Attack" as the sum of your options. With the low BaB and reliance on on-hit effects, even that is made somewhat less dynamic.

The class has space for additions in the way of active abilties. Since It's on the lower end of the balanced range, you probably wouldn't even have to take anything out to compensate.

I shall ponder this and get on it!

[Mr.Moron]

While undead, in addition to the full host of immunities you have and the benefit, you don't have a con score, basically delaying when you "actually" end up paying for the transformation.

Ahh! Yeah, I totally didn't catch on to the con score thing.



It doesn't have one; it's dispelled automatically.

Ok. That was just unclear. It should probably be explictly stated.




?

I wish could be more specific. I'll think about it some more and see if I can nail down whatever's causing the "Somethings not quite right.." feeling.




Something less situational? Like what?

As far as the ability's intent, it was actually meant to be used when enemies of the appropriate type were nearby, though I suppose summons could work too...


I don't know. I anything that fits with the pain theme. This class has room for abilties that work all the time. Something that can only be used on certain types is fine, but this class isn't doesn't have a dedicated "Hunter" theme to it, so this feels like a bit of dead-level when you aren't facing those types.

I think something that could be used in any situation, wouldn't really be helpful here.






The only reason it would scale would be for epic levels, and I've yet to see a damage-based class feature that continues to scale that high.

Lots of things scale. Spells, Psionics, even some ToB maneuvers scale Burning Blade, etc... (though I know that's not generally the rule).

What makes ToB nice is that maneuvers are mostly static, your abilties aren't (at least not fully), because you get new maneuvers as you level.

This is a one-time thing, not a whole system so you can't count on shiny upgrades to get around the fact the benefit is static.

Abilities that contribute indirectly to damage scale, such as Dark Knowledge which can add damage buffs or hit bonuses based on a skill check (it's largely what I based my class' "Forge Power" off of).

That melee class abilties not found in a table largely don't scale, is a horrible design flaw in 3.5 as a whole. It's part of makes non-table users so, darn... lackluster in many respects. Heck, the reason why Power Attack is such a wonderful feat is that it actually grows with your base attack bonus! It's only pseudo-scaling, but it's something.

Just because "Ability not found in class table" don't generally scale, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

If you really feel like you need a printed precedent for a melee ability off-table that scales: Smite Evil. That scales, and it's almost a decent feature because of it. It shouldn't be limited by times/day and be wasted on a miss. But that's another thread.

Basically, I believe theres no need to stick with (what I feel) is bad design just because the printed material does it. Scaling isn't going to make the ability overpowered, it'll just keep that once-per-encounter damage juicy as you go up in levels. If you're spending 10 levels to get something, it shouldn't become boring (or even less exciting) in another 5.

[Lord_Gareth]

Thing is, though, the 10d10 is the same as saying, "1d10/level," which invariably ends up maxing at - wait for it - ten dice for all other PrCs with a similar feature. Fact is, nobody is going to take a PrC past epic level unless they're really into their Death Attack.

[Mr.Moron]

Thing is, though, the 10d10 is the same as saying, "1d10/level," which invariably ends up maxing at - wait for it - ten dice for all other PrCs with a similar feature. Fact is, nobody is going to take a PrC past epic level unless they're really into their Death Attack.

Well it doesn't have to scale to the class exactly. Heck, just tying it to weapon damage would be nice. Tying it to some other investment you make outside the class (and ability modifier, a skill check etc..) would be nice as well. I realize it's not exactly conventional, I'm just so sure the standard conventions are well.. very good at all.

For example, I might make the ability deal 2x standard weapon damage if it didn't outright kill. It's not the only possible implementation, but I think it would be a nice one. It grows with your weapon damage, but never gets better than an instant death attack (the primary effect).Unless you're already killing things in 2 hits, in which case.. why waste your instant death ability? (EDIT: Actually that wind up making it require an attack roll. Still though, the general principle remains the same)

There certainly are stronger swift action abilties in the game than melee x2, so you're hardly breaking any power barriers.

Look at the classes other abilties. They scale similarly. Cripples potential ability damage/round grows with your number of attacks and the maximum damage increases as enemies have larger numbers and thus a larger 1/2 mark. Given an arbitrarily high level, you could start picking up natural attacks or using spells and other abilties to get more attacks per round, even with you can't get more from BaB .

It caps out at a certain point I suppose, but for the most part you can keep it growing with you. Even a static sneak attack damage number is like this. You don't really have to extend things into epic, I don't my classes ability DCs only go up to values I'd expect at 20.

Changing to undead for example scales, because immunities block out ever more powerful (higher DC) effects. It grows with the potential of what is defending you from.

The capstones on-save effect will always be 10d10 damage. No matter how large the enemies health values are, how high your weapon damage values you are, or how many attacks you have per round. I feel this is unfair to the ability and the class.

That's just me of course. I can totally understand where you're coming from. The precedents are defiantly with your implementation.

EDIT: For all the text I've dedicated to this, It's a minor quibble, a nit-pick. The ability is still solid (given that it's a save-or-die). I just have a tendency to over analyze things.

[ErrantX]

5 more days chaps, until the contest is closed and voting begins. Get em done and get em posted!

-X

[Stycotl]

so hold on, we can or cannot post classes that we've created previous to this contest? i thought we couldn't, but Krimm's lovecraftian masterpiece is up, so i could be wrong. if we can, i have one that i want to enter that i created and posted on the forum last year (never entered in a contest).

[ErrantX]

so hold on, we can or cannot post classes that we've created previous to this contest? i thought we couldn't, but Krimm's lovecraftian masterpiece is up, so i could be wrong. if we can, i have one that i want to enter that i created and posted on the forum last year (never entered in a contest).

As I have not stated one way or the other to that effect, I'm totally okay with you posting a current class you have if you do not have the time or inspiration for a new one.

This probably will change in future contests, but part of it also comes down to me having to come up with something new and interesting enough that inspires new work and doesn't leave much room for previously made works.

-X

[Stycotl]

As I have not stated one way or the other to that effect, I'm totally okay with you posting a current class you have if you do not have the time or inspiration for a new one.

This probably will change in future contests, but part of it also comes down to me having to come up with something new and interesting enough that inspires new work and doesn't leave much room for previously made works.

-X

cool. i don't like to rely on premade works, and in fact, this will be the first and hopefully only time i do. but, i'm a bit strapped for time this month, and i like this prc enough that i will post it for the contest.

thanks. aaron out.

[PumpkinJack]

I just posted a new prestige class for clerics and druids called the Hag Witch. Basically, I'm trying to create a witch-flavored prestige class for the two most witch-flavored core classes (in my opinion) based on hags in DnD and in folklore with some witch folklore thrown in too. Maybe the witch thing has been done to death but I haven't seen a hag-centered prestige class before and it seems like a natural connection for evil witches. Take a look and tell me what you think.

Also, does anyone know if the sample encounter is required for the contest? That's the one part I haven't done yet.

[ErrantX]

Yes, sample encounter is required. That way DM's can find an easy way to introduce NPCs with this class or use it for an encounter.

-X

[ErrantX]

Having gone through all of our current entries (which I'm happy to see increasing rapidly) I've noticed a trend of several of dman's original entry requirements not being done.

Lord Gareth- Needs a sample encounter.
Draco Dei- Needs a class :P
Magesparrowhawk- Details for your sample encounter.
Crazedloon- You need to complete the Playing your class, your class in the world, NPC reactions, your class in the game, and a sample encounter.
MrMoron- In the World needs to be completed.
Boomwolf- Sample encounter
Krimm Blackleaf- Pretty much all the additional stuff
PumpkinJack- Sample encounter.

Which leads me to wonder if this is too much of a request/requirement for the contest? I know that Dman based this off of how WotC placed prestige classes in later Complete books and such, and it is a lot of extra work, but at the same time, it adds a lot of extra flavor and a sense of professionalism and completeness. There are several classes in the Complete books and Tome of Battle that I wasn't interested in really until I read this additional fluff, and that's what made it really click to me.

So tell me what do people think? Should these extra bits be required, appreciated, or just not necessary? Obviously, if they're just appreciated it could affect how your class gets voted on as it gives more details to the class to interest players. But please, tell me your thoughts on the matter. If people aren't into it, I'll leave it in there but won't make it necessary to the contest. As it stands, by Dman's rules, the above posters would be disqualified and that's more than half of my entrants.

-X

[Stycotl]

honestly, i don't think that anyone cares what dman wanted, especially now that you are running it.

i'd definitely require some fluff, but maybe not the entire wiki entry's worth of stuff. if i remember right, vorpal runs the monster contest similarly, with some of the fluff required (description, opening fluff text, etc), but has some of the other stuff as frosting. that seems reasonable to me.

either way, it isn't a big deal to require it all either, especially if we are trying to make them presentable.

EDIT: ok, i have every piece of fluff text in there, except that for the sample encounters, i gave two examples instead of a sample npc. this is done in the monstrous manual, and probably elsewhere and seems to fit well in my opinion. plus, i don't have to stat out an npc. if you would rather i actually stat out an npc, i'm just gonna link one of my pbp characters here (who happens to have this class...).

hmm, i had another point, though now i forget what it was. g'night then!

[dyslexicfaser]

You're right, the sample encounters and such add a sense of completeness and professionalism, but it's also a lot of work and internet posters are, by and large, lazy bastards.

By the by, anyone willing to offer a critique on mine? The capstone, in particular, feels ... not good.

[Lord_Gareth]

So tell me what do people think? Should these extra bits be required, appreciated, or just not necessary? Obviously, if they're just appreciated it could affect how your class gets voted on as it gives more details to the class to interest players. But please, tell me your thoughts on the matter. If people aren't into it, I'll leave it in there but won't make it necessary to the contest. As it stands, by Dman's rules, the above posters would be disqualified and that's more than half of my entrants.

-X

The fluff, yes, but the sample encounter is annoying as all hell. Why are they even necessary to begin with? It's not our job to tell DMs how to use our PrC to hurt their players' pride.

[PumpkinJack]

Alright, I've added a sample encounter to my Hag Witch class so hopefully I won't get excluded from the contest. I hope I got all the stats right. The encounter is based off the old "Bates Motel" idea with a friendly innkeeper who turns into a night hag when attacking guests that stay at his inn. Enjoy!

[Stycotl]

The fluff, yes, but the sample encounter is annoying as all hell. Why are they even necessary to begin with? It's not our job to tell DMs how to use our PrC to hurt their players' pride.

huh. i answered this earlier, but the web ate my post i guess.

anyway, i said something about the virtues of the monstrous manual sample encounters, how they usually just give something like this:

Individual (EL 3): ideas about how the party could stumble upon a loner.

Whole Friggin; Pack (EL 1,000): ideas about how the party could suffer a TPK at the hands of an almighty army.

what does this do? offers a sample encounter that stimulates the minds of both novice and veteran dm's, and saves you about twenty hours (ok, that's how long it takes me...) worth of suicide-inspiring work.

[Bhu]

Work has pretty much screwed me. I'll never finish in time, so I'll save the idea for another contest it qualifies for. Darn shame too this contest was pretty inspirational.

[ErrantX]

Last day folks, get em in before midnight when I close the contest and open a voting thread.

For those of you who've already entered, if you don't complete the sample encounter, that's fine. I will still require the additional fluff. Yeah, I know, I'm a huge pain, but from the outset you had to complete all of it anyhow. The sample encounter is nice, but not required. I will still include it in future contests.

Happy homebrewing!
-X

[Mr.Moron]

Fluff Completed.

[MageSparrowhawk]

I'll see if I can have a sample writeup yet today, but because of my schedule, I doubt I'll be able to put together a full encounter.

*shrug*

[ErrantX]

Like I said, don't worry about the sample encounter. I'm only really concerned with the Class in the World, NPC Reactions, Class in the Game stuff. The sample encounter is nice, but not necessary.

It'll still be in my blank template, but if it doesn't get done, I won't cry myself to sleep over as it won't be a required part of the contest. I'm just leaving it in there for completeness. :smallsmile:

-X

[Frog Dragon]

Any comments about my creation?

[ErrantX]

Any comments about my creation?

You need to tell what kind of hit die it gets, as that wasn't placed in. Nitpick in that you misspelled lawful in the alignment section. Otherwise, it's kind of like a corrupted druid wildshaping. That's kinda cool. The psueodonatural template isn't hugely overpowering, but I'd recommend later in the progression that you may want to consider applying the half-farspawn template as part of your capstone. But otherwise, really cool. I can easily imagine the sort of awful being that would arise from this class. I would also propose to you that you should consider how characters with Wild Shape are influenced by this class. Druids especially may get some fun stuff from this class. I'm thinking the Eberron setting and a Gatekeeper druid that gets compromised by the seal he guards. Fun fun stuff.

Good work, Frog Dragon :smallsmile:

-X

[Frog Dragon]

Agh. I forgot to copy the HD from my .Odt (I completed this in .Odt format and then copied it from there.) It's d8. I edited it now

I also don't have the book Half-Farspawn is in (I'm guessing LoM) though while making this class I wished i had it.

Yeah, I'm thinking any druid who takes this class falls immediately. Druids can fall and turning into the epitome of unnaturality nets a fall. No exceptions. It's close to the greatest insult to nature you can make.

Also *stabs typo*

problem solved

Yeah druids and these guys don't mesh. I really can't think of a Druid/Farshaper who still has hir druid spells&Wilshape

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I've finished up the Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5894059&postcount=9). Hope you folks like it.

[dyslexicfaser]

Pretty neat. Are all those form names in the capstone based on forms of Nyarlathotep's?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Pretty neat. Are all those form names in the capstone based on forms of Nyarlathotep's?

Those forms aren't the capstone, but sort of, yes. They're all pretty much names Demented One and I figured sound like names Nyarlathotep would have.

[ErrantX]

A little over twelve hours left folks, any last minute tweaks, last minute entrants, etc, get em in!

I'm itching to get the voting going tomorrow so we can get onto to the next contest. I'm still trying to decide between two different ideas so I'm glad I still have some time.

Good luck!
-X

[PumpkinJack]

Damn... no votes and no comments. My prestige class must suck.

[dyslexicfaser]

Right there with ya, fella.

[Stycotl]

Damn... no votes and no comments. My prestige class must suck.

you win some, and you lose some. i'll tell you what though, i'm rethinking my recent philosophy of not voting for my own creation...