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BRC
2008-06-02, 02:31 PM
So, I'm working on a scoundrelish/investigation based campaign. One of the things I'm going to do is remove or change spells that would make everything too easy. Yes, I know that in DnD, casters live by the philosiphy of "Anything you can do, I can do better, in one standard action, as well as doing anything else."

Detect Evil: Gone, I'll mess with alginments abit for the campaign, but detecting evil/good/whatever would take the fun out of it.
Knock: Outa there, I want a locked door to represent at least a skill check, maybe make the PC's pinch a key off somebody. I don't want it to be "Just cast a spell."
Disguise self: Disguises will be very useful to the PC's, that said, I don't want a 1st level spell giving them everything. I'm thinking of making it a few levels higher perhaps, with a corresponding price bump for Hat's of Disguise.
Invisibilty: Somthing needs to happen with this, I don't know what.

I'm sure there are more, and since I'm not the main DM I don't have accsess to all the books the group will have. I know for a fact that Spell Compendium is available, and I'll proably look through it at some point, but in the mean time could some people name some spells I should change and/or remove in order to give this campaign a place for non-casters.

Telonius
2008-06-02, 02:41 PM
Depending on the nature of the investigation, "Speak with Dead" could be problematic.

BRC
2008-06-02, 02:44 PM
Depending on the nature of the investigation, "Speak with Dead" could be problematic.
Yeah, maybe I'll give it a random chance to fail. Or, if they killed the person they are speaking with, make the spirit ticked off at them, and answer their questions in the least helpful ways imaginable, while technically saying the truth.
And giving it a chance to fail can make murder investigations alot harder, I just roll a dice, say "It dosn't work" and they can't just ask the dead guy who killed him.

Ionizer
2008-06-02, 02:46 PM
No real help from me other than to say that their are other ways around spells than just deleting them. Knock for example, only opens two forms of locking per casting. So have really important doors have 2 mundane locks, an arcane lock and be barred from the inside. This way, the party wizard will have to burn two spells to get through this one door, when the rogue could have easily picked the locks and let the wizard save his spells for the next door, which is triple locked, held and arcane locked. Also, knock doesn't get rid of any devious traps that might be on the door or triggered by the door being opened.

One of the worst ways to abuse your power as a DM is telling the players they can't use an ability that they earned "because I said so" or "because I don't have to think as much if I just make your ability worthless." Always try to work around abilities using the in game rules as written, instead just enacting Rule 0.

By the way, that campaign sounds intriguing. Good luck with it.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-06-02, 02:49 PM
Might want to make Knock have an Audible Pop-ing noise or some thing that will bring the attention of others. so it can be used in a pinch if need be but if people are trying to use it stealthily it won't work.

I assume your getting rid of Undetectable alignment, also prolly want to change spells that effect alignments such as chaos hammer and what not.
i would keep Magic Circle against Evil depending on how cuthulu you want it.

BRC
2008-06-02, 02:52 PM
No real help from me other than to say that their are other ways around spells than just deleting them. Knock for example, only opens two forms of locking per casting. So have really important doors have 2 mundane locks, an arcane lock and be barred from the inside. This way, the party wizard will have to burn two spells to get through this one door, when the rogue could have easily picked the locks and let the wizard save his spells for the next door, which is triple locked, held and arcane locked. Also, knock doesn't get rid of any devious traps that might be on the door or triggered by the door being opened.

One of the worst ways to abuse your power as a DM is telling the players they can't use an ability that they earned "because I said so" or "because I don't have to think as much if I just make your ability worthless." Always try to work around abilities using the in game rules as written, instead just enacting Rule 0.

By the way, that campaign sounds intriguing. Good luck with it.

Well yeah, I'm compiling this list now so that I can say at the begining of the campaign "All right, these spells are gone/changed". Maybe I'll keep knock, but just have it open one type of lock per door instead of two, and only keep the lock open for as long as the caster is concentrating (After which it re-locks

Ionizer
2008-06-02, 02:54 PM
See how easy that is? It makes it possible for the casters to have their versatility and not feel like they've been cheated, but also allows you to have more control over your campaign.

BRC
2008-06-02, 03:02 PM
Alright, so.
Detect Evil: Gone.
Knock: Changed, as above.
Disguise Self: I'll raise it to 4th level or so.
Invisibility: Somthing needs to happen with that.

Does anybody have any other spells that might ruin an investigation based campaign?

Eurus
2008-06-02, 03:11 PM
Divination spells could definitely be a problem. Speak with Dead maybe not so much; a corpse can't tell you who killed it if it was struck from behind. But a Commune or something can be a pain in the butt if you're trying for a serious investigation. Unless the bad guys have some kind of way to just resist divinations, that is.

What level is this? That plays a large role in what players can get and use.

BRC
2008-06-02, 03:16 PM
They will proably start at level 3 or 4, I don't know how high it will go, proably to level 15 or 16 or so.

AmberVael
2008-06-02, 03:19 PM
Personally, I would simply change Knock to be "The knock spell can make this level of skill check, but not higher." Or perhaps "The knock spell allows you to make an open lock check with this bonus when you cast the spell."
Thus it gains limitations, and can be used exactly for what it was meant to be used... but the rogue who maxes out open lock will still be needed if you come across a complex lock. It allows the wizard the coolness of clicking open a lock from far away, while not allowing them to go "SHAZAM! DOOR OPEN YO!"

Ionizer
2008-06-02, 03:27 PM
Comprehend Languages might make secret languages of evil organizations worthless, also look into Tongues.
Alter Self is a more powerful version of Disguise Self, may want to change it's level.
Zone of Truth can give you some headaches, Discern Lies as well.
True Seeing will reveal magical disguises (but not mundane ones).
Detect Thoughts will reveal anyone plotting anything evil.
Nondetection can help you work around some other spells.
Spells like Blink, Gaseous Form, Fly, Spider Climb, Dimension Door, Teleport and Ethereal Jaunt can let PCs get into places you thought they couldn't.
Even something as innocent as Water Breathing can let the PCs infiltrate a fortress or hide from assassins.


Most divination spells like Augury, Commune, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, and Scrying might derail the investigation before it begins, look into all of them. Also beware of enchantments like Charm Person, the players may get more information than you expected.

Those are some problematic spells for the PHB. Again, I urge you to have workaround for the villains so you can do something other than just delete the spells altogether. Good Luck.

BRC
2008-06-02, 03:30 PM
Hmm, that might work better. What I'm thinking is somthing like this

Time when I would allow Knock to be used:
Me (DM): As you turn the corner you lose sight of the cultists, but you can hear their footsteps chasing you, if you want to hide you better do it quickly.
PC (Wizard): I run to the nearest door and cast Knock.
Me: (Because that was just a random commoners house, it's lock is not likely to be very high quality) the door opens and you run in.

Time when I don't want Knock to be used.
Me: Alright, you have knocked out the guard at the door, from behind it you can hear the cultists begining their ritual. The look on the door is finely made and appears to have some softly glowi-
Wizard: I cast knock.
Me: *Crumples paper detailing encounter with guy who has the key that I spent an hour thinking up and another hour designing, throws paper at wizard, reaches for monster manual and opens it to Balor.*

kamikasei
2008-06-02, 03:30 PM
Divination spells could definitely be a problem. Speak with Dead maybe not so much; a corpse can't tell you who killed it if it was struck from behind. But a Commune or something can be a pain in the butt if you're trying for a serious investigation. Unless the bad guys have some kind of way to just resist divinations, that is.

What level is this? That plays a large role in what players can get and use.

Depending on the level, I'm inclined to say it would be more interesting to look carefully at what is available to the PCs (and beyond that to any, possibly more powerful or varied, NPCs with an interest), then have people attempt to work around that in the game world. Have people killed from behind or by masked assailants. Have corpses found with the jaws removed and disposed of nigh-untraceably. Consult the board for help anticipating all the oddball stuff your players might come up with.

Of course, you'll probably want to advise your players beforehand that "people in this world have a decent idea of what common magic can do, and anyone who wants to get away with a crime will try to cover their tracks from divinations and the like. Be aware that if you build a diviner, you're likely to run in to a lot of frustration."

BRC
2008-06-02, 03:50 PM
Speak with Dead is easy to get around,the city the campaign takes place in has several convienient areas in which to dispose of bodies. Plus the whole "Masked Assailant" aspect. All the conspiricists areas will be warded against scrying of course, but it may still be useful to help follow people.
Maybe I'll give Zone of Truth and Discern lies a longer casting time, so the PC's can use it in interrogations in their stronghold. Or maybe I'll just have some misleading half-truths ready for any captured prisoners to dispense when confronted with such a spell.

You know, I may turn this into a general "Help me with this campaign" Thread, yeah, I think I'll do that.

The Campaign Concept. The PC's are members of an Inquisition. The world is during what is known as "The age of peace", which came after "the age of conflict". In short, the great, big, nasty, obvious evils are all vanquished, however, the world is now unprepared for if they come back rather quickly.
The Inquisition obsentivly worships one god (or perhaps a pantheon of goods), however, there are several different Sects to this religion, each with different philosiphies. Ergo, a cleric gets their domain spells not based on which god they worship, since they only get one choice, but on which sect they belong to. PC's of an Evil alignment are merely very enthusastic.

As members of the Inquisition, the PC's have, to quote the transformers movie "Do whatever the hell you want and get away with it" Badges. However, news travels fast in the city (the entire campaign will take place in one city). I'll have a little rating callled "Suspicion", which I'll tell the players exists, but won't let them know what it is at that point. Suspicion represents how much the people they are after A: Know that the inquisition is on to them, and B: Know that the PC's are after them. If they let their suspicion rating get too high, the conspirators get more careful and, if they learn who they are, may even attack the PC's directly.
Because Anybody could be a member of this conspiracy, the PC's will need to be very careful about showing their badges or allowing their actions to become public.

Though Rogues will definetally be useful, I'm not going to make non sneaky types obsolete. For example, if the PC's want to stake out a suspect's house, I'm not going to make the wizard roll a disguise check to dress up as a begger and sit out there. If they are trying to follow somebody, I'm not going to make the burly fighter roll a disguise check to put on some street clothes and follow at a distance. There will be some combat however. XP and Loot will be awarded on a goal-completion basis rather than on a dead-body basis.