Best methods of Phylactery Protection

[Enlong]

OK, so I'd like to hear you relate your stories or ideas on powerful or ingenious methods of protecting a Lich's phylactery. It can be something that actually happened, or something that you came up with and haven't tested.

I'll start off with my favorite idea.

You will need:
1 Thought Bottle
The raw materials for making a number of Stone Golems.
The materials necessary for becoming a Lich.
An incredibly hard-to-break miniscule object (a ring of Adamantine?) to use as a phylactery.
Access to Stone to Flesh
Access to Antimagic Field
Access to Imprisonment
Access to Permenancy
the Sculpt Spell feat.

What you do:
1: Put your Experience into your Thought Bottle.
2: Craft the bodies for a number of Stone Golems, but don't make them Golems yet.
3: Become a Lich. Make your Phylactery something tiny, hard to see, and hard to break. Then cast Invisibility on it and Permanancy that, then put it deep into one of the Stone Golem bodies.
4: Finish the construction of the Stone Golems.
5: Take your golems to some secluded spot (I suggest a desert or plain with no landmarks, or a forest.)
6: Order your golems to fail their next few Will saves, and to defend themselves at all costs, except from you.
7: Single out the golem with your Phylactery in it.
8: Cast Flesh to Stone on it to negate its Spell Immunity, then cast Imprisonment on it.
9: Repeat the last step on all the other golems, making sure to Imprison them at the same spot.
10: Cast Antimagic Field, using Sculpt Spell to make its area something other then an emanation, so that it just covers the spot where the Golems were Imprisoned.
11: Make the Antimagic Field permanent. (note: if your DM disallows this, ask him what method NPCs use to make anti-magic cells, and use that.)
11A: (optional) If you did this in a forest, plant a tree on the spot where the Golems went under, and then get a Druid to guard the forest.
12: Open your Thought Bottle and reclaim all your lost Experience.

Ta-dah!

[FlyMolo]

The thought bottle is largely just a finishing touch.

If you already have a phylactery, get an Immovable Rod. Two works better. Attach your phylactery to the rod/rods, then cast Fly and head straight up. 300 feet up or so, cast Invisibility on the rods and yourself. Head up higher. As high as your DM will let you go. And then head out over the ocean. Once you're there, permanency the invisibility on the rods(and push the buttons.), then recast Fly and invisibility on yourself and head back for land. The self invisibility is just so nobody can see you fly out there.

If you have access to epic magic, cast animate object on the phylactery, permanency Resist energy cold/fire on it, then cast Nailed to The Sky on it. Nobody will ever find it. Especially if you permanency Invisibility or Etherealness on it first. Don't permanency the animate object, because objects are harder to find than creatures.

Also, if you're a lich, repeat the trick with the golems, but on the dark side of the moon. You have Fly. You have Resist Energy. You have time on your hands. Go to it. Remember to be invisible on both legs of the journey.

Or underground. Go Ethereal or something, float around underground till you find a good place, and ditch your phylactery. Of course, you have to respawn there. Ick. That's a major consideration for these, really. The Nailed To The Sky one still works.

[holywhippet]

11: Make the Antimagic Field permanent. (note: if your DM disallows this, ask him what method NPCs use to make anti-magic cells, and use that.)


Not possible. Permanency is a spell, so it will fail when cast on the area with the anti-magic field. Antimagic field isn't one of the spells it works on either.

Anti-magic cells are made by enchanting an item with a constant effect anti-magic field. As such, it's tied to a particular item rather than a location.

[Enlong]

Or underground. Go Ethereal or something, float around underground till you find a good place, and ditch your phylactery. Of course, you have to respawn there. Ick. That's a major consideration for these, really. The Nailed To The Sky one still works.

Simply be an Archmage and take a Teleport SLA. Soon as you can, zap outta there.

[FlyMolo]

Simply be an Archmage and take a Teleport SLA. Soon as you can, zap outta there.

Mmm, but a mean DM will say that you can't recover spells if you're crushed under a thousand tons of earth. That probably doesn't count as restful sleep. An item of teleport other that you leave in orbit would work. Duct-taped to your phylactery, of course.

[Enlong]

Not possible. Permanency is a spell, so it will fail when cast on the area with the anti-magic field. Antimagic field isn't one of the spells it works on either.

Anti-magic cells are made by enchanting an item with a constant effect anti-magic field. As such, it's tied to a particular item rather than a location.

Right. do that then. Go ethereal and stick the Atimagic object somewhere underground so that the field will cover the Imprisonment spot. Then get out of the area and turn it on.

[Enlong]

Mmm, but a mean DM will say that you can't recover spells if you're crushed under a thousand tons of earth. That probably doesn't count as restful sleep. An item of teleport other that you leave in orbit would work. Duct-taped to your phylactery, of course.

Ah, but you don't need to "recover spells" to use it. Simply keep one use of it in reserve, just in case. You activate SLAs mentally, without any other components.

[JaxGaret]

IF you trust your god, give it to them. That's about the best protection possible.

If you don't trust your god, there is no best method. A Wizard will find a way to destroy it.

[Collin152]

Give it to a skeleton.
Order the skeleton into a portable hole.
Follow it in.
Cast Imprisonment on it.
Chuck a Bag of Holding into the Hole.
Ta-da!

[Enlong]

Give it to a skeleton.
Order the skeleton into a portable hole.
Follow it in.
Cast Imprisonment on it.
Chuck a Bag of Holding into the Hole.
Ta-da!

What? Is there... is there any earth inside the Hole?

How can you be imprisoned inside the astral....

GAH!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Take your Phylactery and a Spellbook with Teleport. Make an item of Antimagic Field, Widened(or 2 items of AMF) and an Item of Dimension Lock, both continuous(with the items deactivating for 6 seconds if touched by you, then reactivating), and both left far away for now. Cast Wall of Force+Permanancy, making the wall into a circle whose area can fit entirely within the AMF. Cast Wish, asking for Reverse Gravity, only aimed sideways(fairly reasonable). Cast Wall of Force+Permanancy, this time adding a roof and floor to your circle(thereby avoiding the "vertical" issue). Go inside your room. Cast Prismatic Sphere+Permanancy, making sure it is entirely within the walls and floor. Teleport out, grab the items, touch all of them, teleport back with items+Phylactery+spellbook. Leave the Phylactery and spellbook inside the sphere with the item of Dimension Lock, and leave the AMF outside, but inside the Walls of Force(which are within the radius of the AMF). Congadulations, the Phylactery now requires either Disjunction(maybe) or a Sphere of Annihilation to destroy.

And then put it on the Positive Energy Plane guarded by Vampires. :smallwink:

[FlyMolo]

Any one of a number of methods for making people into vestiges work here. The trick with two planes and 4 castings of Gate is dubious.

My favorite, and cheapest, is Maze+Transdimensional Maze. When the first maze expires, there's nowhere for the second maze to deposit them. Bam, vestige. That does leave the question of where you come back after you're destroyed. Clawing your way back into reality every time? A beast.

And don't bother with a skeleton, try instead an animated object. It works better, and later expires, leaving the object wherever.

Stone golems and the moon for me, I suspect. With a double-blind immovable rod trick, and another one underground somewhere.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Make it a grain of sand.
Animate it, giving it a land speed and somehow a burrow speed.
Disguise its magic aura.
Put it on a beach, and order it to run away from living creatures.

Animating it may not be possible, though.

[monty]

And then put it on the Positive Energy Plane guarded by Vampires. :smallwink:

That's always a good way to protect something, if you can manage it. The longer they take to find it, the harder it is to get.

[FlyMolo]

Make it a grain of sand.
Animate it, giving it a land speed and somehow a burrow speed.
Disguise its magic aura.
Put it on a beach, and order it to run away from living creatures.

Animating it may not be possible, though.

If this gets out(which is entirely possible) it would be fairly easy to get. Get zombies to pick up the whole damn beach, and pour it through a narrow trough, with a hampster on one side and a small cup on the other. Eventually, one grain of sand will jump into the cup. Order a zombie to cap the cup, and go destroy it.

Sadly, you can't make your phlactery a grain of sand.

Animate object, then Flesh to Stone, and Stone to Mud, then scatter the mud. Hasn't technically been destroyed, but impossible to destroy without nuking the earth.

[Enlong]

IF you trust your god, give it to them. That's about the best protection possible.

If you don't trust your god, there is no best method. A Wizard will find a way to destroy it.

I dunno. I think the combination of my method with Fly's idea of placing it on the moon makes it as close to Wizard-proof as makes no odds, outside of Epic Magic (in which case the lich could probably just place some Epic curse on knowledge of the phylactery or something).

I also have an addendum to my method.
After sticking the Golems underground, go Ethereal and put Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum around them, Permanancied.
Then put another Permanencied Private Sanctum around the spot of Imprisonment, But just so, so that the cloudiness is not visible. For extra effect, cast an earth-moving spell to collapse a small mountain of rubble on top of the spot. Then place the AMF object so that the field surrounds the spot of Imprisonment but so that the outer edge is within the Private Sanctum.
Congratulations. Your Phylactery is now guarded by an army of temporally-locked golems, invisible, freaking small, and hard to break. Furthermore, it is far below the surface of the moon, and cannot by scryed upon by any means, and cannot be released from its Imprisonment unless someone goes to the moon, discovers and removes the antimagic-object, and casts Freedom on the spot where the golems were imprisoned. All with no prior indication of where it is, due to Private Sanctum jamming all their divinations. Not even a Wish spell is powerful enough to tell them where it is.

As a finishing flourish, make an item that replicates the status spell, link it to the Phylactery-keeper, and lock it under the moon with him, so that you and only you know the status of that golem.

[Collin152]

What? Is there... is there any earth inside the Hole?

How can you be imprisoned inside the astral....

GAH!

Haha!
The only valid entry point no longer exists!
The only way in... is you, dying!

[FlyMolo]

I dunno. I think the combination of my method with Fly's idea of placing it on the moon makes it as close to Wizard-proof as makes no odds, outside of Epic Magic (in which case the lich could probably just place some Epic curse on knowledge of the phylactery or something).

I also have an addendum to my method.
After sticking the Golems underground, go Ethereal and put Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum around them, Permanancied.
Then put another Permanencied Private Sanctum around the spot of Imprisonment, But just so, so that the cloudiness is not visible. For extra effect, cast an earth-moving spell to collapse a small mountain of rubble on top of the spot. Then place the AMF object so that the field surrounds the spot of Imprisonment but so that the outer edge is within the Private Sanctum.
Congratulations. Your Phylactery is now guarded by an army of temporally-locked golems, invisible, freaking small, and hard to break. Furthermore, it is far below the surface of the moon, and cannot by scryed upon by any means, and cannot be released from its Imprisonment unless someone goes to the moon, discovers and removes the antimagic-object, and casts Freedom on the spot where the golems were imprisoned. All with no prior indication of where it is, due to Private Sanctum jamming all their divinations. Not even a Wish spell is powerful enough to tell them where it is.

As a finishing flourish, make an item that replicates the status spell, link it to the Phylactery-keeper, and lock it under the moon with him, so that you and only you know the status of that golem.
This is clever, but has a single failing. It's spottable if you fly around the moon. A huge mound of rubble will make an impression, even though the dark side of the moon is sodding huge. And anyone capable of taking out the defenses around it is definitely doing laps around the moon, if only to prove they can.

Excavate a hole, cast everything from inside it, then backfill it carefully. Best of all, tunnel down a ways, so that you're a mile or so down, then throw down your protections.

I'm trying to think of way to work quintessence into this, but I can't think of one. Oh, I've got a clever one. Phase door, then put the antimagic doohickey in the phase door. Permanency. What now. Trouble is, permanency and phase door won't work in an antimagic field.

I think this is pretty much perfect. The Private Sanctum won't work inside an antimagic field, but most divinations should be blocked by the mile or so of rock, plus an antimagic field( divinations get blocked by an antimagic field, Or it would appear that way.). Nondetection on all those golems would be good. Especially cleverly, get a bunch of incorporeal undead, put them around your golems and around your Imprisonment spot, then get the antimagic field in place. When the antimagic field is moved, the incorporeal undead wink into existence and kill whoever's doing the moving.

Allips, shadows, Greater Shadows, spectres and wraiths are your options in Core. A Shadow of the Void and a Shape of Fire would be good too, if you have epic.

[monty]

If you have epic magic, summon 10^x Solars and animate the moon to defend it for you.

[FlyMolo]

If you have epic magic, summon 10^x Solars and animate the moon to defend it for you.

Epic Magic-> epic enemies. Epic enemies-> Someone clever with a bunch of bricks and items of reverse gravity. Ducttape items to bricks. Let go. Watch as bricks accelerate upwards towards the moon. Cackle with glee as the bricks punch 800 mile deep holes through the moon. Yes really. I did the math around here somewhere.

So animating the moon would really only clue people in to its position.

[Collin152]

Make an Epic Spell as your phylactery. As long as the spell exists, so do you.
It costs money and XP, and you make it, so it fits the bill exactly.

[monty]

Epic Magic-> epic enemies. Epic enemies-> Someone clever with a bunch of bricks and items of reverse gravity. Ducttape items to bricks. Let go. Watch as bricks accelerate upwards towards the moon. Cackle with glee as the bricks punch 800 mile deep holes through the moon. Yes really. I did the math around here somewhere.

So animating the moon would really only clue people in to its position.

I really want to see this math now, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Did it account for the gravitational field of the sun and so on?

Also, you could probably give the moon class levels and feats to help it protect itself.

[Enlong]

This is clever, but has a single failing. It's spottable if you fly around the moon. A huge mound of rubble will make an impression, even though the dark side of the moon is sodding huge. And anyone capable of taking out the defenses around it is definitely doing laps around the moon, if only to prove they can.

Excavate a hole, cast everything from inside it, then backfill it carefully. Best of all, tunnel down a ways, so that you're a mile or so down, then throw down your protections.

I'm trying to think of way to work quintessence into this, but I can't think of one. Oh, I've got a clever one. Phase door, then put the antimagic doohickey in the phase door. Permanency. What now. Trouble is, permanency and phase door won't work in an antimagic field.

I think this is pretty much perfect. The Private Sanctum won't work inside an antimagic field, but most divinations should be blocked by the mile or so of rock, plus an antimagic field( divinations get blocked by an antimagic field, Or it would appear that way.). Nondetection on all those golems would be good. Especially cleverly, get a bunch of incorporeal undead, put them around your golems and around your Imprisonment spot, then get the antimagic field in place. When the antimagic field is moved, the incorporeal undead wink into existence and kill whoever's doing the moving.

Allips, shadows, Greater Shadows, spectres and wraiths are your options in Core. A Shadow of the Void and a Shape of Fire would be good too, if you have epic.
Freaking awesome.
I would say that the mound is just a small mound to cover the cloudiness of the Sanctum, but the tunneling thing is so much better. Especially since the golems are even DEEPER now. As for the Sanctum not working in an AMF, you put the sanctum around the AMF. The divinations can't penetrate the Sanctum to get to the AMF.
Quintessence isn't needed, 'cause the golems are Time-locked by the Imprisonment. Oh, wait. I got it. When you're filling in the hole, leave a big cavity around the spot of Imprisonment, and fill it with Quintessence, just to screw with people more. Speaking of cavities in stone, you hollow out another cavity some distance from the golems and fill that with yet another sanctum. It's still under the stone so it's not visible, and that becomes the place where you teleport to before layering spells upon you to be undetected as you zap back to planetside.

additional thing to the incorporeals. Make sure they're inside the Sanctum, and have one non-fighter whose purpose is to move out of the Sanctum and inform you via a permanent Telepathic Bond when stuff goes down.

[FlyMolo]

Make an Epic Spell as your phylactery. As long as the spell exists, so do you.
It costs money and XP, and you make it, so it fits the bill exactly.

Not quite. A contingent spell might work. You need Craft Wonderous Item, and it says that other forms of phylactery are permitted, such as rings, etc, or other items. That or other items gets you. A contingent spell is treated pretty much like an item in all other ways. A contingent spell on an otherwise unassuming pebble, wrapped in quintessence and ignored, while the other protections outlined above are laboriously set up on the moon.

[JaxGaret]

I dunno. I think the combination of my method with Fly's idea of placing it on the moon makes it as close to Wizard-proof as makes no odds, outside of Epic Magic (in which case the lich could probably just place some Epic curse on knowledge of the phylactery or something).

How to get to a specific location on the Moon:

Step 1. Plane Shift.

Step 2. Plane Shift back to the Material Plane. Destination: anywhere on the Moon.

Step 3: Teleport there.

The rest is elementary for a Batman Wizard.

[Collin152]

Not quite. A contingent spell might work. You need Craft Wonderous Item, and it says that other forms of phylactery are permitted, such as rings, etc, or other items. That or other items gets you. A contingent spell is treated pretty much like an item in all other ways. A contingent spell on an otherwise unassuming pebble, wrapped in quintessence and ignored, while the other protections outlined above are laboriously set up on the moon.

But then you can be destroyed by the contingency beign fulfilled.
And no matter how impossible the circumstances...
Hey, it's like the Death Star!

[Enlong]

Not quite. A contingent spell might work. You need Craft Wonderous Item, and it says that other forms of phylactery are permitted, such as rings, etc, or other items. That or other items gets you. A contingent spell is treated pretty much like an item in all other ways. A contingent spell on an otherwise unassuming pebble, wrapped in quintessence and ignored, while the other protections outlined above are laboriously set up on the moon.
Actually, the feat is Craft Contingent Spell, I think.

And of course both of these are blinds for the real phylactery that is hidden in a portable hole-Bag of Holding glitch as described Collin152

[FlyMolo]

How to get to a specific location on the Moon:
Step 1. Plane Shift.
Step 2. Plane Shift back to the Material Plane. Destination: anywhere on the Moon.
Step 3: Teleport there.
The rest is elementary for a Batman Wizard.

Oh, the on-the-moon bit is just to discourage visitors. Actually getting there is easy. Overland flight, bottle of air, necklace of adaptation, whatever. The trick is nobody will be digging around on the dark side of the moon.

Edit: Yes, you need craft contingent spell for that. Just set the contingencies to be impossible. Actually impossible, not just naked and dressed(wearing a net) or something like that.

[Collin152]

Oh, the on-the-moon bit is just to discourage visitors. Actually getting there is easy. Overland flight, bottle of air, necklace of adaptation, whatever. The trick is nobody will be digging around on the dark side of the moon.

Three words:
Space Drow Leprechauns.

[Enlong]

How to get to a specific location on the Moon:

Step 1. Plane Shift.

Step 2. Plane Shift back to the Material Plane. Destination: anywhere on the Moon.

Step 3: Teleport there.

The rest is elementary for a Batman Wizard.
Coupla questions:
1: How is he breathing?
2: How does he know of the phylactery (the spot of Imprisonment, and the golem with the invisible ring are both wrapped in Private Sanctums, which nix any divination attempts. And if I were a lich this cautious, I'd not speak of it, not to mention periodic Mind Blanks.)
3: How does he know where it is? (again, Private Sanctum and Nondetections, as well as being miles under the barren surface with no real landmarks to go by)

[FlyMolo]

This is actually pretty perfect. If you can keep it secret long enough to get it set up, it's biggest defense is that the interior of the moon is damn big and your pair of locations don't have to be bigger than a few feet wide.

Divinations are double-nixed, once by AMF, and again by a suppressed Mages' private sanctum.

The trick is not to defend against Cr-appropriate enemies, but against enemies of much much higher CR. It has to defeat epic magic.

[JaxGaret]

Coupla questions:
1: How is he breathing?

Do you really think such a trivial thing as a little lack of atmosphere will stop the Batman?


2: How does he know of the phylactery (the spot of Imprisonment, and the golem with the invisible ring are both wrapped in Private Sanctums, which nix any divination attempts. And if I were a lich this cautious, I'd not speak of it, not to mention periodic Mind Blanks.)
3: How does he know where it is? (again, Private Sanctum and Nondetections, as well as being miles under the barren surface with no real landmarks to go by)

If they're going after the Phylactery, odds are they're powerful enough to subdue the Lich outright and make the them tell them where it is. Otherwise, what the heck are they doing going after the Phylactery in the first place?

It has to be impossible to get to, or guarded by a more powerful being, for a Batman Wizard not to be able to destroy it.

[Deme]

Do you really think such a trivial thing as a little lack of atmosphere will stop the Batman?

Wasn't there a Shortpacked! strip to that effect? One that I am too lazy to track down and link to?

[JaxGaret]

Wasn't there a Shortpacked! strip to that effect? One that I am too lazy to track down and link to?

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1374/batmaninspacexg7.gif

:smallsmile:

I actually had it saved on my computer.

[Chronos]

Two words for anyone planning on security by obscurity:

Legend Lore.

A phylactery definitely qualifies as "legendary", since it can't even be made by anyone under 11th level, and usually a lot more. And most anti-divination measures won't do anything about it, since it's Target: You. Anyone going after your phylactery would surely have some solid information on it (at least things like your name), which would be enough to get a riddle-type answer that would lead to "The moon", or whatever, and going to the moon would then give you enough material to work with to get a detailed description of the hiding spot.

Contact Other Plane, Commune, and Metafaculty can also potentially give you information on a phylactery, regardless of how it's warded.

Oh, and FlyMolo, you can't cast Flesh to Stone on an animated object. An animated object is a construct, and therefore has no Constitution score, and is therefore immune to anything that offers a Fort save and doesn't affect objects. You could, however, just start with a stone object to begin with.

[Alleine]

1)Get a scroll of genesis, or cast it yourself.
It doesn't really matter what you make the plane like, but airless and icy would be good. Since a lich cares not at all about such things.

2)Make sure you have the spell Planeshift in your spells known.

3)Purchase a weirdstone.

4)Go to your new demiplane and set down the phylactery.

5)Activate the weirdstone.

6)Planeshift away.

Now no one can get in short of divine intervention, unless there's away around the weirdstone's ability to block all planar travel into a place that I don't know of.
I never really got this tested though, since my character never made it to lichdom. *sigh*

[Baron Malkar]

There is an epic spell in one of the FR books that allows you to split your phylacrity each time you cast it. So you spend as long as is apropriate in a Perpetual Persistant Timestop and use all of these ideas as well as sneaking them into hundreds of random treasure hoards and posobly even have it replace Elminsters pants button. It would take ceturys to find them all and you instantly know when one has been destroyed so you make more.

[Bag_of_Holding]

If your DM enforces the 'reformation-right-next-to-the-phylactery' house rule, quite a few of the aforementioned methods would be hilarious to watch when the lich regenerates.

Me, personally, would definitely use the house rule, just to make things funnier. Mmm... imagine a PC's ancestral weapon just turning out to be the phylactery of his/her great-great-great-great-great-grandfather or something. "Hi son, don't mind me I just happen to be *slain* by this hero..."

[Eldritch_Ent]

One way to get around the whole "Can't recover spells while buried under solid rock" thing is to jsut use Move Earth, Shape Stone, or even a Disintegrate to clear yourself out a 5x5x10 "closet" for you to stand or lay down in, complete with teleport written on the walls.


My personal favorite Phylactery Protection Scheme is having a Network of Liches, or at least pairs of Liches, who agree to watch over each other's Phylacteries. (Hey, just because they're evil doesn't mean they can't cooperate.) - Just have one of the Liches plane shift to the Negative energy plane with the other's Phylactery in tow if one kicks the bucket, and have him hide out until the other Lich reforms. (Which could arguably be sped up by the negative energy.)

[Crazy Scot]

One of the more ingenious ways I have heard of would be to use a Bag of Holding (or other extradimensional space like the belt with 64 minor bags of holding in it). Walk into an AMF making them normal bags/objects. Insert phylactery into object. Exit the AMF. Now the only way to get it is to reach into the object while in a AMF.

[llamamushroom]

I like the idea of using Genesis, but I also like the Grain of Sand method, so...

Make the smallest and most natural-looking phylactery you can (does shaping a rock oddly count?).
Cast a spell to obscure the aura.
Use Genesis, and make your plane literally filled with objects that look exactly like, or close enough to, your phylactery
Throw in the phylactery at some point
Be happy that the pressure wouldn't kill you. I'm sure of this because you don't get crushed by the pressure of being thousands of kilometers undergrounds.
Find a way of putting in sharks with lazers on their heads.

[bosssmiley]

Three words:
Space Drow Leprechauns.

So obvious...yet so cunning. :smalleek:

I'm old school. If you're not going to make your phylactery part of a useful, plot-critical magic item (like Sauron did), then either

1) build a Gygaxian killer dungeon round it and license the scrying rights like Acack...ackac...acackerak...aakak...ak (sp? :smallwink:) did, or
2) just fit it out with a nondetection effect and send a Xorn buddy to bury it a mile down in solid rock.

[Enlong]

If they're going after the Phylactery, odds are they're powerful enough to subdue the Lich outright and make the them tell them where it is. Otherwise, what the heck are they doing going after the Phylactery in the first place?

It has to be impossible to get to, or guarded by a more powerful being, for a Batman Wizard not to be able to destroy it.

Dude... Subduing the Lich and making him tell them? How? First of all, they'd have to Dimension Lock him to subdue him, since he's got a Teleport SLA. Second, how could they force him to tell? The Lich would rather die and regenerate then reveal the location of his phylactery, and is using periodic Mind Blanks on himself (actually, why not a Mind Blank SLA from Archmage, just to always have it?) so the Wizard can't Charm or Dominate him into revealing the location. Finally, if he does get captured, he could probably just kill himself to evade capture. He regenerates on the moon and the wizard is no closer to finding his Phylactery.


As for that thing about Impossible to get to, see Collin's first idea: Imprison the thing in a Portable Hole, then chuck a Bag of Holding inside. Ta-da. The point of Imprisonment no longer exists.

[FlyMolo]

Reforming there is a pain, wherever you are.

And as far as FtS not working on constructs: PaO. What now.:smalltongue:

[Enlong]

Reforming there is a pain, wherever you are.

And as far as FtS not working on constructs: PaO. What now.:smalltongue:

And in any case, the description of the Stone Golem specifically states that Stone to Flesh removes its spell immunity for a round.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hum... use a grain of sand for your phylactery..

now, find a way to permanently give a billion grain of sand the same magical aura

cast a permanent most powerful nondetection spell you can find on your phylactery

use gust of wind to disseminate the billion necromantic-glowing grain of sand in the desert

or, if you can, simply enchant the whole desert with a necromantic-aura. No one will ever find it. PCs will get bored trying to destroy every single grain of sand.

[Tokiko Mima]

Pardon if this has been suggested before, but perhaps a good defense would be to have more than just one Phylactery? If there are several -- some hidden, some close at hand, it would allow the lich time to prepare a counterattack before anyone could find and destroy all the phylacteries. Since liches are usually epic Batman wizards it should be difficult to kill them before they find and kill you; provided that they have advance warning.

[chiasaur11]

Hum... use a grain of sand for your phylactery..

now, find a way to permanently give a billion grain of sand the same magical aura

cast a permanent most powerful nondetection spell you can find on your phylactery

use gust of wind to disseminate the billion necromantic-glowing grain of sand in the desert

or, if you can, simply enchant the whole desert with a necromantic-aura. No one will ever find it. PCs will get bored trying to destroy every single grain of sand.

Or they nuke the whole place, just to be sure.

Always plan on epics.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Use one magic dampener, so magic can't find it.
Then give it to a pirate.
Not a ninja, ninjas would find out.

[Chronos]

Now no one can get in short of divine intervention, unless there's away around the weirdstone's ability to block all planar travel into a place that I don't know of.Putting the phylactery someplace that's literally impossible for anything to get to is a very, very bad idea. If nothing at all can reach it, then neither can your soul. So you need to leave a loophole big enough for your soul to get to it, but hopefully small enough that nothing else can.

[Telonius]

Find a respectable royal family that only has one child. Kidnap the child as an infant, implant the phylactery in his heart, and use your foul necromantic magic to seal the wound. Stage a defeat, whereby the child is rescued. You're safe as long as the kid lives, and when he dies nobody will think of robbing the royal tomb. If you happen to be defeated, you get the added bonus of bursting out of the kid's chest like an Alien.

[monty]

...and hope that he isn't cremated.

[FlyMolo]

Hum... use a grain of sand for your phylactery..

now, find a way to permanently give a billion grain of sand the same magical aura

cast a permanent most powerful nondetection spell you can find on your phylactery

use gust of wind to disseminate the billion necromantic-glowing grain of sand in the desert

or, if you can, simply enchant the whole desert with a necromantic-aura. No one will ever find it. PCs will get bored trying to destroy every single grain of sand.

It has to have a certain value, and Locate City Bomb. The moon is big enough that even several Locate City Bombs probably wouldn't catch you phylactery. Hopefully.

[Chronicled]

Good stuff here. I'd link to the Psionland idea for securing one's Astral Seed, but Gleemax is refusing to show it. Since you're coming back as an undead, using Genesis to make a custom plane for phylactory storage would work great. If the Wierdstone would prevent your soul from reaching your phylactory, you could still make a plane that is extremely inhospitable. Negative energy, airless... and using the time relativity trick so that even if Batman popped in for phylactory removal, as soon as he Plane Shifted away, he'd die from old age (admittedly, it'd be quite inconvenient to die as it'd be a long time before you got back to the Material Plane).


and when he dies nobody will think of robbing the royal tomb.

:smallconfused: :smallamused:

I find this to be unbelievably funny.

[FlyMolo]

Negative energy, airless... and using the time relativity trick so that even if Batman popped in for phylactory removal, as soon as he Plane Shifted away, he'd die from old age (admittedly, it'd be quite inconvenient to die as it'd be a long time before you got back to the Material Plane).

You can even put the aforementioned protections on a moon going around your custom genesis plane. You have nigh infinite time to set this up, anyway.

And this long return thing can be a serious advantage. Wear a fake phylactery around your neck. Nystul's magic Aura, or something. The PCs will kill you and then it, but then hey presto! You come back in a hundred years. You're a legend.

[Enlong]

It has to have a certain value, and Locate City Bomb. The moon is big enough that even several Locate City Bombs probably wouldn't catch you phylactery. Hopefully.

Ah. But you're forgetting the most fun part of entombing the ring-bearer golem with Imprisonment. Imprisonment locks the subject in temporal stasis as the Temporal Stasis spell. And the Temporal Stasis spell states this:

The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it.
Emphasis mine. This means that the Golems and the phylactery remain untouched, even if someone uses epic magic to nuke the moon.

[FlyMolo]

Emphasis mine. This means that the Golems and the phylactery remain untouched, even if someone uses epic magic to nuke the moon.

Yeah, but there'd be a double handful of golems floating in space, with bits of destroyed moon flying away from it. And they'd be... indestructible.

I've got it. Imprisonment, then Locate City Bomb the moon into oblivion. Not only would you be ridiculously awesome, but your phylactery would be so damn safe.

That would ridiculously awesome. Seriously. You explode the moon, trapping the earth in the shards. Meteors rain down constantly, as your armies march across the earth.

[Jorkens]

Pardon if this has been suggested before, but perhaps a good defense would be to have more than just one Phylactery? If there are several -- some hidden, some close at hand, it would allow the lich time to prepare a counterattack before anyone could find and destroy all the phylacteries.
Just make sure none of them accidentally turn out to be
plot armoured boy wizards.

[FlyMolo]

That one's only a spoiler if you know the spoiler already. Unless someone like me mentions that fact. Meta-spoilers!?! head asplode.

[Enlong]

Yeah, but there'd be a double handful of golems floating in space, with bits of destroyed moon flying away from it. And they'd be... indestructible.

I've got it. Imprisonment, then Locate City Bomb the moon into oblivion. Not only would you be ridiculously awesome, but your phylactery would be so damn safe.

That would ridiculously awesome. Seriously. You explode the moon, trapping the earth in the shards. Meteors rain down constantly, as your armies march across the earth.

Naw, just to further solidify your awesomeness, make it an anti-osmium antimatter bomb. Trap the payload with a couple Walls of Force, then Teleport Object the payload into the Moon's core.

[Chronos]

If the Wierdstone would prevent your soul from reaching your phylactory, you could still make a plane that is extremely inhospitable. Negative energy, airless...Better yet: There's not actually anything in the rules preventing a plane from being both positive and negative dominant. And by a strict reading of the rules, undead aren't harmed at all by a positive dominant plane. Everyone else, meanwhile, is simultaneously increasing their hit point total, and decreasing their maximum, bringing them to Death by Awesome extra-quickly.

[Chronicled]

And this long return thing can be a serious advantage. Wear a fake phylactery around your neck. Nystul's magic Aura, or something. The PCs will kill you and then it, but then hey presto! You come back in a hundred years. You're a legend.

And then you've got to rerecruit minions, rebuild your undead armies, reconquer territory, reestablish fear amongst the populace, etc, etc. Sure you've got infinite time, but it certainly sets back the domination plans. The third or fourth time you have to do this, it's going to (in-character) get boring fast.

Not an insurmountable hurdle, but certainly annoying.


Better yet: There's not actually anything in the rules preventing a plane from being both positive and negative dominant. And by a strict reading of the rules, undead aren't harmed at all by a positive dominant plane. Everyone else, meanwhile, is simultaneously increasing their hit point total, and decreasing their maximum, bringing them to Death by Awesome extra-quickly.

Nice catch! :smallbiggrin:

[Laurellien]

Here we go

1) Animate a zombie
2) Cast rope trick
3) Enter the rope trick with the zombie
4) Feed the phylactery to the zombie
5) Cast imprisonment on the zombie
6) Leave the rope trick
7) Dismiss the rope trick
8) ?????
9) Profit!

[Rasilak]

Again: What good is a Phylactery that doesn't exist? The goal is to hide it, not to destroy it.

[Recaiden]

1.Use fragmented phylactery so thast you have several on each moon.
2.Use Nailed to the Sky on as many as you can.
3.Put one in an imprisoned golem in a rope trick, and one in a golem that was in a bag of holding.
4.Make one shaped like a wierdstone, and put it in a plane filled with wierdstone look alikes.
5.One on a custom positive-negative plane.
6.All of the buried ones should have wraiths and allips in the AMF.
7.Build a telescope, find the farthest star you can see. Use greater teleport to get there and shoot a bunch of them out of a cannon into space from the edge of that solar system. Scatter several at various different solar systems. If there are no other solar systems, make some heatproof and drop them into the sun.
8.Make a golem into your phylactery and cast imprisonment on it.
9.Make lots of useful items your phylacteries and give them to random people.

However, Fragmented Phylactery is an epic spell, so if you are less than level 20:

1. Get a flying castle using Stronghold builder's guide.
2. Fly it to the center of the sun.
3. Put in Tornado eyes to create a huge wind
4. Cast dimension lock and private sanctum over the entire thing.
5. Activate the prismatic walls that cover the outside.
6. Make the phylactery a stone golem.
7. Use the imprisonment trick and things to prevent scrying.
8. Craft contingent gate/summon 9 to get the strongest monster you can if anyone other than you comes in the room.
9. Fill the room with incorporeal creatures and an AMF item.
10. Fill the castle with traps.

They have to get into the sun, get through prismatic walls while in 80 mph winds in the sun, get to the center of the castle, fight monsters, move the item, fight more monsters, and cast freedom. Then fight a stone golem that should have tons of permanent buffs and enhancements.

[Inhuman Bot]

A) find out Pun-Puns favorite Object
B) make it Pun-Puns favorite object

Ta-da. NOTHING can stop you now!

Oh and you can't put a portable hole in a bag of holding. The DMG says it would then "splode.

[Chronicled]

A) find out Pun-Puns favorite Object
B) make it Pun-Puns favorite object

Ta-da. NOTHING can stop you now!

I think this is the most foolproof option.

[Enlong]

A) find out Pun-Puns favorite Object
B) make it Pun-Puns favorite object

Ta-da. NOTHING can stop you now!

Oh and you can't put a portable hole in a bag of holding. The DMG says it would then "splode.

No: Hole in a Bag, everything inside goes "pop"
Bag in a Hole, big old gate to the Astral Plane, everything is sucked in. The item still exists, but the point of Imprisonment no longer does: therefore: no release from the temporal stasis.

[Hal]

I lost track of what was happening in this thread on page 2. Still, I liked the way Shamus handled this. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=185)

Granted, it doesn't seem to be mechanically sound to any D&D spells. Still, it's a good way to discourage the players from destroying your lich's phylactery right away.

For those that don't go to the link: Destroying the phylactery results in a 100 mile radius death spell centered on the the person who "owns" it. If he manages to survive, he has a battle of will with the lich or the lich takes over his body and his soul is thrown to the void. Ouch.

[Jack_Simth]

For those planning on Imprisonment or other methods by which the phylactery goes into stasis: Where is it specified that your reappearance is on prime material (or your plane of choice) time, rather than on the phylactery's time? It could put a serious crimp in your plans if you have to find out the hard way that your DM decides you come back on the phylactery's time, rather than what you expected, when your phylactery is in utter stasis.

For those planning on using Antimagic Fields on the phylactery: Be warned: A phylactery is a magic item. You may find it doesn't function in an antimagic field.

[Gorbash]

Why not just put it in Leomund's Secret Chest?

[Jack_Simth]

Why not just put it in Leomund's Secret Chest?
Because then it is merely hiding somewhere on the ethereal plane. And, as the spell itself says, a planar expedition could be mounted to find it.

[Collin152]

For those planning on Imprisonment or other methods by which the phylactery goes into stasis: Where is it specified that your reappearance is on prime material (or your plane of choice) time, rather than on the phylactery's time? It could put a serious crimp in your plans if you have to find out the hard way that your DM decides you come back on the phylactery's time, rather than what you expected, when your phylactery is in utter stasis.

For those planning on using Antimagic Fields on the phylactery: Be warned: A phylactery is a magic item. You may find it doesn't function in an antimagic field.

Phylactery isn't in stasis, the thing holding it is.
Imprisonment is simply getting it somewhere safe.
Innacsessable, even.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I hope Xykon isn't reading this.

[Jayngfet]

Get ten bags of holding...

...Put two bags each into two other bags, put that into a bag, and that into a bag until you have no bags left.

Fill the bag with stone golems.

Fly to the moon.

Make a box out of immovable rods.

Cast invisibility on the box.

have other golems make a dungeon on the site of the box.

fill it with invisible constructs.

this is a decoy, another dungeon on the other side of the moon has the real thing.

[Jack_Simth]

Phylactery isn't in stasis, the thing holding it is.
Imprisonment is simply getting it somewhere safe.
Innacsessable, even.
Do note that, by default, the magical conditions afflicting you are also afflicting your items. Covered by 120 points of protection from Protrection From Energy? That maximized Fireball at caster level 10 isn't going to singe the scroll in your hands. Someone afflicted by Time Hop doesn't leave all his magical goodies behind. When you Teleport, you don't arrive nude, and so on.

If the thing holding your phylactery is attending it sufficiently that it goes with the critter to it's imprisonment, and is protected from divinations in the same way that the critter is, it's in an equal amount of stasis as the critter is.

[Collin152]

Do note that, by default, the magical conditions afflicting you are also afflicting your items. Covered by 120 points of protection from Protrection From Energy? That maximized Fireball at caster level 10 isn't going to singe the scroll in your hands. Someone afflicted by Time Hop doesn't leave all his magical goodies behind. When you Teleport, you don't arrive nude, and so on.

If the thing holding your phylactery is attending it sufficiently that it goes with the critter to it's imprisonment, and is protected from divinations in the same way that the critter is, it's in an equal amount of stasis as the critter is.

Still don't see then, why the Temporal Stasis effect of the Imprisonment spell would affect you. It really doesn't make any sense.

[Bauglir]

Well, it may have been mentioned, but my preferred method is to paint it white and toss it into the Positive Energy Plane, where visibility is 5 feet. Nobody will ever find it by mundane means, so now you need only worry about the magical.

[Jack_Simth]

Still don't see then, why the Temporal Stasis effect of the Imprisonment spell would affect you. It really doesn't make any sense.
Not you per se - just the time scale your phylactery uses to rejuvenate you. Next time you die, you stay dead until 1d10 days after your phylactery comes out of the Temporal Stasis portion of Imprisonment. After all, in the phylactery's frame of reference, no time has passed. Why would it use your frame of reference when you're temporarily destroyed and don't have one?

[Collin152]

Not you per se - just the time scale your phylactery uses to rejuvenate you. Next time you die, you stay dead until 1d10 days after your phylactery comes out of the Temporal Stasis portion of Imprisonment. After all, in the phylactery's frame of reference, no time has passed. Why would it use your frame of reference when you're temporarily destroyed and don't have one?

Strictly speaking, the phylactery isn't doing anything.
The ability to revive you isn't it's ability, that ability merlely ceases to function when the phylactery is destroyed.

[chiasaur11]

I think this is the most foolproof option.

Unless Pun-Pun kills you first for trying to mess with it.

[Jack_Simth]

Strictly speaking, the phylactery isn't doing anything.
The ability to revive you isn't it's ability, that ability merlely ceases to function when the phylactery is destroyed.

Core, a Lich simply reappears 1d10 days after their death as long as their phylactery still exists. No mention as to where. Strictly speaking, you could appear 1d10 days after your death, with no equipment and possibly no prepared spells, right next to a high-level Sun domain uberturning cleric that doesn't like you. Every time.

Or you could reappear with your phylactery - in stasis, just like the thing attending it.

Or you could reappear in the middle of the sun.

Or, as the phylactery is in stasis, and it contains your life force, we could measure time in regards to Lich rejuvenation in the timeline of the phylactery (that is, stopped time).

Strict RAW can get decidedly absurd. Whatever method used, you need one with no wiggle room. Imprisonment has way too much wiggle room. Or, to put it another way, why wouldn't you use the phylactery's frame of reference for the rejuvenation?

[Collin152]

Core, a Lich simply reappears 1d10 days after their death as long as their phylactery still exists. No mention as to where. Strictly speaking, you could appear 1d10 days after your death, with no equipment and possibly no prepared spells, right next to a high-level Sun domain uberturning cleric that doesn't like you. Every time.

Or you could reappear with your phylactery - in stasis, just like the thing attending it.

Or you could reappear in the middle of the sun.

Or, as the phylactery is in stasis, and it contains your life force, we could measure time in regards to Lich rejuvenation in the timeline of the phylactery (that is, stopped time).

Strict RAW can get decidedly absurd. Whatever method used, you need one with no wiggle room. Imprisonment has way too much wiggle room. Or, to put it another way, why wouldn't you use the phylactery's frame of reference for the rejuvenation?

Because then, by use of Genesis, my phylactery can revive me before I died.
Infinite clones of myself?
All with full spellcastign potential?
Yes, please.

[Laurellien]

For those planning on Imprisonment or other methods by which the phylactery goes into stasis: Where is it specified that your reappearance is on prime material (or your plane of choice) time, rather than on the phylactery's time? It could put a serious crimp in your plans if you have to find out the hard way that your DM decides you come back on the phylactery's time, rather than what you expected, when your phylactery is in utter stasis.

For those planning on using Antimagic Fields on the phylactery: Be warned: A phylactery is a magic item. You may find it doesn't function in an antimagic field.

It doesn't specify where it is that you reappear, although it is reasonable to assume that it must be in a place where there is room for you (like a teleport spell), there isn't room with the imprisoned creature, so the most viable place is the location you died.

Also, the phylactery being in an amf doesn't matter one bit. It is an ability of the lich to regenerate if it has a phylactery, not an ability of the phylactery.

[Laurellien]

Again: What good is a Phylactery that doesn't exist? The goal is to hide it, not to destroy it.

It wouldn't destroy it though. What makes you think that it would?

[Jack_Simth]

Because then, by use of Genesis, my phylactery can revive me before I died.
Infinite clones of myself?
All with full spellcastign potential?
Yes, please.
Who may or may not agree with you on a course of action? You may find you have some issues affecting things after the first go round. Or, alternately, you didn't show up previously so you can't show up now because that's the way it happened. Or the universe implodes. Or a few Inevitables (boosted to have a reasonable chance of actually succeeding) go after you in earnest for mucking about with the timeline. Inviting paradox is a very, very bad idea unless you know your DM in that regard.

Also, if you're putting your phylactery on a genesis plane outside of stasis, you're also not using that method of guarding it.

It doesn't specify where it is that you reappear, although it is reasonable to assume that it must be in a place where there is room for you (like a teleport spell), there isn't room with the imprisoned creature, so the most viable place is the location you died.

Also, the phylactery being in an amf doesn't matter one bit. It is an ability of the lich to regenerate if it has a phylactery, not an ability of the phylactery.
It's also a magical storage box for the lich's life force. What happens to the lich when the life force isn't stored anymore because the magic box became a mundane one?

[Collin152]

Who may or may not agree with you on a course of action? You may find you have some issues affecting things after the first go round. Or, alternately, you didn't show up previously so you can't show up now because that's the way it happened. Or the universe implodes. Or a few Inevitables (boosted to have a reasonable chance of actually succeeding) go after you in earnest for mucking about with the timeline. Inviting paradox is a very, very bad idea unless you know your DM in that regard.

Also, if you're putting your phylactery on a genesis plane outside of stasis, you're also not using that method of guarding it.


So clearly, it is wisest not to measure it by the Phylacterie's tiem frame.

And no, you aren't. But that's not the point.


On the point of using a private Demiplane, each Demiplane has a specific means of access. Suppose that means is specified as "Through the reformation of a lich". Only you get in, no need for precautions. Take them anyways.

[Ned the undead]

Yeah, but there'd be a double handful of golems floating in space, with bits of destroyed moon flying away from it. And they'd be... indestructible.

I've got it. Imprisonment, then Locate City Bomb the moon into oblivion. Not only would you be ridiculously awesome, but your phylactery would be so damn safe.

That would ridiculously awesome. Seriously. You explode the moon, trapping the earth in the shards. Meteors rain down constantly, as your armies march across the earth.

If the moon was destoryed the earth would wobble. Think how much that would help an undead would be conqueror.

[Jack_Simth]

So clearly, it is wisest not to measure it by the Phylacterie's tiem frame.

From the player's perspective, yes. Not necessarily from the DM's.

Of course, your DM may not tell you what frame of reference he's using before hand. In which case, you may have issues.

But then, if you're going to be going with ECL 21+ anyway, might as well play a ghost - then you've got no phylactery to worry about.


And no, you aren't. But that's not the point.


On the point of using a private Demiplane, each Demiplane has a specific means of access. Suppose that means is specified as "Through the reformation of a lich". Only you get in, no need for precautions. Take them anyways.

... and possibly find out the hard way that you can't get back out. Or someone else could find the travel clause in Wish where it mentions "regardless of local conditions" and get there that way using the safe list (or retrieve your phylactery using the safe list in a similar manner, if it is currently an attended object).

[Chronos]

If you allow a Genesis plane to have backwards time, then you can get multiple copies of yourself just by overlapping yourself. No phylactery or icky naughty undead-ness required. So I don't think it's too important to point out that you can also do it with a phylactery.

[Collin152]

From the player's perspective, yes. Not necessarily from the DM's.

Of course, your DM may not tell you what frame of reference he's using before hand. In which case, you may have issues.

But then, if you're going to be going with ECL 21+ anyway, might as well play a ghost - then you've got no phylactery to worry about.


Most DMs don't allow their players to play a Lich.
It gets out of hand, being immortal.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most DMs don't allow their players to play a Lich.
It gets out of hand, being immortal.

Not really. And your better off as an Elan or Warforged (and with PaO you can become either permanently) if all you want is immortality. No LA and fewer side effects.

[Collin152]

Not really. And your better off as an Elan or Warforged (and with PaO you can become either permanently) if all you want is immortality. No LA and fewer side effects.

I diddn't mean age. I meant...
"Ah, the sun is exploding, destroying the entire solar system! And I'm caught in the blast!"
Two weeks later, in Sigil...
"Let's do it again!...Guys?"

[Emperor Tippy]

I diddn't mean age. I meant...
"Ah, the sun is exploding, destroying the entire solar system! And I'm caught in the blast!"
Two weeks later, in Sigil...
"Let's do it again!...Guys?"

Yeah, thats what you have Astral Projection for.

[Collin152]

Yeah, thats what you have Astral Projection for.

Doesn't take much to kill me.
Enemy wizard learns that's what I'm doing.
Enemy wizard mindrapes an entire leiion of Githyanki over time.
Finds silver cord via magic.
Legion severs cord.

[Zeful]

Doesn't take much to kill me.
Enemy wizard learns that's what I'm doing.
Enemy wizard mindrapes an entire legion of Githyanki over time.
Finds silver cord via magic.
Legion severs cord.

Worse.
Animates Silver Cord (it's an object).
Awakens Silver Cord.
Mindrapes Silver Cord.
Makes Silver cord strangle you.

[FlyMolo]

The trick is to make it happier for the majority of people that you be alive rather than dead. Vetinari style.

If killing you is an inconvenience, other people will go out of their way to save you.

[Collin152]

The trick is to make it happier for the majority of people that you be alive rather than dead. Vetinari style.

If killing you is an inconvenience, other people will go out of their way to save you.

Therefore, make something important your phylactery. Something people don't want destroyed.
A relic of an important deity, perhaps?
The crown jewels?

[monty]

I think 8-Bit Theatre did that pretty well.

(spoilered just in case)
What's-his-name the lich had his soul in the earth gem. They had to choose between destroying the world and destroying the lich. Until Thief stole his soul out of the gem (since it wasn't nailed down).

[Rizban]

An evil lich can still rule benevolently and with the best intentions for his populace. Peasants may randomly disappear and be tortured to death for his amusement, but really, what's safer that having an entire kingdom of people, including your own Batman Wizards, vying for your continued survival. You may be evil, but if a few lawful, near good, acts designed for your personal protection shouldn't be impossible. Plus, being a good leader gives you a populace more willing to march to war and die for your cause.

[monty]

An evil lich can still rule benevolently and with the best intentions for his populace. Peasants may randomly disappear and be tortured to death for his amusement, but really, what's safer that having an entire kingdom of people, including your own Batman Wizards, vying for your continued survival. You may be evil, but if a few lawful, near good, acts designed for your personal protection shouldn't be impossible. Plus, being a good leader gives you a populace more willing to march to war and die for your cause.

Who says that you have to be evil? I don't remember where I saw it, but even "Always" alignments have exceptions. Or you could be one of the non-evil lich variants.

[FlyMolo]

Who says that you have to be evil? I don't remember where I saw it, but even "Always" alignments have exceptions. Or you could be one of the non-evil lich variants.

A group of evil advisors trick you into performing the lich ritual, in hopes of getting the populace completely pissed at you, so they can seize power. It backfires, and you kill them all. The people support you, and you entrust your phylactery to them, in a gesture of trust.

[Enlong]

A group of evil advisors trick you into performing the lich ritual, in hopes of getting the populace completely pissed at you, so they can seize power. It backfires, and you kill them all. The people support you, and you entrust your phylactery to them, in a gesture of trust.
You sure? It says that the process is unspeakably evil, and can only be done by a willing person. Not sure how far one can be tricked into doing the ritual.

[monty]

You could be like the senile lihc [sic] and accidentally do it while making breakfast.

[Collin152]

You could be like the senile lihc [sic] and accidentally do it while making breakfast.

Can't make an omlette without committing unspeakable acts of horror and despair.

[FlyMolo]

You sure? It says that the process is unspeakably evil, and can only be done by a willing person. Not sure how far one can be tricked into doing the ritual.

I read somewhere that you kill someone half your age and someone twice your age. If they hire assassins and give the king a knife (and the assassins sucked) It could work. If you had a high-level cleric under the bed.

[Turcano]

Here are my notes for my favorite BBEG, a demilich:


As a demilich, Lathspell can only be permanently killed through destruction of his phylactery; however, doing so is extraordinarily difficult. First, the phylactery is in Lathspell’s personal demiplane, which is strongly negative-dominant. In the center of the demiplane is a spherical building 500 ft. in diameter, made of magically-treated adamantium with a hardness of 40 and 4800 hp, so any physical attack is bound to fail. Furthermore, any spell directed at it is turned as though it were affected by a greater spell turning spell. Furthermore, a dimensional lock spell prevents extraplanar travel into or out of the building. A single door (A) is located in an alcove in the wall; any attempt to open the door without Lathspell’s soul gems in immediate proximity teleports the intruder to the edge of the demiplane as teleportation circle. A character who manages to penetrate this barrier will be teleported to points (B1) or (B2) inside the building.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4085/phylacteryvaulttj8.png

The building consists of two nearly-identical hemispherical rooms; gravity always orients toward the circular floor, which is patrolled by two dozen iron golems. Both rooms feature a column 80-ft. in diameter reaching ten feet to the ceiling. All of the space above the level of ten feet above the floor is filled with an antimagic field, preventing the use of magical flight. The player must reach the mouth of the column by the use of handholds, which require a Climb check at DC 25; each of the handholds is coated with terinav root and black lotus extract. When the player reaches the top of the dome, he or she must drop to the bottom of the column, which entails falling through three fields of greater dispel magic (area effect) and three prismatic walls; antimagic fields fill the spaces between these fields. At the bottom of this column is a puzzle trap (C); the instructions are written in an extremely long-dead language, necessitating a Decipher Script check at DC 40 to unravel. Failure triggers a heightened finger of death and a maximized destruction; success teleports the player to points (D1) or (D2).

The second room is identical to the first, with two exceptions: the player must pass through six prismatic walls instead of three, and an adamantine roof 70 ft. in diameter prevents direct access to the center of the column; the roof is supported by six 30-ft. adamantine pillars. At the bottom of this column is Lathspell’s phylactery, as well as the phylacteries of his lieutenants, on a dias in the center of the column (E), which is surrounded by twelve adamantine golems. Every square foot of this area is trapped with proximity-triggered, automatically resetting chain lightning, polar ray, and heightened finger of death traps. A button on the underside of the roof (F) suppresses the dimensional lock for one round.

[Enlong]

OK. I just thought of a couple more things to aid the "Moon Golem Method"

Before Imprisoning the golems, cast Status on them and permancy that (or an item of Status if your DM says you can't do that), so that you and only you are aware of their location and status at all times.

After exploding the moon, the one problem you'll have is how to protect that spot in space where the Imprisonment happened. I think I've come up with the good method. Put the AMF object in space in the area where the Imprisonment happened and lock its position somehow. Around the field, put a Private Sanctum up, so that the Sanctum encloses the AMF. Finally, inside the AMF, right on top of the spot where the Imprisonment happened, stick a Sphere of Annihilation with Permanancied Invisibility, surrounded by a Permanancied Prismatic Sphere, and six Permanancied Walls of Force, each inscribed with multiple Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigils, Symbols of Death, Insanity, Persuasion, Sleep, Pain, what have you. All permanancied, of course (you've got a Thought Bottle, use it!)
To cap it all off, put a Permanancied Alarm spell on the area, using the "Mental Alarm" variant. That way, if someone actually breaches the Antimagic Field, the Alarm will go off and you will know they're there. Cue you zooming up there to off them, Soul Bind or wipe their memories as needed.

[Chronos]

Turcano, the problem with that is that you're depending on the PCs following the implicit rules. What's to stop a psion from spending a few hours to breach the walls using Energy Wall? Or a wizard Disjoining the AMFs and Prismatic Walls? For that matter, if the walls really are unbreachable, why bother including the paths through the prismatics etc. at all? Why not just completely encase the phylactery?

[Worira]

Or a barbarian, without using magic or raging, tunneling through it in about 12 minutes?

[Turcano]

Turcano, the problem with that is that you're depending on the PCs following the implicit rules. What's to stop a psion from spending a few hours to breach the walls using Energy Wall? Or a wizard Disjoining the AMFs and Prismatic Walls? For that matter, if the walls really are unbreachable, why bother including the paths through the prismatics etc. at all? Why not just completely encase the phylactery?

Well, I don't use psionics, the magic effects reset themselves every round, and I want access to be ball-bustingly difficult, not impossible.


Or a barbarian, without using magic or raging, tunneling through it in about 12 minutes?

I suppose you could simply have the walls be walls of force that are plated with adamantium to negate the transparency.

[Tokiko Mima]

Just make sure none of them accidentally turn out to be
plot armoured boy wizards.

And if they do, quit with all the villianous menacing. Do nothing until you're all back together. Then as soon as you're back at 100% go kill him, quick and clean and without any copious foreshadowing several books ahead of time. :smalltongue:

[Eldritch_Ent]

Really, the problem with Imprisonment, AMF and vanishing interdimensional spaces is, the phylactery needs to exist and retain it's magical properties to function. and if it's currently "not magical" or otherwise seperated from the time stream or otherwise out-of-plane, well, you might as not have a phylactery at all.

[Adumbration]

I find the Force Chest spell from Spell compedium very useful, at least on medium levels.

[Tyrmatt]

Personally my favourite method is greed on the part of the players.
The phylactery is a single, burnished gold ring that's been made to read as non-magical, worth a small, but significant amount of cash. It turns up in the loot tables for the encouter, hidden amongst useful, powerful and most importantly, cool magical items. As a result, the ring is pawned off for cash. 1d10 days later, a shopkeeper loses a gold ring and a long hooded robe to apparent thievery. Result: the PC's get a frightful surprise a few weeks down the line when the Lich or some high powdered undead lackeys show up and begin kicking their asses.
In fact, for an even better hiding place, have your lich leave the ring in the pawnshop. The PC's will have a hell of a time finding it after that, especially if they haven't worked out that it is the phylactery. Clearly leave a few decoys lying around the lair for maximum effect.
That actually just gave me a great idea to murderise a party and have them reroll new characters some 80 years down the line where the Lich is the evil overlord of the land. Give them a second shot at it with perhaps a hint. Say a halfling duke who has an unnaturally long lifespan...
Classically known as the Sauron Defense :p

[Jack_Simth]

Personally my favourite method is greed on the part of the players.
The phylactery is a single, burnished gold ring that's been made to read as non-magical
(Nystal's) Magic Aura will do the job - but only for 1 day per caster level. You can incorporate it into the item, but that requires a custom magic item - which, as the DM, is fine, however....

, worth a small, but significant amount of cash. It turns up in the loot tables for the encouter, hidden amongst useful, powerful and most importantly, cool magical items. As a result, the ring is pawned off for cash. 1d10 days later, a shopkeeper loses a gold ring and a long hooded robe to apparent thievery.
Note: Occasionally, someone gets an item just to melt it down for materials. Relatively common with metals, especially gold. Careful with this if you're doing it for your own phylactery (DM's doing it for their favorite BBEG Lich need not worry).

Result: the PC's get a frightful surprise a few weeks down the line when the Lich or some high powdered undead lackeys show up and begin kicking their asses.
In fact, for an even better hiding place, have your lich leave the ring in the pawnshop
Do note: If you do this, it will, eventually, be destroyed due to someone wanting to melt it down for materials. Or just an idiot who put it on, left it on, and got so fat it started cutting off the circulation to their fingers and they had to have the ring cut off. Not a good idea for a player-lich (DM's doing it for their favorite BBEG Lich need not worry).

. The PC's will have a hell of a time finding it after that, especially if they haven't worked out that it is the phylactery. Clearly leave a few decoys lying around the lair for maximum effect.
Do note: Players tend to get annoyed if you don't leave them sufficient clues as to what is going on.


That actually just gave me a great idea to murderise a party and have them reroll new characters some 80 years down the line where the Lich is the evil overlord of the land. Give them a second shot at it with perhaps a hint. Say a halfling duke who has an unnaturally long lifespan...
Classically known as the Sauron Defense :p
His rings were kinda obviously magical.

[DigoDragon]

"I cast Legend Lore to figure out the location of the Phylactery. Then, to save on postage, I cast Wish to have the Phylactery appear before me. Finally, I'll smash it with a hammer!" :smallbiggrin:

Works for me.

My personal opinion is that the best way to get mileage on your Phylactery is to built it as an item that has some great importance to the heroes. Because PCs are stubborn enough that they WILL eventually find a way to get you and your little Phylactery too. Besides, there's nothing like going out in a glorious battle where the party epic Fighter learns that his ancestrial greatsword is keeping your soul safe and warm all these years just so that you can see the look on his face when the cleric waves his hammer at it shouting "For the good of the world!" and then watch the fighter cry when his favorite sword is shattered. :smalltongue:

But that's probably just my thoughts on imortality-- It's not how long you live, but it's what story you leave behind when you're gone.

[Enlong]

"I cast Legend Lore to figure out the location of the Phylactery. Then, to save on postage, I cast Wish to have the Phylactery appear before me. Finally, I'll smash it with a hammer!" :smallbiggrin:

Works for me.

My personal opinion is that the best way to get mileage on your Phylactery is to built it as an item that has some great importance to the heroes. Because PCs are stubborn enough that they WILL eventually find a way to get you and your little Phylactery too. Besides, there's nothing like going out in a glorious battle where the party epic Fighter learns that his ancestrial greatsword is keeping your soul safe and warm all these years just so that you can see the look on his face when the cleric waves his hammer at it shouting "For the good of the world!" and then watch the fighter cry when his favorite sword is shattered. :smalltongue:

But that's probably just my thoughts on imortality-- It's not how long you live, but it's what story you leave behind when you're gone.
"Allright. An army of stone golems appears before you. One of them has the phylactery within. Oh, and they're Imprisoned, so no harming them!"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Really, the problem with Imprisonment, AMF and vanishing interdimensional spaces is, the phylactery needs to exist and retain it's magical properties to function. and if it's currently "not magical" or otherwise seperated from the time stream or otherwise out-of-plane, well, you might as not have a phylactery at all.Read my post. I go into that much detail in order to leave it magical, but unreachable.

[throtecutter]

How about a lich makes a Genises plane where one round on that plane is 10,000 years on the material. Then tells everyone stronger than it, he knows where a phylactery they should destroy is. Every 8000 year, repeat.

[Malachite]

Is there any way to make a permanent Magic Mansion? If so, you're sorted: "Only those you designate may enter the mansion". No exceptions. Otherwise, the "infinitely unlikely to be found" idea sounds good, combined with having a more traditional looking thing in the depths of your secret lair, with a strong necromantic aura and a contingent spell to collapse the lair on its destruction. That should convince any party that they've destroyed you. You then take on a new identity, rinse and repeat, giving them no indication you're the same lich. Sure, someone may get wise eventually, but you are after all one of the most ancient and skilled wizards in the world. If you can't deal with a threat with the knowledge it's coming, you're pretty screwed anyway.

Personally, my lich NPC has most of the above - a well hidden phylactery with obvious and less obvious decoys, a near epic spell caster in a low level campaign world, rules a successful town by democratic vote because of said spell-casting prowess bringing success and protection to the town, no-one knowing he's a lich (and because he's kept his original body uncorrupted, there's few real ways of proving he is one), and being fairly well liked by the townspeople. People tend to be on your side when you do tricks for their kids.
Basically, he loves and protects his town, but will act utterly ruthlessly to protect it. He's not meant to be defeated, he's meant to blur the boundaries in the camaign world and remind the PCs that they can't do anything with impunity just because they can beat armies.