Was Xykon possessed by some chaotic evil entity when he was a baby-or just a jerk PC?

[paladinofshojo]

OK this is going to be my LAST Xykon thread since some of you people are complaining about them:smallannoyed:.............but there's one thing I don't get, what made Xykon so vicious and cruel? He was raised in a normal household and yet he acted evil from the start....I seriously doubt that there was an event that caused him to become evil...if so someone please tell me. There's also the fact that he gives little regard to all plot points rather the ones that affect him the most(such as Right-Eye's betrayal).....he doesn't remember his own nemesis's name and he doesn't even give a damn about ruling the world even if he rules it, he's only doing it becuase he can and it's there........plus some of his acts would be expected from a jerk-ass PC, like killing an innocent bystander and taking his headwear for the hell of it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

[The Extinguisher]

He's just evil.

Some people are.

[David Argall]

Our writer has already answered the question. There is no reason. Any such reason would either be unreal or give us a reason to sympathize with someone we are supposed to deem entirely evil. So he is simply evil and there is no explanation as to why.

[Kish]

OK this is going to be my LAST Xykon thread since some of you people are complaining about them:smallannoyed:.............but there's one thing I don't get, what made Xykon so vicious and cruel? He was raised in a normal household and yet he acted evil from the start....I seriously doubt that there was an event that caused him to become evil...if so someone please tell me.
Start of Darkness spoilers.

At the age of four, he had enough of a heart to love his dog. Then he discovered he had incredible power and, thus, minimal accountability for his actions. He grew up warped accordingly, and gave away his fundamental humanity for immortality and still more power.

I wonder, even, if Redcloak shaped Xykon's current moral standing even as Xykon shaped Redcloak's. We know that Xykon (correctly, in my opinion) regards Redcloak's "whiny 'evil, but for a good cause' crap" with contempt. He considers himself superior because he's just evil. If he didn't have Redcloak to compare himself to, would he still deliberately avoid being anything but pure evil?

[BRC]

Xykon is just plain evil. Nothing, not even the "His daddy didn't love him" That is usually used to justify the actions of omnicidal self centered maniacs. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, I sure don't but Xykon shows that it can get pretty darn evil in there, even when said heart isn't technically there.

[someonenonotyou]

he gets bored easly evil = fun
well untill you get caught

[zergling001]

Xykon just is lazy and needs action and comedy

[Mauve Shirt]

He chose to be evil when creating his character. :P

[Chronos]

Even if Xykon were posessed by some evil entity, that still wouldn't explain anything, because then we'd have the question of why that posessing entity is evil. Xykon is one of those evil entities everyone always warns you about.

[eilandesq]

I think once he discovered that "reanimating dead things to do what I want them to" was his nifty new power, he was pretty much going to turn out evil. It would take an extraordinary individual to possess that ability and *not* abuse it in ways that would horrify most sane human beings--and Xykon was never the brightest bulb in the bank.

[Raging Gene Ray]

some of his acts would be expected from a jerk-ass PC

You mean like Xykon?

[FoE]

He was a psychopath when he was mortal; he was probably never mistreated as a child by his parents because they were terrified of him. Becoming a lich has only made him worse by eradicating what little humanity he possessed.

[JoshuaZ]

I think once he discovered that "reanimating dead things to do what I want them to" was his nifty new power, he was pretty much going to turn out evil. It would take an extraordinary individual to possess that ability and *not* abuse it in ways that would horrify most sane human beings--and Xykon was never the brightest bulb in the bank.

Really? I mean compared to most highly abusable powers (such as say telepathy) reanimation is pretty hard to abuse badly. I'd likely say no to the choice of having telepathy because of the temptation/corruption but animating dead things is much harder to abuse. So I can get a few convenient servants that if I'm lucky don't look to obviously dead. And anyways, Xykon starts off being evil even without faced with temptation:


In Start of Darkness after he animates his dog spontaneously and watches the dog devour a bird, he then thinks that is so cool he wants to find other birds to watch the zombie dog devour.

[EvilJames]

Psychopaths don't always have a reason they became psychopaths, sometimes they just are. This also goes back to one of your previous posts, in that psychopaths don't generally feel a need to justify their actions. Example: Ted Bundy killed people and felt he deserved respect because he was getting away with it. He never had a reason, no traumatic or tragic past, just a desire to do bad things because he felt he could.

[DreadSpoon]

Xykon is a classic example of a fundamentally bad person who realizes there is no reason NOT to be bad. Our society has laws for a reason -- if people didn't just turn out bad sometimes, we'd not need laws to tell people what they'll get in trouble for doing.

You don't need a traumatic background to turn out bad. Maybe his parents just paid a little less attention to him than they should have. They they paid a little TOO MUCH attention to him during the wrong years. Maybe the friends he hung out with at school were bad folks. Maybe he watched too many violent shows on TEEVO as a kid. Maybe he never watched any violent shows and never found another outlet for anger. Maybe he was bullied as a kid, maybe he WAS a bully as a kid and never got put in his place. Maybe his has a chemical imbalance, maybe he was born under the wrong star sign, maybe a travelling necromancer caught his attention, maybe he had an odd diet or odd living conditions that warped his psychological development as a youngster, maybe he had an accident that changed his outlook on life, maybe he never had anything spectacular happen to GIVE him a positive outlook on life...

Maybe he's just Evil because he is Evil.

[factotum]

Nature or nurture, which is it? Probably both. Xykon was born with selfish and evil tendencies, and nothing in his upbringing damped those down; if anything, they were fuelled once he found his power. I doubt there was ever a time when Xykon would have been described as a pleasant person to be around, though.

[Remirach]

but there's one thing I don't get, what made Xykon so vicious and cruel?

Nothing in particular. Some people are born sociopaths. There wasn't some event that pushed Xykon down the path of evil, he just took the ball and ran with it.


There's also the fact that he gives little regard to all plot points rather the ones that affect him the most(such as Right-Eye's betrayal).....
Why should he pay much attention to the plot points that don't affect him?


he doesn't remember his own nemesis's name

He doesn't take Roy seriously as a "nemesis." He's a pure-classed fighter trying to take on a lich sorcerer, while being several levels his inferior to boot. Xykon majorly outclasses him. Yes, in their first encounter Roy destroyed Xykon's body and his team blew up the dungeon, but that proved to be little more than a temporary inconvenience for Xykon. So he didn't dwell on it.


and he doesn't even give a damn about ruling the world even if he rules it, he's only doing it becuase he can and it's there........

"Because it's there" was the most famous reason ever given for a person to attempt to scale Mt. Everest. Conquering the world is like the supervillain equivalent. Maybe it's more trouble than it's worth, but serious bragging rights entail. Besides, it WOULD give him vast scope to indulge his personal interests...


plus some of his acts would be expected from a jerk-ass PC, like killing an innocent bystander and taking his headwear for the hell of it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html
I'm sort of failing to see your point?

[King of Nowhere]

I have to disagree with those who say that he has no reason to be evil; I mean, people don't born with a personality, they develop it as a consequence of what happen to them, so there must have been a series of events that led him to what he's now.
I agree that his power was the source of this. He developed his powers at an age where you don't have the mind to look at the consequences of what you're doing. He explicitly said that his powers make him better than others. By the way, believing themselves uberpowerful and super-importantseem to be a common flaw among arcane caster in oots. Then, in that little village probably there was no one as strong as him, so no one could put him at his place, renforcing his belief that he was better and other people were here to serve him.
Generally, you start being good because you care about people you love, and then extend your caring to other people. But Xykon felt better than other people, so he could have never loved them, worthless scum. One can also do good expecting that other people will do good to him (I don't call this good because its motivations are egoistic, but it can still make people do good act). But Xykon was powerful, he didn't need other people, so even this path for good was precluded to him.
And, laughing at the pain of others is pretty common for a child, and he never had any reason to stop doing so. That dragged him to deeply evil.

[ref]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Pie Guy]

I have to disagree with those who say that he has no reason to be evil; I mean, people don't born with a personality, they develop it as a consequence of what happen to them, so there must have been a series of events that led him to what he's now.
I agree that his power was the source of this. He developed his powers at an age where you don't have the mind to look at the consequences of what you're doing. He explicitly said that his powers make him better than others. By the way, believing themselves uberpowerful and super-importantseem to be a common flaw among arcane caster in oots. Then, in that little village probably there was no one as strong as him, so no one could put him at his place, renforcing his belief that he was better and other people were here to serve him.
Generally, you start being good because you care about people you love, and then extend your caring to other people. But Xykon felt better than other people, so he could have never loved them, worthless scum. One can also do good expecting that other people will do good to him (I don't call this good because its motivations are egoistic, but it can still make people do good act). But Xykon was powerful, he didn't need other people, so even this path for good was precluded to him.
And, laughing at the pain of others is pretty common for a child, and he never had any reason to stop doing so. That dragged him to deeply evil.

Actually, sociopaths have a brain imbalance sometimes. And I've heard of killings for less than a peice of head ware.

[Beholder1995]

Hang on. I've heard people say that Xykon is 'just evil'. Always has been, always will be, without any chance at all of redemption. Well, I'm pretty sure that's not what 'evil' is. Evil means that you turn away from doing good things. Xykon, apparently, has never had the option to do good, because he is 'just evil.' Belkar is more evil than Xykon in my opinion, because Belkar has something like a consience, and has the willpower and the option to do good things, he just refuses to because he loves killing and murdering too much. Xykon just murders because he apparently does not have the option to do good and is, well, 'just evil'.

[Morty]

Hang on. I've heard people say that Xykon is 'just evil'. Always has been, always will be, without any chance at all of redemption. Well, I'm pretty sure that's not what 'evil' is. Evil means that you turn away from doing good things. Xykon, apparently, has never had the option to do good, because he is 'just evil.' Belkar is more evil than Xykon in my opinion, because Belkar has something like a consience, and has the willpower and the option to do good things, he just refuses to because he loves killing and murdering too much. Xykon just murders because he apparently does not have the option to do good and is, well, 'just evil'.

Ummm... what? Since when is evil "turning away from doing good things"? Evil is performing evil acts or at least being ready and willing to perform them, that's it. It's how it is in the rules. I don't see how not having any conscience to ignore makes you less evil.

[Khanderas]

(Shakes a magic 8-ball)
All signs point to yes.

[Egmorn]

I really don't see the point of this thread.

OOTS is based on D&D. In D&D characters (PC and NPC) are alligned. Whatever their age, sexe or race.
This determine whether they are evil or not. Of course one can justify this allignment with background. But OOTS is a parody and is quite often following the rules to the extreme.
When Xykon was born, his character sheet was created. On this character sheet, there was an allignment. I think everythink point that from the beginning he was Chaotic Evil.

Therefore, he doesn't need to justify his action, he is chaotic evil. He doesn't need any tragic background: He is chaotic evil. He was so from the begining because he was created as such.

In real life one can argue that you don't come to life evil, you become evil through bad experience, disease or necessity. But OOTS is not real life it never was, never will be and never intended to be. It is a parodic simulation of life freely based on D&D rules. Thats all.

[the_tick_rules]

He's a sociopath, he always has been. He's cruel, selfish, uncaring about the consequences of his actions, and derives pleasure from hurting people. He has no psychological or emotional trauma as an excuse, he's just a "bad egg" so to speak.

[Beholder1995]

Does anyone remember that srip waaaaay back there, when Elan was explaining the plot to Belkar? I believe he said the Xykon was 'mad with his own power'. Does that mean Xykon is criminally insane?

[EvilJames]

I don't think he is insane. He's always presented himself as fairly rational. You are technically right when you say that he does have to have a reason to be evil. When we say he doesn't have a reason, what we mean is he doesn't have a specific reason like abuse or emotional trauma or anything like that. He very simply just didn't turn out quite right. Despite his parents efforts. The reason isn't something we can pin down, there wasn't a defining moment. He just made his choices and ended up this way.

[mentatzarkon]

Does anyone remember that srip waaaaay back there, when Elan was explaining the plot to Belkar? I believe he said the Xykon was 'mad with his own power'. Does that mean Xykon is criminally insane?

Hee hee, "I tried going mad without power, no fun at all!"

It doesn't seem to me that Xykon is insane, except maybe with boredom. Anyway, on the subject of good vs. evil alignment in DnD, it's always seemed to me that objectively speaking a character of evil alignment is actually committing 'good' acts when he does unspeakably evil things. I mean, he's pleasing the evil gods, right? It's almost like an evil characters responsibility to torture, maim and kill. Of course, he does seem to have just a bit too much fun doing it.

[Behold_the_Void]

Xykon's a ****. That's... basically it.

[Remirach]

I have to disagree with those who say that he has no reason to be evil; I mean, people don't born with a personality, they develop it as a consequence of what happen to them, so there must have been a series of events that led him to what he's now.
That's the nurture-verses-nature argument, but most of what I've read says that personality really depends a lot on both -- your upbringing influences your personality, but it isn't the sole determining factor. I think Xykon was going to turn out bad no matter what happened to him, although his encounter with Xavion probably did something to make him feel he had to prove he was superior to wizards.

Hang on. I've heard people say that Xykon is 'just evil'. Always has been, always will be, without any chance at all of redemption. Well, I'm pretty sure that's not what 'evil' is. Evil means that you turn away from doing good things. Xykon, apparently, has never had the option to do good, because he is 'just evil.'
I wouldn't agree, not if he has a working understanding of what the difference between good and evil is and he chooses to be evil. He's had plenty of opportunity to do good, he just doesn't want to. Because he enjoys being evil. And there isn't some complicated rationale or traumatizing backstory that goes into that.

Belkar is more evil than Xykon in my opinion, because Belkar has something like a consience, and has the willpower and the option to do good things, he just refuses to because he loves killing and murdering too much. Xykon just murders because he apparently does not have the option to do good and is, well, 'just evil'.
I'd take 435 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) as proof positive that Belkar doesn't have a functional conscience either, as literally represented by the two devils. The difference between him and Xykon is that he's still mortal -- he isn't literally a walking abomination of pure animated evil. If you'd take Belkar's occasional demonstrations of loyalty as proof that he's worse than Xykon, that's, well... backwards, in my opinion.

[Kletian999]

Start of Darkness related


It seems in OOtS physiology all Sorcerers are inherently scorned- feared for their magical potential yet mocked for simplemindedness. The XMen reference said it best "why would I want to protect a world that hates me?"

Powers set in before he could really learn much about right and wrong, the sometimes sadistic pre-tween phase where bullying behavior begins- being good at necromancy meant he never suffered the pain of loss/consequences of violence; and his earliest evil acts were retaliation for being treated stupid and dangerous.

Tvtropes has the concept: Bad Powers Bad People- he served an evil Overlord because who else would except a Sorcerer/Necromancer. Then he vowed to surpass them in evil when they mocked his intelligence again. That said; his pre-recloak actions were soley in the realm of "kill it to watch it die for fun" exercising his killing magic... well, that and "Steal hat because it's cool."

Becoming a Lich clearly made him the monster of today- "You never told me I'd no longer taste!"- that man loved his coffee. With his loss of pleasure from food and other flesh things, and his new inability to sleep, and the 8 hour "work limitation" all that remained was his sadistic glee to fill the hours. He mentions this many times, like the trials of Ochul.

[Eric]

I have to disagree with those who say that he has no reason to be evil; I mean, people don't born with a personality, they develop it as a consequence of what happen to them, so there must have been a series of events that led him to what he's now.

You say this, but give no reason why this must be true.

As the Boomtown Rats once said "I can see no reasons. Cos there are no reasons. What reason do you need to die?"

We are at times evil. Often because what we see as possible is as far as we look. Some people never feel there are downsides (Thomas Covenant stated in the Stephen Donaldson [a man never to let one verb do when twenty adjectives can be shoehorned in] something like "Power without consequences is what it means to be Damned"). Some people don't see the connection with others (sociopaths) and as long as it isn't THEM being hurt, there's no problem.

So IRL, we have people who are occasionally evil, some who are consistently evil.

But no reason for the evil has ever seemed to be necessary.

You have assertion but no reason.

[King of Nowhere]

I have to disagree with those who say that he has no reason to be evil; I mean, people don't born with a personality, they develop it as a consequence of what happen to them, so there must have been a series of events that led him to what he's now.
You say this, but give no reason why this must be true.
I'm just saying that the personality of everyone is shaped by his life. There are plenty of evidence that genetics has little influence in that, it's life experience (cultural environment, relationship with family...) that counts. I'm not referring specifically to evilness or evil acts. I'm not saying there is a reason for every evil act of Xykon, I'm saying there is a reason if he's Evil with capital E instead of less evil, or neutral, or good.

But no reason for the evil has ever seemed to be necessary.
I read that as "there are no reason behind Xykon's evil acts". In that I agree, Xykon enjoys doing evil acts for no reason, but there must be a reason if he's grown up like this, if he developed that personality instead of any other personality, and I was speculating about that.

[Lord_Drayakir]

I actually just realized something.

Xykon is a sorcerer, who developed an affinity for necromancy spells, right? Now, I know this point was already brought up by several people, but I can actually see how this works:

1- Necromancy, first and foremost allows to bring people back to life... sorta. So, basically, Xykon, while a CHILD learns a lesson: that if you kill someone, you can bring them back.

2- When you do bring them back, they will obey your commands. Now, what could a child want more than to be lavished with gifts, candy, etc.? All he has to do is wish/focus really hard, and a old Farmer Joe who died when a horse bolted (for example. Like I said, I didn't read SoD). So he wishes, and bingo Farmer Joe comes over his house, and since kids are kids, they will think that a corpse is either scary or cool. Xykon was obviously the kid who thought that corpses are cool. Anyway, so then he wants his parents to buy him something, but they won't. So what does he logically think to himself?

a) If I wish hard enough, people that died obey my wishes. b) Farmer Joe obeys my wishes. c) My parents won't buy me something, I HATE them! d) I wish they would die!

Now, check this out: Zombie Farmer Joe obeys his master's angry outburst, and kills Xykon's parents. Now, since he's angry, he doesn't care that they died BECAUSE he knows that he can bring them back, and make them buy him the gift. So he wishes for them to get up from the sticky red juice they're lying in, and get him the present. But zombies are stupid, so what do they do, they go and kill the toy store owner, and bring him the toy he wanted so badly!

To add more fuel to the flame of insanity, Xykon finds out about the dead toymaker, and wishes for him to bring him all of the toys in the store. Which the zombie shop-owner does. So for a couple of hours Xykon is amused with everything in the store. At this point, everybody in the village fled. But little tyke Xykon wants to play with his children. So what does he tell his parents, Joe, and the toymaker? He tells them to bring all the kids from school.

At this point it doesn't really matter whether the zombies will kill the kids first, or bring him to Xykon. He'll eventually want to be the coolest kid and have other kids do his bidding. So he wishes really hard, and the kids that were killed by the zombies rise again.


So at this point, Xykon knows that people are nicer to him after he kills them and raises them. So he starts seeing people as THINGS, not relating to them- and as far as my psychology classes taught me, that's one of the hallmarks of the psychopath.

[Selene]

As the Boomtown Rats once said "I can see no reasons. Cos there are no reasons. What reason do you need to die?"

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Also, it's a damned good song. Gives me chills.

[RebelRogue]

I thought up an explanation, but it is pretty much the same as Lord_Drayakirs, only he explained it in greater detail! Good work.

BTW, I'd say you're pretty badass if you have the powers of a level 8+ Sorcerer at age 4! Xykon truly is naturally gifted!

[pendell]

Something this argument is missing is the element of choice.

We can argue nature (Xykon is just bad) or nurture (something bad happened to Xykon to MAKE him bad) but I argue a third element .. Xykon CHOSE to be bad.

Talk about nature for a second ... yeah, some people are born with real problems. But some people also manage to overcome those problems. There are whole societies of people struggling to overcome their genetic alcoholism.

Nurture the same thing ... perhaps Xykon had something bad happen to him as a kid. Boo hoo. EVERYONE has something bad happen to him as a kid. I grew up an only child in a strange neighborhood, was the smallest weakest kid, and was ferociously bullied. And yet somehow *I* didn't turn out to be Raistlin Majere or a Columbine psychopath. In addition to religious things (which we can't discuss here), the bottom line is that I *chose* not to be.

Probably everybody here who is not currently in prison can tell the same story -- somewhere along the line, something bad happened to you. And you could have used that as an excuse and a justification for all kind of immoral acts and yet you didn't. Why? Because you didn't take the excuse. You *chose* the better path.

I think the fundamental turning point in Xykon's character is in the second strip, when he interviews the professor at approx 12 years old. The professor offers him a chance to do good and save the world.

Xykon's response: "Why would I want to do that?"

Xykon, you see, is making a free, willing, deliberate, conscience choice to take no action that does not benefit him, personally. He is now ... and throughout the entire strip -- entirely ignores the welfare of other beings, being concerned solely with his own.

Xykon CHOSE evil. He was not born evil, and he was not made evil. He CHOSE evil.
He had loving parents and a good home. Of course he had pretexts for being bad. But he also had excuses for turning out good. HE chose which he would follow.

He's not demon-possessed. He's simply raw, uncontrolled, pure human Id, coupled with near-unlimited power to make all his wishes come true. And consequently he is a destructive force of nature, a menace to friends and enemies alike.

That's why he's evil, and that's why he's a villain. We have no indications that he suffers from any psychiatric disorder. He doesn't have empathy or compassion for other living beings because he *chooses* not to. Because he doesn't care about them in the slightest. A narcissistic three-year-old who made the choice never to grow up, coupled with the power such that no one can force him to. I think the psychiatric term is 'sociopath', but I also think there's a difference between someone who's sociopathic due to brain damage and someone who just doesn't give a damn about others.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TorJin]

OK this is going to be my LAST Xykon thread since some of you people are complaining about them:smallannoyed:.............

My only issue with your threads is that you create them, then ignore them. I think in all...what is it now, 9? threads that you've made, you've replied a grand total of I think 4 times beyond the original posts, if my count the other day was correct. 3 of those replies were in one thread, so all in all you've replied to 2 of your 9 or so threads. To me, because you don't reply, you're just trolling trying to get people to argue about something.

[TorJin]

OK this is going to be my LAST Xykon thread since some of you people are complaining about them:smallannoyed:.............

My only issue with your threads is that you create them, then ignore them. I think in all...what is it now, 9? threads that you've made, you've replied a grand total of 4 times beyond the original posts, if my count the other day was correct. 3 of those replies were in one thread, so all in all you've replied to 2 of your 9 or so threads. To me, because you don't reply, you're just trolling trying to get people to argue about something. You don't defend your views, you just throw them out there then ignore the thread.

[Friv]

I'm just saying that the personality of everyone is shaped by his life. There are plenty of evidence that genetics has little influence in that, it's life experience (cultural environment, relationship with family...) that counts. I'm not referring specifically to evilness or evil acts. I'm not saying there is a reason for every evil act of Xykon, I'm saying there is a reason if he's Evil with capital E instead of less evil, or neutral, or good.

I read that as "there are no reason behind Xykon's evil acts". In that I agree, Xykon enjoys doing evil acts for no reason, but there must be a reason if he's grown up like this, if he developed that personality instead of any other personality, and I was speculating about that.

You want to read over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_vs_nurture , I think.

In short, most evidence so far suggests that both the events that happen to us and our 'starting point', for lack of a better term, help to determine who we become. If you take two people and run them through the same set of events, you will not get identical personalities.

Xykon's starting point was one that was seriously warped. Therefore, no events could make him not evil. At best, they might have better controlled him.

[Ned the undead]

Someone ban this guy.

[FujinAkari]

There are plenty of evidence that genetics has little influence in that, it's life experience (cultural environment, relationship with family...) that counts.

Can you please cite some of this evidence? I can't think of a single accredited study in the last twenty years that supports this claim. This idea was very much in vogue in the 1920's - 1930's, but nearly all studies since the discovery of DNA sequencing have stressed the importance of your innate nature (DNA) and your upbringing, though scientists disagree as to which is more important, practically no one claims that DNA is irrelevant.

[SteveMB]

So at this point, Xykon knows that people are nicer to him after he kills them and raises them. So he starts seeing people as THINGS, not relating to them- and as far as my psychology classes taught me, that's one of the hallmarks of the psychopath.

I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms, but it makes sense. More generally, Xykon reminds me of the kid in "It's a Good Life" -- particularly since (minor spoiler for the very beginning of SoD)

his powers manifested at a very young age.

[King of Nowhere]

There are plenty of evidence that genetics has little influence in that, it's life experience (cultural environment, relationship with family...) that counts.
Can you please cite some of this evidence? I can't think of a single accredited study in the last twenty years that supports this claim. This idea was very much in vogue in the 1920's - 1930's, but nearly all studies since the discovery of DNA sequencing have stressed the importance of your innate nature (DNA) and your upbringing, though scientists disagree as to which is more important, practically no one claims that DNA is irrelevant.
From what I know, twins can be pretty different. Anyway, I didn't say DNA has no influence, but it is not enough to make someone as evil as Xykon. Certainly it helped, but it needed the back up of his childhood to turn him into the monster he is.
And surely the fact that he chooses to be evil, so he encouraged his evilness instead of fighting it, is important. Many factors concurred to reinforce his evilness.

[Paladin29]

I don´t think DNA have any relevance in a world of magic, gods and monsters.... however I must concede that it´d be intersting to analyze the DNA of a kobold (we can discover the "pathetism" gene) :smallbiggrin:

[Jayngfet]

I don´t think DNA have any relevance in a world of magic, gods and monsters.... however I must concede that it´d be intersting to analyze the DNA of a kobold (we can discover the "pathetism" gene) :smallbiggrin:

Sorcerers, Half whatevers, dragon disciples, planetouched, ect, ect...

[Occasional Sage]

OK this is going to be my LAST Xykon thread since some of you people are complaining about them:smallannoyed:.............but there's one thing I don't get, what made Xykon so vicious and cruel? He was raised in a normal household and yet he acted evil from the start....I seriously doubt that there was an event that caused him to become evil...if so someone please tell me. There's also the fact that he gives little regard to all plot points rather the ones that affect him the most(such as Right-Eye's betrayal).....he doesn't remember his own nemesis's name and he doesn't even give a damn about ruling the world even if he rules it, he's only doing it becuase he can and it's there........plus some of his acts would be expected from a jerk-ass PC, like killing an innocent bystander and taking his headwear for the hell of it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

Frankly, I find it irrelevant. Xykon is primarily a plot device, not an actual character. Redcloak gets development, motivations, dynamism, etc; Xykon... is just part of the landscape. He's horrific, he's comedic, he helps drive the plot, but he wasn't ever intended to be INTERESTING. I think (as has been pointed out previously) that understanding Xykon would ultimately weaken his ability to fill his role in the story.

[The Extinguisher]

Xykon is an actual character. He's a flat static character, but there is nothing wrong with that. I'll repeat. There is nothing wrong with a one-dimensional character who never changes throughout the story.

[krossbow]

Well, according to the personification of Elan's evil side ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html ) Evil is objective, and nurturing is completely irrellevant. Of course, this is ELAN'S Evil side, and thus probably an idiot, and he would seem to be contradicted by most of the circumstancial evidence (I.E., the two twins are vastly difference in alignments, and, were genetics a factor, Elan would at least have some evil tendencies).



However, going by the Evil sides information, one is not evil due to circumstances, or getting a bum rap, but rather is evil purely do to CHOICE. Which would seem to carry that Xycon cannot be evil for any other reason than he chose to be so.

[Echowinds]

There is nothing wrong with a 1-sided character in a plot driven, as long as it's not the main protagonist, who needs at least some character development to keep him interesting.

[The Extinguisher]

Not really. I've read a lot of really good works with a really one sided main character.

[paladinofshojo]

My only issue with your threads is that you create them, then ignore them. I think in all...what is it now, 9? threads that you've made, you've replied a grand total of I think 4 times beyond the original posts, if my count the other day was correct. 3 of those replies were in one thread, so all in all you've replied to 2 of your 9 or so threads. To me, because you don't reply, you're just trolling trying to get people to argue about something.

To be fair, I seriously don't know how to reply back since you guys destroy my standing point to a point where I have no way of defending myself:smallannoyed:

[Lupy]

Xykon is just evil. Being able to kill people and take their bodies warped him, and he is today.

[SteveMB]

My only issue with your threads is that you create them, then ignore them. I think in all...what is it now, 9? threads that you've made, you've replied a grand total of 4 times beyond the original posts, if my count the other day was correct. 3 of those replies were in one thread, so all in all you've replied to 2 of your 9 or so threads. To me, because you don't reply, you're just trolling trying to get people to argue about something. You don't defend your views, you just throw them out there then ignore the thread.

Starting a bunch of threads and not participating in them can be a form of disruptive behavior, but I really don't think it is in this case. Several of them have led to some interesting and insightful comments, and I haven't noticed them having any particular tendency to inspire flamage.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Pendell, you slightly missed my point. He didn't have a choice.

Do you honestly think that ANY child, any at all, would ever deny himself the opportunity to have others to do as he pleases? All kids are selfish, until a certain age. While it is true that in many cases, this selfishness is eventually gone by the time the kid hits a certain age mostly due to nurture... but as a kid, of course you were selfish. And from what I read of the spoilers of SoD (spoilers never bother me), he was a kid when he started doing necromancy.

I forgot the term where you technically have a choice, but it's not really a choice. Hobson's choice, I think. Yes, while he technically DID have a choice not to kill things, and then bring them back under his command, at his age and mindset... it was a no-brainer to him. Sure, we might condemn him, but we're all adults here, or at least, we're people who can understand the ramifications of such an act.

And I will be the first person to admit that as a child, if I could kill people and bring them back to obey my every whim, I would; and if you're honest with yourself, you would too. Granted, I also think that dictatorship is a good idea, but that's beside the point- as a kid you were selfish. Xykon was a kid, ergo he was selfish. And since he had the power to enforce said selfishness, it was never a choice for him. He couldn't NOT do it.

[pendell]

Lord Drayakir,

y'know what? Since there are a lot of SOD spoilers here, I'm going to put my response in the spoiler tags.



Pendell, you slightly missed my point. He didn't have a choice.

Do you honestly think that ANY child, any at all, would ever deny himself the opportunity to have others to do as he pleases? All kids are selfish, until a certain age.


While this is true, that age is most assuredly not 12. In my long and varied career, I have in fact done time as a schoolteacher. I can assure you from personal experience that children by that age are advanced enough to understand that killing people -- even if you can bring them back -- is Wrong.

I've known lots of 9-12 year olds. Some were model children who were unselfish, others are right pricks. I was one of the latter, but I'll make no excuses for that.

I'll give you Xykon's earlier adventure at age 4 was not indicative of evil necessarily. He doesn't have a formed moral conscience, and kids that age do hurt animals for fun because they don't know better.

But there's a big difference between 4 and 12. 12-year-old adults are not physically adults yet, but they can understand things like Do Not Steal, Do Not Lie, etc. And they've got enough life experience under their belt to know how that sort of things hurt other people.

That's why I peg Xykon's definitive shift to evil as age 12. He wasn't an especially nice child, but I'm willing to overlook that. Age 12, however, was the day when he willingly chose to murder not only a stranger in cold blood, but his parents as well. And by age 12, a normal child knows better.

When I was that age, I did indeed want to control the weather and turn people into animals. And I did indeed try to hypnotize my father to have him 'in my power' (heh ... that's where I learned the difference between real life and movie hypnotism, but that particularly funny story can wait for another day).

But even then I never wanted to turn the rest of the world into mindless slaves so that they could obey my every whim. I mean, sure it would have been nice to always get my way, and at that age maybe I wouldn't have seen the downside of that, but having a moaning corpse mumbling 'brains' isn't the same thing as a living, breathing human being. I think at that age, if I had an 'always get my way' button -- with no other ramifications -- I'd have gleefully pressed it. But if I knew the cost of that was having a living, breathing person or animal converted into an animated corpse, I'd have been a lot less quick to push it. I suspect that, after an object lesson or three as to the difference between an animated corpse and a living being, I'd choose the living being.




I forgot the term where you technically have a choice, but it's not really a choice. Hobson's choice, I think. Yes, while he technically DID have a choice not to kill things, and then bring them back under his command, at his age and mindset... it was a no-brainer to him.


At age 12? I think he very much did have a choice. There's a reason why accountability rituals such as the Bar Mitzvah happen right around that age in many cultures.

Any people who majored in actual child development want to chime in?

Ah, skip it. Let's ask Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial_development)



School Age (7-11 Years)


According to Allen and Marotz (2003), "children at this age are becoming more aware of themselves as individuals." They work hard at "being responsible, being good and doing it right."... They also get to form moral values, recognize cultural and individual differences and are able to manage most of their personal need and grooming with minimal assistance (Allen and Marotz, 2003). At this stage, children might express their independence by being disobedient, using back talk and being rebellious.

...

Adolescence (11-18 Years)

The adolescent is newly concerned with how he or she appears to others. Superego identity is the accrued confidence that the outer sameness and continuity prepared in the future are matched by the sameness and continuity of one's meaning for oneself, as evidenced in the promise of a career. The ability to settle on a school or occupational identity is pleasant. In later stages of Adolescence, the child develops a sense of sexual identity.


So we see that by adolescence a child has received moral instruction and is now on a quest to find his identity in life. We see that Xykon, having completed his apprenticeship, is offered a career and an identity as a superhero fighting evil. He instead makes the willing choice to take the opposite approach -- to be a willing supervillain. And the rest of his life flows from that.

Other characters -- such as Haley starshine -- struggle through adolescent identity crises as well, but Haley came out of it as a neutral rogue. Xykon made his choice at age 12 and never changed it.

So again we get back to the issue of choice. Absent some information indicating Xykon suffered psychiatric problems, I would say that he was fully morally developed by the time he hit age 12, with a potential for good and evil, that he chose evil, and never repented of it. I contend my thesis stands. After all, I read the CD stuff on teh internet, it MUST be true!!! :)



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Like I said, I haven't read SoD yet, so I guess I'll concede for now. But don't forget, power is tempting for EVERYBODY.

[pendell]

Won't argue that last. But I don't think you'll regret reading SOD. It is a good, good book.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[EvilJames]

Someone ban this guy.

That seems an unnecessarily harsh response for using the boards as they are intended:smalleek:


To be fair, I seriously don't know how to reply back since you guys destroy my standing point to a point where I have no way of defending myself:smallannoyed:

Well you ask questions that seem to assume that something has to be one way or another without any sort of deviation. Xykon doesn't have to justify his actions, nor does he have to have a specific reason to be evil. Even in a black and white morality system like D&D the characters don't have to be black and white.

But that being said I see no reason why you shouldn't continue asking your questions and making your posts. As has been said it's not very disruptive and no flame wars have been started from it. It's just that your confusion in these matter is somewhat perplexing to us. But if it helps clear things up and allows you to understand the characters better, then by all means ask away.:smallcool:

[Eric]

I read that as "there are no reason behind Xykon's evil acts". In that I agree, Xykon enjoys doing evil acts for no reason, but there must be a reason if he's grown up like this, if he developed that personality instead of any other personality, and I was speculating about that.

What is the reason for the stoat to kill chickens in a farm that it has no intention of eating?

There is none.

So again, why does there need to be a reason for Xykon to be evil? Surely the only reason needed is he's a complete and utter barstand.

Was Hitler turned to the Dark Side because his art teacher told him he wasn't very good at it? Or was he just a nasty SOB?

Do you have any phsychology (not pop psychology, please) that says there must always be a reason for bad behaviour that makes the dooer of bad not responsible?

[Eric]

Pendell, you slightly missed my point. He didn't have a choice.

...

it was never a choice for him. He couldn't NOT do it.

How?

I had plenty of capability to kill my gran's budgie.

Guess what? I didn't do it.

I had plenty of changes to take my sister's food.

Guess what? I didn't do it.


Xykon as a kid didn't have to join Professor X. He didn't have to kill him either. He didn't have to direct the zombies to kill his parents.

He did because he chose to.

By doing so, he had to actively kill the wheelchair guy. He had to know that he would have to leave home there and then. He knew his parents would be forever unable to do chores like cook him food, provide him clothes. He would have to change his life completely.

Heck, maybe he killed grannie. If she'd died properly, they'd have buried her. And probably not in her day clothes with pinny, but in her sunday best. So it's likely he actively killed granny and then raised her from the dead. Meaning he had to HIDE granny from his parents in the cupboard.

Direct activity that he had to choose to undertake.

If he'd had "no choice" he wouldn't have seen the need to hide his actions. He wouldn't have seen the need to force himself to have to look after himself.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Ah, Eric, but you didn't do those things because you were afraid of punishment.

And as for hiding stuff- RL psychopaths hide their murderous nature as well- but they're just that, murderers without remorse, and slightly super-human powers.

[Selene]

See, now I would've gone for he didn't kill because then he would be surrounded by stinky gross undead people who do nothing but make more stinky gross undead people and moan about brains. But maybe that's a girl thing.

[EvilJames]

Ah, Eric, but you didn't do those things because you were afraid of punishment.

And as for hiding stuff- RL psychopaths hide their murderous nature as well- but they're just that, murderers without remorse, and slightly super-human powers.

That's a fairly presumptuous thing to claim about some one you don't know (unless you do know each other in which case, never mind) You can't really claim to know the reasoning for someone doing or not doing something when they were a child. I know there have been things I didn't do because of a fear of punishment, but for the most part I didn't do things like that because I didn't want to.

[Eric]

Ah, Eric, but you didn't do those things because you were afraid of punishment.

No I bloody well didn't refrain from that for that reason. You bloody well take that back!

I didn't do them because killing my nan's budgie didn't even occurr to me. The only way you could accuse me of this sort of thing is if you yourself do it. Do you sit there plotting the death of others and then go "well, better not, I'd get jailed for it. I'll have a twinkie instead"?

Some people, considered sociopaths or psychopaths DO think like that. The worse kind don't consider the downside: if they get the impulse they act on it. They get caught quickly and put into a mental institute.

Xykon acts on his impulses because he chooses to.

[good_lookin_gus]

"I'd hate to advocate larceny, mass-murder, necromancy, and lichdom; but they've always worked for me!"


Did I spoiler this correctly?
C'mon; being evil has rarely gotten him into trouble. When it has, he was able to escape by being MORE evil. In 2d4 pages Rich revealed Xykon to be a bad seed that wasn't nipped in the bud. That sated my curiosity. What more do you want?

[Selene]

You have to put a /spoiler in the closing brackets. The opening ones are right

Spoiler Text Here

[Raging Gene Ray]

I didn't do them because killing my nan's budgie didn't even occur to me.

Xykon acts on his impulses because he chooses to.

If you never have the impulse, you never have to make a choice. Impulses are like thoughts that just pop into your head, you cannot consciously choose to have them. Free will can be a correctional factor that allows you to analyze your impulses and decide which you should and shouldn't act on, but some peoples' brains have been shaped by either genetics or experience to gravitate towards certain types of impulses.

[King of Nowhere]

Originally Posted by King of Nowere
I read that as "there are no reason behind Xykon's evil acts". In that I agree, Xykon enjoys doing evil acts for no reason, but there must be a reason if he's grown up like this, if he developed that personality instead of any other personality, and I was speculating about that.
What is the reason for the stoat to kill chickens in a farm that it has no intention of eating?

There is none.

So again, why does there need to be a reason for Xykon to be evil? Surely the only reason needed is he's a complete and utter barstand.

Was Hitler turned to the Dark Side because his art teacher told him he wasn't very good at it? Or was he just a nasty SOB?

Do you have any phsychology (not pop psychology, please) that says there must always be a reason for bad behaviour that makes the dooer of bad not responsible?
When did I say that???? Reason is different from justification. Saying that Xykon is evil for a reason is completely different than saying that Xykon has a justification to be evil, and it is even different than saying that he was scarred as a chil or such.


What is the reason for the stoat to kill chickens in a farm that it has no intention of eating?
That it is an animal and follows its instincts, maybe?

Was Hitler turned to the Dark Side because his art teacher told him he wasn't very good at it? Or was he just a nasty SOB?
Hitler was a bit madman. But I don't think he would have developed his hatred for the jews if it weren't common belief, at the time, that they caused germany to lose first world war.


So again, why does there need to be a reason for Xykon to be evil? Surely the only reason needed is he's a complete and utter barstand.
It would still be a reason.
Anyway, I don't have searched through psicological studies, but I'm pretty sure that things happens for a reason (again, don't see in this word meanings that it don't necessarily have). Otherwise, why we teach children if that isn't going to influence them?

[Eric]

If you never have the impulse, you never have to make a choice. Impulses are like thoughts that just pop into your head, you cannot consciously choose to have them.

And?

How does this relate to Xykon's evil? He has these impulses, they are almost 100% impulses that are BAD and he acts on them.

Evil.

Chooses.

PS, King OF Nowhere, why would you care if Xykon has no choice if it were not to say it wasn't his fault? You don't have an answer to the stoat and therfore just ignore it. That aint good enough.

Hitler through Goebells had come to realise that the way to get people to do what you want them to is to give them an enemy who isn't part of them. Jews. Or Communits, Russians, Slavs, Gypsies, ...

And yes, being a complete and utter is a reason. It is why he chooses to be evil. Not because he has no choice but to do evil, but because he likes it. He's a barsteward.

[Alex Warlorn]

I think once he discovered that "reanimating dead things to do what I want them to" was his nifty new power, he was pretty much going to turn out evil. It would take an extraordinary individual to possess that ability and *not* abuse it in ways that would horrify most sane human beings--and Xykon was never the brightest bulb in the bank.

Indeed. Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, and Xykon had power that would blow the minds of any child.

Even the worst people have something dear to them, I wonder if he keep a giant skeletal zombie beast dog monster around somewhere as another ace in the hole.

Xykon is a dead murderer and should be eliminated at ALL costs. But at least he doesn't make excuses for what he is.

[Raging Gene Ray]

And?

How does this relate to Xykon's evil? He has these impulses, they are almost 100% impulses that are BAD and he acts on them.

Not because he has no choice but to do evil, but because he likes it. He's a barsteward.

I was agreeing with you, but also pointing out the difference between impulse and choice. Xykon had no choice about having the impulses, but free will enabled him to make a conscious decision to act on them...and he chose to do so.

Some people are just the type that never have those impulses in the first place.

[paladinofshojo]

Indeed. Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, and Xykon had power that would blow the minds of any child.

Even the worst people have something dear to them, I wonder if he keep a giant skeletal zombie beast dog monster around somewhere as another ace in the hole.

Xykon is a dead murderer and should be eliminated at ALL costs. But at least he doesn't make excuses for what he is.

I think coffee was the only thing dear to him.....now that it's gone he's got nothing left to live for (literally)...........

[Eric]

I think coffee was the only thing dear to him.....now that it's gone he's got nothing left to live for (literally)...........

Just as well he's undead, then.

D'Oh!

PS Raging Gene Ray, sorry,sometimes what you read is based on what you've read before and not what this one message seems to say.